Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Dame Stephanie 'Steve' Shirley, Make-up for Men & the benefits of working with Clay

Episode Date: December 11, 2020

Dame Stephanie Shirley – always known as Steve – tells us about her work revolutionising the workplace and as a major philanthropist. On Tuesday, Leicester University are launching their 'Student Sex Worker Policy and Toolkit'. We hear from Professor Teela Sanders, a Professor of Criminology at Leicester University who explains why she is leading this initiative and the feminist commentator and journalist Sarah Ditum gives us her view.Are men beginning to turn to cosmetics to improve their appearance in the same way as women? Danny Gray, who created the WarPaint make-up range for men believes this to be the case and the make-up artist, Lisa Eldridge, author of Face Paint: the History of Make-Up gives her thoughts.What’s the best way to approach shyness in your child? We hear from Nadia Finer who runs an online programme for shy 7-14 year olds who want to feel braver, and more able to speak up and join in. Is it time to end the idea that being in a couple is the superior way to live? We hear from Professor Sasha Roseneil the author of a new book, The Tenacity of the Couple-Norm.And we discuss the therapeutic benefits of clay with Kate Malone, one of the UK’s leading potters and ceramicists – and Charlotte Clarkson, who’s been getting the chance to try out the medium at her local youth centre.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Sarah Crawley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, good afternoon. Welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. In this week's programme, we'll discuss why it's time maybe to end the notion that being in a couple is the superior way to live. And we'll hear from the formidable Dame Stephanie Shirley, IT entrepreneur, on why she decided to take up the more masculine name of Steve. I started work at the age of 18. And as soon as I started to make it clear that I really had ambitions for myself and for other women,

the more implacably the men tried to freeze me out. Dame Steve Shirley, more from her later. We'll talk about men and cosmetics. Are they turning increasingly to cosmetics to improve their appearance? And shyness, what's the best way to deal with shyness in your child? It's really important to emphasise that shy people are not broken. We don't actually need fixing. 57% of the British population are shy.

So this outgoing ideal is almost a kind of artificial construct. And there'll be more about shyness later in the programme. First of all, Leicester University has an event next week. It's launching a student sex worker policy and toolkit. Well, what is it and why is it needed? In a moment, you'll get the view of Sarah Dittum, the feminist commentator and journalist. But first, here's Professor Teela Sanders, a professor of criminology at Leicester University and somebody who's leading the initiative. Student sex work has always existed.

This is not a new phenomenon at all. I've been researching with the sex industry for the past 20 years, all different types of projects in brothels, in lap dancing clubs. Students have always been there as part of the sex industry. So we have some research findings which we can build on. it's the time really to do something useful with those in terms of higher education. As you'll know, student welfare, student health and safety is really quite pivotal. We know that from this year. And this is an area where it often gets swept under the carpet. Universities don't like to talk about it very often, but it's really important to think about the students who do engage in sex work and are taking education, taking university degrees. Okay, now I think this is based on research that was done, what, five years ago at a Welsh university. What proportion of students in that research were found to be doing sex work of any kind? It's around four percent and it was obviously female,

male, trans, that's an important piece of research, the Swansea research there that flagged up male sex work as well. It's very difficult to find numbers in relation to any type of sex work or sex work market because the numbers are very fluid. People moving in and out of the sex industry all the time. People may not define themselves as sex workers, particularly if they're doing webcamming or other types of online services that are not direct contact. So it's really difficult to get an actual handle of numbers. But we know that there's always students who are working across the country and essentially engaging in sex work to get themselves through university. Right. I mean, you've mentioned that there are some male sex workers and indeed

trans sex workers, but surely the overwhelming majority are female. Definitely. Yes, we know certainly that the overwhelming majority are women. So this is certainly a gender issue in relation to thinking about supporting young women who are in education, overseas students as well who come to the UK to study, often they can find themselves being approached by websites, for example, or engaging and signing up to websites, not really sure about what they're doing. There is no doubt though, Tila, that many people will find this deeply depressing. You're saying it's an acknowledgement of a reality rather than something that is, frankly, an area of life most people would never want their student offspring to be involved with.

For sure. But we have to remember that students have always looked for part time work. Yeah. But, Teela, with the greatest respect, there's part time work and there's sex work. They're not the same. But the sex markets have changed. When we talk about sex work people think direct personal services escorting um the sex markets have changed rapidly over the last 10 years lots of people working online lots of people doing non-direct um sexual services uh we know the rise in things like only fans and webcam in those markets that are much more appealing because they're online, they're flexible. Some people would say they were, quote, safer. But we know that during the course of the pandemic, that sort of sex work has become more popular. Those platforms have become much more successful.

But there's also been an increase in stalking, for example. And some of the people involved in that kind of work are actually more vulnerable as a result of doing it, aren't they? Definitely. We work with an organisation called the Revenge Porn Helpline, and they deal with image abuse. So that's when people put images on or create content and they're abused. And they've worked with us very clearly on the student sex work toolkits for staff and for students. And they're very concerned about the numbers of students who are being manipulated because their image is online. So I think the point to say is, yes, it's out there. There was lots more to be done in terms of safety

and thinking how people can work safer. But I think the time is now to take this into higher education to say what is your duty of care as a set of institutions that have students yeah again I mean some people some people would say emphatically Tila that a duty of care in an environment like a university would be to do everything you can to deter any student from doing this sort of work well I think the point is really that sex work is generally legal it's a legal activity between two consenting adults. And universities are not there to give moral judgment in relation to what people do.

No, but they are there. They're all about aspiration. That's why people aim for university. It's about something different, something better. But we're not talking about sex work as a job here. We're talking about supporting students who are doing sex work in the university environment. So we're talking about inclusive learning. We're talking about not discriminating against somebody. We're talking about not being judgmental. If you find out your student is doing sex work or they've been outed or they're being blackmailed, often they will come to university staff. University staff don't necessarily know what to do. That is Teela Sanders. Let's get the view of Sarah Dighton, who's a feminist commentator and journalist. Now, Teela is pretty adamant there. It's all about providing necessary support, no judgment, just support. What do you say to that? I think it's very important that universities are able to

engage with the fact that students are getting involved in the sex industry. And I think it's completely inadequate for universities to do that if it's not from the perspective that the sex industry is enormously harmful to women and has a really toxic influence on men as well yes it's quite troubling to hear that especially troubling in what respect well i think like the nature of the economy means that students really are going to be likely to turn to um sex industry more than ever before you know the service industry is under huge pressure. And that's always been traditionally where you would go to for a part time job. So things like escorting or OnlyFans or sugar daddy websites are going to seem increasingly appealing. And if universities

aren't giving the message that these are not safe, you know, empowering, secure ways to make money. They are actually exploitative sites of abuse, dangerous things for young women to get involved with. And I think it is really worth emphasising that you're talking about young women who are 18 to early 20s, which is not an age necessarily where you are fully equipped to make all the decisions about things that might affect you for the rest of your adult life. Well, your digital footprint is going to be ever more important, isn't it? There's no doubt about that. And your anonymity isn't guaranteed anymore. It's so, so troubling that things like OnlyFans or like webcaming are perceived as less harmful, but they actually expose the women who engage in them to, you know, potential lifelong blackmail and re-traumatization.

So there was a absolutely chilling piece in the New York Times, I think last week by Nick Kristof, about the way that Pornhub was reposting, constantly reposting images of abuse that women or images that women had, you know, consensually given to sexual partners. Or not necessarily on OnlyFans, but had exchanged, you know, thinking that they were secure, thinking that they would be something that only existed ephemerally and then they exist on porn hub forever and ever and ever essentially and you know these are you know something that may have seemed like nothing to send a picture that just seemed fine in the moment of doing it can be something that actually comes to represent a period of abuse distress you know humiliation in lots of ways and is used against women. And if you're not able to actually, you know, talk about the real life consequences that this stuff can have, then universities are really letting their students down. The thoughts of Sarah Dittum and before that you heard from Professor Tila Sanders. An email from

Sarah who says, I'm a journalist. I made a programme on this subject for Channel 4 in the 90s. I was astonished at how easy it was to find students who were supporting themselves with part-time work in the sex industry. I started my research by just walking into a strip club in Soho and I met three young women straight away stripping in a dingy basement in front of old men. What I learned was that for many students in this line of work, stripping often led to escort work and then sometimes to prostitution. Many of the students I met seemed to have poor mental health as a result of their anxieties about what they were doing. You can always contact the programme, of course, via our website, or you can contact us too on social media at BBC Women's Hour.

The incredible IT entrepreneur Dame Stephanie Shirley was on the programme this week. It's such a privilege to speak to her. She is also known as Steve, and she's now 87. It's no exaggeration to say that she played a real part in revolutionising the workplace for women. She started a software business called Freelance Programmers in 1962. She's now a major philanthropist in demand for public speaking and she often starts her talks by giving a version of her own story of coming to the UK on the Kindertransport in 1939, one of 10,000 Jewish children fleeing Nazi Germany. She's been making these public speeches for a long, long time. So what is it about what she says that entrances her audiences so much? Mainly, I am making people think about what sort of person they are, what sort of person do they

want to be? How can they do things better, how can they be the best person that they can be and that seems to resonate with people and I mean I don't do it deliberately but that's what people say, they always say I'm inspirational. But your life has been one in many ways of great sadness, of towering achievement, but also one that has, well, you were always very honest about things that have gone wrong. You yourself have had bouts of relatively poor mental health, haven't you? Things have been tough for you at times. Things were very tough, but it wasn't just that life was, when my son died, for example example I was certainly very depressed and not functioning for some months but the real mental health issue goes right back to the childhood that you've mentioned to come to England in 1939 as an unaccompanied child refugee is such a traumatic thing that it has driven my life.

It continues to drive my life. I know that I need to justify why I was saved. I need to make each day worth living. And that gives a sort of pressure that is nothing to do with what's happening this week or that I broke my leg last year. These are nasty things that happen in life. But you never know what life holds for you. And mine has been quite traumatic at times.

It's such a burden psychologically. You said there you feel you have to justify why you were saved. That's I mean, that's I can't even begin to understand what that must feel like. Oh, it really has already a name for the psychiatrists. They talk about survivor guilt, the guilt that having survived when so many other people died at that time, including a million children. And sadly, it seems to stay with you.

The depression has gone because since I've moved into philanthropy and spend my life on, I don't like to say doing good, it's a horrid expression, but trying to make the world a better place, then I really feel happy, something worthwhile to get up for each morning and although I'm not going to be on Book of the Week, I'm very proud of the things that I've written since I nominally retired. Yes, I mean, it is very much a nominal retirement, yours, I think. Can we go back? Because last week, I was talking to a couple of young women, tech entrepreneurs themselves, Rav Bumbra and June Angelides. And when I said that you were coming on the programme this week, there was immediate recognition and, frankly,

a sort of awe for you and for your life story and achievements. So take us back to 1962 and the company you founded. What were you doing, with whom and for whom? I was doing a very modest sort of mathematical clerk type of job and coming up against the so-called glass ceiling over and over and over again Jane and I eventually got sick and tired of it and sort of said I am going to set up an organisation that is the sort of organisation that I would like to work for, that is female friendly, if you like, though I didn't use that term at the time, that is positive about

the way in which the world is going, and definitely something that I would want for myself and for other women. And that's precisely what I did. I set up a little company, spending less than £100 in today's money, to write software, as it happened, which was my discipline. I'm a mathematician turned computer buff. And thoroughly enjoyed creating a new sort of organisation, something that was flexible in all its ways, flexible whether you could work full-time, part-time,

whether you could work from home, whether you could work when you were travelling, whether you could work summers only, winter, all forms of flexibility, including having a cafeteria of benefits so that people could say how they were remunerated for the work that they did. And it became important because doing that made management concentrate on work done rather than the time that people spent in an office.

And that's very relevant today as we have a lot of working from home. Well, we have a colossal amount, don't we? And the emphasis in the past has been on, what's it called, presenteeism. You have to be seen to be present. But in fact, who cares if you do the work at 10 to 3 in the morning? If you get it done, that's fine, isn't it? But you have to be able to measure work. And that's what some people can't do.

And so you revert to, well, she wasn't in the office. She was late coming in, this sort of thing. It's a big step forward now. We've gone further in the technical world in the last few weeks, few months, I suppose, than we have in the previous 10 years. But that's what's so fascinating about you, because I think you saw the potential for something I think you called vision phones long, long ago, didn't you? I was demonstrating vision phones in 1987. So I must have been working on them in 1986. Science, the culture of accepting science is very slow.

And although people think this is an overnight happening, it has been coming very slowly. The science moves forward. Shall we do this? The culture moves forward. Can we do it in a different way? No, no, no, that doesn't work. We'll try something else. and gradually it does take decades and culture is like that which is what

what makes it so stable and to what degree uh were you dismissed not taken seriously enough early in your career because of your sex i can hardly describe how alien the work environment was. Women were expected to be the secretaries, to make the tea, to be very much secondary type employees. And I started work at the age of 18. And as soon as I started to make it clear that I really had ambitions for myself and for other women, the more implacably the men tried to freeze me out. rather than the double feminine of Stephanie Shirley. And I've been Steve ever since. And that helped to disguise until people actually saw me walking into the room. But it disguised the... It's quite important to have anonymity sometimes.

And if we're working with an organisation trying to get a more diverse workforce, we have to measure diversity. We have to record it. We have to publicise it. And that's the only way in which we can actually change the culture. And it takes ages. I mean, I've been talking about women's opportunities for 50 odd years. Yes, 50 years is a long time.

I've been on Woman's Hour for 13 years. There you go. And sometimes it does feel as though we're saying the same things, having the same conversations. Did you ever feel like, frankly, you were losing your fruit about the number of times you had to say the same thing, sometimes to the same people? I really was disappointed how slow the women's movement was.

I've never called myself a feminist, perhaps indeed, but certainly not in word. I'm a humanist and I really believe that every single person, male and female, can make a positive difference in the world. And that's what I try to do. Dame Stephanie Steve Shirley and a collection of her speeches, so to speak, is out now. Now, is makeup getting more popular for men? The makeup artist Lisa Eldridge, author of Face Paint, The History of Makeup, and Danny Gray, creator of the War Paint range of cosmetics for men, joined me in the Women's Hour studio this week. I asked Danny why he'd created his brand of make-up. I actually suffer with something called body dysmorphia,

so I effectively obsess about the way I look, which is a mental illness. And the reason I do that is because when I was 12 years old, I was bullied because my appearance, my ears were sort of right angles to my head. So growing up from my teenage years, I would get spots, spots not necessarily acne but for me that was a massive issue so I turned to my sister she gave me a bit of concealer and I honestly couldn't believe the impact on what a product could do and it gave me so much confidence but growing up for 20 years I've been wearing it every single day but for me I couldn't really find a brand that I felt related to me as a man something like I could go into a store and feel confident in buying.

And for the education for me, I thought women can, I don't want to say overcomplicate it, but I just would use it in a very simple way. So I never thought there was a brand out there that related to me, so I wanted to create one. And your use of concealer as a young lad, it was a shield, effectively. It just made you feel better about yourself and led you to leading a more constructive life simple as that 100 i think i'm just a massive believer in guys being able to use tools regardless of what they are that make you feel better so you

know i've had a hair transplant i didn't really need one but because my body's more for that option was there for me i took it and it really made me feel better so it's just about using tools really just to be clear then the body dysmorphia is still with you that's not going away definitely but i'm learning to manage it a lot better now but you know growing up through our teenage years it was it was a massive thing for me so get a bit of makeup on this you really helped me deal with it it's quite difficult actually to find out how much the market in terms of men's makeup is worth in the uk but we know things are changing have you got any idea how much it might be worth yeah there's a lot of stats been flying about at the

minute because it is growing very very quickly but there was a stat uh last year about worldwide it's four billion currently and estimated to grow substantially over the next five years i don't think anyone really knows because i think we're at a tipping point now where two years ago when i founded the brand no one talks about men's makeup at all and then since then we've been on like 500 press articles i've been on radio shows like this which never happened before so i just think we'll be at a tipping point where eventually well it's okay if guys want to use it then use it so yeah i mean i wouldn't normally mention sexuality but you you happen you happen to be straight i am yes yeah i mean is that what am I wrong to mention it? Is it relevant?

I think it is relevant, but we've got a huge amount of gay customers and I think all I'm trying to say, there were probably straight guys out there before who never even think about trying makeup because of a stigma attached to it and they would never get to see the benefit of it. So, yeah, we're just trying to open up to everyone

and just say, whoever you are, regardless of sexuality, just use it if it makes you feel better. Yeah. I mean, the name is quite war paint. I mean, there is. Well, you know what I'm saying? Well, yeah. Do you know, actually, that came about because I watched a TV programme about eight years ago and a woman actually said, I'm going to put more war paint on before I go out. It's been synonymous for women using it. And I was like, that's the name. Yeah. Lisa, let's go back to the time when I remember new romantics for example I guess that was the first time watching top of the pops seeing men in makeup that I thought oh crikey that I didn't know that could happen but actually I just didn't know my

history because it happened years and years ago oh yeah I mean globally men have been wearing makeup for thousands of years for so many different reasons, ritualistic purposes, religion, like you say, war paint to scare the opposition, so many reasons, and self-expression. And I think if we, most people think of the ancient Egyptians as being the sort of first major make-up moment for men, and it was men, women, children, everyone wore make-up and it wasn't a divisive thing the way it really is now. In fact, you know, it still is.

And there was a joy in that. It wasn't only used for protecting the eyes and the body, but there's evidence of trends, of provenance of products, you know, getting your coal from a certain place. And there was a joy in it. And it was a self-expressive thing to do. And I think we also think very much in Europe of the 18th century and the Georgian period when everyone wore makeup. Well, hang on, did everyone or was it just wealthy people?

It was mainly wealthy people, absolutely. But there was definitely a change happening and regular people could get access to very basic versions of makeup and powder and rouge and things like that, which weren't that expensive so there's definitely a change happening but unfortunately for men that was almost the beginning of the end for makeup because post-French revolution and to a certain extent American revolution makeup was out after that because because it was associated with the regime it was it was considered frivolous, not manly anymore. And that was the end of makeup in Europe anyway.

Did you think people of your generation, Danny, knew that in fact men always used to wear makeup once? It was just not an issue at all? Yeah, I think as you've touched on, I don't even think men stopped wearing makeup to a point. There's so many customers who come to us now and saying, you know, I stole my behalf i i've tried it and so if you look back 60 years ago when makeup started absolutely massive the likes of mac and everyone all they uh promoted to was

women you know glamorous they dressed up at home and men went to work and i think that was just ingrained in everyone and if you look at it now the amount of customers come to us saying well thank you because i've been doing it behind my mate's back, and now you're opening up a world that I can do it comfortably. So it's not like we're creating men's makeup. It's just letting guys feel comfortable to do it. But how wide is your range? Is it just concealer, or do you go, have you got, I don't know,

stuff for contouring and all that sort of thing? No, so we use real simple products in a simple way. So it's tinted moisturisers, foundation, concealer, some powders, but we don't do any lipsticks or eyeliner, but not saying main... But why not? But not saying main can't, it's just we, a lot of guys who come onto our website, it's probably the first time they've ever thought about using makeup. So if, we're not saying we're scaring them away,

but sometimes that can be very complicated, like contouring, where we just say about simple products, using a simple way to even out your skin, to give you confidence. And that's a great way to get them on not saying we won't go into lipstick or eyeliner but in a minute that's what we offer and is it the zoom effect yeah i look someone said it to me the other day actually i didn't really think about it to be honest but now with zoom i didn't even think about it but you're looking at yourself as much as anyone else and i think that's had a massive impact on people actually thinking oh actually, actually, I might want to try something to give me a bit more confidence, especially with Zoom.

So I do think that's had an impact. Well, do you welcome all this, Lisa? The fact that, I mean, should women welcome men wearing makeup? Does it suggest progress for all of us? Or does it mean that men are now feeling as rotten about their appearances as perhaps women have always been encouraged to feel? I don't really want Danny, or anyone else really, to feel they have to wear make-up.

I think what's nice about this moment now in history is that for the first time, I think, for women and men, there is the opportunity of choice. If you think back, there's always been either one look that we have to all follow, or there's been... It's always been very, very divisive, to all follow or there's been there's you know it's always been very very divisive and I think that social media has definitely helped because you're able to almost find your tribe if you want to cover a spot as a teenage boy like you say you

can find other boys who do it and maybe they've made a tutorial you know and it makes you feel relaxed and comfortable but the main thing is that there needs to be choice for men and women. Makeup is there. It can be a tool that can just help you to feel more confident, just to cover an under eye, you know, dark circle and a spot. Or it can be something to be very self-expressive with and really, you know, create looks or don't use it at all. You know, there should be those options. Yeah. I can't ask you, Lisa, to speak for all womankind, but do you think women welcome men caring more about their appearance? I think probably they do if it's a case of, this word self-care, whatever that means, but if it means looking after your skin and being able to embrace how you feel. Women have been able to cover a spot, you know, for such a long time and I think if if that's something that

will help men why not men have always cared about their appearance to some extent so it's not new just because we're saying you can use makeup now all of a sudden they're gonna think oh I better better look how I how I feel I think men have always been worried about having acne spots dark under eyes they've just effectively not been able to do anything about it haven't been allowed to yes let's just give men a choice and let them decide if they want to use it or not. Danny Gray and Lisa Eldridge on the subject of men and make-up. Now this is an important one and you may just have missed out on these conversations this week on the programme.

On Women's Hour we discussed the High Court ruling of last week saying that children under the age of 16 with gender dysphoria are unlikely to be able to give informed consent to treatment with puberty blocking drugs. On Thursday's programme, we heard from a mother we're calling her Jen, whose 14-year-old, born a boy, had been due to start assessment at the Tavistock for puberty blockers this week. I mean, she would have taken the blockers two years ago because it's a simple equation for her. But for us, obviously, we've educated ourselves about it and had long discussions with as many people as we can find

who know about these things. And now she thinks that's it. She's not going to get them. And she's expressed that her worst fear is to have a male puberty and to develop all those male characteristics which are irreversible and that she would feel she couldn't find it difficult to leave the house, would be terrified of being recognised and misgendered. She already struggles a bit with her body and is very, you know, if she's having a shower, she's in and out as quick as she can. She doesn't, you know, she's not really in

her body. She just is terrified, I think is the only way to put it. That was a mother we're calling Jen. And on Friday, we talked to a woman we're calling Nicola, who has a 16-year-old, born a girl, who's been on the waiting list for the Tavistock for almost two years. Nicola, who has a 16-year-old, born a girl, who's been on the waiting list for the Tavistock for almost two years. Nicola, though, has very serious concerns about her child taking puberty-blocking drugs. Here's a clip. Puberty itself is a bodily process that teenagers go through, and it's not just a physical process. It's a psychological and behavioural process too, that their interactions with others, that their relationships, their friendships, all of those feelings contribute

towards their development of their identity. And I do think that that's very important. I can understand when people who have children who are very distressed, as my daughter has been very distressed, are looking for a way to instantly take away that distress. But I think it's looking at the long-term consequences that are unknown that worry me. And I don't want my child to be put onto an experimental pathway where they don't know whether this is going to be the solution. That's a mother we're calling Nicola. And really, those conversations do need to be heard.

They deserve to be heard in their entirety. And if you would like to hear them, then go to BBC Sounds and find Thursday's and Friday's programme from this week. Are you in a couple? Are you single? If you're single, do you sometimes feel that other people might regard you as somewhat inferior? Well, that might well be down to the tenacity of the couple norm. Academics from four different countries have got together to explore the idea that really, across the world, living as part of a couple is still the norm and still a sort of social ideal. Professor Sasha Roseneill is the lead author.

She's Professor of Interdisciplinary Social Science and Dean of the Faculty of Social and Historical Sciences at UCL. She looked at four countries, the UK, Bulgaria, Portugal and Norway. I asked her why. We wanted to make sure that we covered Europe in its diversity. So that meant choosing a country from the former communist bloc. I chose Bulgaria basically because I had a fantastic PhD student, Maria Stoilever, who I thought would be really good to work on the project. I wanted a Scandinavian or Nordic welfare state. And Norway was the country because I actually had a part time job in Norway at the time. I love the practical reasons for all this.

There's always a practicality to doing research. I wanted a southern European Catholic former dictatorship state. So that was a choice between Portugal, Spain, Italy. Chose Portugal again. I had a fantastic PhD student from Portugal, and then the UK, because obviously I'm based in the UK. So much has changed, but still, it would seem globally, people are focused on coupledom. Now, why do you think that is?

A huge amount has changed. And that was what we found in our research. Over the last 40 years, there have been really, really significant changes in intimate citizenship, as we call it, in the ways in which people live their intimate lives and the laws and policies that surround intimate life. So we've seen processes of equalization between men and women or depatriarchalization. So the kind of the differences and the power differences between men and women have been diminished. There have been really significant processes of liberalisation, so divorce has become much more easy to access. Same-sex sexuality has been decriminalised.

There's been a huge pluralisation in how people live intimate lives. There is a but, absolutely. So there's all these changes. But amidst those changes, what's become ever clearer is that the couple remains at the kind of heart of what is expected of adults. It's what is seen to be a good intimate life. Okay, let me just bring in the listeners. Here's one who says, I'm 28. I'm exploring polyamory with a new partner I love very much. I know that a person can love more than one person at a time and I don't want anything more from my partner.

So I don't care what else he has to give someone else. But we are taught that monogamy is the highest form of love and respect and security. And it can be very painful to let that go. That's one experience. Another listener says, I have been married to the same man for 50 years, so coupledom does seem normal to me. However, we didn't live together before we were married and although we live together now, there have been long periods when we haven't lived together during our marriage.

And that's interesting. That's just a slice of what you might call a normal life. But the idea of two people heterosexually living together without incident, without pause for 50 years isn't really the norm at all, is it, Sasha? It isn't anymore. The majority of people in all four of the countries we looked at, adults, do live in a couple based household. But it's an increasingly marginal majority. And if you look at people across their lifetimes, they spend increasing amounts of their time outside couples. People are coupling later, their couple relationships are less stable, they're choosing to do different things within the couple. So as the person you were just talking

about suggested, more and more people actually have time living apart from the person that they're part of a couple with, you know, because of work, because of kind of other demands in their lives. Often when they've recoupled after a previously broken relationship, they don't want to merge households. So living apart relationships are increasingly common. So people are living coupledom in increasingly diverse ways, as well as more and more people living outside the kind of standard conventional couple. Do you also get people who don't understand people who aren't in couples, Sasha, and feel somewhat, well, threatened by it? What do you think? Yes, and I think we've seen that quite a lot during the pandemic,

that there's been kind of concern expressed for people who don't have a couple, you know, are not part of a couple, aren't living with someone. Sometimes pity. I think it has been particularly difficult for people who are living alone during the pandemic. Loneliness and isolation has been intensified. We interviewed people across the four countries, did really long biographical interviews with them. And there was a lot of experience of shame for people who were living outside the conventional couple. Do you think shame is not too strong a word then? Real shame? It really surprised us. You know, we thought that that would have changed,

but we were very struck by the shame that, I mean, not everyone, absolutely not everyone. But there were many stories that we were told of people experiencing quite profound shame about their relationships ending, about divorce, about breakdown of relationships. And sometimes about not having been able to find a stable couple relationship. It wasn't something they talked about widely. You know, no one really wants to admit to it. But we were really struck by that. We certainly never expected to write a book about the couple norm. When we were doing this research, we didn't realise really quite how strong the couple norm still is, and how difficult it can be to live outside it. What is really interesting is that you mentioned some people who have decided to couple up with someone with whom they have never been in any kind of sexual relationship.

I was going to say just a friend, but, you know, friendship is pretty important. And they are living in that way. That seemed to be something that was happening more often than we might have thought. Yes, indeed. I mean, we found, you know, people doing this in several of the countries. So in the UK, we talked to one woman who, in her 40s, who'd had a number of significant relationships. And she got to the point in her life where she said, I'm not seeking, you know, if another relationship happens, that's fine. I'm not going out to, you know, intensively look for

it. And what she was doing was saying that she had a really close friendship with a woman and she wanted to put this friendship at the centre of her life. And they were talking about whether they should have a civil partnership as a way of ensuring that if one of them died, they could leave their stuff to each other, as a way of ensuring they could get access to each other in hospital if one of them was sick, really to try and get access to the same sort of benefits that members of a conventional sex-based couple could have. But is that not more likely in a country like the UK? I don't know, perhaps I'm being,

what's that British exceptionalism, that term? Go on. No, because we also found, so we interviewed a woman in Portugal, similar sort of age, in Lisbon. She had quite a similar trajectory. And what she had done was she had set up home with her best gay male friend. And they rather jokingly talked about each other as husband and wife. They didn't have a sexual relationship, wasn't a romantic relationship, but it was a really important relationship. So they were forming sort of different types of couple. That also speaks to how there is something quite compelling about the intimate relationship of two people, whether it's

based on sex and romance or not. Do you think you will be writing the same book 50 years from now? No, I don't think so. I think everything in intimate life is changing. There's so much that has changed in the last 20 years that we wouldn't have predicted. Having done this piece of research and really kind of looked at how law and policy and culture push people towards a couple and kind of promote the idea that coupledom is the normal and natural way of living. There's something that's maybe beyond that as well and something about what it is that provides people with a sense of security and safety. And there is something quite compelling about a close relationship with one other person that promises, you know, attachment and safety and security that perhaps people will always be seeking. That is Professor Sasha Roseneill and the book there, The Tenacity of the Couple Norm. Now, many of us at some point in

our life will have felt shy and perhaps still do occasionally. What should you do if you're worried that your child might be shy, unusually shy? Can it be? Should it be fixed? Nadia Fainer is an expert on shyness and she runs an online programme for children who want to feel braver, more able to speak up and join in. She told Andrea Catherwood this week how being shy has affected her. For me being shy feels like you've got a kind of resistance band around you and it's holding you back so even if you want to talk to people, even if you want to perhaps share your ideas or be seen, you feel like you can't because fear or uncertainty just feels too uncomfortable, awkward, so you hide. But you aren't hiding now. I mean, you're here on national radio.

You've managed to overcome those fears and the shyness. How did you do it? It's been a journey for me. That's why my project is called Shy and Mighty, because I am still shy. You can probably tell. I'm really nervous right now. Please don't be. But I think it's really important to push yourself forward. Once you start to understand your shyness and see how it's impacting your life, you can take steps to overcome the aspects of it that hold you back.

But a little at a time, that's the key. Well, a lot of parents have written to us on this and we know that you know almost all children are shy when they're very little especially around new places and people I'm sure that's completely normal and so one question that parents are asking is how do you actually judge when shyness is becoming a problem for children? So I think first of all, it's really important to emphasise that shy people are not broken. We don't actually need fixing. 57% of the British population are shy. So if you think about it, that's roughly half so this outgoing ideal is almost a kind of artificial construct the idea that everyone should be loud and outgoing feels like the norm when actually you need a mixture

of people so I think the first thing to consider is do we need to do something about this? If you feel like your child or you in fact are missing out on opportunities, that you're living your life in the shadows, living a smaller life, that's an issue. But we need to be careful not to judge based on this outgoing ideal. Indeed. And of course, one of the questions that parents ask is, is my child being shy affecting their enjoyment at school and even their attainment? I mean we've had a situation this year in the pandemic where teachers have assessed grades and so there are parents who are wondering if my child isn't that uber confident boy or girl who's putting their hand up and answering every question could it actually affect them negatively is that something that you have to

deal with? I'd love to say that that's not the case but unfortunately it is when you live your life silently hiding you miss out you're underestimated you're overlooked you're ignored and that does have an impact on performance at school on attainment and in my research I've also found that it has an impact on achievement in work also happiness levels And shy kids often become shy adults. And unless you do something about it, unless as a family, as parents, as teachers, we perhaps intervene to support and encourage shy kids. Even just talking about shyness, it's not discussed.

So what can parents do if you're worried that your child is shy? What are the steps you can take? Okay, so I think the first step is awareness and looking at what shyness is for you and your kids. So how does it impact their lives? When do they feel shy? What triggers it? What makes them feel more comfortable then I would try to embrace their skills and their unique talents so I think with this outgoing ideal we forget that actually being shy and reserved has a lot of qualities there's a lot of good

things about being shy you perhaps are more cautious you think things through more deeply you're empathetic you form deeper relationships and yet we brush over all those things trying to kind of mold people into a more extrovert or outgoing version of themselves, which I think is damaging. One listener has asked what happens when she's got two daughters, one is six, one is eight. The eight-year-old she describes as confident, popular, a natural leader. The younger one, she says, is kind and funny and caring, but very shy.

So she's worried the younger one will sink into the background um she is worried that that frustrates the younger daughter what can she do to help her younger daughter be heard i think within that question i do have a little bit of an issue with it because it's the wording around but she's shy it's not a disability to be shy it's arguably a personality type many people are just born shy that's the way they are but in terms of what you can do I think understanding that competition when you feel you're in a competitive situation whether that's in your family in the classroom or in work even it's very tempting as a shy person to step aside and to feel like you can't possibly compete because you're not like

the outgoing ideal and therefore you don't get involved you just hide. So understanding that and almost talking to your family about the fact that people come in different shapes and sizes. We look different. We sound different. We think differently and we behave differently. Then I would also look at ways to help Mabel to feel more comfortable, understanding comfortable courage. It's about taking little steps forward, tiny steps. In the work that I do with kids, the steps that I encourage them to take are much smaller than the steps you would imagine. So suggesting someone, oh, just put your hand up in class,

that can feel like an enormous, insurmountable goal. Right. And just before we go, is there anything that you would say are the kind of absolute don't do it's if you're dealing with shy kids? What are the things you should never say to them? Never tell a child to stop being shy because you can't change your personality and i think instead looking at these steps that you can take forwards getting help that you need and that's why i created shine mighty and the mighty

mob to help kids realize that they're okay the way they are, but if they need a little bit of support or some structure to taking those steps forwards, then there are resources out there for them. Nadia Feiner talking to Andrea Catherwood. Sarah emailed and said, I was really sad to hear your speaker talking about shyness. I've struggled with it all my life. Unfortunately, if you're shy,

you do rely on alcohol or other stimuli to overcome this. We are quieter. That's just us. The sadness is we're forced to project a different personality. Nothing wrong with being quiet or unassuming. Unfortunately, social acceptance includes loudness and other attributes. It seems shyness just isn't socially acceptable. Interesting point of view. If you agree with that, you can let us know at BBC Women's Hour on social media. And now to clay and working with clay and the positive impact it can have on the human soul. Kate Malone is one of the country's leading potters and ceramicists. She set up a project to get more people to take it up. The country's leading potters and ceramicists. She's set up a project

to get more people to take it up. The project's called Fired Up Four Studios. Charlotte Clarkson is somebody, a young person, 16, who's doing all this at a local youth centre as part of Kate's project. First of all, you can hear from Kate on why she thinks clay is such an important material. Clay is so ever-present in our lives. We don't quite realise that our houses are made of it, our roofs, our floors, our tiles, our kitchens are full of it, our bathrooms, our medicine is made of it, our make-up's got it in, our toothpaste's got it.

It's just all around. And the earth is making more every day than we can ever use. Not necessarily where we want it or the type we want it, but it's this beautiful cousin of stone, sister of sand. It's just the most amazing material that when you get it in your hands, it's so calming. It's so rooting. And I think personally because I went to a big progressive school in Hembury outside

Bristol that had an amazing art department and I was so lucky to have had it in my life early on and our project Fire Up 4 is simply to try and get that happening for many of the young people in the country. Well it's really got our listeners going. Jane says, part of my thesis was about the role of women in many prehistoric societies as the makers of clay utensils. It's been discussed that there's a collective, maybe you can react to this, Kate, that there is a collective conscience that awakens when we as women touch clay.

Well, have you experienced anything like that i mean i made a pinch pot myself a couple of weeks ago when you were on but carry on i just think it really roots you i mean it is off the ground it comes out of the ground and when you hold it you're sort of connected to it yeah it's interesting isn't it let's well let's ask charlotte um charlotte how old are you i 16. Right and tell us how much did you know about clay and pots and all the rest of it before this? I didn't know that much at all I might have done some air dry clay yeah just fiddled with that but nothing really that much. So what have you been doing taking part in Kate's project? I've done some spinning some pots on a wheel and I've made

a bowl and a cup and then I've made a soap dish I've like some other some pots on a wheel and I've made a bowl and a cup. And then I've made a soap dish. I've like some other clay, which is getting fired and everything. Well, that sounds brilliant. And while you're doing it, what effect does it have on you? It just makes you feel really calm. You can just like let everything go into it and just focus on that. And the way it feels, it's just so relaxing it's just seeing it go from like a blob of nothing to maybe like a bowl that you've made and it feels so smooth it's a bit wet

usually and then you can just feel it's smooth and you can just move it around how you like it and like no two pots will probably be the same no i think that's it i mean you've actually hit the nail on the head there that's right isn't it kate is that it's so individual and you can create something really quickly however inexperienced you are yes it's quite extraordinary like when you have a sheet of paper and a pencil and you start doing a line it can be anything with clay it's like drawing in air, really. It's just, it's so free. And as soon as you make contact with it, your imagination can sort of be triggered. It's not like you have to sit and think about what you're going to do. You get your hands in it,

and it sort of helps you and guides you. It's the most amazing thing. I've been doing it since I was 14. And I'm addicted, I have to say. How did you get into it? Was it in your family? Well, no. No, I come from a sort of journalistic and sporting family, but it was at school. At school, we had this great art department that had metalwork, woodwork, ceramic, sewing, cooking. And I had a very good teacher and I just loved it. From the moment I sort of saw it through the windows and the sort of alchemy of it I mean if you think about it you take the soft soil from the ground a clay from the ground and you witness a material change because when you fire it in the kiln it becomes

ceramics it's actually a material change so when young people or anybody does it you sort of feel this sense of magic really of physics of physics. Yes, it is. Well, it's part irrational, the whole thing, isn't it, in a way? It's physics and it's magic. I've explained that exceptionally badly, so I think I'll hand back to Charlotte. I'll just say, Charlotte, are you going to keep doing this? Is it going to be a part of your life for good now? Yeah, Clay's definitely going to become a bigger part of my life.

It's just amazing. That's great, actually, isn't it, Kate? I mean, that's exactly the effect you want to have on somebody. Yes, I mean, we started this project a year ago and I asked 32 of England's great makers of clay to give a piece of work. And they really gave a piece.

When you make something, it's a piece of yourself. And we raised £100,000 auctioning it a couple of work and they really gave a piece when you make something it's a piece of yourself and we raised a hundred thousand pounds auctioning it a couple of weeks ago so we're going to build two studios stock them with clay materials and then provide training and teaching with this lovely cooperative called make north up near wigan and shawley and our plan is to sort of roll it out over the coming years to raise money again different ways it's makers of the uk sort of joining together to sort of help young ones that conversation i've got an incredible reaction this week from you obviously something just really positive that resonated with lots of you so thank you ruth says during lockdown i got my neighbor who's a potter to give me a bag

of clay and i started to play with an idea I've had for a while, a little sculpture celebrating the charms and differences in women's bodies. I ended up with these little Venus vases that hold a tiny sprig of flowers. They're all named after great women and goddesses. I found the whole thing incredibly therapeutic and calming and creative. Ruth, thank you for that. Danny says, I had a late miscarriage a couple of years ago and as part of my recovery, I actually did a pottery course. It was hand building, so I wasn't using a wheel

and without realising the relevance of what I was making, I made about 15 hollow little egg-shaped vessels. It was really therapeutic and healing and I credit that course with restoring my mental health and with the birth of my child a year after. Thank you for that. And from Carolyn, it was good to hear that conversation today about pottery. It's very hard to find anywhere to take part in pottery classes when they've mostly disappeared from colleges and schools in recent years. Many further education colleges used to have pottery studios but these don't seem to exist

anymore. Setting up your own facilities is expensive and beyond most people and private classes are expensive too. I just feel that today's children will have no access to pottery and won't be able to enjoy its many therapeutic qualities. Well, it would be sad if that did happen, Carolyn, based on what everyone said about clay and how much they love using it. We are back on Monday morning. I'll be talking then to the Panamanian-American conductor, Kalina Bavell, who is quickly becoming one of the brightest stars in the world of classical music.

Looking forward to that. Hope you have a reasonable weekend. We're back live Monday morning, just after 10. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.