Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Ecofeminist Vandana Shiva, how to quit well, Shekeila Scarlett

Episode Date: January 7, 2023

The author and environmental activist Vandana Shiva has released a new book, Terra Viva to coincide with her 70th birthday. She discusses her life campaigning for climate justice and equality, as well as what she thinks of the current climate situation.According to reports in the Telegraph this week, Rishi Sunak has shelved plans to reform childcare services put forward by his predecessor, Liz Truss. The plans were looking at increasing free childcare support and changing the staff-child ratio. What will this mean for parents who need childcare and for those working in the industry? We hear the CEO of the Early Years Alliance Neil Leitch and the Deputy Director of UK Onward, Adam Hawksbee.New year, new job? If you’re thinking of leaving a job we discuss the art of quitting well. Sometimes leaving is the right thing to do, but how do you do that without destroying everything you’ve worked hard for? We hear from Mandy Dennison Director of Engagement from the International Federation of Coaching UK, and Karen Danker from Women Returners, which helps women returning to the work place after an extended break.In our series Finding My Voice we’re talking to women about the moment they realised they had something to say or stand up for. Shekeila Scarlett was excluded from school when she was 12 years old. Although she was reinstated at the school just 2 months later, the experience made her realised how distant young pupils were from the governors who made decisions about their school. At 26, she’s now the Chair of Governors at Stoke Newington High School in Hackney, making her one of the youngest chairs of a school governing board in the UK.This year in the UK children conceived by sperm, egg or embryo donation who turn 18 will be able to request information that identifies their donor. This includes the donor’s name, birth name, date of birth and address, as long as the information is on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority’s register. It’s a result of a change in the law in April 2005 meaning tha the first of those children conceived after the law changed will have their eighteenth birthdays this year. To discuss the implications for donors, children conceived by donor as well as their families are Clare Ettinghausen, Director of Strategy & Corporate Affairs at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, the UK’s Fertility Regulator. And Nina Barnsley Director of the Donor Conception Network which is a UK based charity supporting donor conception families. You might have spent this first week of January planning where you want to go, what you want to do and who you want to be in 2023, but have you made any financial new year’s resolutions? Statistics show that more than a third of us (35%) will make a financial new year’s resolution this year. We hear from the consumer editor of the Financial Times and presenter of the FT's Money Clinic podcast, Claer Barrett as well as the budget savvy mum, Gemma Bird also known as @MoneyMumOfficial on what we can all do when it comes to financial planning.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka NurmahomedPhoto credit: Kartikey Shiva

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Put the kettle on, grab the biscuits and settle in. Coming up on the programme today, as we begin another year and think about doing things differently, including possibly changing jobs, we ask if there's an art to quitting well without destroying everything you've worked so hard for and burning all your bridges. Also, all week we've been hearing from inspiring women about finding their voice.

Today we hear from Shakila Scarlett, who became the youngest chair of governors at the age of 26. It's just about understanding that, you know what, you are at this table for a reason. And if you want to make some change, you've got to sit at certain tables or certain spaces in order to make that change. You deserve to be here. You want to be the change you want to see in the world. So sit at this table and own it. We'll also discuss how a change in the law this year means that in the UK, children conceived by sperm, egg or embryo donation who turn 18 will be able to request information that identifies their donor. And we hear from a woman described as one of the world's most prominent radical scientists by The

Guardian. Eco-feminist Vandana Shiva tells us about the importance of chipko when it comes to protecting the environment. Chipko means to hug. Women understood the links between the forest and the water and their livelihoods. They also understood the impact of destruction. But most importantly, their imagination was so creative. They first organised together. Hundreds would sit in the forest to block the logging. And then they said, we will hug the trees. Chipko, they embraced.

There you go. Tree huggers, Indian. More from the wonderful Vandana Shiva later. But first, most of us got back to work at some point this week. And if you did and have young children, it would mean they may also be back to nursery. Well, we've covered regularly here on Woman's Hour the cost of childcare. And according to a recent report, 26% of parents' joint income in the UK goes towards childcare costs, roughly three times higher than the OECD average of 9%. So what's being done about it? Well, the former Prime Minister Liz

Truss has been looking at working on what was described as a big bang shake-up of the system during her brief time at Number 10. But reports in some newspapers this week claimed that Rishi Sunak has shelved these plans. With an estimated 1.7 million women in England prevented from doing more hours of work by childcare issues, it's likely to be a key issue in the lead up to the next general election. On Tuesday, Nuala spoke to Neil Leitch from the Early Years Alliance, which represents childcare providers in England, and Adam Hawksby, Deputy Director of the centre-right think tank Onward, who recently published a report on this topic, he described what the situation is like

for some parents now. The headline is that costs are enormously high, that they've gone up by about 21% in the last five years. And that means that the UK are massively out of step with other countries in terms of how much parents pay. But what our report looked into is why that's the case and what's happened. And some of that is about limited public subsidies. So the UK does pay less in terms of a share of GDP on childcare than other developed countries. But it's also how the system, the system of subsidy is failing. It's overly complex. You've got eight different forms of support over three different government departments. It's very inflexible in terms of sharing that between parents. And there are huge challenges in the workforce. Some of the organisations that Neil works with and represents are facing huge pressures. And that means many are closing or unable to hire the staff they need to. So it's

a very, very complex picture. And that's why I imagine the government might have stepped away from some of the trustee reforms, which had, to be honest, quite simplistic answers to some of those challenges. So what was she proposing? Because some people may not be aware of it. So there were three things that she was focusing on. The big headline one was around the scrapping of ratios between adults and children in childcare settings. That was going much further than some proposals to shift England's ratios more in line with Scotland. A proposal to expand the amount of hours that would be subsidised,

although, if I'm honest, little detail of how that might be paid for. And also the idea that parents would get cash instead of a voucher. I've got some reasons, both policy and politically, to be worried about that. But those were the headlines. The ratios was the big thing.

The very important thing to say is parents are very, very nervous about that reform. And we tested a range of policies. Scrapping childcare ratios was the only policy that had net negative support among parents. Flexibility, cost, the things they really care about. So let me throw that over to you Neil instead with those plans that were proposed by Liz Truss. How would your members feel about that? Well I think Adam summed it up absolutely brilliantly actually I have to say because ratios was without a doubt the most volatile most provocative proposal that was put forward. And it was interesting. The very day this was leaked from number 10,

that the proposal maybe moved forward, you had Her Majesty's Chief Inspector, Amanda Spielman of Ofsted, on the airwaves telling us that young children's development had stalled and they needed more time, more effort applied to them than ever before. At the same time, as again Adam alluded to, we have a workforce that's leaving in droves. We have a recruitment retention crisis that we've never witnessed before. And so there is no question, in fact, that that proposal would have been damning.

It's interesting as well that we did a survey almost immediately. We had 9,000 responses from our members. Only 2% said that they would consider passing anything across to parents. So the reality is this would not have saved parents a single penny. It would have damaged the sector and would have, if you like, added further burden onto the workforce that was already struggling. And it sounds like it's not going to happen. Just with the ratios, to spell it out for my listeners, what was the proposal?

It was for two-year-olds, basically. At the moment, you have one adult that can care for four two-year-olds. The proposal was to move it to five two-year-olds. And as I said to, dare I say, a minister a little while ago, have you ever tried to walk across the street with five two-year-olds? And he said, why would I want to do that? But that was not the point. The point is going for four two-year-olds

is a tough ask, never mind five. Well, Adam, let me turn back to you because there have been reports in The Telegraph picked up also by other outlets that Rishi Sunak is dropping these plans. The former cabinet minister, Simon Clarke, also Stroud MP, Siobhan Bailey, both Conservative

members of Parliament. They've suggested they are unimpressed with those reports that the plans have been shelved. How do you see this playing in Westminster

and also how the Prime Minister may come under pressure? So I think that the Prime Minister and the Education Department who have the primary responsibility for this policy area will be thinking about childcare very, very carefully. I'm confident that they will come out with some proposals around childcare and that the more in a future fiscal event in some sort of spring budget is the way to go.

Because as your introduction talked about, this is going to be a huge issue in the next election. It's really important for voters that are often swing voters that might be considering which party to vote for or young families primarily. And so I think the government will come forward with proposals. They just won't look a lot like the trustee or what. But there is always that question, isn't there? I know they talk about billions for reform of childcare within the country.

But women, which are primary caregivers in so many respects, they are not in the workforce. There must be a balance there when it comes to the economic outcome. It's not simply the money that's being not in the workforce. There must be a balance there when it comes to the economic outcome. It's not simply the money that's been put into the reforms. I think that's right. And the really important thing is there are two things here. One thing that gets a lot of focus is getting more people that want to work into work. And that is a

huge problem that we need less people that are economically inactive. We need more people in the workforce. But the other is the strain this puts on families and the real harm it does to the family unit. And actually the delay it puts on starting a family. So some of our polling, 51% of people said that they are going to have children later in life because of those really high costs. So there's both that big social impact in terms of families

and the economic impact you allude to. And that's why the government will be really considering whether there is more money they can invest on top of the £5.4 billion that is already invested now. But no concrete plans of what would replace what was previously proposed by mistrust? So I don't think we have got concrete plans from them yet, beyond them saying they're looking very carefully at some of the proposals that our think tank have put forward in our report that you alluded to,

and other very good reports. You know, lots of policy people are looking at it because they know this is a really important issue. We do have a statement from the Department of Education. This is a spokesperson that said, let me see, we continue to review all options

to improve the cost, choice and availability of high quality childcare for working parents, which remains a priority for this government. It goes on to say, we have spent more than £20 billion over the past five years

to support families with the cost of childcare in a number of places available in England, has remained stable since 2015, with thousands of parents benefiting from this support. You hear that, Neil, but what would your members

who are childcare providers say, do you think, in response to that and what actually needs to be done? I have to say it's a very very cheap statement to say how much you put in doesn't necessarily mean that you're putting enough money in what they fail to say within that statement is that back in December 2018 when we were tired frankly of hearing government trot out exactly the same lines about how much they'd invested. We said, if you think that you pay enough money into the sector for these so-called free entitlements, give us your figures. It took us two and a half years, battle after battle, before the information commissioner made them release that information. And what did it say? Their words, not mine. It said, to adequately fund the entitlements would require an additional £2 billion. That's not affordable. Now,

when you think that they're putting in £4 billion a year, and there's a shortfall of £2 billion, that's a pretty big shortfall. They also went on to say, we accept that parents who do not qualify for these entitlements, their prices will increase by 30%, by up to 30%. So it's incredibly disingenuous. And that's a light word, frankly, for the statement that they've issued. They know they are shortchanging the public. They know the public have to make up the difference. And then they're pretending that they're putting enough money in. Well, the shadow education secretary, that's Bridget Philipson, was tweeting last week and said the Tories have pushed the childcare system to breaking point with parents forced to give up work or pay higher prices. We need a new modern childcare system that gives parents choices and

grows our economy. She also said that childcare has to be part of the country's economic strategy. Do you think this is likely to be a key battle of the next general election? It has to be, frankly. I mean, the reality is that, show them the policies. I have to say, it's a massive relief because these were idiotic policies that came forward from trusts. But the reality is this sector needs investment and it needs basically focus but it isn't just about and i have to say this it isn't just about getting parents back into work this is about young children's development their education this is about creating good citizens for the future kind people we would invest in this we wouldn't be having this debate if we were talking

about five-year-old children that walk through the school gate, that education starts at birth, not at the age of five? So this will be a big issue in the next election. And both parties are going to want to work on very carefully what their offer is going to be. And I think it will be front and centre of their offer. And that's particularly important for the Conservative Party. A lot of information over the past couple of weeks about them losing millennial voters in droves, those people that might be in their late 20s, 30s, who are thinking about starting a family. They're the people who the government needs to persuade they've got a real offer to support.

That's about childcare, it's about housing, it's about economic opportunity. So yes, we'll be hearing more about this issue. That was Nuala speaking to Adam Hawksby and Neil Leach. Now, new year, new job. Is there an art, though, to quitting well? Sometimes leaving is just the right thing to do. But how do you do that without destroying everything you've worked so hard for? It's risky, too, especially right now when cost of living is higher than ever.

Well, I spoke to someone who, in her own words, didn't leave in the best circumstances, but has now turned her life around and helps others to think through the process. Her name is Mandy Dennison, and she's Director of Engagement from the International Federation of Coaching UK, and also Karen Danker, who's from Women Returners, which helps women returning to the workplace after an extended break. Mandy took me back to the moment she quit her job teaching. I went in in the morning. I had a meeting with some of the other senior leaders. I would say morally there was a bit of a disagreement and it was like, well, what do we do? And I said, well, I know what I'm going to do. I quit. And they said, well, if you're leaving, you leave now. So I picked up my bag and walked out the door and that was it.

And then what happens when you sit in the car do you cheer do you scream like just what's the next emotion okay well I sat in the car and I thought oh my goodness me what have I just done and so I actually rang my boys who were both uh one had just started uni one was um in the later ages of sixth form and they were like well you've not been happy for ages so yeah get on with it so I was like oh right I better get on with it then so as I drove home I was thinking well what what am I going to do and that's that's the time that you think actually there's there's quite a lot that I could do there's a lot that I want to do and maybe this was actually the kick up the backside that I needed to go and do it and it it was, wasn't it? Because it was a life changing experience. You're doing something completely different now. Totally. I mean, I'd used coaching a lot in my teaching career,

supporting younger colleagues and colleagues moving into sort of junior management roles and so on. And I'd used it with sixth formers and so on. So I'd used coaching a lot. And I love people. Laterally, I'd spent a lot of time looking at data and spreadsheets. So I'd used coaching a lot. And I love people. Laterally, I'd spent a lot of time looking at data and spreadsheets. And I thought, no, it's actually people that I like, you know, an Excel spreadsheet can be a beautiful thing, but it's not the same as talking to a person. So I thought I can really do something with this. And so coaching seemed the obvious answer. So I went and got some more formal coaching qualifications, set up a business and never looked back really. I'm going to bring Karen in here because Karen, there may be people who are

listening to this and maybe they're inspired by Mandy's story and think, right, tomorrow, this is it. My life is changing. Maybe they could have some practical advice about what they might need to do, steps that you could take if you do want to begin that conversation with your manager or your boss about leaving. And a very human story, I think, for Mandy, and one I think which will resonate with lots of us. So I think practically where you can, if you can try to take the emotion out of the situation.

So when something happens at work and you feel highly charged to try and get some space from that, go out for a walk, grab a colleague with you, download and process what's just happened so that you don't react in the moment and create that distance to think through what you might want to do. How do you not react in the moment? Yeah, I think it's about sort of calming yourself down and trying to say, right, I need some space and actually voicing what's going on in your head. I mean, I think it's very normal, very natural for us to feel upset in the moment. But to kind of realise actually what might feel good to say right now might not serve us more half an hour down the line or in the longer run so just just sort of say I need to get a break I need to get some space I'll come back to you

and to create that space to think about actually what does this mean for me what could I do is there an opportunity to try and come back and talk about it when I've had some chance you know some time to think about a different way how we could resolve this together but i think you know if you can get that time to talk about it great if you still get to the same conclusion that actually this is just not the right place for me it's not a good values match then leaving well is really key and to try and you know have a a good considered conversation with your line manager at a time when you've had that time to think and reflect and to try and, you know, have a good considered conversation with your line manager at a time when you've had that time to think and reflect and to try and leave in the best way. So, you know, give the required notice, finish strong, you know, really do a good handover, succession notes,

take the time to thank people. And I think the key thing is not to burn bridges, because you never know when you're going to come across current colleagues again in a future role, when you're going to need a recommendation or a reference. So I think it's that piece around. Yeah, this has been a really tough situation. What can I learn from that? This is all very good advice. But what if there is you just don't get on with your boss? What if the relationship is quite toxic or you feel that you've been bullied or you've been treated badly? How do you manage that well?

And this is for both of you. Yeah, look, I think the key thing is to seek support. Don't try and manage this on your own. So try to get support from somebody independent within the organisation, whether it's from HR, whether it's, you know, if you're working in the environment where there's a trade union representative or if you have a professional association, seek support, seek advice.

There's lots of brilliant organisations out there that can provide support for different issues, whether it's distance advice, ACAS, National Bullying Helpline. If it's around maternity rights, places like Pregnant and Screwed and Maternity Action, There's lots of great organisations out there that have helplines that can give you really good advice to navigate that. And I think, you know, recognise that this is going to take a toll on you. So also get support personally from friends and family, from your GP if you need it, if you feel like it's having an effect on your mental and physical health, get that support to really help you navigate that, I think, is my most important you know step to take yeah mandy i think it's interesting

that you got in the car and the first thing you did was phone your sons because they are your support so you had your your team back up to cheer you on and say don't worry about it but if you had done things differently what would you have done i think with hindsight i might have taken a bit of time off just to think about it. But actually, so much had led up to that point. I'd done a lot of thinking and reflecting and talking things through. So I actually think I possibly wouldn't have done anything terribly different. I think for me, that was a key thing. Sometimes financially, it's not great, but you recover, life goes on. and I think it's an

awful lot of things is about looking at the positives we talk a lot these days about gratitude I call it looking for the positives there's always something good that comes out of what you're doing so you just have to keep looking forwards don't look backwards not too much sometimes yes you need to reflect and think about what you've done. But it's then about looking forwards, recognising this is the place that I am in. This is where I'm at. So now what happens next? If we spend too much time looking backwards, then we kind of get stuck. And as a coach, one of the things that we do is help people to get unstuck. And so a lot of that is about looking forwards, thinking, well, what are my values? What's important to me? What are my beliefs? I think it's a good thing to work

through what are the different perspectives that a situation has, because we only see the world as we are. We don't see the world as it actually is. You mentioned there about, you know, not maybe this isn't the right time financially. Well, with the downturn in the economy, rising food costs and energy bills, it's not necessarily the best time to leave a job, is it, Karen? What would you say to anyone who feels they need to leave but can't afford to? Yeah, I think it's a very real situation that lots of people will be in. I think, first of all, I would say reflect on why you want to leave your job first. You first you know if it's about the role then perhaps could there be a different role that you could do in the organization can you speak to your line manager but manager or other people in there about

different things you could do that would actually make your day-to-day better if you've explored those opportunities and there isn't then i would say stay in your role keep earning money but also at the same time plan your exit strategy at the same time. So think about what is it that you do want to do? What is it that you enjoy? And start to explore that, start to speak to people, use your network, think about any upskilling that you need to do that you could be doing free courses in the weekends or in the evenings. Think about building that experience so that you can make more of a transition into your next role and you won't have that gap. That was Karen Danker and Mandy Dennison giving us advice on how to quit well if you are thinking about leaving your job. Chris got in

touch to say it's not all about money. I took early retirement, which meant a big drop in income and a reduced pension, but no more dry cleaning bills huge petrol costs dashes into supermarkets buying expensive options paying people to do things i didn't have time to do instead cooking doing it myself growing veg and i am sure this is true when you still have kids at home too and if you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the program we would love to hear your thoughts just drop us an email by going to our website. Now, all this week, we've been hearing from women for our Find My Voice series.

This is where we talk to women about the moment they realised they had something to say. Shakila Scarlett was excluded from school when she was just 12 years old. After an appeal process that eventually reversed the decision, she was reinstated at the school. But seeing her case debated by a board of governors made her realise the importance of having young people involved in school governance.

At just 26, she's now the chair of governors at Stoke Newington School in Hackney, making her one of the youngest chairs of a school governing board in the UK. She took Nuala back to the time when she was excluded from school. It was an interesting time. So I was excluded for a situation where my bully, a school bully, had threatened me to do something and I did it, bearing in mind the school was aware that I was being bullied. And as a result of that, my name came up and then I was involved in sort of a permanent exclusion.

And that time was quite dark. It was very dark. I'm 12 years old not really understanding that the education system still quite fresh and being excluded sort of then referred to a pupil referral unit which I would have only been the only girl so thank god my mum didn't um put me there but in trying to sort of navigate that system um it was difficult very very difficult um I come from a working class background I grew up in Hackney so the strengths of the education system weren't around us my mum had to go and find people who could um actually support us she got me an

advocate so someone that could actually advocate on our behalf. And that was really helpful, actually, in the process of getting back into school. And I guess the whole appeal process, it was difficult. I was out of school for two months and the process meant that I had to sort of go and appeal my case to the school governors at the time. I have to stop you for a second there, because just even saying that, Shaquille, I'm thinking of this little 12-year-old girl opposite, is it a table of governors? I don't know, you tell me. It's kind of like a semicircle round table type thing.

And I'm sort of pleading with them, please allow me back into school, because I was, you know, excluded for something that I couldn't help but do, because, you know, my school bully was bullying me. And if prior experience had shown me anything, it was like, if I don't do it, he's going to hurt me. And it was quite interesting to see how that all played out, because actually further down the line, I was made aware that, you know, I was excluded to be

made an example of, not actually because, you know, I actually did anything actively wrong myself. And you're opposite this board of governors. The appeal did work and you got in, but you decided at some point to try and perhaps change what that board of governors looked like for the kid opposite that semicircle table. Tell me about that. How did you get involved? I mean, I'm just thinking you might at 12 or 13 be forgiven if you wanted nothing to do with a board

of governors again. I think for me, so it was the whole appeal process and knowing that the governors that were sitting opposite me didn't look like me. They didn't come from the background I came from. There was no relatableness and actually that was the sort of catalyst for saying actually I want to change something in this world um and I want to be that change so at what age were you then I got back into school when I was 12 so but I think the first time I recognized it was when I was 13 and actually started getting involved in different programs because actually once I was reinstated in school, I got involved with an organisation called Immediate Theatre,

which I am now actually chair of trustees for. So it's a full circle moment, actually. And they sort of helped bring up, because I lost a lot of confidence being out of education for so long, because the times and the trends changed so quickly. And being a part of immediate fit allowed me to grow my confidence and actually have some form of personality and drive and passion and actually that's something we do with young people now they do social action and my

social action essentially was to you know make sure that there isn't going to be another student like me who sat in front of a governing body that didn't reflect them. So you have these young people you were helping them begin working as governors in schools you become a chair of governors at the age of 26 what do you think a 12 year old Shakila would say to this chair now of school governors? I think it would be a case of, I can't believe you did it. Like, I can't believe you did it. I think that's one thing that I've been so proud to be able to do. Like, every time I've set my mind to do something,

I've always done it. As part of my journey to sort of get to this point, I was involved in Hackney Young Futures Commission with Hackney Council, as well as doing other projects and stuff. And actually, as part of that project with Hatton council I set up a young governing program in Hackney with Hackney education to get young governors on boards as associates and actually as part of that process I set it up I participated and then I was co-opted as a governor and then subsequently within the year I was made chair

and I'm so excited to be able to sort of be in that position where I can work with my head teacher and my governors to reduce exclusions, make sure that our students know who we are. That's really important as well to me, because actually in sort of one of the events I attended, we took some young people there and actually we had a student sitting next to her chair of governors and they she didn't know who she was and I think that's really ridiculous personally because actually governors are the sort of legal key holders for the school and actually um for students to not know who they are I think it's just it's silly and I've been so prominent and trying to you know be present and be visible within school over the first time last year. And actually, that's been so it's been so nice because actually people recognize me. And yeah, working with my head teacher has been incredible. as that person that you faced in the sense of you have a little kid, opposite you maybe, that faces the threat of being excluded?

I think for me it's the younger understanding. So the percentage of governors who are under the age of 30 is like less than 2%. And actually, I'm a lot closer to the education system experience than you know 75 percent of governors who sit on current governing bodies and actually having an understanding of what's going on in the world you know being in touch with the cool kids as someone would someone said it to me the other day but actually you know understanding what's going on in the world understanding what the education system is like and currently like and actually taking into account all of these things that

have been happening with um in the world like covid that has a major impact on um students and student behavior as well as just trying to understand that instead of sitting down and talking about and talk about we need to be solution focused in these sort of environments. We can't just talk and talk and talk and nothing gets done. Too often that's the case. Well, you obviously have done so much. You know, I was so interested to read that you feel, I don't know whether you still do anymore, but that you did suffer from imposter syndrome, which I think lots of people will identify with. And I find that difficult, of course, speaking to you as such a confident 26-year-old woman as you are. But I wonder, you know, as you find your voice, what you might say

to others who perhaps, you know, have that sense of imposter syndrome or that they're somewhere that they shouldn't be? I still do suffer sometimes. I think for me, it's just about understanding that, you know what, you are at this table for a reason. And, you know, if you want to make some change, you've got to sit in certain tables or certain spaces in order to make that change. And I think for me, every time I sort of get a bit worried, like, oh, my God, am I really doing this? I literally go back to that thought of you deserve to be here. You want to be the change you want to see in the world. So sit at this table and own it. And I think that's really my sort of mantra for this year going forward.

It's a good, positive mantra there from Shakila Scarlett. If only we'd all been so wise at 26. Still to come on the programme, the woman described as one of the world's most radical scientists, Vandana Shiva. And just a reminder, if you missed our bank holiday programme on the 2nd of January, which explores the idea of turning your passion into a business with guests,

including the formidable business guru and dragon, Deborah Meaden, then it's available to listen to on BBC Sounds. Now, this year in the UK, children conceived by sperm, egg or embryo donation who turn 18 will be able to request information that identifies their donor. This includes the donor's name, birth name, date of birth and address as long as the information is on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority's register. It's a result of a change in the law in April 2005 meaning that the first of those children conceived after the law changed

will have their 18th birthdays this year. To discuss the implications for children and their families are Nina Barnsley, Director of the Donor Conception Network, which is a UK-based charity supporting donor conception families, and Claire Ettinghausen, Director of Strategy and Corporate Affairs at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, the UK's fertility regulator. Claire started off by explaining why the law changed in 2005. There was a move at the

time that it was felt that those children born from donation had a right to access information about their genetic heritage. So that law was changed, as you say, in 2005. And anyone born from donation from a donor after April 2005 can apply later this year when they turn 18 to access that information so it's really felt that those children who are born from sperm or egg or embryo donation have a right to the information to find out about anything related to their genetic heritage and we're really looking forward to welcoming those applications later in the year with both excitement and trepidation. Excitement and trepidation. Let me throw that over to you, Nina. I mean, what are you expecting?

Because you're really working with the families that have gone through this process. Yeah, exactly. So our charity supports anyone who's thinking about using a donor or has used a donor. So we've already experienced families where they've connected with half siblings or children. I'm calling them children, they're adults who may have already connected with their donor through maybe another route. So not through the formal HFEA route, but through other routes like home DNA testing or sometimes just accidental disclosure. So we've already sort of seen the ramifications of that. And certainly over the last 30 years, DCN has, you know, we were founded on a principle of openness.

So the first thing probably to say is that this only really applies if children actually know that they are donor conceived. So there is another element to this to the story that can be quite challenging. And when do you advise people to share that information? Well, in an ideal world, we would recommend before a child reaches about six, so that and sort of the earlier the better, more for the parents so that they can get comfortable with this story they can find a vocabulary and a narrative and a family family story that's coherent and honest that works for them and that can take a bit of time to build that confidence but doing that when a child is very young means that the child's not going to ask any awkward questions so you build up a confidence before they maybe turn seven eight

nine and start saying uh well what what does this actually mean and may may ask a more slightly more challenging question but i should say that we also support people who have much older children um where you know they may have adult children who haven't been told and we have specific support services for that um or maybe teenagers that haven't been told. You know, we advise younger, but we're, you know, we're there for all families. I just want to actually pop in the statistics. Donor conception has led to more than 4,100 births, those figures from 2019. So accounting for one in 170 of all births and nearly one in six births using IVF in the UK, which I thought were interesting.

But coming back to you, Claire, then, I mean, if people, particularly children, go this route, I mean, what are they going to find out? Because, you know, finding one's identity or their background, genetic background, they might be expecting perhaps more than even will be provided by what might be released. Yeah, I should say that the total number of children born since 1991 is 70,000. So it's about 4,000 children born a year, but over 70,000 since 1991. So children who are turning 18 or becoming adults can apply later in the year for, as you said, the last name, date of birth and last known postal address of the donor. Now, the reason why I said

trepidation at the beginning is some of those donors will have moved. They may unfortunately have even passed away. They may or may not want anything to do with the donor conceived child contacting them. So we're expecting some quite difficult relationships over the next few months and years ahead as this becomes more commonplace. So some donors may be very aware that this is happening this year. They may remember that. They may have kept their contact details up to date with the clinic that they donated at and they may be looking forward to hearing from the donor conceived child. And donors themselves can apply to the HFEA for non-identifying information so they can find out the number, the sex and the year of birth of any children born from their donation. On the HFEA website, there's a lot of information both for donors, for donor conceived children, their families about how to apply for that information.

And obviously for us, the reason I said trepidation is we're very aware that this is immensely precious and very sensitive information. So when we give out the information, we will check and double check that information. The last thing we would want to give out is incorrect information. And we're very sensitive that these are really life changing times for people. The other thing that people may get and they can apply for that from the time they turn 16 is what we call pen portraits and goodwill messages so this is a message that a donor may have left for those using the donations of the parents or parent about why they're donating and it can be you know quite person sensitive they may know someone who's had trouble conceiving and they also may have left a message for any children born,

giving a bit of a description about themselves, their background, their own family and childhood, which really helps the donor-conceived child kind of paint a picture of the donor in their mind. You bring up a lot of things that I'm thinking about, Clare. And maybe I'll throw this back to you, Dina, as well, because there may be the children that want to know who the donor was, but then I suppose there may be the donors who want to know the children, the children may not be interested. Well, that's a very interesting comment. Because yeah, our sense is that a lot

of 18 year olds have more interesting things going on in their lives, really, than pursuing this information. So it's going to be, yeah, it'll be it'll be interesting to see how many what proportion come forward, literally literally as they turn 18. I think the curiosity may come a little bit later. And certainly when we talk to donor conceived adults, often it's other life events that make them start thinking about their own sort of genetic heritage or other connections. For example, if they have a child themselves. And yes, you're right. I think you were saying that, you know, it may be very disappointing for donors if they're all excited, thinking, I'm intrigued to find out what happened next. And actually, nobody applies for that

information. And similarly, I think if donor conceived people know that they have several half siblings, and may be very curious about those. And if those other half siblings don't come forward, I think the whole thing is going to be about managing expectations that we can't guarantee anything. We don't quite know how this is going to unfold and to make sure we've got sort of support services and connections that we can make to make sure that people have somewhere to go if things don't quite transpire as they would like. In a way, though, it is more structured and planned than perhaps what often does happen, I think, in the modern age with DNA testing, you know, home tests and all that. This, as you called it, accidental disclosure. How big an issue is that at the moment? Oh, that's a really big issue. I mean, so many people are intrigued by their DNA and want to find out about their ethnicity or find wider family connections. They perhaps don't even know their donor conceived or they don't know that their father or mother was a donor. So they put their DNA online and then suddenly something pops up that's completely unexpected and doesn't make sense of course that might not be donor conception it might be any other

um but there might be lots of other reasons why why that that uh that mismatch happens but uh but if it's donor conception then there's a whole sort of unraveling of who you know who knows who to tell how what to do with that information. And that isn't the ideal way to find out that either your parent was a donor or your parents used a donor to conceive you. And that's why our message around openness and building confidence in the family story is really key. And of course, there are so many different family setups

also in society in general, and also, of course, with donor conceived as well, whether it might be a single mum or a single dad or a gay couple or heterosexual couple. Is everybody going through the same thing? Not completely the same thing. So often for the same-sex couples, you know, there's a lot of excitement and positivity around the fact that they can have a child together. But I think there's still, you know, in an ideal world, if you're a gay couple, you probably think, well, I'd like to make a baby with my partner. You know, just that isn't how things work. But so there can still be an element of, OK, who is this person? Who is this donor that we're bringing into our family? And how are we going to integrate them into the family story in a positive way?

And what do they mean for us and our children? And so there are lots of very similar issues that come up for all of our families. We support all family types. But there are some subtle nuances in the different differences. That was Nina Barnsley and Claire Ettinghausen. And you got in touch, like this email, who says, I'm a lesbian parent, and my now ex-wife and I waited until the law changed in 2005 before we started trying to conceive using donor sperm, as it was really important to us that any future children

would have the option to find out more if they wanted to. Now, New Year, New You and New Year's resolutions. You might have spent this first week of January planning where you want to go, what you want to do and who you want to be in 2023. But have you made any financial New Year's resolutions? Statistics show that more than a third of us, 35%, will make a financial New Year's resolution this year. Will you be manifesting money in the year ahead?

Well, on Friday, I spoke to the consumer editor of the Financial Times and presenter of the FT's Money Clinic podcast, Claire Barrett, who's also on our Woman's Hour Cost of Living panel, and also to the budget-savvy mum, Gemma Bird, also known as at Money Mum Official on social media. I began by asking them the main financial struggles affecting everyone. This is affecting people of all income levels and basically the solutions that we've got are cut back more.

Lots of people haven't got anything more to cut back. Radar savings, lots of people don't have savings. Millions of people, according to the financial regulator, or take on more debt. And I think that's going to be one of the biggest problems that we're going to see in the year ahead as households become more and more indebted. We can already see from the Bank of England's data that credit card spending is shooting up,

and a lot of that is spending on essentials rather than nice-to-haves. Now, another area that I know a lot of women are cutting back on is paying into their pension. Now, if we can't get our incomes to rise, if we can't get the pay rise we want, cutting back what we pay into our workplace pension, it might feel like a good idea, it might feel like the only option for some people,

but it's effectively signing up for a pay cut because you're losing that free money that your employer is putting in towards retirement. And that's storing up massive problems for the future. We've already got to battle the gender pay gap, the gender pensions gap. Women on retirement at the moment have on average two thirds of the pension savings of the average man and that figure is only going to get worse because the cost of living crisis is disproportionately affecting us. As you've brought up pensions there, Claire, there is something called the pensions dashboard that's coming into place in 2023. What is that and how will that impact us financially as women? Well, overall, I think it's a good idea, the pensions dashboard,

but we've had to wait a really long time for it. Lots of people, every single job they have, the average person has eight over the course of their lifetime. Younger people probably have many more. You will get a company pension. But do you have track of all of them? Do you know what you've got as your total number of things saved up for retirement? And the idea of the dashboard is that you'll easily be able to see all of your pensions in one place and crucially not lose track of them, because there are tens of billions of pounds worth of pensions that are kind of lost. Quote unquote, people have moved house. They haven't told the pensions provider about their new address so I think it will really focus people on pension saving which is great but the challenge to the pensions industry is have they got the level of customer service in place to really keep in touch

with us and deliver on what could be a brilliant idea because in my experience the level of customer service in the pensions world is pretty appalling. We want to be realistic which we are being here but we also want to give people maybe a bit of hope and some advice so Gemma what let's talk about some financial resolutions tips on how we can maybe save a bit of money and how we can stick to our financial resolutions yes certainly as i said before it's not easy i wish i had a magic wand and i wish the government would change some things but you know we can't control that we can only control ourselves so like i've said to everybody the main step is making sure loads of people always know what they've got coming in a month they'll happily say oh you know i you know, I take home £2,000 a month, for example.

When you say to people what's going out, a lot of the time they're sort of stunned. They're like, well, my mortgage is £1,200. So it's about going through absolutely everything. I'm not just talking about your mortgage, your gas, electric. It's about looking for patterns. You know, when's your car insurance due? Are you paying that yearly? Are you paying that monthly?

Getting plan of the year ahead is really, really important. I think for this year more than ever is writing everything down. That can be on a bit of paper, that can be on a spreadsheet. I would say there's no right or wrong with money. And look for patterns, you know. Are you every week ordering a takeaway? You know, it might sound crazy, but you could be. Have you cancelled all those subscriptions?

Is there a pattern in your spending? Have you got a car, for example? I always say to everybody to everybody you need a car but you don't need a car that costs you a thousand pounds a month so like look at things like that like if you've got a car can you cut that down to a car that's sort of free 400 pounds a month go and speak to a car garage if you're in a house and you physically can't afford it although it's absolutely horrific is it a better option to downsize can you rent out a bedroom these things are awful to even be saying in this day and age. But we can only control us.

Do you know what I mean? We can't change what's happened with the gas and electric rises. So it's about looking at ways that we can fix it and about shopping savvy and about even like buying things. I've so many girls say to me, oh, I need that bronzer or that lipstick or just little things around the house. And I'll pull out my friend's drawers and I'll be like, you've got 44 eyeshadows in your drawer.

Don't shame me. Don't shame me on the radio. We've all got those 44 eyeshadows because they seem like such a good idea. And it's about looking at things like that, like can you sell them? I sold a MAC eyeshadow on eBay because it had gone out of stock. I think I got like £25 for it. So it's about looking at what can you sell around your house. So, you know, first bit of advice then is whatever

however you feel about your finances you've just got to face up to them we need to if you need to get on top of them you need to face them sure and i would really emphasize to listeners it's not just about cutting back it's also about growing your income the most popular money clinic podcast last year was how to ask your boss for a pay rise and get one and And I'm really not surprised because that will make a bigger difference to the money you've got coming in and the money that you've got going into your pension because it's a percentage of pay. And I think that women are more likely to work part-time.

Three quarters of part-time workers are women. Is it possible that you could go up an extra day or change that? Obviously, this relates to what stage your children are at in the childcare system, because the costs are so great. But working out your career path, spending some time thinking about that, how you can maximise your income, that could be a better source of your time than really trying to fill it down bills or sell an eyeshadow. Claire, we've got to mention whilst we've got you in the room, everyone's favourite subject,

tax. What should we be looking out for, whatever our tax brackets this year? Well, what we're seeing with tax is that the income tax thresholds are going to be frozen for the next few years. But obviously, if you get that pay rise, congratulations to you. But it's likely to push you up into a higher tax bracket. So more of our incomes is going to be going on tax. Now, I'm going to mention pensions for the third time. One way that you can pay less tax if you can afford to be tax efficient is to pay more into your company pension,

especially if your company does salary sacrifice because then you'll also save on national insurance. It could also really benefit you if you're about to go through the £100,000 threshold, because that is the point at which a lot of the free childcare incentives are given away. Lots of people don't realise that. Further down the income scale, £50,000, that's the threshold for child benefit. Pay more into your pension, drop your salary below that if you can afford it, then you keep more of your child benefit. But, you know, lots and lots of acrobatics are having to be done by people to

try and keep on top of this. I was talking to Claire Barrett and Gemma Bird there. We love it when Claire talks pensions. Now, Vandana Shiva has been described as one of the world's most prominent radical scientists by The Guardian. She's the recipient of numerous awards and has founded organisations and committees across the world to promote equality and climate justice. Vandana has also written more than 20 books detailing her various struggles against big corporations and how feminism aligns with the fight against climate change.

She's now got a new book out, Terra Viva, a memoir of her campaigns, which is being released to coincide with her 70th birthday. She explained to me why, despite her numerous qualifications, it's farming that's the highest vocation. I didn't go to do my quantum theory as an achiever. You know, achievement has never guided my life. Seeking, learning, becoming a more full human being is what guided me I just wanted a better understanding of the world but I'd got involved with CHIPCO in any way and I was coming back in every vacation summer winter doing my PhD at the Western Ontario University on the

foundations of quantum theory and non-locality that that, you know, there was a time when I was doing academics. You know, I left academics in 1982 and created the Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Ecology, because in my short period, I'd realized that a six month study for the earth and for people did much more than publishing and publishing and publishing and publishing papers. So when Ritu Menon, my publisher, insisted I write on my understanding of the links between the violence against nature and violence against women, and wrote Staying Alive, I told her, but, you know, I stopped writing, I stopped publishing. She said, but writing can be a subversive activity. And in a way, I've been writing since then.

Ritu Menon, the great Indian feminist writer and publisher, she's actually been a guest on this programme. We did a partition special. And I think it's interesting that it is a woman who encouraged you to write your first book, Women Championing Women. So, you know, there are these gentle nudgings that come from people who, you know, who bring a new dimension to your life, which for you is not important. And I'm grateful. I'm grateful to my teachers.

I'm grateful to my publishers. I'm grateful to the women of Chipco and the rural women who still teach me and the earth who's my permanent teacher. Well, let's talk about the women because you do this in the book. You list a lot of people who have fought alongside you for climate justice and the people you have learned from in your various campaigns. You've mentioned Chipco a couple of times. For our audience, what was the CHIPCO movement? What is it? And talk to us about the women who are at the centre of it. You know, in the early 90s, 70s,

when I was going to Canada to do my PhD, I just wanted to visit my favourite forest and do a little trek. And this forest I'd gone to trek in had gone, it'd been converted into orchard plantations. And streams that came from the oak forests were starting to dry up. This big river in which I used to swim was now a trickle. And that's when I heard about Chipco. And I took a pledge that every vacation I will volunteer for Chipco. The Chipco movement was women coming out to wake up the world that the forests were not timber mines. They were the source of water.

They were the source of water. They were the source of soil stability. One of the most important sacred towns of India called Gujjoshi Math just before Badrinath is slipping and sinking today. People are being evacuated because they're building highways, they're building dams, not caring about how forests and the mountains hold the mountains and uh so chipko engaged i think it's the most creative action i i hope some of the uk ecology movements will take more inspiration from chipko because what was chipko chipko means to hug women understood the links between the forests and the water and their livelihoods they also understood the impact of destruction. But most importantly, the imagination was so creative.

They first organised together. Hundreds would sit in the forest to block the logging. And then they said, we will hug the trees. Chipko, the embrace. The embrace with limitless love is the most powerful force in the world to stop destruction. The original tree huggers. Let's talk about what's happening in Britain then, because Extinction Rebellion has recently announced that they're going to change the way they protest against climate change. They're calling it a shift away from disruption that

focuses on relationships, not roadblocks. Is that a step in the right direction, do you think? Well, you know, if you were to take lessons from Chipko, and I've taken those lessons and shaped, whether I'm saving the seeds, I'm doing a Chipko of the seeds, whether I'm working with my sisters in Bhopal who are resisting the injustice that carries on today when the pesticide plant of Union Carbide leaked. I think the most important part of resistance is for it to be creative and for it to be nonviolent. To be creative means out of what you say no to. There must be a growing of what you say yes to. So it's yes to life and no to the poisons and the destruction and the fossil fuels and the emissions. The second part of any real creative resistance is just as when you really know what the state of the body is in true medicine you

know they just feel the pulse and i've i have been treated by doctors and you just feel the pulse ayurvedic indian medicine is ayurvedic and siddhanyanani and all of those and i think because of the cartesian baconian understanding of knowledge which which came from England, from Mr. Bacon, who was the chancellor, who was part of the witch hunts, who tortured women and the peasants. He thought by torturing nature, you will have more. No, torture and violence is not the source of knowledge. I want to go a bit further afield. As the home of the Amazon rainforest, Brazil is one of the countries at the forefront of climate politics. And just this week, the new president, Lula da Silva, appointed two indigenous women to ministerial positions as environment minister. How significant do you think these appointments

are and what influence do you foresee them having? Well, I think both the appointments are very important. I have worked very closely with Marina Silva while she was an environment minister in Lula's last presidentship, and she reversed the destruction of the Amazon. She invited me to write the framework laws of biosafety, of the indigenous knowledge, the laws against bioparasy. I remember going over the Amazon with her and she pointed out the illegal Cargill port from where the GM soya comes to Europe. And Marina is very important, both because her background is in the Amazon, but she's a true ecologist. She's a true feminist. And we are at this point where the three teachers, you know, everyone talks about the transition, but no one's talking about the transition to what? To more industrialism, nature as teacher, nature as intelligent, indigenous people who've always thought that way, and the third, the women. So in a way,

the two new appointees are the ancient wisdom, and we should give them all congratulations and all our solidarity. And let's just have more of that everywhere. Vandana Shiva there, and lots of you got in touch. Barry says, thank you for including this inspiring woman on your programme. And Jane said, absolutely loved the interview with this amazing woman, Vandana Shiva. We need to hear more from this woman who speaks so much sense. That's all from me today.

Do join Noola on Monday at 10am. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.