Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Forgotten Children, Devil Wears Prada, Giovanna Fletcher, Preterm birth, Headteacher Evelyn Forde

Episode Date: November 16, 2024

A new Woman's Hour series, Forgotten Children, explores the impact on families when one or both parents are sent to prison. Reporter Jo Morris hears from Kerry Wright, who was just 17 and living in Spain with her parents when British police arrived at their door and arrested both of them, from Nan (not her real name), whose daughter received a prison sentence, leaving Nan to care for her five grandchildren and to Emily (not her real name), whose husband was sentenced to prison for domestic abuse. Nuala McGovern also spoke to Sarah Burrows, founder of Children Heard and Seen, a charity supporting children and families with parents or partners serving prison sentences, and Lucy Baldwin who is a research fellow at Durham University and a criminal justice consultant.As a new musical adaptation of The Devil Wears Prada, with lyrics contributed by the American musician Shaina Taub and music by Elton John, hits London's West End, Anita Rani was joined by the show’s leading ladies, Vanessa Williams, Georgie Buckland and Amy Di Bartolomeo to discuss the enduring appeal of this story.Nuala spoke to TV presenter and author Giovanna Fletcher from the Himalayas at the start of her trek to raise money and awareness for CoppaFeel! the breast cancer charity.Preterm birth is the leading cause of neonatal death in the UK. Today the House of Lords Preterm Birth Committee have published a report calling on the government to do more to reduce the risks of babies being born prematurely and to improve the lives of those families who are affected. Anita discusses proposed changes with Nadia Leake, who gave birth to twins eleven years ago at just 22 weeks and is the author of 'Surviving Prematurity,' Evelyn Forde was the first black female president of the Association of School and College Leaders, awarded an MBE for services to education, and named Times Educational Supplement Headteacher of the Year in 2020. In her book Herstory: A Leadership Manifesto, Evelyn shares her journey through the education system, her experiences of racism in her career, alongside the testimonies of other black leaders in the sector. With just 1% of headteachers in state schools in England from a black background, she joined Nuala to discuss why she thinks urgent action is needed to address the issue in education. A new musical – Mozart: Her Story - tells the story of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s sister Maria-Anna, who taught him how to play the piano. Nuala is joined by the lyricist, Tegan Summer, and actor, Gabrielle Brooks who gives a performance from the new show.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good afternoon, welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. In the next hour, a sparkly new musical has just opened in London's West End, The Devil Wears Prada, and we're joined by its three leading ladies. We discuss the recommendations from a new report about the prevention and consequences of premature or preterm birth, and talk to a mother about her experience and the impact when her baby,

born prematurely, died. This is a gentle signpost to say that we will be hearing a story that some of you may find upsetting. We have former headteacher Evelyn Ford, who's written a manifesto to tackle racism when it comes to leadership positions in education. And we go to the Himalayas, where the author and TV presenter Giovanna Fletcher has been leading an arduous trek. For me, it feels like I come along and I spend every day, you know, kind of telling my kids we've got to do this and being the one in charge. Whereas I come on these and there's people that know what they're doing. I don't need to make any decisions. I just need to walk, just need to walk and talk. And it's such a beautiful thing because I don't think any of us

actually get that chance to do that. So yeah yeah we just literally get our heads down walk taking the view and talk about a lot of things. Lots to get through so grab a cup of whatever you fancy and settle in for the next hour. Now this week Woman's Hour has broadcast a series called Forgotten Children which looks at the impact on families when one or both parents is sentenced to prison. The government estimates that nearly 200,000 children are affected by parental imprisonment. It's an estimate because there is no centralised register of children whose parents are in prison. On Monday, our reporter Jo Morris spoke to Kerry Wright, who was 17 and living in Spain with her parents, when British police knocked on the door and arrested both of them.

Kerry has chosen not to disclose her parents' crimes. They were both sentenced to prison in the UK and Kerry had to abandon her studies at an international school in Spain and return to England with no idea of how to support herself. She kept her situation secret, sleeping on friends' sofas, until she decided to confide in someone. I remember telling my friend about it. And she said, oh, come and stay with me.

I then got a phone call from her mum saying that she didn't want me there because she didn't want my friend to get involved. She didn't want to get involved in any of this. And that's when I was like, oh, OK. I remember being gutted. Like, I was like, oh, no, it's no big deal, no biggie. And then on the inside, I was just like,

I didn't expect that from her. I felt, I guess, that I was being blamed for my parents, for what they've done, even though I had nothing to do with it, obviously. I was a child. People don't want to be associated with me now. And I noticed as well, so when all the articles started coming out...

In the press? In the press, sorry press sorry that's when you know friends started to drop off you you know you don't hear from them anymore and that kind of added to the loneliness because you're like who do i who can i rely on so when you you're back in the southeast you were sofa surfing did anyone professional offer you any help anywhere anyone signpost you or anything no no one did no the police didn't the council didn't um like an education did the police know you were there yeah and they knew I wasn't with family or anything um there was nothing. There was no support. That was Kerry Wright talking to Joe Morris. Then on Tuesday's programme, Nuala spoke to Sarah Burrows, founder of Children Heard and

Seen, a charity supporting children and families with parents or partners serving prison sentences. She was also joined by Lucy Baldwin, research fellow at Durham University and a criminal justice consultant. Both Sarah and Lucy believe that without a systematic approach to identifying children whose parents are in prison, it's impossible to give them the help they need. But identification is not enough on its own, as Lucy explained to Nuala. You know, lots of children who experience parental imprisonment suffer in many different ways. And I think identifying those children is half of the problem, but

tailoring support for children is the other half. And what sort of support? The kind of support that Sarah's organisation offers, like psychological, educational, emotional, practical, physical, accommodation. It covers the gamut

of what children need. Because I'm mindful that as part of its manifesto in June, the current Labour government pledged that the children of those who are imprisoned are at far greater risk of being drawn into crime than their peers. We will ensure that young people are identified, back to that word again,

I might use kind of discovered, might be a better word, and offered support to break the cycle um i mean what what does that need to look like and and why is there that emphasis you think on breaking the cycle i think the emphasis is is almost on breaking the cycle is almost incorrectly identifying the point because we do know that children who have a parent in prison have an increased risk but it's really impossible to isolate that risk because of you know and attune that to the fact that the parent has gone to prison because people who go to prison usually come from disadvantaged communities with

lots of trauma in the background lots of missed opportunities in terms of drug and alcohol support, mental health, poverty, accommodation, and the children are growing up in that same environment. So you can't really isolate the one factor that they have a parent in prison as being the single most important factor as to why they might go to prison in the future. You can't have effective criminal justice without effective social justice. And it's the social environment that the children are living in that places them at risk. Sarah, who do you think, which minister or which department should be ensuring that part of that pledge, at least, I don't know whether you agree with the whole pledge of the current Labour government, but to find out that they are identified and then they also talk about breaking that cycle of not being drawn into crime. I think it's the Department of Education.

I don't think it sits under the Ministry of Justice. It isn't about children having family ties and reducing the offending of the person in prison. This is about children and children themselves. Children have to be the heart of it all and it is a safeguarding risk why this continues. The Department of Education says, Sarah, Lucy, what say you? I agree that the Department of Education need to be involved, but I think it's broader than that.

I actually think that, you know, it needs to be a cross-party commitment and a multi-agency response with ministers from social care, from education and from just a community background to recognise some of the challenges that children face. And I think in terms of identification, the Ministry of Justice do have a responsibility because when people go to court, there is a missed opportunity there for when somebody's been sentenced to identify the children. I think every person should have, every parent who is in court should have something called a PSR, a pre-sentence report, which is written by the probation service. And in that probation report, it should identify

what the impact of a parental imprisonment sentence would be, where the children are, how old they are, who will be caring for them and what their needs are. Lucy Baldwin and Sarah Burrows. where the children are, how old they are, who will be caring for them and what their needs are. Lucy Baldwin and Sarah Burrows. And then on Wednesday, we heard Jo Morris visit Nan, not her real name. She took in her five grandchildren into her two-bedroom house when her daughter was in prison for two years.

So you're making some chicken wraps there. Yes. What sort of things did you use to make the grandkids? Well, they love curries. They love curry. So I'd always do them a curry. So you're making some chicken wraps there? Yes. What sort of things did you use to make the grandkids? Well, they love curries. They love curry. So I'd always do them a curry. Four lads and a girl, you know, and it was like,

they loved the food, but it was just the amount and then the pots. The pots. The washing up. Yeah. Yeah. I should have got, the kitchen's not big enough for a dishwasher. Do you know what I mean? So I think I'm molly-collared and a little too much as well. Grandparents are there for all the good little bits.

We go, nannies, we go and get treats, blah, blah, blah. So it was like, then I was like, I was nanna, but then I was the role of mum. And it was like, trying to balance that was difficult. It was really difficult. roedd ceisio cyfathrebu hynny yn anodd iawn. Beth oedd y effaith emosiynol a'r effaith seicoleg ar y mabwysion? Oedd yn fawr iawn. Roedd ychydig ohonyn nhw ddim yn siarad yn fawr. Roeddent yn ddiddorol iawn.

Roeddwn i'n gofyn iddyn nhw i gyd, os oedd un yn mynd i'r llawr ar yr un arall, fe dweud, maen nhw'n mynd trwy'r hyn rydych chi'n mynd trwy. Felly sut yn ddifrifol ydyn nhw? Byddant yn teimlo'n ddifrifol fel chi. Mae'r rhan fwyaf ohono'n mynd i'r blaen oherwydd roedd hi'n

mor llawn. Roedd dim ond rhywbeth i'w wneud. Doedd dim un munud. Felly roedd hi'n yn iawn. Roedd yn amlwg beth i'w wneud, nid oedd un munud. Felly, fe wnaeth hi ddod i'r cyfnod o'r lockdown. Roedd yn anodd hefyd, y lockdown, chi'n gwybod, roedd yn cael ymlaen i gyd. Roedd yn cael ei ddod yn y tŷ gyda'r syniadau, yn y bôn. Roeddent yn siarad â chi am sut roeddent yn ffail? Roeddent yn siarad â chi? Nid. Nid. Roedd yn anodd bod angen cyngor. Roeddem yn ceisio cael hynny i'r No, no. It was strange that, you know, like, they needed counselling. We tried to get it for the older ones. I think that... I think the kids didn't want to talk about it

because they were scared of the emotions that had come with it. Do you think they were scared to tell you how they were feeling? They might have been. They might have thought, well, if I tell my nan and my nan might start crying, it might really upset her. It's always been really good kids. Fe wnaethon nhw ddweud, os byddwn i'n ddweud i fy mab, byddai fy mab yn dechrau coi, byddai'n eich gwneud yn ddifrifol. Roedd yn bob amser blant mor dda, ac maen nhw'n dda iawn. Ni allwch chi'n credu, maen nhw'n blant mor dda. Ac gallwch weld sut mae'r cymorth wedi'i effeithio arno.

Roedd y plant hefyd yn agos iawn. They were also really close, you know, the children. And then they've all got to process how they're feeling themselves, you know, and it kind of, it fractured, you know, because they was all internally having to process and deal with what was going on. And it just kind of, like, broke them. You know, they was never the same after that. Never, never. That was Jo Morris talking to Nan.

On Thursday, Jo talked to her mum, Emily, not her real name, about how her children reacted when their father was sent to prison for violent crimes committed against Emily. My youngest kept saying to me, you need to find me a new dad. Like, I need a dad. Like, oh, what about this person? Because she just needed, like,

she saw all her friends having these family, like, the weekends were the worst because people would go out and do activities as a family and we weren't. I think she said to me, we're just broken, aren't we? And it was so hard because obviously I felt that that was my fault and for her to say that like they noticed that we were different and we were

weren't normal like they'd seen families that had split up before but they'd still see their dad whereas they had no contact so it was almost like he died but he hadn't so they didn't they were grieving a loss but he was still there. So it was a really kind of complex... I don't know how you understand that. So I can't imagine how a child would understand that. Equally, he was trying to hurt me, and that was why he was away. And all of their friends have got these great families

that they just wanted to have. And ultimately, it affected us financially. He was the main earner. We then then were I was working part-time and then eventually I couldn't work because I came ill and then we didn't have any money and all of their friends were going and doing stuff and we used to have that life we used to go on holiday we used to do things and then all of a sudden we couldn't do anything eventually I did manage to get back to work, but it was still like we're living on one income. I'd fled, so we had nothing. So we had no sofa, no bed, no tea.

We had to start again with absolutely nothing. We live in quite a privileged area. I don't know anyone who's got a parent in prison. I've never known anyone go to prison. It is looked down upon like we were looked down upon at school in the playground my youngest one she like she didn't get invited to people's houses and I don't know if that's because of he was in prison but the others did beforehand like I hated doing the school pickup it was like I didn't want anyone to speak

to me but then I equally didn't want to stand on my own because I felt everyone was judging me because they they didn't know why he was in prison and I remember a dad a few years later and he he said to me oh I thought he went to prison for fraud or burglary and I was like no we were the victims. Emily talking to Jo Morris about the stigma she faced when her now ex-husband was imprisoned for domestic violence. Well, we had a huge response from you all week expressing your admiration for Kerry, Nan and Emily and your shock at the lack of provision for families like theirs. Comments like, very moving but also very reflective about an extraordinary experience to happen to a 17 yearyear-old and so little or no support given. I'm sorry it happened to you, but well done for telling your story.

And another listener said, what an amazingly beautiful granny. She brought me to tears with her unconditional love and sacrifice through her outside family sentence. And in response to Emily's story, Emma got in touch to say, thank you for highlighting the important issue of the impact of parental imprisonment from a child led perspective. Too many focus on the prisoner and not those left behind and damaged by the criminal justice system. My children have been damaged by their dad serving a seven year sentence.

They suffer from separation anxiety and it's been difficult for me to continue working full time in a job. I love as I've had to focus on my children. While the Department of Education is responsible for protecting vulnerable children, we asked them to join us for Friday's programme but they didn't have a minister or spokesperson available. They did however give us a statement saying growing up with a parent in prison can have a devastating impact on a child's life opportunities. We have taken measures to better identify and support these children. We have published the first official statistics of the number of children with a parent in prison to better understand the scale of this challenge. We're also breaking down barriers to opportunity, taking action to prevent more women and mothers from getting caught up in crime in the first place. And you can catch

up with all of the Woman's Hour Forgotten Children series, which was broadcast over this last week by going to BBC Sounds. Next to London's West End, the musical lovers amongst you will be out of your seats clapping with glee as a new show has just opened, The Devil Wears Prada. The iconic film starring Meryl Streep, Anne Hathaway and Emily Blunt was released 18 years ago and now a new musical adaptation, lyrics contributed by the American musician Shaina Taub and music by Elton John, is hitting the West End. This week I was joined by the three leading ladies in the show, Vanessa Williams, Georgie Buckland and Amy DiBartolomeo.

I began by asking Georgie, in case you haven't seen the film, what the storyline is. So the story follows Andy Sachs, our protagonist, who I'm lucky enough to play in the musical, who gets a job at Runway magazine and meets Emily Blunt's character, Emily, played by Amy, who is the first assistant to Miranda Priestly, played by Vanessa Williams.

And Andy kind of works her way up at runway and changes her lifestyle and goes to Paris and lots of things happen. I won't spoil too much, but it's about a girl who loses herself briefly to get ahead career-wise and in the end realises that the only thing she needed to do was stick to her own integrity

and what she truly wanted out of life. But she gets some amazing outfit changes. Yes, she does. Vanessa, you play Miranda Priestley, the original role played by Meryl Streep, the boss from Hell. Was this a no brainer when you got the call? I loved the idea to play it.

There was another production that had happened. And so I was. But Jerry Mitchell, who is our director, choreographer, said, listen, I'm coming to you. Don't read any critics' reviews of the last production. I'm taking over. Trust me, I'm going to come back to you with an offer. But you're my first choice. So I knew that Jerry had a huge vision. And I trusted Jerry's vision that he would shepherd the show into what you saw last

night. So yeah, honestly, it was a little, some trepidation at first just because it is theater and it's all about collaboration and creators and vision and budget and what they have in mind. So, but I am so happy where we are. It's a brilliant group of people that have been putting this whole piece together. And I'm in definitely great hands. Yes, and you are magnificent on the stage. And also when your name was released as the person who will be playing this role, we're all delighted. You know, is it a gift? Can I reveal your age?

Sure, I'm 61. 61. And starring in The West End. Were you expecting something like this to turn up? Is this a wonderful thing to have happened right now? Well, I really enjoyed it because I was supposed to make my West End debut in 2020 in City of Angels at the Garrick. So we had already gone through all of our rehearsals. We were in previews, and then the whole world shut down.

So this was an opportunity to come back and actually make it happen. So I'm happy to be back in the West End theater scene, happy to work with all these brilliant people that surround me every day and do a role that is a lot of fun. And I've been lucky to be able to play some formidable women in the past. Yes, including Wilhelmina Slater in Ugly Betty, similar role in some ways. Yeah. Well, Wilhelmina never got a chance to be editor-in-chief. That was her for four years. She tried really hard and did anything she could possible to get to that position.

But Miranda, it's her. She's at the helm. Amy, you get to play Emily. She is hilarious. Not always the nicest to Andy. What's it like to play comedy? Is it the first time you're playing comedy? Yeah, I've been desperate to play it.

I just couldn't get seen. Like, real talk, I really wanted to play or even audition for a comedy role and I just couldn't get in for one and when I saw this I was like let's go why do you think that was I don't know I don't know I don't know I think she's too beautiful beautiful to be funny yeah no no I think people put you it's all about breaking out of your boxes isn't it I think I was oh god I'm being really honest um I think I was put in a, oh, she can riff. She can, you know, she's, oh, she dances. And I'm like, no, but I do so much more.

Please let me show you. And this was finally, I'm so, I say it all the time. I'm really grateful for this team because they're the people that finally took a chance on me and said, no, you, she can do it. And I, yeah, I've been having the best time ever since. First of all, we welcome pure honesty at Woman's Hour. And also, you're right, it only takes one person to give you that break.

I say it to them. You are so funny. Thank you. Talking of the person to give you a break, you're very first. You've only graduated five minutes ago, Georgie, and now you're starring in a huge West End musical. Yeah, it kind of happened overnight for me. I was the last person to be cast, very last minute. In a huge West End musical. Yeah, it kind of happened overnight for me.

I was the last person to be cast, very last minute. I mean, they had to search for months to cast this part. And Jerry was very honest and said he couldn't find anyone to play her. And I came in, I was on tour at the time. I remember my first audition, I dropped my music all over the floor and was swearing and was a mess. Like an absolute mess. And I had to get back to Nottingham, that's where I was on tour

at the time. And yeah, he just saw something in me. He said I like that girl. I remember that girl. Star quality. You are brilliant. All three of you. Yeah, three weeks in. I mean, it's wonderful. We need to talk about the fashion because it's exquisite. I'm thinking particularly of the ballroom scene.

It's magnificent. There's so much in it. Anyone who's into musicals, this is the, you know, it's just a, it's an instant classic. It is a feast for the eyes. It is. But all I kept thinking about is they have to wear high heels on stage all the time. Is that difficult yes these two I feel are natural I am not I had to spend I spent a lot of time in my room not a lot of people know this wearing heels walking up and down going I need to look good

I need to look good but I can get away with it because she's not supposed to be so natural at it. But the costumes are exquisite. What does it feel like putting those on every single night? Well, I was lucky because I got a chance to create a majority of my things. I worked with a dear friend of mine who's a designer. The name of her line is Pamela Rowland. So I did a lot of my stuff with Greg Barnes, who's our costume designer. We came up with fabrics and shapes and did mood boards and all that stuff. So I would say 70% of my things are Pamela. And then I do wear some Tom Ford, some Dior, some Prada that are store-bought. Store-bought. It's hardly store-bought. Yeah. hardly store but yeah um so it's it's it's wonderful yeah it's that's what people are going to come to see as well yeah i am i got um i was

couldn't believe it um an instagram message from greg barnes watched um the workshop we did and was like i'd like to talk to you as soon as possible and i remember turning it to my boyfriend or it's me like i can't believe this is happening um and so we zoomed straight away and he the first thing Greg said to me was I want you to feel amazing what do you want I want you to feel comfortable how do you see her how do you envision her do you mind wearing stilettos and I said Greg there's only one choice we have to do stilettos Emily has to be the main thing my thing was she has to be so on trend so so before the trend or straight off the runway she spends all of her money on her fashion um I have to be in stilettos I want to

be uncomfortable so I had everything taken in as tight as possible so my posture I just think she would really care about how she looks yeah you embody it yeah I mean it's and it helps so much when it comes to the character because you can feel any kind of way vanessa williams georgie buckland and amy d bartolomeo and the devil wears prada is at london's dominion theatre and if you're wondering vanessa williams is breathtakingly beautiful in real life now tv presenter and author giovanna fletcher has been in the himalayas this week and afford a trek raising awareness for Copperfield, the breast cancer charity, and helping to guide over 120 supporters through the mountain range.

Amongst those lacing up their hiking boots and acting as group leaders with her were Dragons' Den entrepreneur Sarah Davis, TV presenter Emmy Willis, and Paralympian Erin Kennedy. Nuala spoke to Giovanna before they set off and asked her how everyone was feeling about the trek ahead. I feel like everyone comes with different things that they're apprehensive about, different fears, whether that's whether

they're physically going to be able to do it, mentally, emotionally, where they're going to go for a wee, you know, all those things that you know, you just, they're in your mind and you know, and I've been doing this for a long time now. This is my 13th trek. So you are a proper cheerleader for the rest that are coming along with you. Give us a few more details about what's ahead. We've got three more days of trekking ahead. Lots of very steep mountains. And what's incredible is today that we're walking and across the valley,

we can see one of the mountains that we're going up tomorrow. And it looks absolutely stunning. But for a lot lot of us we're sort of like oh my gosh that looks incredible but also that is going to be hard but what I love about the treks and I think this is something that Copperfield do so incredibly is I always say like I don't care how fast people go you know I don't want you to get to the finish straight away it's all about being together as a group and getting each other through. And because of that, there's always such an amazing atmosphere. But 120 supporters, have I got that right on the track?

Yeah, 120. Is it like herding cats or is it more like a regimented military position? The one thing I love, I think it's a mixture of the two. The one thing I love about these tracks is a mixture of the two the one thing I love about these treks is that for me it feels like I come along and I spend every day you know kind of telling my kids we've got to do this and being the one in charge whereas I come on these and there's people that know what they're doing I don't need to make any decisions I just need to walk just need to walk and talk and it's such a beautiful thing because I don't think any of us

actually get that that chance to do that so yeah we just literally get our heads down walk taking the view and talk about a lot of things because obviously we've got 120 trekkers a lot of people here have had a breast cancer diagnosis or um someone close to them has or they might be here because they are just hitting a certain milestone age-wise something's happened in their life and they just want to challenge themselves so there's so much that everyone comes with everyone has a story whether it's cancer related or not everyone comes with something and there's something about walking with a bunch of strangers that just lets all that out you don't have to worry about how someone's going to perceive something or how a family member might take you feeling about thinking about a certain thing in

some way uh you just talk and and because of that, it's just, yeah, it's just brilliant. It's a lovely place to be. And what's your story? I met Chris, the founder of Copperfield, 10 years ago. And I knew as soon as I met her that I would do anything for her. But two of my aunts have had breast cancer. And someone who was very close to me when I was younger also had breast cancer. And I remember seeing her in a hospice and at the time she was in her 60s and I remember thinking when I met Chris who you know when I met her she had been diagnosed when she was 23 and so my mind went instantly to Molly and her in that hospice and I just thought I can't believe that I felt like my whole life had been lied to in terms of breast cancer.

I assumed that it was something that older women got and that it was only women and that it was only a lump. That's not the case at all. You can get breast cancer at any age. Men get diagnosed with breast cancer. 400 men a year in the UK get diagnosed with breast cancer. It's not just a lump. It's thickening of the tissue. It's dimpling.

It's rashes. It's inverted nipple. It's nipple discharge. Anything that changes. And it's alsoashes, it's inverted nipple, it's nipple discharge, anything that changes. And it's also important to know that when people are checking that you've got to go up to your collarbone and under your armpit as well. So it's not just what you perceive to be your boob or your chest. And I think knowing the signs and symptoms, it can literally save so many lives. And if you're on top of it and if you're checking and you find something and you go to the doctor, if it's something that's not your normal, it can literally be the difference between survival and not.

You know, so knowing your knowing your body is just such an important thing to do. So I've been doing these treks now for seven years and we can really easily feel like, well, I've said it now and everyone's heard it. But that's not the case at all. We need to keep banging the drum because we don't know if someone hears the message today and goes, oh, actually, maybe I should go to the doctor about that little thing that's been niggling me that's a bit embarrassing, but actually maybe I should just put my big old knickers on and just go out there.

Or whether they hear it and go in 10 years' time, they might be like, oh, that's not my normal. I know I should go to the doctor. So I think it's something that we have to keep talking about and reminding people of because we can't just think, well, everyone knows now, so let's stop. I think it's something that we have to keep talking about and reminding people of because we can't just think well everyone knows now so let's stop I think it's it's really important. And Chris Helenga who was the founder of Copperfield and really who was advocating for all those things that you just talked about when you're checking your breasts and collarbone and under the arm

pits she so sadly passed away in May this year. I mean, an amazing life, really, in what she achieved, I think, in her life and also in her death, being so open about it. What's your fondest memory of her? Ah, I truly feel like, and I think a lot of people that had Chris in their lives felt that Chris was sent to just do everything that she did. She achieved so much in her lifetime. But my fondest memories of her are all the cold swims that we used to have in Cornwall. And I always used to have that thing of, Chris would always go first.

And it was one of those things where she's done it, so I just have to. But there was one point in Newquay Harbour where we got in and had a little swim around. It was absolutely freezing. But then there was a seal and it was just the most magical thing. And it didn't always go right. You know, there was another time where she managed to talk us into having inflatables on our

cold water swim and again she got in first that I got in but my float just wanted to float off so I had a little panic where I had to just definitely get off the float and just swim back but I did think that was my maybe me going off into the sea somewhere but yeah I I feel so honored to know that Chris is and was I find past tense such a difficult thing to to you know she she remains such a massive part of my life and and these treks feel like such a gift so the fact that I'm able to continue spreading her message that you know that we're able to help Copperfield, which is her baby, to just get more and more people body aware so that they too can live long lives. And the fact that Chris lived with cancer for 15 years,

and she really did live. She did. I can remember at her funeral, which for anyone that doesn't know, she had a living funeral. When things started, she was having more cancer activity in her brain, she decided to have a living funeral when things started you know uh she was having more cancer activity in her brain she decided to have a living funeral and it was the most bizarre beautiful thing ever and her

friend stood up at the start of it and she was like you know none of us know what this is we don't know we don't know how we're meant to feel so just ride it and it was such a celebration of life yes there were tears obviously but there was so much laughter and euphoria and that feeling of how wonderful it is to be alive. So, you know, that is certainly something that I take with me and I hope that we bring along to the treks. Giovanna Fletcher there and the group successfully completed the trek this morning. Well done, gang. Still to come on the programme, music from a new musical exploring the life of Maria Anna Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's lesser known sister, also known as Nan. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day.

If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free on BBC Sounds. Now, the evidence is unequivocal. The government's target to reduce the rate of preterm births from 8% to 6% by 2025 will not be met. That's the finding from a new report by the House of Lords Preterm Birth Committee published this week. Preterm birth is the single biggest cause of neonatal mortality in the UK. This report is the end result of an inquiry looking into how the statistic can be improved in England. Among the recommendations, the report calls on the government to put greater focus on the needs of parents,

as well as develop the maternity and neonatal workforce. I was joined this week by Nadia Leek, who gave evidence to the committee of her experience. She gave birth to twins preterm and has written a book called Surviving Prematurity. You may find some of the details distressing. I began by asking Nadia why she felt she wanted to share her story. As soon as Harrison was born and his brother Rafe who sadly died at three weeks old we knew that the circumstances we were in were so far from what we wanted. We'd been desperate for our family, our twins were the product of the fifth attempt of IVF and we had been trying for so long. So when we arrived at the hospital unfortunately at 23 weeks pregnant to be told that it was too early, I was fully dilated with bulging membranes.

I didn't really know what that meant at the time, but I understood that I was about to deliver. It was imminent and there's nothing they could do. So not only were we in a situation where these babies we'd longed for were set to be born and then die, we were told we could hold them in our arms and they could take their last breaths with us. We then got to the point where the care team there said, actually, let's give this a go. We will try to intubate these babies, which is to insert the breathing tube to help them survive. Where were you? So we were at the wonderful Barnet and Chase Hospital

who saved our children. And again, this story meanders a bit in that we live in the northeast of England. I'd come to Hertfordshire for a family celebration at 22 weeks pregnant thinking what could go wrong? And on the way home, this is why we ended up at Barnet and Chase on the approach to the motorway I said to my husband I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable let me use the services and there was bright red blood evident so that's what led us into the nearest hospital which was Barnet and Chase and this night of absolute terror where we stayed overnight.

Had the boys delivered at any point from then on, they would have been, that would have been their last few hours alive. So the journey continues in that they decided to save the children. We were then transferred, and this separation that happened so quickly. I delivered the boys at about 6pm. By midnight they were transferred to Queen Charlotte's in Hammersmith, a fantastic hospital there and unit there. But I wasn't taken to, well we couldn't leave to go to Queen Charlotte's

until the following afternoon. So I delivered our children who we were told were going to die. They saved them. They moved, it was the right thing for them to be moved to a unit that could support them and stabilise them. But I didn't see my children again until the following afternoon. How was that experience? The emptiness left in you

when your child is literally inside you one minute and gone the next. I slept because I'd been awake for 24, 30 hours at that stage, but it was fitful. And I was up and dressed by about 6am the next morning, desperate to get out and go and find my babies. They were across London. When did you get to see them? It was about 2pm the next day. We went to the hospital where they spent most of their time at that point. Rafe died in Queen Charlotte's at three weeks old and our journey continued with Harrison. And the separation, so because we were actually in London when we live in the northeast, they managed to find us some accommodation, which very rare to have accommodation so near your baby. So that was life saving for us all that we could actually be with him as much as possible.

That is not the case for so many families. And this is what has brought me to continue to advocate and campaign for families who need that additional support to be with their families. If you have other children at home, now these were our first children. So I could spend all the time I wanted to with Harrison and Rafe. But there are so many barriers to keeping families together. And this is what this work is about and it was you know my heart swelled when I saw in the report talking about accommodation talking about family integrated care and keeping families together so tell me what you think could have been done differently

for you and what you now what you spoke about yeah so because and this is where my real understanding of how different other families' experiences comes from. So we had our babies in London. We stayed in London for about 10 weeks and then transferred back up to the northeast once Harrison was well enough. And what I saw there was that the difference in care was around the environment. It was around the staff ethos in how they would support families to be together. So in London, through sheer luck, we had accommodation near our family. We had a department who included us in all care decisions, who very much enabled us to be parents and have those moments of intimacy and love and bonding and those firsts that are just so precious to pick your baby up.

And they really supported that and enabled that for us. When we moved to the second hospital back in the northeast, they were very much practicing a, I would say, a less evolved model of care called family-centered care and at that stage our role in our baby's care and and development was lessened a little bit just through the model of care so I'll give you an example unfortunately Harrison's first bath was in this second hospital and at the time the nurse says well I'll show you how to bathe your baby and the nurse bathed our baby while we watched and took a video of it and looking back you're so disempowered yeah when you're in any hospital environment you are beholden to the people who are looking after you so we watched and we enjoyed it at the

time but looking back that was our baby's first bath and i did not touch him these are the small things that now there's been so much education so many um initiatives now to think about first for families that first bottle that nappy change the things you take for granted at home that unfortunately in a care situation, and this could be months worth. We were in hospital for over four months where those things might not happen and you can't get them back. And in the case where your baby dies, it's lost forever. Yeah, it's crucial. You're grieving one child and then you have this desperate situation where you don't know what's happening with Harrison. And you just have to go with what the professionals around you are telling you, right?

Absolutely. Because you don't know what's the right thing to do. Absolutely. And I will say, I never questioned the medical care. Yeah, of course. We were looked after so well it was the things that make you a family that were taken away on occasion and those are the things for me that led to the long-term mental health concerns PTSD even when Harrison came home I would pick him up

in the night as you would do to feed your baby but I could see his dead brother's face when I was holding Harrison. And were you given support? The understanding of the impact of a neonatal stay, it's getting there, but I would say most healthcare professionals in the community don't understand what you've been through, and therefore the support that's offered is often not what you need so I did go to my GP and I said I'm not okay and I was offered bereavement support but that wasn't the problem I've got I've got to ask about your boy Harrison

how is he now Harrison is a 12 year old boy doing 12 doing 12-year-old boy things. He is absolutely wonderful. Just back to the prematurity, he is autistic, he has ADHD, and these are the things that are at higher risk for babies born preterm, especially early preterm. But he is smashing life, and he's well-liked at school. His teachers are extremely proud of his progress and how he's doing. And as parents, Martin and I could not be more proud of that boy. He's beautiful, bubbly and just a joy to be around.

Nadia Leak there. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this discussion, you can find help and resource links on the BBC Action Line website. A Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson said, while change will not happen overnight, we are working urgently to address stark health inequalities and ensure all women and babies, regardless of background, receive safe, personalised and compassionate care. We have committed to training thousands more midwives and we will tackle wider social determinants of ill health, which increase the risk of preterm birth by shifting the focus from treatment to prevention

as part of our 10-year health plan. An NHS spokesperson said, the NHS is committed to ensuring all women and babies receive high-quality care before, during and after their pregnancy. And while the health service has made improvements to maternity services in England over the last decade, we know further action is needed. We're increasing the number of midwives and obstetricians and our three-year delivery plan for maternity and neonatal services, which is supporting midwives

and doctors to reduce the number of babies born early and provide the best care when preterm birth cannot be prevented. Now to a book that the author has said might not be your regular book about education. Evelyn Ford was the first black female president of the Association of School and College Leaders, the trade union and professional organization. Evelyn has written Her Story, a leadership manifesto to share her journey through the education system, including her experiences of racism in her career, some of which are talked about during the conversation. Just 1% of headteachers in state schools in England are black.

Evelyn argues that systemic racism persists in education and that action is needed to address the issue. Evelyn's accomplishments include an MBE for services to education, and she was named Times Educational Supplement Headteacher of the Year in 2020. Last year, she decided to step down from her role as a secondary head in a state school. Nuala talked to Evelyn Ford earlier this week and began by asking her why this is a book that everyone might not be ready to read. I just think race can make people feel uncomfortable. And my experiences were pretty horrific.

And I just think that some people may not want to hear that. But that was the main reason why I wrote it, because we really need to make a difference on the leadership landscape in education. Tell me a little bit then about your experiences or the challenges that you faced. Yeah so if I can just give you some context I left school with no qualifications at a time when it was quite easy to jump the fence right? And jump the fence you mean not attend school? Not attend school so leaving with no qualifications and then much later on as a young adult thinking I needed to go back into education I just realized and I didn't want my experiences um to be that of children in schools and I didn't want my experiences to be

that for my own girls I've got three girls So going back into education to get my degree and my teacher qualification was really, really important to me. And it was when I was doing a night course that there was a black lecturer who said to me, you need to go back and get your GCSEs. So I saw somebody who looked like me. I saw somebody who took like me. I saw somebody who took the time to say, go and do something. So that's kind of sat with me all those years. And then when I became a teacher, absolutely loved it. Teaching is a fabulous gig, don't get me wrong. Absolutely loved it. And then I realised that I wanted to make more of an impact. I wanted to be somebody who could make decisions that would affect thousands of young people hence wanting to

become a head teacher. I think I was pretty naive in that I think I made an assumption that I'd done all this training, I was a great teacher, that actually going into leadership would be not a walk in the park, but it wouldn't be as challenging. I went for approximately, anything between, I lose count, right? Anything between 11 and 18 deputy head interviews, often getting down to the final two because that's how it works. They make a cut on day one, get down to the final two. And I just wasn't getting the jobs and I just couldn't get my head around it.

And were you sure that was to do with race or could other teachers with different ethnicities, be it white or whatever, apply for the same amount, perhaps getting down to the last two? Well, when you get feedback along the lines of, we're just not sure how our community would relate to you. I think it's a lot more... You got that? I got that. What was your response to the people? I was just shocked, you know,

and sometimes you're so shocked that you really don't know how to respond. And so I just kind of thought, okay, I'll just keep going back, keep going back until I get that job. And I did get a job and I did get a substantive deputy head position. And, you know, again, like I say, working in education is an amazing, amazing experience. And I've only ever really worked in those kind of tough inner city schools that really need that help to kind of move them on and I think the racism that really

shocked me to my core and actually shocks lots of people is when I was working in a school and a tough school you have the standards you really needed to improve standards and I was holding a member of staff to account and she was overheard referring to me as a frizzy-haired gollywog. That is a shocking statement, just for our listeners that are hearing that as well. We're speaking about them because these are your experiences. These are my lived experiences. And we are hearing what you went through and the challenges that you feel are faced. This is an illustration of it.

Did you confront that person? I didn't confront that person directly. But what I did was, and I think this is the issue. The statement was bad enough in itself. And then when it was brought to the head teacher at the time, the response was not great, actually. And the head teacher felt that because i hadn't heard it directly that there was nothing that could be done about it and so that's an issue that we really need to address in schools because these conversations these statements some conversations are taking place and actually we as black people in, we need to be listened to and we need to be made to feel safe.

Some might say that there are laws on the books when it comes to speech or hate speech that should be counteracting some of what you're saying. Yeah, agreed. But who's holding everybody to account and i think until we've got the department for education really shining a lens on our experiences many of our experiences as black leaders can be swept under the carpet what is is standing in the way? What is standing in the way from? In the sense of particularly black teachers getting to those leadership positions? Yeah, I think there is a lot of unconscious bias. I think there is, when you look at senior leadership teams, and I say it in the book, when you look at a lot of senior leadership teams, they are predominantly white. OK, it's neither healthy nor progressive.

And therefore, you get stuck with the status quo. And there is something about being comfortable in those situations, is my view, that to actually then go out and actively recruit leaders from ethnically diverse backgrounds, I just think that there are some leadership teams that are just not ready for that. How do you make them ready for it? Because I'm thinking, is this like an issue in society or within its educational establishments? I would say it's in society, but my focus is education. Of course. And I'm just wondering how you can ignite that change or make it happen if it's something that's reflecting society at large. Well, first of all, let's acknowledge it.

And I think until people are ready to stand up and say this is not OK, the fact that we've got 1% of headteachers who are black is not OK. So I think what we first need to do is acknowledge that it's a problem. I think secondly, we need to have a call for action. And the DfE don't have any targets around this. They don't have any targets around recruitment for black leaders. Is that what you want? I would love to see that. I would love to see. So when new teachers are beginning their training, let's have some racial literacy training, you know, because some of our new teachers are going in and look at our society today, we're more diverse than we've ever been. And actually,

we need to equip our new teachers to be able to engage in these conversations. What would that look like? That would look like knowing how to have a conversation. About race? About race. It's difficult and some people shy away from it. And I always say it's OK to maybe not know the language, not know, you know, what's current at the moment, but at least try and let's let's just begin that

conversation evelyn ford and if you've been affected by any of the issues in the interview there are links to support on the bbc action line website a department for education spokesperson said we want teaching to be a supportive and inclusive profession and know how important it is that we attract and retain talented teachers from all backgrounds to deliver our mission to break down barriers to opportunity for all children issues around diversity recruitment and retention have been neglected for too long while the data shows things are improving gradually we're working hard to recruit and support the progression of teachers from all backgrounds including through our commitment to six and a half500 more teachers in schools

and colleges. And Emma Hollis, Chief Executive of the National Association of School-Based Teacher Trainers, or NASBTT, which represents school-based initial teacher training providers, said, lack of diversity in the teaching workforce is a persistent issue in the UK education system. In terms of overall recruitment, we know from the NFER research published this year that there is significant interest in teaching from black and minority ethnic candidates, but that this is not translating into more teachers from these communities standing in front of classes. NASBTT is working with a number of external partners, including diverse educators, to amplify the conversations around diverse representation in initial teacher training and in recruiting and retaining early career teachers.

It's down to us and all ITT providers to ensure the teaching workforce is as diverse as the pupils they're teaching, which will help to drive aspiration, achievement and break down barriers. That's all from me, but you will not want to miss Monday's Woman's Hour. We speak to the actor Michelle Yeoh, best known for her Oscar-winning performance in Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. She joins Nuala, Lucky Nuala, to discuss her latest project, a film version of the musical Wicked. That's all from me. Have a lovely weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.