Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Foreign Secretary Liz Truss MP on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe's release, Barbara Lisicki & Cook for Ukraine

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

As Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe comes home after six years in Iranian detention, Emma spoke to the Foreign Secretary Liz Truss MP about what it took to secure her release along with another British-Iranian hostage Anoosheh Ashoori. In true popstar fashion, singer Rihanna announced her pregnancy in January with a New York photoshoot alongside her boyfriend, the rapper ASAP Rocky, wearing a bright pink coat, with layers of gold jewellery and chains resting on her new baby bump. And since that announcement, she’s been seen wearing a number of eye-catching outfits. But is there a bump fashion revolution coming? And what could this mean for the everyday pregnant woman? We speak to celebrity stylist Jennifer Michalski-Bray and pregnant content creator Zara Bentley.The history of civil rights changed when Barbara Lisicki met Alan Holdsworth. The two were disabled cabaret performers in the 1980s when they met, fell in love and founded the disabled people’s Direct Action Network (DAN). They became the driving force behind the campaign that ultimately led to the passing of the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act. A new BBC Two drama, Then Barbara Met Alan, tells their story. Anita Rani hears from the real-life Barbara Lisicki, and Ruth Madeley, the actor who plays her.Even in the face of war, food has a special power in bringing people together. Russian Chef Alissa Timoshkina and Ukrainian Chef Olia Hercules are best friends who have joined forces to set up Cook for Ukraine, a culinary campaign raising funds to support the humanitarian effort in Ukraine. They are encouraging people to celebrate Ukrainian and Eastern European culture by cooking traditional food. They talk about their experiences as friends from opposing frontiers.Presented by Anita Rani Produced: Surya Elango Editor: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I'm Anita Rani. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. This is the show where we offer you some of the best and must-hear interviews from across the week just gone. In today's programme, you'll hear from Foreign Secretary and Women's Minister Liz Truss on meeting Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe as she touched down on British soil this week. We'll also be exploring changing trends in pregnancy wear. We meet the real-life Barbara Lysicki, a co-founder of the Direct Action Network,

which successfully convinced the Conservative government to pass the Disability Discrimination Act in 1995, and Ruth Maidley, the actor who plays her in a new BBC Two drama. And we'll also hear from Russian and Ukrainian best friends and chefs Alyssa Tomoshkina and Olya Hercules on setting up Cook for Ukraine and their friendship across frontiers. But first, she is back. She is free. After six long years of being imprisoned in Iran,

at one o'clock on Thursday morning, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe touched down on British soil to be reunited with her husband and has spent six years in detention after being convicted of plotting to overthrow the Iranian government. Charges she's always denied. Well, we've been in touch with Richard, her husband and longtime campaigner, who says the family are looking forward to starting a more normal chapter and focusing on recovery. Well, on Thursday, Emma spoke to the Foreign Secretary and Women's Minister Liz Truss, who was on the tarmac to greet Nazanin. She started by asking her what that moment was like meeting Nazanin and Anousheh. It was an incredible moment. We'd all been waiting at the airport for the plane to land. And there was a long process of getting the plane steps onto the plane and watching them come off for the first time was very, very emotional.

And seeing the family's reactions was incredible. And of course, I've spoken to both Nazanin and Anousheh during their detention, but I've never met them before. And I just thought it was incredible that despite the huge ordeal they've gone through and their family had gone through, they were both so positive and in such great spirits after such a long flight and such a long journey to be at this point.

And Nazanin seemed like that to you. I was wondering about your exchange and what was said. Well, she, I mean, it was a very, very emotional moment with her and her daughter. And, you know, I've got two daughters and I can't imagine what it's like to be separated from them for so long. And she was very, very gracious,

clearly very, very delighted to be reunited with her family. And I think looking forward to the next stage. But I think everybody at the airport was also still stunned. We'd finally seen her and Anousheh released. I mean, it has been a very, very drawn-out period and it's been, you know, in the last few days,

a very touch-and-go process. And just to see it come to fruition, I think for everybody has been, you know, we're all still slightly in shock. Yes, I can only imagine. And you pay tribute to the diplomacy. But you also confirmed yesterday as part of your statement that the UK had paid a decades old debt of nearly 400 million pounds to Iran relating to a contract for undelivered tanks. This is something Richard Ratcliffe has been asking for for the last six years. So why now? Well, I'm very clear that this is legitimate debt that the UK government

did owe the Iranian government and that we needed to resolve that issue. I met my counterpart, the Iranian minister, Abdullian, in September in New York at the UN General Assembly. It was in the first week of the job. And we both agreed that there were these long-standing issues, the unfair detention of British citizens, the unpaid

debt by the United Kingdom, and we needed to work to resolve these issues for the betterment of our citizens. And my priority has been securing the release of our citizens and also paying the debt, which... But it's striking to people, if I may, it was part of your statement yesterday, and the concern is it could be perceived as a ransom.

And what precedent that might set? Well, you asked me, Emma, why it was so difficult to pay the debt. And the answer is, of course, that Iran is a heavily sanctioned country. So it is not simple to transfer money and to pay debts in the way that it would be with a standard partner that the UK deals with all the time. So that is why it was a difficult process. And to make sure that money was going to be spent on humanitarian purposes was also extremely important to be able to comply with international law. So those types of issues do take time to resolve. And I was determined as Foreign Secretary to find a route that we could do that. And we did examine lots of different routes. Our officials have worked incredibly hard on this. I mean, I deployed team officials to Tehran on several occasions. I actually asked was why now? And one of the first questions that came in from a listener when I said you were a guest on the programme this morning is, why couldn't you have just paid this debt

six years ago to save her going through this ordeal? And another listener said, would Nazanin be free this morning without the war in Ukraine? Do we now need friends with oil? Well, first of all, this debt was over 40 years old. So you could ask the question why the UK government hasn't paid it for 40 years, which I think is a fair question. What I've done is seek to, within the levers I have, to pay that debt as soon as we possibly have. And we've now discharged that duty. And this negotiation...

So it's not linked to Ukraine, if I could just come in on that. To be absolutely clear, this negotiation, I kicked it off with the new Iranian government. So I was new in my job as foreign secretary. Minister Abdullian was new in his job in Iran. We met in September in New York and we agreed to kick off the negotiation process at that moment. And these negotiation processes are complex. It is difficult to transfer money to a country that is heavily sanctioned. Totally understand that point. It's about the timing. That did take time. And of course, the war in Ukraine is a very, very serious issue that I'm spending a lot of time dealing with.

But this is a completely separate issue about our longstanding debt to Iran and, of course, about the unfairly detained British citizens. And that's something I've been working on since September. And believe me, I was pushing as hard as I could to get it done as quickly as I could because I knew that every day Nazanin and Anousheh were in detention was another terrible day for them and their families. So we pushed it as hard and fast as we could.

Well, that's not the feeling when I've been interviewing Richard Ratcliffe over the years. I've gone back through some of the things that he said. I take your point. You've only been in post a relatively short time as foreign secretary compared to what's been going on for the last six years. Richard has described Nazanin as a chess piece in a wider political game. He's talked about being fobbed off with junior ministers. I wanted to ask you as well, because he's consistently been told, also apparently by the Foreign Office, he's been asked to be quiet about the link between British prisoners and this debt.

I mean, I'm talking about from 2017, 2016. That's when it's been going on from. It's not just since, of course, you've been in post. Do you think Richard Radcliffe has been treated well by your government and by the Foreign Office and by extension Nazanin? Well, Richard Radcliffe is an incredibly courageous man who has run a very effective campaign highlighting the plight of Nazanin and his families and other other detaining people I have huge admiration for him and he was sitting in the gallery yesterday when I gave my statement to parliament and I talked to him of course yesterday at the airport as well and I've been in regular touch I think the issue about dealing with this as a government minister is necessarily quite a lot of the work I have to do is confidential.

So, for example, the payment route we have found is subject to a confidentiality clause between us and the Iranians. So I cannot reveal the details of it. And these negotiations are often extremely delicate. They involve different parts of different governments. We also had help, of course, in conveying the detainees from our Amani friends. We were working government for 12 years now, and you've been a minister for most of that time, have treated Richard Radcliffe and by extension Nazanin. I mean, if you look at obviously what happened in 2017, just to remind our listeners, one of your predecessors, who's now the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, told a parliamentary committee that Nazanin was in Tehran training journalists in 2016 at the time of her arrest. She was not. Four days later, she was summoned to an unscheduled court hearing where his comments were her family said she was on the verge of a mental breakdown. That was five years ago at the hands of the foreign secretary, now the prime minister. Has Boris Johnson personally apologised to Nazanin about his serious error since she's been freed?

I think we should be clear at whose hands this is. It is the responsibility of the Iranian government who unfairly detained British citizens. clear at whose hands this is. It is the responsibility of the Iranian government, who unfairly detained British citizens. Yeah, but you can't control them. What you can control is our response as a government and how we have helped or not Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe. Well, I know the Prime Minister and my other predecessors have absolutely worked as hard as they can to get this issue resolved. And please don't underestimate the complexity of some of the issues that we have been dealing with and sorting out. I'm not doing that at all.

And I think it's really important to explain that. But my question was, Mr Johnson, has he spoken to Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe since she's been freed? And because now this is the opportunity for him to apologise to her, not just to the family publicly and to Richard. Well, look, Nazanin has only just arrived back in the United Kingdom. I was there at the airport last night at 1 a.m. meeting her. And I'm sure she's getting some sleep and spending time with her family. I'm sure the Prime Minister would be very keen to speak to Nazanin but the important thing now

is that we give the family some privacy. We allow them to resettle back into the United Kingdom. Nazanin has been through a terrible, terrible ordeal. But the Prime Minister has very much supported me in the work I've been doing to get this issue sorted out. It is of key concern to him and it's been of key concern to me. It's something I made a prayer. People are not doubting what you're saying about your role, but they do want to know about that link and the impact that that had, which is why I'm asking the question if you knew if they'd spoken. It sounds like not yet, but perhaps that will be a conversation. You say you're

spending a lot of your time at 1am and I suspect she is currently asleep. I didn't necessarily mean since 1am. I meant yesterday, of course, because she was in Oman and there were communications happening. So I thought there could have been an opportunity. But I accept she is probably and rightly having some deserved rest at the moment. That was Emma speaking to Foreign Secretary and Women's Minister Liz Truss on Thursday. If you'd like to hear the entire interview, and I highly recommend you do, go to BBC Women's Hour podcast on BBC Sounds. There are two trends happening in parallel at the moment when it comes to how women dress when pregnant. On the one side is the pop star and fashion mogul Rihanna.

She announced her pregnancy in January with a New York photo shoot alongside her boyfriend, the rapper A$AP Rocky, wearing a bright pink coat open to reveal her naked baby bump with layers of gold jewellery and chains. And she looked amazing. And since then, she's been seen wearing an array of eye-catching outfits, a skin-tight mint green jumpsuit, a sheer dress and thong combo at Paris Fashion Week and last weekend, a silver crop top with a diamond belly chain. On the other side are women who are choosing not to necessarily reveal their bump and are seeking to avoid that coming out moment cue many baggy jumpers and big dresses. On Tuesday, Emma spoke to celebrity and fashion stylist Jennifer Moholsky-Bray, who has dressed the likes of the comedian Catherine Ryan and Zara Bentley, a fashion content creator who's currently expecting her first child.

Emma started by asking Jennifer if it's a new trend for people showing their bare bellies. Yes, you know what, I hope that it makes women feel more confident in dressing for their baby bump. If anything comes from this, even if it doesn't become a trend for everyone, because everyone will feel comfortable bearing their bellies. But as long as people are feeling more confident in dressing for pregnancy, I think that is the key thing to take away from Rihanna's dressing. And but you have seen because I mean, I'm just looking at some of the messages, looking at some of these images. I recognize we're on the radio. I've tried to describe a couple of them. And one message says, I don't think Rihanna's outfits will catch on because some of them are see-through lingerie.

Might be OK for celebrities, but not anyone else in the real world I mean you might get a bit cold that's definitely true um I think you know she's just portraying her authentic self she dressed like that when she wasn't pregnant and so she's just taken how she dressed pre-pregnancy and translated that into maternity style and I think that's great and if you know I think she's showing people you don't have to completely change your fashion sense just because you're expecting a child it's interesting we got a couple of messages straight away about this um one from from CJ says 20 years ago there wasn't much choice I just wore what I'd been wearing before but several sizes larger the trousers undone and held up with a bit of ribbon I mean maternity wear is a relatively new concept but actually a lot of people turning away from it and just buying bigger. Is that what you're seeing? Especially,

as I say, there's another trend. Tell us a bit more about this, where women don't even want to say anything at all about being pregnant. Yeah. So, well, I always encourage my clients to try to dress the same way that they would be dressing and to just size up because then we can always alter it down to their post-pregnancy size. But yeah, a lot of my clients have hidden their pregnancies for months and months into their pregnancy. And I don't know if that stems from from um they're not wanting to the the public to know or um you know just people asking questions about the baby and um all of those questions they want it to be you know them at the forefront and not you know keep their personal life somewhat personal it's also it's also quite fun if people don't know because i enjoy watch i remember enjoying watching somebody look at me who i

worked with and then really not knowing you know if I just really had perhaps eaten quite a lot more uh of late or was going to mention it at all but you know this not coming out as pregnant obviously you have to tell certain people around you um but you know it's it's quite it's quite transgressive and it's quite interesting to to work with and I'm sure from from your point of view as a stylist Zara let me bring me bring you into this as someone who creates content around fashion and expecting your first child. Do you take your lead from those who are wearing the baggy jumpers or are you getting your bump out, do you think? A little bit of both, I think. Obviously, it is my first pregnancy, so I can't say, you know, I've changed my mind compared to, you know, whatever it might be. But likes of Rihanna as an example.

For me personally, it's not realistic for me to dress like that. But she's a celebrity and she can do that. And as Jennifer mentioned, she does, you know, she does dress quite avant-garde anyway type of thing. So she's keeping, you know, the way she dresses in line and just kind of, you know, adding that into her pregnancy. For me, like I do work from home. So I am most of the time in very comfy, casual stuff. But I do, you know, on my Instagram, a lot of my dresses and tops, they are quite tight. I like bodycon, I like to show my bump off. And I agree with Jennifer, that it can make you feel very confident. And for me, it's quite

empowering as a woman, because, you know, I'm proud to be pregnant and I do think you know this is my first pregnancy so I can't really compare it but you know let's say 10 years ago I've not really seen you know bumps and pregnancy shoots being as popular as they are now wherever I'm seeing it more now because I'm pregnant but I don't recall you know when I had friends pregnant you know years ago it was as popular as it is now and luckily you can dress you know more how you would usually dress when you're pregnant because lots of brands brands that never did before all have maternity range now um so you can still shop at most of your usual online stores or you know um in in real life stores and a lot of them have maternity range as well so you can still dress how you wanted to dress um but not have to

you know necessarily buy really you know extra large clothes and hide your bump if you don't want to and for me I personally really like that I think it's funny George says when I was first pregnant 14 years ago I was a size 16 getting getting bigger with my bump. There wasn't a huge choice out there, especially as I rejected all the twee slogan tops. I was pregnant, not lobotomized. I think you should wear what you like and enjoy it. Have you actually got your bump out, Zara? Have you been out with it out in like a crop or a midi or something? No, I've not got like my bare belly out um but I have I do wear quite you know body con tight fitted clothing um so you can 100% tell I'm pregnant there's no hiding the but no you have you haven't gone the whole Rihanna yet not no not the whole Rihanna do you think do you think

you will do you think actually just seeing that is something? I mean, like, obviously I take photos myself just for kind of, you know, seeing the progression. And of course, they're like in a crop top or something. I don't post stuff like that on Instagram. My page is a little bit more modest than getting, you know, my belly out. But I do think I wouldn't decline a shoot, you know, with a photographer where I might do a pregnancy shoot. And obviously just for myself, just to have something like that, because I do like it. Yeah. Well, a lot of people can't quite imagine a bit like you walking around with their bump fully out. But Jennifer, it does go in waves in this, doesn't it?

You know, we had specific maternity wear, then it's more like your regular clothes, but a size up, as you say. And then we've gone through people wearing, wearing much tighter clothes uh to show off the bump yeah you've definitely seen that and I am interested to see if you know fast fashion does pick it up as a trend for maybe um people yeah like I said people who do dress more like Rihanna-esque when they're going out. And if they're still going out with their friends, they might want to, you know, just dress like how they used to dress. And, you know, they're pregnant, show it off. Why not? So it will be interesting to see if it does trickle down to, say, ASOS or, I don't know, the fast fashion brands like H&M and Pretty Little Thing. That was celebrity and fashion stylist Jennifer Moholsky-Bray and fashion content creator Zara Bentley speaking to Emma there and how many of you tried to recreate

the iconic Vanity Fair cover when Demi Moore was naked whilst pregnant? It was beautiful. Still to come we hear from Russian and Ukrainian best friends and chefs Alyssa Tomoshkina and Olya Hercules on setting up Cook for Ukraine and the power of friendship across frontiers. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast. It's absolutely free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, you probably don't know what happened when Barbara Lissicky met Alan Holdsworth, but you really should. A new BBC Two drama, Then Barbara Met Alan, tells their love story. It's set in the 1990s. The drama follows the lives of the two

rebellious disabled cabaret performers who met at a gig, fell in love and changed the course of civil rights history. Well, I was joined by the real life Barbara Lissicky, who went on to co-found the Direct Action Network, which successfully convinced the Conservative government to pass the Disability Discrimination Act in 1995, and Ruth Maidley, the actor who plays her in the drama. I started by asking Barbara what life was like for her as a disabled woman back in the late 80s and early 90s. Well, in the early 90s, there was no protection for disabled people in law. You know, you could, I mean, every day something happened to probably most disabled people that demonstrated the discrimination that we were facing. You know, I trained as a teacher. I was a professional.

I couldn't get a job because without spelling it out, you know, I used to get asked questions in interviews that made it clear that, you know, they didn't think I could do it. And there's a scene right at the beginning where you're on a date with Alan and there's a woman walks past who is just patronising and rude. It's based on something that actually happened. I was in a restaurant with a group of disabled women friends and there was one, you know, disabled people don't always look.

They're disabled, you know, there are people with invisible impairments. And a woman actually went out of her way to come over to our table, came up to the friend who didn't have an obvious impairment and said, it's so nice to see them all out and about. It is very funny as well as really poignant and moving. It is whip smart. Ruth, I'm going to bring you in. What was it like to meet Barbara and to play her in this drama?

I mean, what a role for you. I mean, that's bucket list stuff, right? I mean, every actor dreams of a role like this. And for me, it just made it even better that I was playing a real person and somebody who completely changed my life as a disabled child. And also somebody who is incredible to look up to as a disabled woman today. So it was a joy on every account. And a gift as an actor, I imagine. And this drama covers, it's a very important history of disability rights, but at its heart, it's also a love story.

So how important is it, do you think, for us to see that story, disabled people falling in love on screen? Well, it just doesn't get told, does it? And I think disabled people aren't given that permission to be seen on screens, fall in love, be intimate, have a very domestic setting. So to be able to portray that alongside my co-star, Arthur Hughes, who also a disabled actor, that felt really revolutionary and a real moment for our industry. There's a beautiful scene in it. It's where you have sex and it's stunning to watch.

But also you are, as a disabled actor, we see your scars. Why was that scene important, do you think, to have in there? Oh, that was so important. Again, disabled people aren't afforded the right to have those scenes ever. I always say disability representation on screen screen it's not just about that it's a knock-on effect it's about body image all of those things that are huge and i know that i would have really benefited from seeing um growing up as a young disabled person who had a very different body to everybody around her so um showing body differences in in the arena of disability

is something that is incredibly important to me and it was a real honour to work with our wonderful DOP Susie and our directors Bruce and Amit on creating that particular scene in that really special way. Barbara, when you first met Alan did you know that you would go on to change history? We didn't know anything really you find out you agree about things and it became the more and more

we had discussions about things and when disabled people get together we compare notes we talk about our experiences and you find all the common ground you know so somebody who's blind or have a an experience of discrimination in a very similar way to somebody who's a wheelchair user you know you realize that common ground means that something is happening to us all and we need to go for it. And so that's what Alan and I talked about a lot.

It wasn't your Bob Standard relationship. When you go to the cinema and hold hands, probably couldn't get in anyway. We've had demos at cinemas. I bet you have. One of the demos, famous demos, it all starts with this great scene where you are all watching the ITV telethon. Hate watching the ITV telethon, hate watching the ITV telethon.

And it propelled you to protest against it. What was it about it that annoyed you so much? Well, I mean, everything. But the telethon, for people who don't remember because it's not on anymore. But it was 27 hours straight of television and it was i think the person that put it best was professor mike oliver who's a disabled academic who's written loads about the social model of disability um and he said in a speech outside in our demo outside the telethon they do not have our permission they beg on our behalf and they don't have our permission. And that's the thing.

It was, you know, a portrayal of disabled people, a locating of disabled people as tragic, pathetic. You know, our show that we toured was called The Tragic But Brave Show, you know, sort of wind up of the stereotype. But that was who we were and that was the only representation that existed of disabled people in any of the broadcast and print media you know we weren't anywhere else we were to all intents and purposes invisible to

everybody so you know and then once every year or two years, children in need, I might add, was pretty much the same. And we've also demonstrated against BBC's Children in Need. We've come a long way since then, though. Well, I agree, but I just don't think it's the right place to put disabled people. You know, OK, representation is getting better. There's more of it. But as long as, you know okay representation is getting better there's more of it but as long as you know it keeps happening that that is where disabled people are put and that is a very high

profile thing that's what people remember and you've said that whilst you were protesting you were seen as the ungrateful disabled so what gave you the motivation to rebel against the narrative of the poor disabled woman? Because everybody, all the disabled people I knew, hated it and said, we need something else, we need something different. And the only way to do that is to create it for ourselves, to create a different story and to create a different image and to be the people that push that forward and then we know they'll get it right because it'll be coming from us it's a brilliant watch it's a it's a

such an important story we've been talking about stories and the stories we tell that shape our history and this is this is crucial Ruth I mean how this what impact did it have on you to tell Barbara's story it actually it was it completely changed my life in a way that I don't think an acting job has before for me on a deeply personal level. I've always been very aware of and very proud to be a disabled woman, but this made me feel even more proud, which was very, very important to me. And to work with so many people on set, to work with so many creatives who are disabled, which is not the norm at all on set.

That was me speaking to the real life Barbara Lisicki and Ruth Maidley, the actor who plays her in the drama. And you can see then Barbara met Alan on BBC Two and iPlayer from Monday and I highly recommend it. Now do you remember Cook for Syria, the 2016 campaign which has raised more than £1 million for UNICEF to support children and families impacted by fighting? Well now there is Cook for Ukraine, based on a similar principle, encouraging people to cook traditional Ukrainian and Eastern European foods to raise

funds. The campaign has been set up by two women who are best friends and chefs. One is Russian and the other Ukrainian. Russian chef and historian Alyssa Tymoshkina and Ukrainian chef and activist Olya Hercules. So far, they've raised more than £200,000. Emma started by asking Alyssa what Cook for Ukraine was all about. So the campaign works in three ways. One of them is through social media and the hashtag Cook for Ukraine now counts over 5,000 posts. So we encourage people to cook something,

mostly from all those books because they're the best sources of history and culture and food from Ukraine. And then share the picture and share the hashtag and encourage people to donate. So raising awareness through this. Secondly, we're doing lots of events in London, but also globally. Lots of people are hosting supper clubs, bake sales and other in-person events. And thirdly, we have partnered up with over 200

restaurants in the UK alone, and they are adding a voluntary donation to each bill. And again, all of that goes towards the campaign. Oliya, have you been seeing a particular dish, if you like, come up the most? Or is there one that just to give an example to our listeners that you would recommend perhaps starting that journey with? Oh, there's been so many. It's been really heartening and positive. I've seen quite a lot of borscht, which is, you know, a stereotypical Ukrainian dish, but one of the best for sure. I think the weather is still good for, you know, something like chard rolls or cabbage rolls called holubtsi.

There's a whole lot of things that you could make in March for sure. Olya, your family, are they still in Ukraine? They are, yeah. My parents are in the south of Ukraine in my hometown in the Kherson region, which is now under Putin's occupation and they're under siege. And my brother is in Kiev, who was a civilian just a few weeks ago and now is in the territorial defense. And my nephews and my niece are in Western Ukraine, kind of taking shelter and, you know, going to bomb shelters every night. And then there's my huge extended family that's peppered all over Ukraine from

Berdyansk to Odessa, and obviously loads and loads of friends too. And how are you able to talk to them at all at the moment? How's the communication and what are you able to tell us from what they're saying? Yeah, luckily, communication has been okay so far. Last week, we had a couple of days when in the Kherson region, they've been trying to cut all communication. So I lost touch with my parents for 24-7, which was the most terrifying thing. What are they saying? They're extremely stoic and brave. So I'm sure that my parents are not telling me a lot of things because they don't want me to panic, which has been so admirable. And my brother as well, he kind of sends me a video every morning and he cracks little jokes and tries to make me feel positive.

My nephews are just incredible. You know, they're not sitting around during the day. They're trying to help and coordinate help coming from abroad and to send it all around Ukraine. So, you know, but the situation is extremely scary now in Kherson, even though it's not being bombed and it's not in the news as much as other areas. What's quietly happening there are almost, you know, well, Stalinist repressions. Basically, they're kidnapping journalists in my hometown.

They're kidnapping activists. They're telling people that trucks with gunned men will appear if people will come out on the streets to protest. So it's a really worrying, stressful time. I'm so sorry to hear all of that. And I'm so sorry for all the concern and worry you must be living with day to day at the moment. Alyssa, let me come to you.

I know that you have a lot of family still in Russia, of course, where economic sanctions have been imposed. There's a lot of restrictions on what the people can actually know with regards to the media. We were only talking yesterday about the woman who Marina who went in front of the Russian state TV to make her protest yesterday. What is it like talking to your family at the moment? Well, luckily, my parents have left Russia about six years ago after the war in Crimea. But of course, you know, a lot of their life is still connected to Russia. So the sanctions have affected them quite drastically. And they are very openly anti-Putin.

So, you know, it's very hard to see people who are equally opposing Putin's actions. They are suffering in a very serious way, of course, nowhere near as heartbreaking as what's happening to the people of Ukraine. And lots of friends of mine had to flee. And they're really heartbreaking stories of families being torn apart because of visa restrictions. And, you know, families with different immigration status had to fall apart, hopefully just temporarily. There are lots of people now living in Istanbul and Turkey and Georgia, but not really knowing what to do next, because there's only a short amount of time that a Russian can spend in those countries without a visa. So it's really devastating.

And the impact that all the sanctions are having on Russian culture are, of course, heartbreaking. And for me, who has a very close connection personally and professionally to Russian history and culture, this is absolutely unbearable to watch. But my understanding was you still have some family and friends in Russia. Yes, I do. And what's been interesting for the few Russians I have spoken to during this time

is they're also amazed and, you know, a range of emotions to see how little is known about what's actually going on for some of them outside. And of course, we mustn't forget some will be supporting Putin. Yes, absolutely. So my grandmother is still in Russia and she has always been a very strong anti-Putin person. Sadly, she's fallen out with the rest of her family who are pro-Putin, which is, of course, heartbreaking. She's an elderly woman who now doesn't have actually anyone to talk to apart from us who are abroad. She's also cut off from any media outlets that are actually enabling people to know the truth. And, you know, having watched, for professional reasons, having watched a lot of state news recently,

you know, it's astonishing to think that this is the information that people are bombarded with. And, of course, if you have no means of accessing other sorts of information, then this is the only thing that you will believe. And even if you do get shown the truth, people find it extremely shocking and they say this is the only thing that you will believe. And even if you do get shown the truth, people find it extremely shocking and they say this is fake. So it's a complete inversion of truth and false values. You both met as friends and you met back at university, I believe, some years ago, 2005.

And you've been having this conversation in many ways for a long time about the relationship between the two countries, but also generally what's been going on politically in the area. Oliya, what would you say to people who are particularly struck by this campaign being set up by a Ukrainian and a Russian and what you'd say about the importance of having such a friendship? So, yeah, me and Alyssa met outside of our university building you know she was studying film and I was studying Russian in English translation Russian culture and we you know we just started speaking and I think one of the first things that we asked each other you know I said where are you from and she said you know know i'm from siberia and immediately the first thing that i would say would be oh my grandmother on my on my dad's side is from siberia and then you know the conversation starts and then she found out that i was ukrainian and she said oh my grandmother and my mom's side is from ukraine and and you know and then is there just be

you know a regular cultural exchange um just despite everything that's been going on in 2014 you know i think me and elisa are so much on the same wave on the same wavelength uh in terms of how our brains work and also um on a on a spiritual level or you know on a kind of soulful level we are also on the same on the same side so to speak you know we're a kind of soulful level, we're also on the same, on the same side, so to speak, you know, we're, we're interested, curious people who, who are kind and positive, you know, and, and it's important not to lose sight of that. So if you have someone close to you, it's not about labels in that sense. It's not, you know, Russia doesn't, the Russian doesn't necessarily equate,

you know, negative or evil. So people need to remember that, I think, and to hold their good friends tight. And what do you want to say to that, Alyssa? Well, it's really wonderful to hear that. And as many Russians who are not supporting Putin's actions in general, and especially in Ukraine, I too felt a lot of shame. And I was extremely heartbroken when the war started. And when Olya and I went to the protests on the 24th of February, part of me felt I shouldn't be here.

Who am I to stand here? You know, people are right to be so angry at Russians. But having Olya there and, you know, having the emotional support of a friend is extremely important in times like these, but also of a Ukrainian friend was extremely significant for me. And it was Olya's words, you know, when I told her, you know, I'd love to help her in her fundraising activities,

but I feel really conflicted. Is it okay for a Russian to be doing that? And Olya said, don't you ever let Putin be ashamed of who you are and of your identity and of your culture? And, you know, we hugged and it was so meaningful and so symbolic for me. And that's kind of what gave us the energy and the inspiration to start Cook for Ukraine. Yes, because I think there is also the concern about Russophobia and the culture with regards to, you know, from food to everything else, being very much harmed by this, being erased and that shame coming through. Are you concerned about that? Have you had any experience of that, Alyssa?

Oh, completely. Again, on a personal and professional level, I'm deeply concerned about what's happening to the perception of Russia and, of course, to the Russian culture itself. I know of cases where children of my friends, Russian friends, were bullied in school. You know, some children actually afraid to go to school at all and now have to be homeschooled. And, of course, you know, news of ballets being cancelled. And, you know, it's just deeply heartbreaking.

And, A, I think it's extremely dangerous because it actually, in fact, feeds into Putin's propaganda about the genocide of Russian culture in the West. So I really want to put a plea out there, you know, let's unite against that, you know, not give Putin any reason to say stuff like that. But also, you know, on a personal level, you know, human beings are far more complex and they're far more than just their national origin. So please don't see people just as a, you know, a passport and a national affiliation. We're so much more than that. And also just to say it's been extremely heartwarming to see through the campaign to see people uh hosting supper clubs where they cook dishes from my book and olia's books and in a way in a symbolic way

they unite the two countries on the table that's just been extremely heartwarming and encouraging to see well listen may i just echo that sorry um yeah just for people just imagine the putin you know he represents patriarchy and he represents that kind of like really old way of thinking and the rigid kind of mind. And, you know, everything that's to do with Russian culture and creativity is in opposition to that. So by limiting and trying to put a negative kind of image on everything cultural that comes from Russia kind of plays into Putin's, into what Putin is. That was Emma speaking to Russian chef and historian Alisa Timoshkina and Ukrainian chef and activist Olya Hercules. That's it for today. Thank you for joining me this afternoon. Don't forget, Emma is back live at 10am on Monday morning where we'll be discussing HRT supplies.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.