Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Ellie Simmonds, No-fault divorce, Educating Afghan girls and SMS education

Episode Date: April 8, 2022

We explore No Fault Divorce. The biggest reform of divorce law for 50 years comes into force- changing a law that dates back to Henry VIII. We hear from listener, Helen, currently going through a divorce.The Paralympic five time gold medallist Ellie Simmonds was born with achondroplasia, the most common type of dwarfism. A new drug currently being trialled in the NHS and now approved for use in the USA aims to help children with achondroplasia grow taller. In a new BBC documentary: A World without Dwarfism, Ellie raises the question if cutting edge medicine can stop disability in its tracks, should we use it?There are reports that women in Ukraine have been raped in front of their children, and Russian soldiers have filmed what they're doing. We discuss why rape in war happens, justice and trauma with Dr Jelke Boesten, Professor of Gender and Development at King's College London.It’s been over two weeks since the Taliban went back on their plans to allow girls in Afghanistan to return to school. Sara Wahedi, a tech entrepreneur explains her new idea of helping Afghan girls access education - through SMS on their phones.On Thursday, 100 individuals and their families wrote to the Health and Social Care Secretary, Sajid Javid, asking him to appoint Donna Ockenden to conduct an independent review of maternity services at Nottingham University Hospitals Trust. They are members of an online support group for those affected by unsafe maternity services and have shared harrowing accounts of their experiences. Sarah Hawkins talks about the death of their daughter, Harriet, on 17th April 2016 as a result of a mismanaged labour.Presented by Andrea Catherwood Producer: Surya Elango Editor: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. I'm Andrea Catherwood. This is the show where we offer you some of the best and must-hear interviews from across the week. In today's programme, we explore no-fault divorce. The biggest reform of divorce law for 50 years comes into force, changing a law that dates back to Henry VIII. We meet one listener, Helen, who called into our phone-in programme on Wednesday. You'll hear from Ellie Simmons, the Paralympic five-time gold medallist, on her new BBC documentary, A World Without Dwarfism, exploring the question that if cutting-edge medicine can stop disability in its tracks, should we embrace it?

In light of this week's news dominated by distressing pictures of dead bodies in the streets of Butcher, not far from Kiev in Ukraine, we discuss the use of rape and sexual assault as a weapon of war with Dr Yelka Bostan, a professor of gender and development from King's College London. We also meet Sarah Wahidi, an Afghan tech entrepreneur now living in America. In 2020, she created an app which delivers real-time security power and traffic alerts to Kabul. Now she's turning her attention to helping Afghan girls access education through their phones. And finally, we hear from Sarah Hawkins, one of the 100 people who, this week,

wrote to the Health and Social Care Secretary, Sajid Javid, asking him to appoint Donna Ockenden to conduct an independent review of maternity services at Nottingham University Hospitals Trust. Wednesday was an historic day in England and Wales in terms of divorce and how people end their marriages. The biggest reform of divorce law for 50 years came into force, changing a law that dated back to Henry VIII. No full divorce will change how couples split.

No longer will they have to separate for at least two years, increasing to five years if one party doesn't consent or blame one another to legally end their marriage, alleging adultery, unreasonable behaviour or desertion has taken place. Often people refer to this as a kind of blame game and even the most amicable splits can end in an acrimonious divorce. From Wednesday on, couples, both in marriages and civil partnerships, were able to apply jointly if they'd like and now they only have to state that the marriage has broken down irretrievably. The updated legislation aims to make separation less hostile for all parties involved, especially children. But will it work? Does it go far enough? We dedicated our programme on Wednesday to this. We asked you, the listeners,

to get in touch and tell us about your experiences of divorce and what difference no-fault divorce would have made to you. Here's Emma speaking to one of our callers, Helen, who is currently going through a divorce. Really fascinating points that have been made. I do have had a shame experience with the FDR, a lot of friction and not being heard. And there seems to be, I think the court process is hostile. It is toxic. I've been made to feel like a criminal going through it rather than any kind of help. And I think the solicitors weaponised any discussion

between partners, which I think is really sad. I'm just going to say if I may at this point when you talk about an FDR it's a financial dispute resolution hearing for those who aren't uh familiar no no please don't apologize I wanted to check myself sorry so do carry on it's been a toxic toxic system for you to go through I think so I mean I I do agree that a no-fault divorce in cases where there is no fault um where a couple have grown apart and that's in agreement I think so. I mean, I do agree that a no fault divorce in cases where there is no fault, where a couple have grown apart and that's in agreement, I think is a really, really good thing. And I think a lot of effort has obviously been put in to making that happen. And I think to try and keep things amicable, I think is fantastic. But when you're going through, I had a case of adultery and a runaway husband who literally got up, left and never came back. I'm so sorry. Yeah. And it's tough.

I can't begin to explain to you the pain and the fear and the worry and the anguish. And the whole process puts on you and you're expected to just sit down and discuss your finances as if none of that has happened. And I suppose what I'd like to say is that if the courts can spend so much effort in creating this fast process for a no-fault divorce,

can there not be some time put in to the person that is being betrayed and has been left to heal? Because I went to such a dark place and my son saying, where's dad? We didn't know where he was. He just went. And I just, I kind of just wanted to say,

preferably without tears, which I've failed. Don't worry. This is why I try. I don't know if you heard what I said right at the beginning. I just wanted to be aware of how painful this would be for so many to talk about. And I'm really, really grateful. We all are for you talking to us. And please do gather yourself or take a moment because this has been your life.

It has since 2019. On the 19th, he got up for an audition and left and never came back. And by the September, he was on the phone saying the house had to go on the market and had to be sold. And I wasn't ready. I was so raw. I was all over the place. And I just wish there was some law that was in place to say, if you have been at the butt of this, you're afforded some time to get over it. Because it's like PTSD. I had sleepless nights. I had worry.

I was going through menopause. The symptoms of that were exacerbated. I was having, oh, it was just awful. And all the time I was putting one face to my son to make it all okay. It's all right. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine.

And, you know, trying to not put any badness towards him about his dad and what had happened, which of course is difficult. And he was making up his own mind on this but i understand the need to speed things and ease things for marriages that have not worked i think that's admirable and it's great that they've done that but i think consideration needs to be afforded for those of us who you know speed is not the thing we need it's healing that we need before we're expected to just you know for me throwing away the man i loved and gave my life to to suddenly be landed with that and then told you know i'm a self-employed woman i i work from home my studio space is at home my storage space

is at home so i've been asking to try and get five% more than this statutory 50-50 split that they champion as being the resolution to all the problems. You can move on. It's fair. But it's not because my business is only – I can only achieve financial success if I don't have to pay for a studio space or storage space. So not only am I losing my home, my husband, my family, my financial security, I'm then being told I can't do my job or my job is going to be so impacted that I won't be able to work to the same degree. It sounds like today is not actually a day with this law change that you welcome in many ways because of the speed attached to it. Well, I think one of your callers said it doesn't go far enough. And I think that is the main reason. The main thing for me is that, you know, to get it through, to get it past. And I think for those people whose marriage has naturally come to an end and they don't want to be together anymore I think it's great I think if you can

separate without the animosity the process I'm going through now is horrendous it's so hostile it's so toxic and you know the ability for the solicitors to not lie, you and I would see it as a lie, but they turn it as interpretation. So the loopholes that they've managed to conjure to get as much money for their client as possible seems to be the main thrust in all this. Rather than saying, at the end of this, my barrister was lovely and he said, at the end of of this you're going to have to try and piece things together so try and talk to each other you know this is you know you're you were a family but my partner's team have been really aggressive accusatory I'm being made out to be the the sort criminal in this and I think if that blame and hostility and toxic space can be avoided, I think that has to be, you know, that has to be championed. That was Emma speaking to one of our callers, Helen, on our phone-in programme on Wednesday.

We've had so many responses from our listeners to our programme on no-fault divorce. Here are just a few. Alison said, I separated from my husband in 2018 and we have deliberately waited for no fault divorce to be brought in in order to keep things amicable. I'm very grateful that the law has moved in this direction. That said, I'm all too aware that things can go awry when it comes to finances. Helena, however, says today is a good news day. My mother said over 30 years ago that getting married should be more difficult and divorce much easier. And that was after going through a very disruptive divorce. The Paralympic five times gold medalist Ellie Simmons was born with achondroplasia, the most common type of dwarfism. A new drug currently being trialled

in the UK and that is now approved for use in the US and Europe aims to help children with achondroplasia grow taller. On Monday, she joined Emma to talk about her new BBC documentary, A World Without Dwarfism. Ellie explores the question that if cutting-edge medicine can stop disability in its tracks, should we embrace it? Emma started by asking Ellie what made her want to make this documentary. For me, when I found out about this drug and heard about it, saw it on newspapers and talked about it in the dwarfism community, you have that one side of the story and it's your own.

But when you start the journey, finding out from where I started and meeting so many different people individuals on the drug and on the trial in in Britain in on on it in America as it's been passed by the FDA so it's access to all in America where here it's just on trial people against it it's just yeah I think you can get a bigger picture and when people are watching it they can get their own and make their own decisions and be part of that journey. Whereas you put it on a piece of paper, it's, yeah, that story's not told. It aims to help children, this drug, grow taller. Exactly. Like you can see me, I'm small. That's the only issue really. But the opportunities that

I've had with dwarfism is I've been able to represent the country. I've been able to go to four Paralympic Games, many opportunities. And for me, it's like, why is this drug needed? There's so many other reasons. Why is Biomarin? Why is the companies? Why are they focusing their money, their efforts on something that doesn't need to be cured, when they can put it on other things such as wider issues in the world. But I suppose for some of those that you met, they felt, and the parents, that they could live a better life if they blended in more. And I'm paraphrasing some of what people said, but they haven't perhaps had the same experiences that you have had. Not without great work, I should say, from your perspective. But you understand, I suppose, from some people's point of view, they want that option. Yeah, no, and shouldn't we celebrate that there is that choice now? And yeah, like you said, I've been quite tunnel visions.

I've had very, since representing my country I've been known as Ellie Simmons the swimmer um represented um so many different yeah um the country and things and I'm celebrated for who I am where you see the likes of Will other individuals that still even to this day they're getting recognized they're getting pointed out they're getting photographed on the street and so there is that that there's that different side of the story in a sense. And I think hopefully watching this documentary, you see that. And yeah, maybe they see that parents who have found out their child has achondroplasia, this drug is a way of controlling that, a way of making sure that that child doesn't grow up with the pointing out, the laughing out.

And yeah, it's that control. And it is there. It's going to be, it's not going to be, it's a drug now that it's not going to go away. And I think one of the things that we need to do, and maybe that's a role on my shoulders and other individuals with dwarfism and different disabilities out there in the media, on the streets, is educating individuals that it's amazing to be different. And it would be so boring in society if we were all the same. And hopefully the likes of this documentary, that it can show that we are all different and we don't need bad name calling, horrible things.

Just let us get on in the world so i mean where it sounds like you've come down to is that you wish this wasn't necessary because you wish society would change enough to to allow people to be different and live a life free of taunts yeah exactly in the film one part of it you talked to your dad on the phone about how he would feel today if he was offered this option and this drug yeah yeah and it was great to see his side of the story it's like for your parents they're the ones that you look up to don't they they're the ones that you you trust and especially the likes of my mom and dad and my dad i speak to him for anything and all advice and it's a great to

hear his point of view but also and what what what did he say for those i know it's great to hear his point of view. And what did he say for those? I know it's not the whole film, but can you give us an insight into his response? Yeah, I think it's just, do you know, I can't remember what he said, but I think it was just more of the fact that it's there, it's choice, and I think I am what I am and I don't think he would have taken anything

or given me anything to change who I am. And I'm happy, I'm healthy, and that change who I am and I'm quite I'm happy I'm healthy and that's all yeah that's all I need really and when when we were younger as as individuals with dwarfism you go to the hospitals for checkups regularly you get the likes of when I was around as a kid and leg lengthening growth hormones like straightening all that type of things and this wasn't a choice at the time but when my parents got those those choices they they decided straight away not to take them and I'm I'm glad they didn't and what would you say to anyone listening who who is struggling at the moment to to go about their their daily business how have you coped what what toolkit did you rely upon well I'm I've

since a young age really I've been um brought up in a community like myself like individuals with dwarfism you've got the dwarf sports association you've got a restricted growth little people UK and having that community and identity really really helps because you've got people similar to you like you learn so so much like I remember when I was a kid I looked up to so many individuals who are older with dwarfism and like was like oh they can drive and education on like things like periods and just everyday stuff and it's that individuals to look up to and to talk about that that also came up didn't it with one woman the issue of personal hygiene tampons all sorts of problems that can sometimes come up and how to deal with one woman the issue of personal hygiene tampons all sorts of problems

that can sometimes come up and how to deal with that yeah yeah and i think that happens for all women doesn't it but also the likes of yeah like like myself with with short arms short legs you you need to to have someone to talk to about and how can you adapt and speaking to people about it is a great source of finding out for yourself isn't it and I think like we always say with with anything talking about it is is a real real help with with everything I mean this is what I do for a living yeah yeah I have a big old but this of course uh you and your your what we've known you for you have retired from yeah so uh are you are you missing it um no not really um no I don't I think you know when you don't miss it it's the right time to to call call it a day like I've had so many amazing opportunities and

I achieved what I did but now I'm yeah I don't miss the early starts I don't miss the wet hair the costumes and all that type of stuff and now it's like I'm 27 and I'm looking at all the other opportunities that I can take because yeah my my life and I knew what swimming was all about that was my comfort zone really and it's now like stepping away from that and finding out what I want to do next well and I suppose with this film as well finding your voice and talking about things with a bit perhaps with a bit more freedom I don't know yeah exactly and I think for me finding out for people to realize that I'm not just a swimmer I'm a human being I'm a woman too and in this documentary you see when I'm putting on the the wetsuit and I'm having the laugh and

that's me that's who I am that's my personality and hopefully people now can see me away from the sport and away from swimming yeah that's always going to be a massive part of my life and I love the sport and I love what it can give to people, not just on a Paralympic level, but all different levels. Swimming is a life skill, but now seeing the different side and the things like dwarfism and talking about things like that and other passions in my life and exploring those other opportunities.

Well, I wish you all the best with that. It's a very powerful film indeed. Do you still like swimming? Yeah, I do. Can you get in and actually enjoy yourself, or do you immediately start competing? No, I actually get pretty bored. And that's why it's nice to try a range of different sports,

and I'm loving like group exercises and opportunities like I did a boot class boot camp class last Monday and I was aching from Monday Tuesday and Wednesday and but yeah swimming I probably go like I haven't been actually for about two weeks I go for about 20 minutes and I have to get out because I'm so bored do people move away they're like I don't want to be I don't want to be competing I don't want to be in the lane next to you I chat and like I don't know I'm looking at from a't want to be in the lane next to you. No, no, no. But then I chat and like, I don't know, I'm looking at it from a different point of view. Now I look at people's strokes and I think,

oh, how can I improve their strokes? So sometimes at the end of the lane, I say, oh, just if you tilt your head a bit lower and don't go full reach and things like that. And they're like, oh, thank you ever so much. So I'm giving them like coaching tips just because now it's like, it's a way of entertaining myself while doing the sport is looking at different individual strokes and seeing how I can

prove it but for me what I realized is now um swimming and sport is is a mental health thing like it's for me when I when I've got loads of things on my mind and I go for a 20 minute swim and it really helps me think about things because you've got no phones. You've got no others. It's just you and your mind and your sport going up and down the pool. And yeah, it's sometimes pretty boring looking at the bottom of the pool. But it's so like, like the mind. Are you at the cold water swimming? Are you doing that as well or not? To be honest, no.

That's what I've been told. Anyone who likes swimming, everybody's going to do that. I know. Give me an indoor pool or give me the likes of the Indian Ocean, hot sea, hot ocean. But outdoor swimming, no, I'll leave it to those individuals. On that, we can fully agree. Ellie Simmons, thank you so much for talking to us. Emma speaking to Paralympic five times gold medalist Ellie Simmons. And Ellie's documentary, A World Without Dwarfism, is available on the iPlayer. In conflicts around the world, women and girls continue to face horrific sexual violence,

with rape repeatedly used as a weapon of war. That's what Liz Truss, the UK's Foreign Secretary, said five months ago. She went on, I'll make it my mission to work with countries and international partners to establish a new agreement to condemn them as a red line and end them for good. What we're hearing from Ukraine is distressing, if not surprising. On Monday, the news was dominated by pictures of dead bodies in the streets of Butcha, not far from Kiev. But throughout the conflict that's been going on for more than a month now, there have been reports that Russian soldiers have raped women. They filmed what they've done, and it's reported they even put some videos on porn sites. There have been reports of mothers being raped in front of their children,

from toddlers to teenagers, and of women being repeatedly raped. Some of these reports have been passed to war crimes investigators. One of the Ukrainian MPs who we spoke to last week, Maria Metentseva, said cases were being underreported. On Tuesday, Emma spoke to Dr Jelka Bustin, a professor of gender and development from King's College London. She started by asking her how rape and sexual assault are used in a war setting. So the idea of rape as a weapon of war really refers to practice of raping women for the purpose of destroying a community, no? So the idea that in patriarchal societies women are often seen as the property of men and women's sexuality is then often tied to communities or a family's honour. when you rape women, you not only destroy the women, but you destroy the men and the community,

which makes it so-called effective as a weapon. And because sexual violence is so very intimate and tied to reproduction, of course, it can be very harmful to communities' self-perception, creating fragmentation, shame, very long-term feelings of this concern. But at the same time, there's of course, this suggests that there's a strategy, an order from above, you know, and I think that there's plenty of evidence in wars around the world that there's feelings of entitlement and opportunity among combatants. This is then further encouraged by the idea that women in the enemy camp are available to be raped.

They're dehumanized after all. They can be killed. They can be raped. And a military culture which this encourages such sexualized violence. And are you saying it's both? Are you saying that there are instruction and also opportunists who would see it like that? No, I think that there's very little evidence in previous wars that there are actually instructions, or at least those are not, you can't really find them. But at the same time, while superiors may not order soldiers to rape, they won't discourage it either. So soldiers need to be trained to kill. And they need a strong group coherence amongst

themselves to be able to do that. Loyalty to each other, the army and the nation is key. And sexual desire and sexual complicity can then be an effective way of creating such loyalty among soldiers, among combatants. So that's how it comes up. It's not necessarily in order from what we have seen in previous wars and what we know, but it's part of the demoralisation, the shame, the conquering, and also, as you say there, the bonding of soldiers together to be on their mission, as it were.

Absolutely. And what is going on with soldiers who are capable of doing that is a big question, I think. And I think we need to contextualise that. So it's not only the enemy population that is being dehumanised, but the soldiers to a certain extent as well. Both killing and raping are very physically and emotionally time a little bit worse in what the soldiers are capable of, I think. Part of what's happening at the moment is President Zelensky trying to get the world to listen, to hear about the escalation of the violence. And part of this will be about the collecting of evidence. How difficult is it to show this? We're now much more consciously aware of what's going on

and having much more attention for sexual violence makes a difference. The fact that there is a phone line in Ukraine itself to take reports of rape is really important. Witness testimonies is important. Physical investigations, medical investigations early on is really important. Witness testimonies is important. Physical investigations, medical investigations early on is really important. So all that documentation that can be gathered now is really important for any future accountability. Absolutely. A message also about men being raped as well. That is something else to flag. Is that something your studies have shown you?

Yes, absolutely. That happens. It's even more difficult to uncover, particularly because it's more secretive even. Men don't tend to report rape, but it does happen. Absolutely. And of course, across all of that is the fact that many will never be reported due to those who have been attacked and what you first started

to talk about, which was shame. Absolutely. Many will not be reported because it's very often reporting itself is very difficult and it's not always clear what will be the outcome of reporting so many people will just take their sorrows with them and that has major consequences generational consequences as one of the writers already said no women get pregnant girls get pregnant and they might have children born of rape which really has long-lasting generational effects, not only on the individuals, but on society at large, of course. Emma speaking to Dr Ialka Bustin, Professor of Gender and Development from King's College London. A statement from the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office said,

reports emerging from Ukraine of rape and sexual abuse are deeply disturbing. This behaviour against women is abhorrent. The UK continues to act decisively with its allies to punish Russia for its unprovoked aggression against Ukraine, and we will do all we can to bring the perpetrators of war crimes, including sexual violence, to justice. Now, it's been more than two weeks since the Taliban went back on their promise to allow Afghan girls to return to education. Schools were set to open nationwide after months of restrictions after the Taliban seized power in August.

But at the last minute, the education ministry abruptly announced girls' secondary schools would stay shut. It's reminiscent of what happened the last time the Taliban were in control of the country in the 1990s. Some girls were in tears as parents and students reacted with anger and disappointment to the last-minute move. When Sarah Wahedi saw the news, she knew she wanted to help. She's from Afghanistan, she's a tech entrepreneur now living in America and currently studying human rights and data science at Columbia University. In 2020, she created an app which delivers real-time security, power and traffic alerts to Kabul's residents. Now, she's turning her attention to helping Afghan

girls access education through their phones. I spoke to Sarah Wahidi on Friday's programme and I started by asking her what her reaction was when the news broke that girls would not be returning to school. The day that the news broke out, I mean, it was just a flood of emotions. Girls that I know that are in Afghanistan are just sobbing, just in tears, devastated, and still are. And it's just been a shock for everyone that there is no solution at hand and there is no direct understanding as to why the Taliban has reneged on this. There's always a new excuse.

And in hindsight, I mean, there's no sustainable solution. So they're very compulsive in their decision making. So a sustainable solution needs to be designed as soon as possible for these girls who've already missed so much school, not only because of the war, but also because of COVID. Indeed. And we know that they're rather impervious to international pressure. You, however, have actually managed to come up with something practical that you feel can help girls. It's an SMS-based tech system. Just tell me a bit about it. Right. So this is something that caught my eye a year ago or so when I was thinking about ways to expand technology in Afghanistan, even when the government was still in power. And I saw this interesting example from Kenya, Ghana, and Cote d'Ivoire, which is from a nonprofit called Enaise Education,

where they provide simple mobile technology, and they've built an educational ecosystem, a very robust one, where during COVID they provided offline education for over 10 million students in these African countries. And it stuck with me. And when I heard this news, I came back to it. And there's obviously a lot of pushback. I think that anything involving a phone these days, especially in countries like Afghanistan, which are so volatile, is something where people have questions. But I've always believed that

sometimes you have to move one step back to move forward. And if that means we're going back to the early 2000s of using SMS, well, that just needs to be the case. So this is SMS text messages, just to make it clear, this isn't people using smartphones and accessing the internet, because just not enough people in Afghanistan, not enough girls are going to have access to that kind of technology. Exactly. These are SMS texts. You only need a GSM network. They're very, very basic. You can use a very basic Nokia mobile phone with no smartphone.

It's just a mobile network. So these are the kind of phones that a lot of people in the UK would have remembered having in the kind of 2000s. Yes. They're called bricks, which is a little bit unfair, perhaps. But what kind of access would girls have to those at the moment across Afghanistan? I mean, have you got the numbers? Yes, I do.

And in 2018, you know, again, really exciting is we have about 16 million registered mobile phones. Those are just the brick phones that you're talking about, the basics. So there's a lot of potential. And I've mentioned this before to many people who have said, well, it's not going to get to every girl. Just that access, we're looking at about two thirds of the population. So it's not like 10 percent. It's huge. So, you know, it's not a small number. You know, it's a huge number that we're talking about here.

Could it be dangerous? Is there a danger, Sarah, that the Taliban could decide that they're going to pull networks or indeed punish girls for accessing this? My concern would have been greater if it was online, if it was an app, if it would have. I mean, I have an app right now and that one provides, as you said, alerts. And I'm always worried that they're going to cut the internet. Well, with GSM networks, it's very difficult. I mean, especially in rural areas, just to cut a GSM network would be – it would take a lot. The only way is to cut electricity lines. But I think that to cut – I mean, the population of Afghanistan is 39 million. So to cut that amount of electricity and mobile networks is just, it would just be a horrible decision on their part.

I don't think they would just do it for girls' education. So I don't see it as an immediate concern. Sarah, tell me a little bit about yourself, because I know that you're now in New York, but you grew up in Afghanistan? Yes, I was in Afghanistan up until six and then moved to Canada and stayed there until I finished about a year of university and then moved back to Afghanistan. And I know that you have been highlighted as one of Time magazine's 2021 Next Generation Leaders. You were working in Afghanistan for President Ghani. Yes. Yes, I was. Yeah. And I was, I mean, it was a desk job. I was working specifically on social development policy and projects. And it was an amazing experience. And I do get the brunt of anger these days, even though I had a very small position. I think I've talked to the president

once. But, you know, for me, I think I think people don't understand me for us, especially working for the president. It's devastating. I mean, we believed in this government and we gave our all into the civil service and to be left like this is for us most painful because we gave our lives, our time for this government and for the notion of democracy. But, you know, I've always been very passionate about how to look at Afghanistan, not just in the short term. You know, people talk to me a lot about, you know, civic technology and using technology for solutions. And why am I doing this? And why not focus on, you know, immediate solutions? Because

I'm trying to build a status quo. I'm trying to build a behavior within my community of, you know, there are things that you can fight for. There are things that I can introduce to our society that when another government comes, you'll know what to fight for. I mean, emergency access of information, information that you don't have to second guess, like in the UK that, you know, you have your emergency services that doesn't depend on which government is in power. It's just something that is a fundamental right of uk citizens so africans don't have that but but if i just introduce the idea they'll say oh okay so there's something called emergency reliable information i want that for my next government so whatever i do it's not about

you know everyone needs to have this app or everyone needs to have this tech solution. It needs to be a talking point. And that's my passion is just introducing things that the world has and Afghanistan should have as well. And I think that this is a very long-term mission that I have, but it's one worth fighting. I've seen already, you know, I've been reaping the benefits of the security app and how it's changing people's minds and how they converse about what the government should do for them. So just even that planting that little seed of expectation for me is everything. That was Sarah Wahidi speaking to me on Friday's programme. A week ago, we devoted a whole programme to the long awaited and landmark Ockenden Report into maternity services at

Shrewsbury and Telford Hospitals NHS Trust in what has been described as the biggest maternity scandal in the NHS's history. We spoke to the midwife Donna Ockenden about her key findings. She concluded 201 babies and nine mothers may have survived if the trust had provided better care, learned from mistakes and, crucially, listened to women. Well, on Thursday, 100 more people wrote to the Health and Social Care Secretary, Sajid Javid, asking him to appoint Donna Ockenden to conduct an independent review of maternity services at Nottingham University Hospitals Trust. They also approached Donna Ockenden to conduct an independent review of maternity services at Nottingham University Hospitals Trust. They also approached Donna Ockenden directly. This large group met and

bonded online and in real life through sharing harrowing accounts of their experiences. Emma spoke to Sarah Hawkins, who, with her husband Jack, became whistleblowers about the problems at this trust following the death of their daughter Harriet in April 2016 as a result of a mismanaged labour. Emma started by asking Sarah what she's asking for in light of the Ockenden report. We need Donna Ockenden to come to Nottingham. When I looked through the Shrewsbury report it was was absolutely harrowing. And for every single example I read of a baby death or a mother being harmed, I can think of a name in Nottingham. I can think of someone we're in contact with. You, when going into labour, weren't able to be admitted for some time. Is

that right? So the day after my due date, I started contractions. Those contractions never stopped. And they went on for six days and over those six days I had two admissions um and I was sent home um I'd made 13 13 contacts with the hospital and every time I was told I wasn't wasn't late in labor um until the last admission um well I'd phoned the midwife up a short time before and I said, I don't think I can do this. Like I felt like a complete failure. I said, you know, I'm just having the most awful pain. These contractions aren't stopping. And she told me that I wasn't in labour. I wasn't in established labour. I was telling her the opposite of what women in labour normally tell her. There was no point in coming in.

Frankly, she just made me feel absolutely awful. A short time after that, something started to hang out of me. And then I was told to come in. I was walking down the corridor in absolutely excruciating pain, now considering this is six days after starting my contractions, and she shouted down the corridor to me is it still hanging out of you so I burst into tears no one got up and helped me there were three people sat at the desk got to the desk midwife took the notes and said oh we were

having bets that Jack was a doctor because of his manner on the phone I was then ushered into a birth sanctuary suite which it should have been an obstetric emergency um the the midwife said she got Harriet's heartbeat she didn't because Jack was taking my pulse but at the time we didn't we just thought it was an error nothing significant um time passed midwives passed they said we can see the baby's head um the baby's about to come then before I got into the water bath they um tried to take Harriet's heartbeat. They couldn't. They called the doctor.

Doctor drained my bladder, two litres of my bladder, and then he scanned and said, I'm sorry, your baby's dead. And you still had to keep going, didn't you? I was then left, because of some communication error, for nine hours trying to give birth to a dead baby. I'm so sorry, Sarah. Yeah, I felt like I was dying and I didn't really care. It's unimaginable. And you then did have to go through with that. And I know that you

do have some images from that time of you being able to hold her and and have that time together and the thing that was so difficult was she was a fully healthy full-term baby and looked absolutely perfect she just looked like she was asleep and if I just shut my eyes for one minute I just wish that she'd be alive you know she doesn't look any different it was just and as soon as we were told, even before she was delivered, that she was dead, we knew there were problems. We said, you've messed up. You've got to listen to us. You've messed up. You were told that your daughter had died of an infection. Yeah. How did you know that was inaccurate? How did you know to push and to fight?

Well, Jack's speciality as an acute medic is infection there was no isolated bug so we we turned up to a meeting a routine stillbirth meeting and they presented this completed investigation that we didn't even know that had happened they had the wrong place of delivery they didn't have i had to use my phone bill to prove the 13 contacts they didn't have any of them. And Jack was sat there saying, but it's not infection. And the clinicians, the obstetrician was saying, but it is. We're like, well, we know it's not.

And we felt like we were going crazy. We honestly felt like we were being blamed. We were those mad, grieving parents just saying what? And our main concern is we were clinicians and we knew that. How many people are out there blaming themselves? You did, if I was to, I mean, I wish to fast forward, but just to get to this point, because you are now leading the fight for this review to happen within the trust where you were affected and working. You then did get the admission of guilt eventually with negligence and a payout.

Yeah, eventually. I mean, it's been a very difficult fight. We had to, obviously, the trust didn't classify her as a serious incident, which it should have been. We then pushed for an external investigation, which we got. However, in between the draft and the the actual release of the report the lead author was employed by the trust and the report changed um you just honestly you can't

imagine the corruption so we then had to push for another external report which finally admitted that Harriet's death was almost certainly preventable. But it's just all those years of fighting and, you know, being blamed. What toll has that taken on you both? Oh, it's just, honestly, I was saying the other day, if someone would have told me Harriet died six days ago, I would believe it. Well, having been able to grieve, you know, not being able to have her funeral for two years

in case they tried to blame her again. And, you know, three years later, Winter Andrews died because of neglect and Sarah was in labour for six days. You know, all this changed that. Apparently it happened after Harriet's death. Nothing had changed. And as soon as we made contact with Gary and Sarah, we just thought it's still going. And the ball is we've now picked up momentum.

And, you know, I just want everyone out there, even if their baby is alive and they had an extremely traumatic birth, you know, that just they need to come forward because the next mother might not be so lucky. Everyone's trauma should be validated. Thank you very much for talking to us, to all of us. And I did have to say this. I did spy a very sweet looking little one in your video call window before. And I believe that's Lottie. It is. I'm just saying my husband's out there pretending to be a frog.

So if you hear random noises, that's us trying to keep her quiet. How old is Lottie? She's two and a half now. She's amazing. She looks amazing. And, you know, getting her daddy to be a frog is a good morning's work in my book. Emma speaking to Sarah Hawkins about expanding the Donna Ockenden Review to maternity services at Nottingham University Trust. Well, a spokesperson for Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust said, we are truly sorry that we failed

Mr and Mrs Hawkins and baby Harriet in the care delivered in 2016 and are doing everything in our power to ensure patients using our maternity services are as safe as possible. We are cooperating fully with the ongoing independent review and work closely

with local families to learn where we can make improvements at an individual level as well as develop better services for the future. Well that's all for today. Thank you so much for joining me this afternoon and don't forget to join Emma live at 10am on Monday morning if you can where we'll be discussing The Cher Show, a new musical capturing the life and meteoric career of the goddess of pop, the one and only Cher. Have a lovely rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.