Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Daytimers - South Asian ravers of the 80s, Julia Bradbury and Gaming & Sexism

Episode Date: September 25, 2021

Daytimers UK is a new music collective made up of British South Asian DJs. Taking inspiration from the daytime raves of the 80s and 90s, they're reviving the way South Asian heritage and culture are displayed in public life. We hear from DJ Ritu, one of the pioneers of the Asian Underground music scene. And DJ Priya and Gracie T are from the new Daytimers UK Collective. The presenter Julia Bradbury tells us about her recent breast cancer diagnosis. With breast cancer affecting 1 in 8 women, we hear from breast surgeon Liz O'Riordan on what to do if you find a lump. The Canadian-American performer and songwriter Martha Wainwright performs Love Will Be Reborn and tells us about finding love after a painful divorce. The campaigner Grace Tame has been honoured with Australian of the Year 2021. She started the ‘Let Her Speak' campaign, taking a legal case to be able to publicly speak in her own name about the sexual abuse she suffered as a child and teenager. We hear about sexism in the gaming world and in particular on a platform called Twitch. Shay Thompson is a Gaming presenter and journalist and Cassie Hughes is the co-founder of Black Twitch UK. They discuss ‘Hate raids”- a way of abusing marginalised members. Photo credit: Sunny S (@sunnyformats)Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Lucinda Montifiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, a selection of highlights from the week just gone in case you missed anything. Remember, you can always catch up with our completely free of charge podcast on BBC Sounds. Highly recommended. In a moment, we'll hear from the presenter, Julia Bradbury, on her recent breast cancer diagnosis. We'll discuss the revival of the South Asian daytime rave. And keeping on the music theme, Martha Wainwright tells us about finding new love following the breakup of her marriage.

It was just more based on lovingness and trust and kindness. It was just really unexpected. And in fact, you know, I sort of had these feelings of anger and there was hatred towards my ex. But instead, something good happens. You go, well, I guess that's better. And we're treated to a special performance from Martha too, so do stay with us.

And sexism in the gaming industry. We hear about hate raids on a platform called Twitch. It can be sharing personal information, it can be threats. They target people that are vulnerable on the platform. I would say it's for women, it's for black creators, it's for members of the LGBTQIA, pretty much anyone that's not white male. But first, after three separate assessments, the TV presenter Julia Bradbury has been told she's got breast cancer and is having emergency surgery next month to have her left breast removed.

She's only just told her family and friends, and Julia spoke to Emma in her first broadcast interview. Emma was also joined by breast surgeon Liz O'Riordan. First, Julia started by explaining how her diagnosis came about. About a year ago, I noticed a lump in my breast and we then, I was away on a work trip. I came back and then we all went into lockdown. And I admit that I was a little bit sloppy and it took me probably another month before I spoke to my GP, who's known me since I was 18. And we have a very good relationship. And we did our first Zoom sort of diagnosis.

And I told him about the lump and he managed to get me in to see somebody during lockdown because the NHS workers and the private sector were cooperating together. So it was possible to see people in emergency situations. And I think that's an important thing to get out there. Fast forward a year, I still had the lump and I had been told after that first mammogram that I had something called microcysts and they probably wouldn't develop into much or into anything and not to worry, but to keep an eye on them and to have another mammogram

and another test a year later, a physical examination, which I did. I had it on a to-do list and it got to the bottom of that to-do list. And I went for my follow-up mammogram, which I insisted on having. It was busy. We'd just come out of lockdown. There weren't many slots available. So I really pushed. And I said that I had some pain now that I'd developed in my lump. And when I pressed the lump, I could feel this pain. And that was the change. The lump itself hadn't changed. I'd been physically examining myself throughout the year. I couldn't notice any other physical change apart from that pain. And when I mentioned the pain, I was then

advanced and I managed to get that mammogram, that second mammogram, and that imaging test straight away. And I saw the same person, which is, I think, when you see the same person in medical care, that's always reassuring. And I had a second mammogram and another physical examination and an ultrasound. And my medical professional said he thought everything looked clear. There didn't appear to be any changes. He didn't pick anything up in the physical examination or in the ultrasound. So I walked away from that second mammogram and that second sort of examination feeling fairly confident that we were keeping an eye on this, but everything was okay. And as a secondary part of that meeting, I had a second consultation with my actual consult that was four or five weeks after that second mammogram because he was too busy and couldn't see me

immediately after that mammogram. And that was after I came back from a family holiday. And I almost cancelled that because I'd had this sort of all clear, if you like, or it looks OK. And my sister was with me that day and insisted that we go. And she waited for me outside. And I just popped upstairs to see my consultant. We had a chat about the summer. We talked about COVID. And then he said, look, let me just give you another physical examination while you're here.

And I popped up onto his table. And immediately, he noticed something that he didn't like. And he pointed to a tiny, tiny little pinprick of a shadow on the imaging screen. And he said, I don't like the look of that. Can we get you back down to radiology? Can you come today or tomorrow? Can we go and work out what that is? And I said, yes, of course.

My sister was downstairs. She was waiting for me. There was no rush. And I walked straight away. Again, a slot became free. I was lucky. He called straight away. Again, a slot became free. I was lucky. He called straight through. And there was a slot free if I went straight away, which of course I did. And I

walked there. And I walked up the eight steps. And I got to this same imaging department. And they discovered this tiny, tiny lump now that had obviously been there several weeks before but it had been missed somehow and it was only this second examination and a new pair of eyes and hands on me that picked up something very very small and within minutes I was lying on my side and I was having a biopsy and people who have had biopsies will know that they're not particularly pleasant they're not pleasant affairs they sort of hack into you. They cut bits of tissue out of you. And that's when I knew that I was probably on a different path. Were you actually told there and then? Yes, because my consult had said,

if you agree with what I think I have seen, will you go ahead with a biopsy, please, and let us get it off to the lab as soon as possible to confirm what I think is the case. So yes, once that next stage of the process happened, obviously now something had been discovered that my consult, he was unhappy with. I know this must have been a blur in some ways and it was happening from a different place that you thought you were going into and then something else completely happened. But how did that make you feel? Or when did you take in the news that you had breast cancer? Well, it wasn't confirmed at that stage, obviously,

and it was still everything, the tissue was going off to the labs for the biopsy results to come back. But that was the first moment I felt sadness and fear because everything just changed so quickly. And, of course, that's what happens with cancer. Suddenly, your life changes and there is this glimmer of something that the first thing you think about is death and the worst possible scenario because that's what you think about. I can already hear how emotional that is making you think about

that moment and that beginning. Yeah, it's anybody who has been through, and there are millions of women out there who are going through this right now and who have been through this, will know that you can't help but feel fear. That's the first thing that you feel. And I'm somebody who, I'm very pragmatic and I'm very positive

and I'm now sort of taking every step at a time and I am very positive, but human instinct is to protect yourself and of course my children. The first thing I thought about was my children. How did you tell them? You've got to tell them because you're going to go through something enormous. People talk to you all the time. The word cancer will be heard in their house

and it's important to bring that up to them. I'm very lucky. I have two living examples of people who got through cancer in my family and it's my mother and my father. My mother had colon cancer and my father had prostate cancer. They were the living examples that I could give to my children. I would advise people to pick the right moment. I would say, do be as honest as you can, but don't frighten them. Tell them what you can and what you know. I knew I was going to have a big operation. I told them I was going to do that.

I told them that it was cancer, but I told them there can be positive. There are positive outcomes. Your grandma and your grandfather are still here and mummy will get through this. I was going to say though, while you're having that chat, how are you feeling about this? It was the hardest conversation

that I've ever had to have in my life. And I really had to steal myself and try not to cry and to be strong, but show them that you're vulnerable as well. And one of my little girls said, can we still hug you, mummy? And I said, of course you can. I'll need your hugs more than ever. Yes. I know. I'm going to give you a minute to just regroup if I can and maybe have a bit of water and bring in Liz at this point. For people listening to this, what is the information, the vital information you want to get across on Women's Hour this morning about the way that we can be as sure as we can about our breasts and our health?

I think the most important thing is for women to check their breasts regularly and to be taught how to do it properly. And I was a consultant breast surgeon and I didn't do it. I honestly didn't think I could get breast cancer. And then I got it when I was 40 and it came back when I was 43. And I'll put my hands up. Most of us do it when there's a celebrity like Julia,

you check your breasts and you forget. I think that's really, really important. There's a lot of stuff in the media about young women getting breast cancer and actually it is still really rare only four percent of all cases happen under the age of 40 it's much more common in women in their 70s and 80s but we hear about it because it's on the media but it can still happen the older you get and i think if you get called to have a mammogram take it up it's every three years from the age of 50 to 70 and you can still self-refer after the age of 70 because breast cancer doesn't stop at that age i think it's every three years from the age of 50 to 70 and you can still self-refer after the age of 70

because breast cancer doesn't stop at that age i think it's just being breast aware and just being sensible i think and in light of what julia was saying around the mammogram not showing an issue at first anyone who's concerned having heard that what would you say so mammograms are the best thing we have and they are pretty damn good but they do miss about one in two and a half thousand cancers um some women have very dense breasts and mammograms work by picking up a white cancer on a black background and if you have dense breasts because of the hormones at the time of the menopause your breasts look white and it's hard to see a white cancer on a white breast there's also a type of cancer called lobular cancer

that grows in sheets and not a lump, so that can be missed. And sometimes about three in a thousand women who have a mammogram have a cancer that comes between mammograms. And it either was there, but it was very subtle and no one knew, or it was missed because we're all human

and we make mistakes. But for most women, the mammograms are actually really accurate. And the whole point of breast screening is to pick a cancer up so more women can avoid a mastectomy and hopefully avoid chemotherapy. And they do save lives. In terms of the context that we're talking in as well, just at the moment, face-to-face GP appointments have dropped.

Some figures have it from 80% pre-pandemic to 57% it's been put at in July. A lot of people very concerned about things being missed. What do you have to say about that? I think most GPs are fantastic at referring every woman with any breast symptoms straight to a breast clinic. 95% of the women I saw as a surgeon didn't have cancer. They're just the worried world, but they need to see have cancer they're just the worried well but they need to see me they need to have a mammogram scan to check and a lot of GPs can often just have a phone conversation say you've got a breast lump I'll send you up and most breast clinics have been running often in the private parts of hospitals because they're clean and they're

COVID free it's if you're worried and you find a lump and it's still there in a couple of weeks just contact your GP some GPs will fob you off. There aren't many. We're all human. We all make mistakes. We think, I'm sure it's going to be nothing. So it is trust yourself. But on the whole, every GP I've worked with has been fantastic

at just sending women in because they know, even I as a surgeon, I'm going to miss cancers. None of us are 100% accurate. Liz Arudan, thank you very much for that. Julia, this is where you find yourself at the moment. I know you've got your surgery, I believe, booked for a few weeks time. How are you feeling about that? Yes, my surgery is booked for October. I should just say my mum was listening to this interview and she's just come up to give me a hug. I can see on the Zoom video she's put her arm around you. So surgery is coming up in a few weeks. Obviously, it's a huge, huge thing that we women go through.

To lose a breast, to lose two breasts is a massive trauma to our emotional state. And I'm going to spend the next few weeks preparing myself physically and mentally and emotionally for that. And I will share anything that I think is helpful and useful to other women out there along the way but obviously my main focus over the next few weeks is going to be concentrating on me and how I'm going to get through this I will be seeing a counsellor I will be taking as much advice and as help as I can possibly get and people like Liz are a fantastic example she's a very very strong woman who's been through this herself. And there's a lot of help out there. And I would say to people who are frightened and think something's been missed, the charities out there are amazing. The support out there is amazing.

And I know there are women who are frightened to go because they're frightened of the diagnosis. But I would much rather be talking to you now about the possibility of losing a breast and living for my children and being here to talk to you again in a year's time than not to have gone and for the situation to have been much, much worse. So I urge women to trust your body and get checked. Julia Bradbury speaking there and Liz Arriddon, both in conversation with Emma earlier in the week. Your emails came in. Jan says, I've had breast cancer twice, 20 years apart and two different types, both times chemo, mastectomy and radiotherapy. Even at the start of the first COVID shutdown, treatment continued.

Please tell her to keep positive. It really helps. Say yes to help and support from friends. They will be the ones to see you through and will understand when you're feeling rough and when it's all over, will keep you positive. Do not grieve the loss of a breast, but celebrate the loss of the cancer. That is what matters. Now, the Canadian-American singer-songwriter Martha Wainwright has released her first album in five years. Love Will Be Reborn is what Martha calls a shedding of a skin. It was released last

month, written in an effort to rise out of some painful depths. The album doesn't just reflect the darkness she went through during a difficult divorce, but it also reflects the light of finding a new love. She's in London for a 10-day UK tour, which started this week, and she came into Woman's Hour HQ to speak to Emma and started by telling her what it's like to perform post-pandemic. It is a world of difference for artists like me because you know I was able to make a record I was able to do some radio or do some television spots and do some stuff some live streams from my living room, and which I think everybody's gotten tremendously bored with at this point. I mean, I'm just so overly excited.

Yeah, I know, it's just like really getting boring. So just to be able to be there present and see people and I got to sign records afterwards. And it was just really moving. Well, also what you're writing about this time, I imagine as with a lot of your music, you want to connect with people, you want to share and they come to you because they come to their favourite artists because there's something that they feel they're going to get from them in their lives.

And with this particular piece of music, with the album, with the song you're about to sing, Love Will Be Reborn, where did that come from for you? Well, the song was actually, Love Will Be Reborn. Where did that come from for you? Well, the song was actually, Love Will Be Reborn, was actually written here in London about four years ago. It's the first song that I wrote for this new record. And I was really surprised when it sort of came out of me very quickly

through tears at how hopeful and positive it is because it would seem that I was just really in a kind of a scary place. I was on the road. I was at the beginning of a difficult separation and divorce. I hadn't seen my children in a while. There was a lot of uncertainty. But this sort of positive mantra showed up and came through my voice and my fingers.

And so I've been holding on to that for the last long while. And just being able to sing it and being able to sing in general really helps. You know, everyone knows that who sings. It just really helps in your emotional state of mind and any crisis that you might be going through. And these songs, like most of my songs, like a lot of my records are, you know, quite autobiographical or they're sort of based on things that are happening in my life.

But very quickly, I think the idea is that there are things that many people can identify with, sort of the more personal, the more universal. And that you can feel in the audience. Why don't we hear? Yeah, okay. Every part of me I know But the key is falling deep into the snow So when the spring comes I will find it And unlock my heart to unwind it Beautiful, Martha Wainwright, Love Will Be Reborn.

A song that was born, you say, here in the UK when you were making some journeys and it came to you as a mantra. You say in some of the words that I've read when you've been speaking to people about your divorce that it was so dark and you'd never expected to feel such hate, which is a strange question, perhaps off the back of that. But the darkness for people is so real. I think that's, you know, it can be really overwhelming. And it's so sad to use that word because it's harsh. And, you know, and I think about, obviously, adored and loved my ex-husband, Brad Albedo, who's, I think, been in the studio with me, worked with me for many years. And we have two beautiful children. And I'm hopeful that maybe there'll be some reconciliation at some point and that we can get beyond this difficult time. And

it's already getting better, I would say. It has to, because you just have to start to let go. And for me, it was about the kids. And because I travel for a living and I don't have a conservative type of job and, you know, when there's custody issues that come up and money issues that come up, it gets really, it can get really scary, you know, and you can just have these really strong feelings that I never thought I would be dealing with and anger, you know, and fear. I think that that was really the biggest fear of not being able to have access to your children and being afraid of being, you know, it's just hard, you know, when you work nights or you're kind of considered different than, you know, judges or, you know, the court systems can be kind of rough on you and you just get really scared. Well, I mean, the song is so beautiful and love in your life now, I believe, is a good new reality.

Exactly. I guess it's sort of a classic thing. You know, I got divorced around the age of 40, 41. And, you know, you sort of go, well, I guess that's kind of it. And, you know, I'll try and go out and have some fun. But it's sort of like, you know, I was sort of, you know, just feeling bad about myself, I guess, and then to meet someone later in life, which is a different type of relationship where you just, in this case, it was just more on based on, you know, like, lovingness and trust and kindness. And it was just all it was just really unexpected. And in fact, you know, I sort of had these feelings of anger and and there was hatred and I, you know, towards my ex because I just get so mad, you know, and, and, and you kind of go, God, I wish you just, you know towards my ex because I just you get so mad you know and and and you kind of go god I wish you'd just go wrong you know and then but instead something good

happens you go well I guess that's better. Wasn't she wonderful Martha Wainwright talking to Emma and Toby emailed in to say I saw Martha perform in 2008 at Oxford Town Hall, of all places. It's not a great music venue, but she set the place on fire. She was such a powerful presence. Big up to Martha and love to all at Woman's Hour. Oh, thanks, Toby. Still to come on the programme, the formidable campaigner Grace Tame, who was named Australian of the Year and sexism in gaming and the use of hate raids on the platform Twitch.

And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the Daily Podcast for absolutely nothing. It's totally free via BBC Sounds. Now I'm going to take you back 40 years to the 80s. Remember them? MTV has just landed. We watched Madonna's Like a Prayer video on repeat,

still a classic. Dance music was making its way to our shores and into the clubs. And if you were a girl from a South Asian family, getting out to a club at night wasn't that straightforward. But kids will always find a way to party. And to swerve the small issue of having to tell your parents what you're up to, the Daytimer was born. A club in the day. British South Asian kids from across the country, from Bradford to Birmingham, Manchester to London, were bunking off school or college to go rave it up

and still be home in time for Ruddy. They were jumping around to Bangra classics, R&B, hip-hop, soul, swing, and they lasted for around 20 years, but with the turn of the millennium, the daytime raves disappeared. Until now, that is. Daytimers UK is a new music collective made up of British South Asian DJs taking inspiration from the daytime raves of the 80s and 90s. They're reviving the way South Asian heritage and culture are displayed in public life. That's just a tiny snippet of Gracie T's Boiler Room set,

which you can watch on YouTube. Well, I spoke to DJ Rithu, one of the pioneers of the scene, and DJ Priya and Gracie T from the New Daytimers UK collective. First, DJ Rithu on the concept of daytime raves. They were incredible places to be in. They started, as you said, Anita, in the 1980s. They happened all over the UK. And it was just very strange being at them because outside you'd be in broad daylight and then you'd go indoors to one of these raves where there might be

anything between hundreds to thousands of young Asian people. And it was just like being in a nightclub. And people were dancing to the sounds of the Bhangra bands that were huge at the time. Yeah, absolutely amazing. I played at one of those raves at the Hammersmith Palais. Oh, yeah, look, lots of people are messaging in on Twitter, actually. Someone's just said, I used to bunk off school to go to the Hammersmith Palais. A real moment in South Asian youth culture. Definitely, definitely. And let's not forget how the daytimeers came about. In the 80s, a lot of venues didn't see Asian promoters as being a viable prospect. And so consequently, the only slots that were offered to these promoters were a daytime option, usually a

weekday option and not primetime weekends either. And then what happened in the 90s was the daytimers became night timers. And that was like what the music scene moved on, did it? The music scene moved on. I think we were regarded as commercially viable. And one of the first regular clubs to open in the 90s was, in fact, in September 1993. And it was Bombay Jungle at the WAG club in Wardour Street. It was a huge two-floor venue, there were 700 South Asian kids packed inside and another 700 outside that couldn't get in and when you were in the building, I mean it was just hot, sweaty, euphoric clubbers, hands in the air. Absolutely amazing.

And the music policy was not just Bhangra. It was Bhangra, it was hip hop, it was raga, swing, R&B and jungle. And then what happened to them? Where did they disappear to? What happened? Well, the night time clubs continued. Nothing really ever disappeared. But I think what did happen was when we look at perhaps after we get into the 2000s, I think media interest started to wane. There was actually two types or more than two types maybe of nighttime activity as far as the British Asian music scene was concerned. You had the Bhangra clubs and you also had the Asian underground ones which kicked off mostly around the East End of London. There were events being run by sound systems like Joy and Date of Bengal in community centres in East London.

And then you had the first regular night, which began at the Blue Note in Hoxton, which at that time was called the Bass Club. And that was on Tuesday nights, and it was from 1992, run by the Joy Sound System. Brilliant. Stepping into my era now. Loving this. We're getting a really good history lesson

of sort of South Asian youth culture in the UK and then let's bring it up to the modern day. I'm going to bring in two young female DJs, DJ Priya and Gracie T, who have formed the new collective called Daytimers UK. Gracie, let me come to you first. Why did you set up Daytimers? How did this all come about? It's lovely to hear from Ritu about the history of it because obviously

we're here in the present day trying to create a resurgence. So Daytimers was set up about a year ago now with Propat and Sherwin. They reached out to a group of us who were all kind of finding ways to reconnect with our culture. So we're all involved with music already and a group of us who were all kind of finding ways to reconnect with our culture so we were all involved with music already and a lot of us were in very kind of white male spheres in our different cities and we decided you know we need to create this space again for South Asian artists whether that be music or art or fashion we need to create that space for ourselves again specifically people who identify as female or non-binary or trans we need to create that new space again for them it came at a time that I was fairly established in Sheffield and music and it gave me joy to just

talk with other brown people about something that I loved so much. But Priya, how about you? What inspired you to get into DJing? It was someone in the family, wasn't it? Yeah. So growing up, my auntie was actually a DJ, one of my biggest inspirations. To be honest, I never actually thought I would become a DJ or planned on DJing and I kind of fell into it uh literally you know social media I saw an advert on Facebook it really was like the butterfly effect I clicked on it and here I am I love it and what is that feeling like because I've seen I've been following you guys from the very beginning and I've seen the energy and the vibe you create in those rooms and like you say all those and it's not just brown kids,

it's kids from all backgrounds, but lots of Asian faces in one room. What does that feel like? Like you say, Gracie, when you've just been growing up in very white environments to all of a sudden be surrounded by kids like you, what does that do? Yeah, for me, because I'm mixed race and I'm from like a very small town in the Northeast, that's never been something that I've grown up around. So for me, like Boilery and being there with Pri was just, I just felt elated.

It was just amazing. Like at the end of it, we all went to the green room, cut a cake and just cried because it was just so lovely. I love that. We cut a cake. That's my kind of night out. Cup of tea and a slice of cake. Ridley, you're smiling away. Is this bringing back memories? Well, I don't remember us ever cutting a cake um yeah we consumed lots of other

things to be honest um but i do absolutely relate to that sense of uh feeling like you found your tribe and um finding comfort zones and places where we can be who we are yeah in a really you know in a really nice way um rithi where are the women in this scene i know we're talking to you which is brilliant and i know you know it's really important to the daytimeers collected now to sort of mention the people who came before but where are the women surely there were lots of I know there were lots of women involved well as women we were in a minority uh on the British Asian music scene um but um those of us that were there uh I think were incredibly influential um We played an enormous role in shaping the development of the scene and sustaining it, I think, and also making it the success that it was.

I mean, this was one of the most vibrant music scenes to come out of British music history ever. And yet, why does it still feel so niche? I think we were too busy making history and not saying that we were making history. We were too busy doing, and we were challenging a lot of the status quo, politically, socially,

the stereotypes around us as South Asian people and the second generation or so in the diaspora. So we were kind of busy. I think the media perceived us as they perceived us, and they perceive us now as they perceive us. And at that time, we were also very, very dependent on press coverage. This is pre-social media times. You know, we relied on journalists and photographers and so on to tell our stories and to explain what we were doing. And some of that was accurate and some of it was not so. And then they lost interest. Not now, though,

because the Daytimers UK collective are back and they're being very noisy about it. Your boiler room set was brilliant, both of you. Do you know what really stands out for me as well? I'm looking at your Instagram account. This popped up and I noticed this, is how you are creating, you have a mission,

a dance floor safer space mission. Tell us about that, Gracie. Yeah, so with our safe space policy, Priya's really involved with this as well. We looked at the way the music scene is functioning at the moment and it's still kind of full of the same heads running things, gatekeeping everything, you know, it's not just who's playing the nights, it's people at the nights and I think as female identifying DJs we don't always feel safe on a night out, I don't

always feel safe at a gig and through Daytimers we've suddenly had kind of the platform and the resources to change that and create the safe space that we want to see all over the music industry not just at day timers events i know it's absolutely brilliant reading through the basically things like just very polite if you want to walk past somebody you know say excuse me or just tap them on the shoulder very different experience when i was going out clubbing priya there's an iconic photograph that we've put on all our social media here at Woman's Hour of DJ Radical Sister, Rani Kaur. And that photograph really inspired you guys, didn't it? And that photograph is from the 80s.

Yeah, definitely. So just to see history being captured like that and to know that we can even recreate little moments. You know, obviously, Gracie's Boiler Room show she's playing in a Lenga I'm playing in my um well I'm not playing but it feels like I did to be honest but everybody was in their cultural clothes and I never ever thought I would ever have that you know being able to go to a show feeling safe in my own clothes surrounded by people that I care about it's been absolutely incredible and that is also a photo that I have seen before it's so iconic you know my musty has shown you that

photo before um so to know that me and my friends we all are inspired by the same photo it's just such a lovely feeling I'll never be able to describe how amazing it is it makes my heart swell Gracie T, DJ Priya and DJ Ridley there. Now Grace T might not be a name you know or many of us know in this country but down under the picture is different as this year she was named Australian of the Year. Grace was 15 when she was repeatedly sexually abused by a 58 year old-old schoolteacher at her school. The man was eventually put in prison. But fast forward a decade, in 2019, Grace was changing the law through her Let Her Speak campaign.

She took a legal case to be able to publicly speak in her own name. At the time, sexual assault survivors in Tasmania were prohibited from speaking out under their name, even if their attacker had been found guilty. The law was changed last year, thanks to her and the campaign. Yeah, so there was a specific piece of legislation here in Tasmania, which is the state of Australia, it's one of eight states. And that specific piece of legislation made it illegal for survivors of child sexual abuse to self-identify and share their stories publicly under their own name in the media, even after they turned 18

and gave their consent to do so in the interest of, sorry, in public interest, you know, for the purposes of education and progress. And wanting to perhaps as well for themselves own their story and talk out. Yeah, to take some power back, I suppose, because, you know, abuse, and in particular child sexual abuse, is characterised by a complete loss of power and autonomy at the hands of, you know, a pedophile or a perpetrator. And why was this so important for you? So I was driven by, you know, this burning need to share my experience

of grooming, to help shed some light on it and to educate the public, you know, and to end the silence, you know, because evil thrives in silence. It's a weapon of evil. And in terms of what happened to you as a child, it was with regards to what your teacher did to you and how he groomed you. Yeah. So I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse. Actually, I was first abused as a six-year-old by an older child who asked me to go into a closet and undress before molesting me. Now, when I was 15, I had moved from a public co-ed primary school to an all-girls high school, and I was battling anorexia. And one of the things that underpinned my anorexia was my experience of abuse as a six year old. And I shared that experience of abuse with one of my teachers, who was, you know,

positioning himself as somebody who had an interest in helping me who cared for me, he was in a duty, he had a duty of care. And little did I know that he was a serial pedophile and he actually had other victims before me. He was there from 1992 until I reported him in 2011. So when I shared this experience of being molested as a six-year-old in a closet, little did I know I was offering up valuable information to a pedophile that would later use that information against me. He then started a process of grooming me, you know, gradually exposing me to sexually explicit content, you know, films, books that glorified relationships between characters with significant age differences, where he wore me down. And then he eventually actually introduced the physical sexual abuse

of me by locking me in a closet and recreating my experience of molestation as a six-year-old to scare me into submission. And this continued, this abuse of you for some time? Yes, yes. You know, each time he saw me after that, he would add another unforeseeable element. You know, he used failed threats like, you know, I'd lose my job if anyone hears about this and you wouldn't want that,

would you? I mean, this is a man who was twice my size and almost four times my age um and yeah he eventually uh he tried the first time he tried to rape me he actually didn't succeed in penetrating me so he ended up dropping me off on the side of the road um but he did he did eventually succeed in raping me and then that became the norm he would he would rape me before school, after school, on weekends. And, yeah, the abuse went on for months. It ended when the school year ended at the end of 2010, just before we broke for the summer holidays.

But he continued to stalk me well into the next year, into 2011. You know, he was turning up to my work on weekends. He was, you know, sitting outside my house at night in his car. He learned my timetable. So, you know, even though he wasn't actually one of my teachers in year 11, I would, you know, sometimes be overwhelmed with this feeling like someone was watching me in class and I would look over my shoulder and he'd be standing in the classroom doorway just staring me down. And so I eventually, you know, I eventually reached this sort of turning point where my crippling fear of this man was surpassed by anger and also, you know, I had this knowledge in the back of my mind that he had abused other girls because he used to boast

to me about other girls that he'd abused. And I thought, you know, my silence and inaction in this case could potentially be, you know, a factor in somebody else's abuse and I couldn't live with myself with that. So I disclosed to another, interestingly, to another male teacher, a brilliant man by the name of William Simon, who is a proud gay man with a demonstrative value of people over policy and a healthy disrespect to the status quo. I took a gamble and I thought if anyone would understand,

you know, it's someone who's probably been, you know, had an experience of being marginalised and ostracised himself. And so I did. I told him and he did not pass the buck. He did not minimise or, you know, attempt to reduce my pain in any way. In fact, he took the next step towards justice with me and he went with me to the school principal and I then told the school principal and then I told the police.

And that led to him going to prison? Yes, yes. He was found, the police found him with 28 multimedia files of child abuse material on his computer, including a trophy file of some of the other students who were topless, who had to be identified by another member of staff. But he was charged, interestingly, he was charged with maintaining a sexual relationship with a person under the age of 17.

Now, that same exact charge in other jurisdictions around Australia was the persistent sexual abuse of a child. If you doubt what impact language has on perception, the first front page headline that came out in our local paper in Tasmania because of the wording of that charge, the first front page headline that came out was teacher admits to affair with student. Now, I read that and my family read that. I was 16 when I read that. In fact, I read a glorified description of the exact moment that pedophile had recreated my childhood trauma by locking me in a closet for his own gain. It's an extraordinary story in the truest sense of the word.

And I think the words that you talk about being important to people, so many people listening to this will be able to understand that and some of them will be able to empathise. But a lot of people, if they'd gone through anything remotely like that, may think, I don't want to be anything to do with this in the future. I don't want this to be who I am. And perhaps I don't want my name out there because I want to try and move on and do something completely different.

You have been named Australian of the Year. You have completely done the opposite. You've built your campaigning work around your experience to try and help others. But I wanted to know from a personal point of view, why did you want your name to be out there? Well, that wasn't part of my decision. It wasn't that I wanted my name to be out there at all. It's just that I knew that there had to be work done. I knew that I knew that it was just, that's, that's, that's been my, you know, guiding force, if you will, that my motivation the whole, whole way through is just this want to help and educate and protect others and and I will do whatever it takes to to to achieve progress for the greater good you know and if that means

putting myself on the line and being out there in the in the public sphere where you know people still you know it's interesting you would think that the issue of of child sexual abuse is a pretty, you know, no-brainer, absolute wrong, but there are still obviously, you know, there are pedophiles out there, there are rape apologists out there and I cop a lot of hatred. It's certainly in the minority in terms of the responses, but I do, you know, and if that's what needs to happen, then, you know, that's all part and parcel. This is much bigger than me and it's much bigger than any individual. Did it feel, how did it feel to win or be honoured as Australian of the Year for 2021?

Oh, look, you know, it was very surreal. You know, I'm just a representative of a community of child sexual abuse survivors, which is a community that has been stigmatised and marginalised for such a long time. And so to be there as a representative honoured in that way, you know, as child sexual abuse survivor has never been honoured in that way before. To be that person was one of the greatest privileges and honours of my very short life. How old are you now, Grace? 26. You know, and it was one of the most, honestly,

one of the most beautiful things I have ever witnessed in my life to be standing there in a room full of you know some of the most accomplished um outstanding Australians from all walks of life you know from all sides of politics you know we've got all different ages um and every single person after I made my speech, you know, I was looking out into the audience, every single person in the room was crying and every single person in the room was embracing somebody else. It was this real, it was watching permission being granted

in real time for people to tap into their humanity again and to be vulnerable, which is something that we've been conditioned away from or we're very easily conditioned away from in the West. You're now working on another campaign around consent across Australia. Tell me about that and what are you hoping for there? So what we're trying to achieve is harmonisation of definitions and legislation that pertain to sexual assault. So currently we've got eight different jurisdictions

across Australia that govern the issue of sexual assault and therefore we have eight different definitions of consent, eight different definitions of sexual intercourse, eight different definitions of the age of a child, and eight different definitions of the age of consent, as well as eight different definitions of grooming. And in fact, grooming is not even defined at all in some jurisdictions. So what we're trying to do is establish a consensus. We're trying to establish

a national approach to these issues. Because until we have a consistent definition and understanding of each of these things, we can't possibly hope to educate properly around them. And that's part of the problem. Powerful conversation. Grace Tame talking to Emma. Now, Twitch, as some of you may already know, especially the gamers amongst you, is a platform where millions of people come together to chat and livestream games. But recently, it's been influxed with hate raids, a way of abusing marginalised members.

Two women who want gaming to be a safe space, free of discrimination, are Cassie Hughes, co-founder of Black Twitch UK, and Shea Thompson, a gamer and gaming presenter and journalist. How did she first get into gaming? When I was a kid, I had my older brother who introduced me to Sega Mega Drive, you know, play like Streets of Rage, you know, really classic games, Altered Beast, things like that. And I was always fascinated with the stories you could tell with sort of less technology,

because obviously you only had 16-bit back then. So you could tell so many stories with such limited technology. And of course, that's just developed and progressed over the years since then. Indeed. I was casting my mind back to my Game Boy, which still works all these years on my original one in a bum bag I got given. Cassie, tell me, for you, what was it like? What was the thing that caught your imagination? stealing and hurt you know those handhold games that had like 99 games on one yeah but you could

get from wheelhouse it started like that and then um being left to entertain ourselves um my sibling and I and then we had like one of those snares you know the ones that you had to blow in the cartridge and then just a lot of shouting in the house at being better. So that was the way we resolved everything. If you can beat me in this game, then you have to do this. And that's how I ended up doing

all the washing up in my house. It's good to get that insight into both of you. And Scrabble being the gateway as well. An interesting one. Cassie, thanks for that. Shay, this is a huge love of you and the people that you game with and a lot of fun we can hear that but i mentioned these hate raids um what is that and and how is that impacting people like yourself so raids are a feature on twitch which lets streamers send their viewers to another channel

when they're done for the day and it's normally a nice thing to help support up and coming streamers. But there are people who have taken that really lovely thing for the sole purpose of sending abuse and harassment to quite often like marginalized creators. They flood the chat with bots who overwhelm it with abusive and hateful messages and slurs and things like that, which is obviously not really nice to see. It can really throw unsuspecting streamers off guard and you know actually kind of get people in trouble since

uh people who aren't expecting that to happen you know they can get banned because they're basically in control of what happens in their chat so it's just you know it's a really terrible thing all around and cassie what's been your experience of this so shea had it exactly right that's exactly what hate rating is um over the past i would say month it's really been amped up um a lot um but it's horrible because obviously as streamers we do a lot of sponsored streams and we're in featured and lights on highlights on twitch it can be quite difficult because if you've got, say, a brand working with you, it undermines the whole stream because you can't focus on what you need to do because there's

really hateful things. And it's more than just, oh, don't worry, ignore it. It can be sharing personal information. It can be threats. Obviously, we know about the George Floyd murders. It's laughing about that in the chat and then spamming things like, oh, we wish it happened to you constantly. And there's nothing you can do but be able to stop what you have to do. There's a lot of, like, moderation that we have, but it's just it feels very unprotected at times. And they target people that are vulnerable on the platform.

Is that, Cassie, is that more towards women would you say or or is there another pattern i would say it's for women it's for black creators it's for members of the lgbtqia trans creators pretty much anyone that's not white male I would say over the past month or so significantly more I think as a black woman that streams on Twitch when I've spoken to my friends that are white women on Twitch they were so shocked when they saw my chats when I was on like a featured front page and they said that they've had things where people are, you know, sexist, like get in the kitchen or things like that. But the messages that they'd seen in my chat, they hadn't come across. A statement from Twitch that we've got just to share with you and with all of our listeners. Hate and harassment against any member of our community is completely against our values and terms of service. No one should have to experience this on Twitch. These targeted attacks

against marginalised members of our community have been organised by online networks of highly motivated bad actors who are determined to spread hate by any means. We're working around the clock to combat them through legal action and a number of new safety tools that we plan to launch in coming months. I'm really minded, Cassie, and to come back to you, Shay, that you want people, of course, though, to be part of this, you know, not part of that, but part of this community and be enjoying the gaming side and women and those who might not have thought it's for them. What would you say in light of these hate raids to say to people who perhaps do want to get involved but don't know how, Shay?

It's awful because, you know, streaming has been a way for people to kind of stay connected and build new communities over the last year, year and a half. And so, of course, I want people to get involved in that. But it's almost like undertaking a massive risk by doing so because then you leave yourself open to, you know, a lot of abuse and harassment and slurs. And I think I do think that Twitch could be doing a lot more to protect their users and like people on the platform, because, you know, like there have been community tools and software being developed, but that should have come from Twitch way sooner, you know, way, way sooner, honestly. And I mean, this is a story I suppose we hear across social media. But do you think there is an added element here

with it being to do with gaming, Shay? Very briefly, if you can. It's the same thing with the internet, right? Like there are always going to be pockets of bad actors making everything worse for everybody. But, you know, with that, we do have people making, you know, the community being the shining beacon of light that we've needed for the past year.

So, you know, what comes with the good comes with the bad. It's the classic thing, right? Shay Thompson and Cassie Hughes. And if you'd like to comment on anything you've heard today or during the week, then please do get in touch with us. We would love to hear from you. You can email us via our website. Now, what time is it? Still daylight? I'm off to a rave. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story,

settle in. Available now.