Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Emily Blunt, Stammering, Long-distance friendships, Maria Callas' legacy

Episode Date: December 2, 2023

Research by the charity Stamma shows that 8% of children will start stuttering at some point. Our listener Geri, a mother who’s son has a stammer, got in touch with Woman’s Hour and asked us to discuss the topic. Kirsten Howells from Stamma, Tiktok influencer Jessie Yendle and Geri join Claire McDonnell to share their own experiences and advice.Actor Emily Blunt found fame as the scene-stealing assistant in The Devil Wears Prada, and has since starred in many films including Mary Poppins Returns and A Quiet Place with her real-life husband John Krasinski. She is also in one of this year’s biggest cinematic hits, Oppenheimer. As Christopher Nolan’s blockbuster about the father of the atomic bomb is released on ultra-HD DVD and Blu-ray, Emily Blunt talks to Clare McDonnell about her role as Kitty Oppenheimer, Robert’s wife.How do you keep long-distance friendships going? Clare talks to filmmaker Shannon Haly, who lives in New York and wrote a viral poem about missing her best friend. They are joined by the journalist Rose Stokes who, after having an 18-year long-distance friendship decided to move to live in the same city as her friend.What do women look for in a bra after breast cancer surgery? Clare is joined by Katy Marks, an architect by trade, who discovered after her single mastectomy that there was no bra on the market that was flat on one side. She didn’t want to use a prosthetic and so designed her own, called Uno, which launched on Monday. She’ll be joined on the programme by Asmaa Al-allak who won this year’s Great British Sewing Bee and is a consultant breast surgeon who has made post-surgery lingerie for her patients.Today marks 100 years since the birth of one of opera’s most renowned and influential singers of the 20th century: the iconic heroine, Maria Callas. But what is it about her talent that has transcended the decades? Two sopranos – Alison Langer and Nadine Benjamin – join Anita to describe Maria Callas’ enduring star quality. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Hanna Ward Studio Manager: Tim Heffer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, where we bring you the highlights from the week just gone. I'm Anita Rani. Coming up, research shows that 8% of children will start stammering at some point and we hear how it can affect everyday life. So when it comes to the canteen, and I'll just go for the food,

which I was then able to say on the spot, and then he'd go back to the table and he'd be like, oh, I don't really want this, but I didn't want the other kids to start laughing. Actor Emily Blunt speaks to us about Oppenheimer, the actor's strike and how her children make fun of her accent. And architect Katie Marks tells us why she designed her own bra after having a single mastectomy. I was determined to rethink how asymmetry was sort of perceived by people because I just thought to myself, you know, there must be thousands of women who look like me.

And yet I've never walked down the road and seen anyone openly asymmetric. We're all hiding. And do you have a long distance friendship? How do you cope? We'll be hearing from two guests about their experiences. That's all coming up. So grab yourself a drink, hot or cold, and settle in. First, research shows that 8% of children will start stammering at some point, and although they can grow out of it, some do carry it on into adulthood. For many parents, this can be a worrying experience, wondering how best to support their child. A Woman's Hour listener, Geri, wrote into the programme about exactly this. Her son, Elliot,

has a stammer. Kirsten Howells, the Director of Services at the charity Stammer, and Jessie Yendall, who's been sharing her stammer story online to over two million followers, also joined the discussion. Claire began by asking Geri about when she noticed her son's stammer. So Elliot stammered a little when he was kind of two or three, but it was really a couple of years ago that we noticed he was stammering. And we didn't really know how to address it and we didn't really have any language

and we kind of ignored it really and honestly hoped it would go away. And at one point we realised he was stammering and he was becoming upset. And it was the point at which his sister, who was around four at the time, said, Elliot, it's easy, just say tree. And we tree and we thought okay fine we need to do something so we looked online and we did find the stammer website and contacted our local stammer services and we've been linked in with them

in Bristol for the past couple of years and they've been amazing and really supportive and it's really been a journey of understanding and discovery for us learning to have the language to talk to Elliot about stammering and learning to take turns at home and learning to wait. I believe Geri as well you're frustrated about not only the lack of understanding but the lack of representation of people with stammers and when they are represented they're not always represented in a good light. No, and we became very mindful of this when Elliot, who's a prolific reader,

began reading the Harry Potter series quite early. And in one of the books, Professor Quirrell has a stammer and he's portrayed as nervous and actually a baddie. And actually, commonly in lots of books, people stammer, in literature anyway, when they're nervous. And it's not necessarily related to that. It doesn't necessarily mean that someone is nervous or worried or anxious.

It's just a type of neurodiversity, really, and another way of speaking. I do want to say I asked Elliot for his permission for me to come on Women's Hour. And he said, oh, mum, a bit embarrassing, but OK. And I asked him what he wanted people to know about his stammer. And he said he wanted people to know that it isn't the fault of the person who stammers. Well, it's so good to hear Elliot's voice as well. And, Gerry, it sounds like you've had great advice from the woman sitting opposite me, Kirsten Howells, director of services at the charity Stammer. Kirsten, we heard some really important points there from Gerry.

And one of the ones i took away from that is wait have patience yeah you're right it is really important and i think sometimes when people who don't stammer meet someone who does they're taken by surprise and people sometimes might try to help out and the intent can be really good but it's quite a common experience to find that people might try to finish off your sentences for you and obviously you know there are thousands tens of thousands of people who stammer we're all different we all have different preferences but the vast majority of people who stammer were all different. We all have different preferences. But the vast majority of people who stammer say that they'd like to speak for themselves and they just like that space.

Just wait. Just wait. Geri, I mean, I'm sure a lot of that rings true with you. When you go back to before you got the diagnosis, was that you? Were you the hurry-up parent? Were you the kind of finish-the-sentence parent? Well, we have done. You know, you just want to help.

And when Elliot was struggling to finish his sentence, we would we would try and support him. And we were kind of we didn't want to make it a big deal. So we didn't know how to address it. And really the, you know, liaising with the stammering services has given us that language. And we have asked Elliot and said, Elliot, when you are stuck on your words, do you want us to help you try and find the word? And he said, no, I just want you to wait. And it was kind of a breakthrough that we had the language to ask him because we were kind of scared to address it, which sounds crazy. But, you know, it's it's been quite a journey for all of us. As with any kind of difference, it's almost the anxiety of getting things wrong, not necessarily prejudice that holds people back and the worry about putting their foot in it.

Let's bring in Jessie now, Jessie Yendell. Jessie, I've been watching some of your videos on TikTok. You're an absolute legend. You really are. You've changed the game when it comes to representation of people with stammers but let's go back before we get on to that let's go back to um your childhood I mean it wasn't straightforward for you was it oh not at all not at all um so I remember um I remember as a child I was in a school and when it come to like the school a register

I would get like that I would get the anxiety ready to say I like as you have to answer in like the English and then the Welsh and I remember when I went to answer a answer a a question to the teacher I would get so frustrated I would start to pull like my hair out um and that's when like the school then I got involved and I just remember going to like the head teachers a room one day and I thought oh am I in trouble and and this man and he told me I've got a speech impediment and exactly what he was and that I needed to go to speech therapy um and so I went to speech therapy for many many oh my god like many years up until I was around about, I want to say like 13.

And I gave him my best shot and just, and it just wasn't for me, sadly. And I'm also noted that just reading your story, it wasn't just the register. I mean, you'd queue up in the lunch break, wouldn't you? And you might want to eat something different, but you always stuck with the one thing that you knew you could say. So when it comes to the canteen and you'd have to go up to get your food and you'd have to tell the dinner lady basically what you wanted.

And I'll just go for the food which I was then able to say on the spot and then he'd go back to the table and he'd be like oh I don't really want this but I didn't want I feel like the other kids to start laughing and that's what it is I like the education because um am I supposed to when you are in a primary school and even when it came to like when I went to high school and it's just the people aren't educated and that's what um I wanted to do basically with my TikTok and my platform is is to educate people. You've done it brilliantly and it's so accessible um so so tell us about the drive-through uh videos first of all because I know you've done loads but this was the kind of breakthrough video

wasn't it I um I was a support worker and I was finishing like my 24-hour shift and I was driving home and I thought I really want a nice iced coffee a nice drink um and like the drive-through and I was like my biggest like fear is you haven't got like the eye contact and and you're just speaking to like the speaker box and then that person I can't tell uh if you are struggling and so and so I built up this, I just built up like, and I just built up like the fear of the drive-through. And just like one day I decided to do it. I went around the drive-through and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going be to be honest with you and when I came out the other side I

just felt just so proud and I knew that like and I knew like my friends and my husband just wouldn't believe me um and that's why I decided to film here I came home and I just put up onto my TikTok I only had like 20 followers like my friends and my family back then. And that was for me. And I guess a lot of people could just relate to the fear of doing pretty much anything. As we all have our own fears. And after I did that challenge, I was on a cloud nine. Geri, how does it feel to listen to Jessie talking like this?

And, you know, she had to wait a long time to kind of, you know, come out of the shadows herself. But does that give you heart for your son? It does. It's so lovely. And I can't tell you how nice it is to hear people stammering on the radio it's just amazing and I can't wait to play this back to Elliot and I can agree more and my quote which I say to everyone is and and and and nobody is you and that is your a superpower because when you go to speech therapy and they want to make you sound like And nobody is you and that is your superpower.

Because when you go to speech therapy and they want to make you sound like a fluent speaker. And I don't and I don't agree with that anymore. I really don't. As it is, as it is our superpower and we should be proud of it and not ashamed. Kirsten, I wanted to put that point to you then. Has that kind of way of thinking moved on a lot with speech therapy over the years? That, you know, we're now approaching it in a different way, not trying to kind of force people into a normal way of speaking? I think certainly there have been huge changes in approaches in speech therapy over the last sort of 10 to 20 years.

So we're seeing much more focus on that environment and that understanding and that confidence building and that being able to say what you want to say regardless of whether it's fluent or stammered and then being of of really equal value and I think the next step in that work is making sure that I'm thinking of those examples from Jesse's school days that when schools and businesses are setting up that those ways of working is making sure have we thought about people who stammer simple things like you

know the the different ways that you might be able to respond to the register, for example. You know, are we giving all children a choice so that they can respond in the best way they want or are we channelling everybody into one way of doing something, one way of opening a bank account, one way of booking an appointment or are we making space for people who talk differently

and also offering flexibility so people can do it in the way that's going to be most effective for them that was kirsten howells from the charity stammer but you also heard from women's hour listener jerry and tiktoker jesse yendall in that interview now actor emily blunt found fame as the scene stealing assistant in the Devil Wears Prada and has since starred in many films, including Mary Poppins Returns and A Quiet Place with her real-life husband, John Krasinski. She's also in one of this year's biggest cinematic hits, Oppenheimer.

As Christopher Nolan's blockbuster about the father of the atomic bomb is released on Ultra HD DVD and Blu-ray, Claire spoke to Emily Blunt about her role as Kitty, Robert Oppenheimer's wife. We also got her views on the actor strike and her experience of having a stammer. But first, she was asked how she approached playing the naughty, complex character of Kitty Oppenheimer. I think it might be easy to stereotype her as this kind of brittle, horrible person. But I guess I just really tried to dive deep with a lot of empathy as to what it must have been like to have been living with a brain like she had and for that to have been squandered in the sort of isolation and loneliness of having to be a good housewife in Los Alamos and I think she just represented to me a lot of women who have

just driven themselves insane at the ironing board sort of wanting more for themselves and yet having to be the ballast and the spine that keeps their husband upright. And she clearly had a drinking problem and clearly was not an easy person. But I admired this sort of startling force that she was and loved playing her, you know, as messy and as unhinged as she could sometimes be. You've described her as having this brilliant brain. She was a biologist. She was a botanist as well. After her marriage to Oppenheimer, she worked as a lab tech, didn't she, at the Manhattan Project. How do you feel as a woman filming her life now? Do you get angry? Do you ever think, goodness me, if she'd walked in my shoes now, her life would have been entirely different?

Yes, I do. And I think that about so many women and women that I know who I think hit that point in life where they feel and was completely capable, as so many women have always been completely capable. And so, yes, I do feel that sense of frustration and I have great understanding and empathy for it. That it's OK that it's not enough just to be someone's mummy or someone's husband and it should be allowed. One of the standout scenes in the movie it was a very fraught marital relationship she comes out fighting for her husband he's accused of espionage and she wipes the floor with the panel investigating him. How did it feel to sort of unleash her intelligence and her articulacy in that scene? It was a very exhilarating scene to shoot. And I remember the set was very claustrophobic and Chris Nolan sort of wanted it that way. It was a very tight, shabby room. And I think I loved

the opportunity for her to reclaim that brain of hers and to eviscerate someone who had been bullying her husband and no one was speaking up, no one was speaking plainly. And I think the audience is so desperate for someone to come in and rip the face off this guy. And so it was also a great setup because by that point she'd been displayed as being such a unpredictable character so for her to be able to come in and rally and say exactly what she felt and to relish wiping the floor with

them was really fun. Is it important to you then when you play characters like her to say well she may not have got her due and and not being given her opportunity to be as brilliant a scientist as her husband. But I, as an actress now, all these years later, I can put it on the record who she truly was and what she was capable of. Yes, it's always hugely important to me to try to reveal the full spectrum of somebody. Nobody is just one thing. And nobody can be summed up in just a few words. And I think Chris Nolan did create a emotionally very visceral character for me to play.

Certainly wrote such juicy scenes. Even if she isn't in the movie that much, I think she's quite a big, when I read the script, I was like, wow, she's such a presence because all the scenes were so emotional. But I was greatly relieved that she had a moment for reclamation, really, you know, because I think she'd been deemed so unhinged at that point.

Everyone's waiting for that moment for her to kind of come back to life a bit. And even if she's walking into the testifying scene, she's not even walking in a straight line. So you just think, oh God, she's going to choke. It's going to be so embarrassing. It was thrilling. I want to ask you about the actor strike while we have you as well. Of course, it did affect the London premiere of Oppenheimer.

You and your co-stars walked off the red carpet. It was quite a moment. How important was that moment for you? Oh, it was hugely important to all of us. We all got together before the red carpet and we said, and we all felt the same, that it was a moment to celebrate this incredible film, but we certainly needed to use it as a moment to express solidarity with the union. So it just felt like we were

striking the right chord by trying to do both, really. How has it felt then? Because this is a sort of previously undiscovered solidarity across your industry. You know, you've got writers and actors and people behind the scenes. And it's been this incredible moment of union. What do you think that's done for your profession? Oh, I think it's been so far reaching. And I think that it has brought us together. And I think it's woken up a lot of people to treatments that have been normalized for so long with regards to healthcare or the hours that you work. I mean, the list goes on. So what SAG and the Writers Guild and the Directors Guild were fighting for, I think was just raising awareness that we've all

normalized certain treatments and certain contractual obligations for so long that I think everyone's eyes got open to what needed to change. And you said just before the strike, you were taking a year off to spend more time with your family. Did you manage to get a better work-life balance during the strike? I mean, I've always managed to achieve it. Like I've never gone back to back on movies and I've always felt that I've tried to balance it. I think sometimes little bit in no way to quit the business, just to like take some downtime. And it's been wonderful. And your children, I know you split your time with your husband, John Krasinski, between the UK and the US. You've mentioned the fact that they have American accents, not British ones. I mean, is mean, have you lost that battle?

I feel like I don't have a choice. I don't know. I think it's like whatever environment the kids grow up in, that's what they're going to adopt. Like, I look at my sister's kids, who she has with Stanley Tucci. Yes, your sister, the literary agent Felicity Blunt. Her children are so English. They are the most posh, beautifully spoken children. But yet their dad's American. Their siblings are American from Stanley's first relationship. And yet I think it's just because they live in England. That's what they're surrounded with. That's how they'll sound. I think my kids do a great impersonation of me. I mean, they do very good English accents.

It's just not what they speak in, you know. It's good that they can turn it on when they choose to. They can turn it on, for sure. I'm sure. The daughters of two actors. And I wanted to ask you, we did a really fascinating feature earlier in the week on Woman's Hour on stammers

and loads of incredible stories coming in from the listeners. And I know... Oh, I'd love to hear it. I'd love to hear it. Well, I'm sure we could get it to you. on stammers and loads of incredible stories coming in from the listeners. And I know... I'd love to hear it. Oh, well, I'm sure we could get it to you. You're very much involved in the American Institute for Stuttering, which is what stammering is called in America. And I just wanted to know, as a child, you had a stammer. Has acting helped you cope with that?

How did you cope with it? You know, stuttering, which people don't realise, I think people put it down to, or it's misidentified often as a nervous disposition or some kind of psychological disorder. But it's actually biological, very often hereditary, and neurological. So I'll always be one. I'm probably unaware of how much I flip flop words around to substitute ones that are easier to say, which most stutterers do is that you're constantly doing a sort of gymnastics. You can sense ahead, oh, that word's going to trip me up or I'm going to get stuck on that one. I'll switch it for something else. So I think that is something maybe I don't even realize I do now. Certain environments will still create a struggle

for me. Like if someone asks me to pitch them anything, it's a nightmare, like any sort of pressurized situation where you have to convince or persuade. But I did sort of grow out of it. My parents were very, my mom was very, very forthright about trying to get me therapy and help from any kind of realm that she thought would be helpful. I always encourage kids and adults to do an acting class or I don't know, to take a monologue home with them and just read it intimately to yourself rather than in a presentational sense, because any kind of presentational state is so scary for a stutterer. So I encourage them to just read, read some Shakespeare at home, read a poem to yourself quietly, intimately, and concentrate on your emotions rather than words. I think words on a page are just seen as failures, right? Like one's

consonant or verb after another, that's what you see. You approach speech in a sort of staccatoed sense. And I think it just, you've got to sort of wrap your arms around this part of yourself and know it's just not all of you. It's just a part of you and everyone's got something. And this just happened to be my thing. Like I've met a lot of stutterers from Bruce Willis to Samuel L. Jackson who all stutter. But when they act, they don't.

And it's still a bit mysterious to all of us. And I wonder if when you're being creative, you're just accessing a different part of your brain that stops the record skipping. Or you remove yourself from yourself. So maybe it's an out-of- body experience that's helpful. But I did find it helpful, even if I would act in a different accent, different essence of someone else, it would free me up. And then I think once you give your brain that sort of reservoir of I can speak fluently, I can do this, even if you're doing it in a silly accent or pretending to be someone else, but you've

got the reservoir so then it does kind of help with confidence going forward that you can and you will again the people we had on the program were so grateful that we were talking about stuttering and uh and did stutter when when we did the item um yeah they also made the point that that that is what you need to see you need to see and hear people doing this in you know in acting or in reading the news or whatever it is so it's it's not something that you have to overcome as you've just articulated so well it's it's something that's a part of us and if you don't present that difference to the rest of the world then it's always going to be seen as a problem do you think we should see more of that? And in acting specifically, stuttering is obviously very often a kind of negative character trait, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, the one thing I still would absolutely love to do is make a movie about

a stutterer. And it's something that I'm quite passionate about just to destigmatize it and understand the emotional trauma of living with the inability to speak will limit you in ways that are, for someone who speaks fluently, pretty unimaginable. And 80 million people around the world stutter. That is a huge, huge percentage of the population, really. So as long as we can keep destigmatizing it, then there won't be so much shame. It can just be more acceptable because I think it is one trait that is very easily bullied still. Whereas others are like, no, no, you mustn't talk about that anymore but stuttering is like it's people have fun with it you know they they enjoy poking fun at it without understanding the trauma of living with it. The brilliant Emily Blunt there and she really is exceptional in the film Oppenheimer. Now, have you ever watched strangers in the street hug and laugh

and it made you nostalgic for a time when you'd been like that with your friends? One of our next guests was inspired to write a poem after walking past two younger girls laughing in the street. Shannon Haley wrote a poem about missing her best friend because they live in different countries. She posted it to social media and was amazed when it went viral. It struck a chord with many people missing their friends.

She joined Claire on the programme alongside journalist Rose Stokes, who decided after 18 years of not living in the same city as her best friend, to move her family to be closer to them. Claire began by asking Shannon more about the inspiration behind the poem. Me and my best friend from home, when we're together, it's just a different sort of humour that I have with anybody else. It's just, we'll be hysterically laughing. It's just so comfortable with the person.

I think that's something that I've always searched for in friendships when I've been abroad, that I just haven't found anybody bar her. And I saw these two girls and they had the exact same thing. And yeah. So you wrote a poem. Can you read it for us now? Of course. To my best friend that I don't get to see every day. My best friend who lives a full ocean away. Today I was passing two girls just like us and it sort of just stopped me. Just made my heart crush. Because the way they were laughing, they had these tears in their eyes, no words were coming, just joy making them cry. And they were a little bit younger, around the age we first met, and I think maybe that's why it made me so upset.

Because these girls in the future may live an ocean away and they won't get to see each other every single day, and the days I would give anything just to rewind and go back are the days of just laughing on a Monday just like that and I hope you know that you never leave my mind and I speak about you to everybody all of the time and no matter how many friends new people I meet I'd swim the ocean tomorrow to just laugh on the street. What a beautiful poem what's your friend called? Julie. Julie what did Julie say when you read that to her? I think she related to it.

I'm sure she did. I mean, tell us when you met her, because it sounds like you've been friends for a very long time. It's so strange now because I've been, we've been friends for just as long, living apart as we have living in the same city but she's the best but it definitely feels strange that we're living these separate lives she's over in London I'm in New York. We're going to talk to Rose now. Rose your friend you miss so much you decided on something rather drastic didn't you? It does maybe sound a little bit crazy doesn't it? So yes no so my best friend and I, our mums met when they were pregnant in the NCT and we were born in the same week. So pretty much first 18 years of our lives, inseparable. Everything we did together, like all of the experiences you can imagine.

And then obviously we went to different unis as people so often do and our lives started to diverge. I moved abroad. I went back and then when I came back, I was in London. She moved to Bath um with her husband and she had children and then when I met my partner um and we had a baby we had already agreed that um London wasn't really where we wanted to be long term and when we started to think about places where we might live it felt a bit like a no-brainer and I also to be clear went to university here so it wasn't the only reason to move here but my husband really really liked the place and also he really wanted me and Maddy to be reconnected so that's what we did.

Yeah was he just tired of you constantly texting Maddy it's like let's just move. Well unfortunately that hasn't actually stopped but I think it's like let's just move well unfortunately that hasn't actually stopped but um I I think it's because I motherhood new motherhood hit me really hard um I had postnatal depression and anxiety and I found it really isolating and because Maddie who was sort of five years ahead of me in terms of she had her kids a while ago like I was leaning on her more um but obviously when you've got children if anyone has children they know like all of your conversations have to sort of bend around your children's plans moods naps not napping going to bed etc so it was a really tough time and

um yeah it just became sort of more and more clear that um being nearer to my support network would be better for me and also from your friend I guess if she was slightly ahead of you on the on the kid front she can help you loads can't she just with advice and support um yes no it's really handy and also just to have someone that could like can just drop in if you're I mean I even just video called her the other morning because I was crying and my child was crying. Or I drove around to her house the other morning because I'd dropped off my son and he'd been emotional at nursery. And I just cried on her sofa for 30 minutes and then we both went to work. And what does it change? I suppose because you can have that informality when you're close by.

You can just do the drop ins, which is the thing that I guess Shannon is really missing how does that change things for you Rose that she's just she's just there now I really thought it would be like a big like whoa um but actually it just feels like it always was like it feels completely normal like it's just nice and comforting to know that each other's nearby like obviously we've got children we're both busy um but the drop-ins I just can't get over how nice it is to just be able to casually sort of pop around and for me I think when your like predominant form of communication is either text message or phoning each other or whatever you tend to condense like what's going on in your life into sort of headlines don't you and sort of you miss out a

lot of the details whereas I feel like possibly I'm much more in tune now with the sort of broad reach of her emotional you know health everything that she's going through small things big things like um that perhaps beforehand wouldn't have made you know the headlines or whatever um we did keep in touch fantastically well over 18 years i have to say when i think back it's it's mad but um you know we had a pretty much a constant conversation going for 18 years on whatsapp well i just wanted to bring shannon back in because it's it's hard for you it must be hard for you shannon listening to this because you know your work has taken you to new york and that's where your life is now um and i guess that's a very good point

isn't it? Because when you don't see friends for so long, it's almost like you are giving them the headlines. Do you notice that your relationship with your close friend has changed now because of the distance? Yeah, 100%. And it's that exact thing. It's you miss the small details about a person's life that, you know, you would have gotten if when we were living in the same place together. But I mean, I think it's trial and error with any long distance friendship relationship. We've started writing email letters to each other

just to try and get in those small details that you miss over text or sometimes if you're having a quick call and that's been nice. But no, it's definitely so nice listening to Rose say that because I dream of the day that we are back living in the same place like that. Do you know what? Honestly, I really want to say to you, okay, I'm making a huge guess here that

you're quite a bit younger than me. And in my 20s, I felt exactly the same. And I couldn't actually really conceive of an idea where our lives would come back together again, because she was sort of further down the marriage kids line than I was she lived in a different city I was single you know working in London as a journalist I didn't really see how those two things could ever me but I think that you know we still kept putting the effort in putting the effort in and then somehow it just all clicked back into place and you know I just you never really know where life's going to take you and maybe you'll end up in the same city again and so it's definitely worth keeping those relationships like alive and like I'm the same as you like everyone in my life that I met knew about Maddie like she's like

part of my you know she's part of who I am exactly and so keeping them alive in that way and then and then you just don't know where your life's going to take you. I mean, five years ago, I lived in London, was single and lived and, you know, was living on my own. Now I have a husband, a child, live down the road from my best friend. Would your friend Shannon move to New York or can you see yourself going back to Ireland? I think ideally I would actually love to move back home. Right now, it's just the place that's right for me work wise, but I would, at least even if I moved to London, she was still in the UK. I think that would be also a possibility maybe.

Shannon Haley and Rose Stokes there. And so many of you got in touch following that conversation about long distance friendships. One listener WhatsApp to say, just listen to Shannon Haley's poem about missing her best friend. Got a lump in my throat because I've known my besties since we were both five we live on opposite sides of the country and i miss her every day and i drive my husband bonkers for always texting her to share a thought bobby message does to say my best friend susan has been part of my life for

over 80 years she's lived in france for 60 years and we seldom see each other but speak regularly and I take much comfort from knowing she's there for me. Another one of you said, lovely story about friendship and moved to tears by the poem. My beautiful best friend took her own life almost a year ago and I would cross any ocean to hug in the street again. Sue got in touch to say, Josie, a Californian artist and I, then a garden designer in Bristol, met on a trip to Nepal at the turn of the millennium. We've visited each other over the years and keep in touch regularly over video calls.

A lovely friendship that's endured. We've both made every effort to keep in touch, essential for long-distance friendships. And that's Sue from the Cotswolds. And finally, Zoe emailed to say, My best friend Miranda and I celebrated our 40th Best Friend Anniversary last year. And that's Sue from the Cotswolds. And if we don't get a chance to talk, we share our wordles. We have the comfort of knowing, if needs be,

we'll be there for each other at the drop of a hat. This has been invaluable as we are both only children who made a lifelong pact at nine years old to be the next best thing to sisters. That is so heartwarming. Love it.

Still to come on the programme, we hear from a woman who decided to design her own bra after feeling disappointed with what was available for women who'd had a single mastectomy. And we reflect on the life of the iconic operatic heroine Maria Callas, as today marks 100 years since her birth. And remember, if you can't join us during the week, live at 10am for Woman's Hour, then you can subscribe to our podcast. It's absolutely free via BBC Sounds.

Now, what do women look for in a bra after breast cancer surgery? Are there enough options that are both attractive and comfortable? Well, Katie Marks didn't think so. An architect by trade, Katie discovered after her single mastectomy that there was no bra on the market that was flat on one side. She didn't want to use a prosthetic and so designed her own bra, called Uno, which launched this week. Katie spoke to Claire alongside Asma al-Allak,

who you may know as this year's winner of the Great British Sewing Bee. She's a consultant breast surgeon and has been known to make post-surgery lingerie for her patients. Claire began by asking Katie why she didn't opt for a reconstruction after a mastectomy. There were lots of practical reasons why I didn't have a reconstruction straight away. So one was that I knew I needed radiotherapy and I was told by my oncologist that radiotherapy can affect the implant. So if you have an immediate reconstruction, it can sort of go a bit wonky. And another reason was that I'm a double F cup.

And what a lot of people don't realize is that when you have a mastectomy, often all your skin is taken away as well. So then they have to stretch the skin from above and below where your breast was to stitch you up again. So your skin is already stretched. And then in order to put an implant in, they have to stretch it a bit more to make another breast. And there was no way they could stretch it enough to match my breast on the other side. So then I was facing the idea of having a breast reduction on the other side. And I just thought, I don't want to do that. You know, I've had chemotherapy, I've had radiotherapy, I've had surgery. I just don't want to do that anymore. I just want to be alive. Bitter enough, by the sounds of things. And so you're asymmetric. You have one breast. prosthetics and I had that experience I think probably a lot of women in this situation have where you go into a shop to buy a mastectomy bra

and you end up sort of collapsing in a heap in tears in the changing room just feeling really depressed by what's on offer. What was wrong with it? Oh it just they all feel like a bit of a contraption and you're just coming to terms with your body you're just looking at yourself in the mirror you know sort of 360 mirror in a changing room and it really you know hammers it home yeah so that that made me feel really down and also I found that wearing a prosthetic was a little bit like permanently wearing a bikini you know that feeling of oh how do I look in this you know is it sort of in the right position is it sort of shifting around because even though they get put into a sort of pocket within a mastectomy bra because it's not fixed to your body it still effectively rides up so I remember one one instance really vividly when

I was actually doing some teaching a couple of months after my surgery and I was in in front of a room of students and I looked down and my boob was like near my shoulder I just I just thought oh god you know excuse me a second yes I had to just go and readjust and from that moment that was that was a bit of a turning point for me and I just chucked it out and I just looked at myself in the mirror and thought right I've just got to learn how to like myself and part of that for me was finding clothes that looked great and I was determined to rethink how how asymmetry was sort of perceived by people because I just thought to myself you know there must be thousands of women who look like me and yet I've never walked down the road and seen anyone openly asymmetric we're all hiding why are we feeling embarrassed of having had cancer

we're made to feel like you know it's not normal it's not feminine even you know within a medical environment people with very good intentions very kindly will say to you oh you're young you know you still want to look feminine don't you better have a reconstruction and there's just so much pressure that that is the way to be feminine I just thought actually I'll decide what makes me feminine thanks very much you know. Yeah and you're reclaiming that ground because you have designed a bra that actually is an asymmetrical bra. We'll get onto that in a second.

Let's bring in Asma. Asma, welcome. From your perspective as a breast surgeon, what proportion of your surgeries are mastectomies? And it's so interesting listening to Katie, isn't it? That she's sort of changing the game on all of this, saying, you know, you don't have to to act lots of women will want that reconstructive surgery but she's saying well maybe if you've been through enough you should sort of say well

I'm proud with the way I am now this is me going forward through life. So of the ladies who are diagnosed with breast cancer probably about a fifth or a quarter of them will have a mastectomy because as medics, sometimes we have to dictate that is the advice we give them that they need a mastectomy. And there are a proportion of women who opt to have a mastectomy. You have to sit and try and support women throughout the process. And there is a lot to take in. And as Katie said, it's not just about the surgery.

It's about the chemotherapy. It's about the chemotherapy. It's about the radiotherapy. It's about the hormonal therapy. And you get bombarded with all of that information. But when you decide on a mastectomy, part of what our guidelines say, and I always have issues sometimes with guidelines, well, you have to offer women a reconstruction. So it's part and parcel of what you do. And then you give them the pros and cons of it.

And then they make a decision on what to do. So again, I think Katie's right in saying that women do feel quite pressurized because it's part of what we do. Are you saying you'd like to see the guidelines rewritten then? You don't want to have to say that to every woman because you are inferring then that, you know, this is probably what you'd prefer, maybe? I think you have to find a balance. I think you have to give patients the choice because what you don't want to happen

is for a woman to turn around and say, I never had the choice. There are times when we will turn around. And as Katie was told, you know, you're having radiotherapy, I do not recommend an immediate reconstruction at this time, because it's going to impact on your treatment. There are times when we have to say that. And we do take away the choice from women. But there are times when I think maybe like Katie felt, I don't know, again, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Katie, whether you felt almost like you were being pressured into having a reconstruction and why aren't you having it because we're offering it to you. It wasn't so much pressured because, you know, in general, my treatment has been really wonderful. And I also wouldn't want to put across the message that

I think having a reconstruction is not a good thing because for lots of women, it's wonderful and it's transformative. And probably if there'd been an option that worked for me at the time, I may well have gone for it. But it just it didn't practically work for me at the time. But I think rather than being pressured, it was just that there was this whole sort of societal weight. It wasn't just coming from the time. But I think rather than being pressured, it was just that there was this whole sort of societal weight. It wasn't just coming from the doctors. It was, you know, I'd literally never seen anyone like this. I'd never seen anyone in the street, at home, anywhere be asymmetric. And so it made me feel like I was the only person feeling like this. There's no representation of that anywhere, really. Well, you are blazing a trail on this. So tell us about the bra, the Uno, and how you designed it. You're an architect by trade, that must have helped.

Yeah, I mean, it's quite interesting designing something, going through a design process for something so different from what I normally do. But actually, there's many parallels going through a design process. Basically, it's a single cup and then it's flat on one side. And the whole idea was that I just wanted something that felt elegant and also really supportive to my breast. But also, one of the things that you don't realise before you have a mastectomy is that especially just after surgery, you're swollen. You have this, you know, most women have a bit of a seroma. So that's a buildup of fluid under the skin.

It's sensitive after radiotherapy. So wearing a normal bra with a tight bit of elastic underneath is really, really uncomfortable and stops that fluid being reabsorbed back into your body. So I wanted to create something which has a uniform amount of compression all the way across the scar tissue. So that just really kind of holds you in, but still gives you a really great shape on your boob, a bit of cleavage, and you know, just you still feel wonderful. Do you know, until I saw that do you know until i saw that you just held it up i didn't realize that that's what womankind needs it's absolutely beautiful but it's designed for a real woman's body for saying this is what i've been through but i'm still

feminine and gorgeous it's you've done a fantastic job oh thank you and i think what i find is so this is the bikini again again, holding this one up. And basically, I wear it all the time, you know, when I go swimming or at the beach. And I find that people sort of, they don't really notice because it's so sort of confidently asymmetric. I just walk around and at some point people will do a double take that you can see their mind tick, tick, ticking. Then eventually they put two and two together and then they just get over it. Yeah. And it's so empowering to just feel like I'm just me.

You know, I can just be me and I can feel great. Katie Marks, who's designed her own single mastectomy bra there. And you also heard from breast surgeon Asma al-Allak. Now, today marks 100 years since the birth of one of opera's most renowned and influential singers of the 20th century, the iconic heroine Maria Callas. She's mostly remembered as Puccini's Tosca, but her legacy includes the tragic Norma, the betrayed Lucia di Lammermoor and the doomed Violetta in La Traviata. But what is it about Maria Callas' talent that has transcended the decades? Since her death in 1977, her voice has been heard and revered by generations since. On the programme, I spoke to two sopranos,

Alison Langer and Nadine Benjamin, to illuminators. I began by asking Alison about when she first came across Maria Callas. My mum had lots of CDs of Maria Callas, actually, and one in particular that she would play every morning when we were getting ready for school, in fact. And I used to think, oh, I mean, she's got a lovely voice, but never really, you know, thought, oh, OK, you know, she's just a singer. And it wasn't really until I started properly training and really learned about technique and started performing myself that I

thought okay this woman is actually onto something here and she the the thing about Maria Callas is singing it's not just singing it is absolute honest performing and And her voice comes out like, it's an emotion you're hearing. It's not a singing voice. It's an emotion. So I watched a clip of her last night singing Visidati from Oscar at the Opera House. And by the end of it, it didn't sound like singing, it sounded like crying. So that is what she was incredible about it she was just honest to the core in every sound she made and that's how I thought okay I'm gonna listen to this lady more and really try and learn from her and uh how about you Nadine when did you first uh hear Maria and what what was the feeling well I've heard Maria quite. I was about 33, I think, 33, 34. And one that you've just played, the Casta Diva, and also the Il Trovatore d'Amor Solale Rose. I mean, it just, you know, hearing that in the Paris singing, I knew her state of mind.

And immediately my emotion, my heart opened and I was with her and I was inside the story and I was crying. And I knew when I heard her that if she could make me feel that, that is how I would love to make others feel with my voice. And she just had this such amazing work ethic about her she was all about preparation preparation preparation be ready be ready be ready and you could always hear that in her phrasing in her in the her coloratura just has her her short short assuredness and exactness in the way that she kind of delivered those arias to us yeah i mean i i don't know her work that well but when i've been i've been listening to a lot knowing that we were going to talk about it today and again just stopped me in my tracks just absolutely you have to just put everything down close your eyes and just disappear

into a voice like magic her voice is magic alison you've played Violetta in La Traviata twice and you look to Callas's performances and interviews for guidance don't you why is that why are you yeah well yeah I think the first when I first knew I was going to be singing Violetta for the first time I thought right I I have to get to the core of Violetta. Because the thing about her character is that it sort of requires three different voices. So as a soprano, in act one, you need the coloratura, which Maria did so well. The second act, you have to have the dramatic, lyric, beautiful, long phrase voice. And at the end, she's dying. So that is where you have to be an actress. And that is what she does. And I would listen to her, I would just be walking, listening

to Maria singing this. And, you know, she doesn't really sing, she sort of speaks, especially in the end and her pianissimo, the way she quietens down in her final a aria it's absolutely exquisite and it is just and I would just cry every time and I think what we can be guilty as is trying to you know trying to be a singer and being an actress like she was we try hard to do all of that but not many people can do that because you know in rehearsals when I was rehearsing that scene I just end up crying my eyes out and can't sing a note um so yeah I mean the whole story um the way she looked um the eyeliner the the striking beauty but I wonder Nadine what it actually took to be Maria Callas at that time a Greek woman who got to the top of her game like what

what did it take? Well I think it took a lot of stamina it took a lot of courage it took a lot of bravery she did suffer with nerves especially around singing so her internal world would have had to have really been really determined in how she was going to stand out in the world but I think you know she did things like she had trouble with her weight so she lost weight and she became this fashion icon I mean people who dressed her were like people like Yves Saint Laurent and Dior you know so she kind of made this kind of I don't know what I would call it like a an armor for herself that allowed her to be fragile because she was also really fragile as well and she and allowed her to be vulnerable so that she could express all of herself, the dark and the light. She often spoke about having this dual world of

Maria and Callas, and how would they both coexist. And, you know, she had such a deep work ethic. I mean, when she first started, she would go and sit in her voice teacher's lessons and watch every single student have a lesson. So she had this sheer dedication and also determination. And she was an eternal warrior. So she was going to be dedicated to this art. She was going to give you the last of herself. She was going to make sure that you felt something when you sang, that you were taken away on a journey in the story and she was never going to let you go. She was with you right until the end. Sopranos, Alison Langer and Nadine Benjamin there.

Igniting passion in all of us, I think, for Maria Callas. I'm going to spend the weekend listening to her. That's all from me on Weekend Woman's Hour, but join us again on Monday where we'll be joined by Kwasia, aka City Girl in Nature. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.