Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Female breadwinners, Married but living apart, Living with a terminal diagnosis, Traditional craftswomen

Episode Date: August 9, 2025

What happens when a woman earns more than her partner, or is the sole earner in a household? For some couples, it’s a practical arrangement that works well. For others, it can bring unexpected tensions, challenging traditional ideas about gender, identity and power. Listener Karla emailed the programme to say that she wanted to talk about what it means to be a female breadwinner. She joined Anita Rani along with Melissa Hogenboom, author of the book Breadwinners.After 30 years of marriage, Margaret Murphy moved from the family home in Australia to the UK—alone. Fifteen years later, she and her husband are still married, despite living on opposite sides of the world. She talks to Nuala McGovern about how she believes her later-life choices reflect a freer, more modern way to look at traditional married life. Listener Brenda wrote in about her situation: “I would love to hear you talking about a mother's play-book or instruction manual for getting through cancer. I would love to know how others are doing it.” Ailsa McDonagh also got in touch after an on-air shout out. She has been living with cancer for almost 10 years and received her diagnosis when her children were aged one and three. Both Brenda and Ailsa joined Anita to discuss.Mary-Havana Little is a traditional fibrous plasterer. She got in touch for Listener Week to suggest we talk about traditional crafts. Mary is one of the few women in the plastering world, working to create ornate decorative mouldings using techniques from hundreds of years ago. She joined Anita to speak about working in this male-dominated craft, and why she wants to inspire more women and girls into the industry.Listener Sally Ruffles describes herself as a 68-year-old woman with one daughter and no grandchildren. She got in touch with Woman's Hour for Listener Week to say: "There’s this common assumption that having grandchildren is always a wonderful thing. But nobody really stops to think that not having them might also be okay—or even a positive thing for some people." She joined Nuala with her daughter Hannah, who persuaded her mother to write to Woman's Hour, to discuss why it can be difficult to talk about not being a grandparent.To kick this week off, we heard from listener Melanie Williams. Melanie is forever having to adjust her seatbelt because of her bust size. She worries if she were to be in an accident she would end up choking or being strangled by her seatbelt rather than protected by it. Melanie joined Nuala, along with motoring journalist Maria McCarthy who has been looking into the issue.Jess wrote in to tell us about a poem she came across on social media about the post-partum period, calling it “absolutely beautiful”. She added: “There are hundreds of comments across Instagram and TikTok of mothers feeling exactly the same way. Please check it out, I would love to hear more from this poet.” We’ve tracked her down and her name is Amy Williams. She joined Nuala to perform the poem live in the studio.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Rebecca Myatt

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Margaret Murphy, who at the age of 57, decided to leave Australia and live out her dreams in London, leaving her husband behind, but remains happily married 15 years later, Can a long-distance marriage be a more modern way to stay married? How does your seatbelt feel when you're driving? One of our listeners says having a large bust means most seatbelts make for an uncomfortable drive. Why is that? And how much do car companies take women's anatomy into consideration

when it comes to safety? We were asked to track down the poet Amy Williams and ask her to perform her viral hit poem six to eight weeks. It's about the time after giving birth. So we did. Also, women not becoming grandmothers. Listener Sally wanted to explore the societal expectations that she's encountered on that front.

And a specialist decorative plasterer, one of the few female plasters in the country, Mary Havana Little. Many years ago, it was a bit like, oh, what is she doing here? You know, like my dad would take me on site and he'd get the side eye, but now people really respect me now for my work, but I've worked really hard to get where I am, so I think I deserved a little bit of respect. It's going to be a good one, so settle in.

But first, what happens when a woman earns more than her partner or is the sole earner in a household? For some couples, it's a practical arrangement that works well. For others, it can bring unexpected tensions, challenging traditional ideas about gender, identity and power. We're talking about being the female breadwinner, what it means emotionally, financially and socially. Well, listener Carla emailed us saying

My suggestion for Listener Week is to do something on women who do well in their careers surpassing their partner. I don't often feel that this theme is covered as normally you look at the other side women as caregivers or the ones that are underpaid. I'm a marketing director at an American tech firm. I'm married with a four-year-old and six-month-old.

I'm currently on maternity leave and I feel a huge amount of pressure to go back soon and full-time as I am the sole breadwinner. Am I alone in this, or is this an emerging trend? Well, I was joined by Carla and Melissa Hogan Boom, author of breadwinners and other power dynamics that influence your life. I began by asking Carla,

what made her want to get in touch with us to discuss this topic? Well, I guess this is something that has been on my mind for a long time. I've been the main breadwinner of my house for probably the best part of 10 years now. And certainly now that I'm on maternity leave for a second time, It's something that plays on my mind quite a bit, particularly as I am about to return to work again. And there's that feeling that, gosh, I really wish I could spend more time with my children. But, you know, I have to pay the bills. And so, yeah, it prompted me to write in.

I think as a consequence of being a breadwinner, I do feel a lot of pressure on my shoulders to keep going at full pelt. there really isn't an opportunity for me to drop down to going part-time, for instance, so that I could spend more time with my kids because, again, the bills need to be paid. And also, I do get anxious from time to time thinking about, gosh, what would happen if I did lose my job, you know, with emerging AI and things like that. Could at some point my job become redundant because of that. So I don't quite know what the answer is to that. But then the other observation I've had, and I would love to hear what Melissa has to say on this,

as a female breadwinner I still find myself picking up a lot of those traditional female responsibilities in the house such as cleaning and of course carrying the mother load and project managing our house and our family and I do wonder whether that is unique to myself or whether that is more of an emerging trend well before we ask Melissa and our listeners in fact we would love to hear whether your thoughts on this and if you can relate to what Carla's saying. Why do you think you're doing that? Yeah, it's a great question. I do think that my husband is capable of doing some of these things, but not necessarily to the same standard that I enjoy. And we often get into heated discussions around this, around what does a clean

kitchen look like. So for me, a clean kitchen is clean. But for him, it might still have crumbs on the counters and a few dishes out and the floor hasn't been hoovered and so for me I then feel like I need to take on that as well because I hate to say I mean I love my husband to pieces but I can't trust him with certain things to be done to the standard that I'd like and also as we were discussing a little bit before we came on live I don't necessarily want to be judged by other people for not keeping a clean house and I think that if people come into the house and they see it's not clean they'll think that it's me who hasn't cleaned it properly as opposed to actually it was my husband who did it. So yeah. We've got personal already, so we might as well keep

going. Can you sort of explain the setup at home a bit more? In terms of... With your husband and the childcare and how the home is managed with you being the sole breadwin? Yes, for sure. So I work full time and, well, I mean, at the moment, obviously I'm on maternity leave, but if we talk about when I'm working, I work full time. I typically clock off around 6pm, but sometimes it can go. a little bit later than that. From a child care perspective, we pay for four days of nursery for, at the moment, neither of the children are in nursery because I'm off, but very soon our four-year-old will start school, so that's great, and then our baby will be starting nursery, and he will be doing

four days a week. For that fifth day, the idea was really for my husband to pick up the child care and actually as it turns out my dad has really stepped up and he's been helping us a lot so shout out to the dads for you know coming in here he's been really good at helping out with those Fridays my husband he does work it's not that he doesn't work he's self-employed and he's very passionate about what he does and he does work hard but unfortunately it's just not bringing in an income that really can support our family it doesn't contribute in any material way So it does sort of land on me to pay for things. And then, yeah, from sort of getting cleaning done and those sorts of things that's, as I've already mentioned, primarily sits with myself.

It's not to say again that my husband doesn't do other things. There are things that he takes on like managing the car. We're doing a big house project at the moment. He's doing a lot of the DIY and things for that. So he does work hard. But again, the traditional things that normally sit with women, very. much full with me. Melissa. It's interesting to hear Carla say that because this chimes with the woman I spoke with.

So in all cases, every woman I spoke with and I spoke to dozens of men and women, they tend to do the majority of the household labour, whether they were the primary earners, so earning more or the sole earners. So this is earning the full household income. And the only situation where men were doing more at home was if they were the state-at-home dads during the week. But at the weekend, the women still tended to pick up the slack. And a lot of researchers point to the idea that women who are stepping outside of these gendered expectations, and they're so entrenched, we feel it, you know, the way we're brought up. Girls do more chores than boys from a very young age.

And women are judged on the way the household runs not in the same way that men are. And so women then overcompensate in their spare time, either because they feel guilty for not being there. Maybe they feel guilty for not working flexible. like you said. You don't see men, male breadwinners requesting more flexibility at work, but women feel judged for the way that they're doing child care in a way that men simply do not, and women are expected to work flexibly in the way that men are not. And so this translates to doing more at home, whether it's the visible load or even the mental load. So I think that's

the one that's hardest to crack. This is the anticipating, the researching, the deciding. It's not just the visible elements of the housework. And then what Carla said as well, the very gendered patterns that happen. You see women doing more of the everyday tasks and men chiming in and saying, well, I do my bit. I do the finances or the car, but those are not everyday tasks. And so in terms of leisure time, female breadwinners who earn more of the money, they are out the house more or working more hours,

they still have less leisure time than men, even if the men aren't in paid employment. Roughly how many women are the breadwinner in the UK? In the UK, it's about one and four couples, and it's been gradually rising. see similar trends in Europe. And why did you want to write this book? Well, I grew up in a household where my mother had the higher status job

and my father was at home a lot. So I was very much of the generation where I was thinking, I thought I could get, you know, go into the labor force and do whatever I want. I didn't ever think my gender would hold me back. And this definitely helped me progress in my career. And then when I came across research, because I write about gender inequality a lot, I came across research that showed that men's well-being is lower when they're, both, so men's well-being is lower when he's unemployed and she's out to work and his well-being

is higher if they're both unemployed. And that makes no economic sense. Yeah, explain. It makes no economic sense. And this is a well-being survey, so it's not looking in asking them deep questions about it. But the reason why is, again, it's tied to masculinity and expected norms of going out to the workforce and your identity being tied to the work. And so if you're both unemployed, there's not this visible discrepancy yeah the discrepancy whereas if you're unemployed and your female partner is

employed you see her go out to work every day and every day you're reminded that you're not providing Carla you're nodding yes I mean I actually have to say that I don't feel that this is the case in my relationship as it is today

my husband he said don't call it a low ego call it a non-fragile ego he is quite supportive of what I'm doing. I say very supportive of what I'm doing and he loves to see that I'm successful. That's not to say that it doesn't hurt him that he's not able to contribute more because I know that he would love to be able to do that, but it's not, they're not mutually exclusive. However, I have been in previous relationships where this would have been a really, really big issue and, you know, relationships where I was earning less than the man and he would hang that over my head and, you know,

remind me every day that, you know, not necessarily I should be contributing more financially, but that I should therefore, as a result, be doing a lot more to compensate for the fact that he's earning more. So I know the type of men that would feel very comfortable in a way of either earning more or just being unemployed alongside their counterpart as opposed to the woman going out and earning and them not earning. So, Melissa, do you think some of these, I mean, expectations, we've mentioned already, come from telling little girls, they can do anything, or in fact, actually saying to them that you must do everything, but not socialising boys in the same way. To use Gloria Steinem, she said, though we have the

courage to raise our daughters, more like our sons, we rarely have the courage to raise our sons like our daughters. I think how we raise our children plays a huge role. And you see this in norms where men perhaps have seen their mothers go out to work. earning more. They are less expecting of their wives to do more at home. So I spoke to some amazing fathers who were earning less. And they, you know, the one, the common thread was the ones who are happy in their marriage and happy to see their wives earning more had witnessed their mother going out to work. Listener Carla and Melissa Hogan Boom. And the next day after the program had gone out, we had this text from Carla. When I got home yesterday afternoon, my

kitchen was spotless. The floor had even been mocked something my husband admitted he'd never done before. Turns out all I needed to do to get him to do it was to speak on national radio. Well, Carla, we're glad we could help. Now, can a marriage thrive when you live half a world away from one another? Well, our next guest emailed us about how after 30 years of marriage, she made the bold decision to move away from the family home in Australia and to the UK alone. 15 years later, she and her husband, Peter, are still happily married, despite living at opposite sides of the world. She believes her later life choices reflect a freer, more modern way to look at traditional

married life, one that may appeal to others. Margaret Murphy joined Nula, and she started by asking her why she wanted to tell her story. I just had a complete transformation of my life. And 15 years ago, I was living a traditional lifestyle. I was a full-time homemaker looking after four children. in a big house and garden in the suburbs of Brisbane. I was married to Peter, a doctor, and it was a very conventional sort of set up.

Peter worked, he paid the bills. While I didn't work, and so I was financially dependent on him, my job was to look after the children and the house. And it was that way for the previous 30 years. But I've gone from that situation 15 years later to now where I am a older career woman in London. I travel the world. I've made a whole set of new lovely friends.

And I live in my small, cosy flat in London alone. So I've done all of that while still staying married to Peter and all of that on the other side of the world. And it's been a wonderful experience. So you were 57 when you took that massive leap. What did Peter think at that point when you says I'm heading to London? And you were on good terms. I just want to make this really clear.

Very good terms, yes. He gave me his blessing. Because if I could just back up a bit the previous several years, I'd gone back to university when my own children were at university. And I wanted to do some, you know, more study. And I graduated many years later with a PhD in linguistics, applied linguistics. And it was at that point that I got the idea to come and live in London.

And I thought, where will my new qualifications take me? Will I lead to a job? Because I hadn't had a real full-time job up to that point. And so Peter gave me his blessing. He said it was a good idea. And, you know, I earned it after all my years of study. But did you talk about your marriage, what was going to happen to your marriage, if you were half a world away? Well, it's kind of grew organically, really.

I didn't really plan to stay as long as I have in London. but you know it's sort of morphed into a different situation but but what happens is Peter comes over to visit me in London which he really enjoys and I go back to to Brisbane in the family home for holidays as well but how often do you see each other well we see each other I'd say about every year to 18 months that's quite a long time I mean do you still consider yourself romantic partner intimate partners, like marriage in that sense? Well, I guess we, you know, our marriages, we've been married, as I said, for 45 years.

We've brought up four daughters together. We were a good team when we were bringing up the children. But it was at the point where when they grew up and left home, that, you know, there was an opportunity to do something different. And it was at that point where it became obvious that Peter and I had different goals for that stage in our life. He was more concerned with, you know, he wanted to stay in the family home,

continue working, follow the same routine, whereas I saw it as an opportunity to do something different now. And I knew the time was now, and I didn't want to leave it until I got too old or too sick or something. I knew the time was now. So I took that challenge.

With that, however, because I did read that you remain faithful, to one another. I'm coming back to kind of that idea of the relationship. So there's no other, because it's a long time to be away from somebody you know, a companion or a life buddy and lots of people have understandings like that within a marriage.

That's not you two. Well, I think we're an older married couple now. We, as I said, we sort of have different life goals at that particular time in our lives when we're older. But it's certainly the case that I know we only see each other once every year to 18 months. There's still a lot of

communication going on in between. I tell Peter everything about my exciting life in London. I tell him about my work, which is great. I tell him about my new friends. I tell him about my travel. And he loves that. It's given him a sort of another interest in life. The same as when he comes over to London, he loves that. It's given him another dimension in his life. So there's a lot of positives there that you talk about. And I can see your energy and how energised you are by it. But what are the disadvantages would you say? Well, that's right. I don't want anyone to think it's been all plane sailing. It hasn't. It's been, I've had a very difficult few years when I first, when I first arrived in London. I arrived here on my own and I didn't

have a job. I didn't have anywhere to live. I didn't know anyone here. I didn't have any knowledge. And I felt very vulnerable and afraid. And I knew I was taking a big risk because I didn't even know if I'd be able to do it and I didn't even know if I would like it but you know I thought well I'm willing to take the risk but on a personal level the disadvantages are for Peter that he's living he's still living in the same family home in Brisbane and he doesn't socialise that well on his own and he may feel a bit lonely there he says he misses my parties which I used to organise and for me, the disadvantage is in a personal level are that I've got nobody to go out to a nice

restaurant with or to accompany me to a formal event or even just to, you know, ask opinion of at night time about a particular problem that I've had in the day. That companion. Companion, yeah. I haven't, I don't have that. And there's also another disadvantage over the years I've experienced from time to time. I experience a bit of tension because I'm not doing what society says. I should. I'm not being a good housewife and mother and staying in Brisbane. I'm doing something

else. So it's a conflict of interest, wifely duties, as opposed to doing something that I want to do in later life. Do you think you will ever go back to Brisbane? Well, I think I will because you know, Peter's there. And back to Peter. And back to Peter. I was just home for two months last Christmas. That's quite a long time. Yeah. So it was It was lovely and, yes, I will. And as we both age, there is more of a focus on me returning to Brisbane. A very happily married Margaret Murphy. Now, listener Brenda Drum contacted us about what to say to children if you've received a diagnosis of cancer.

This is a really difficult subject which some might find upsetting. Brenda wrote to us and said, I'd love to hear you talking about a mother's playbook or instruction manual for getting through cancer, especially an incurable cancer where you feel you're almost dying out loud in front of your children through most of their childhood. I feel I've been doing it since my kids were two and nine. They're now 29 and 21.

Well, the Woman's Hour community is wonderful and after we ask people to get in touch with their experiences, Elsa MacDonald emailed. Elsa has been living with bowel cancer for almost 10 years and found out it was incurable four years ago. She received her initial diagnosis when her children were one and three. Both Brenda and Elsa joined me

and I started by asking Brenda to take us back to when she received her diagnosis. What was going through her mind when she thought of her children? My kids at the time were two and a half and nine, so the thoughts that went through my head were very, very different. Regarding both of them,

I felt that I had a very intuitive, very clever nine-year-old who at that age already didn't do platitudes or and was very, very in tune with me. And then the two and a half year old, for me, it was just about explaining to him why I would have to be away for so much of that year. I was 10 weeks in total in hospital in 2007. And I suppose for me, the issue was by the time

that somebody came to me to sort of have a word with me about how I might approach this, you know, with a professional background, I'd already had to have the conversation with our nine-year-old daughter. And it, you know, it went okay. I suppose looking back now, what I realize is that you can never, you can't underestimate or you can never really guess what questions or what concerns a kid is going to have a couple of hours after we told her.

She was driving home with her dad in the car and she said to him, are we going to be able, are we going to lose our house now because mom isn't able to work and will we be able to afford the mortgage? Now, I would never have put that on a list of possible questions that she would have. But I suppose for her it was the reassurance that her world, her immediate world, wasn't going to change fundamentally. Her safety net, her place of refuge. So that was something that you just had to roll with. And my husband reassured her.

But again, that wasn't a question that I expected. And that's the thing with being a one with cancer. You just never know what questions are going to come at you. What advice was available? it came a few hours later. What was given to you? There was a social worker who was available, but actually it came a couple of days later that, because I had asked if somebody could help me just to put into words or what I should or shouldn't say to a nine-year-old. And in the end, I didn't manage, as I said, to have that conversation with the experts. So I just had to wing it

and go with it. And we decided that we would tell her what we felt was appropriate for a nine-year-old to hear. And looking back now, I know that she knew more than we told her. And I knew, I mean, she was seeing bouquets of flowers coming to the house. She was seeing all these relatives and landing who she probably only ever saw at weddings and funerals. So she was suspicious that this was something a lot more serious before I actually got around to telling her. And actually, we didn't really tell her how serious it was until after I found out that my transplant had worked. and at that point she said I knew it was something much darker

than what you had told me at the time and I suppose when she was 14 then she came back to me she had a little bit of a wobble where she got upset and I said to her what is it is something happening and she said no it's you I'm worried that something will happen to you when I'm not around

I suppose it's that caretaker mode so in that conversation as a 14 year old she made me promise her that if I was told that there was no more treatment steps, that it was basically palliative care or hospice, that I would tell her because she said, there are things that a daughter needs to do for her mother if she knows that she's going to die.

And I think that was probably the most difficult conversation that I've ever had all through the treatment and through the last 18 years. But I suppose it really made me realise that there is no perfect playbook. There is no playbook for being a mother who's going to. going through cancer and that in many ways that you will have to go through these questions and answers, you know, depending on the age of your children, as they grow and as the cancer remains something that hangs over us as a shadow, there will be different and

possibly more difficult conversations as they get older and come to the realization of, I suppose, mortality. Yeah. Sure. And what can help is support, particularly talking to somebody who's gone through a similar experience, albeit different. I have to say, you did mention that you did have a very precocious nine-year-old. I mean, the question that she was asking and the way she thinks, I mean, what a remarkable young daughter, or not so young anymore, that you have. I'm going to bring in Ailsa, because Ailsa did get in touch after we put out, you know, your email initially to say, is anybody else want to talk to you about it? And I'm going to get you to talk to each other because I think it's really important. But first, Elsa, if you could, welcome to the program, by the

way. Share a bit of your experience what you thought about what Brenda just said and what was going through your mind about how to tell your children when you got your diagnosis. Yes, obviously my children were a lot younger and our initial instinct was to protect them. So we actually tried naively to hide how serious maybe things were. There were one and three. So it was an easy, well, we thought it was an easy thing to be hiding. So we would say, you know, mummy's poorly and she needs some medicine and she's going to have a visit to the hospital and she's having some surgery so she'll be away for a bit but it was actually and when our arms were twisted a bit because it was out in the school community and when they were older much older they're kind of years

four and two or three at school and that we actually used the word cancer and I thought they took it really well because we told them what it actually was and they went off and played and I thought, oh, that was easier than I thought. But like Brenda said, the questions came later as they processed. So days later or weeks later. And one of the things that eventually came out from my eldest, a boy, he said, but mum, why did you lie to us all that time? Why did you lie and say, why didn't you tell us it was cancer? And it was a really difficult question to answer. And the reason was because adults are scared of the word cancer. and we didn't want an adult to say something to them, if they said to somebody, oh, my mom has cancer, and for the adults to look frightened, we thought, you know, if we just tried to hide that scary word for them,

but actually, by hiding the words cancer and chemotherapy and tumor, looking back, we should have used all the proper language from the beginning, because it, well, now that, at the time, we didn't know how long we would be living with cancer, but to live as a family for almost 10 years with it, another family member almost unwanted in the house. It's important to be able to talk about it with the proper language and be honest with them. Is there any advice given to you about that,

about what were you give? What were you told? I was very lucky that I had a wonderful GP who asked me right at the beginning, would you like a referral to the local hospice? And it was really frightening. I thought hospice was only for people at end-of-life care. I didn't realize it was for anybody with a life limiting illness. And I was referred to my local hospice, Pendleside Hospice. It's absolutely amazing place. I've had counseling. My children received counseling. My husband has had counseling. My mom has had counseling. It's given us all a language to be able to talk about how we feel about it. It's made an open subject. For example, now they're older. One of the counselors said to me, they've mentioned that they hear you and your husband whispering about it sometimes in

the house. And they're worried what you're talking about, why you're whispering, why is it not, you know, louder? And so when I talked to them at home and said, well, one of the reasons that we whisper sometimes is we don't necessarily have all the information. We know that there's been a scan, but we don't know what the results are, or we haven't spoken to the oncologist about what this means, or, you know, my chemotherapy stopped working. We need to swap to another one. We don't know what it will be. And I said, do you want us to tell you all these bumps in the road along the way? Or just when we have full information, do you want to know? And they both actually said, actually, can you keep with

whispering and just tell us when you know the big stuff because we don't want to know all the ups and downs and all the waiting. We don't want to do that. And it didn't occur to me that because they were one and three when they started, they had no agency and choice. But now that they are older, you know, they're 13 and 10. They have, I need to remember that they have a choice in what information they receive, how they receive it, if they want to carry on seeing a counselor, if they feel they don't need it. And like Brenda was saying, really resonated with me, it changes as they get older. Their needs change. And the support that they can access also changes this, you know, young carers as they are in maybe more of a caring role for me as my health declines will be something that we need to look at and consider

as well. Well, I'm going to get you to talk to each other directly. I mean, what was some of the hardest questions that you've had to field, both of you, Brenda? And feel free to talk to one another. I think it's important you do in fact. Yeah, Elsa, it's lovely to, we had a little chat before we came on. But Elsa, it's lovely to hear just so much of my experience mirrored in your experience. I suppose for me, one of the hard things with kids and especially my two-year-old at the time was the hair loss because he used to love sitting and brushing my hair. And when I eventually lost all my hair, he came over to me that evening and said, can I brush your hair?

I had no hair. So he came over and brushed my bald head. So I think kids can teach us a lot. I'm sure you've found that as well, Ilsa. Kids can teach you a lot about how you should just be yourself and not try to be someone different. But I suppose for me, as a mom as well, it was giving myself that permission.

Not to stop being mammy, but giving myself permission to have that time where I was the patient first. And that was a very hard transition. your kids will show, I suppose my kids certainly showed me the way and they, now that they're much older, they give me that permission to, you know, to be sick or if I have an off day. I don't know if you find that as well, Elsa. Yeah, I think sometimes they have better advice than I give myself because I'll say, why don't you just sit down? Why don't you just have a sit down for 10 minutes if you're that tired? You don't have to paint the whole wall today.

No, take a break. Just take a break. It doesn't matter. I think the other things you don't know. when the questions are going to come. I've practiced some of the more difficult questions. You're just making tea and chopping a carrot and all of a sudden this really dark question will appear. And you think, oh, I wasn't ready for this question. How am I supposed to feel it? And I've had to go back and fix questions and say, do you know what I said this morning? I think really what I should have said is something different and change it because you just don't know when they're going to ask you what. Alsa McDonough. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard, there are links on the

woman's our website. Still to come on the program, one of you got in touch to ask us to track down the woman behind the poem six to eight weeks. We did. Her name is Amy Williams. You'll hear it at the end of the program. My next guest is Mary Havana Little. Mary got in touch on Instagram to ask us to talk about traditional crafts after hearing our interview with Cathedral Stonemason Rachel Ragg during last year's listener week. 30-year-old Mary is one of the few women in the plastering world working as a traditional fibrous plasterer. She creates ornate decorative mouldings using techniques from hundreds of years ago.

Well, Mary joined me in the studio and I started by asking her what she actually does. Yeah, so being a traditional fibrous plasterer, I do a lot of heritage work and restoration work and we also take on a lot of new builds. building there so I manufacture and we create a lot of the mouldings and casts for ornamental plaster work so all your cornices, fireplaces corbels so you know when you go into an old

sort of National Trust building look up at the ceiling you see all the plasterwork that's what we do it looks amazing and what's pretty hypnotic about watching you do it is that the process is really interesting so describe it so we use all the tradition methods that was used sort of like 500 years ago and all the same materials so yeah it's quite

a process where we first of all you start off with you know what we're repairing or say it's a drawing we're of a corb or a ceiling rose we get it made in clay and then we bring it back to the yard and we mould it and then yeah so we get the mould out and then the process of actually making it starts and it's quite a quick process people seem to think it takes you know hours for plaster to set but it doesn't it takes about 10 minutes and some of the pieces you're working on can be three metres long and up to 50 kilograms? Oh yeah, we make some massive stuff. Yeah, we've made a lot bigger than three meters as well. So you kind of need the strength of Laura. Oh yeah, we do. I could do of Laura in the yard

actually. She'd be really handy. Hang on. We can might get her back in. So it doesn't take very long. How did you learn the skill? What got you into it? So it's actually my father's trade, his craft. So he started sort of in late 80s, 90s. He took on an apprenticeship in London and then he went to college, went to the Guild and learnt that, and then he taught my brother. And I was always very interested in my dad's work. I always wanted to sort of follow my dad and brother to the workshop.

So, yeah, one day he said, right, let's make a plaster, a moulder out of you, and that's what we done. Which is great, obviously. You could have done that because he's your dad and he does it, but what made you want to take it up as a trade? I think just I always loved being messy and creating. I loved art as a child, so anything I could sort of make,

with my hands or even fix, I loved doing that. So it was just quite a natural thing for me to go into and it always being around me and I loved buildings, architecture. Like I said, drawing was like my favourite thing when I was little, so I loved drawing buildings. So it just sort of progressed from there. It was like a natural. Is it a male-dominated industry?

Oh, massively, yeah. So what's their reaction to you? Many years ago it was a bit like, oh, what is she doing here? You know, like my dad would take me on site and he'd get the side eye, but now, yeah, people, yeah, people really respect me now for my work, but I've worked really hard to get where I am, so I think I deserved a little bit of respect, I guess. Absolutely. So how did you earn it? Just by grafting.

Just by grafting every day, yeah, learning. I kept getting things wrong constantly and kept trying again, and I think that's your main, that's how you learn best, is basically getting things wrong and just keep going and going, trying again. Yeah, and that comes up quite a lot in various guises and conversations we have on Women's Hour. But what is it in you that may be? Do you want to keep going when you were going?

It was just that drive for me to be the best female out there as well because I didn't see any other girls. And when I was little, I think having like celebrities, loads of little kids look up to people. There wasn't a tradeswoman to look up to. So I had to become sort of my own. But yeah, like you say, it's really important for you to represent a woman doing something.

It is. I want to represent all the young ladies, you know, and I've got such a great support around me. So I think what it is being a woman in these male-dominated industries, is you have to have that female support around you to push you through. Otherwise, it's difficult. You are actually quite high-end. I mean, you make these, I mean, it's beautiful stuff that you make

and it's lovely to watch. But you worked on some really big films. Oh, I've worked on some really big film sets. Yeah, some really good stuff. Also, some beautiful homes. And, you know, now I'm Mo Freeman of the Guild of Plasters in London as well. So I got that respect and recognition. So that was great.

What's your advice to other women who might want to get into this industry or even just to step outside their comfort zone and try something new. That's it. It's like I said, having that support and having that drive. If you find something

that you're really passionate about and that you feel yourself that you can go into, you just really got to push yourself and not listen to what anyone else is saying around you. If you've got a vision, you've just got to go for it and really push yourself, be confident.

Best film set that you've worked on? Go on, name drop some things for us. Oh, the Gentleman 2 series. We love that. Yeah, we did the statues for that. Guy Ritchie. Guy Ritchie, yeah. It's, yeah, I think we come in about episode five.

It's the St. Mary statues. Yeah, me and my brother made them along with my dad. Absolutely love that because that was like a bit of a dream working for Guy Ritchie. And have you got an ambition of what you want to do? Yes, I would love to, well, I'd like to get my plaster work out there on a bigger scale, but I would also in the future like to start up some training programs for young women. Not just to go into the trades, but I'd like them to go into like a heritage trade. You know, like I said like fibrous plaster in.

You've got thatched roofers, blacksmiths, all these trades. There's no young ladies and they could really do with them because we've got a little bit of finesse. We've got something a little bit different about us. Mary Havana Little there. And if you're curious to know more, there is a video of Mary inaction on our Instagram feed, which is at BBC Woman's Hour.

We're still clearing up the plaster she left in the studio. Now, a grandparent has silver in their hair and gold in their heart. It's the kind of sentimental quote that often comes up about grandparents. But for Woman's Hour listener Sally Ruffles, who suggested our next discussion, it's the expectations about being a grandparent that she wants to challenge. She says there's this common assumption that having grandchildren is always a wonderful thing, but nobody really stops to think that not having them might also be okay, or even a positive thing for some people.

While Sally joined Nula along with her daughter, Hannah, who had encouraged her to contact Woman's Hour, here's what they had to say. Well, I think, you know, we're sort of almost conditioned that becoming a grandparent will be part of the natural order of things. You know, we grow up, we get married, we have children, and then eventually we will have grandchildren, and probably I was no exception to that. I thought that would probably be the course of my life as well.

And it hasn't turned out like that, as life often doesn't. I have found increasingly over the years that if you're not a grandmother or a grandparent suddenly the conversation stops people love talking about their grandchildren of course they do and sharing photographs and stories and everything

but if you can't reciprocate the conversation suddenly ends because you can't join in and sometimes it feels as though you're not part of the club if you like, it's a bit of an exclusive club that you can't be a member of. Also, you know, I've read on more than one occasion

how wonderful it is to look into the eyes of your newborn grandchild for the first time. That's never going to happen to me and to a lot of people. Do you feel, I think you're saying, you don't feel that people are sensitive to the fact that you're not a grandmother or may not become a grandmother.

Maybe they just don't think about. it, maybe they just don't think about it, you know, and perhaps I wouldn't have done if I'd have become a grandparent as well, which is often the way, you know, but yeah, I sometimes I have come across people of engaging in conversation with them. They do talk about their grandchildren, obviously, and if I say, I haven't got grandchildren, and then I go on to say, my daughter doesn't actually want to have any children. I have found suddenly the conversation stops and we quickly move on to something else.

Now that may be uncomfortable for people. I don't know. They don't know what to say. But it leaves me feeling a bit, well, hang on a minute. You know, what's the problem here? Is the problem with me? Is it with my daughter's choices? I mean, I've always said, you know,

Hannah was not put on this earth to provide me with grandchildren. children. Her life is, and what she chooses to do with her life, is far more important to me. And I certainly don't spend my time feeling a victim or, you know, crying into my coffee or whatever. I get on with my life. And there are many positives. And I just feel that in 2025, we should be able to perhaps have more of a conversation around our children's choices or, you know, there's an alternative. I understand. And obviously you've struck a nerve because I have a lot of comments that are coming in and I'm going to read some of them in just a moment. But you also wrote in your email,

you're very honest about being sad, from time to time about what might have been. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Yes. Well, in my head, I always thought that I would enjoy being a grandmother because perhaps I'd have more time to spend with my grandchildren than perhaps I did with my daughter because, you know, it was busy. I was working. I had other responsibilities. So I thought, oh yes, this would be great. I'll be able to do the cooking perhaps I didn't do with her, the arts and crafts, taking them out and about, just being interested, being, you know, someone else that they could talk to as they got older and so on. So, yeah, they're the sadnesses that I know that I won't. experience. I'm interested in the world. I'm interested in young people and children and I don't want to lose touch. You know, when you don't have direct involvement, it is quite easy, obviously. So I do try to keep myself informed with everything that's going on because that won't be my personal experience. I have to come to Hannah here. I'm wondering how did you feel when you saw

what she had written. And you did suggest that she contact women's hour. I did. I did. Yes. I encouraged her to write in, but it's something we talked about last year. And in fact, that she, I didn't know she'd written in

until she'd pressed send. And so I asked her to forward the email. And as mum said, she's always, her line has always been, you weren't put on this earth to provide me with grandchildren. So we've always had quite an honest discussion about it. I think probably when I read her email

and she covered quite a lot of points. She was quite honest about perhaps that, you know, what she was missing out on. And so seeing that in black and white, I don't think that did me any harm. I think it made me recognise that possibly sometimes she's protected me from that. She perhaps hasn't been quite as open in discussions

about that other side because she has been so conscious that she doesn't want me to feel a sense of obligation or guilt that I haven't been able to provide that. But I'm pleased that we can have that honesty with each other because she can say that without it having, making me feel guilty or responsible. Or pressure. Exactly.

She's allowed to feel like that. And this is a situation. How lovely. How lovely to hear that open conversation. Shall we read some of the comments that have come in? Okay. Let me see. This is our daughter is a career hybrid.

flyer. She does not and has never wanted children. I'm quite often asked if I have any grandchildren. From my own point of view, it's her life and I'm happy with her choice. My husband is sad about it, but has never said so to her. It's her life. Her choice will support her with or without grandchildren. Another,

I never wanted grandchildren or to be a granny. Having children is a decision which should be left to individual couples. Parents do not have the right to pressure their children into turning into grandparents. That said, I have two lovely grandchildren. I suppose there seems to be with everything I'm hearing, a kind of a road not travelled or an ambivalence in some ways.

But I think also for you, Sally, there's a lot of people that understand what you're saying. Yeah, yes, which is lovely to hear, actually, because, I mean, I do have a couple of friends without grandchildren, actually. But most of my friends and peer group do have grandchildren. I think also, Hannah, you've decided not to have children. you will also not become a grandmother. Yeah, precisely. Yes, and actually I think this has actually made me think about that because obviously I do have the similar conversation

around my own peers about choosing not to have children. So it's given me advance warning that this might be something that I experience again later in life. A wonderfully frank and open conversation between Sally and her daughter Hannah Ruffles there. Now, seatbelts, we all have to wear them. But for listener Melanie Williams, it can be an issue. She texted the program saying,

I have a large bust. I know I'm not the only woman who has a large bust. I'm forever having to adjust my seatbelt to move it from across my neck where it sits because my bust stops it lying across my chest. If I were to be in an accident, I worry I would end up choking or being strangled by my seatbelt rather than protected by it.

Why is there not a body shape adjustment fitting for seatbelt? So is there a way to adjust a seatbelt safely to accommodate a larger bust? And how, if at all, has the design changed over the years? Neula was joined by listener Melanie Williams and by motoring journalist and author of Driving Test Confidence, Maria McCarthy. She began by asking Melanie, what happens to her seatbelt when she's driving? You put your seatbelt on, it sits across the middle of your chest. You think, oh, that's wonderful.

And you start to drive, your arms move. And as soon as your arms move, the seatbelt rides up over the seatbelt. the top of your breast and suddenly it's across your throat and you pull it down and it goes back across your chest and then move your arms because you're driving and it goes across your throat and it's a constant readjustment as I'm driving that and as it sits across my throat I'm thinking if I mean God forbid but if it were to happen I was to have an accident while that seatbelt was across my throat would it kill me would it strangle me would it break my neck would it choke me and I know I'm not the only person this happens to I've

spoken to, you know, lots of friends and just ask them, do you have that same problem? Lots of them have large busts and they say the same, but actually some women who don't have large busts are telling me the same thing. And it just feels like there should be a way to make a seatbelt fit women because it's not just me. I know it's not just me. No, it's definitely not because a plethora of people have got in touch with their stories on what they're thinking about this particular issue. Also, I believe, you drive a number of different cars. You work in farming.

Tell me a little bit whether you found any difference in the various vehicles. None at all. My day-to-day car has a slider that adjusts the height of the seatbelt coming across.

And I thought, oh, perhaps that's the answer. It's not. The farm truck doesn't have that. There is no answer. Camper van has a slider, but it doesn't work. So whatever,

I do, whatever I'm driving, I've got this worry at the back of my mind. I hope I drive carefully and safely all the time. But accidents do happen and I just worry that if that were to happen, how many women are being damaged by their seatbelts? I definitely don't think we shouldn't be using them, but I just think they should be safe for women to use. Well, let us turn to Maria McCarthy, a motoring journalist who is with us. Maria, the law was introduced. making mandatory for drivers and front seat passengers to wear a seatbelt back in 1983. But did the issue of gender disparity ever come up? No, never.

In fact, the idea of like general body disparity didn't. In the 60s and 70s, they had these crash test dummies, which are basically based on a man who's 5.9, 171 pounds. His name is Hybrid 3. And believe it or not, hybrid 3 is still in action today. They haven't really changed him. So it hasn't actually adapted for the fact that, you know, men are bigger these days, hasn't adapted for women or any other body type.

And some car manufacturers are using people who are dummies who aren't hybrid three. But actually, no, it was just this one random man. And as long as he's okay, it's all good. Let's go back even one step. How are seatbelts meant to protect us? Well, initially, you just had a little lap belt across the waist. But then it developed into what's called the three-point seatbelt, which goes across the chest. And the idea is that if you're in an impact, then things like the shoulder, you know, the ribs and the pelvis take the impact rather than the sort of soft abdominal organ.

And so it hasn't changed from that three-point design since then, despite whatever way you may be autonomically? Well, the three-point design actually is really good. But the problem is the fact that the dummy is the same. Because what needs to happen, you know, that car industry and car safety is come on in leaps and bounds. It really has. It's very committed. And this is why, when I was researching this, I was just so surprised that of all the things they've done, the car test dummies are same, because if you have a range of dummies, then you can put those dummies in different situations. You can try out different types of seatbelt.

but that just hasn't really happened. And so now, women actually, in a car crash, women have fewer car accidents than men, but they are 17% more likely to die in one. Oh, my goodness. Do we know why? I think it has got to do a lot with the fact that, you know, a lot of car safety hasn't really caught up

with the fact that, you know, women's bodies are different, you know, things like to fight, you know, how they react in an impact is different, you know, from that of a man. And so, you know, yes, that's a sitting position is going to be different as well. And that can't basically really need to look at that

very, very seriously and very quickly as well. Well, Maria, you've been doing, looking into this for us. I was just wondering whether you've heard this complaint before that Melanie has brought up. Oh, so many times since I've started looking into it. You know,

I've got quite a small bus. It has never been an issue for me. But I put it out on social media group I'm in. And I was inundated by women saying things that just what Melanie has said, it goes up around their neck. One woman tries to drive along, holding it away from her neck, which is very distracting as a driver, apart from anything else. And of course, if she was in a crash, it wouldn't really, you know, make any effect. Some of them have tried buying these things it can get online, which are these are like, no, seatbelt adjusters. But I was talking to faction research, which is an automotive research body.

And they advised against using those because they say they might feel more comfortable in the moment. But it sort of throws the whole balance out if you see it. I mean, if you use these things you buy online. Here's an anonymous when they come in. I can't believe uncomfortable seatbelts are only just being discussed. As a 70-year-old, ample busted woman, I've spent 50 years pulling at my seatbelt while driving.

It is so annoying. Let me go back to you, Melanie. What do you think, all the messages that are coming in and what you've heard from Maria? I'm so glad it's not just me. I thought perhaps I was being a bit precious about myself. But the more I talk to other women, the more I hear people who are contacting the programme. It's amazing that we sit and take absolutely, we just allow that to happen rather than making a fuss. Melanie Williams and Maria McCarthy speaking to Noola there.

Now let's end with poetry. Our listener Jess wrote to us to tell us about a problem. poem she came across on social media about the postpartum period, calling it absolutely beautiful. She said there are hundreds of comments across Instagram and TikTok from mothers feeling exactly the same way. Please check it out. I'd love to hear more from this poet. Well, we tracked her down. Her name is Amy Williams. She's a poet and spoken word artist and here she is performing her poem six to eight weeks. I'm hobbling around using a pram like a crutch. Not sure what's on. I wasn't told this much. The machine that she grew in is grown in, sprung leaks. Why is this

still going on? After six to eight weeks? See, six to eight weeks is the time frame you'll find if you've just given birth and you want peace of mind. Internet, baby books, health visitors ashore. Six to eight weeks, you'll feel normal once more, but it's ten weeks and I'm using a pram like a crutch, throbbing underneath where they stitched after I was cut, and ache in my spine every step feels abnormal what do you expect you asked for that epidural six to eight weeks to heal from nine months of stretching head in the toilet throat burning and retching six to eight weeks we get 56 days to bounce back from the 280 it takes for their bodies to be made 280 days of organs moving to make room abdomen sore as it swells and balloons 280 days of shifting rib cage and hips so why am i embarrassed that i can't

sits after just 56, crying on the toilet putting off going for a piss, crying when I imagine the sorry state of my bits, crying as I tried to latch her onto my sore tits, they say they told me everything they didn't tell me this. Yeah, midwives did tell me about monitoring my contractions and anti-nator classes told me everything that might happen on the day that baby came. I got all the bits of birth as I clutch her pram like a crutch, I wonder, are we not worth being told that no two bodies, of course, no two births can be the same. Why are we given all the same measures? Why are the same timeframes? Why was I pushed into a race of millions of mothers till get back in work or the gym or the bedroom before one another? And in this race of millions, I feel nothing but

alone. So is it any wonder when I tell the GP now? No, I don't have worries. No, I don't feel ill. No, I don't think I need help yet. I'll go back on the pill and I'm not alone. I'm not this cautionary lesson. I'm just one in ten experiencing postpartum depression. There's about one in 25 with post-traumatic stress disorder but there's no resources and so it is a bit too late to warn them. So why aren't we acting early before people become statistics, give out advice on postpartum, tea bags, biscuits, replace trainers for slippers, scrap this race back to health, slow down, get to know your new self. Let's ply them with information about pyjamas, and tea. Give their body grace. Don't treat it like a machine because they're human, struggling,

using a pram, like a crutch, hoping somebody will notice this is all a bit too much. Amy Williams there performing her poem six to eight weeks. That's it from me. Thanks to all of you who are involved in Listener Week. It really is a highlight in the Women's Hour calendar. Now, on Monday, join Noola when she'll speak to the lionesses number one. That's right, Hannah Hampton, England goalkeeper whose heroic saves helped England lift the Euros trophy two weeks ago. You won't want to miss it.

Have a lovely weekend.