Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Dawn French, Alexis Ohanian, Ladies loos on stage

Episode Date: May 24, 2026

Comedian, actor and writer Dawn French is best known as one half of one of the UK’s most successful comedy double acts, and as the fictional vicar Geraldine Granger. She’s also a bestselling author, and her latest book, Enough, is her fifth novel — her eighth book in total. It blends dark humour with some tougher themes she thinks are important to explore. She joined Nuala to discuss.Best known as the co-founder of Reddit, Alexis Ohanian is now turning his focus to the future of women’s sport. Once overlooked and underfunded, it is now undergoing rapid change. Alexis is today announcing he's bringing his all-female track and field meet series, Athlos, to London. He tells Anita Rani why, and talks about being married to one of the most successful and well known sports stars of all time - Serena Williams.We discuss a new play that unfolds entirely in the ladies loos. April Hope Miller wrote and performs in ‘Flush’, it was a hit at the Edinburgh Fringe and it’s just opened at the Arcola Theatre in London. April and co-star Jazz Jenkins tell Nuala why the real drama on any night out is always to be found in the women’s toilets. And why it took an ensemble cast of five, playing no less 16 different characters between them, to capture something universal about women's lives.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells

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The best drama, period. Welcome to the grown-up world. Stream the best British period dramas, including The Lady, inspired by a true story of murder and scandal. and from the world of Jane Austen, the other Bennett sister, only on Britbox. Start your free trial at Britbox.com. Live BBC Radio is now available on BBC.com and the BBC app. Get global perspectives, rich conversation, and immediate reaction to breaking news stories wherever you are.

Listen to the BBC World Service and BBC Radio 4 stations 24-7. Visit BBC.com slash audio or download the BBC app to start listening. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the program. Coming up, Dawn French, comedian, actor and also best-selling novelist on her latest book, Enough, in which she talks about aging and deciding when to die. Alexis Ohanian, the co-founder of Reddit, who also happens to be married to Serena Williams,

on bringing his all-female track and field meat series Athlos to London. And a new play called Flush, one night, one club. Sixteen women passing through the ladies' lues with all the confessions and connections that can bring. Now, she's one half of the UK's most famous female comedy duo. She's played the much-loved Vicar of Dibley, and of course she is a best-selling writer. Dawn French's fifth novel is out this week, entitled Enough.

It's described as darkly funny and has some serious and difficult themes she thinks needs unpublished. and discussing. Well, Dawn did just that in the studio this week with Noola, and she started by asking her if she was feeling nervous about how it might be received. Nervous? Yes, probably. I mean, I think I'm as excited and nervous as I am about each of the novels I've written, partly because you are alone with it, of course, for months writing it,

and suddenly it's there for everybody else. And that's what you do it for. I mean, that's the very reason you do it. And yet you're nervous. It's like sort of showing your baby to people. You just don't want anyone to say it's a bit ugly. It's not an all ugly. Your baby is very beautiful, Dawn.

Thank you. And let's talk about it. I mean, really the person I come back to is Etta, who's the protagonist, who's the central character in enough. Will you tell us a little bit about her? Yeah. Etta is a piece of work, really. She's 68.

and she's a content person really. She's mentally well. She's physically pretty well. But she's made a decision. And I'm going to read a little bit from the beginning of the book for you, which will sort of set it in context. And one morning Etta wakes up

and she wakes up her family that are staying with her, her son, her daughter, her daughter-in-law, her granddaughter. And she takes them down through her garden to the beach at the bottom. from the garden. Settling guys, don't burn your feet, Etta directed her beloved's to sit around the

rim of the hollow. As they sat, huddled together, the sky slowly opened up, offering the tip of the sun to the morning, flooding the wide open beach with orange light, Etta's favourite time of day, dawn. Etta eventually took a very deep indeed breath and said, I'm so happy we're all together to share this lovely sight. I want you all to know that in this exact moment, I truly love you all. Oh, mum, shut it. Dolly laughed as she attempted to nip her mother's familiar cheeriness in the bud.

I want you to remember the vast joy of this moment. You will need to remember it often, Etta said. This is a before moment, she thought. All other moments from now on for them. will be after moments. You see, the thing is, today is my last day, she whispered. They looked at each other, confused. Hey?

Your last day? Before what? Dolly wanted to know. Before I go. Where? Where are you going? You're going back to India on holiday. You better take your emotium this time. Vernon reminded them all of that awful time Etta had terrible dysentery

and how she had ended up in hospital. Yeah, Dolly Rememmedora Cork. They all giggled, except Etta. No, she said quietly. Today is my last day alive. I won't be here tomorrow. So that's the beginning. Yes, and we're brought straight into it, like boom, from the beginning.

And actually right until the end, you keep us guessing. But, you know, I was reading it, and I immediately was like 60 years. I was like, what age is darn French, right? Yeah, that is my age. And I was like, do we need to have a word? But what was the impetus, the catalyst, to think about this very vivacious, funny woman, surrounded by a loving family,

living in a beautiful part of the world, it appears, to think about that she wants to end her life. Her wonderful life. Yeah. Well, I'm 68. And I don't think anyone who is my age doesn't think about what is to come. And I started to toy with the idea of what if somebody really went to extremes here.

And I have a little bit, I think, of permission to write about this. I am the child of suicide. I have to clarify that what happened with my dad was very different to what I'm writing about here with Etta. My dad had very serious depression. And, you know, this was when I was 19 that that happened. and it exploded my family. It was the most dreadful thing. And I sort of, you know,

I have spent a lifetime wishing my dad had had the talking therapy that he clearly needed. But what happened with my dad, which was so drippingly griefful, the whole thing was just awful. You know, I've lived for a long time now, thinking about it.

And I think I've been through all the stages of grief around it, ending up as you, you know, mature, I hope, well, I'm sort of mature, not entirely. You know, I start to wrap understanding around what was going on for my dad. He must have been in seven kinds of hell to do what he did. But also my dad was a very cheerful, loving, very engaged, happy father. But he dealt with those awful black dogs. But I sort of think that because I have considered suicide

and because I want to take that shame and that, you know, it is a sin still. You know, it's a dreadful thing. And I want to remove all of that. Now, I'm not advocating this as a plan, but I think that Etta, as I put myself in her character to consider this, she has decided that she's going to excuse her kids from the duty of whatever the tough bit is that is to come, which is, you know, that last bit of life.

Now, who knows how long it will be? Who knows how prickly it will get? She's a bit of a control freak and she's decided to control the end of her life as much as she has controlled all the rest of it. It does provoke so many thoughts. You talk about suicide there and you say I considered suicide meaning every iteration of it,

be it for your father, who was a young man, he was 45, I think 68 is young as well, might I add. But with Etta, we see this very cool, calm and collected woman who feels she wants to spare her children the messy part that can be the end of life. We had debates in the office about whether Etta was selfish or selfless. Exactly. That's the whole point of, and you know, when I set out to write this book, I knew that this would be my main thrust, that Etta has made a decision.

She's considered it at great length, and she believes that she is right to do this. and she believes she's being selfless. She, and what she decides to do, instead of enact her plan and leave a note for her children, she decides to tell them so that they have 24 hours in which to ask her anything they want to ask and she can explain herself. So this is her living suicide note to them. But, of course, her kids had plenty to say.

And when I started to write it, I honestly didn't know what the ending was going to be. And that was my challenge to myself. I thought, okay, I'm going to climb into Etta's brain, which is difficult because this is not my thinking at all. But this is a woman who has decided something. And then I'm going to climb into the brains of these kids who have been thrust into this awful panicky situation

and have 24 hours to dissuade their mum. And yes, you keep us guessing to the very last page. I do. To the very last page. And I'm very sorry that you went through that as a 19-year-old young woman as well. It must have been, I'm sure, had so many ramifications or consequences.

But you do come from this as a place of authority, I think we can say. Thank you. But I suppose what it was also, even though this is about suicide, it was also making me think about assisted dying. And I know you have been vocal on that as well. But you say with a thousand caveats. Yeah, I do. I mean, listen, I don't know enough about the process of it.

To me, it seems like a no-brainer so long as family lawyers, doctors, everyone has agreed and that the person has agency over this. Having witnessed the death of my mother and other older people in my life, I have no doubt that it is the right thing to do. And I cannot understand why we are so. merciless about it. But of course we have to wrap all kinds of legislation around it. And there will

be many that of course disagree vehemently with you. I understand that. Because even going back to your book, we see immediately Dolly, her daughter, Vernon, her son. So you know, at times there cannot be agreement on certain issues and so that's I suppose where the law comes in.

But with this, as a parent, as a mother in this particular case, it could raise the question, do you ultimately belong to your children by having them. Have you entered into a contract that allows them to have a say over your life and decisions? Who does your life belong to?

I would like to believe it belongs solely to you. Really? I would like to believe that, but I think I know that when you have children, it's different. It's a sort of octopus with long tentacles, isn't it?

And you have, you know, you have brought people into the world and they have rights. And they're her children in this book. Explain that. They want the right to look after her. But maybe, maybe the journey through this book means that they have to wake up a little bit

as to where her state of mind is and why she's feeling like this. Dawn French there. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard discussed in our interview, you can go to the BBC Action Line website where you'll find links to support groups. She was the sister who went on notice. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired.

Now, her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's pride and prejudice comes a new Britbox original drama. Mary, you will flourish. Based on the best-selling novel, The Other Bennett Sister, now streaming only on Britbox. Watch for the free trial at Britbox.com. Live BBC Radio is now available on BBC.com. and the BBC app.

Get global perspectives, rich conversation, and immediate reaction to breaking news stories wherever you are. Listen to the BBC World Service and BBC Radio 4 stations 24-7. Visit BBC.com

slash audio or download the BBC app to start listening. Britbox has the best of British TV, period. Let's get started. The best mystery, period. I like a good detective story. The best romance, period. This is a big.

that will open the heart. Miss Mary Bennett. The best drama, period. Welcome to the grown-up world. Stream the best British period dramas, including the lady, inspired by a true story of murder and scandal. And from the world of Jane Austen, the other Bennett sister, only on Britbox. Start your free trial at Britbox.com.

Now, once overlooked and underfunded, women's sports is now undergoing rapid change. My next guest wants to be at the heart of that change, launching a global, Women's Sport Initiative, which will, for the first time in the UK, give athletes a stake in the business they're at the centre of. I was joined by Alexis O'Hanian, who has a very impressive CV, starting life as the co-founder of the online forum site Reddit, with more than 120 million daily users, shaping how conversations and communities form on the internet. In recent years, he's turned his attention to women's sports. This week announcing he's bringing his all-female track and field Meat Series Athlos to London.

I began by asking him to tell us more. So this is a chance to put these incredible athletes on the grandest stage possible. You know, we all tune in for them during the Olympics. And the thing I couldn't get out of my head was we were wrapped with attention, the biggest brands of the world, fullest stadiums, millions and millions of viewers. And then these athletes seem to disappear for the four years in between. And one of the things that motivated me to start Athlos was then when I spoke to some of these athletes, Shakari Richards and Gabby Thomas, Tardavis Woodhaw, I found out how little money they made from their championships in between.

Before Athlos, I think the top prize was $30,000. And so we said, okay, we'll double that. And let's see what happens. And we've now had back-to-back meets in New York over the last two years. Millions of people have tuned in, sell-out crowds, tons of just entertainment delight, some records. broken and a spectacle. And we knew if we wanted to go global and really build this league out, the place we had to go first was here in London.

Why is that? Well, this is a very rabid fan base when it comes to athletics, period. I actually saw a Diamond League meet here in London a couple of years ago, and I was blown away by the scale of it. And then, you know, I've actually spent a lot of time here in London over the last couple of years. I bought 10% of the Chelsea Women's Football Club, and I've really, really enjoyed all of that and come to just really truly admire the level of fandom for sport broadly, but of course specifically for athletics.

Absolutely. And women's sport. And as you just mentioned, you made that to 26.5 million dollar investment in Chelsea women's football club last year. And you've spoken about rewriting the business model around women's sports. So what's broken with the current one? Well, look, the first thing I noticed was actually back in 2019 with the Women's World Cup, where similar to what I saw with athletics and athletics. the Olympics, the whole world paid attention to these footballers every four years. And especially

United States, most Americans consider football or soccer women's sport because the American women have been so dominant in the American men, less so. And it just didn't make sense to me that these amazing athletes would get all this attention and then sort of go, go silent for another few years in between when they had millions of followers on social media. In my world, spending 15, 16 years building and turning around Reddit, the free market of attention is the internet, social media. And at the end of the day, you might not think these athletes are worth the investment and certainly a lot of the status quo didn't.

But when you looked at the followers, when you looked at millions of people tuning in to see what these athletes are talking about, what they're having for breakfast, what they care about, that attention is valuable. And that was the disconnect I saw on the market back in 2019 when I started Angel City in the United States. And certainly what I saw was the potential for the Chelsea Women's Football Club when I invested here. There is a huge opportunity because sport traditionally, with the exception of tennis, has missed the value of the women's game.

Right. No one would debate that women's tennis is any less valuable or interesting or compelling than men's. Absolutely. And so, you know, I don't think that could be, I don't think that necessarily means every single sport will end up that way. But I certainly think there are a tremendous number of sports where the women's game can be as valuable as the men's. And that's where I've been putting my money. And as you've said, you know, it kind of inspires a generation and we enjoy watching it. And, you know, you're speaking to a very converted audience here.

How much of this is about the sport and how much of it is about money, though? You are an entrepreneur after all. I look, obviously, I'm, everyone knows. I'm married to Serena Williams. I have two daughters. I'm very public about where my values lie and how motivated I am to see this business success through. because I want to create that world that my daughters will grow up in. And that is all true.

And yet I still frame all of these investments through the lens of business, not because I'm a soulless capitalist, but because if you can prove that these things work, not just work, but thrive in the market, you now have your mic drop moment for getting the things you want accomplished, you know, in society, right? You can make a change. You can actually push that. When I think about, you know, if I spent the last five, six, seven years investing the same dollars in, you know, a nonprofit to talk about how important it is for, you know, girls to get into sports or for women's sports to be supported, I think it could have made an impact. And that's not to begrudge, you know, Billy Jean King is one of the reasons why I can do what I do, right? And the nonprofits have a role to play. But when I looked at what was missing back in 2020, it was proving the business model out. And once you've done, that, right? We've had, you know, you've seen the valuations explode in the United States. There's now a billion dollar women's basketball team in the WNBA. You know, these are rooted in real revenue

numbers. And once that happens, you know, you'd have to be some kind of curmudgeon to not think that these women deserve what they're getting now. We don't like to define people by their spouses here on Women's Out, but you are married to one of the most successful sports stars of all times, Serena Williams. So I just wonder how much you've learned about the world of women's sport from her. It's funny. She actually tried to talk me out of it when I said I was going to start

a women's football club in the States. And it wasn't because she didn't want to see it exist in the world. In fact, we were at Wimbledon watching our women, you know, do a great job at the World Cup. And I was sort of remarking to her as Little Olympia was running around

in her Alex Morgan jersey. Like, wouldn't it be nice one day if she played? And without missing a beat, Serena said, well, not until they pay her what she's worth. And so she had lived firsthand through, you know, the troubles of an industry that was not yet ready for her to ascend in the way that she did. And all the things she had to deal with along the way, you know, so much of women's sports has been mired, I think, both in people with good intentions

who I think have held it back because they looked at it as a charity. And they thought, oh, well, of course, we'll do this. This is like a nice thing for the girls to look up to. or from people who just simply didn't think that it was as valuable and so didn't put it in the places where it could get the airtime and the coverage. But I knew firsthand what was possible because if you look in the last 10 years of U.S. Open finals, more Americans have tuned in, I think, for seven of the 10 finals for the women than the men. So it goes without saying certainly the United States and the UK, there's real parity here in the sport. and what that took was excellence and equity. It was reported earlier this year that Serena's re-entered the drug testing pool,

hinting that she might be coming back. Is she going to come back? Can you confirm this? She's a hero to so many of us. We're definitely not making any news here. But I think it's really telling and it's certainly heartening to see how excited people were

even at seeing that news. But no, I'm, look, I'm locked in on Athlos focused there. We're not making any news. But I do think, you know, there was a moment for me. The reason why I knew it was time for Chelsea was because the women had won back-to-back euros. And, you know, I understand, look, this country invented the sport of football. There's a tremendous pride in a tradition here. And that was the moment. The back-to-back

euros was the moment where I knew, okay, I need to now invest in English women's football and in the WSL because, again, you see this shift in the consciousness. When a group of school kids, girls and boys, get to go to school feeling so incredibly proud about bringing it home twice, like dominance. Now, again, you start to change perceptions. Yes. And it starts to really resonate that women's football is just as exciting, just as dynamic, just as important. And Alexis, it's been a fascinating conversation, but you are taking on a huge venture. So I'm going to ask you a question that lots of women get asked, but I don't think a lot of men get asked.

Do you ever suffer with imposter syndrome? And how do you get your work-life balance? I mean, who is looking after the kids when you're so busy? In the grand scheme of things, that is an amazing way to be able to make a living. And I get so much joy from it that it never is too hard to go all in on. And then to the other point, you know, I've been so blessed, you know, as many accolades as Serena has on the court in business, she's an even better mother to our two children than she is. as an athlete.

Yeah. And so we ebb and flow, you know, when she was on tour, I was able to build my firm from a kind of default remote standpoint so that I could basically be wherever she and our daughter were. And so I could travel and that was again, the benefit of being an entrepreneur, especially in tech, was I could orient my life and my business around our family's needs as she's retired.

She's now been able to basically do the same for me. And so again, it ebbs and flows. It's never perfect. Don't get me wrong. But all those things help tremendously. And, you know, it also doesn't hurt. I've got my mother-in-law right up the street, father-in-law right up the street. Community. My dad snowbirds with my stepmom every winter.

So we got plenty of family around too. Alex O'Haney in there. And the London debut of Athlos will be at the Stoenek Stadium on September the 18th. Next. The creators of a new play that unfolds entirely in the ladies lose. It's been described as a fast-moving ensemble comedy drama in praise of the women who hold your hair back and hype you up. But if you've ever hung out in the women's toilets on a night out, you'll already know what to expect. They're the place we go to escape that awkward moment, to recharge, to sob with a friend, or to get that much-needed ego boost from a total stranger. In short, all of life is there, women's lives in particular. April Hope Miller wrote the play and is one of the five-hour. actors who bring it to life, playing 16 characters between them, and Jazz Jenkins is one of her co-stars. Well, they joined Noola this week, and she began by asking April, why set it in the women's toilets?

I think the women's lose just have, like, such a huge amount of dramatic potential by virtue of the nature of the space, the kind of context of the night out. I think it's very rare that in theatre, TV, film, a lot of the time we see women in. their most unfiltered form, like their most raw, true form. And that means, like, for all the wonderful ways that that looks, but also for the messy and flawed ways that that looks as well. And the bathroom is, like, really and truly one of the few spaces that I think women are just completely without inhibitions, you know, that they are entirely themselves and they don't have to perform. And I think that's what makes that space so special. What about those conversations that you recount

that women are having in the toilets. You know, a couple of weeks ago, we had Holly Walsh on the program. She's the co-creator of Amanda Land. And she talked about, you know, she'll sit in cafes, listen to people's conversations and write the dialogue down word for word.

We were just wondering, have you been, you know, sitting in a toilet cubicle scribbling away? Not exactly. I think that's a bit, it seems a bit strange. but I've, a lot of the characters are, and the dynamics are based on people in my life,

people that I know, people that I've met. And, you know, these larger than life characters who, you know, will kind of, like, bumble into the space and then, you know, I might wake up with some, like, incomprehensible gibberish on my notes on my phone. Yes, yes. But I think it's more like, I kind of have come away from these things with a feeling or a sense of, like,

a type of person or a character that I've met. and then it kind of comes from that, I'd say. Why do you think the Luz are such a safe space? I think when you're in this environment, it doesn't matter who you are, where you've come from, what you're doing. You are all this, like you're all here. You're all the same. You're all kind of brought together by these sets of circumstances.

I also think there's an element of it being a transitory space, which explores something interesting when a play or a film or a piece of media takes place in a moment where someone doesn't believe that they're arriving somewhere. So I think we often have... It's fleeting. Yeah, it's fleeting.

And it seems unimportant because it's just a brief moment where you're jumping in and then jumping out. But actually the most important things in our lives happen in these moments where we're not expecting anything big to happen. And I think that that is why it's right for such dramatic conflict and intimate moments.

Yeah, yeah. Because no one expects to be there and yet so much story happens. I also think that people don't expect to like retain necessarily retain a friendship or a communication or a bond with the person that they meet and that's why it's kind of like in the same way that I think you can go on holiday and have like a summer fling yes yeah you put everything into it it's like you know that these are just a moment finite yes and a moment in time exactly and jazz you're the only actor

who gets to play one role yeah that's that's billy tell us a little bit about her uh yeah um Billy is a young American journalist who's brand new to London. And we catch her during the events of Flusch on a night out for a work due. So the office is celebrating and coming out on this night. And she's there to sort of find her community in this new city. And Billy experiences a traumatic event at the club and ends up seeking refuge in the women's toilets. And we watch her night unfold as she reckons with. the events at the evening, both herself and then in community with others. April's given me

such a gift in this role, being able to explore someone in such a deep way because I'm the only actor who plays one character. I not only get to explore her, but I get to explore her relationship to 15 other characters. And so I actually know so much about who this woman is and we get to see so many versions of her in the different relationships in the toilet. And I also think, like from a craft standpoint in the actor's perspective, it's been an interesting journey having to sort of hold my own space in sort of maybe a different genre at times. Yes, that's what I'm thinking about. It's not unbalanced, but in the sense of the weight that you're carrying perhaps compared

to the teenage girls that we can talk about in a moment that are flitting in and out of the lose. It's interesting because my initial fear about performing the role is that perhaps I would be throwing off the dynamic of the show. You know, we've got four 16-year-olds who have snuck into the club and you hear their kind of fears and worries on the night out. And then Billy comes in having experienced something quite terrible. But I think what we're uncovering in that contrast

is the real truth of what it is to be a woman and also the truth of a night out, which is there are some people having truly the best moments of their lives, sat alongside people who are experiencing, you know, life-changing moments. And I actually think that's the honesty of it. Where did the teenage girls come from? They shouldn't be in the club. I can't remember what age they are, but they're milking.

Yeah, they're 15 and 60. Where do they come from? They are heavily, heavily, heavily, heavily influenced by my own school friends, by the dynamics. I experienced at school and all of the ridiculous and hilarious, but also quite concerning things that kind of went along with being that age and being so, like, desperate for kind of validation. And approval. You know, it's...

Because it kind of, it shows at that point with those particular girls the importance of the boys' role. And once the boys arrive, the girls are meant to kind of, I don't know, slip into line, so to speak. Yeah, for sure. I also think their naivity and also their complete refusal to sort of acknowledge the seriousness of so many situations and so many topics that they're discussing,

I think is really symptomatic of what it is to be a young woman. April Hope Miller and Jazz Jenkins. there and flush is on at London's Arcola Theatre until the 6th of June. Well, that's it from me. On Monday for the Spring Bank holiday, we're putting our heads in the clouds and going in search of wonder. To lead us on this quest, we have the award-winning children's author and academic Catherine Rundle, Dr Jean Bennett, the scientists whose medical breakthrough recently restored the sight of a six-year-old girl, and Jeanette Kahn, the first ever female boss of Wonder Woman, publisher, DC Comics. Enjoy the rest of this sunny bank holiday.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. She was the sister who went unnoticed. A daffodil might look plain next to a lily, but on its own there is much to be admired. Now her greatest chapter is yet to come. The most important thing is to be yourself. From the world of Jane Austen's pride and prejudice

comes a new Britbox original drama. Mary, you will flourish. Based on the best-selling novel, The Other Bennett. sister, now streaming only on BritBox. Watch with a free trial at Britbox.com. Live BBC Radio is now available on BBC.com and the BBC app. Get global perspectives, rich conversation, and immediate reaction to breaking news stories wherever you are.

Listen to the BBC World Service and BBC Radio 4 stations 24-7. Visit BBC.com slash audio or download the BBC app to start listening.