Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: EastEnders 40th anniversary, Grandparenting, Maternal mental health

Episode Date: February 15, 2025

Laura Kyrke-Smith MP wants more care and support for new mothers struggling with their mental health. Her own friend died by suicide just 10 weeks after giving birth and she recently led a debate in parliament on the subject. Laura joined Nuala McGovern to discuss the changes she wants to see. They were joined by perinatal psychologist Dr Alain Gregoire from the Maternal Mental Health Alliance.As EastEnders celebrates its 40th anniversary, Woman’s Hour discusses the iconic soap’s track record of featuring strong female characters with actors Michelle Collins, Kellie Bright, Diane Parish and Heather Peace.How easy is it to navigate the role of grandparent? The pyschologist Terri Apter, author of Grandparenting: On Love and Relationships Across Generations joined Anita Rani to discuss the topic. This year marks the 30th anniversary of the Women’s Prize for Fiction which was established to recognise the literary achievements of female writers. There have been huge improvements in sales for fiction written by women since then, however only 34 per cent of the top 500 non-fiction books in 2022 were written by women. The Women's Prize awarded its inaugural non-fiction category last year and have just released their 2025 longlist. Will it have the same impact as the Fiction Prize? The Women’s Prize co-founder Kate Mosse and this year’s Chair of the Non-Fiction Prize, journalist and author Kavita Puri join Nuala.Performance poet Caitlin O'Ryan's poem, At What Point, about walking home alone went viral. She performed an extract of the poem live in the studio. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to a selection of standout moments from the week just gone. In celebration of EastEnders turning 40, Woman's Hour came live from Albert Square. You can hear from some of the amazing cast about the strong female characters and women-led storylines that have led the soap over the years. Also, navigating the grandparent role, we'll hear from psychologist Terry Apter. Non-fiction books written by women make up just 34% of the top 500 bestsellers. Coming up, the author

Kate Moss and this year's Chair of the Women's Prize for nonfiction and author Kavita Puri discuss why that is and what can be done to change it. Plus the poet Caitlin O'Brien will perform her poem called At What Point That Went Viral. But first, the Labour MP Laura Kirk-Smith is pushing for there to be more care and support for new mothers who are struggling with their mental health. One of her best friends, Sophie, died by suicide in 2021, just 10 weeks after giving birth to her third child. Recently Laura led a debate on the subject in parliament.

Laura and Alain Gregoire from the Maternal Mental Health Alliance joined Nuala in the Woman's Hour studio and Nuala began by asking Laura about Sophie. She had a wonderful life, she was hugely bright, creative, she had a high-flying Foreign Office career, she wrote plays and she started to raise her beautiful family and it's all her talents and her wonderful family that I wanted to be known for and remembered by, but she did die in incredibly shocking and tragic circumstances. It was COVID and I think that the tail end of the COVID pandemic and I think that played a role in her death. I think she was quite isolated, but at the same time I think a lot of mums But at the same time, I think a lot of new mums now can feel that sense of isolation.

It is a very, very challenging time of life, and I just hope that Sophie's death can be a catalyst for the change that we so need in society. So what is it that you're looking for? What do you think, whether it were Sophie or another new mum, what do you think was missing? So I think there are four areas and in the debate last week in Parliament I touched briefly on all of them. I think the first is around specialist care for people who are in really severe crisis so there's a really important need to just protect and keep

strengthening those perinatal mental health services that do exist. Every integrated care system in the country should have that kind of provision now but I do hear far too often including in the last week or so as I've been talking about this, mums that weren't able to get a bed in a mother and baby unit, for example, the beds weren't there or the provision was too far away, or perhaps their suicide risk or their severe mental health risks weren't assessed properly in the first place. So I talk about the need to protect those services. The second area I'm really focused on is just better embedding mental health support

in all of the routine care that someone receives in that first, in pregnancy and in that first year after birth. The average person sees 16 healthcare professionals during that time, whether that's midwives or health visitors or GPs. With each of those touch points with the health system, I think if mums were asked routinely and compassionately, not just about the baby but about their own mental health, I think that would go a long way towards making sure that the support, if they do need it, then kicks in. And of course, I'm very conscious

that what happened to my friend is awful. And suicide is the leading cause of death for women in that period from six weeks after they give birth to a year after birth. But I'm so conscious that whether it's postnatal anxiety, depression, OCD, PTSD, there are so many ways in which people suffer and sometimes in more mild ways. So while what happened to my friend is an extreme example, there are just so many women out there that need some form of support.

We did reach out to the NHS and I'll read a little of what they said. They said they're committed to ensuring all women and babies receive high quality care before, during and after pregnancy. They say their data shows that record numbers are now accessing opened 41 maternal mental health services with almost nine in ten women now reporting that they are receiving this support during pregnancy. And they also say if you're pregnant or have given birth recently and are struggling with your mental health then please ask your GP or other services for support that the NHS is there to help. But is that not enough? I think the support is improving there's no doubt

there's been great great improvements over the last few years and I know that the government now is really committed to maternal mental health as part of the long-term work that we want to do to to reform and to transform the NHS so I think the commitment is there and the guidance is is good it's very clear in the guidance that there should be support, mental health support for women in this period. But I think in practice, you know, it's partly because healthcare professionals are very stretched, it's partly, for many reasons I think in practice the support doesn't always kick in in the way that it needs to. Part

of that I think interestingly is women not always feeling like they can be honest about how much they're struggling. So there's an interesting statistic that 70% of women hide or underplay their mental health challenges. And I'll come back to what you heard during the debate as well because I understand it was over subscribed. Let me bring in Alan who I mentioned works with the Maternal Mental Health Alliance. You've been nodding a lot through what you've been hearing so far. But what point do you want to pick up on? I've been a perinatal psychiatrist, mother and baby psychiatrist for the last 40 years in the NHS and there's no doubt at all that there's been a dramatic improvement in all four nations of the UK

in the very specialist care that women can receive when they're extremely ill or at very high risk. But we have a huge challenge that we really shouldn't underestimate relating to the majority of women who are suffering, often in silence, with mental health problems during pregnancy and postnatally, who are not recognized by services, by the professionals that they see, and you know we mustn't forget the NHS invests huge amounts of money in maternity care where all women have contact with highly trained professionals but in physical health care and yet the most common health complication of having a baby is depression and that's just one of the mental health conditions and the main

cause of death postnatally is mental health. So when neglecting this huge area of need and of suffering. Both of you are mentioning that silence of 70% of people not coming forward. I mean, how do you break that aspect of it? Because the NHS may tell us that they have some services that are there and that we're hearing that it's improving, even if perhaps not enough according to some. But that silence, I'm just wondering how you get people to speak about something that they feel they can't? Well, the NCT, the National Childbirth Trust, a few years ago did a wonderful

survey of women with mental health difficulties, asking them why they didn't come forward with their difficulties, and that was very revealing. The main cause was that they feared talking about their mental health problems. Women were frightened that they would be judged and indeed very commonly that they would have their baby taken away because they had a mental health problem. That simply isn't true, that doesn't happen. But for some reason, that message is not getting through that your baby will remain with you even if you talk about these issues. I also want to come back to you Laura on a couple of aspects. I did see the speech that you gave in Parliament and you talked

about feeling guilt after this happened and I can't imagine such a painful time as well. And you're looking for more support for this. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah I did feel a lot of guilt at the time. I asked and I still do. I asked myself did I do enough? I think it's quite a common reaction when people die by suicide but you know Sophie and I were in very regular touch. Our little babies were about were the same age I was at home on maternity leave when this happened with my little one and we were constantly swapping notes about uh you know feeding and napping and you know as

as you do as as new mums and and I did sense through some of her messages I should say we weren't I didn't see her in the last few weeks because it was, it was COVID, she didn't want to see, she didn't want visitors. She was, and she was also at home recovering from a C-section. But we were in constant touch and I knew she was struggling. I knew she was worried about her babies feeding. I did worry that she might be experiencing postnatal depression and anxiety. I did even wonder if she was thinking about taking her own life. A couple of her messages suggest that she was struggling to know how to keep going and I just wish I had been bolder

in asking about that explicitly and all the advice out there from mind and from others is that if you are worried about someone experiencing, potentially experiencing suicidal thoughts, it's better to ask, it's better to try and have that conversation and that can play quite an important role in stopping them necessarily going through with it. So I've sort of thought about all of that quite a lot. And I know a lot of other mums that struggled with mental health have had children myself. And I think if I didn't necessarily know the right questions to ask, there'll be a lot of other people out there that don't.

We've talked a bit about the silence and the fear around this. And I just hope that by talking about it it I'm sort of giving other people more ability to ask the right questions. Yes and I do want to say if somebody listening has been affected by the issues we're talking about please do go to the BBC Action Line as well but I want to come back to you Elan because I think we hear there is such an eloquence about what Laura went through with her friend Sophia and if friends or family are worried about somebody who is going through pregnancy or has given birth, what should they do? They absolutely should encourage the mum to speak out about her,

the challenges she's facing, about how she's feeling and she can do that to her midwife, to her health visitor, to her GP and indeed the family can do that if mum feels intimidated in any way at all or embarrassed or shameful. All of these emotions and thoughts are so common, so encouraging her, supporting her. And the professionals out there absolutely do care about their mental health, it's just they've never been given the resources or the training to be able to deal with it in an active way, seeking out women, encouraging women as we should be doing in our maternity services to talk about their mental health problems. But if you

have those difficulties or you know somebody that does seek help from those professionals and there is help out there. So there are psychological therapies that prioritize women in the perinatal period. Maybe not enough of them, maybe absolutely not as Laura is asking for, embedded and integrated into maternity care, but there is help out there, so seek it. Don't be ashamed if you're suffering with your mental health at this time.

This is so common. Everybody keeping quiet doesn't help anybody, so speaking out, but also the professionals, the midwives, the health visitors, the GPs, need to be, need to do the speaking out actively and need to be supported and trained to do that and we're not quite there yet but this sort of program and this sort of speaking out will change that. And I do want to say as the advice was with the NHS is do get in touch with your GP and speak about the issues that you are experiencing.

Before I let you go, Laura, I know it was oversubscribed. I also saw you say that the stats look bleak, but this is actually a story of hope and potential. That's right and I think I was so pleased by the level of interest. I think there's a lot of colleagues of mine in Parliament who really care about this too and want to see things change. I hope there'll be more space to debate this in Parliament. I know more people would would like to, but fundamentally that's right. You know, what happened to Sophie was such a such a tragedy and there are awful stories out there.

But ultimately, this is such an opportunity for good preventative action. You know, if we can if we can support mums at this crucial and really pressured time in their lives, we set them up for success and we set their children up for success and we're doing such good for society in doing that. The MP Laura Kirk-Smith and Alain Gregoire from the Maternal Mental Health Alliance. And if you were listening to yesterday's program you'll know that we heard two listeners sharing their own experiences of postnatal depression. And if you missed that and want to catch up, you can listen back on BBC Sounds. And I must mention that if you've been affected by anything you've heard in today's programme, please go to the BBC Action Line website where you can find support

links. Now, EastEnders is turning 40 this year and on Thursday we were lucky enough to broadcast live from Albert Square, the Fox and Hare Salon to be precise. The long-running show's powerful and groundbreaking stories have included Michelle Fowler's teenage pregnancy, Peggy Mitchell's breast cancer and who can forget Christmas Day 1986 when 30 million of us were glued to our screens to watch dirty den watts serve his wife Angie with divorce papers.

Well, I was joined by Kelly Bright, who plays Linda Carter, Michelle Collins, who plays Cindy Beale and Heather Peace, whose character Eve Unwin married Sukhi Panisar on New Year's Day in the first lesbian wedding on the show. I was also joined by Diane Parrish, who plays Denise Fox. Her love triangle is at the centre of the Soaps live interactive episode this coming Thursday. Viewers, that's you, can decide whether she should have a future with Jack or Ravi. EastEnders champions women-led storylines, strong female characters and matriarchs. Here are some memorable moments involving some of those matriarchal women, Lou Beale, Pauline

Fowler, Doc Cotton and Kat Slater. In the old days your behaviour would have brought shame on this family. Pregnant while you're still at school, can't even bring the culprit to face the music or his responsibilities, lead a young sensitive lad up the garden path and finally to the altar and all in the name of Miss Independence. Oh no, Michelle Fowler can't be like her mother and her mother before her. Yes, don't you worry. We'll be all right this poke little house with three generations falling over each other. Four if you count the one that's on the way. See, go back to your office and write up your files and where the hell have you been? You've been out on that ruddy bike again, haven't

you? Do you know, she seems to think that getting pregnant is the only thing to have in a baby. She's spending a fortune on that bike. Never mind telling us who the father is. When's he going to pay his whack? That's what I'd like to know. But don't worry, it'll be all right. As long as good old Dependable Pauline keeps struggling along. I don't say this often enough, but I've got best husbands in the world. No, not on the bannisters, Jim. Any time you... You're looking well, Grandma.

Well, your Grandfather spoiled me. I was expecting a bed and breakfast. He'd only gone and booked a four-star hotel. You know, I've worked hard all my life, Bradley. Well, nothing else for it. But I could get used to a life of luxury, being weighed down and on foot. Jim, would you get me cardigan? You're not going to Spain, Ernestette.

Why not? Because I said so, alright? And after everything you say, do I? No! You can't tell me what to do! You ain't my mother! Yes I am! Absolutely magical moments. You can't help but smiling. I started by asking Diane Parrish, who her favourite matriarch is? One of my favourites, I've said that I've got two, one is Ange, the other one's Lou

Beale. Yeah. Because Lou Beale, I'll never forget sitting in that armchair, she was always in that armchair in the house, there was a throne where she sat and she just put the world to rights. But, you know, here we are as women and we do assign terms and names to women, especially women of a certain age. Phil isn't the most cheerful person in the world, but we don't use words like Harry Dunnell. We don't have words.

We don't have the same words that we use for women. Lou was tough because she had to be because she came from the wash house and you know, she was from that generation. Yeah. And I related to Lou because I come from a matriarchal family and in the Caribbean, you know, a lot of families are very matriarchal

and women are strong. And what I've always admired about this show is it was the first with real true diversity. Yeah. Real diversity. And my being here now, this long, is testament to that. And how important is it? It's very important.

And it's a challenge and it's work because you're pulling people out of their comfort zones because some people sit at home and they want to watch what's familiar to them. And we're giving them the unfamiliar, but also it's London. Unless you live in the East End, I was going to say. In which case, you know. It is London. That is London. It's made up of many different cultures and creeds, religions, and those things can come together, blend

and they can clash. And this show is, it's been fearless in showing those things. Absolutely. I think we should hear some more voices, some other strong female characters. This is going to really make you smile. And we're going to hear from Zaynab Khan, who escaped her violent partner, Yusuf. I mean mean it's going to take you through a gamut of emotions this one. Linda Carter whose husband Mick ran the Queen Vic pub who had a baby with Max Branning. She's now struggling with alcoholism. Pat whose colorful history with men and marriages put her at the helm of the Butcher Evans and Wicks clan. And of course, there's Peggy, mother of the infamous Mitchell brothers, Grant and Phil, arguably the best

known EastEnders matriarch. Enjoy this. Shame! You dare use that word to me? You talk about shame! When you can do this? This to your own wife? Look at me! Look at me, Yousuf! Look what you've done to me. You've destroyed my life. Why Yusuf? Why? You're an evil, deranged man. You're sick. Yeah, I'm done with the booze, Caff. So you say. No, no, no, I mean it. No, if I say I'm going to do something, then I do it. Linda, I could smell it the minute I walked in here. I'm so glad you popped by.

Go and get a coffee off someone else. I'm going to bed. No, just wait. I'm not having you standing there accusing me. Well, someone's got to. You almost confessed to Karen. Yeah, but I didn't, did I? You know, like I said, I've got it under control. Oh, what, by running off with Alfie?

Oh, oh, oh! You and Stacey have been yapping, have you? Did I? You know, like I said, I've got it under control. What about running off with Alfie? Oh, oh, oh! You and Stacey have been yapping, have you? Well, I'm not going. All right, so just back off. I'm his mother! And don't forget it! After what you've done to him. You think you're his mum, don't you? And Kevin's. All that proxies, what is your brain?

Do what? You think your mum's for the old bleeders square? Think they respect ya? They feel sorry for ya! Cos you're nothing but a worn out, dried up old egg! Ah ha ha! Will you listen to yourself, you stupid, fat old tart! The only thing Frank Butcher wanted from you was sex. Oh, well let's say you're right, then. Could that be because he wasn't getting enough from you was sex. Oh, well, let's say you're right, then could that be because he wasn't getting enough at home? Get out of my pub!

Poem for reference, that is Peggy Mitchell Phil's mum. The greatest Mitchell matriarch who will ever exist. Just so you know. I can't listen to myself. It's like the worst. You know, when you have you ever done that, where you hear yourself on a voice note that you've left accident, you know, you accidentally press it and you go, that's not me anyway. Yeah. But but anybody who thinks that there isn't comedy,

and it's all that intense drama and but just like proper working class women. They also like to see women slap each other on his tenders. When I first came back, all people talked about was the slap between Gathy and Cindy. They love it. I've got to read out some of the messages coming in from the audience. You'll enjoy these. I just wanted to say to Heather that Heather and Bal are fantastic. And as a lesbian woman in the same age bracket as even Suki,

it's so refreshing to see their beautiful relationship. Bridget says, I found out I was expecting my first woman in the same age bracket as Even Sookie. It's so refreshing to see their beautiful relationship. Bridget says, I found out I was expecting my first child on the same day Pauline found out she was pregnant with Martin. My baby is 40 years old. Our time flies. But did you name the baby Pauline? That's what we want to know. Hello Anita.

Andy Stenders Cast, as a loyal viewer from day one, it could be said that EastEnders saved my life in a bad marriage that was controlling, it could be said that EastEnders saved my life. In a bad marriage that was controlling, which was not a recognised thing as it was so long ago, and getting her stomach pumped helped me to get the same help after I took drastic measures back then. So thank you to her, the writers and all the cast over the years that I am still here. It's powerful stuff. What do you think when you hear things like that Kelly? I'm very lucky. I feel like I have been blessed with very, very a couple of really, really important hard-hitting stories over the years that I've been here but I think the power lies in the fact that it has been running for 40

years. You will never get the same relationship with an audience that you will if you're in a fantastic series even because it's on for a finite amount of time and you have an arc as a character, it has a beginning, a middle and an end. I'm in the middle of Linda's life like I'm in the middle of my life I hope but essentially that's its power. Yeah. That is its power because we have the time to tell these stories and the audience really

invest in people that they've known a long time. Yeah, well, you become part of our families, don't you? Michelle, you recently said, the TV isn't great for women of a certain age, but soaps are. Why? Because women of a certain age have voices

and there are stories out there. And, you know, with, again, Cindy's affair, people will be so used to seeing a man having an affair. But when it's a woman having an affair, again, I said, it's like, oh no, she's, you know, and people say, oh, is she a villain? No, I don't think she's a villain. I really don't. I mean, she has vulnerabilities and, you know, and I think a lot of women have also said, great, that a woman is having, is, you know, enjoying that kind of whole thing at 60, whatever Cindy

is. And I think it's really important that our voices are out there and our stories. Well, it's exactly what we've been saying, that sort of shifting of perception that actually what is the, you're kind of setting the moral of change. It is changing in drama now. Drama is following suit with the likes of Sarah Lancashire.

And you know, it is slowly happening, but it's been happening here for 40 years. I remember it used to be called the gray area and actually by agents and casting people It is slowly happening, but it's been happening here for 40 years. And that's... I remember it used to be called the grey area and actually by agents and casting people used to... You went to that grey area now. I know. It's true.

It's true. You stop being the love interest. That's absolutely right. You'd have to wait. You'd have to wait to... Mother or grandmother. Yeah. There's a whole like 40s, wasn't it?

Well, Diane, let's talk about your storyline, because something very exciting is happening for you. Denise's love triangle. It's, how are you feeling about this? The centre of the live interactive episode. This is the first time in the show's history that EastEnders viewers. Shrinking. Will be able to cast the vote to influence the outcome of your story.

So, and we're asking them, who should Denise's future be with? Ex-husband Jack or a lover Ravi? Welcome of your story. So, and we're asking them, who should Denise's future be with? Ex-husband Jack or lover Ravi? Tell us about the two men. Well, they're not. Well, tell us about what the attraction is. Well, one was her husband, one was her husband Jack, and they've got a history of their children. They got together, I think, because of the circumstances in their lives. I think they were attracted to each other, but very quickly got into the domesticity of their relationship, which happens

with couples. And then you sort of lose each other. You become sort of passing ships in the night. And then obviously with teenagers, there is, as I know, that very difficult, turbulent period with teenagers where your life isn't about yourself, it's about them, it's about the things they're going through, their issues. So they had all of that and Denise felt unseen. With Ravi, he dovetailed in just at that perfect time when she was feeling like she should be frisky, but she's

having to sort of like, you know, pack teenage lunches and go to hockey matches. And, and so he came in and said, you're attractive and saw her. Um, then obviously there was the awful bits in between, but they're two very different men. Denise does seem to have a track record for men a little younger. But we love it for your character. Yes, we do. Do we? Are you enjoying it?

And why not? Why not? And why not? Why not? Yes. We do, do we? Are you enjoying it? And why not? Why not? Why not? Absolutely. And the thing is, like Michelle has said, I mean, there is ageism. It seems to be almost forgiven and okay, the ageism, because nobody, nobody that I know of has said anything about older men with younger women in the show. Never. Even this week. Never. In the way that they say things about women with younger men. the show, even this week, in the way that they say things about women with younger men. And he's not a child, by the way. But it's about attraction. Everybody's got their sort of limitations on what's right for them, what's wrong for them, what they would, they wouldn't do. And people can say some quite distasteful

things, but it challenges an area that people need to challenge. And I think Michelle as well has had that. Yeah, all of you to some extent. In the same way that I sort of name-shamed, you know, the Eve and the Suki characters together and how important Suki is for me personally. Yes. Your character, to have you at the centre of this storyline, it's not just about a woman in her 50s, it's a black woman in her 50s.

Thank you for saying that. And it's really important. It is really, really important. I've been there a long time and it hasn't happened in this way before. I think in terms of being seen, I started out doing Shakespeare, I started out doing theatre.

Nobody asked me whether I was black or not black or whether I should be or shouldn't be in that role. I played, my first ever job was playing Ariel in The Tempest, so it shouldn't be questioned in a place like this. We're in the East End but that's what I've loved about Chris. He has just given me stories not thought with a colour pen first, he's just gone in there and done it. Diane Parrish talking there about Chris Clenshaw, the executive producer of EastEnders. You also heard from the actors Kelly Bright,

Heather Pease and Michelle Collins. If you missed the Woman's Hour special on EastEnders, you can listen back on BBC Sounds. And of course you can watch EastEnders live special to mark the 40th anniversary on BBC One on Thursday at 7.30pm. Still to come on the programme, poetry from Caitlin O'Ryan. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds.

Now the birth of a grandchild is a cause for celebration, but just like with your own children, they don't come with a manual. Well the psychologist Terry Apter has a few tips that might help. Her new book, Grandparenting on Love and Relationships Across Generations, hopes to help anyone looking to become the best grandparent they can be. Using research and her own experiences she explores the bonds that bring families closer and the problems that can keep them apart. It's an expert's guide to being a modern grandparent. I think that one of the issues in becoming a grandparent is that your relationship with all members of the family change. And that means that you have to find new ways.

You know, you think you already know how to interact with your adult child, but becoming a parent, you know, your life is transformed. And in some cases, you know, change you so much that you don't know where you are or what you're doing and how you're going to go through these next steps and how you're going to develop this commitment. Even when it isn't that extreme you're facing huge changes in your life and anxiety, so much pressure on being the best parent you

can be. So on the one hand, a grandmother stepping in here may say, you know, this is wonderful, I can help you. But if you think of it from the new parent's point of view, they're working very, very hard to understand what this baby needs from them. People talk about baby brain, which is often thought of as being less clever, you know, you forget this, you omit this, you do this over and over

again, forgetting that you've done it, but I think baby brain is really a matter of becoming much more intelligent about your baby, what it is you need, what they're communicating. Now the grandparent steps in offering reassurance, I want to help, also offering a reminder of how in becoming a mother, the family bonds are strengthened across generations. But if a grandmother, and she often does,

presumes that she has greater parental experience, this can annoy a new mother for many reasons. You know, it's a distraction from that intense focus that you have on your baby. Also, some of the wisdom that comes from old age can actually now be old-fashioned. So that the new mother has different views about what it is the baby needs, how the baby should sleep and how the baby should eat. You've got two daughters. I have two daughters.

Four grandchildren. So what surprised you the most when you became a grandparent? Okay, so when I initially became a grandparent, I didn't feel that grandma swoon which a lot of grandmothers do they talk about it falling in love immediately you know this is a new kind of love with its own very special mix of brain chemicals. I was more focused on protecting my daughter from the kind of claustrophobia and confusion and isolation that I felt as a young parent. So I wanted to step in and give her some kind of reprieve. But I then immediately saw that sometimes my presence was not giving her what I

wanted to give her, that there could be more criticism than gratitude for my good to give her that there could be more criticism than gratitude for my good motives. But what I then discovered was the kind of mind changing and mind boosting engagement with grandchild. So you know children's brains are wired for learning. Really brilliant experimental scientists exploring the world and even though grandparents today tend to be very mentally active, physically active, much more so than their grandparents were at the same age, nonetheless as grown-ups they're looking at the world in a different way and grandchildren sort

of with their games, with their imagination can give that brain an extra boost to looking at the world in a different way and more, it's intimate imagination and it's wonderful. Lots of our listeners are getting in touch with their stories. So I'm going to read a couple out. One here says, I am 64 and have two adorable grandsons, one from my son and one from my daughter. I'm very much a part of their life as my beloved mom was to my three children. I work for myself, so I've allowed time

to be actively involved in helping with the care. But I have to say that trying to juggle everything, including my own work, running my home, being super nanny and all other roles, I suddenly realized I'm absolutely knackered. This, think it's time to just slightly readjust and set some goals for not burning out as I think that could be happening. I adore my babies and their babies but I've never worked so hard. Absolutely. So one of the surprising things about becoming a grandparent is

that you can be thrown back to all those difficult choices that you made when you were juggling your young family and a career. You think they're behind you, but as a matter of fact, if you're committed to a career, if you've put a lot into your professional development, you can be very protective of your child, seeing her as a mother and you think, you know, in order to, as it were, protect my feminist legacy, I've got to take on those caring roles.

So you're still doing it. Yes. You're still doing it. You're doing it for the next generation. Yes, and then you have to ask again those difficult questions. What am I capable of? What's being selfish? How can I be fair to others and give a lot to others without depriving myself of what it is I need, either still for my own career because a lot of grandmothers

are still working, but also for myself for what I want to do. You've broken the grandmother into three types, feminist, radical and subversive. Tell us a bit about the differences between those three grandparents and the roles they inhabit. Well, the feminist one is a real paradox because these are the women who, as parents, shied away from taking on or from other people assuming they should take on traditional caring roles. But when they are grandparents, they see the big hit that being a parent of young children can still inflict on young parents' careers. And so they say, well, I'm going to step up and I'm going to ease the burden

so that they can devote themselves to their careers. Whatever hit it might make to my career now is not going to be as severe as it would be for my daughter. For yes. So radical, I think are women who did take on very traditional female roles throughout their lives. And thinking about what do I really want, who do I really want to become, that's radical for them. And they tend to do it mainly in midlife when you're also likely to become a grandparent. You know,

so becoming a grandmother then for them raises questions, how much do I want to give? Yes, I love these kids. And yes, I want to help out. What about me? Yes. And subversive. Subversive parents are wonderful for grandchildren, a kind of mixed bag for parents, because they're

the ones who want to say, I want to, my role as a grandparent is to induct my grandchildren into things other people won't tell them. You know, I'm going to tell them the real story about life, what life is really like, and what they really need to know. And this might be stuff that other people suppress. And so they might say, it's very important for me to teach a child to lie so they'll be able to get by in ordinary life. Very important to say to my child you should be selfish sometimes.

You know, so as I say, they're a great delight for grandchildren but not so much for the parents. Yeah, and handing over a cheeky chocolate biscuit when the child is not allowed any sugar. What kind of grandmother are you? Oh my goodness. What category do you fit into? So I'm definitely a feminist grandmother. I thought so. Yes, but I have great sympathy for the others because I'd love to tell my grandchildren,

no one will tell you this but me. Terry Apter talking to me on Friday's programme. Now this year marks the 30th anniversary of the Women's Prize for Fiction. It was co-founded by the bestselling author Kate Moss to recognise the literary achievements of female writers. The prize has been awarded to big hitters like Zadie Smith, Andrea Levy and Maggie O'Farrell to name just a few. Well last year the Women's Prize awarded its inaugural non-fiction category to Naomi Klein for Doppelganger. This year's long list for the 2025 Non-Fiction Prize has just been released.

But according to new research by the Women's Prize, although the situation for female fiction writers has improved significantly in the past 30 years, non-fiction isn't faring quite so well. Only 34% of the top 500 non-fiction books in 2022 were written by women. Well, Nuala spoke to Kavita Puri, this year's chair of the non-fiction prize, but began by asking Kate Moss about those figures. I think there is still the idea of an expert being a man, actually. So to put it plainly, so the idea that with nonfiction books, and boy do we need proper research, wonderful books of nonfiction at the moment. We're living in times of unparalleled misinformation.

And so that is very important. It's where the truth lies in so far as we can find it. But what you discover is that even though we know there are women in science, in physics, in natural geography, in biology, in every single area, there is still the idea that when you need an expert, a male voice is what is required, or rather is often presented as a neutral voice. When women are asked, they are often asked to talk about menopause or biography or child care, and the bestseller lists reflect that,

that the books that do well are often those categories. So what we know is we don't know exactly the balance of books written in nonfiction by women and books written by men, because that research has not been done by anybody, not even us. But what we do know is that men read books mostly by men and women read books by men and women,

which means almost all the stats that we've shared with you. So only a third of non-fiction reviews in national newspapers are by female writers for non-fiction. Only a third of the best books in 2024, only a third of the top 500 non-fiction books. That's where you see that disparity. And publishing is a business. So if publishers feel that the books by women

are not gonna get reviewed, and therefore they are less likely to find an audience, then they are less likely to commission them in the first place. One of the reasons we set up the Women's Prize for Non-Fiction was to change all of that as well. Not just to shine a light on the incredible books that were being published and were there, and there are so many of them, this long list shows

us that, but actually to say come on publishers, there are some incredible women writing in these fields out there, go and find them, commission them and then let the reader decide. So that's always been our job. This is about celebrating, amplifying and honoring exceptional achievements in nonfiction by women and this list just proves the books are there. And we will get to the list in just a moment but I want to come to you, Kavita, because you've written nonfiction. Did you ever think about or question that word being the expert or the authority on something? No, I didn't but But I think that that's because

I was writing about an area. I wrote a book about the lived experience of people who lived through partition and nobody had done that. And so perhaps I was the expert in that little tiny field. Well, you were. But I myself didn't question that. But I don't think it's about us questioning ourselves as women as experts It's how other people perceive that and I think authority really matters and that I have to say is a Unifying theme the 16 books that we have chosen because who are we saying are our experts were our thought leaders? and surely part of the public and social discourse has to be women. We

have so many, you know, so much expertise in so many areas and are we saying that we shouldn't be equal partners debating and discussing these ideas? So, you know, this isn't a nice to have, it is absolutely essential to the quality of discourse. It's important in society. Shall we hear a little Kavita of who's on the list? Is there something, do you see a thread or is there anything that kind of unites some of the books that you're seeing on the long list? Well, 16 books is a lot and they are really different and the genres are really wide and you know, we have been talking about women in authority and boy are there so many on this list. We've got geopolitics, we've got medicine, we've got science, we've got the natural world. But I think that there is probably two overarching themes when I look at this list.

And one are books that talk to the really kind of pressing issues of our day, whether it's power or unchecked power, whether it's injustice, whether it's human connection and that could be with each other or the natural world, or it's how we deal with like the biggest issue, one of the biggest issue of our time, which is climate change. But there's also, I think, a look at raising the spotlight on overlooked histories, perspectives, and experiences as well, and whether that is... There are two books here looking at indigenous histories, whether it's experience of the care system, or whether it's the lives of ordinary Chinese women which we rarely hear about. So I think those two strands telling us about

something in our world today but also shining a light on stories where a light needs to be shone on. You have read all these books and been busy. Do you think women write non-fiction differently to men? I don't think we can say women write differently or men write differently. But I do think there is something about how we categorize the writing. You know, you could call something memoir, but you could also call it nature or you could call it smart thinking. And so maybe that's something we can think about and how we categorize and therefore promote this kind of writing.

And let me throw that back to Kate again because it is quite stark when you look at, I suppose really how well women's fiction has been doing, probably in no small part to the Women's Prize as well, highlighting issues of it. I mean, what are you hoping to do, starting from that baseline that I was mentioning at the beginning when it comes to women nonfiction writers, just making up 34% of the top 500 bestsellers? What do you do on a day-to-day basis?

On a day-to-day basis, when you buy and borrow the books that you hear about, you do what we do which is promote a long list of 16 and then the short list of six and then a winner, but we promote all of the books to as wide a readership as possible. So someone who has never thought that they want to read a book about one particular subject because they've read another book on the list, they find that if they're in a family of books, if you like, so they try other things. So that is about broadening reading. It is also that within nonfiction, you know, I write fiction and nonfiction was a publisher of both, that the categories were traditional and quite old

fashioned. Whereas we know because of the nature of women's history, because of the way that history has been written, that quite often women's stories were left out. They were not necessarily evidence wasn't in the archives, all of these kinds of things, which means that quite often when women are writing, they have to go a rather more meandering route than they would do from a straightforward book

that fits in one genre. So the idea of expanding people's perception of what a book is, you know, you don't have to say it can only be a memoir, it can be a memoir about environment. The final thing is really where I started, which is, you know, I was partly triggered to say to the Board of Women's Prize for Fiction, who is brilliant, you know, we've got to do this now, we've got to set up this prize, because there was a moment a couple of summers ago when we had the prospect of two people being the unelected Prime Minister of the country, Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss.

And so one woman, one man, and a list was put in the newspapers by a reputable newspaper with a reading list for the new incumbent of number 10. And there were 10 books on each list, and they were all by men. And so it comes back to that idea of, let's say there is a market for exceptional writing, nonfiction writing by women. Readers want to hear about it. Men, women, everybody, they want the best.

They want the person who knows. If you need your drain fixed, you get a plumber. You don't go and get someone who might have once, you know, seen a tap. And this is precisely the same thing with books in non-fiction is if we want to read about Kodik, we want to read about China, if we want to read about tyranny, let's go to somebody who has done the work into that. And women are doing that too. So it's never been about the women's prizes, it's never been about taking brilliant books by men out of the library, it's been about expanding the library. These are books for everyone, there's something on it for everyone. I have to say, even just coming into your office now,

there's a book about a Polish resistance female fighter, a woman who was in the war, and one of your production staff said, oh my goodness, my father was in the war and one of your production staff said oh my goodness my father was in the Polish resistance too I must read that book and so it's so it's happening and I think that you know we are the younger sister of the Women's Prize we're two years old but look how the Women's Prize for fiction has totally changed the landscape for fiction and I honestly believe that that will happen with a non-fiction prize as well in terms of you know I hope that more books will be

submitted on on areas that are currently underrepresented more more broadly like economics and philosophy and current affairs and and that that this will be a prize that that female writers all around the world will want to win and submit for. Kavita Puri and Kate Moss talking to Nuala, and next month on Woman's Hour we'll be talking to long-listed fiction and non-fiction authors as well as some past winners. Now, Caitlin O'Ryan started acting when she was only 22, but two years ago she decided to take a leap and try something new. Spoken word poetry. A video of her performing one of her poems went viral and she came into the Woman's Hour studio and performed part of that poem for us. It's called At What Point. At what point do you tell a girl a park's not just for play. At night time stay away, there's danger lurking all around.

And round about dusk the rustles in the bushes might be home to something much more menacing than bushy-tailed creatures who are out to steal your crisps. The risks of a shortcut. I bet your taxis are kept afloat out of women's pockets, make their profits as the cons of walking home alone far outweighs the pros. And does she know that she'll pay for a taxi to avoid getting murdered by a stranger, then spend the entire journey aware of the danger that this might be the stranger who will finally murder her? If I had a pound for all the pounds lost due to the cost of having to consider getting

home without a costman, I still wouldn't earn the same as men. But then again, the system's rigged to constantly remind us our beauty is behind us and so we must invest in lotions and potions, the extent of the ocean, to maintain a sense of relevance. I'm relatively sure if I'd have saved all the money that promised flatter tummies or younger skin or looking thin or better hair or buying uncomfortable underwear for him, for him, for him, well I'd be halfway to a mortgage. But more than that, I'd have a sense of power back. Sometimes I wonder who I'd be if I existed just for me, if my entire existence hadn't

consisted of persistently viewing myself through a male's gaze, if the haze lifted and I could wear whatever I want without consequence and yet, I'm well aware of the hypocrisy of getting older. I'm well aware that not too far from now their looks I once despised I'll begin to crave, it's exposing in their light but so much colder in their shade. Do you know how it feels to hover above yourself, hyper aware, the left foot in the present, the right not really there because it's running away with itself, preparing itself for what could possibly go wrong because it has gone wrong. I'm tired of constant vigilance. I'm tired of constant vigils. They seem to be rising without uprising and yet we act surprised every time another woman gets killed. Don't be too nice, it'll get you killed. Don't be so rude, it'll get you killed. Socialised into a politeness that still gets us

killed. They rap bitch at us and then within the same breath they complain they're not getting enough respect and it's reflected in real life. It's reflected in banter with the guys. It's reflected in the wage gap, the thigh gap, the orgasm gap, the fact that victims are rarely believed, the fact that justice is barely achieved. The fact that it costs us so much more to just be. So, tell me. Because I want to hear what you have to say for it. At what point do you tell your girl her life is only worth what she is able to pay for it?

That is Caitlin O'Ryne. At what point? That is Caitlin O'Ryne. At what point? It is so powerful and so many people have shared it, obviously. When did you write it? What was it behind it for you? I actually wrote it like over a year ago. And to be honest, I think it was in light of Sarah Everard's murder. And I'd just moved house and I remember sitting in my bedroom and being so aware of it because I used to live just around the corner from where she was taken from. And I was sat in my room and I was looking out and there was a park opposite and I was just thinking, gosh, like, at what point as women are we told to be so scared? And it just kind of like flew out of me really once I started writing it I think you know I consume so much media about it anyway because it's something that I'm passionate about and

I think I found it very cathartic writing it and It's just been amazing that it's resonated with so many people. What have people said to you? Be it's yeah, it's been quite overwhelming actually like it's been overwhelmingly positive when when it was shared online and it started blowing up, I was very aware that it might fall into the kind of men's sphere where it would get quite a lot of criticism. But it's been overwhelmingly positive and actually the comments in it have just been people sharing their experience, a lot of women sharing their experience and I think feeling grateful that their experience has been put into words. You know it was overwhelming at first because I felt almost this duty to read everything that people were sharing because you know I wrote it for myself in my bedroom and as soon as you start performing something, you know the first time you

perform it is very nerve-racking but the more you share it the less it kind of feels like it's yours anymore and it's just kind of out in the but the more you share it, the less it kind of feels like it's yours anymore, and it's just kind of out in the ether. But I think what happened when it went viral and then suddenly receiving all of these messages, it really brought home to me my own feelings about why I wrote it and my own frustrations and anger and sadness that this is what we have to experience.

But there's catharsis in sharing, and I think knowing that so many women feel it whilst terribly upsetting is also very validating you know. I think I was struck really from your first line when you talked about like what point do you share it with a young girl? Yeah yeah I think that was I was genuinely asking myself that it just feels like it's something that I have forever been aware of. Yes. And I can't remember.

Well, that's what I think I started thinking of as well. Like, when does the message come to you, or how does it come to you, or... But somehow it's internalized among many. Yeah, completely. Because I don't remember being sat down by my parents and having had that conversation, but I think just the way that we're socialized as women is just constantly drip-fed into our psyche, that we're not safe, and that we are hyper vigilant constantly. And that's you know, that's why I wrote the bit about sometimes I wonder who I'd be if I existed just for me, because I actually don't know who I'd be if I wasn't hyper vigilant all the time, if I wasn't constantly aware that something might happen.

And I just think that's so sad that there's a freedom that many women aren't allowed to experience. I always wonder as well what with spoken word, because you're kind of brought to this word and then that word, are you thinking in advance exactly what words you're going to emphasise? Well, I guess there's a rhythm to it. Yeah. So that's why I find it so satisfying. I always say, like, my favourite thing, the reason that I write poetry is because it takes these huge emotions that can feel quite overwhelming and then there's something very satisfying about kind of

Wrangling it and bringing it down to you, you know, two concise lines that sometimes rhyme and sometimes don't because they don't have to but there is a satisfying element to that which I think means that I have to take time with my feelings to make sure that I have been precise in the way that I'm saying them and I just find that a really enjoyable experience. Because it's precise and measured even though the message, the emotions, the feelings are so huge, maybe rage-filled, maybe I agree. Well this is something that I'm super conscious of because you know I think women have a right to feel rage and to feel angry and

I honestly think that a lot of women's people-pleasing aspects come from not being given space to feel those things but the the negative side of that is that it can alienate men and actually what we want to do is bring men in so in my writing and specifically my performances as well I'm always really conscious that whilst my writing might be provocative and it might be uncomfortable to listen to, I never want to be on a soapbox so to speak and to be shouting it into an audience because I just think ultimately that would turn people off from listening. I always want to feel like I'm inviting people in and

you know we're all victims of this thing we call the patriarchy, you know, men as well and I just think the way that we're going to overcome many of the things that I talk about in this is working together and bringing men in to that space as well. Caitlin O'Ryan speaking to Nula. That's it from me. On Monday Nula will be talking to the writer Laura Horton about her new play, about a woman who forms a punk band inspired by Alan Partridge's PA, Lynn. Sounds genius to me. So join Nuala on Monday and enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm Nicola Cochlan and for BBC Radio 4, this is history's youngest heroes. Rebellion, risk,

and the radical power of youth. She thought, right, I'll just do it. She thought about others rather than herself. 12 stories of extraordinary young people from across history. There's a real sense of urgency in them that resistance has to be mounted, it has to be mounted now.

Subscribe to history's youngest Heroes on BBC Sounds. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.