Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Davina McCall, Papua New Guinea, Jung Chang, Fawning, Sophie Ellis Bextor

Episode Date: September 13, 2025

Davina McCall, one of TV’s most popular presenters has a new book out, Birthing, co-written with the midwife, Marley Henry. Davina joined Anita Rani to talk about her stellar career so far, including hosting Big Brother for 10 years, campaigning for better menopause care and building a fitness empire. What makes her tick? And what drives her forward to clear hurdles such as an usual childhood, drug addiction and most recently, brain surgery for a benign tumour that she nicknamed Jeffrey?As the 50th anniversary of Papua New Guinea's independence from Australia approaches later this month, we hear why the country is currently one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a woman. Two-thirds of women in PNG have experienced some form of sexual violence in their lifetime, which is almost twice the global average. Nuala McGovern was joined by Tahina Booth, a former elite athlete and founder of Grass Skirt Project who is trying to break the cycle of gender-based violence through sport and Joku Hennah, a journalist and activist.Jung Chang’s Wild Swans, the epic family memoir that followed the lives of Jung, her mother and grandmother through China's 20th century, was banned in mainland China, but was a smash hit worldwide upon publication in 1991. Now Jung’s sequel, Fly, Wild Swans, brings her family’s story up to date and she joined Nuala to talk about its themes. We’ve all heard of the fight or flight response in the face of danger, but there's also freeze, and then there's fawn, also known as people pleasing, or appeasing. Clinical psychologist Dr Ingrid Clayton has written about this in her new book, Fawning - Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find our Way Back. Nuala spoke to Ingrid about her own experiences that made her want to help others overcome this form of trauma response and what fawning looks like in practice.In 2023 Sophie Ellis-Bextor’s Murder on the Dancefloor went viral on TikTok after Emerald Fennell used it in a key scene in the film, Saltburn. That resurgence, along with her popular Kitchen Discos that got lots of us through the Covid lockdown set the scene for her new album, Perimenopop, which is released tomorrow, a celebration of womanhood in middle age. Sophie joined Anita in the Woman's Hour studio.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Rebecca Myatt

Hello, I'm Anita Rani, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up, some of the highlights from this week. TV, Queen and Menopause game changer Davina McCall is here to talk about her new book on birthing and life after her brain surgery. We travel 9,000 miles to Papua New Guinea to hear from two women who are working to break the cycle of gender-based violence on the South Pacific Island. Author Jung Chang, you might remember her best-selling book, Wild Swans.

She now has a sequel, Fly Wild Swans. And Disco Queen, Sophie Ellis Bexter, is with us. Lots to get through, so let's crack on. First, Davina McCall is a TV presenter known for an enormous amount, the mass singer, my mum, your dad, long-lost family, her new dating show stranded on honeymoon island, and Big Brother, of course. Davina has also hosted the Brit Awards, Comic Relief, the BAFTAs. She's campaigned for better menopause care

and has built a successful fitness empire. Apart from the small screen, she's turned her hand to podcasts. She does making the cup with her partner, the hairdresser Michael Douglas, and she's co-written a new book about birthing. But almost a year ago, Davina hit the headlines for something else entirely, undergoing brain surgery for a benign tumour, which she nicknamed Geoffrey. while Davina joined me in the Woman's Hour studio yesterday and I started by asking her about Geoffrey.

So Geoffrey is the name I gave my tumour. I called him Geoffrey because I don't know anybody called Geoffrey and I felt like I could abuse Geoffrey in my mind and be angry. I was very angry about it because I felt like it was like having a cuckoo, unwanted guest in my brain and I was amazed to hear that it was a colonisation. cister. It was very rare. And it had been in my brain since I was in utero, probably. Like, it's from your mother's, I think it's a piece of placenta or something to do with that. And

so it had been there quietly growing. And I thought that I was asymptomatic. So it was found by chance. I was gifted a health check by a company that I did a menopause talk for. And I was like, I don't need a health check. I'm divina. Yes. I'm healthy. I'm fitness lady. It's what I'm known for. I felt fantastic. I felt the best I'd felt in years. And they went, well, look, they do a Dexa scan. And I hadn't had a Dexter scan. I thought, oh, well, that would be quite useful. And a mole map. And I thought, well, that's quite useful. I was Sunbed Queen in the 80s. I'm ashamed of that. You didn't know any better. I didn't know any better. And so I had the health check and actually what it flagged up was I had the word benign. And I just want to say to anybody listening that knows anybody with a benign brain tumour, benign does not mean fine. And that's a really important thing to say because benign cysts can be devastating.

They can be inoperable. They can kill you. Just because it's not cancerous doesn't mean it's not deadly. And the other thing is I just thought I heard the word benign. I heard you've had it in there since you were born. so I just didn't do anything about it. And then a few months later, somebody called me and said, we think you should go and talk to somebody at least about it.

And when I went to talk to a neurosurgeon about it, I understood that actually what I was hearing was them sort of saying, we think you should get it removed. So I went through a long process of getting second and third opinions and then came to the realization that I did need to get it taken out. And you're friends with the surgeon. I mean, I love this guy. Yeah.

Kevin, it's very funny. Oh my God, I've got to tell you this. Please. So, I can wink. Yes, you can. And I couldn't wink before the operation. So whenever something happens now. So something will happen and I'll go, oh my God, Michael, I just winked.

And then I look and I go, I can wink with the other eye. No, I couldn't do this before the operation. And then we always, we look up to the sky as if he's some kind of deity. And we go, thanks, Kevin. So sometimes I'll put on a dress. and I look in the mirror and I go God, I'm feeling like amazing and I go, thanks Kevin

like literally just thank Kevin for everything I mean I thank Kevin for being alive you know Kevin O'Neill by the way big round of applause for Kevin O'Neill my brain surgeon We need to give him a round of applause and I love that you can now wink at yourself in the mirror when you're wearing a nice dress

I mean how mad is that I used to just blink sideways when I wanted to wink so nobody could see the other eye You say you got to you're crediting him with saving your life and he did So I wonder what went through your mind when healthy, successful, life is great, Davina, is potentially staring at death.

My kids, that's the first thing, I think. You know that, right? Like, you're going to be thinking they're going to be all right. And I thought, right, I'm thinking about the room full of people in the operating theatre and what they don't want is for me to go down there and go, Please do the best job you can.

I've got three kids. Please take care of me. Don't kill me like I want to live. I thought I need to get to a place where I can walk into that room and look at everybody and go, you are all amazing people. And not just the neurosurgeon and the anaesthetist, the nurses, the people that clean the rooms,

like, you know, all of you are an amazing team. and I know I don't need to ask you to do the best job I know you're going to do the best job you can that's who you are you wouldn't be in this profession if you didn't want to do that so I've got to let go of the outcome

how do I do that I've got to let go of what's going to happen to me and just have faith in whatever's going to happen to me is the right thing So how did you do that? We don't know

we're all going to die life is terminal we've all got a terminal illness and it's going to get us in the end So I did a lot of work on myself But the main thing was, are my kids going to be okay And I got to a wonderful place where I knew That if I didn't make it, they would all be okay

It's amazing And I'm still, I've still got that Yeah, did you have, how was that conversation with them? I didn't talk to them about it Because I didn't want to freak them out But it was in my head I looked at each one of them and studied them as people where they're at in their life,

where they're going, their relationship with each other, their relationship with our families, the support that they have. And that you as a mother have done your thing. Yeah, I've done it. We are on Women's Hour, so I want to talk about some of the women in your life. Yeah.

And we're going to start with you, Mum. Yes. It wasn't the easiest of childhoods. She wasn't a conventional mother. No. So my birth mother, I'll call her because I've got an amazing stepmom and I'd love to talk about her later.

We're going to talk about Gabby, definitely. She was, like if you met her, Anita, you'd have been like, wow, she's quite something. She was like a whirling kind of hurricane of sexy Frenchness, free. she slept with everybody and her catchphrase at the end of that was like it's only bodies but she'd leave in her wake devastation you know broken arty people broken relationships but but there was something about her that was magnetic um but it was she was a difficult mum to have and she didn't she wasn't parented and i've Michael's really helped me forgive her. So I said to him a couple of years ago,

you know, you would have loved my mum. She was extraordinary. He said, I've met her. And I said, you haven't met it? Because she died before I knew. And he said, he put his hand on my chest. And he said, she's in here. I obviously started crying straight away.

And he said, all my favorite bits about you are thanks to your mum or your slightly naughty bits where you're dancing or you're kind of wanting to go out somewhere or your willingness to kind of do something crazy that I want to do on the spur of the moment you said magnetic

I mean that is you oh really? Yeah come on to Vina yes what does that make you think you know it was really interesting when I was younger when people used to say you're just like your mum

it was the worst thing someone could say to me if anyone can relate to that you know and and I always thought that it was an insult when somebody went you're just like your mum it would be like you are just like your mum I that's how I heard it but now I think that maybe they were saying your desperate need to kind of dance all the time or perform or be seen or your extrovertism um that's not really a word is it but anyway it is now thank you that's all my mum so where does gabby your step-mom fit into it well what was interesting

was that for gabby my dad was broken when gabby met him my mum had broken him and devastated him and he was so sad and he met my gabby and she is a rock she is a solid grounded beautiful woman and they they came together and mum was amazing for dad right up until the day he died he had Alzheimer's for the last eight years

and the way she cared for him through lockdown which was devastatingly difficult but I I felt like because I kept people kept saying I was like my mum that I misread Gabby's intention to me I had planted an intention

in Gabby that wasn't correct so I thought she thought oh you're just like Flo you know trouble your you know so she would say something to me and i'd be insulted by it but i'm going to give you an idea of what i mean so before i went into hospital last year everything changed so michael had had changed the way i saw gabby because he kept saying what an amazing woman she was and every time he met her and i was like she really is extraordinary she's 75 she went to see cold play for the first time last year right she went to a valencia to go and do an immersive

Spanish course. You know, she's like really mega. And I was like, yes, she's amazing. And then she said to me, what kind of sleepwear have you got for the hospital? Because I know what you're like. And I started laughing and I suddenly saw her intention. And it wasn't, I know what you're like. She wasn't being judgy.

You're just like your mum. This is terrible. She was laughing. What was the sleepwear? So basically, she's absolutely right. Normally, I would wear something quite glamorous. and sexy, but I was like, I'm going to hospital, but I am, I do still want to bring it. So I'd gone to a shop and I'd bought shorty pyjamas.

So the shorts were quite short. I put the top on and it was like, but they're fleece. So we went through this whole thing. I was like, they're fleece, but the shorts are short. And we were really, really laughing. She's going to go, what is your brain surgeon going to think? And everything changed that day. And we started really laughing about everything.

can change it any time. At any time. Just change your intention. I was 57 when I first saw my stepmother's true intention towards me and it was pure love. That's beautiful. I've had a message in from Dickie who says thanks to Vina. My beautiful strong wife has a benign brain tumour and acoustic neuroma. It's scary but she's dealing with it so bravely.

Thanks for talking about this. Yeah, it's a pleasure. You must get that a lot. I must say that if anybody is concerned and after what we're talking about, you know please do contact your GP if you have any concerns absolutely and also the sooner you do deal with it the better the outcome will be Tavina I've got so much to talk to you about you we're going to have to do a special together but I need to talk to you about finding love yeah because you are part of one half of such a you're so in love aren't you yeah with

Michael Douglas nauseating no it's wonderful to see you Do you feel like you're in a sort of a new life, a second place? Like, where do you feel that you are? Do you know what is quite funny? We've come up with a term and it's kind of second time rounders. So you meet people and they may have been in a long-term relationship. And we were very lucky to have been in our old relationships because we've got amazing kids. And we were with exactly the right person for that phase of our life.

and then for whatever reason we've ended up here together and it's good fun. It's great, you know, I'm having the time of my life. It's brilliant. Davina McCall and her book, Burthing is out now. And following on from Davina, talking about a benign brain tumour, do go to your GP if you have any concerns about your health. Now we're heading to Papua New Guinea, which is approaching its 50th anniversary of independence later this month. PNG in the South West Pacific Ocean is considered one of the most dangerous places in the world to be a woman

where two-thirds of women have experienced some form of sexual violence in their lifetime. That's almost twice the global average with the Prime Minister calling it an epidemic. Hena Joku is a journalist and activist who regularly speaks out about gender-based violence and Tahina Booth is a former elite athlete and the founder of Grascah project

who is trying to break the cycle of gender-based violence through sports. They joined Noola this week from Port Moresby, the capital of Papua New Guinea, and Nula began by asking Joku, why are the figures for gender-based violence so high? I think the figures we have for gender-based violence in Papua New Guinea are high because of multiple reasons. A lot of it is hidden behind what people allege is cultural. It's not. We also have the introduction of social media, technology, and I think mindset and attitude to the behavior of where women sit in society. And when we are mostly patriarchal,

that tends to look at women not so much as lesser than men, but I think less important. And so our roles are always deemed to be domesticated and not so much professional. And there is no one database that we have across the country that can solidify and verify what our data and statistics are. And so it's organizations like Tajina, it's the government itself, it's CSOs and NGOs that work in the space, human rights defenders, church network.

And it's all fragmented right now. And so different beliefs contribute to different reasons why the statistics of GBV are quite high in Papua New Guinea. Because in 2021, the parliament did issue 71 recommendations to address various domestic violence issues and also gender equality. issues. Have those recommendations been implemented, that is, four years ago? To my knowledge, I cannot accurately say if they have. I was present at the launch of the Shadow CEDA report that was put together by the civil society. Again, that had taken the country several years to do. The actual official report, the government is to produce, has not yet been done. And so I'm very unoptimistic that we have been able to tick off

any of those recommendations. So as it is for myself, I can't confidently say that we have checked off any of those boxes. But the Prime Minister, James Maripay, he has spoken out against violence against women. Yes, the government has. They do so mostly through the permanent parliamentary committee that was set up several years ago, at which I also spoke at the launch as a survivor. And where the government has been vocal through this avenue, Again, the, I guess, fragmentation with connectivity

and where the relevant agencies can better work together is not as cohesive as it can be. Let me bring in Tahina here. You started the Grass Skirt Project because of violence you had encountered as a child. What are you trying to do? Tell us a little bit about it. Really what we're seeing and what I'm seeing

is there are a lot of young men and boys and young girls and women that need, spaces of healing that need to be heard that need to be understood and sport is such a great unifier where we can create these spaces and start opening up and you know having those really positive dialogues because it does it changes their mindsets like on what is okay behavior and what's not okay behavior changing attitudes and so sport is a really really great way to do that. And, you know, something about our country too is that, you know, we have so many different cultures, you know, we've got over 850 languages, you know, so we need something

that is able to bind us together and create safer spaces for us to have these conversations and sport like art, like music is something, you know, that is enjoyable for everybody. So tell me, Tina, a little bit, what sport? How do you do it? Because boys are also taking part, I understand. Yes. So we work with any sport, but the main one that we do employ is our national game, which is rugby league, which is played by girls and boys. Girls actually, when I started officially playing and representing our country in 2017, but we've had rugby league, you know, since 1930s, which was actually brought in by Australia as a, like the colonist back then to segregate people, but we've taken it up as our own and we've made it into a

really fun game that everybody loves to play. And it's the way that we're able to engage men and boys. We live in a very patriarchal society and so we need something where boys don't feel and men don't feel like they're being singled out. I'm really curious of how that plays out. So you have little boys or young men that are in the sport. What are they telling you and how are you combating that when it comes to patriarchal attitudes? Everybody that sees the programs that we run, they know that we're about men and women as equal. So it's not a surprise when they come to one of our programs or one of our events. They understand that there is a code of conduct that they have to abide by. And then from there, because they're aware of the different

health programs, you know, that we offer or different partnerships that we have, whether it's with, you know, the tribal foundation or if it's with a hospital. They know that they're coming to learn about sport. They know they're coming to learn about good behaviour and access resources if needed. And that's where it's the learning between the peers. So it's kind of like sports the hook. And when we've got them captive, then they see all these other services that we have and they just attend.

So what has changed in behavior that you've seen with the boys or girls who have been with you? With what we've been doing, it's been really interesting. We started off collecting sports equipment from Australia and bringing it back home. Then from there, did a few surveys. We realized we were, you know, giving all the equipments to sports coaches. From there, we asked the sports coaches, what do you need? And they said we need access to gyms and training. Now, the sports coaches are the ones that have access to all the, the plus.

players. And so it's peer-to-peer learning. When we have young men come through, a lot of them, for example, don't understand that, you know, not getting consent and, you know, raping somebody is actually a criminal offence. And this is the first time for them to hear that. And so it's these types of discussions where they quickly realize, okay, that's actually illegal. One, I didn't know that, or two, I need to change. And so it's quite quick. But that point that you bring up, I mean, it's just, um, it will give so many of my listeners pause that they do not realize that rape is a criminal offence. Explain to me why that would be. Yeah, in some communities where like teaching around, teaching like consent, you know, how do you seek consent? How do you get consent? You know, cat calling, you know, as they say it in the West. Like, you know, we have a lot of that as well. And it's the way that it's played out is like, oh, you know, she likes it.

or she wants it. You know, and our women, you know, are taught to either just ignore or, you know, don't engage. But when it's persistent and we don't know how to say no or we feel frightened or, you know, threatened. I mean, it's all about power and control at the end of the day and who has the power and control. And so, you know, it's a whole nation education piece that we're doing. Are you hopeful? I absolutely am. I have to be.

You know, I believe that, you know, if we create these safer circles and start at the grassroots and work with the coaches, you know, work with the churches, work with schools and their parents, absolutely, you know, we definitely can make a, you know, a print. And this is what I do. I love my work. I love working with young men. And I love seeing, you know, the change in them. And when they realize that, you know, that they can absolutely, you know, be the leader that they want to be, Yeah, they inform their mates. And that's how, you know, we grow these young leaders

because they see others doing it as well. Tahina, Booth and Joku Hena there speaking to Nula. Now, many of you will remember the book Wild Swans. It came out in 1991 and became an enormous hit for the author, Young Chang. It was an epic family memoir that followed the lives of Young, her mother and grandmother through China's 20th century. It was banned and remains banned in mainland. China, but elsewhere, it gave an unprecedented insight into Chinese history, including the

impact of Chairman Mao, communism and the Cultural Revolution. Now, Young has written a sequel, Fly Wild Swans, which brings her family's story and events in China up to date. Young joined Nula this week, and she began by asking her, it's been 30 years since Wild Swans, why the sequel now? Well, you see, Wild Swans was published in the early 1990s. since then nearly half a century has gone by. And I just feel it's time to bring the stories of my mother and me and my family and that of China up to date. Because while swan ends in 1978 with me coming to Britain,

becoming one of the first Chinese to leave China to study in the West. A lot of things happened, a lot of dramatic events, and my life and the life of my mother have changed tremendously. And, of course, my grandmother had died in a cultural revolution, and so had my father. So I feel it's time to update our stories. But of course, you don't have to have read wild swans in order to understand fly wild swans. It's also about the past as well as today. Because 1978, as we know, almost 50 years ago, you came to London, you were 26. What do you remember of those first days in London?

I understand the only Western film you had seen was the Sound of Music. Yes, indeed. I had come from a country that had been completely isolated from the outside world. I had no idea what the West was like, how people lived. As you said, the only film I had seen was The Sound of Music, which I went to see, which I got this incredibly valuable tickets for. And I rode a borrowed bicycle for hours in a great wind to go and watch it in the open air. And I only read about half a dozen contemporary.

Western books. And it was like landing on Mars to have come to Britain. And you reminded me of a line in your book just when you talk about, you'd only read a few books that under Mao, the statement from the government was, the more books you read, the stupider you become. Yes, yes. I mean, you know, it sounds unbelievable, but for more than 10 years, there were no books in China. Books were burned across the country. I mean, no books on sale. And we only had Mao's little red book to read.

In those years, you know, museums were closed. Cinemas and the theaters were turned into quasi-prisons. And my mother was imprisoned for quite a few years in a former cinema. So China was a cultural desert. And it was all a part of the cultural revolution to try and rid itself of capitalist or traditional aspects in Chinese society and really stick the stake in the ground for communism. Well, I mean, I think actually it was more, kind of less grand than that. And it was really Mao's great part of his opponents. Because Mao had caused the great famine, the biggest famine in Chinese history,

about 40 million people died of starvation between 1958 and 1961. And the reason for the famine was Mao was exporting the food. He knew his people were dependent on the Soviet bloc to buy military industries. So he could be, he could, one, they dominate the world. And so there was a lot of opposition to that. And so much so that Mao decided to have his great purge, which happened in 1966.

So let us turn. So you are leaving all that and you come to the UK. I was also reading September, 1978. It's September now. I'm wondering, do you reflect on that time when the seasons change of how your life changed? Well, I mean, it was the most exciting first couple of years when I was in Britain, and I came with a group of 14 people. We were all wearing the Mao suit, and we were quite a sight in London streets, because we were not allowed to go out on our own.

We had to move in a group. But of course, I was immensely curious about the society, the new society. society, my wonderland. We were particularly banned from going into a pub because the Chinese translation for pub is Jiu-Bah, which suggested somewhere indecent with nude women gyrating. But I was torn with curiosity. I was dying to see it. I knew there was a pub across the road from the college.

and one day I darted across the road I pushed the door of the pub open and of course I saw nothing like that only some older men sitting there drinking beer I was rather disappointed but imagine my excitement everything here was new I was struck as well that you

hadn't seen never mind naked women you hadn't seen any public displays of affection between couples before you came really to London. I think you saw one person from Hong Kong, which wasn't part of mainland China, one time put their head on somebody's shoulder, and that was considered quite shocking.

What was it like when you came to London and you see people that are, I suppose, just much more sexually liberated? Well, there was the moment when I decided I must have my sexual liberation. so I obviously had a great time and I remember I was with my boyfriend because the rules relaxed

and although I was constantly breaking rules and I had a boyfriend and in those days we were told that if we had a foreign boyfriend we would be carted off back to China in the judezac and drugged. And so that was a huge taboo, but I broke that taboo. And I was with this lovely man.

And so I told him that when I was in China, a girlfriend told me that if you, because in those days, to lose your virginity was considered a crime. And I saw women being denounced for. being worn shoe, which means having sex outside. The worn shoe. Yes, a worn shoe. And so I was telling this man that in China, girls believed that if you had a relationship,

you could have an operation to sow your hymen back. And he was absolutely shocked. He said, what are you living in? Middle Ages. Why were you so brave, do you think? Because I'm thinking of this young woman coming from China with all the things that you had seen and, you know, being taken off in a jute sack might have been a rumor, but you do know that terrible things did happen to women. Well, I think I was so curious. I mean, I just simply could not suppress my curiosity. And I'd rather take risks.

I think that's sort of in my character both my mother and my grandmother were not contented with their lots and they took risks Let's talk about your mother for a moment She had this phrase She said to your father You are a good communist

But a rotten husband Do you want to tell us a little bit more About why she said that Well when my mother was giving birth to me and doctors said that it was going to be a dangerous birth. And my mother should be transferred to another city where they had the proper hospitals and specialists. My father was the communist governor of the region.

But he vetoed the suggestion because he said, as a communist, he mustn't give privilege to his wife. that's when my mother said you may be a good communist but you are a rotten husband and as it happened it wasn't a disaster I came out of her

a healthy baby of nine pounds and so that's when my mother was happy and forgave my father but so illustrative of how deeply he held his values for example within the Communist Party even to the detriment potentially of his wife

who he loved I want to speak a little bit more about your mother. I believe you saw her last in 2018. Yes. In fact, after my book, Wells Wong was published, the regime was relatively relaxed and tolerated me so I could still travel in China. But in 2005, when my biography,

written with my husband, John Halliday, was published, a biography of Mao, the regime wanted to ban me from going to China to see my mother. The British government, David Miliban, was the foreign secretary. He helped me and reached an agreement with Beijing to allow me to go to China to see my mother for 10 days or two weeks every year. But this changed when Xi Jinping came to power. And China became a dangerous place, particularly dangerous for me.

And one of the very first announcement he made was to make it a crime punishable by imprisonment. If you had insulted revolutionary leaders or heroes. And as the writer of Mao, who was regarded as the biggest hero. And of course, I would be, you know, thrown right into prison the moment I set foot on Chinese soil. So I couldn't risk this. But of course, it's sort of agonizingly painful because my mother is still living in Chengdu in China. And she is 94. She's in bad health.

And she's, you know, we're dying. But I couldn't go, I can't go and see her. And it's the price we have to pay for being honest, writing honest books. Young Chang. And Fly Wild Swans is out next week. Still to come on the program, Queen of the Dance Floor, Sophie Ellis Bexter. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast.

It's free via BBC Sounds. Now we've all heard of the flight or fight response in the face of danger, but there's also freeze and then there's fawn, also known as people pleasing or appeasing. Clinical psychologist Dr. Ingrid Clayton has written about this in her new book, Forning, Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back. Well, she joined Nula this week, and Nula started by asking her what fawning looks like in practice. So sometimes it looks like

smiling when you feel terrified. It could be flirting when you have no interest. It could be overextending yourself, volunteering, caretaking, soaking up all the shame in the relationship in order to maintain some level of relational harmony. It's interesting because we're not that familiar with the term, but we may be familiar with some of those actions that you describe there. But let us continue to expand on fawning a little bit for people. that are not familiar with it as well. You talk about people turning to the action of fawning when no other of the responses are safe options

because we've often heard fight, flight, freeze. Explain what's happening as you understand it. Yeah, so fawning does tend to be the last house on the block, essentially. And it's very common in relational trauma, which is synonymous with both complex trauma, childhood trauma. So if you look at childhood, for instance, a child who is being harmed by a caregiver, fighting back is likely going to make things worse, right? Their body has probably learned on occasion that when they try to have a voice or fight back, that it does in fact make things worse. If you

think of the flight response, where are they meant to run, right? We are reliant on our caregivers for longer than any other species. And complex trauma tends to be on good. going. So it's not an acute event, right? So when you think about something like the freeze response, while it's also a common one, fawning sort of allows you to get up and get out of bed and go to school every day. We have to figure out how to navigate these environments. And the fawn response allows us to do that very thing. So basically, you're in a difficult or a dangerous situation, some of those first response that we often think about when we're in danger as we are animals aren't going to work in that situation. So people have learned to fawn. You know,

I was very struck by your story that you tell in the book, very frankly, about being a young teen in the hot tub with your stepfather. And you recognize now that you had that fawning response. Yes. So, you know, I had experiences. I was 13 years old. in that story. And I had experiences with my stepdad being overtly aggressive. He could rage. You know, he was a drinker, and we were all familiar with sort of the flight response running to our rooms when you would hear the car coming down the driveway in the evenings. But on this night, I was sitting out in the hot tub and looking up at the stars and he came out to join me. It's the first time I recall feeling that same level of threat. But when he was actually actually, actually,

like nothing's going on here. I'm being quite friendly. I'd like to be your friend. And so the part of me that wanted him to be my friend was very grateful that he was extending me what felt like an olive branch. But my body knew something else was going on. And it was deeply confusing. It was confusing for many years. I now know that he was grooming me. This was typical grooming behavior. And I recall that I kept a very new tone. And I was like, what do you mean? And I was really endowing him with the best of intentions when my body knew that that was not what was happening. And I wanted to get out of the hot tub. I did not like this man, but I knew that my life was in his hands. I needed him to like me.

And listen, it's not just a physical threat when I say my life is in his hands. He held the power in our family. He made every decision. Right? If I was even allowed to leave the house, it was up to him. And so it equated to this very ingratiating behavior that was so incongruent with how I was feeling. And it led to what felt like a day in, day out experience of a chronic fawn response, which is so common for a lot of us and why ultimately, at the end of the day, we can start to confuse it even for our personality. right, or a choice. It is not a conscious choice. These are unconscious, reflexive behaviors that come online without our consent. The body chooses the response that it feels will work in that moment. It chooses it in a nanosecond. And then like me,

for people, when you have to do this to survive the day to day, you know, years later, I move out of that house. I drive hundreds and then ultimately thousands of miles away. the fawning pattern is still so active in me. It comes online even before I could potentially sense the threat, right? The body goes, I am not going to put myself in harm's way again. And I'm perpetuating dysfunctional relationships. I don't have a sense of, you know, self or autonomy or boundaries that I hear people see them exhibiting and hear them talking about like it's just no big deal. It's this rational, available choice to everyone. And it did not. feel available to me. Yeah, because you're hypervigilant, and so your defenses are up before you're even within a new relationship. I think the other aspect you mentioned, it's even on the cover of the book, do you avoid conflict, do you tend to take the blame, do you take care of others at the expense of

yourself? Many people just try to stop those behaviors and feel embarrassed or ashamed that they exhibit those behaviors, like that there's something wrong with them and they need to work on it. But you kind of turned that on its head when I was reading it, that some of this is done specifically to keep you safe. That's right. And so the idea that all these years throughout my life that someone could say, well, Ingrid, just set a healthy boundary, right? This is the thing that it's why the language of fawning a trauma-informed lens and language on these things is so important because it looks at safety and survival, which the body will always prioritize.

So essentially, a healthy fight response for me was snuffed out. As a kid, as a woman, you see this in so many contexts, right? People of color, we are disempowered. We are in systems of power everywhere we turn, and the body knows where it resides in the pecking order. So a healthy boundary is an aspect of a healthy fight response. We are meant to have these responses, right? But we're meant to have more flexibility within them. And to tell someone who's only experienced a chronic fawn response, to go ahead and just set a boundary, have a voice, raise your self-esteem,

you're asking them to let go of the one thing that has kept them safe. It's like, just take off all your skin, you know, and now walk through fire. This is what it feels like in the body. It feels like terror. And so we cannot start with changing these things in our relationships in the external world. That's at the end of a much longer process that must begin with starting with our internal sense of safety, something that a lot of us have maybe never experienced before. And I will come to unfauning in a moment.

But how much do you think fawning is tied up with being female? It's one of the biggest systems of power that I have to navigate is patriarchy, right? You think about my stepdad, another dynamic in that hot tub wasn't just his physical size, right? He was the head of our household, but he was also a man. And I've experienced this countless times. Girls from very young, I think, are taught to please and appease, which is another name for the fawning trauma response. It's like, be sweet, smile. give your creepy uncle a hug, you know. So we are primed for these behaviors. They are supported

out in the world. You talk there about people's experiences of it. But how can you unfawn if it's not as simple as I'm going to put some boundaries down? Well, I think honestly understanding this framework, like I said, it reduces the shame where you can finally see yourself from a place of I didn't actually have a low self-esteem problem. It's not about not loving myself. In fact, my body had a genius adaptation to a threatening environment, and that means I kind of love myself a whole lot, right? It's like it changes that whole paradigm.

And once someone is restored to that sense of, oh, I make sense. I make sense. It's the seed that we've planted to be able to build now of an entire, entirely different relationship with oneself. The old paradigm continues to say, you're broken, go sort of get fixed and get a hold of yourself. What I'm saying is you make perfect sense. Let's start there and build from that moment. And there's a lot of trauma therapies and practical things that I can talk about. But ultimately, this is the thing that matters the most. It's taking this external orientation to the world and the environment and saying, do you give me permission?

Do you validate me? Do you like me? Right? Like we're so oriented to the external world and going, even just pausing for a moment. And I often put my hand on my heart and I go, what do I think, right? What do I believe about me? What do I notice in my body more importantly? because the body keeps the score, as they say,

and it's also the biggest truth teller, because my mind might be, my thoughts might be going, well, you need to smile, you need to take care of them. You can't say that thing. You can't disagree. But notice what I'm experiencing in my body. If I can notice even for a moment, the terror or the numbness, whatever it is, I can now be present to it.

How can we take care of ourselves when we're not even present? to ourselves to begin with. Dr. Ingrid Clayton there. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard here, the BBC Action Line page is online with links to support organisations. Now, Sophie Ellis Bexter's murder on the dance floor went viral on TikTok a couple of years ago after Emerald Fennell used it in a key scene in the film Saltburn.

That resurgence, along with her popular kitchen discos that got a lot of us through COVID lockdowns, set the scene for her much-anticipated new album, Perry Menopop. while Sophie join me to tell me all about it. I really like getting older and happily you and I are about the same age so I'm hoping this would resonate a little bit but I think in a lot of ways I'm better at being in my 40s

than I was at being in my 20s and my relationship with music is as strong as ever but also with all the people that surround me my family, my friends, the people I work with there's all these lovely foundations there and it's allowed me to feel safe and still have lots of fun so yeah I felt pretty optimistic

and uplifted by that when I was in the studio and I fed all of that joy into the veins of perimenop. It is joyful. What's it about? So stay on me. It's actually about, I thought of Richard, my husband.

We just had our 20th wedding anniversary. Congratulations. Thank you. And I thought about that nice feeling when you're out with someone and you know that you're going to go home with them and you feel kind of if you see anyone, you know, looking over at them, you're like,

but they're coming home with me and it's a nice feeling. So yeah, that's all baked in there. It is a brilliant pop album. And that was just the same. single, the whole album is brilliant. Ecstatic songs, really joyful, but you called it Peri Menopop. Was there any part of you that was like fearing,

putting the word in the title? Well, I think it's kind of absolutely apt that Peri Menopopop, which is easily my most sort of balshy, bold to album title, has actually come at a time when I think you do start shedding that worry about what other people think a little bit. And I felt like it was so intrinsic to the song

my perspective where I found myself that my age had to be woven in there somehow and I was trying to think I was actually like looking up sort of nicknames for middle-aged women you know like biddy or if I'd been Australian it would have been she like 100% but here we don't really have an equivalent that worked and a girlfriend and I were songwriting and she said oh perimenopop and it became our little joke and then I texted her a while back and I was like I'm actually going to do it and and it made me feel like, no, I don't need to pretend to be anything other than exactly who I am and where I'm at. So it sort of shed me of any of that. Also, lovely little word that I think is going to turn into a thing.

Let's see. Let's see. Can we talk about the success of murder and the dance film? 100%. Whole new generation found it from Saltburn. And that moment brought you not just to a whole new generation, but a whole new market. America, I can't believe you'd never been to America before. Yeah, the beginning of last year I'd never done so much as a radio interview in America.

And then I found myself touring there, culminating in New Year's Eve on the Dick Clark show with the ball drop in Times Square and all the ticket tape, just wild. But also such a glorious example of how my relationship with music has been kept so alive because it still has the ability to surprise me, which keeps me on my toes. And also a glorious example of how your 40s can have a completely new moment. Exactly. We're so led to believe, like you said, your 20s and 30s. were very different, that your 20s

it's what it's all about and particularly in your industry. Very much so. That was very much the rhetoric when I got started and as I reached my late 20s I could feel the tide changing and I felt like I was on borrowed time a little bit and in some ways that did me a lot of favours because I explored lots of other things. I've spent the last

decade making more sort of singer-songwriter albums that were, you know, I had the ability to explore lots of other styles of songwriting and I feel better for it. But you're right, it's so nice to have such a great example of how wrong that that rhetoric, that narrative was. And also, I just wanted to sort of give that giddiness back into the record. I wrote the album in amongst all of that headiness, you know, this adventure with an old friend,

murder on the dance floor. So I just was feeling really happy. That first came out in 2001. Yeah. My God, that is so shocking when you kind of, it's one of those things that dates you. Really long ago. Really? And then I sing to crowds and I'm like, none of you were born then.

But, yeah, and it's a smash on social media. A friend of mine, his daughter was having a 60th birthday, and all the girls were singing along to it. It was, like, joyful. But, you know, it's a social media rage. How do you deal with any sort of criticism that might be coming your way now? Like, it's a different world.

I feel like, look, I started singing in the 90s. You had to have a little suit of armour. I was baked in the oven at a high temperature back then. And that really, you know, the thing is about, anybody critic. Firstly, as an artist, you're always your own best critic. I could write my own bad review when I was younger from every single thing I did. I'd be doing it while I was on stage. And that is something that's really got quieter and quieter as I've got older and more experienced and trust in the process. So I think those things don't bother me. But also, if you're

going to believe in the bad stuff, you have to also believe in the good. And I just choose to kind of stay in my own little blissful ignorance with all of it really. Joyful, joyful bubble. Yeah, plus it's that old Oscar Wild thing. It's better being talked about than not at all. And actually for an artist, the bit when no one is interested, that is the bit that plays the hardest on your soul. Because music is dialogue. If you're putting things out there and no one's sending it back to you, the energy's just gone.

So all of it, all the, you know, the 16-year-olds at the party, they're putting fresh energy into something and they own a part of it. It's interesting because when I was thinking about that question, I thought, you know, this is Sophia Lysbexter who was making music in the 90s and the early 2000s. And that was not a pleasant place for women in the music industry. So when you were saying, explain more about what that experience was like and how it's sort of your shoulders are broader

and maybe your resilience is quite strong. Yeah, and I think particularly in the 90s, it was all about being cool, being credible. You weren't supposed to be smiley. You weren't even really supposed to show you having that much fun, actually. And I think I just felt like it was a bit sink or swim, really. And some of the questions I was asked and some of the ways I were interviewed and the experiences I had,

I think I was talking to someone about the other day and they were quite shocked by some of the things I'd experienced and questions I'd been asked when I was a teenager. Go on. I don't know, about my favourite sexual position. I did an interview once where in the paper they'd taken upskirt photographs of me as I was talking and put them in the broadsheets.

You know, things that now aren't even legal. But it's led to resilience. And one thing, if I've got any talent, it's actually knowing the good people. And I've really stuck with this amazing community of people who are all the aunts and uncles of murder on the dance floor, that era, still work with me now. And that, I mean, doesn't it for everybody, your group of friends, they reflect you back at yourself and you think, these are good people to be around. So I'm just

going to keep my counsel with them. And during lockdown, you became our good person to be around because of your joyful kitchen discos. You let us into your world in that incredible disco capsule. And we saw a snippet of your life. You've just mentioned, you know, 20 years, married, congratulations. Five children. Five boys, Sophie. It has never seemed quite as many children as it did during lockdown. Honestly, it could have been 25.

But yeah, there we were. And actually the community that came out of the kitchen discos for Richard and I made all the difference. It was provided such tonic. And again, I think it actually made me respect pop music that bit more because sometimes when the world is heavy, you can think, oh, am I silly for the fact that a good song can make me feel better? We need it, don't we?

Good advice from Sophie Ellis Bexter there and her new album, Perimenopop, is out now. That's it from me. Do enjoy the rest of your weekend and don't forget, Nula is back in the hot seat on Monday. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time.