Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Danielle Deadwyler on Oscars snub, disabled parenting, audio porn, ex-Lioness Jill Scott & Salma Hayek

Episode Date: February 11, 2023

Danielle Deadwyler's extraordinary portrayal of the civil rights activist Mamie Till-Mobley in Chinonye Chukwu’s ‘Till’ has earned her a BAFTA nomination for Best Leading Actress. The film tells the true story of Mamie’s pursuit of justice after her 14-year-old son, Emmett Till, was tortured and lynched in 1955. Danielle discusses grief, Mamie’s legacy, and the ongoing fight for civil rights.Dorset Police are investigating allegations of abuse in Dorset and Wiltshire Fire Service. Nazir Afzal, the former chief prosecutor for North West England & Zoe Billingham, former head of the Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue consider if the fire service has a problem with its culture, and in particular women.European Champion and Queen of the Jungle, Jill Scott, is one of the most decorated footballers in the country and after announcing her retirement from the sport last year she's turned her attention to the next generation. On Friday she opened a new football pitch in her hometown in South Tyneside. She tells us what she wants the Lionesses' legacy to be.Salma Hayek Pinault broke barriers in the 90’s as one of the first Latina actresses to establish a successful career in Hollywood. She tells us about her new role as a strong female lead starring opposite Channing Tatum in ‘Magic Mike’s Last Stand’.We explore the complexities of disabled parenting with Eliza Hull, an Australian musician & disabled parent and Nina Tame. We hear about their new anthology of stories, ‘We’ve Got This’.What is audio porn? Caroline Spiegel, the founder of an erotic audio app called Quinn and Dr Caroline West, consent educator at University of Galway discuss.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Surya Elango Studio Manager: Bob Nettles Editor: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Anita Rani here. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Coming up, two huge stars. The actress Danielle Deadweiler on her latest film Till and her thoughts about why only one black woman has ever won an Oscar for Best Leading Actress. And Salma Hayek Pinot, real Hollywood stardust. Also, a chat with former Lioness and Queen of the Jungle Jill Scott,

who tells us about her newest venture, a new football pitch, in her hometown of Jarrow in South Tyneside, the first of 23 named after the Lionesses in the Euro 22 winning squad. We also hear from two women on being disabled parents. We speak to Nazir Afzal and Zoe Billingham on the opening of an inquiry into allegations of abusive behaviour at Dorset and Wiltshire Fire Service. And there's a new type of porn in town, audio porn,

and it's said to be gaining popularity among some women. We explore why. But first, American actor Danielle Deadweiler. Danielle's extraordinary portrayal of the civil rights activist Mamie Till Mobley in Chinoya Chukwu's Till has earned her a BAFTA nomination for Best Leading Actress. The film tells the true story of Mamie's pursuit of justice after her 14-year-old son, Emmett Till, was tortured and lynched in 1955 for allegedly whistling at a white woman. Mamie insists that the images of the open casket containing her son's brutalised body be publicised to show the nation what was done to him and the viewing be public.

We see how her grief turns to action and galvanises support for the civil rights movement. We've got a clip from the film to play you. This is Mamie warning Emmett, played by Jalyn Hall, before he leaves his hometown of Chicago to visit his cousin in Mississippi. Ooh! All right, now you're going to miss your train. Beau, when you get down there- Oh, not again, Mama.

I've already been to Mississippi. Only one time before, and you started a fight with another little boy. He was picking on me. You're in the right to stand up for yourself, but that's not what I'm talking about. They have a different set of rules for Negroes down there. Are you listening?

Yes. You have to be extra careful with white people. You can't risk looking at them the wrong way. I know. And she calls him Beau, as you might have picked up from that clip as well. Whoopi Goldberg plays Mamie Till's mother in the film. She describes it as the best performance she has ever seen. Well, Nuala started by asking Danielle how it felt to hear that review from Whoopi Goldberg. Whoopi's biased.

In the right way. Whoopi is amazing. It's a given that she would care for it in this kind of verbal manner, because that's the way she's cared for the film in a very maternal fashion in the way that all the this film. You know, I can't take my eyes off you when I'm watching it. And it's all shown through the perspective of Mamie, the mother of Emmett Till. How did you first feel when you started reading about this film centred through those mothers' eyes? I felt like I was entering a world that hadn't been, you know, that had been withheld because, you know, it's a blip or treated as a blip in history often, predominantly.

How about that? And it's it's ridiculous. Right. And so you're coming into it and you're saying, oh, look at the beauty of this relationship. Look at the beauty of this mother and son. Look at how joyful they are together. Look at how, you know, I'm marveling at, you know, the parallels between myself and my son and her. And all of that stuff is lost on us. And so I did not know those things either. And so there's just this wonderful intimacy

that you begin to be invited into. It's an intimacy that is often neglected in various histories, but specifically about Black American women or Black women globally, where we lose knowledge about how they came to be who they are for movements or just how integral their place in history has been. And this was a story from the 1950s, the most harrowing, shocking story, but really they gave rise to the civil rights movement and galvanized. But as I was watching it, and I'd just be curious for your thoughts on this, I was really struck by that central figure, mother figure. I've interviewed Eric Gardner's mother, who was a black man killed by the police, his mum, Gwen Carr. And I just think that image of a heartbroken, grieving black mother is something we still see. For example, I'm thinking

of Rovonne Wells, who is the mother of Tyree Nichols, who's been in the press just over the past couple of weeks. And it always stops me. Tyree Nichols was killed by five police officers. There's the allegations. They are all black, but they talk about systemic racism within the force. I'm struck by those images that are still there. Mamie was intentional. And that's what we learn from the film. We learn about how she goes about inciting the public, inciting the South, the North, the globe to move, to be active in the need to support those who are oppressed in the South, right? And that's the same thing that Ms. Wales is doing in this loss of Tyree Nichols. She is saying the same thing. I need you to witness this thing. I need you to witness this this brutality. But she showed his image, her own image of him from the bed.

There's a sensitivity in thinking about the image that Mamie chose to have taken and the image that Miss Wells chooses to have shown. These are from their perspective, from one of care, from one of love, from one of memory and witnessing, you know, the beauty of the humanity of the people that were lost. When it's shown from these, you know, these other purviews, right, of people who happen to be present who are just documenting to catch systemic ill behavior or the body cam image, which is supposed to also catch systemic behavior to halt it. Like those perspectives are not, they're just not that they're loving. Yes, and I understand, of course,

how traumatic it can be for black people to witness or relive at times this footage that is put out in this day and age. Mamie was doing something at that point uniquely trying to draw attention to a problem that people perhaps hadn't seen, let's say, in that way previously with the open casket.

So what was that process like, getting to know her, getting to know her relationship? It's beautiful. It's loving to look upon these memories. They had a life. They had a real beautiful life. And that life was just snatched. You have a son who is 13. I read in an interview that he read as Emmett in one of your auditions I'm just wondering what that experience must have been like

yeah he did he's a sweet young boy he helped me out we've done a film together we did the scene where Mamie tells Emmett to be small oh yes because he's going to Mississippi

and because she is worried for his safety. It's so different to the city of Chicago. And instead, there was the Jim Crow South and she just thought that he, you know, might need to behave in a different way than he would usually. Yeah, so yeah, we did that scene together. It's a difficult scene. It's trying to be the utmost

of loving and the utmost of full of admonishment and whatnot. But there is a kind of joy and laughter that he brings to it. And you don't want to scare your children, but you want to scare your children. You kind of feel you have to. And it's a last minute effort at telling him that life is not all, not the same for all of us. Even though she, she, she, you know, recognizes that she has turned a kind of blind eye to the atrocities of the South and said, you know, earlier in the film that that's their, that's their problem. And that's the thing about this. It is literally everybody's problem. So in the same way, how you spoke of earlier that Black people are tired of having to witness these kinds of videos, I would say that white people should be tired of witnessing these videos.

Yes. You know, everyone should be tired of having to deal with this kind of violence, because at the end of the day, this is a residual effect that does affect all of us. Every set, every scene, it just pops. And I'm wondering about hope or joy. Obviously, so much came from Emmett throughout that earlier part of the film. But also Mamie needs to have people get on board in the midst of this horrific incident. Chinoy did this purposefully, this this color and a lot of people talk about it because you don't presume that it would be any kind of beauty in places where atrocity happens in this way. But it is, you know, and that's to say that black people in the South were marvelous. Like, I mean, in Chicago, I mean, these Southern people migrated north to Chicago. So the color that you witnessed there is the color that you witnessed there. The joy and the hope and the resistance

that you feel has come to this place of warmth of other suns, you know, right? Like the text is here too. These things are deeply connected. And so it's that those hopes and those joys are congruent. I mean, there's a lot of things surprising about the film and it's that those hopes and those joys are congruent. I mean, there's a lot of things surprising about the film and it's wonderful. But that is one that just caught my eye.

And I think you've described it so well as sometimes we don't expect those juxtapositions to happen at the same time. You received a BAFTA nomination for your performance in Till but there's been a lot of conversation you won't have missed it about the list of Oscar nominees for Best Actress this year and the fact that you have not been recognised nor indeed have any black women.

And following the nominations the director of Till that is Chinoya Chukwu she denounced the film industry for upholding whiteness and also for perpetuating an unabashed misogyny towards black women.

Would you agree with that characterization? And has it been your experience? I would say that the cinematic history is 100 plus years old. I would dare say that the system is deeply, deeply impacted by systemic racism that has shaped our country. And if we're still dealing with systemic racism in this country that is leading us to the loss of Tyree Nichols, that carries us from the loss of Emmett, there's a trickle-down effect of how racism impacts our lives, from the educational system to the

film industry to everything, any part of quotidian American life. And so, yes, there is value to what Glenn said. And it's imperative that every quality of our life begin to truly deeply interrogate and shift and rupture and change and radically shift the way they seek to actually be an equitable institution. Well, I wonder then, because perhaps when we're looking at the Oscars,

I'm thinking that we're drilling down into one part. Some of the stats I have, for example, 14 black actresses have been nominated in the oscars for best lead actress only one hallie berry has ever won and some might ask does the process need to change but i think what i'm hearing from you danielle instead is that society needs to change first instead of it from this academy out i don't know give me your thoughts i think it's from both ends okay you can't just start from one way thoughts i think it's from both ends okay you

can't just start from one way and then think it's gonna it's good and there is no trickle down effect right the economy that's not how it works you know it's got to come from every angle uh um if you know if hattie mcdaniel is the first to win one right and then the first nominee is dorothy dandridge And the first actual winner is Halle Berry. There are numerous decades in between that begin to make us be critically assess whether, you know, these things are. And then, I mean, bringing it to Michelle Yeoh, who's, you know, the first Asian American, I mean, Asian actor to be nominated. It's a, it's, it's, it's, you have to begin to question why are there these gaps? I mean, before I was even in consideration for anything, you know, these are the things that

I've witnessed. And so these are critical questions of, of, of how do you begin to, to actually bring equity to, to spaces that have long been led or deeply impacted by white supremacist ideologies and thought and practices. You know, if we've had challenges in the government and we've had challenges in education and we're witnessing people right now trying to stop the the truth of American history being taught in our schools, speaking specifically about Florida and Governor DeSantis and the desire to eradicate and erase Black and queer lineages from American history. If you see people trying to do this, literally in our faces, it wouldn't be a gas that it's a part of other institutions. What does it feel to be at the centre of a storm like this? You give the performance of a lifetime. It's not just Whoopi Goldberg that has said it. I could start reading the list. Everyone I've been reading called it Oscar worthy.

But then it doesn't happen. And you're held up as some sort of representative of this controversy. What does that feel like? Are you happy to take it on? Funny, I feel like I'm in the quiet. Really? Yeah, I do. I feel like I'm in the quiet. Everyone else is having a conversation. I'm witnessing what's all around me. It's kind of like being, you know, Dorothy in The Wiz. So you're the eye of the storm. It's calm where you are, but everything is trundling all around you.

Yeah. And I mean, it's a thing of who should be answering these questions. Is it should they come to me? Or should they come? Or should they be for others who are either the beneficiaries of the privilege of these spaces and should be much more critical of what that looks like around them? What do you think? Don't ask me.

That was Nuala speaking to the brilliant Danielle Dedweiler on Monday. You can now watch the film Till in cinemas across the UK. Now, Dorset Police is leading an inquiry into claims that firefighters at Dorset and Wiltshire Fire Service allegedly took photos of women who had died in car accidents. ITV News reported that images were shared on a WhatsApp group in which male firefighters allegedly made degrading comments about victims. Several female firefighters also

spoke of persistent sexual harassment, including claims a male firefighter demanded sexual favours at the scene of a fire. So does the fire service have a cultural problem, and in particular with women? And what can be done to improve it? Well, Nuala spoke to Nazir Afzal, the former chief prosecutor for North West England, who carried out an independent review into the London Fire Brigade last year and found it to be institutionally misogynist and racist. And Zoe Billingham, former His Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue. She started by asking Zoe, what did they make of those alleged allegations against firefighters

at Dorset and Wiltshire Fire Service? They're shocking, aren't they? I mean, these are allegations. We have to remember that there's a police investigation. But sadly, this doesn't surprise me. Having read Nazir's review of London Fire Brigade and actually drawing on the experience that I had when I was part of the fire service watchdog. You know, as long ago as 2018, when I published my first report on the culture within the fire service across England, I was really quite shocked by the behaviours that we saw at that time. So this is four years before Nazir's report. I mean, extraordinarily outdated practices, you know, things like women firefighters not having separate changing rooms, they're not having protective kit that fitted the female form.

And what was more surprising, I suppose, for me at that time was that these outdated practices, they weren't sort of happening under the radar, under the surface. They were actually the norm. They were in plain sight and they weren't being called out for what they are. And obviously, you know, what we're seeing now is the sorts of behaviours where women are being daily subjugated to abuse under the guise of banter, which is simply not good enough within the fire service. And as we were mentioning there, Nazir, of course,

that review that you undertook and finding the London Fire Brigade institutionally racist and misogynist. Do you think these stories and the findings are unique to the London Fire Brigade? London, if anything, is ahead of the game because it had an independent review and has accepted all the recommendations and is in the process of delivering them.

And what I've been learning, actually, since the report came out at the end of November is I've been approached by, I can't begin to tell you the number of female firefighters from across the country who have shared equally awful experiences of abuse and misogyny. I've spoken to women who have alleged rape and sexual misconduct. I've spoken to women who are suffering PTSD, who are being driven towards suicide. I've spoken to women firefighters who say that their equipment has been tampered with when they complained about their abuse, which definitely, of course, puts them in serious danger. Women, other women who were told, you know, watch yourself.

If you complain, watch yourself, because we have to go in together into a fire. And that, you know, the examples you gave, photos of women being taken, WhatsApp messages, Facebook groups, it is endemic, I'm afraid to say. And, you know, as I say, London is not in denial because it accepts everything. I'm really concerned, as I say, London is not in denial because it accepts everything.

I'm really concerned, as we discovered with the reports around Dorset and Wilshire. I can think of six other forces that are, if I had the resources, I'd be in there right now, Zoe, you know, because of what people have been telling me. And it is absolutely prevalent beyond measure, really. And to give you the answers are leadership. And West Sussex, for example, have already instituted or about to commission their own cultural work without waiting for a victim to come forward and talk about their experiences. And surprise, surprise, West Sussex is led by a female chief fire officer, which might tell you a little bit about the issue. It is everywhere. And I will say, I've gone far and say,

this is the Fire and Rescue Service's me-too moment. And unless they act upon this, they will drive away hundreds of phenomenal people who are working tirelessly to keep us safe. And I'm afraid to say it's a national failure. And actually, I'll be honest with you, international failure. I've been I'll be honest with you, Nuala, international failure. I've been approached by fire officers

across Europe, across Australia and across the United States of America, as if I've got any power in that environment. But it is interesting because I was wondering, Zoe, what your thoughts are. Nazir there mentions leadership, of course, but Danny Cotton, I will say,

was a woman who did lead the London fire. She was the commissioner between 2017 and 2019. But is this about the environment which firefighters work? Because Nazir is talking about he's been called into the same sort of situation around the globe. Is it the macho image of the firefighter having or structural, attracts a certain type of person. What do you think, Zoe? I think it's a bit of all of that. And I think Nazir is absolutely right.

It's no surprise to me at all. And if we look across what's been happening in policing most recently with these catastrophic stories of abuse of position, there will be pockets of holy toxic masculinity racism homophobia and bullying within every fire and rescue services in england and wales i suspect scotland as well um there will be no geographic boundaries um i think that we start with leadership we have to ask ourselves is the right culture being created

within our organizations to encourage women in in the first place only eight percent of our firefighters are women at the moment nula that compares to 33 percent of police officers who are women we have to have a conversation about this isn't about box ticking this isn't about wokeness this isn't about political correctness of having women in these roles. These are roles that women can do. They can bring insight. They can bring different perspective and they can change the culture and the tone of that macho watch culture. And that's precisely what needs to happen. You know, you talk about women actually joining the service. But what about this? We've talked about female firefighters, but in Nazir's report,

one woman wrote this. It's now reached a point with me that I tell my female friends not to let male firefighters into their house. I would advise any single woman not to let them in to check smoke alarms.

Why? Because I know what they do. They go through women's drawers looking for underwear and sex toys. Nazir, one of your recommendations was to consider introducing body-worn video for fire safety home visits because so much of the firework isn't putting out a fire. Of course, it's everything else as well, prevention, etc.

Yeah. No, absolutely. And again, good news. London Fire Brigade have not only committed to body-worn camera when you engage with the public, they've actually purchased it. And that tells you how committed they are to tackling this issue. Whereas, of course, others, because I didn't want a situation where you turn away a fire officer who's going to look at your smoke alarm.

You know, that's the last thing we want, given the dangers that that provokes. So we've got to rebuild confidence. And one way of doing that is to give assurances that anything that is said would be recorded in some way shape or form but you know i don't want to go there you know the reality is that this is a the misogyny that we've identified across the country dare i say across the world um needs to be addressed and what we're doing is trying to rebuild confidence by actions outside of the organization or when they

come into contact with people but actually they need to address you know investigate every single complaint they need to have independent investigation of all these complaints they need to as they have done in london already suspended people and then ultimately discipline them through proper processes and ultimately you know eject people from the fire service when they're not fit to be there this is is a groupthink, sadly. You asked why. There's a narrow-minded groupthink that struggles to accommodate a difference in diversity.

They tell women to fit in or think of the words that might follow that. Women are expected to conform. Even the PPE, what they wear is not unisex. And then when they complain about it, they're told, you just keep winching. And that is the culture. We will continue to follow up on this.

Nazir Afzal, thank you so much. Zoe Billingham, also thank you. I do want to read some of the statements that have come in to us from Dorset and Wiltshire Fire Service. They've said, the matters you've raised with us are deeply concerning. We take allegations of this nature extremely seriously. As allegations of criminal behaviour are involved,

we have immediately alerted the police so the appropriate action can be taken. And also that they are commissioning, they say, an independent investigation, which will provide female staff with the opportunity to speak to an independent organisation. And with the London Fire Brigade, they have responded that their independent culture

review was a watershed moment for the brigade. They're delivering on all 23 recommendations to ensure that our staff have a safe and modern workplace, they say. That was Nuala speaking to the former Chief Prosecutor for North West England, Nazia Afzal and Zoe Billingham, former His Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue. And if you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme or indeed a story you would like us to cover, we would love to hear from you. Feel free to go to our website and send us an email. Now, it would be fair to say my next guest had a very good year last year, ending 2022 as a European champion and queen of the jungle.

That's right, I am talking about the one and only Jill Scott, one of the most decorated footballers in the country. Jill Scott played in 10 major international tournaments, including two Olympics. At club level, she spent nine years with Manchester City, winning the Women's Super League once and both the FA Cup and League Cup three times. She also won the FA Cup at Everton. What a career. Well, now she's turning her attention to the next generation. Yesterday, she opened a new football pitch in her hometown of Jarrow in South Tyneside, named after her and dedicated to making facilities available to women and girls.

It's the first of 23 new Football Foundation-funded sites which will open across the UK in the hometowns of Jill's fellow Lionesses. You may remember after the Lionesses' victory, the team wrote a letter to the two Conservative candidates to be Prime Minister Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak, pointing out that only 63% of girls can play football in school PE lessons and calling on them to ensure all girls have a chance to play. An issue that's very important to Jill,

as she told me when we spoke on Friday. I think it's just a great story, really. Obviously, the football pitchers that the Football Foundation have invested in for the Ligonesses, them being in the hometown next to where they used to play as a young kid. I just think it's a very special project, just giving more opportunities to girls and women's football. And yeah, it's something that I think today is going to be a very special day.

It's an incredible project. It makes you smile when you think about what what's happening but let's take it back a little bit about your own experience of playing football when you're a little girl in South Tyneside what was that like? Yeah it was great memories to be honest really good memories it was the first time that I joined a team where I realised that there was people like me there was girls that wanted to play football up until then I'd only known me being the only girl and a bunch of boys so I've got such fantastic memories and just fields upon fields running around chasing the ball around and to think now that the girls have like proper pitches with good facilities yeah but them days definitely make us smile and

it's incredible to think that there's going to be young girls running around on on my pitch I suppose and making memories. The North East is a real hub for women's sporting success I'm thinking of Beth Mead who played at Sunderland obviously Yorkshire lass, Steph Houghton, Demi Stokes they all trained at the same club where you began what's in the water up there? I think there's just a whole load of passion to be honest I was at the Sunderland match last night and I grew up in a family where my brother was Newcastle I was Sunderland so derby days were just incredible but I think if you're from the northeast you've always had to work hard to get to where you are I suppose and I think that was

always reflected in the football you speak about them players and the first thing I think of is hard work and passion so yeah maybe there is something in the water What do you think the club announcing these amazing pitches that are opening up is going to do for the women's sport though? Are we going to find more Jill Scotts of the future now?

I'm always one of them that says you'll find talent anywhere in a back lane anywhere as long as they love football. And especially in the North East, there's such big talent up here. But I think one thing it does is it creates a safe environment. Obviously, we're shouting that we want more girls to play football, and that's great. And we're definitely starting to get them numbers now.

But we need to create safe environments. There shouldn't always be the last thought where they're on the pitch eight till ten because obviously the boys have took priority so I just think them pitches will just knock down another barrier really for girls and women's football. And you really have been shouting about it at the highest level because you and your fellow lionesses you wrote to the Conservative leadership candidates who at the time were both Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak, obviously one of them now is Prime Minister. Do you think you've heard enough from them? Are they committed to your demands?

I think, well, to be honest, I was in the jungle when that meeting happened. So since I got back, I was trying to catch up on things. But yeah, obviously everything's a process, isn't it? I think with girls' and women's football, it's definitely been a process isn't it i think uh with girls and women's football it's definitely been a process to get at this point so they've started the ball rolling and and hopefully we can see see changes this year we've obviously highlighted that it has to start a pe level we need equal opportunities for girls and boys and then you go on to the

grassroots level and then that will filter on through to the national team so i think it's the start of a process and and hopefully we can get that going in the right direction is the infrastructure there because since obviously your epic win there's been a huge increase in demand of girls wanting to play football have we got the have we got the facilities to cope yeah it is and i know that the fa are doing a lot of work i was at a conference the other day where they're talking about grassroots level football and they're making plans for the next 10 years so yeah everybody's putting in the hard work and i think that's one thing with girls and women's football the law was fine that because you've had a lot of people do it for no money to get it to where it is now so the future is going to be so exciting

as I say all these opportunities is going to be 23 pitches in total like how amazing is that and people can go and they'll be playing on a pitch that's got Beth Mead Millie Bright's name on and ultimately they'll be kind of aiming to become that player in a few years so I think it's a great story and as I said before I'm just so excited for the future of the game It's an amazing story, it's such a good news story, what might little Jill think about this?

I think little Jill would have arrived at that pitch she'd probably have forgot her kit because I stayed forgetful through my whole whole career um but I think her eyes would have lit up when she stepped on that pitch and also she would have been back in time for tea so that would have made her smile as well whereas in the past it was always getting back at ridiculous times of night um so yeah it gives this goosebumps sinking of it absolutely I want to I want to ask you about the ACL injury issue in the women's

game. It's regarded as one of the worst injuries in football. And arguably three of the world's best players are off with this injury at the moment, including the top goal scorer at the Euros, Beth Mead. Research has suggested that female players, I don't know how much you know about this, are more likely than men to get this injury. But players and the fans are calling for more studies in to find out what's causing it. Is this something that concerns you? I think, you know what, I was always so fortunate with my career and injuries,

but I've seen a lot of girls go through ACL injuries and I've seen them do one and then a few months later do the other. And you know what, you talk about them young girls looking up to the senior players, they want to see their heroes and idols on the pitch as much as possible. That's what promotes the game. If they're going to England games, the ones to see them players playing. So I think there is a lot of research going on now.

I know that I've seen a few projects that are happening. And yeah, obviously anything to help the game, anything to help keep them superstars on the pitch is good for the women's game. Yeah, there's lots of speculation around what causes it. Some people are saying it's with women having wider hips. Others are saying it's linked to the menstrual cycle. And others saying it's due to the increased amount of games

women are playing. What are you hearing from players? What do they think could be behind it? Yeah, obviously we used to hear a lot about the way that females are built differently to male players um in terms of game load the men have a probably more games than the women's team so it's a difficult one isn't it i know they used to say about the pictures that um were played on but sometimes it's if you go from like 4g to grass and then back to 4g does that have a have kind of a factor on it but i think it's something it's going to be a constant

thing that we're going to have to keep looking at but the more research the better because as i said before keeping them players on the pitch and for the player themselves and for them young girls looking up to them players is the main thing. Yeah, we need the heroes. We need the players. We need to carry on lifting those trophies because what we didn't realise at the time, of course, was when you lifted that Euros Cup last summer. It was your last time playing football for your country and professionally.

Both you and Ellen White stepped down after the tournament. So what's life been like for you since? It's been quite hectic, be honest but i've been enjoying it it's been great to go around and and share my story and kind of use that journey in the euros to help kind of other businesses and stuff like that i'm going to be getting back into coaching soon which i'm very happy about i was doing an event the other day and i just loved being back on the grass i was doing some coaching with some young girls. So I think that's where I need to be.

I don't want to be remembered for that girl from the jungle. I need to be remembered for my football. But you know what? I'm enjoying every minute of it. And I was so incredibly honoured to be part of that squad in the summer. So yeah, it's just exciting. And hopefully I can stay involved in the game

because as I've touched on, the future's exciting. That was the former Lioness, Jill Scott. Still to come on the programme, audio porn. What is it and why might it appeal to women? But before that, a look back to one of my highlights from last week, Salma Hayek Pino, actress, director and producer who broke barriers in the 90s as one of the first Latina actresses to establish a successful film career in Hollywood, appearing in several Robert Rodriguez films, including from Dust Till Dawn and Desperado, her breakout role that was written especially for her.

She was Oscar nominated for her role in Frida about the life of Mexican artist Frida Kahlo, a film which she also produced. She's also been given superhero status in the Marvel film Eternals, and she's the voice of Kitty Softpaws in Puss in Boots. In her latest film, Magic Mike's Last Dance, she's starring opposite Channing Tatum, and perhaps surprisingly, it's set mostly in a London theatre. While I caught up with Salma in the flesh on Friday's programme,

here's a clip from our interview. I had to go to work every day and my office was a theatre with 12 strippers. And they were all talking about, you know, what they eat, all the exercise, and I was just sitting there relaxing and not worrying about that. So it was a group of men discussing their bodies? Oh, yes. Oh, my God.

Worse than women. Worse than women. At some point, and I became very good friends with them, at some point they're asking, like, where do you get your balls waxed? I'm sorry to say this, but I said, oh, no, no, no. I don't want to hear about these. Oh, that voice.

To listen back to that interview with Salma Hayek Pino from yesterday, go to Friday, the 10th of February's episode on the Woman's Hour website or on the BBC Sounds app. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, being a parent, as everyone knows, can bring with it a whole host of challenges. For parents who are disabled, these challenges can be even bigger,

not least because of the discrimination they face from society and even the medical profession. But it's by no means impossible. As a new book, We've Got This, demonstrates. It's a group of essays written by parents who are disabled, blind, deaf, neurodivergent or chronically ill, compiled by Eliza Hull, a musician and disabled parent herself who advocates for the change in the way people view disability. And even for people who aren't disabled or aren't even parents, it's a brilliantly positive and empowering read, full of inspirational stories.

Well, I was joined by the editor herself, Eliza Hull, and one of the authors, Nina Tame. I started by asking Eliza what made her want to collect these stories and put the book together. Look, it really was because when I was becoming a parent, I'd searched everywhere for a book like this. And I was really surprised that, I'd searched everywhere for a book like this. And I was really surprised that there wasn't one that existed. And I then went online to try and find, you know, I guess just community really, and just wanting to know what it was going to be like to be a disabled parent. And again, I couldn't find anything. And the narrative that I kept finding was that it was a burden for a child to have a disabled parent.

And yeah, that was when I was like, wow, we really need to start to change the attitudes when it comes to being a disabled parent. And I have to say this book does just that. There's so many themes that I want to pick up on. One of them a common theme Nina I'm going to bring you in after this to talk about it is that that even in the medical profession that people presume that if you have a disability that you shouldn't really have a child yourself how common is that response well that's what my experience was so when I was

really excited I just met my husband tobe and wanted to start a family. And I'd always wanted to start a family and luckily had grown up in a family that, even though I've had my disability since I was a child, they were really supportive of my decision to be a parent. And so when I went to my neurologist, who I'd been seeing since I was really young and I really trusted him and I said, I want to start a family. He said that he didn't think that that would be a good idea. He didn't think that I'd be able to manage and he was especially worried about me potentially passing

on my disability and just said, look, I just don't think it's a good idea for you. And I remember in that moment feeling very vulnerable and a lot of shame. And to be honest, I went home and I started to believe him and luckily had a really supportive partner that just said, no, we can do this. And I'm so glad that I didn't listen to him because I have two great children and I'm a successful parent. And I guess, you know, that medical discrimination is not uncommon. And this book really shows that. And I think this

is what I really want to change. And I think this book hopefully will reach these spaces to be able to provide more education. It really should. Nina, I want to bring you in because when you became pregnant, they actually offered you the option of terminating. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, that was because my third, so I've got four kids and my third son has got the same condition as me. So that was like a really weird experience. You know, it was obviously a very wanted pregnancy and we were very excited. And then, you know, we had all the hushed tones as the nurse left because she'd found something. And the doctor came in and said, you know, he's got spina bifida like you, we don't know how serious it's going to be. Would you like to

continue the pregnancy? And I just, it was so quick, just like that as well. And I remember sort of me and my partner kind of laughed awkwardly because we were like, well, yeah, of course we do. Like like surely there's no one better to parent a kid with spina bifida than somebody who's got spina bifida um but you know I mean we were offered that termination at every sort of subsequent appointment right up to kind of having him and um I feel that sort of for a lot of disabled parents the kind of joy of pregnancy gets taken away from them by sort of the medical professionals they're seeing, even by sometimes the people around them, because there's always these, but what if this,

what if this, what if this, instead of the kind of congratulations that, you know, most parents get. I've got to say, Nina, I loved reading your essay, particularly your style. It's very straightforward. And then what really struck me is just how patronised you've been at every level, not just from the medical profession, from strangers on the street. Yeah, I mean, I was born disabled, but didn't start using a wheelchair full time until about four years ago. So I've kind of parented on two legs. And you know, you wouldn't have known I was disabled unless you knew me. And over the last kind of five, well, over the last sort of 10 years, I've parented using a mobility aid, and as I say, wheelchair for the last four years. But the minute I started using the wheelchair it's like the idea

that I could be the parent just gets completely erased so if I'm out with like Jason either half and the kids um you can just kind of see people like surely she can't be the mum um it's like this idea that well you know her legs don't work so surely none of her works. And it's, yeah, it's a very strange experience to kind of just realise that people just don't, you know, don't think that I'm the mum. Eliza, one of the other threads that runs throughout these essays is the idea that the thing that needs to change is society and societal attitudes towards disability. You say in your section, it's not my disability that disables me, it's society. Where does that change start, do you think? Well, yeah, I mean, I agree.

I feel like it's not, you know, it's not, we don't feel disabled in our homes, we feel disabled in our worlds because we live in an inaccessible world where we face discrimination and that's when I've faced the most discrimination and especially when I've had children with me. that's when I noticed that people started staring at me because I walk very differently. And I think what I, I guess what I feel we need to do is really just have representation. Like, I can't believe really, when you look at it, that there are more than 1.7 million disabled parents in the United

Kingdom. And yet a book like this has never existed. I also think we just need more education in schools because, you know, young children, they are the future. Something that you both also talk about is your internalised ableism. I want to understand a bit more about this. What is that? How does it work work and what does it do to you even Nina yeah well I didn't even know what the term ableism was until you know pretty recently um considering I was born disabled so you know when I think a lot of disabled people grow up you know if you're born disabled or just you know whenever you become disabled you often tend to be the only disabled person you know so it's so easy to internalise everything, all the messages you hear about disability, you know, nobody sort of sees

disabled as a neutral term, everybody, you know, whenever I used to tell people I was disabled, automatically, they'd be like, Oh, I'm sorry, like, you don't know anything about my life. It's just, you know, it's just a word. And I think you can't help but internalize all of these messages that you're given about disability and it wasn't until I found my community I found the online disabled community I learned about ableism and it was such a sort of light bulb moment of oh it's not me like my body's not wrong the way my body function isn't wrong it's just you know all of this sort of stuff that I've been internalizing and for me when having my son who had the same disability as me was a huge changing point because I looked at him and disability was so beautiful on him and I was

like how have I not seen this if it's beautiful on him then it can be beautiful on me as well and I didn't ever want him to grow up internalizing it and thinking he was the problem and we've just brought him up to be so empowered to know that you know inaccessibility is a problem and other people's attitudes is the problem because I didn't want him to yeah internalize it all like I did. And you say Nina in your section of the book that you find real joy in disabled parenting. Tell us about the joy. we can kind of whiz down the hill and it's just lovely and they've never like my youngest once sort of said to me and my son who's disabled as well and was like I wish I was disabled and it was such a weird conversation obviously never heard anybody say that before and I'm like well you know maybe one day you will be babe um it's like you know they don't see it yeah in the way

that everybody else does that was Nina Tame and Eliza Hull. And the new book, We've Got This, is in bookshops now. I've been teasing you with this for the last hour and we have finally arrived at audio porn. The number of women watching porn is on the increase, according to one of the world's most popular sites. They say around a third of its viewers are female and that number is growing.

Well, there's also a new type of porn that's said to be gaining popularity among some women. Audio porn. You might wonder what it is and why it might appeal to women. Well, I spoke to Caroline Spiegel, the founder of the erotic audio app called Quinn, as well as Dr Caroline West, consent educator at the University of Galway and host of the Glow West Sexual Wellness Podcast. I asked her to explain audio porn. It's a way of engaging with erotic content just through listening. So we talk about things like visual pleasure, but actually oral pleasure. So A-U-R-A-L,

not oral. So we listen to things constantly and we find erotica in so many things. If you think about the sound of kissing and we think about the sounds that are in sex, I think there's a lot of people who are maybe not more or less interested, but they're interested in that as an added bonus to the rest of their pleasure. So visual stimulation isn't just the only form of engaging with erotic content. Who's listening to it? Everyone. It's really, really popular over the last few years, should I say, especially since the pandemic. But predominantly women and queer people, actually, because they're finding a way that they can find representation there outside of mainstream porn, which, let's be honest, you know, it's OK in some places, but it's not great. A representation of different body types and different kinds of pleasure whereas audio porn has more space for representation and for

people to fill in the gaps themselves so they can imagine the kind of bodies the kind of looks the kind of clothes everything like that so it's a lot more user-friendly for more than a mainstream porn audience yeah what is it offering um women that exactly what you're saying that mainstream porn isn't offering them and is it young women um a whole range i think the older generation often get left out of these conversations but you know the rise of sgis and the older generation has shown that they're still quite verbally and sexually active so i think it's just that space and reprieve from like there is a lot of misogyny and violence in mainstream porn. So it's a bit of a reprieve from that and how you should look. So, you know, it takes off that stress about comparison

and feeling bad in our bodies and things like that. So if you are in your 40s and 50s and 60s, you know, you don't have to compare yourself to an 18-year-old, like, perfect body that you're seeing on screen. So I think it's much more liberating for a lot of people. Yes, the imagination in your head. I'm going to bring in your namesake, Caroline Spiegel. Welcome to Woman's Hour. You decided to set up an audio erotic app. Why? Yeah, so I started Quinn in 2019 when I was a senior at Stanford and I was studying computer science. I was studying systems like operating systems and compilers and networking. And at the same time in my private life, I was recovering from an eating disorder. And one of the kind of main side effects of the eating disorder was sexual dysfunction

and a total loss of libido and normal sexual function. So I kind of started just exploring the whole area of sex. And I found that, you know, the FDA has approved 30 plus medications for sexual dysfunction for men and zero for women. And I think there's been maybe one. Yeah. So then I kind of just got into erotic content and found Audio Erotica and fell in love. And that's kind of the origin story. It's like the one thing that worked for me. So what do people get with your app then? They can listen to erotic stories.

Yes, exactly. So we call it Forbidden Spotify. Basically, we have a curated selection of creators who make audios. Our average audio is like 20 minutes. It's designed for the listener to orgasm while listening to it. But other than that, it's a lot like a romance novel. It's like a romance audio book on steroids and into a 20 minute segment that kind of fits into your daily routine. And who are recording them? Who are the people recording these stories?

So we have over 60 creators now, and each one kind of has their own flair, their own personal brand, sort of like Edward versus Jacob, you know, the Twilight era. And they each have developed their own little fandom. So a lot of them are actors, they're voice actors, they're content creators. And it's really cool to see. Yeah, you know, some are more like the boyfriend archetype, some are more the bad boy, you know. Can you give us an example of a story or a scenario? Yeah, absolutely. So, for example, we have a wildly popular creator named Anani Fun,

and he has a series called Executive Lounge. And in Executive Lounge, he creates this sort of fantasy world where female executives get taken to a retreat. And at the retreat, there are men who, you know, treat them to various sexual things with like a ton of consent, enthusiastic consent and all sorts of things. But each episode of Executive Lounge is, you know, he's your chauffeur driving you to the event. He's your masseuse. He's your concierge and so on. And it's an extremely popular series. And there's just something about the intimacy of it just being in your head, your ears and just for you. The sort of say that audio is actually more visual than visual content, because I remember the first time, I mean, everyone does as a teenager, as a child, you're reading

your favorite book and you have the most vibrant, insane imagery in your mind and you're escaping to this other world. Right. And then maybe you see the movie of your favorite book and you're like, this is not at all what it looks like. This is wrong. Right. This is not at all what it looks like this is wrong right this is not what

I imagined um and so I I think that principle applies here where your imagination is more powerful and kind of infinitely uh like moldable and and your fan and your porn becomes customized to what you want you can be anywhere with whoever you want. And that's really cool. I'm quite interested in your own journey to get to this point of setting up the app. What did you find that you didn't want to get you to this place where you decided this is it? Audio erotica is what works for me. What were you experiencing that you thought this is not it? And actually, there is a whole market that people particularly women would responding to better than visual porn well yeah one interesting statistic is that one out of every

50 porn site subscriptions are made by women but nine out of every 10 romance novel purchases are made by women which is kind of breathtaking, right? And there's this myth that's perpetuated that women are less sexual than men, or they're inherently sort of prude or not interested in sex, but that's not really it. They're just looking for something different. They're looking for something different in their sexual content. And one thing, the lack of words in pornography, you know, actually when you're falling in love with someone, when you're even having casual sex with someone, you're talking to them. You guys have a rapport, a relationship, flirting, connection, life, you know, and and with porn, sometimes it feels that we're dropped in the middle of nowhere with no context. And you're kind of like, why am I in a Reno Airbnb in 2001 with two strangers?

It's like totally not the fantasy, right, that that a lot of women are looking for. There's a lot of concern and we talk about it on Woman's Hour a lot about the damaging effects that porn may be having on young people and linked to low self-esteem, harmful views around sex and relationships and the way women are treated. And there's a report out this week that says children were being exposed to porn as young as nine years old. What's the likelihood that we can get young men interested in this type of material instead? I think working in consent education, I think the key always comes down to sex education at a younger age because all sex education really is is just about respect

and feeling good in your body and being able to communicate your needs and desires with other people and keep that respect going like that's that's all consent is it just means you're not hurting someone else and you're not feeling entitled to their body so we embed that in people at a very young age they're more likely to think actually more likely to reject what they see in mainstream porn and say, we know that's not real. Whereas now, because we don't talk about porn, you have those young people at nine, 10, 11, who don't have the critical thinking skills to process what they're seeing and might think, oh, this is how you have sex. Whereas if we have decent sex education, people watch porn at a later age and think, that's not realistic. I'm not going to try and copy that, which is fantastic. And then it just

becomes like the fast and the furious. No one copies that and copy that, which is fantastic. And then it just becomes like the Fast and the Furious. No one copies that and thinks that that's real. Caroline Spiegel and Dr. Caroline West on audio porn and its appeal to women. That's all for me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. And don't forget, 10 a.m. Monday morning, Nuala will be in the hot seat. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.