Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Dawn French, Shirley Ballas, Violinist Esther Abrami, Pelvic Pain

Episode Date: October 14, 2023

Dawn French has been making people laugh as a writer, comedian and actor, for more than 30 years. Her celebrated shows include French and Saunders, The Vicar of Dibley, and Jam and Jerusalem. She joins Emma Barnett to discuss her new book about the hilarious gaffes that she has made in life, as part of her one-woman mission to celebrate what it means to be gloriously, messily human, rather than striving for Instagram-style-perfection.It’s one of the things we’re most embarrassed to talk about – pain when having sex. This is something that Professor Katy Vincent, academic gynaecologist, and Dr Lydia Coxon, researcher in Pain in Women, are hoping to change. They join Emma alongside BBC presenter Sophie Law to talk about an open panel they held to try and get women to talk about their pelvic pain, and address the taboo around talking about periods, sex and women’s pelvic health.'My Boyfriend Lives with with My Husband,' was the intriguing headline of an article in the Guardian newspaper recently. While Caroline and the children she shares with her husband Niel live in Cheltenham, Neil is living with Caroline's boyfriend in Scotland. Both Caroline and Niel describe their unconventional family living arrangements to Emma, they explain how it came about and why it works for them.The new BBC drama series The Reckoning has started on BBC One. It tells the story of Jimmy Savile, who for decades was one of the UK’s most influential celebrities forging friendships with politicians and royalty and raising millions for charity. But after his death in 2011, it transpired he was also one of the country’s most prolific sexual predators, abusing hundreds of people, many of them children. The series, which stars Steve Coogan as Jimmy Savile, explores how he was able to hide in plain sight and use his celebrity status, powerful connections and fundraising activity to gain uncontrolled access to vulnerable young people. Sam Brown was abused by Savile from the age of 11. Her story is depicted in episode 3 of the series, and she speaks to Emma.Violinist Esther Abrami was handpicked by Julian Lloyd Webber as one of 30 under 30 to watch, and she is the first classical musician to win the ‘Social Media Superstar’ category at the Global Awards. With more than 400,000 followers on TikTok, Esther joins Emma to discuss her new album, Cinema.Shirley Ballas is best known for being one of the judges on BBC Strictly Come Dancing and her stellar career in Latin dance that earnt her the title, ‘Queen of Latin’. She joins Krupa Padhy to talk about Strictly, the menopause and her new book, Murder on the Dancefloor.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Hanna Ward Studio Manager: Tim Heffer

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. A very good afternoon and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. I'm Krupa Bharti. This is the programme each Saturday where we gather the best interviews from the week and pop them all in one place for you to listen to. Coming up this afternoon, head judge from Strictly Come Dancing, Shirley Ballas, on what it's like to be part of the show. Well, Strictly Come Dancing is a phenomenon, isn't it?

I mean, it's for all the family. I get little tweets and videos every week of the two-year-olds and the little ones and grandpa. Everybody gives their opinion and I just love it. Plus, as a new BBC drama about Jimmy Savile is released, we hear from a survivor of his abuse about the lifelong impact it has on her. And violinist Esther Abrami and why she's encouraging young women to take up classical music. When I was out of university, that's the moment I realised in 15 years,

I'd never studied a single piece written by a woman. And it was like a very shocking realisation. All that and more to come. Grab a cup of tea and settle in. Now, Dawn French needs no introduction, but she's been making people laugh for more than 30 years as a writer, comedian and actor. You will know her work from French and Saunders to The Vicar of Dibley and beyond. She's also written novels and conducted sell-out tours. Her current stage show is wonderfully called Dawn French is a Huge Twat

and a new book on the same theme, The Twat Files, A Life of Mistakes, No Regrets. She began by telling Emma what she loves about the title. The reason why I felt completely entitled to use this word is because it's a word my mum would happily call us. So I know that it's sort of allowable. It's an admonishment, but it's a hug. I was about to say, because for some people, it depends maybe where you live in the country and also, you know, what your association is with it. But what was your, what was the context of your mum calling you this? Well, if you've done something a bit wrong, that is utterly forgivable, you would be called that

word in my household, and you never would take any offence. Yeah. And I can't believe that anybody does take offence. So I'm, you know, I had to own this, you know, listen, I'm 66 now. And when I first suggested that this was the name of my tour and also the name of the book, you know, promoters and marketers saying, oh, no, no, you're already, you're, you know, discounting ticket sales and we won't, the algorithms online and all that. Did you actually have a chat about the algorithmic values? Honestly, it was just ridiculous. And there's a moment when I just go, look, I'm stepping into my 66 year old skin here. I'm going to say I like this word. Anybody who knows me will enjoy this and will enjoy this show, will enjoy this book.

Come on in those who are OK with it. Stay away those who are not. And I find it a friendly, inclusive sort of word. But there are a lot, I mean, you know, without swearing a lot, which I'm not going to do. You know, I'm from the West Country. We swear at each other all the time as a friendship. As a good morning. Yes. But I know, and we've spoken before, but I know part of what you're doing with this is actually talking about things that have gone wrong, things that you then can laugh at.

Yeah. then can laugh at yeah and how important that is especially with women sometimes to be able to own those things that you know everyone has those moments they think back to or even something that just happened five minutes earlier and they're feeling awful about awful now it's okay to feel awful at the time when you make these stupid mistakes when you you commit whatever faux part it is we're all eejits all of us. And in that moment, you can have your embarrassment, you can have your humiliation. My point is that you don't learn from anything unless you wrangle the power of it back to yourself and retell the story. And we all know, don't we, that we love to tell these stories to each other, especially if you're with a trusted friend, you will admit your own shortcomings.

You will admit the stupid thing you did that morning. And it's the most delightful thing to hear. And when somebody is telling you something dreadful they did, they're trusting that you won't judge them. So it's a bit of an unzipping and an exchange. And honestly, when I set out to, well, A, write the tour,

and then B, write the book, because I realised the tour was only a small part of this tsunami of stupidity and idiocy that I've lived through in my life, especially in my work life, actually. I thought, well, I'm doing this for fun. of it's a it's almost like a sort of social right it's it's almost a kind of basic human need to tell to exchange stories of our idiocy so that we can understand each other and better love each other and there aren't um humble brags as well you know those stories which genuinely are a gaffe or genuinely are a moment that you know really made you feel a bit different inside or or whatever because in the world that we live in of presenting our best selves yes and social media and all of this I mean and and obviously the title does that for people I should say you

know some people as you have alluded to will find that word offensive and as you say that won't be for them but what you're trying to do is bring people together underneath this and and I just need to talk to you about you wanting to um to be in a pony club should we talk about this my family is known for making lots of mistakes we get things a little bit wrong you know we come to things late we do it a bit wrong and I love that I love that about us but one of the things we got quite wrong when I was quite young was that um I mean I went to boarding school because my dad was in the RAF so I went to a public school which I never would have gone to in my class I guess but the RAF paid for this so I was at this school with girls who had ponies and the girls who had

the ponies were in part of pony club and these were rules I had never heard of the kind of jodhpurs you wear the kind of tie tie, the special kind of, well, the whole outfit, and especially the pony, which is very expensive, which suits you, which is right for your height, your weight, everything else. This is everything I desired, but didn't know the intricate rules of. So my dad was given, or he was offered a pony in exchange for a debt on a car or something. And my dad thought, oh yeah, Dawn dawn wants a pony i'll take this home and this was a funny old nag of a horse uh that had a an um disease called sweet itch which meant that every march this horse lost her whole mane and tail and just had pussy scabs lovely love this

is not the pony i was imagining but i love this this pony very much. And I took part in Jim Karnas again. And there's a word, you know, you don't know. Such a great word, Jim Karnas. I didn't know it either till I read Equus at university and somebody said what it was. Exactly. But there are, again, these hallowed rules in certain classes. Jennifer knows all about this. Jennifer had perfect, lovely ponies. Jennifer Saunders. classes. Jennifer knows all about this. Jennifer had perfect, lovely ponies. Her mother knew about horses and what to buy her because the right pony for the right kid is rare as hen's teeth.

And I did not have the right pony. But anyway, I took part in a Gymkhana in the Royal Cornwall show. But my dad, along with the pony, came some old tack. So we did have a saddle and we did have a bridle, but the saddle didn't have a girth that goes underneath that attaches. My dad made one out of an old tyre. And as I was taking part in the gym corner, bearing in mind I was in my dad's gardening jacket and in some old trousers and Wellington boots. This is all wrong. The outfit is wrong.

But as I was riding the pony, really galloping, galloping, trying to keep up with the posh girls, the saddle just started to move. It moved because the girth was not correct. And there was this awful moment where I was genuinely riding a pony upside down with the pony's legs bashing into my head. I did eventually dismount in a cumbersome, clumsy way and just left the arena and walked my pony home in shame. But you see, there's a moment that could have stunted me. But now when I think about it, I love that little Dawn trying to ride that pony. I love that little pony. I love that incident. So if you can wrangle the power of the mistake of the

unfortunate moment back to yourself and retell it, there's such a liberation in it and joy and joy. I mean, girth to Jim Carna. There's so many beautiful words associated. Exactly. If we come back to words to that, but what a mental image. I mean, it sounds like a scene from French and Saunders. Yeah, yeah. Well, we did do sketches in French and Saunders yeah yeah well we did do sketches in French and Saunders about ponies because Jennifer and I both had these very opposite experiences so we knew what it was like oh well we'll go with that there's a lot of people getting in touch saying they agree with you about the words as well that you're talking about and

and that's what their mum or their family used to call them. Yeah. And relating to that. You do also in the book talk about the end of French and Saunders. Yeah. A particular sketch that precipitated that. It was a blip. I must point that out. It's not, and it's been made a big thing of. But I suppose why on Woman's Hour I wanted to get to it was it kind of spoke to how you felt about yourself and how you felt about your looks. And whether, you know, I know maybe it wasn't the biggest thing but but it spoke to this bigger thing about how you felt about whether

you were the butt of the joke yes that's exactly it it's who's in charge of the joke is what happens and it was our fault that I wasn't in charge of it at that moment so we're talking about a sketch to do with Anastasia the singer where you were hoping that the idea was that you were hoping that you could perform yeah uh on top of the pot yeah as anastasia silly sketch which jennifer and i had often talked about how you know if you're in your car or if you're in the loo you can sound like this wonderful singer wouldn't it be amazing if the singer came in said you're amazing join me on stage it's like all your fantasies tap on the shoulder absolutely and so we did that and we did i did go on stage with her um and we went on stage and we did I did go on stage with her.

And we went on stage and we performed in front of an actual Top of the Pops audience who were looking at me in such a strange way. And I think the costume designer had decided to go with a particular era of Anastasia's outfits, a cowgirl sort of look, which on me at that time, five stone heavier looked very weird. It was the the wrong choice everything was just a bit wrong that day and I just felt out of control of it and um it was an odd thing because I'd often been I'd often looked ugly in many sketches I love that that isn't the problem at all um you know that that's almost our meat and potatoes I've never been scared of that. I never was worried about what size I was. I would always manage to do whatever joke I wanted to do and be in charge of it.

But on that particular day, and it was the only time it happened in all those years, I just felt humiliated. I think lots of other things were going on at the same time. I think I was tired and I just got in my car on the way home and I thought, ooh, I think that's done. But actually, there is a time when certain things are done. I think Jen and I might have been talking as well about what more sketches can we do?

We don't want to keep repeating ourselves. Let's move on to Pastures New together and separately. So it was the right time. And that friendship as well. I mean, it's a real love. It's a real love lesson to that as well. You know, we fell in love at college and we are friends, very close friends. We've been through everything together, births and deaths and parents and infertility and divorce.

And, you know, we've been there for each other through all of it. So you've got to remember that doing French and Saunders was a bit sort of cherry on the cake. That was a chance for us to show off together and be in the dressing up box. The wonderful Dawn French there. And so many of you got in touch following our interview with Dawn French. Jane emailed in to say, I'm still laughing at the story of ponies and pony club. We had almost exactly the same experience after my husband, a plumber, swapped some radiators for a Shetland pony. Knowing nothing of the rules, I entered my six-year-old daughter into a class. The pony had a blue plastic bridle and old felt saddle pad. She proudly wore the jacket I had so lovingly made for her and a pair of lace-up shoes. Only her hat was new and correct. And someone else

texted in to say, just hearing the title of Dawn French's book has made me laugh out loud. Absolutely brilliant. On Tuesday night in Oxford, there was an event called Unwanted Pain and Wanted Pleasure. And it was a discussion in public all about pain and discomfort when it comes to consensual sex, periods and women's pelvic health. The event was held as part of the Oxford If Festival, which is all about starting conversations, airing new ideas and asking, what if? Emma was joined by Sophie Law, presenter for BBC Radio Oxford, who was the host of the panel, Professor Katie Vincent, academic gynaecologist who holds clinics for women experiencing pelvic pain,

and Dr Lydia Coxon, a researcher in pain in women who puts on these types of events. Sophie began by explaining why she wanted to host this panel. One of my friends works with Oxford EndoCare, which is the group putting on this event, who do loads of incredible work around endometriosis and research and women's pain in Oxfordshire. And also, I'm fairly difficult to embarrass. And so when she was looking for someone to corral this, I mean, some of the questions, Emma, were a bit fruity last night. So she wanted someone to just kind of read it all out and not be embarrassed. And I was like, go on then.

There's nothing fruity on women's hour. We've had it all. You know, I was talking about constipation with Chimamanda Nates the adichie only a few weeks ago we can we can do it what do you need what was on the table well all sorts i mean that was what really interested me is that it was the different variations so from like pain all the time that people are having to what happens if i have sex and then it hurts afterwards to emotional pain. Someone was asking last night, I have a really good time and then I burst into tears. Is there something wrong with me? And then of course, people who maybe like a bit of pain in the bedroom. So there was the whole plethora of different topics and we got through a lot in an hour and a half. It was fascinating.

I wish I could have come to that. But we'll try and get some of it here if we can. Katie, pelvic pain, the reality of it, how do you define it? So chronic pelvic pain, we would define as pain in the pelvic region or that you perceive as being in the pelvic region for three months or longer. But that doesn't have to be every day for three months. That could just be with your periods every month for three months or with sex every time for three months, for example. And about one in five women will experience some form of chronic pelvic pain in their life. Right. And that's quite a high number if you think about it. But although some people don't even know that they're having it, you know, that's a kind of also quite a complicated part of it. Pain with sex, though, that was one of the specifics here. What can you say about that for anyone who's listening, you know, and they wouldn't even think to go to an event like this or maybe they've got questions and perhaps they're too embarrassed?

We don't have as much data about pain with sex as we do about pain with periods, for example, or pain with opening your bowels, things that are still embarrassing, but not quite so intimate. But the more we ask these questions, the more we hear them. And the surveys that do go out again, suggest that it's about as common as any of the other types of pelvic pain. Dr. Lydia Cox, listening to this, what did you learn last night? There's lots of great takeaways. I think one of the key things was by lube and lube is wonderful lube helps everything um but I think that Katie was saying it's having those conversations and it was really highlighting so we had GPs we had gynecologists we had a real mix on the panel and they all said we talk about this all the time and for you it's really it can be really

embarrassing and it can be really difficult to have those conversations but for the doctors they're used to it there's probably not the first time today they've had those conversations. So try and go there and have these conversations. And if you have to have them bit by bit, that's fine too. Talking specifically about women, pain and sex, what do you know from your research? Well, I think, as Katie said, we don't know lots. So it's definitely an area where we need more data because socially we don't talk about it so there's not there's limited funds for it there's limited access to data but we know that it's really common we know that it's really going to impact people's lives and there's certain areas

we really don't know much about so adolescents for example younger women we don't know much about what it's like for them having pain with sex and we really need to sort of drive that forward and it all comes from I think these sort of conversations so normalizing talking about sex and talk about pain with sex and although I love the fact that I'm a real solutions person if possible I love the fact you started with saying by lube because that could really help some people if they genuinely either didn't know that or haven't heard anybody say that to them because you know advice is offered in so many walks of life. But because of the difficulties around these sorts of conversations, Lydia, that, you know, you might not actually hear somebody say that. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's also the sort of stigma around these sort of things like, oh, do I need it?

Do other people need it? Is it normal to have lube? Yes, it is, was the general message from all over the panel yes use lube why why not lose use it there are also myths aren't there professor casey vincent around you know this this area and and when maybe you might have problems in your life as a woman with sex and when you might not i mean what do you want to say around that and busting some of those myths i mean i think the key myths that we wanted to be sure we got across were that pain is not normal. So we know that people think it's normal. It's something they have to put up with as part of being a woman. And also that doctors are interested in your pain. So please come and talk to us.

Lots of people express concerns that they might have their experiences dismissed or that they might be minimised in some way. But actually, we are interested and we would like to hear from you. I think it's also really important to understand that there are lots of different factors that can combine together to cause pain. And we might not always find something on a scan, for example, but just because we don't identify something doesn't mean that we don't then think it's in your head. There are lots of other reasons physically why you might experience pain, even if all your ultrasound scans are normal, for example. But the language of pain is also quite difficult, isn't it, Lydia?

Like how you actually describe what it is, because it's quite unusual, you know, finding words that sound like they go with the pain. Everyone needs to experience pain of some kind, right? And sometimes it's achy, sometimes it's stabbing, sometimes it's shooting. And there's all these words about how it feels. Then there's all the words about how intense it is. Is it really severe? Is it quite mild? And then there's all the words about how you feel about it. And it's so, so complicated because there's so many brain regions involved in us feeling pain. But one of the things we do know is that sometimes the way you describe your pain

does match to the underlying things that are causing it. So, for example, stabbing pain might be related to pain that's due to nerve damage. If we can describe pain in a way that makes sense and fits with how it feels for you, it can help give an idea of what could be the underlying mechanisms and then what would help to treat it. Sophie, did you have, as the host of this event last night, did you have a favourite question or a favourite sort of point that you marshalled? I mean, one of the points was don't buy pumpkin spice lube this autumn because it should be

plain as possible because novelty stuff is not good for those areas, Emma. But the other thing that really struck with me, I know I never thought I'd hear those words or in fact say them on Women's Hour. You've said them. This is the place to say them. The thing that really struck me was keeping a diary because a couple of times we were talking about different stuff

and when does it happen at the beginning, at the end, or does it happen with one partner but not another one? And I oh are you talking about sort of keeping a pain diary and they were like yes because when you finally get into the GP and then they ask you these specific questions on something that might have happened three months ago if you've got a little diary where it's all written down you can go through it and I thought what what a great tip. BBC Radio Oxford presenter Sophie Law ending that interview there. We also heard from Dr Lydia Coxon and Professor Katie Vincent. Next, we spotted an intriguing headline in the papers recently. My boyfriend lives with my

husband. And while it turns out to be accurate, this isn't the whole story. Caroline and the children live in Cheltenham, whilst Neil, her ex and the father of her children, and Ian, her new boyfriend, currently live together in Scotland. Caroline and Neil joined Emma to explain the reasons behind their unconventional setup. Caroline started by explaining why she originally set out to pick someone who was going to be a good ex. My parents made a complete dog's breakfast out of their divorce. I remember thinking, God, this is awful. And up until I met Neil, I didn't have a great experience with romantic partners. And I just couldn't envisage having any of them in my life beyond the sort of immediate

future. So when it got to the stage where I was thinking about the fact that I wanted to have children, I was in my sort of late 20s. And I thought, I've got to get a handle on this. And at that point, I was a pretty established estate agent. And I'd seen, you know, people that had bought houses a couple of years ago were then selling their houses, having split up, and it just seemed to be rife.

So I thought, I'm going to take charge of this and I'm going to pick somebody that's going to be a good ex because the odds are he's going to become an ex. Neil, are you overawed by the romance of this genesis of thought? It is touching, yes. I mean, it's moving me to unknown planes of romanticism. Were you thinking Caroline would be a decent ex as well when you started that?

Yeah, no choice. No, I mean, being a man and being me, I wasn't thinking at the time that far ahead. I was just thinking about where we were going to go on the Friday night and what pizza we were going to order, the typical sort of man stuff of the 90s. There was a tricky start at the beginning, is that right, Neil? We'd been forced apart.

Yeah, we got good at being apart. Yeah, my work had forced me to come back to London, so I had no choice, so we did that. And we got into a rhythm, didn't we? And when we had our first son, it was fine. And the problems really came from when he came home. And I remember being on maternity leave with our second son, and I was like, God, he's everywhere.

Why is he here? And I was used to my own space at that point. We were definitely on two different paths. We were going to the same place but for a different route. And it was killing us pretending that we were happy. I always say to people, we were never happier than when we admitted we weren't happy. So this is what we're getting to.

What did you come up with that was your workable solution? Well, in practical terms, what we did was we did what we assumed we were supposed to do, which is physically supposed to separate. The idea was to ship ourselves off on alternate week basis so we wouldn't have to uproot the children. So we tried that for a bit. And it was like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to be in a house without my children. But we thought we still need privacy. So let's think of our other options. So then we'd be like, right, let's each of us take turns. We live in the Cotswolds, so there's loads of nice hotels around.

For what it cost us to rent a flat, we had, it would spend less than that, like less than half of that. And each of us could take turns spending the night in a hotel on a weekend just to get a bit of space and a bit of respite. Only that got old really fast. So then it was coming together in the kitchen one day and it was just like, this is ridiculous. Like all of this essentially for the privilege of being able to date without an audience.

That's what it came down to. Did you have a conversation where you said, let's move back in together and we can be with other people? No, we operated, I remember having this conversation on a don't ask don't talk about it basis because it was still too weird to talk about either of us dating the people you were dating did they know you lived with your ex yeah oh they did not like it people don't like it i think both of us i think we both independently adopted the same approach which is you need to know this before we go to date two. You need to know this and this isn't going to change. If you're not okay with this, that's fine.

But it was brilliant for weeding out the weirdos that would never have got on board with our vibe anyway. So let's talk about Ian. Karen, you met someone, Ian. I did. And you drove Neil to a pub to meet him. Is that right? Was that a fun night?

It started off awkward. Yeah. And then we ended up just laughing. Well, I remember when I first told Neil about this and I sort of sat him down and said, look, I've got some news. And I said, I think I've met someone that might be special. I think this one might stick. I've explained our situation.

And he has kids as well. He has kids as well. So I said, but, you know, this is early enough for me to give you the reins on this one because you're my best friend I know that you want what's best for me and I know that you want what's best for the boys and this guy's going to be spending time with our boys so you've got to clear him you know I'm sending you in go and check him out and see if he's somebody that I can trust and if you say that this is a non-starter, he's gone.

But if you like him... That's a lot of power. That's a lot of power. But he was a pincer movement. He was never going to put his own happiness above mine. I knew he was... But you also, at this point, have to be okay with your boys being around somebody, don't you? And that's what I think some men may struggle with. To be fair, I do joke

still sometimes about being replaced but I don't genuinely feel it. I like to wind people up by taking the mickey sometimes. But when I met him and I thought, OK, he's different. I don't get half of what he's talking about. You know, he seems unusual. But I got a vibe straight away that he was a decent guy. Yeah, I mean, people listening to this

who have been forced to be in the situation that you're in because they can't afford to do anything else. They also don't have a house where perhaps there's another bedroom you know just aware of all of that if i can fast forward to where we seem to have got to now whereas who's living where i've got a bit confused so caroline still lives in cheltenham with our children um i relocated up to scotland to train as a teacher um and i'm renting a room in ian's brother's house and ian lives there with his his youngest son right so that sounds a lot weirder than it is. But it's factually accurate.

I love a fact. I'm a woman who loves a fact. So Ian moved, took his kids, went to go and live with his brother who needed some daily help. And all of his family up there anyway. So the plan was we were all going to go. But our eldest was in the middle of his GCSEs at that stage Neil had just finished his degree and he was like right what am I going to do with it so you're going to train as a teacher so the plan was we're all going to move to Scotland when our eldest had done his GCSEs and everyone was on board with that Ian was already

up there Neil was like well I'll go up there and train because I can teach down here with the Scottish version but I can't teach up there with an English one. And if we're going to end up there anyway, then we may as well do it now. So it was a good plan. It was a great plan. And then, of course, our eldest did his GCSEs and immediately went, I don't want to go. I want to do my A-levels here.

So it did rather mean that Neil is up there living with Ian and I'm down here with my boys. And it's all gone a bit wrong, but that's still the plan. So everyone is kind of muddling through. It might not work for everybody, Ian and I'm down here with my boys and it's all gone a bit wrong but that's still the plan so everyone is kind of muddling through it might not work for everybody but it's something we have been working at for over a decade now this cooperation and it works for us and do you have a partner yes I do and where are they she's in Cheltenham on it goes Caroline and Neil sharing their story there. And if you have separated,

have you tried a conscious uncoupling novel set up like this one? How did you go about it and how did it go? Or is it going? Always keen to get your experiences. Jimmy Savile was one of the UK's most influential celebrities who raised millions for charity. But after his death in 2011, it transpired he had, over decades,

sexually abused hundreds of people. The BBC's new drama series, The Reckoning, stars Steve Coogan as Jimmy Savile and explores how he was able to hide in plain sight using his celebrity status, powerful connections and fundraising activity to gain uncontrolled access to vulnerable young people and children. When the drama was announced, there was a backlash. Some questioned why it needed to be made at all. And some survivor

organisations accused the BBC of making entertainment out of his crimes. It's a very harrowing watch. Emma Barnett was joined in the studio by survivor Sam Brown. Her story features in episode three. Sam and three other survivors, Darian, Susan and Kevin, also speak directly to the camera at the start and end of each episode. Sam began by explaining what made her want to take part. I've done a few documentaries because I want to take part? I've done a few documentaries because I want to be able to talk as much as I can about what it is like to live well with your whole universe actually being rewired from a child on through to adulthood I want I want everybody that has not experienced that to try and understand that. So this for me was very different.

And I had to think about this quite a lot because obviously there was going to be a person cast as me as a child. And with my adult head on and my separation that I managed to do with myself when I'm doing all of this, I knew this was going to be a real challenge because the reality of seeing me as a child, as a grown-up, I thought would be really difficult. And it was really difficult.

But I like that you'll see me as an adult. And I look OK. You know, I look as if I've done all right in life and I and I you know but I was that child and to get to being this person has been a really long trip so I did know it was going to be difficult and it was a difficult watch um and I felt really sorry for that little girl like really sorry and my husband said you you know, hang on, that's you. You know, that's you as a little girl. And I understand that this is a topic that is really difficult.

I understand that. But that was really difficult for us. What age were you when you were first abused by Jimmy Southwark? I think it started really about 11, about 11 and a half. And went on until I was about 14. And how did you come across him or how did he come across you? Well, we used to go to church chapel at Stoke Mandeville on a Saturday night rather than Sundays. My dad played, we had football teams. So Sunday was a mad busy day.

And so we used to go on the Saturday nights. So that's the church in the hospital? Yeah. Which actually Stoke Vandervoort didn't idea they ever had, which was kind of funny when we were doing all this kind of stuff. They pretended they didn't have a chapel. So we used to go there on Saturday night. And because my mum did the cleaning, she was quite close with the priest. So it was my job to go into like a little tiny presbytery,

get the collection tray, wait for the time to go out and then like a little tiny presbytery get the collection tray wait for the time to go out and then pass that round in the benches and that's where I met him in there in that room and it wasn't once that something happened to you no it was continuously he used to come to church you know I guess about once every three weeks sometimes you know sometimes he'd be there every other week and it was always my job so I knew already when I walked into the room I already knew I sensed the power and um I understood really straight away that he was going to you know touch me in ways that I didn't like to be touched. I knew that already.

He was very good at, you know, doing little taster sessions to see who he could do what to, you know. So obviously I'd had abuse anyway, so I kind of got it. So he was in front, stood in front with another man, and I don't know what that other man, I don't know who that was. I never really was brave enough to look up, you know, like I used to look at the floor an awful lot. And I had to stretch past him to get a collection plate.

And the first time I did that, I turned round because the door was open. So I could see the priest and I could see everyone's heads, you know, in the congregation. I could see my mum's, I could see my brother's, I could see everyone's. And I can remember the first time where I turned round and it started touching my shoulders and touching my back, and, you know, and I would freeze and wait for that. And obviously the more I went in, the more confident he got

to a point where, you know, he would have his whole... I do say this to a lot of people because I think, really, that when he used to put his whole fingers and his whole hand into my mouth, there was nothing plainer for him to tell me I had no voice, I had no power, you know, he was in control. I kind of felt that was his enjoyment, was to feel that power over me. I tried really hard before we went to church to try and protect myself, put lots of knickers on,

use a lot of other things, and this is going to sound awful and I'm really sorry, but to fill up any holes that I had so that fingers couldn't go in there. I tried my hardest and I used to cry and used to be painful and but he still did what he wanted to do and actually when I think about it probably the more I tried to protect myself the bigger buzz became you know for him so that that did go on for years looking at everyone's heads and waiting and wishing that someone would see me

I kind of felt really invisible and I felt like that from little really growing up I was an invisible unimportant, I wasn't really a person I didn't feel like I existed in the world I just took breaths you know

I worked through the motions of being alive but didn't live Thank you for sharing that Sam That's ok Don't be sad, I don't want you to be sad I just say it because it will be hard for people to hear It is hard And it's hard for you to say

but it's important for you to say which is why you wanted to take part in this and different people will have different views on that And I listen, I'm really sad. Everyone at home, I know this can break your heart. I know this because nobody wants to hear that. But I am saying this not to hurt you, but to help you. Because you obviously want this to change.

Yeah. We can't have, how many young people do we want to feel like that? You talked about you were abused before, and that speaks to being vulnerable, perhaps, to him. Yeah. How did you find your voice? How did you talk out about this? How did you let anybody know at any point, and when was that?

About 21, there was a reaction to something that happened, and I heard somebody scream and that was game over for me for a year. I had two children by then and my husband had to take a year off work. I could not function. I was so scared. I reverted into the child that used to hide underneath the cupboard in school. I had a fear of everything to a massive degree of and I couldn't walk. I stopped walking. To go into a room by myself I couldn't do so I was really lucky to have a woman to come to the home every day and that's how because I knew I couldn't be put to hospital because I would just die. You know I can't leave my kids because they're the reason I was alive. And every day she spent with me and that took a year.

I think I had massive PTSD and that just took a big bang. And that was part of this coming out of you? Yeah, it was flooded, flooded, flooded. The sound in that scream was the sound my inside self felt. And you're living in a world, of course, where it takes then a long time. You know, let's talk about this 2015 and inquiry reveals that in 1968 to 92, Jimmy Savile abused at least 60 people connected to the hospital, aged 8 to 40, 90% female. A formal complaint from an 11 year old was ignored. It found his reputation as a sex pest was an 11 year old was ignored it found his reputation was as a sex

person was an open secret among some staff and then if you look at the bbc as well um what was known or what wasn't known a lot of discussion around that in fact that's why a lot of people don't want this drama perhaps on the bbc it's made by itv studios but small detail it's a bbc drama how how has that left you feeling about institutions as you've continued to move through your life, whether that's church, NHS, BBC? School, anywhere, or everyone? Well, not confident, clearly. I mean, I think that the entitled behaviour that is allowed with somebody, you know, anybody important in organisations, you know, work, whatever, whatever it is,

it's sickening because everyone knew this. My life, I might have been a completely different person. I don't know. I tried to kill myself so much, you know, from like 11 till 15. I was always trying to kill myself. Somebody could have stopped that for me. Somebody could have stopped that for me. Somebody could have helped me. So I feel that the people that knew and didn't talk or didn't talk loud enough are also responsible.

Sam Brown speaking there. And all episodes of The Reckoning are on BBC iPlayer now and there are links on the website if you've been affected by what you've heard. Still to come on the website if you've been affected by what you've heard. Still to come on the programme, head judge of Strictly Come Dancing, Shirley Ballas, will be bringing some sparkle to your weekend. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the daily podcast for free by going to BBC Sounds and search for Woman's Hour. Now for some music. The violinist Esther Abrami moved to

England from France at the age of 14 to study music and was picked by Julian Lloyd Webber as one of the 30 under 30 to watch. She is the first classical musician to win the social media superstar category at the Global Awards and with more than 400,000 followers on TikTok, you may already be following her. She now has a new album out, Cinema, and joined Emma Barnett in the studio. Esther began by sharing the meaning behind the title. I've always been quite keen about making classical music as accessible and as kind of open to every generation. And I felt like with the cinema album, my goal was to bring kind of everyone in.

So to break down any barriers that might be, because when you go to the cinema and you go watch a movie, you're not sat there thinking, oh, I'm not going to like this song because it might be classical or it might be jazz or it might be rock. You're kind of completely free of any preconception or judgment. So you go in there and you could fall in love with any soundtrack,

let it be a violin solo, a flute solo, or I don't know, a group of trumpets, literally anything. And that's why I wanted to bring the cinema album to show that really you can, yeah, you can really like anything. And in this album, I'm bringing solo violin and a full orchestra with soundtracks from some of my favourite movies. There's like a real big range. But it's interesting. I'm a bit like a magpie.

I collect pieces of music wherever I am. And I have that app on my phone which tells me what something's playing. So I can put it in and then I save it on a bit of a playlist and then I refine that later. And it's funny we used to say that about films because after the film I look up the the soundtrack and I pick the things I like and that means why in the middle of I don't know playing some music at home where I could have some rap or some hip-hop there'll suddenly be a classical piece because I will have loved it and as you say it doesn't have to be on a classical playlist. Yeah exactly it can be amongst everything else and that's kind of where I want classical music to be. Like I'd like people to be able to listen

as much to this genre as they are listening to any other genres. And I think for that, there's a little bit of work to be done in terms of maybe the image that some people might have about around classical music. And why the violin for you? What made you come to the violin?

Because there's quite a personal connection as well, isn't there? Yeah, it's from my grandmother. She was a violinist herself and she quit when she got married. But she always kept her violin with her. And when I was three years old, she showed me what a violin was. It was my very first introduction to music and to the instrument. I remember that moment quite well. And then actually, it's not until I was 10 years old that I then really started violin lessons because my parents, not being musicians, really wanted for the interest to come from me.

So I think it was the first introduction at three years old. And then when I was old enough to really know what I wanted, I expressed interest in violin lessons and I fell in love with the instrument. And you came here at quite a young age. That must have been quite a journey. It was. I didn't speak a single word of English when I came. Right. Just violin. Exactly. And I came from the south of France to Manchester. So it was kind of, yeah, a journey in every sense of the term. Yeah. But I loved it. I really, really did. And I fell in love with England and I kind of stayed there, you know, for the last 10 years. And for you, though, now, you know, doing this, you also are very passionate about talking to women in particular on social media. Yes, through my studies.

And I studied music for now 15 years. I've kind of got recently out of university. And when I was out of university, that's the moment I realised in 15 years, I'd never studied a single piece written by a woman. And it was like a very shocking realisation and something that didn't even cross my mind until then. Like I never played in an orchestra conducted by a woman, for example. And I really, really want things to be different for the younger generation. So I'm really passionate about making things change. Violinist Esther Abrami.

Finally, we've got a real bit of glam to end the programme. She started dancing at the age of seven, and by the time she retired from competitions in 1996, she had earned herself the title the Queen of Latin. You know her now as the head judge on Strictly Come Dancing, but Shirley Ballas is also an author. Her autobiography, Behind the Sequins, came out three years ago and she's just published her debut fiction novel, Murder on the Dance Floor. She's also spoken openly about her struggles with menopause

and how she wishes that she'd been taught more about it. Shirley spoke to me away from her busy Strictly schedule and told me what it's like to be part of the show. Well, Strictly Come Dancing is a phenomenon, isn't it? I mean, it's for all the family. I get little tweets and videos every week of the two-year-olds and the little ones and grandpa. Everybody gives their opinion and I just love it. So it's just that lovely looking forward to Saturday evening

with all the family because it is for everybody at the end of the day. It is. And everyone likes to have their say and get involved, don't they? Let's talk about the it's never too early for a 10 from Shirley moment last week where you awarded your first 10 to radio presenter Eddie Caddy. And we're only into week three here. Some fans disagreed with that. What is happening here? Is it just that the standards are getting better and better? Well, I thought Eddie didn't have such

a great week the week before with his chomp, chomp, chomp. And he came out this week and he really was quite spectacular. And it was everything his body ever wanted to do was those bopping kind of moves. It was synchronized together. You know, Karen is the expert when it comes to that form of dancing. And I just thought he was outstanding. So I thought, you know, normally I would wait so much later in the season, but I don't know whether he's going to turn that kind of performance in again. So I thought it warranted a 10. I gave a 10. I think people were more shocked it came in week three than they were about whether I gave a 10 for the dancing. So yeah, he fully deserved it, in my opinion. And let's hope he can keep it up.

You know, as he goes into ballroom and Latin, it's a lot more difficult. And staying with this series and everyone having an opinion, let's talk about outfits. The yellow dress with feathers that you wore, which viewers said made you look a bit like Big Bird from the Muppets. You even did a TikTok video making fun of that. How do the outfits work? Do you even get a say in what you get to wear on Strictly? Well, first of all, it was a different kind of dress for me. And Alexandria, my dresser, who I've had for seven years, we thought it would be fun to go with something just more bright, you know, to open up the show. Didn't think for a minute people were going to compare me to Big

Bird, but that was okay. I've got a great a great I don't really mind what people call me or say about me I've had a lot worse in my industry so yeah I rather like the dress but it was fun making the TikTok for sure yeah yeah yeah let's talk about um the menopause something you have spoken openly about um you've been doing strictly since 2017 and during part of that, you're going through the menopause. And it's something that we know impacts women in different ways. First of all, what kind of symptoms did you get? Well, first of all, it impacted my daily life. And you know how busy I am, and my relationships and my social life in every form that you could possibly imagine. And symptoms started well before my periods actually stopped. I was having mood swings. I was feeling very, very low with anxiety and very, very low self-esteem,

if you can believe that. Problems with concentration a little bit and fog, which I still have a little bit to this day. I mean, my mother went through the menopause and didn't have a symptom. My mother is very much get on with it. She didn't have a symptom. But I had this just awful time. I didn't have anybody to talk to. And I was embarrassed to go. So it kind of started around 48, I would say, and was completed probably 58, somewhere around

there. And it was my son that I actually talked to. He could see I was in a terrible, terrible place. And then we sat down together and we chatted and I told him all the feelings, which he knew was not me. And then we went to see the doctor eventually. And then I started on bioidentical hormones. But the thing with hormones is if you don't get the right balance, because I got the right balance at first and I felt like a new woman. Hello. When I came back to London, I didn't quite get the right balance. I had too much testosterone.

So I had hairy legs, hairy armpits, hairy bits here, there and everywhere, growing out the nose, all sorts of things. But now my doctor has found the right balance and I'm feeling much, much better. But it leaves you with joint pain. I still have that to this day. My period stopped immediately. I didn't have any of that ongoing. They just stopped when I was 50. Just that was it. There was nothing else. And of course, it can go into your personal relationships with, you know, your boyfriends or whatever else.

You know, you're dry and the skin dries. The hair starts to go thinner. I noticed that it was falling out. But the hot flushes, I'd be suddenly teaching in the studio. And from the neck up, I could feel this burning sensation. And I found it very embarrassing. Was there a space where you could talk about this? I know that you said that you turned to your son or rather he approached you saying, mum, you're not who you usually are. But we often talk about employers needing to do more in the workplace to recognise what women are going through.

Do you feel that within Strictly you had some kind of safety net where you could express what you were going through? Mine started around 48 and finished just around about the time I was going on Strictly, so I was over the worst of it. But the BBC, they give you help in any areas that you need. I've never worked for a company that's just so fantastic as they are. But headaches, migraines, muscle pains, changes in your skin, you know, discomfort itching, I would say to anybody who's out there, try to seek the help. I got my help a little bit late. Like I said, I was embarrassed to talk about it. And I think in the workplace today, everybody needs to be educated on it for me because you know everybody talks about when we're going into puberty and this and that and everyone's

excited and then when we go on the other end like we're falling off a cliff no one seems to want to listen. And that's men as well isn't it because in your case you opened up to your son and there's always that debate about men needing to know more. Well, again, you know, my son noticed a huge change in me. I'm a bubbly, upbeat person. I have a big red button on my shoulder. I just press light, camera, action, we're off. And he was the one who came in and sat down and I was so embarrassed. I was crying and upset. He said, don't be embarrassed. Let's try to understand this together.

If more men were like that, more caring, more understanding, like if you see somebody struggling in the workplace that's having a hot flush at least let them go out get a drink of water you know don't be sort of like giving you marching orders and everything but i still don't think it's really talked about i think people get embarrassed so i i urge people now we're in a different world altogether and talk to a friend. Talk, yeah. And let's get more education from young adults, I suppose. Let's get education as to where the body is going. It doesn't mean we're dying because we've gone through the menopause.

Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So something else I want to talk to you about. We heard earlier this week, Shelley, that Holly Willoughby, the host of ITV's This Morning, is leaving the show after a plot to kidnap her was revealed. You're also a woman on national TV. And I know you've spoken publicly before about receiving death threats last year. What was your reaction to Holly's decision?

And more widely, how safe do you feel? Well, I know Holly is a wonderful, sensitive young lady. And I think all women in today's society should become more vigilant. I'm just about to enroll in some self-defense classes. I think it's important. It was unfortunate for Holly. Her situation was really quite dire. But my message goes out to all women, not just women in profile. It's taking care of yourself. It's educating yourself. What can you do if you were in a situation that happened to take hold of you that you have no idea of what to do so I shall be getting myself a lot more educated on that for

sure well good luck with those self-defense classes I think it's a wonderful thing that you're doing something else you're doing writing lots more of it your debut novel was published yesterday murder on the dance floor it's been described as sex lies and ballroom dancing. Tell us more, please. Well, everybody looks at the in my industry and strictly, you know, glitz, glamour, it's all beautiful baubles, bangles and beads. But when I wrote my autobiography, I couldn't fit many of the stories in or they weren't appropriate in the book. So Muntz said, you know, wouldn't it be lovely if you could write a fiction novel? You love writing. So I thought it would be great to do a crime novel. And behind the scenes of Blackpool Tower, which is where I first started to dance. And this whole event turns very deadly when Oksana

Bondarenko heads up to the dance floor in a passionate opening of the tango with Jack, and she suddenly dies. So then Lily, I will tell you, is me, teams up with Susie Cooper, who is a detective, used to be a dancer, and we get together, we try to solve these murders. But it is, and I want people to think when they read it, did Shirley take part in that? Did she witness it? Or is that part fiction? Will they ever know? Well, you see, sex, lies, intrigue, backstabbing, bed hopping, manipulation, bullying, and ballroom dancing.

What more? And that's just my first book in my sequins. Well, my second book in my sequins, Mystery. What I love about what you just shared there is your mom told you to write this novel. Well, also, she was in her room and she was reading the novel, which she read overnight. She's an avid reader. And I could hear all these noises coming from her room. Oh, you can't say that. Oh, Shirley, get a grip break i don't know whether she was having an orgasm or reading the book anyway she came out she said that was an amazing book but your ending is poop you're gonna we're gonna have to start again with your ending so we wrote the ending together and it was very exciting she's also got a very vivid imagination my mom i think she would have

made a great writer but I've got so many stories to share and tell. And like I say, this imagination that just doesn't quit. Head judge on Strictly Come Dancing, Shirley Ballas. I can't wait to watch the show tonight. Do join Emma on Monday. He will be speaking to Diana Parks to get her reaction to the news that the government has blocked the automatic release from prison of the man who killed her daughter in 2010. But for now, that is it from myself and the Weekend Woman's Hour team. Do enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories Music, radio, podcasts. dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.