Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Emeli Sandé, Abi Morgan, Sophie Willan

Episode Date: May 14, 2022

Emeli Sandé is one of Britain’s most successful songwriters - with 19 million singles sold; including three number one singles, six million albums and four BRIT awards. Emeli joins Emma to discuss her music and career.How are disabled children being affected by the war in Ukraine? There are claims that thousands have been forgotten and abandoned in institutions unable to look after them. The human rights organisation, Disability Rights International, has carried out an investigation. Their Ukraine Office Director, Halyna Kurylo joins Emma.‘Alice’s Book’ by Karina Urbach tells the story of Karina's grandmother Alice Urbach. Before the Second World War Alice wrote a cookbook called Cooking the Viennese Way! - but when books by Jewish authors couldn't be distributed, Alice was taken off it. Karina talks about her family history, intellectual theft by the Nazis and her mission to restore Alice Urbach’s name to her cookbook.Abi Morgan is a BAFTA and Emmy-award winning playwright and screenwriter whose credits include The Iron Lady, Suffragette and The Hour. She has now written her first book - This Is Not A Pity Memoir - about an extraordinarily tumultuous period in her and her family's life.Last weekend the Baftas saw Sophie Willan, the actress and creator of Alma’s Not Normal, take home an award for best female performance in comedy. The sitcom is based on Sophie’s own experience of growing up in care, and focuses on her relationship with the women in her family. Sophie dedicated her win to her grandmother, Denise Willan, who sadly passed away half-way through filming the show.Watching Eurovision tonight? Two hundred million people are expected to watch it, live from Turin. Representing the UK this year is Sam Ryder. He's doing well at the moment and is second favourite to win behind Ukraine. The UK really hasn’t done very well over recent years, but twenty-five years ago we won it with Katrina and The Waves and Love Shine a Light. Katrina joins Anita.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Now we know life can be busy and hectic, so this is your chance to hear all the best and must-hear interviews from across the week just gone. Coming up, the extraordinary story behind the award-winning screenwriter Abbey Morgan's new memoir, we explore the impact of war on vulnerable and disabled children in Ukraine,

and Sophie Willan, the creator of Alma's Not Normal, on why she dedicated her newly won BAFTA to her late grandmother. But first, Emily Sandé is one of Britain's most successful songwriters. Her debut album was a bestseller, spending 10 weeks at number one. Her hit singles include Heaven, Read All About It and Next to Me. And she's received four Brit Awards, including Best Female twice.

In 2012, Emily performed in both the opening and closing ceremonies of the London Olympics. And she's performed at the White House. Now she's back with a new album and single, There Isn't Much. Earlier this week, Emma met Emily and started by asking about the importance of music in her own life.

You know, music gave me this very magic power when I was younger and allowed me to express myself but also to escape in many ways. And I think music has got this incredible power, you know, to heal us, to lift us and take us somewhere else, even if it's just for three minutes. But it's I find music to be this interesting world between earth and heaven. It's kind of this bridge that we have.

And I always feel that, you know, melodies come from somewhere else. They come from a very spiritual realm for me. So music is this kind of in-between land. And I love being there. And you actually have also talked a lot about, you know, your faith and belief as well and trying to figure that out. Yeah, music's always a spiritual experience for me, whether I'm listening to it,

but especially when I'm creating it. You kind of have to go in a bit of a trance, I think, to get the best songs and step out of the way of that channeling. And yeah, I mean, that might sound exaggerated, but that's how I feel when I make music. Even when I was learning to play piano, I was teaching myself at the beginning, but somehow I just, you know, my hands felt guided and I just have a very special relationship with melody. It's quite an intimate one. And I think

for any musician out there, it's a very special feeling when you're kind of entrenched in the melody. How do you feel that so many of us associate you with something like the Olympics? I mean, it was a great honour and it was a great privilege to perform there, not only to represent the country, but also to sing that song in particular. You know, Abide With Me is one that... That was what you did in the opening? In the opening, yes. And it's a song that means so much to so many people. It was a favourite of my granddad's as well. So I did feel the pressure of delivering a performance that was worthy of that song. And then to close the Olympics with one of my own songs, Read All About It. Yeah,

I mean, what an honour. It wasn't even planned for me to be in first, you know, for me to be in the opening and the closing. But it just worked out that way. And I look back on those memories with great joy. Yeah, I bet. I think it's just it's not just about the Olympics at that point, I suppose. It was the country also feeling who are we? What do we stand for? Yes.

And obviously, Danny Boyle had pressure on him to try and bring that to the fore. A friend of mine actually said to me recently that she only rewatched the whole thing recently. It was replayed. And it's just amazing to look back on like that and be a part of that, I imagine. Yeah. I mean, we're planning it for about, well, I got involved maybe six months before the event. And I remember they brought us to the secret bunker where they had a model of what he was planning to do and he was so passionate, he was such a loving man

and I just thought they wanted to play Heaven because he played me the set but what he managed to do to represent what the UK stands for I thought was really beautiful and it made me very proud to be a part of it. And when you come to picking a song for a fundraiser like for Ukraine, how do you go about that? I try to pick a song that is uplifting and can inspire hope because I think that's what that whole concert was really about. Coming together and finding unity through music.

So we are in very dark times, you know, especially the people of Ukraine, they're going through so much. So I wanted to choose a song which would be uplifting, but also recognizes that we are in difficult times. And I hope that Brighter Days does that. Yes. And it connects people, I suppose, in a way to people if they can't do very much themselves. I've got to ask, is it right your mum sent CDs of your songs to One Extra? Yes. My mum, my original best manager, she has, you know, she doesn't often get the credit because often I talk about my dad introducing me to music. But when I was in Glasgow, when they dropped me off to study medicine, my mum said, you know, we're really proud of you. Well done. But don't forget that you're a musician. And I always remember that as she was kind of handing her daughter over to the student halls.

And she said, I remember you're a musician. So I had recordings from when I'd first been coming to London, which she sent in. So this is my daughter. Check her out. And she actually got me my first play on it. It was a Ras Kwame on one extra. He used to play homegrown talent. So she really pushed for me and she made sure that I didn't forget who I was.

I've just got this image of her, you know, writing the letter, sticking the label on, sending it off. Yeah, exactly. That's what it was. That's awesome. Yeah. And I know it's been written about and been talked about that you stopped training to be a doctor. Yeah. But were they disappointed by that or did they just know you were going to do this? And how do you feel about it all these years on? I mean, I mean I think they I mean I would have loved to finish the course but it's

so long that would have been another two three years um but and I did you know I loved it so much but they were I guess they were a little disappointed but I think they knew that all I'd cared about since I was seven years old was being a musician. So they knew that deep in my heart, that's what I really wanted to do. And when I got the opportunity to be published and to move to London, they knew that I wasn't just doing it on a whim. So they were supportive. And I don't know, when I look back, especially during the past few years through the pandemic, I have thought, would I have been more use as a doctor would I have been able to give more with medical knowledge but that has inspired me to try put that healing energy into the music that's interesting so that was on your mind yeah in fact I've just got in touch with a couple of

guys they came to the album release the other day from med school and a guy I was studying with he's called Jonathan Fent we were both in the neuroscience you know course together. Big up to Jonathan. Yeah big up to Jonathan and but he was he was the one he was one of the people that really inspired me to go after the music because we'd sit in the lab and I was actually I don't understand this how this that and the other and he said you know you really have to be passionate and go for what you want and he said it's really inspiring to me you going for your music, because I was doing these little shows in between. And I've just heard that he won a gold medal for neurology.

So I'm just, it was amazing to be around people that were so dedicated to medicine, so passionate. And in a strange way, it inspired me to go for what my passion really was. The singer and songwriter Emily Sandé there, and there isn't much, is out now. Now, it's been over 80 days since Russia invaded Ukraine. The country and its people are trying to survive, mourn the dead and care for the young, old and sick.

But how are disabled children being affected by the war in Ukraine? There are claims that thousands have been forgotten and abandoned in institutions unable to look after them. The human rights organisation Disability Rights International has carried out an investigation and found children with severe disabilities tied to beds in overrun children's homes unable to cope. The director of its Ukraine office, Helena Karolo,

spoke to Emma on Wednesday. She's been visiting the institutions where these children have been abandoned. These children were left behind at least twice in their lifetime because in Ukraine we do have a legacy of Soviet era, a vast system of bleak and segregated institutions. So the children with disabilities, even when they have parents, usually end up being taken care of and quote unquote being taken care of in these institutions in that completely segregated and group setting that is not appropriate to provide any kind of rehabilitation

or habilitation for them. So they were in institutions all over Ukraine. When the war started, some of these institutions, and I say some because some are still in the hot spots and occupied area. But some of them moved from east to the west of the country while partially being moved abroad. So one institution, for example, was split in two. Less disabled children were evacuated abroad together with the staff members. And then the more complex needs kids were left in institutions in the West without their staff members. So if you think about the institutions before the war, when they had one direct care staff person per 10 to 12 bedridden children. I mean, and they are only bedridden because there is not enough stuff to take care of them.

Now, when they received children from the East, the evacuees, now they are even more under pressure and under load. So even though there is a heroic effort going on by the staff of this institution to take care about more children than they are used to, and sometimes to take care of the children that have disabilities they have not seen before. for women with very mild or no intellectual disabilities. Their most disability, mostly the reason for their institutionalization was that they were of Roma origin, which is like unprecedented. And so the directors and staff are used to this type of women and well, residents.

And now they get 22, I'm talking about one specific institution, 22 very difficult children who are also traumatized and stressed from moving all the way across the country. If you look at the map of Ukraine, where Donetsk is and where Zakarpattia is, it's like the biggest stretch of them from east to west. What are you and your colleagues calling for at Disability Rights International? Well, first of all, it's like this is the most important. We need to think about these children

and adults with complex disabilities from rights perspective, not from the pity perspective, because what the system is doing right now and the humanitarian relief what is doing right now, they are dehumanizing them and think that only medicine and diapers are needed while we are calling for family placements for each child and for each child with disabilities and of course full integration to community of adults with disabilities we believe that in the new ukraine the new democracy every child was regardless of the difficulty of their disability, should be included, fully included in the community. And the services should be built around the child.

Because there was a reform pre-war happening. It was a de-socialisation reform, which we were part of since 2015. And the reform itself left behind the children with most complex disabilities so that would be what you would talk about for not necessarily the future but but how you think things should be different and should have been different already yes however however even now i mean even now we do not we cannot um while we still have to care about the children right there in the institutions that are left behind there are are not so many of them because there are about 2,000 of children only

with this high, high care needs. And I believe that the humanitarian relief should not be bring diapers into the institution or not even increase the staff numbers in the institutions because institutions themselves are disabling and abusive so um there is a need to to go before emergency family placements because this mechanism within you within ukraine within ukraine or abroad i mean the only reason these children were not evacuated abroad and placed into better care because it was too difficult to move them not impossible but difficult so there was no but nobody willing to accompany well indeed i'm also minded to mention last month you know the care because it was too difficult to move them, not impossible, but difficult. So there was nobody

willing to accompany them. Well, indeed, I'm also minded to mention last month, you know, the United Nations put it at 2.7 million disabled Ukrainians, including children, their report said, are trapped and abandoned in desperate circumstances as war rages on. So a broader picture, of course, not just talking about the homes that you've been into, but it has been an important point, but hasn't been made, perhaps, in the most urgent of ways, which is what you're arguing. Right. I mean, usually these children are invisible. They were invisible before the war, and now they're even more invisible. The war exacerbated everything. It brought out the good and the bad in the people and systems. And those who were marginalized are even more marginalized now. Those who were vulnerable added multiple layers of vulnerability. And we believe that there's

this need to make the voice of these children heard. Do you think that your report could do that? Have you seen a your report could do that? Have you seen a response from the Ukrainian people? Of course, you know, so many of them under duress and trying to survive at the moment. Well, yes, we see the response, but we see mostly the response from abroad, from foreigners, who are ready to help and come in and volunteer and do anything they need to do.

For Ukrainians, I believe that it's more difficult. We don't want to criticise the government in the wartime because it is a problem, but it is not. It's war at the moment, yes. It's wartime. They're doing everything they can. But the most important right now is to make sure these children are not invisible to Ukrainians as well. And this is the first stage.

And then we can already talk about providing better care for them. Otherwise, we will just end up, even when the war ends, we will end up with other children being in the same circumstances. Because these institutions were not ready for anything,

no contingency plans. They were not ready for evacuation, for example, in the situation of natural disaster or anything. That was the director of the Ukraine Office for Disability Rights International, Helena Carollo. Still to come on the programme, how the Nazis stole my grandmother's cookbook. The historian Karina Erbach on her family's 80-year journey to restore their legacy. Now, if you and your children are in the midst of exam season, you may be wondering how to best support them.

And if that's the case, you can head to our website now to read our new article with advice and tips from Dr Jane Gilmore. She's a consultant clinical psychologist at Great Ormond Street Hospital, so she knows what she's talking about. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any anytime that suits you by downloading the free daily podcast. You can find it once you finish listening to this programme on BBC Sounds. Now, in Alice's book, How the Nazis Stole My Grandmother's Cookbook, the historian Carina Urbach tells the story of her grandmother, Alice Urbach, who wrote the best-selling cookbook, Cooking the Viennese Way in pre-war Austria.

Through her own research, Karina highlights the intellectual theft carried out by the Nazis so that they could profit from Jewish authors, including her grandmother. And 80 years on, Karina has been able to restore Alice Erbach's name to her cookbook.

When I spoke to Karina on Friday morning, I started by asking her when she first became aware of this remarkable story. Well, it was very confusing for me as a child to grow up in Germany and there was this American grandmother and I was always told that she was Viennese but then had to go to England during the war and now she was in America. And that was really never explained.

Why was she as a Viennese living in America? What had she done in England during the war? So there were all these riddles. And the biggest riddle was the two cookbooks. I mean, we had these two cookbooks at home. And one had her name on the cover, Alice Orbach, and the other one had a man's name, Rudolf Roesch. So I never really understood what had happened. And of course, in every family, there are lots of anecdotes and few facts.

So one day, my American cousin gave me lots of letters and tapes and said, well, you solved this. And because I'm married to a fellow historian, he's a Russianist, Jonathan Haslam, and he is super at finding back doors. So he helped me to find lots of wonderful archives in London and in Washington and Vienna. And I finally solved the riddle. It's what a wonderful thing to be able to do and then and write about it. So let's go back in time because you take us back to Alice's childhood, because I think it's really important to understand the context of where she grew up and what what sort of family she was born into and what life was like for her in the 1920s. Yes, she was this very spoiled daughter, the dreamy daughter of a very rich, wealthy, textile millionaire. And of course, the family lost everything after the First World War. But

it was a Jewish upbringing in Vienna. And because of her father, she met all these very famous people you know Freud and his daughter Anna Freud and and she met Schnitzler and the author of Bambi Felix Seiden and all these famous people and so she had this very wonderful upbringing and then of course after the first world war she lost everything. She was a widow with two little children. Her husband had been absolutely useless. He had been gambling away her whole inheritance. And she didn't have much confidence. She was on her own now. And she thought she wasn't good at anything. But she had this one passion, and that was cooking, and that rescued her. And how unusual was it for a woman of her background to have a passion for

cooking? Did women of that class cook? No, because she always, since the age of five, she wanted to become a cook. And of course, her family thought, oh, no, you know, a girl from a good family doesn't become a cook. You know, that was looked down upon. And she dreamt of opening a restaurant or a tea shop or a bakery. And there's a very famous lady in Vienna, Anna Sacha, the Sacha Torte, the Sacha Tart is named after. And of course, Alice wanted to become one of these women, you know. OK, so she had no chance. But of course, after the First World War, everything was so. I mean, Vienna was in Austria, the whole of Austria was, of course, in a horrible depression. And women needed to work and needed to become inventive.

And she became an entrepreneurish kind of person overnight. She started a catering business that was completely unusual that um the papers called it oh alice orba is bringing americanization to austria you know now do you deliver menus and whole four course meals to homes and i mean that was that was. But she did that and suddenly became very confident. She was delivering food to people's homes. Yes. So ahead of her time and started a cookery school that became very successful because people signed up for her classes, didn't they? That's right. Yes. So she had a wonderful, very famous people coming to

her cooking school, but also working class girls who wanted to become chefs and improve their chances in life. And so she had all these famous Austrian ballet dancers, the daughter of the British ambassador learned cooking at her school. So, yeah, she was terribly proud of her famous customers. And so she already had a cookbook out. And I noticed in the book something that really stuck out for me, and this was pre the breakout of the Second World War,

was her second cookbook. There were no photographs of her in the cookbook. Is that right? Well, in her first cookbook, that was in 1925. There were absolutely no photographs. And then, yes, you're absolutely right. And when she wrote her big, you know, 500 pages cookbook, which is also not just recipes.

It's about home economics, what the Americans call home economics. So it's about how to run your house and how to do healthy cooking, etc. So in that book, there were only photos of her hands and never of her face. And that was very odd. I mean, I thought that was weird because there were other photos of her students. They were photographed completely. But I'm not sure whether that was due because she had a very prominent Jewish nose. So whether that was because of her face looking too Jewish.

Interesting. So people would not have bought it? Or just it tells you, puts you into the time of Austria at the time? Yeah, I think so. I mean, there was, of course, great anti-Semitism in Austria. But her publishing house was a German publishing house. So that might have been the reason as well that they didn't want a Jew. I mean, her surname, Urbach, is not a very Jewish surname.

I mean, Jewish Urbachs and non-Jewish Urbachs. So the surname didn't give it away. She was actually asked to sign a contract giving up the rights to the book, wasn't she? Why was that? Yes, because in March 1938, of course, the Nazis marched into Austria. And from then on, she wasn't an Austrian anymore. She was German, you know, all the Austrians became Germans. And that meant that the Nuremberg racial laws were applied to her. And from that moment onwards, she was in great danger. And her son was thrown out of the university and her brother was arrested.

So, yes, she was forced by her publishing house to sign a declaration. And the declaration included not just giving away the rights to that book, but to other books that she had already submitted. They hadn't been published yet. And she gave up everything. She had to sign this declaration. So you talk about in the book how her books were aryanized after the publisher was no longer able to distribute books written by Jewish authors.

Tell us more about that. Yes, that's something that hadn't been researched before. And, of course, I thought, oh, perhaps she was the only victim of this crime. And no, I was wrong. And I have started a new field of research now. I'm quite happy about that. And because I found so many more cases of Jewish nonfiction authors who lost their authorship, and the publishing houses were very clever. I mean, in Alice's case, for example, they gave the book to a man. Now it was this guy called Rudolf Roesch who was publishing it. Now they changed a few things.

For example, they changed the introduction where Alice talks about how cosmopolitan food is. You know, they Germanized that completely. And they also erased all the Jewish-sounding recipes. For example, she had an omelette Rothschild, and that was now called omelette nature or something, you know. So everything that was a bit Jewish in the book was taken out. And, yeah, and they did that with other Jewish nonfiction books as well.

Medical books, legal books. And yes, I've found so many new cases. And I hope that, yeah. I found all of that absolutely fascinating. And when you talk about how there were some books that, you know, of course, if you don't know who's written it, you can just claim it as your own. The amount of plagiarism that may have would have gone on. Yes, that's right. I mean, some people built their whole careers on these books. I mean, in the case of one of the medical books, the guy who took over the medical book from a Jewish author became very famous in post-war Germany and claimed to have written all these great medical books.

And the actual authors, both of them committed suicide in 1942 because their life's work was taken away from them, of course. Absolutely heartbreaking. And then Alice's story in 1938, she moves to Britain. And you've got this great fact in this. I'm sure lots of our listeners are aware of it. But in between 1933 and 1939, 20,000 Jewish women fled to Britain and they had to take up jobs as domestic servants. And of course, Alice is very well placed to become a cook. But before we find out about where she was cooking and which stately home and who she was cooking for, because all of this is fascinating. What did she make of the British

cuisine? Do we know? Yeah, well, okay. To be honest, she wasn't very impressed. You know, she saw it was pretty bad. But she was so thankful that Britain took her in, you know, she, she knew that she couldn't complain about it so she shut up shut up about it most of the time but yes um she later on said well it wasn't very good and um the problem is of course you had great cuisine in the 19th century the victorians were very good cooks but unfortunately um you lost that um gift between the wars i think and now of course it's back but um yes she was pretty desperate coming to britain and the ingredients course it's back but yes she was pretty desperate coming to Britain and the ingredients were rubbish she thought and so she wasn't happy about that. Thankfully we've got

you could get everything now so it took a while but we've got that. Eventually she moves to the US. Yeah. What happens when she contacts the publisher to say this is my work? Yeah that's quite interesting because she comes back in 1949 for a visit to Vienna. And of course, Vienna was a depressing grey city in the postwar era. And the bookshops were pretty empty. But in one bookshop, she suddenly sees her book in the shop window.

And of course, with the name Rudolf Roesch, the author's name Rudolf Roesch. And she was completely flabbergasted. And she was immediately writing to this publisher and said very polite letters, actually, and said, could I please have my authorship back now? And I understand that, of course, you couldn't publish it during the war under my name, but I'm back now and could I please have this?

I mean, she's very sweet. She writes about 17 letters in the 1950s. And no, he never gives it back to her. He fobs her off. He has all kinds of excuses. He says you signed a declaration in 1938. That's it. Wow.

So how much does it mean to you that you're able to do this, that you're able to get her name back on the book and that you are able to tell her story? Oh, it's wonderful for me. It's a great, great success. And from the very beginning, I said to the publishing house, we don't want any financial compensation. We just want her name back on the cover. And finally, finally, after 80 years, we have achieved that. The historian Carina Erbach and her book, Alice's book, How the Nazis Stole My Grandmother's Cookbook,

is out now. Now, someone who's used to telling the stories of others is Abby Morgan. The BAFTA and Emmy award-winning playwright and screenwriter is behind The Iron Lady, Suffragette, and most recently, BBC One drama The Split. Now Abby has turned the pen on herself after the most extraordinary series of events in her personal life,

the result of which is her first book. This is not a pity memoir. It starts with Abby's partner and the father of their two children, Jacob Krzyzewski, collapsing with a brain seizure in June 2018. not a pity memoir. It starts with Abby's partner and the father of their two children, Jacob Krzyzewski, collapsing with a brain seizure in June 2018. Abby told Emma about that day. The morning he collapsed, I'd just gone out to get him some paracetamol thinking he just had a headache. But as you said, you know, he went through a long period of in a coma. And during that time, the reason why he was put in that coma is he had developed

something called anti-NMDA encephalitis, receptor encephalitis, which is commonly known as brain on fire. And so rapid decline, needing to kind of go into a coma state. And then when he woke up, that was when everything really changed for us. Because I remember one of the consultants said, you know, Jacob's brain doesn't look like yours or mine anymore. It did read like the most dramatic plot, but it was your life and it was happening. He had been on a series of drugs, is that right? Yeah, so he was in the last phase of a very successful drugs trial. Jake had an underlying condition of MS, but he was very high functioning.

It was relapsing, remitting. So it meant that he went through phases of chronic fatigue. But other than that, he was in pretty good shape. And then in March 2018, which was three months before Jacob collapsed, the drug was voluntarily withdrawn by the pharmaceutical company. Following 12 people on it had collapsed with various forms of brain inflammation. And so subsequently another nine collapsed. We now believe jake is possibly one of those nine ten that collapsed and i know that's a sort of live proceedings which we don't and can't go into but you didn't

know any of this then all you knew was that he had collapsed he was having a seizure and actually almost quite irritated weren't you yeah i know i mean i i think if any woman has ever dealt with man flu um i sort of put it down to a bit of man flu, you know, and I'm kind of used, you know, Jake was very good at managing his MS. So, you know, and, you know, like any woman, I was juggling a lot. It was the last day of my son's GCSEs. You know, I wanted to go out and buy some lunch. I wanted to get my coffee. I was totally self-absorbed basically on my route, my day. And so, you know, it was such a shock when he did come back. And I think when something like that happens, you know, I remember a friend saying to me, you know, your future suddenly happens.

And it was like I had, you imagine these things, and certainly I'd plotted these things before, but when it suddenly happens to you, it's an immediate 360 backflip that you do. And I think I spent, you know, certainly the six, seven months while Jacob was in a coma, just trying to make sense of it. And then subsequently, when he came out of it, every consultant became a character. You know, every bit of dialogue that I heard felt like ripe for a film. And you also talk about, you know, there's this huge rush of energy and activity. And then there's nothing, you know, you're just there, aren't you?

And there's this day after day of going in and getting the coffee and sitting there. But there's also a whole industry around being in a coma. Yeah, I mean, I think if you ever watch a coma on the movies, it's just someone lies very still on a bed with very few, you know, wires in them. And it's very sort of calm. But in fact, the industry around keeping someone moving while they're in a coma, you know, keeping all their limbs moving, you know. So Jake was having physiotherapy just to kind of keep him physically moving,

even though he was in deep slumber. You know, you have these nurses who are constantly checking medication, checking blood pressure. And also, you know, Jake was on a ward of five, six other people. And it's a very respectful, quiet community because we're all dealing with our own tragedies. But then you have these intense little exchanges, you know, by the coffee machine or, you know, by the coffee machine,

or, you know, it was constantly a feeling. You never knew who was going to survive. And so there were very high stakes to it, and yet the nurses were these wonderful sort of metronome who kept it going. But it was at times very adrenalised, often very relentless and boring. And a lot of the time you are talking into space

and you're talking to someone who's silent, hoping that they can hear you. There is, as if this wasn't difficult, horrifying, upsetting enough, there is an even more horrifying part of this story, which is when he does wake up and you realise something about him and what he's thinking about you. Yeah, it's a great plot twist.

I mean, it felt like a cliche, but basically when Jacob woke up, what was amazing was very quickly we realised his language was intact. But for the first two or three weeks, everyone warmly embraced him. We were so delighted to see him. It was very clear he had a long way to go. But I became quickly aware

that the one person you didn't recognise anymore was me. And it was kind of distilled when I bought in a really cheesy red bright red balloon heart for Valentine's Day and gave it to him and the nurse had bought a really awful kind of red rose wrapped in cellophane for me and and very sweetly gave it to me and said Jacob say you know it's your wife and he said it's not my wife and from then on um it became apparent that jacob had developed a very specific and quite rare delusion called capgras delusion which is the belief that someone close to you has been replaced by an imposter it can also mean you can also mean your house can be replaced or a pet could be replaced but it's more likely someone close to you and so in january 2019

when he woke up it became apparent he didn't know who I was and it took a year to persuade him that actually I wasn't working for the state um and and and that I was in fact his partner long-term partner how did you cope with that well it's funny I'm hearing myself say it and you know I'm a dramatist so I'm aware of the drama but I can also feel the catch in my still you know it's still quite alive for me. It was so shocking I mean at first it was it was a mixture of hysteria and and shock and I remember I kept on gripping onto the walls and saying to people can you feel the underground underneath you and I realized I think I shook for three days solidly. So initially, it was really overwhelming. And then it was very painful, not only for me, but for Jake's family, for my family, for my children,

because, you know, they knew how much, you know, how much I adored Jake. And it was very odd to be asked to wait outside the room so he could be with family or, you know, and so what we devised and what really he came up with, really, he accepted in the first few weeks that I probably work for the state and I've been assigned by the state to help him and his children. And I kind of fell into that role for a while. And then that evolved into a friendship. And I made a very definite decision and a kind of life decision. I was so determined that he I was insulted that he would forget me. I think it was my indignation my arrogance probably and I thought I've just got to do everything to prove to him that I am his partner

and that I know him and I guess that's also where the book came from it became I I need to investigate interrogate myself but also my relationship with Jake and also to kind of write the story of us you know the story of him and who he was because and who I was because both of our identities in a way were threatened. But to have that, it's a theft, you know, you had waited and I had reading this book and anyone who does wait for that moment for you. And then there's this, it's not even a rejection. It's like a beyond rejection. Yeah, I mean, it's like a beyond rejection yeah I mean it's it's it's profoundly spooky and creepy and shaking and it demands that you have to dig very deep about who you are and you and I did have to really hold on to my sanity I think the way I held on was that I was surrounded by people

who loved me my children my family Jacob's family who are amazing and I think we were all so committed to getting Jacob well but there was a very key moment later when Jake came home which is I saw him look at himself in the mirror and I said who is that Jacob and he went I don't know and I said it's Jacob it's you and I realized it's not that he'd forgotten me he'd forgotten himself and when I started to perceive this as you say this theft this this this burglary of my own life um I started to realize actually it was all about him and I needed to help him find himself and in finding himself he'd find me again you were advised by professionals and I know you would say the same anyone going through that

would need support um and and part of that advice I know was once he had no further use for that um that viewer view as it were he would let go of it, which, as you say, took some time, but did happen. At the same time as this, Abby Morgan, you're having to continue working. You've got your deadlines. I know work would also have been a saviour, but it was necessary. You had to earn money and to keep things on the road. But you were not feeling well yourself. Yeah, I started to not feel great in about the April 2019.

So Jacob had just come out of his coma and was going into rehab. And I had this thumping pain in my chest. And I had thought it was the seatbelt rubbing against my chest as I drove. And then I put it down to too much chocolate and late nights and coffee. And I really had to take more care of myself. And a director, a very good girlfriend and director I work with said, you know what, just pop in, get it checked checked out and so I went in to see a breast surgeon and it became he said within 10 minutes of examining me he said I'm 99% sure you've got

breast cancer and so within two weeks I was diagnosed with stage three grade three breast cancer in my left breast which I was so annoyed by because it felt like such a bad, I just thought if this is going to be a movie, I can't put this in as well. I mean, you know, this is deserving of a film of its own and it's not coming in this movie. So I was kind of irritated, if I'm really honest. That was my initial reaction.

You know, the mercenary in me was like, this is not going to make a good plot choice here. I'm going to have to cut this bit. You get married, don't you? I do get married, I know. Yes, absolutely. Which isn't just for tax purposes, you make the point. No, I mean, ladies and gentlemen listening to this, it does help. Yes, but the point is, this is later.

Once he's home and, you know, there is a lot of detail there, which I know is important as well for people to know about, you know, how he comes home, what support is there, what support crucially isn't there. But people want to know what happened next and how he is today and how you are. So Jacob came home in the summer of 2019. And I think no one tells you that when someone comes back, that's when the rehab starts. And so we put through everything at it. We had every kind of therapist in town that money could buy. And I was very lucky. I took every gig in town, I was writing serial killer films and anything I could get. And it's been a slow process of

recovery. And at the same time, I was going through my treatment. And I think we were just getting to a point where I was starting to feel light at the end of the tunnel, I finished my treatment, and then we went into COVID. And so March 2020 was really the start of us all being at home as a family. And although that was incredibly hard, and I write about this, it also really brought us together and forced us to be together. And I think as a family, we really worked together to recover and help Jacob through that. And we've had some, you know, obviously it's been very up and down,

but in June 2021, we got married. And I think for many reasons, but mainly because there's nowhere else I want to be other than with Jacob. And we've been through such a lot together. And I think what I have regained in Jacob is his humor and his conversation, his wit. And those are always the things I loved about him. And there are moments in your life where you just want to stop and punctuate. And we'd had this massive backflip. And I guess I wanted to regroup and recheck and hone in and hold his hand

and put a ring on it, you know, I guess, if you want to use a phrase. And in the last six months, he's made even more of a recovery. Amazing, amazing. I think he's gone beyond anything that any of us could have imagined. You know, I think the expectation of Jake was pretty low this time last year. And then from about September onwards of last year, but really from January, February of this year, we've seen radical improvements.

So he's starting to do the things again he loves. He's just started to try and play tennis again. He's a great communicator. He loves movies. He loves football. And he's starting to explore the word travel a little bit. And he's out again in the world. And that's, we never ever expected that. So I feel huge gratitude at this moment. It's wonderful to be able to talk to you. As I say, I couldn't put it down. And you do, you do obviously see the world a bit like a film,

a bit like a drama. And there you are with this plot of your life. Yeah, well, I mean, I hope, you know, I think I wrote it for those kind of three o'clock in the morning moments where you're desperately trying to, you know, find anything on the Internet that you can relate to. And I remember actually also, sorry, just one other point was Kate Garroway, of course, came to national prominence during COVID, not just for her broadcasting work, but because, of course, what's going on with her husband bringing her home. And you refer to that in the book, actually, about how people live afterwards. Totally. And I think, you know, I look at someone like Kate Garroway and I know how incredibly hard it is when you're trying to maintain and sustain a family and bring someone back, you know, back to life again. And work. And work. And you do whatever you can.

And also you're trying to communicate your story because you're keeping your own sanity but also your story can help you know and i think you know i the i title it this is not a pity memoir and you if you read the book you'll understand why but it's really about you know a pity memoir is just words on pages and if it means something to someone then it's worth being said and i i guess that's what i admire about anybody who has gone through this experience, you know, and what you learn from it is the need and the desire to communicate and the hope it might help someone else as well as yourself. The writer, Abby Morgan, and her book, This Is Not A Pity Memoir, is out now. Now, Sophie Willan is the actor and creator of BBC Two's Alma's Not Normal, who took home an award for best female performance

in a comedy at the BAFTAs last weekend. The sitcom is inspired by her own experiences growing up and focuses on the relationships between the women in her family as she tries to make it as an actress. She told Emma how she's feeling after the win. Well, as you can hear, I'm a husk of a woman now. I partied for two and a half days. So I really, I really let rip.

And when I was going to go back home the next morning, you know, sensible post BAFTA. And then I thought, why? So I took my ward, who I called Julie, I took her out for a liquid lunch with my boyfriend. And it just went from there, really. Julie? About 4am. Well, I took the BAFTA back to the hotel and then I went out to GAY till 4am.

I was dancing Beverly Craven at 4am. Love it. Hang on, why is the BAFTA called Julie? After Julie Walters. So she's called Julie. And then I've got, obviously the one for writing last year, she's called Caroline after Caroline Ahern've got, obviously, the one for writing last year, she's called Caroline, after Caroline Ahern. Two of the absolute favourites. I love it.

And I just like the way you drop that in, you know, from my previous BAFTA. Oh, yeah, just get it in. Are they together now? Are they at one, these two BAFTAs? They're together, they've settled. They've got their own spot on the fireplace. I mean, they like to chat, but they also like their own space. So they're very independent women.

Just as they should be. Right, well, even though you're still recovering from partying, and I'm very happy to hear that people still actually, you know, go out and kind of ruin themselves for a few days after such a win. You dedicated this to your grandmother. Tell us why. Well, so I was kind of fostered by my grandma for quite a long time. I was fostered by other women as well, actually, all women.

But my grandma, I suppose, was probably one of the most important people in my life. And she passed away, unfortunately, on the second day of filming Alma. She'd been quite ill, but she was such a powerful woman. She was just such an incredible woman. I mean, she was been quite ill but she was such a powerful woman she was just such an incredible woman I mean she was a very complicated woman you know she'd had a lot of childhood trauma and she grew up in poverty so there was a lot of unprocessed stuff so I'm not going to say the relationship was always easy it was a very difficult but very very significant and important relationship um I actually left my grandma's work back into the system just before my 15th birthday.

So there was, you know, definitely had its issues. But also I just loved my grandma probably more than anyone, you know, really. She was just incredible. She very much liked Joan because Joan was kind of, Grandma Joan in Alma was very much inspired by my grandma. She was always wearing zebra print and animal print. So when it was her funeral, we insisted that always wearing zebra print and animal print. So when it was her funeral,

we insisted that everybody wore bright colours and animal print. And we played a playlist of her favourite songs. I read a poem and then I got everybody up on their feet to teach them some of grandma's dance moves, which was the wiggle, the boob shake, different things. And then as she was leaving in her shepherd's wool coffin, because she was insistent that she was some sort of Nicaraguan shepherd, very much like Joan, we got her up and we played Right Said Fred,

I'm Too Sexer, and she went out. And we had them dancing as she went out. So everybody danced out with her and off she went. And then we played the Northumberland Bagpipes because she was very obsessed with finding out where she was from she had recessed negative blood group so it's quite a rare blood group i've got the same so she's always telling me oh god you know we're miculag you know we've got roman egypt i mean and then there's kind of border reavers in scotland and you know she was obviously she just never felt like she was from

bolton really she always felt like she was i mean she did look different as well she had a very different look um so i think there was partly that that then there was she read into this thing that the recessed negative could be the missing link to the aliens so she was quite into that I don't understand why because she just thought I'm not from this planet there's something around she was very eccentric I love what listen she obviously had a huge impression on you and she believed that you could do it, despite how hard it will have been to get to where you've got to. Yeah, I mean, there's a line in Alma where they sat on the steps

and Joan says, you know, I could have been a star. Alma says, oh, I've watched this, I don't know, but I've always felt like one. And I think that, you know, was kind of how I felt, grandma felt. Yes. She always wanted to kind of, you know, it was kind of how I felt, grandma felt. Yes. She always wanted to kind of, you know, she was very encouraging. You know, I have my mum, unfortunately,

my mum was ill with drugs and different things. So never really left Bolton and was kind of ended up on the council stick that grandma was from. So it's kind of, but the thing for grandma was really wanting, you know, us to have this brilliant life and get out of Bolton and do exciting things, you know us to have this brilliant life and get out of bolton and do exciting things you know with our lives so she was really passionate about my creativity when she found out that i could perform in ibiza yeah she was on her own run out on you know she had four jobs she worked uh in a book is she worked um and summers doing the sex toy parties you know giving

out sex toys and running parties. A bit like an Avon lady with sex toys. She had a cleaning job. You know, she worked for Manfredi's Ice Cream on the telly sales. She did loads of stuff. And she was just a very sociable, very eccentric person. So I think when she saw that I could perform, she thought, fabulous. You know, just you go and do it.

Go and get them. I mean, my goodness, you have. How are you finding being a double BAFTA winning star? Oh, well, I feel I'm in my element. It's great. Well, it was really weird because Grandma died on the second day of filming and that was the same moment that I actually got nominated for the BAFTA, for the first BAFTA for writing.

So it did feel like a bit of a parting gift you know it felt very odd you know and we knew she was going to go because it was a super pink Native American moon you know which is very grandma to leave on such an interesting moon you know um and then the next day I found out that I'd been nominated for a BAFTA and then I won that one and then this year it's kind of just over a year that she passed away and I won the acting BAFTA. And I do feel like, you know, whether it's silly or not, you know, these are kind of little, you know, notes from grandma.

Yes. From grandma, I suppose, you know. What do you think she'd make of it? Oh, she'd be absolutely loving it. Would she have been at the liquid lunch? Oh, yeah. But I feel a bit sad because I think she would have loved to have gone to the BAFTAs.

I would have loved to have taken her. I think she just, you know, like I said, she always felt like she was a star. I feel like she would have just lapped it all up. You know, she would have loved it. I kind of felt that she was with me anyway, but I would have loved to have taken her. Well, what a gift.

And I think, you know, the double next to each other, you've given us such a vivid image of Caroline and Julie there. Yeah. I love it. What's next? Are we allowed to know what's next? Well, I'm writing the second series. Okay.

So, you know, I've got to get cracking now. I mean, I've had enough partying now, so I need to get on with it. Oh, you can have a bit more. Come on, it was only a few days. I want to speak if I do any more. I'm a hus. I mean, I've had enough partying now, so I need to get on with it. Oh, you can have a bit more. Come on. It was only a few days. I want a bit to speak, if I do any more. I'm a husk of a woman. So I think I'm going to get cracking with that and really just want to go tunnel vision on that, really, you know, and get to an interesting second series. And I want us to see other sides to the characters that we've not seen yet.

You know, I think there's more more to tell and you know I'm wanting to possibly explore Alma looking for her father and how that goes and another side to Grandma Joan as well that we haven't had chance to see yet you know looking more into mental health and and you know the the impact of a poverty riddled childhood if you've not been able to process it and you know and all these different things you know post the impact of a poverty riddled childhood if you've not been able to process it. You know, and all these different things, you know, postpartum and things like that, which I think has been a big feature in my family,

but really undiagnosed, I believe, I'm all about postpartum. And if you haven't seen it, put it on your watch list for this weekend. The award-winning and always joyous Sophie Whelan talking about her BAFTA win and her BBC Two show Alma's Not Normal. Now, are you planning to be one of the 200 million people expected to tune into this year's Eurovision Song Contest later tonight? Representing the UK this year is Sam Ryder, who's currently second favourite behind Ukraine to lift the trophy. The UK hasn't had much success of late, coming bottom in the last two occasions. Last year's scoring scoring null points. In fact, it was 25 years ago since the UK last won Eurovision with Katrina and the Waves and their song Love Shine a Light.

Well, I spoke to Katrina only yesterday, who's celebrating the release of her own single Holiday to coincide with the anniversary. And I started by asking her how sure she was that she'd win back in 1997. Yeah, I was sure I had a really good feeling about it because it's such a positive, beautiful song. I didn't know anything about Eurovision, so I didn't know what I was up against. Everybody just kept saying, you can't win because of the political voting. But I mean, look at the year in 1997. It was quite, I think the UK was on quite an up, actually. We had Britpop, Oasis, songs like Things Can Only Get Better, Tony Blair, it was Princess Diana, the show Absolutely Fabulous.

You know, it was kind of like a real good vibes for the UK. And I think also, did it help I was American? I don't know. I mean, the BBC even suggested to me that I try and tone down my American accent before I did the competition. It hasn't worked still. Well, no. I said, one of these days I'll learn myself to talk good. But until then, you know, it was just two minutes and 58 seconds of pure terror.

So you'd never heard of Eurovision. Is it true that you then watched VHSs of about 12? Well, I was very kindly sent a stack of 12 to 25 videotapes of past Eurovisions and told, binge it over the weekend and get your head around it because this is what it's all about. And I did say, I'm afraid, what the hell is this? I couldn't believe it. And then I was watching it last night and I thought I'd seen it all. But could I believe my eyes when there is a woman front of stage, she's washing her hands and she's being attended

by five gentlemen holding towels, holding hand towels. I don't know if you saw it. Syria. Oh, I need to watch that. Who was it? Syria. I thought you were going to say Cher. Because if it was Cher, I can believe it.

It was the Eurovision Song Contest last night. It was unbelievable. Yes, a different world. There was a guy on a bucking bronco at Eurovision. I mean, come on. So what do you remember from when you won it, when they announced your name? Well, I remember Tony, Terry Wogan,

and he was up in the rafters. He had a Guinness in one hand, a glass of champagne in the other, and he was balancing another glass of whiskey on his head. And he was just, you know, I mean, that was the vibe. It was incredible. It was a party. And it's kind of been a nonstop party for 25 years, I have to say.

Oh, that's good to hear. So let's talk about this year's contestant, Sam Ryder, who came through the contest via TikTok. How do you think he'll be feeling right now? Yeah, of course, he's going to be terrified. He's acting like he's all confident and it's all cool, man. Nah. You wait until that moment when you go up there.

I mean, my backup singers were all on beta blockers, so they were all calm and chilled out. And I said, hey, where are the beta blockers? Who's handing out the beta blockers? Where are my beta blockers? You know, it's something that opera singers take so their voices don't go of pure terror sam sam is a good choice it was a it's about time we looked to the talent

pool that tick tock is and said let's get something from there yeah and it is a it's it's a solid song isn't it's a good pop song like yours was. It's going to kind of capture the, hopefully, hopefully, we never know. I'm not going to say anything. Yeah, it is. It's uplifting and it's effervescent. And he's a great performer. He's a great singer. And we've got a lot going for us this year. It's been really hard other years where people have asked me and I've had to politely say, I wish them all the very best of luck because they're most years they need a lot more than luck but I think Sam is is looking very good for us this year there's something to celebrate definitely and hopefully another Eurovision song contest winner so we can put me to bed once and for all no we're never we're never gonna do that we're never ever will you be watching are you

gonna be having one of those big parties yeah well, well, you can't believe my day. It's a ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong with a lot of stuff. I do a lot of charity work on that day, but when the night comes, it's going to be a crack open the champagne and get the cuddly toys ready to throw at the TV for all the ones we don't like. Oh, I love that.

And who's going to win it? Ukraine's going to win it. Yeah, without a doubt. They say that the Eurovision Song Contest is political. Well, all right. It can be a heartfelt political vote, but the Ukraine deserve it because it's a great song. And I think we all feel as if we are united

in wanting to honour them in any way we can. The singer and songwriter Katrina and her new single Holiday is out now. Good luck, Sam Ryder. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.