Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Economic Abuse, Should there be a Minister for Men? Rebuilding my life: Martine Wright

Episode Date: September 9, 2023

Economic abuse was officially recognised under the Domestic Abuse Act in 2021, yet a new study from the charity Surviving Economic Abuse suggests victims are still being let down by the police and the courts. Their CEO Nicola Sharp-Jeffs joins to tell us more about their findings, alongside ITV broadcaster Ruth Dodsworth who shares her own personal experience.On Tuesday’s programme, the Conservative MP for Don Valley, Nick Fletcher, championed the idea of a Minister for Men. He says statistics show that 75% of people taking their lives are men, that the life expectancy of men is 3.7 years lower than it is for women, that 83% of rough sleepers are men. On Wednesday we heard your views - could a Minister help tackle some of the issues many young men seem to be struggling with, such as masculinity, pornography, consent and their role in society? Could a Minister for Men also make life better for women? And could it be a way to tackle the rise of influencers such as Andrew Tate – a self-declared misogynist?Have you ever been in a 'situationship'? It's sort of a relationship but you're not exclusive. It's the subject of the debut novel of Taylor-Dior Rumble. The Situationship is published by Merky Books and it's been termed the label's first Rom-Com. Rebuilding My Life series: When Martine Wright was rescued from the wreckage of a bombed Tube train on what became known as 7/7, her injuries were so severe that she could not be identified. Both her legs were amputated above the knee. 18 years on, Martine speaks about her road to recovery, physically and emotionally.Is Belfast the new city of love? Well, it’s the backdrop to new Sky Atlantic romcom The Lovers, which follows local supermarket worker Janet and her love affair with English TV presenter, Seamus O’Hannigan who has a whole other life, and a girlfriend, back in London. Roisin Gallagher, who plays Janet, talks about filming in her hometown and the changing perceptions of Northern Ireland’s capital.Presenter; Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Sarah Crawley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. As always, we've got a packed show for you today featuring the best of the Woman's Hour guests and interviews from this week just gone. Coming up this afternoon, Martine Wright on rebuilding her life after losing both her legs in the 7-7 bombings in 2005. I believe the journey in our lives is the destination. There's no utopia. There's no, you know, things will happen good and bad in our lives. And it's the way that we deal with it, the way that we believe in what has happened to us that will

get us through. Also, are our men and boys in crisis? We'll hear your views on the idea of a minister for men and we'll discuss the debut novel from Taylor Dior Rumble, The Situationship, when a relationship is described as more than friends but less than official. I feel like because of social media there is this pressure for every single moment to be picture perfect, be social media ready. And I feel like that does reflect in our dating lives.

We're so scared of embarrassing ourselves possibly or sticking our neck out in trying to open up to somebody that we don't take that leap of faith that I feel like finding someone takes. But first, every 20 minutes, a case involving economic abuse is brought to the police. This is where perpetrators have control over their victims' bank accounts, utilities or pensions, to name just a few examples. The effects of economic abuse can be long lasting. Those impacted can struggle to recover their credit score, build their finances back up, find housing or even get a mobile phone. And yet, despite it being added to the Domestic Abuse Act in 2021, a new study has found that police and courts are not using their powers to fully hold offenders of economic abuse to account.

Someone who has personal experience of this is broadcaster and weather presenter for ITV, Ruth Doddsworth. I spoke to her on Friday about her experiences and started off by asking her why she wants to talk about this. I think the simple answer is because we absolutely need to. You know, we talk about domestic abuse. I think, you know, people are very aware that domestic abuse is happening. But I think there are so many different types of domestic abuse and forms and traits and economic abuse is very much a part of that and it's not something that we we talk about often i mean let's face it money is is a yucky conversation isn't it people don't like talking about it but actually when you don't have

money when you don't have access to funds it can make life very very difficult and for someone who's in an abusive relationship it can actually actually, it's your only means sometimes of getting out. And when you don't have access to funds, you don't have access to, you know, to getting away, to getting on a bus, to getting out of that place, you are trapped then in that relationship. And very often that can be deadly. So let's hear your story. When did the abuse first start? Well, I mean, I was married for 18 years. We were together for nearly 20 years. And I'd say pretty much, I mean, looking back,

hindsight is an amazing thing, isn't it? But I would say actually that the abuse was almost there from day one. And it's, you know, the early days of a relationship, you make excuses because actually a bit of jealousy and possessiveness is actually,

it's quite flattering in a way. Gosh, he must really care about me. But, you know, there's a point at which it becomes sinister and a point at which, you know, screaming and shouting then becomes physical. So in a sense, that side of the abuse was there from day one. But actually, the economic abuse, which is part of the sort of coercive controlling behaviour, is very insidious.

And actually, you don't necessarily realize what's going on so in my case you know um suddenly my bank card disappeared my salary would would go into my bank and it would go he would withdraw it did he did you know he he had your bank card yeah but and it seems to sit here and say that now you i can guarantee that people will be thinking, well, how on earth? How on earth could you let that happen? What do you mean you didn't have your bank card? What do you mean you didn't have access to money? Well, actually, this is part of it.

You see, you don't necessarily realise. And then if you ask. Well, he was your husband. He was your husband, right? Yeah, absolutely. You trust that person, the person who loves and cares for you. Can you actually describe exactly what he was in control of and how it was manifesting and what it was doing to you

just sort of almost kind of list what what this how this control played out so so economic abuse in my case was i had no access to money if i wanted money for food, for lunch, I had to ask for it. What that does to you, and it might sound trivial, is that strips away your dignity. It strips away your access to the outside world because you can't just go out and go and do a food shop. You have to ask. In a sense, it's asking permission. And that gives that other person absolute 100% control and power because without that money, you are absolutely stuck. It takes away your ability to interact with the outside world, to talk to people, to realize in a sense that this is happening to you. And it was your money and he was taking it and spending it. Did you know what he was spending it on? He was gambling. He was drinking.

He certainly wasn't paying the bills that I thought and assumed that he was. You know, I'm lucky in that I own a wage and I'm now able to sort of pay rent and so on. But he left me with nothing. The bank account had nothing in it. So I've worked on television for 26 years. I have a pension, which he wants half of. And as a divorce, he's almost entitled to it.

Other than that, I have no assets. I have no savings. I have a very basic bank account, which I had to beg the bank to give me because of my credit rating. My daughter's in university and as much as I'd like to be able to help her, financially, I can't. I literally have the money I earn and that is it. And that's where I am at after 26 years. So it's difficult. It is difficult. When did you recognise that it was economic abuse? I think probably only after he was first arrested. And part of the problem was that when he was arrested,

the police found bags and bags of paperwork, loans and mortgages that he'd taken out in my name. Things that I am liable for because they're in my name. And let's face it, at the end of the day, the banks and the institutions want their money back. And there's a sense that, well, actually, you know, the fact you didn't know is no defence. It's, you know, ignorance is no defence. The money, you owe it. So I am left with a huge amount of debt that he accrued in my name I now have to pay that off my credit rating is absolutely destroyed because of it so things like renting a home you know I'm 48 years old my elderly parents and they'll hate me for saying elderly

but you know they've had to act as a guarantor so that I can rent a house getting a mobile phone contract you know these are things that I can rent a house. Getting a mobile phone contract. You know, these are things that I cannot do because my credit rating is destroyed. So in a sense, the economic abuse isn't just when you're in that relationship that the ripple effect is long lasting. When did the police get involved and how? The police got involved because if I hadn't dialed 999, I wouldn't be alive and sitting here talking to you. And, you know, that's the stark reality of my case. Four years ago in October, my children basically said to me,

Mum, don't come home because he will kill you. He'd been on a drink-fuelled rampage for 24 hours. That was pretty standard, you know, and I was used to that. But I think this particular point, I told him I wanted a divorce. He couldn't tighten his grip anymore. But this is a man who basically said to me, well, if I can't have you, no one else can. And I think if I hadn't dialed 999, then 100 percent I wouldn't be here. So in a sense, the police got involved. I went to work Thursday morning. He was arrested Friday morning and I never saw him again.

So, you know, again, it's that the police and the authorities now, the more we're talking about coercive, controlling behaviour, domestic abuse, the more that they now are recognising the signs. Because let's face it, you know, it's not always a case of somebody presenting with bruises and injuries. Coercive, controlling behaviour is very much a sort of a hidden thing. And I think, you know, these conversations are important because they save lives. Getting it out there, keeping that conversation going, making sure people recognise and understand these various forms of abuse will save someone's life, and it certainly saved my life. You got in touch with the police because, you know, your life was under threat. Your children have now stepped in to say, mum, you know, this, you need to, you need to do something.

How did the police take on the economic abuse? Quite simply, they didn't. You know, this is four years ago. The economic side of it, in a sense, was sidelined because to their mind, it detracted from other elements of the case. So ultimately, it was a bit of paperwork. There were other aspects, coercive controlling behaviour, stalking, and a couple of other charges, but that's what they wanted to focus on. So, you know, four years ago, economic abuse wasn't, it wasn't known. It wasn't part of the case, very much so. When did you find the courage to do something? And how did you? I think in a sense, he gave me no option. So I don't know if it was courage, or it was the very

fact that my children and a friend said to me, if you do not ring the police we will and actually that I guess that sort of forced my hand in a sense but thank goodness they did do that in my case it was survival it was it was it was do or die basically so you know and thank goodness I did and anyone again anyone listening to this who might think well you know that's happening to me oh gosh I know someone all I would say is please just ask for help because again life after that abusive relationship is just that it is life um and and so often people stuck in abusive relationships don't get out alive and is there a particular moment Ruth that stands out for you where you really felt a sense of getting your life back and your independence back oh Oh gosh, that's such a difficult one because every single day I'm building my life. I'm

relearning certain things. I had a bit of a eureka moment actually after my ex-husband had been arrested and someone had given me some money, not very much. And I was able to go buy a cup of coffee on the local high street here and I didn't have to ask permission I didn't have to ask um if I could go and buy that coffee and it was a real moment it was it's so simple but for me to be able to go and buy myself a cup of coffee changed everything but suddenly that was me being independent and that was me being able to do something for myself and that was an amazing feeling just something as simple as that thank you for sharing your story really takes courage to do just this i i i talk about the kids and i think that's when it sort of it gets me more than anything that's the emotional side of it for me you know but uh yeah they're they're fine and and life goes on so you know and um we're

happy that ruth is fine and uh that was ruth doddsworth um sharing her story there um and i should say we contacted south wales police who dealt with ruth's case they say financial abuse remains a pervasive tactic utilized by perpetrators of domestic abuse and violence while many recognized forms of abuse such as psychological physical sexual and emotional it's essential to understand I'm now joined in the studio by Nicola Sharp-Jeffs who's CEO of Surviving Economic Abuse who carried out the study. How common are stories like Ruth's? Sadly stories like Ruth's are very very common. The research that we undertook as part of our partnership with the Women and Child Abuse Studies Unit at London Met University and funded by Barclays, found that two-thirds of all successfully prosecuted

coercive or controlling behaviour cases reported in the media included one form of economic abuse. But at the same time, we know that a lot of victims and survivors don't call the police. I mean, just listening to Ruth there, it was her children who pushed her into doing it. We know that the vast majority don't, so this is likely to be the tip of the iceberg. If a case is reported every 20 minutes,

containing some elements of economic abuse, why is this factor being sidelined? Do you think when it comes to charges and prosecution? It's really interesting. The title of the report, Seen But Sidelined, actually came from Ruth's interview with us. She inspired that title, because yes, it is being seen. But as Ruth explained, the police are just finding other forms of coercive or controlling behaviour easier to evidence. For example, physical abuse, things that are leaving bruises. Economic abuse is very insidious, as Ruth talked about, it can be very difficult to see and to recognise. And one of the reasons why we really need to increase police understanding but also public understanding of economic abuse more generally

is because where you want to catch it early, it can be one of the earliest forms of coercive or controlling behaviour. Victims and survivors might see it as caring behaviour, you know, don't worry, you're very busy, let me look after the finances. That's what Ruth said at the beginning, it's quite flattering to feel that this person might want to protect you or feel jealous even. This is it. And it's not until later that you might recognise, therefore, that you don't have the money to buy a cup of coffee. You know, a lot of us talk about coercive or controlling behaviour as being a freedom crime.

And I think, again, Ruth really demonstrated that. So it's vitally important that we catch this behaviour really early, that we are prosecuting it before it escalates to the levels that Ruth described. I mean, a Home Office report showed that a third of homicides feature economic issues. So we really need to ensure that we're not waiting for victims and survivors to contact the police because their lives are in danger, that they're reporting because of the control,

the freedom that's being taken away from them, so that we can reduce the homicide rates. We've now had two to three women still in this day and age being killed by a current or a former partner every single week. And that's not even thinking about the women who take their own lives. And again, there were several women within the research who took their own lives and one charge of manslaughter within the study. What struck me was when Ruth said something about when she

explained that he'd taken a bank card and she said I know people listening will be thinking well how did you allow that to happen? I just wonder about the sense of shame that comes attached to something as specific as finances. I think there's a double taboo here we don't talk about finances as a society and we don't talk about abuse as well so when you bring those two things together it can be really difficult but conversations like this on studies such as the one that Surviving Economic Abuse has produced, you know, really do start the conversation. And that's vitally important for the reasons that I've outlined, you know, to stop it escalating. And finally, how do we move on from here? Should police and judges be offered some sort of special

training? What's the next step? Well, Surviving Economic Abuse is urging the government to act through the Victim and Prisoner's Bill, which is going through Parliament at the moment. It's vitally important to us that perpetrators are held accountable for all forms of their behaviour and that victims and survivors get that true justice. So that would include things like police training, certainly, better prosecution within the court service, a recognition within sentencing of the economic impact on victims and survivors, and importantly, the awarding of compensation orders. So they seek to address lost damage or expenses incurred as a result of the crime. And if we're not addressing economic abuse in the prosecution, then that's not going to be a factor that's considered by the judge.

Again, in our study, just 2% of victims and survivors received a compensation order. And, you know, hundreds of women, as this research has shown, you know, are homeless, they're destitute, they're in debt, they've lost their jobs, they've lost their prospects, they've lost their belongings, and they're having to rebuild their lives with a poor credit rating. So that's something that we would like the government to do to really work with the financial services, who are doing great work in this area, but specifically credit reference agencies, to address issues around credit ratings and history,

so that survivors can rebuild safely. Nicola Sharp-Jeffs and Ruth Doddsworth. Now this week, we've been discussing the idea of a Minister for Men. The Minister for Women and Equalities targets policies across government departments. Nick Fletcher, the Conservative MP for Don Valley, is calling for a role that would focus on policies pertaining to men. Nick believes that men and boys face such difficulties today that they need extra help. He told us how statistics show that 75% of people taking their lives are men, that the life expectancy of men is 3.7 years lower than

it is for women in addition 83 percent of rough sleepers are men and that 96 percent of the prison population are men and if the outcomes for men and boys improved he said that would be of benefit to women as well here's a flavor of what he had to say. If men are living a better, happier, healthier life, then it is better for women too, and it's better for society as a whole. And when I became a member of the Parliament, it was one of the things that I wanted to jump on. I'm from Doncaster, and I see an awful lot of young boys and young men out there with little aspiration, and life's not given them the best opportunities and they tend to be neglected by lots of people within the authority and also government as a whole.

We need to be addressing this. You'll know about the gender pay gap, the lack of female women at the top table in companies, the fact that less than a third of MPs in the House of Commons are women. How would you respond to that? Do you feel the needs of boys and men are greater than that of girls and women? No, not at all. I've got a wife and a daughter and I want them to have fantastic lives too, just as much as my son and myself. I mean, we've obviously over the last century we've worked really hard to obviously with equality and to put women at the table along with men which is super important but we can do two things at once and I think what we tend to have done

we've pressed and pressed and pressed for women to have equality, to have equal pay, to have equal rights which is all right, it's everything that we should do, but I think at this moment in time, especially in over the last 10-15 years, we are neglecting our young boys and young men that are coming through.

I'm just wondering what that job would be for the Minister for Men, for example, would it be I don't know, to talk about male privilege privilege for example or for boys and men to understand uh the privilege that they have within society would it be that far-reaching i don't think i ever felt particularly privileged uh i mean i think i i come from a working class background and to to become a member of parliament was one of uh obviously, an actual wonderful thing. But I've got here through an awful lot of hard work. I don't believe it's necessarily through privilege, I believe.

And I think that's what we should be doing. I think when we say words like privilege, we put barriers for people who don't believe that they've got that. I think most things are achievable for everybody if they're prepared to work hard. That was Nick Fletcher. Well, on Wednesday, we opened up the phone lines to you to find out what your thoughts are on a minister for men. Nuala was joined in the studio by Michael Conroy, who founded Men at Work. But first, here's Holly.

I was calling not really because of a fear for boys, but more because I agreed with some of the things that you said. And I thought that a minister for boys, perhaps perhaps was something that I would get on board with whereas I wasn't quite so sure about the minister for men I've been a teacher for over a decade and I do think that some boys are put off by the the idea of feminism and by some of what we're trying to achieve by celebrating International Women's Day in schools and things like that, and that they could be more engaged with the whole issue. Thanks to Holly.

I'm joined on the line by Michael Conroy, who founded Men at Work, which focuses on unpicking some of the social influences on the values and beliefs of boys and young men and how some of those influences can manifest in a range of problematic behaviours. OK, Michael, welcome to Women's Hour. What would you like to pick up on? The issues are super important, but we need to discuss what the issues are.

I listened to Mr. Fletcher's interview yesterday and I was troubled, as I was when I watched the, there was an APPG, All-Party Parliamentary Group, on this proposal. There was a panel last year i watched that i was about an hour long i was troubled by the mentioning the really serious issues and then kind of non-sequitur leaps to solutions that didn't seem to make sense now one of them are thinking about men who are overwhelmingly the victims of violence they are yeah we are sorry but we overwhelmingly the victims of violence. They are, yeah. We are, sorry. But we're the victims of male violence. And what we need to do, really, if we really care about boys

and if we really care about men, we need to try and unpick cultural beliefs and social influence that teach so many of us that it's okay to treat each other violently and treat women and girls violently. That would be the single biggest bonus for men, I would suggest, in physical health and mental health that could possibly be done. But it tends to be that the voices who are calling for Minister for Men, I find it slightly childish, if I could say that.

It's almost like, you've got that, I want that. You've got that, I want one of them as well. You've got a pink one, I want a blue one. It's not really about the issues. It's more about a semblance of parity.

But picking up on some of the calls, I thought Holly's was interesting. A minister for boys is needed, she says, not a minister for men. You go into schools, you speak to boys. What do you think of that proposal? I like it. It made me smile. I thought that's an interesting idea.

And it would be very much in tune with the way I try and operate. It's like looking upstream. We need to look upstream and avoid a culture which is on a permanent loop of picking up the pieces, applying Band-Aids. So if we could do really radical, holistic work with boys and young men to protect them from the awful barrage of negative influence to which they are exposed from their earliest experiences online, I think we'd be doing something really wonderful. And I'd be all for

that. Whether it's a minister for or just some political will, it's a different question. Michael Conroy is going to stay with us, Michael, but I want to turn to Antonia, who is in Devon. I think it's such a shame that we have got to a position where men and women feel against each other. Coming from the perspective of having an older son and two younger sons. There's definitely a problem here that we're not working together to fix the problem, but we're feeling on opposing sides. And I mean, when I speak about influencers like Andrew Tate, is that something you've discussed with your boys? Yeah, I think my older boy has definitely touched into the Andrew Tate sort of perspective. And he feels that there is a sense of having lost your identity as a man in society now.

And I think they do need to definitely understand their privilege. They do have a privilege and we still live in a patriarchal society. But also, I think boys have lost their idols and they've lost the people that they can see themselves in. And they do need that as much as women do. So interesting. Stay with us, Antonio. I'll bring you in, Michael. What would you say to Antonio? I mean, is that something that you see, particularly that loss of identity? And for those that aren't familiar with Andrew Tate, he is a self-declared misogynist who has a huge following online.

There is a feeling from a lot of boys and young men, 14, 15, 16, that a grave injustice has been done to them. And that is a really interesting thought when you're drilled down, what is that injustice?

You know, what is it we're supposed to have that we don't have can i bring in antonia again um it's so interesting that you talk about your eldest son being influenced by andrew tay do you speak to him about that i mean you're obviously a woman his mother how does he feel about you or i don't know whether they're sisters or friends or cousins that are women well i think it's always that you can disassociate from the people in your life

when you're talking about Andrew Tate, for example. You don't then reflect on the women that he's being offensive towards as the women in your life. And I think, again, that's because we need to bring the conversation together because women and men in family situations respect each other and we should

be doing that with the idols as well and if we have a minister for men maybe he can then present some more appealing idols for these men to feel that they have a voice through. So interesting and thank you Antonia. Michael I saw you nodding at that point when Antonia says they disassociate those immediate women around them from that larger concept of women in society. Yeah, absolutely. That's such a common thing is that we've got our women, our mums and our sisters and our partners or whoever it might be. But then there are other women as well. That split screen is fascinating to explore with boys and young men. And what I'm all about is having really good, constructive dialogues with boys and young men about what it means to be a boy and a young man in 2023, hooked up online to this kind of welter of messages and images.

Michael, let us take another call. We have John on the line. Talk me through how you are seeing this conversation about whether we need a minister for men. Well, I would say definitely it wouldn't be the whole solution, but it's definitely a beginning. The education system is definitely changed since the 80s. There was only a few subjects where there was a massive difference between boys and girls in the 80s and now girls are massively outperforming boys and particularly in the poor areas where boys are really doing badly at education and that is therefore giving them a terrible start because they haven't got there are no longer the jobs that that require no education those in general don't exist. So therefore they're becoming unemployed, disaffected, bored,

and then possibly angry and possibly violent. And that is affecting the whole of society. I mean, some might say that is a failure of levelling up, for example, or a failure of poverty policies. Yeah, partly it is poverty and lack of investment in those areas. But it also covers the whole of the country because you've got, obviously, nursery schools, you've got primary schools, you've got secondary schools, and teachers that are male are becoming less and less common.

And, you know, we touched on this yesterday, John, because Nick Fletcher, the MP, was calling for more men to be role models within various professions, be it caring professions or teaching. But they are lower paid jobs and they are not jobs that are attracting young men. It all depends where you're measuring it from. In areas of the north of England and the north of Wales,

it's actually quite a well-paid job. Why do you think boys are not, you know, beginning to aspire to go into those fields? Because there is a shortage, of course, whether we talk about traditional female roles like nurses, for example, or other roles within the NHS or indeed teachers? I think it's partly society's view and possibly men's view of a man being a particularly a nursery or primary teacher is not it's not a positive career as far as society is thinking it's more of a you should be doing something else you should be doing something maybe with older children, maybe with tertiary education. And also, I think it's a bit of a fear of people judging them. What are you doing that for? Why are you teaching little kids? Why can't you deal with the older

kids? Are you a bit... So it's something to do with society's perspective on masculinity. Exactly. It is exactly that. Let us turn to Laura, not her real name. Good to have you with us, Laura. What's your thoughts when you hear some of the conversation? I listened this morning and it really struck a nerve with me. My brother is an extremely educated man.

He's an engineer. He's always been extremely loving. He's always been a valuable member of our family. And over probably the last probably about two years, I've seen bizarre views that's come from him, extreme misogynistic views. And he's, you know, said to me that Andrew Tate is king. Andrew Tate is giving him the guidance that he needs to be successful. It seems to be like very extreme views about females not working. Females need to be at the home. Where did that come from, Laura? I mean, it's your brother.

I mean, was he always like that or was it, do you feel? No, we had, you know, parallel upbringings. He was never, never of that view. I feel personally that it's from YouTube Reels that he's watching. I try to, I've had another approach with him now where I try to engage with it and say, you know, well, where did you get

that bit of information from? And it's mainly from YouTube. It's from YouTube Reels that Andrew Tate does. Does he understand your fears for him? He feels that I'm part of the problem, that me saying that Andrew Tate maybe isn't the best person to give you your life guidance.

He thinks that I would be saying that because I'm female and I'm trying to prevent him. Thank you so much for your call. Andrew in Islington, welcome. You are thinking solutions. Give me one in 30 seconds. Park benches all across the United Kingdom.

They should have one park bench that says, I sit here and I'm willing to chat because I do think that not enough people are chatting. You don't need a psychologist. You just need someone who's objective and doesn't know you so that you can be open and honest. This comes back to opening up, Michael, to being able to chat wherever it is, because people are chatting online with Andrew Tate and others like him. But Andrew brings up that the objective observer to be able to help men find their place, discuss issues that might be really

that they're struggling with. Objective observers and counsellors or therapists are a really good thing. Again, you could sit in an office or a school with a poster with a helpline number on it for men or boys, but what is it that stops us using it? And is it a sense of shame that we're not strong? And that brings us right back. What are men supposed to be?

And if we're supposed to be strong at the expense of all else, we will keep hurting. And we will also keep hurting women and girls because the formula is wrong. That was Michael Conroy. And you heard from Andrew, Laura, John, Antonia and Holly. And you can listen to the whole phone-in. It's Wednesday's programme from this week,

the 6th of September on BBC Sounds. Still to come on the programme, Martine Wright on rebuilding her life after losing her legs in the 7-7 bombings of 2005. And the actor Roisin Gallagher on her new rom-com set in Belfast called The Lovers. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to The Lovers. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week.

All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, are you or have you ever been in a situationship? It's the subject of the debut novel by Taylor Dior Rumble, who describes her book, The Situationship, as more than friends, less than official. It follows the life of Tia, a young journalist in London trying to make a success of her career and her love life.

The book is published by Murky Books, the publishing group created by the rapper Stormzy, and it's been termed the label's first rom-com. Taylor Dior spoke to Nuala on Monday and she started by asking her how she'd describe a situationship. I would describe a situationship as a romantic relationship without the label, without any real sense of security. So again, you're a bit more than friends,

but you're not serious enough to maybe commit to one another. On both sides? So I feel like with situationships, it tends to be typically one-sided, but, you know, like relationships do evolve and the times have evolved as well so sometimes it can be like both people are scared to commit as well but I feel like typically situationships are one-sided which that's what makes it so difficult I mentioned Tia um you're you were a journalist like Tia is a journalist um have you got experiences of situationships? I've definitely had my fair share. And the book was inspired by a lot of things that

myself and my friends had been going through and our frustrations with the dating scene and trying to find someone to connect with. So yeah, definitely some real life inspo in there. some some real life inspo in there and and what is the challenge do you think um because i mean it's a story as you know long as time memorial of the person who is somewhat unavailable or not ready to commit in the way that perhaps the other partner is uh what do you feel and see or your friends talk about in the dating scene right now? I think right now it just seems like a lot of people don't want to put any real effort in and I think with the rise of social media and how common like dating apps and using those apps have become there's always this idea

that we have like this unlimited choice and someone is just a swipe away so I feel like because of that we're a lot less inclined to maybe put in effort with one person at a time and and really invest in getting to know that person because you just think oh there's someone else like just right after I swipe so I think there's that and also I just feel like um again this could be as as old as time but I feel like people are scared to just be open and vulnerable I feel like with social media that exasperates this need to constantly be perfect and have every single thing figured out because you're constantly comparing yourself to other people I was struck with that really in the first pages when Tia's getting ready to go out and see this guy and she says it has to

be flawless she had to be flawless I was like flawless I mean well talk about a tall order and then the night having to be perfect yeah but I think you were tapping into um an unrealistic expectation 100% I feel like because of social media there is this pressure for every single moment to be picture perfect and in slow mo and like be social media ready um ready and and I feel like that does reflect in our dating lives we're so scared of embarrassing ourselves possibly or sticking our neck out in trying to like open up to somebody that we don't take that leap of faith that I feel like finding someone takes. Let me put that in another sphere which is the work sphere. Tia struggles to get her ideas noticed she's working as a journalist, as I mentioned.

Do you think that's an experience that many young journalists face? And you particularly talk about young black women. Again, those experiences were definitely inspired by a lot of the real feelings I had working as a journalist, as well as my peers and my colleagues. And I do think, unfortunately, it is quite a common experience. I mean, in the the UK there's only 0.2 percent of working journalists are black even though we make up like three percent of the

population and so I feel like it it can be difficult when you're trying to present these stories that a lot of people in the newsroom otherwise wouldn't really know about and especially when you're new to the workforce and there's like all this office bureaucracy and politics that you can't really be taught and you kind of have to learn as you go along so yeah I would say. What was the experience of writing the book like for you it's your debut novel you went from being a journalist boom straight into this and you're the first rom-com from Erky as well.

I'll be honest, the writing experience itself, the journey was a bit chaotic just because I hadn't gone to uni before. I've never written anything this long. You did Google how to write a book. I definitely Googled how to write a book because I was like,

how do you start this thing? But luckily for me, I was very clear on how I wanted the book to end and how I wanted this young woman to feel and how I wanted her to feel at the end of this journey. And I worked my way backwards. So writing it at the start was quite difficult. But then once I found exactly how I wanted readers to feel

after they completed the story, then it was a lot easier from there. But in terms of working with Black Merky Books and being the first rom-com, it's just been amazing. the story then it was a lot easier from there but in terms of working with Black Murky Books and being the first rom-com um that was it's just been amazing it's been it's been so lovely just working with people committed to pushing unrepresented voices to the forefront of publishing um you did it during the pandemic you mentioned the pandemic at the beginning of our interview um how was that and I know you lost your dad during that time and I'm really sorry about that,

but I'm just thinking about all these different emotions that must have been coursing through you as you wrote. Do you know what? I started writing the book properly maybe a couple of months after his funeral. So in December 2019, then the pandemic kicked off like February 2020, I would say. And like in hindsight, it was really cathartic that I had something to focus in on every single day and I

think for my mum and my sister as well as we were grieving together like lockdown was kind of kind of the perfect opportunity for us to just sit with our feelings and slowly try and work out how we can go back to normal living without the expectations of like a nine to five and what the world was like before lockdown but writing the book was really cathartic and it was just nice for me to have to tap into my worries and what my life was like before my dad got diagnosed with cancer you know when the my biggest worries were if that guy was going to text me back or if I'm doing enough at work to get that promotion so it I kind of feel like writing the book saved me in some ways from from going a bit crazy and it was just nice creating this kind of

world filled with banter and a little bit of drama and a couple steamy moments it was it was a really nice escapism and I think that's why I love romantic comedy so much. You're an author now how does it feel? Oh it feels insane I feel so grateful and blessed and I'm just excited to write more stories and just connect with more people. That was Taylor Dior Rumble. Now this week we featured a series called Rebuilding My Life the idea being to delve into the aftermath of a traumatic event to find out how the person began to recover and move on. We heard from Claire Russell on Monday and from Wiz Wharton on Thursday. You can find both those interviews on BBC Sounds. Today we'll hear Martine Wright's story. She lost both her legs in the 7-7 bombings of 2005. She was travelling on a busy Circle Line tube when the

device was detonated and became the most injured female survivor on a day that claimed 52 lives in London. Martine's injuries were so severe, she could not be identified at first. She was also in a coma. When she came round, she learned her legs had been amputated above the knee and that there were many months of gruelling rehab ahead of her. She went on to represent Great Britain at the Paralympics

and is now an ambassador for charities and hospital trusts. She's always said that if she had the choice again, she would still get on that train. I think it's a personal thing. It's how you look at something. But I truly believe that they were always meant to make that journey. I suppose it was a bit of a sliding doors moment for me. And I believe that I was meant to get on that tube.

I believe that I was meant to be one of the very, very lucky people and be saved by Liz Kenworthy. And because, you know, as you mentioned already, I become a Paralympian. And if anyone remembers that day, they might remember the day before. And that was the day that we all found out that London had won the Olympic and Paralympic bid. And, you know, the last thing I remember on the tube before the explosion happened was I've got to get tickets. I've got to get tickets. I didn't get a ticket. I took part seven years later which is

now my lucky number that I wear on my shirt um so yeah you wear that number on your shirt yes people do think I'm slightly mad sometimes but I I wear that number on my shirt for many reasons one is that day yeah people could see it as it was an unlucky day for me. I have some friends that say sometimes actually there was part of it that was quite lucky for you and who you've become and, you know, the people that you've met and the, you know, what I do and help other people get through trauma and things like that. So, yeah, I suppose it was a belief that it was supposed to happen to me. And it was a belief that there's no way getting away from that day with who I am and who I am today. So really, that's why I wanted to wear number seven.

But also, I wear that number seven because I have had the honour to meet so many of those 52 people that died that day, their families and their friends. And they live with this as well as other victims that have been affected by terrorism every day of their lives. So I wanted something to give me strength, really. And each and every one of those 52 people and their family still give me strength every day. So there's a few things I want to pick up on one of the first things you said there is how you look at it and you talk about that belief as well you were meant to get on that tube was there a point that you can trace to the beginning of your rebuilding process that you were able to make a conscious decision on how you were going to look at it?

Yeah, I mean, I think in life we're faced with many turning points, all of us, but I do look back and I look at one day where I think it was a big turning point and it actually came about seven weeks after the bombing happened. And I was only strong enough that day, seven weeks after, to sit up in my bed and transfer to a wheelchair and go to the physio gym and basically throw a balloon up in the air, which was like a huge med ball, let's say, for me.

I remember going into this room and seeing all manner of different people. And I suppose it was a day of two halves for me, really, because I went into this gym and I met other victims of that day of 7-7. And I felt quite angry the first time I went in there because I looked around the room and I looked at everyone's injuries and everyone's physicalities and all I kept thinking was well why have I lost both my legs above the knee why am I the most injured survivor that female survivor as I'm looking at other victims who lost you know one foot one one arm one leg so it was that feeling of why has this happened to me but then interestingly I started talking to these other victims and I realized that a lot of them were more psychologically traumatized for

me I don't know why um if I knew that I'd probably be a multi-billionaire and wrap it put it put it in a bottle but I started speaking to them and started realizing that you know they're going to find this we're all going to find this tough but they're going to find it extra tough and I felt like I had a job to do I suppose to talk to people I think you probably know that I quite like talking you know I felt like I had and that I could help these people and as a result of that I believe this was my day as well as that obviously again I've mentioned already but I I had no idea that 52 people had died that day I went into that room and I had no idea about that so when I found that out I pretty much turned around to myself and again I know this might sound cheesy but I don't think there's anything wrong with cheese sometimes um but I turned around and said Martine

pull yourself together you've got two choices and you can sit there and you can keep asking that question and obviously that question was why me why me and I said never walk again or decide to get up and and get on with life and I realized looking down that room that I had a choice. I had a choice. I don't know what my life was going to involve in the future, but I had that choice. And there were 52 people and their families that didn't have that choice. I have a feeling you've always been chatty. Yes, yes, I have.

And I'm just wondering, was there something else or were there other parts of you from before that you were hanging on to or using because we're looking for I suppose those tools or those things you were able to use to rebuild whatever those blocks were yeah I mean again you don't think of those tools before you need them and you know i believe all of us all of us have a story there's this your listeners today yourself all of us have got a story or know of someone that has a big story of sadness i suppose or trauma in their in their lives um and yes those people had said to me um when it all happens that I can get through it and that I was

always a positive person I was always a glass half full than than half empty again you know you don't think of the resilience you don't think of how I'm going to deal with this you know obviously in the beginning I thought who am I yeah I woke up and I was literally half the woman that I was eight days earlier and it was it was who am I now and and what is my life you know I was an international marketing manager the night before celebrating we were colleagues that we we won the olympic bid and then suddenly eight days later i was disabled i was an amputee i was as i said half the woman that i felt like i was but then the most important question i had to ask myself was what was i going to do about it and yeah you talk about how i might have gone

back to familiarity i mean familiarity and strength and love is from my family and from my friends. And there's no way that I would have been able to get through what I went through. I mean, I remember one day my brother said to me, and it was very early on, straight after I come out of the coma, and he was crying by my bedside. I laughed because there were many people crying by my bedside

at that point. And he said, I've had a terrible thought. I'm not going to tell you. And I said, please tell me, Grant, what is it? And he said, out of three of us, and I've got an older brother and an older sister, I think you've been chosen. I think you have been the one because you're the strongest out of all of us.

And I don't think me or Tracy would be able to handle that and that that belief not my belief but his belief in me you know really got me to think right I've just got to get on with it I've I've got to get on with it and I think the way that I've coped with it a lot of the time is comparing myself to other people and that helps awful awful people yeah and I used to feel really selfish about saying this very early on 18 years old and I don't because I think what has helped me with my mental well-being is is that belief that belief in myself but also the belief that people have in around you and also belief that I was lucky that day so yeah you are there were 52 people that weren't and I was lucky so I think what I'm

really hearing from you along with your great sense of humor and obviously strong personality and resilience is gratitude um and that seems to be yeah the thing that that has got you through and I think all of us need to look out there. You know, people need to realise, well, I think everyone does realise, especially with what we've all been through the last few years. But I believe the journey in our lives is the destination.

There's no utopia. There's no, you know, things will happen good and bad in our lives. And it's the way that we deal with it, the way that we believe in what has happened to us that will get us through that was nula talking to martin wright now the lovers is a new tv series which came out yesterday on sky atlantic and it follows local supermarket worker janet and her whirlwind romance with english tv broadcaster seamus oHanigan, who has a whole other life and girlfriend back in London.

Well, Roisin Gallagher plays Janet, and she told me all about her. Janet's quite the woman. She is described as a foul-mouthed supermarket worker who doesn't really care about very much at all. I'd say that's pretty accurate, but I think like so many really well-written multi-dimensional characters, there's much more to the story than that. You know, we're dealing with somebody when we first meet her who's quite lost and disconnected from herself spiritually, from her community,

and really doesn't believe, I feel she really doesn't value herself and feel like she can be loved. And then she meets a man and he doesn't change that. He doesn't fix her. But what he does do is somehow give her the space to see that actually she is worthy of that love. And yeah, it's a really special journey that the two of them go on sold absolutely sold um when you got the script and you read this fantastic character that you could get into and you also read that it's a story set in belfast as a local girl as a belfast lass what did you think oh i mean as a belfast girl i think it was first of all it was like oh my god this is about this is in Belfast this is

amazing I get to do this part in my own voice this is the real deal you know um David Ireland the writer is from Belfast he knows it inside out he loves the city and I really feel like it's a love letter to Belfast. And how important is that for you to be in it, but also for people to see that? It's so important. It makes me feel so proud to be a part of that telling of that brilliant story. But I think, you know, the world perhaps has seen Belfast

in not a very beautiful, vibrant, creative light. And I think The Lovers really shows that that is what Belfast is. It's a city that's much more about unification than division. And we've come a really long way. And, you know, like so many of our writers, David doesn't pretend it didn't happen. Yeah. It's there.

It's a part of the tapestry of our history and it's there, but it's more about hope and love and connection and the human condition of meeting somebody that you just, something happens. Yeah, because one of the things the show does really well is striking the balance between showing modern Belfast but also hinting to the history in the past because it's the story of Belfast.

Was that difficult to do? And is there anything that really stands out for you in particular? Yeah, I think the difficulty probably was about a realisation for me that, yes, this place and this history and what is in my DNA and my makeup, as somebody who was born in 1987 and, and experienced, you know, have memories of the Good Friday Agreement, the peace process. It feels like it's not until I see that through another person,

another character, another story's eyes that I realise what, how profoundly it can affect and and um and determine your future as a person you know and um I feel like I feel very lucky actually that I got a chance to um live through Janet and and then have a time of processing after it takes it takes me a wee while for things to sink in and to process after and go, actually, yeah, that was a big deal. Because you filmed in parts of the city that you've actually never been in before in your life. Never. And that's because, explain why, because Janet is from a unionist Protestant community, very different from your own upbringing.

Yeah, so I grew up in, very similar to Janet in terms of social economic background, I guess, working class. But I came from West Belfast and that's where I live now with my family. And it's a beautiful part of the city. And so is East Belfast. And it wasn't even being on the streets that I had never been on before. I just never had any need to. I guess that shows the sort of the division you know the walls are still very present but um it was also the time of year we were

filming as well it was around the 12th of July you know normally I'm in Donegal with the rest of the west of Memphis on my holidays and um you know I'm laughing about it but actually there was something really special about being able to be in the city and just soaking up the atmosphere and the celebration of that culture, which we don't see very much. And I just wonder what the impact on you, how profound that was, immersing yourself in the other side of the other community, if you like. Well, kind of what was really profound was that there's no difference. Yeah. There was no difference. There was no difference. I keep going back to this scene in the Derry Girls where the blackboard's filled with all the differences between Catholic

and Protestant, which is absolutely hilarious. And the only difference really is that Janet probably keeps her toaster uncovered and I kept mine, it was a real eye opener for me. I have to say, you know, you think it wasn't until I moved away from Belfast that I realised, OK, so that wasn't normal, that separation, that kind of seeking out, trying to figure out where people are from to keep yourself safe. So that isn't normal. OK, you know, but it's the stories are being told much more now much more freely and much more funnily roshi and gallagher speaking to me yesterday that's all from me do join nula on monday when she'll be talking to the emmy nominated actress millie bobby brown about her

debut novel enjoy the rest of your weekend i hope it's warm where you are. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.