Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Foster caring, Liz Carr on assisted dying, Sabrina Ali on Dugsi Dayz, Rachel Chinouriri

Episode Date: May 11, 2024

The number of children in care is continuing to rise each year, and thousands of new foster carers are needed. The comedian and writer Kiri Pritchard-McLean has done just that. During lockdown, Kiri and her partner embarked on a journey to become foster carers in north Wales and she’s ‘evangelical’ about the role. It’s the subject of her new seven-month comedy tour, Peacock.The debate on assisted dying is often framed around the issues of choice for the terminally ill, but what about the rights of the disabled? Actor and disability rights campaigner Liz Carr has major concerns about potential changes to the law that she believes could leave people with disabilities at risk. She joins Clare McDonnell to discuss her documentary “Better Off Dead” which explores the debate from the perspective of disabled people.Four girls sitting in detention on a Saturday at their local Mosque are stuck in darkness after a power outage. To pass the time, they tell Somali folktales and bond in a modern day take on The Breakfast Club. That’s the scene for Dugsi Dayz, performing now at the Royal Court Theatre. The writer and actor Sabrina Ali told Hayley Hassell all about it.What would happen if you could only speak the truth – and not even tell white lies? That’s the subject of a new book by Radhika Sanghani, called The Girl Who Couldn’t Lie. Radhika herself hasn’t lied for two years – she told Clare why she wanted to write the book and the things she’s learnt from telling only the truth.Singer songwriter Rachel Chinouriri is one of the music industry’s rising stars, gaining plaudits from celebrity fans, including Adele, Sophie Turner and Florence Pugh, for her nostalgic Indie sounds. Rachel talks about her first album, What A Devastating Turn Of Events, which is an intimate exploration of her experiences and relationships.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Deiniol Buxton

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Clare Macdonald, featuring all the best bits of the week just gone. Coming up, you will hear from actor and disability rights campaigner Liz Carr on her new BBC documentary about the debate on assisted dying and how potential changes to the law could leave marginalised people at greater risk.

Writer and performer Sabrina Ali, whose new play is about four Somali girls kept in detention on a Saturday in their local mosque, on why she was inspired by the 80s teen classic The Breakfast Club. When I was younger, it really resonated with me. I liked how they explored the different archetypes of teenagers. It was so fed up of seeing the same stories. So I was like, how cool would it be to have four girls and four of them in a room, but just because they're Muslim or Somali, like from completely different worlds,

and like the tension was like the perfect home for that. I guarantee you'll enjoy floating away on the beautiful vocals of one of the rising stars on the UK music scene Rachel Chinnariri and also why journalist and author Radhika Sangani hasn't told a lie for two whole years and how she feels at the end of it, much better is the answer. So, no disruptions for the next hour, just you, me and the radio. The number of children in care is continuing to rise each year, and every year, thousands of new foster carers are needed. During lockdown, comedian and writer Kiri Pritchard-McLean and her partner embarked on a journey to become foster carers in North Wales and she is evangelical about the role. It's the subject of her new comedy

tour Peacock and she joined Hayley Hassell in the studio. Hayley began by asking her how's it been? Oh it's been wonderful. I always worry I'm too cheesy and I sound a bit Disney but it's been fantastic. Obviously like anyone who goes into any form of parenthood, but certainly my version of it, you can do all the training, you can read all the books, but until you start doing it, it's a bit like passing your driving test, isn't it? You really learn how to drive when you're driving the car on your own afterwards. But it's been incredibly edifying,

and I think it's really broadened my horizons in ways I hadn't expected. Yeah, I imagine no matter how many books you read, nothing can prepare you for a real life human child. They are outside of the books. But I know you provide respite fostering care via your local authority. What exactly is that and what does it mean for you in your life? It basically means that we take young people for anywhere between a couple of hours and a couple of weeks. And that means that we can kind of um support other foster carers as well or families that might need extra support so we're kind of

like how i colloquially put it it's like floating babysitters but incredibly well trained with all the paperwork and it really works for us as well because we're both really passionate about young people but having a biological family is not really clicked and felt like it's the right thing for either of us but that doesn't mean that we don't have a huge capacity to care and to support and to nurture and I feel by doing this having these young people in our lives that we get to we get to have that brilliant edifying experience and we get to take the pressure off very busy families or foster families and allow them a bit of breathing space as well and also you're obviously incredibly busy you're about to start your tour tell me how one you've incorporated

this experience into your comedy routine it's a bit like any other job because it is you know a job where you send your availability and then you slot in the gaps around it and it's brilliant to be and very liberating to be able to talk about it on stage because it has been transformational you know as a journey for us personally and I'm so used to as a stand-up comedian as soon as anything big happens in my life I take it on stage that's and not in a cynical way but it's also how I process things. But how do you make that funny that's what I don't get? Well do you know what it's actually been the easiest show to write it's been because I don't talk about I don't talk about the young people it's about the journey through you know what? It's actually been the easiest show to write. It's been because I don't talk about I don't talk about the young people. It's about the journey through, you know, to to get being approved, the vetting process, if you like.

And so there's lots of observational humor in there about, you know, first aid courses and icebreakers and training on Zoom and things like that. But I'm interviewing you as a person, which is different to any other job interview. It's actually seeing whether you would be a good enough parent for these people, which I imagine is terrifying. Yeah, and it's not sure either that's about 60 hours, that part of it, the assessment, with a very experienced social worker sort of drilling into every part of your personal life, which I think other people would struggle with, but I make a living from it, babe, so I'm absolutely fine. And has this experience of looking after children altered your view in any way do you feel like the sketch that you're doing now is very different from what you started

I think that I have I have a renewed respect for anyone who works in sort of social care because I think I had like lots of us who don't encounter it an idea of what social workers are and what they do and now i have an actual understanding of what the system is and i'm very blessed to have a brilliant brilliant social worker who i just feel is like absolutely at my side and that has sort of changed my view on yeah social care in general and also i think it creates i think it's very easy when you work in the media like us to forget forget what the real world is actually like because you speak to lots of people with privilege,

you become a person with privilege. And when you see how lots of people actually live and what they're doing to keep their head above water and what they're dealing with, you can't help but be imbued with a sense of, I think, empathy and understanding, which I feel very lucky to have that perspective. And it's tough, isn't it?

It's tough for them, but it must be tough for you as well. I know last year the Children's Commissioner for England said that 71% of people who complete a fostering form subsequently drop out because I think the process is so long and difficult. And it's something you talk about in your act. How did you find it? And what do you make of those figures? Is that surprising to you? It is surprising to me because I think my partner and I went in with our eyes, eyes open in terms of what we wanted from it and what we thought we could bring to the table. So I think when you have people who have their own families already, strangely, us not having our own biological children, I think has proved to be an advantage. Because people can go into it and go, well, you know, they might have an empty nest or something and have an expectation of what it is to be a parent but being a professional parent being a foster care is a different a similar but

different set of skills and you need to sort of change how you view things and I think some people find that very very jarring whereas us we're sort of blank canvases and and you know what it reminded me of when I was sort of auditioning to try and get in drama schools never happened by the way I went to Salford very blessed for that but they would say you're not going to make it you know you'll never you'll never do anything and that made me more determined and the more things that came up that should sort of put us off about fostering we were arrogant as performers enough to turn around and go yeah we think this is right for us well you obviously love a challenge um because i can't imagine it's easy i mean you may laugh about it and joke about it on the stage but it must be quite taxing as well how have you found the experience

for caring for all these different children because as you say you can't read about it in a book yeah well i actually think that's one of the freeing things is that you you know you've done your training you've got that that's in your brain and once you understand that like there are obviously transferable skills but when that young person rocks up you are and we have you know teenagers you're taking that young person you're meeting them on their terms and you just go with it and you let them sort of lead things i think that has been a brilliant thing that we've sort of unlocked in our learning of like don't go in there with preconceptions. You get a referral about this young person. You know a lot about them.

Don't bring that to the table unless it becomes useful. Like meet this young person where they are in that moment. And that has been, for someone who's quite controlling, that has been a really good thing to me to go, right, let's relax and go with this. I think that's such a good tip for all parents, actually. I'm taking notes as we speak. But they must be quite emotional as well say say you've had these children for a week or a weekend or two weeks what's that like saying goodbye? Well I think we're very fortunate in that goodbyes aren't really goodbyes in that lots of the young most of the young people if they stay in the area want to come back which is so lovely because you get a bond and they come back and, yeah, it feels fantastic. And there have been people who move on to, you know,

perhaps they're going to independent living or things like that. And I just do, this is where I side especially, Disney, but I do feel genuinely honoured to play any kind of part in these young people's lives. And even if it's to be a footnote, because I know the impact of adults who took an interest in me, a brilliant teacher at school who has, you know has put me on the path to getting to perform when you grew up in rural Wales.

That is special. And if you can hopefully be that person, and it can just be a phrase. There'll be things that your parents said to you, good and bad, that stay with you forever, or the adults in your life. And if you can be that thing to a young person, that person says, you know you're brilliant,

you can do whatever you want, or you're absolutely fantastic at art. Have you ever thought about doing that? If you can play that part, be that moment, then what an honour. That's how I just think about it. And is that one of the reasons you decided to speak about it so publicly? Because I know you're 37, which is a lot younger than the average foster carer. And there is a massive shortage at the moment. So was that one of the reasons you decided to shout about it? Well, there's sort of two things going on. One is that I was having these conversations massive shortage at the moment so was that one of the reasons you decided to shout about it? Well there's sort of two things going on one is that I was having these conversations privately with my friends lots of us of the similar age some most of my friends are mams and the other

side are in this position that I was in that was like I don't know if I want a family but maybe I do and so I was having these conversations privately and then people were going oh I didn't realize that about foster care I didn't realize it could be flexible I didn't realize that you it was okay if you hadn't had your own children, that you can be single doing all these things. And it was the same misconceptions that I had. So I thought there's a more efficient way to do this than doing this one-to-one at house parties.

That maybe, because I have this wonderful platform, I can go and talk about it. It was only recently that you've been able to tell the children your real name. You weren't allowed to let them know your name or that you were a comedian. Yeah. Why? Well, because I think it's an unusual situation having a stand-up comedian with, you know,

with a very small profile, but a profile nonetheless, who wants to, you know, have young people in their lives. And I think the local authority was sort of trying to damage control ahead of time and go, is it going to complicate things if they know they're a comedian

and my name is very distinct and unique? Does it me too googleable does that make the young person vulnerable me vulnerable so yes but now now I finally get to be Kiri the comedian to the young people and let me tell you teenage lads couldn't care less yeah and that must have been because you actually had to perform your comedy act to the social workers before they gave you approval for the act. So does it feel a bit like you're vetted now? You can't be as free as you'd like to? No, if anything, the other way, I've got all the confidence of someone touring the only stand up comedy show that's been signed off by, you know, a load of social workers and a vicar as it goes. So, yeah, I'm absolutely thrilled. And you know what? I credit to them that this my local authority, I sat them down. I did the show to basically a group of very small groups of social workers pretty much count on one hand and there's

bits in it where I really sort of push push the process and dig into it and talk about how difficult it was and they and they got it and they absolutely see why I'm doing it and see the value of it and they have been amazingly supportive which has always been my experience of my local authority fostering. And I know you've had your ups and downs and you talk about that more in your show. But is there a piece of advice you can give anyone who's thinking about this, started, maybe it's just on the cusp of imagining it? Yes, I would say if you're going to have teenage boys, you think you'll have enough food. You never do. Always get more food.

I can vouch for that. Kiri Pritchard-McLean there talking to Hayley. Her tour Peacock runs until December. Now, the debate on assisted dying is often framed around the issues of autonomy and consent for the terminally ill. But what about the rights of the disabled? Actor and disability rights campaigner Liz Carr has major concerns about potential changes to the law

that she believes would leave marginalised people, including some of those with disabilities, at much greater risk. She says the possibility of it happening for her is terrifying, and she's made a documentary for the BBC on this called Better Off Dead. Here's a clip. If you're a visibly disabled person, the chances are that somebody, often a complete stranger, will have come up to you and said something like, gosh, if I was like you, I couldn't go on. I'd rather be dead.

I've had it said to my face, in front of people. I've had it said at work. A friend saying, well, you know, if your condition progresses to the point where you can't feel yourself, you know that I'd condition progresses to the point where you can't kill yourself, you know that I'd be happy to do it for you. And this wasn't someone I was particularly close to. If my life was like yours, I'd want to kill myself.

He actually told me that I should go and kill myself because, you know, then I'd stop being a drain on society. See? Better off dead. Liz Carr joined me in the studio and I began by asking her why she wanted to start the documentary in that way. I wanted to explain why I was making this and why it felt important and really to go step by step through what my fears are and other disabled people. So, you know, if you're pro-assisted suicide, why are you supportive? Choice, one word. If you oppose, I mean, you need an hour-long documentary, really, to do that. It's very complicated. It's not straightforward, as I'm sure we can grasp that. So I wanted to show you, I guess, show viewers that on an everyday basis, disabled people are dealing with a lower expectation

and people actually saying to their faces, gosh, surely it's better to be dead than be you. That happens. It's shocking. So I wanted that to be the starting point. And then let's unravel why that is and how that leads to my fear of legalising assisted suicide. What was so revelatory for me as an able-bodied person, and I think quite revolutionary, is hearing that perspective in the context of assisted suicide and also separate from it as well, that you have the voices, your voice leading the voices of disabled people talking about how they are viewed, how able-bodied society views disabled people through the lens of being able-bodied. That's really interesting. Why was it important for you to make that point so clearly? I mean, I think I can't make it any other way. If I was going to put my name and my face to a documentary like this, which arguably is controversial because it's going about against what we see as the mainstream often,

then I needed it to reflect me, I needed it to have integrity, and I needed it to represent a community, a group of people that I'm part of. Now, if you're screaming at the radio, no, of course I don't speak for all disabled people, and I don't claim to at all. Thankfully, we're not one big group group and we have lots of different views. However, a lot of the explorations of the discrimination and the way that we're viewed in society,

I think we share that across the board, whether you believe that we should legalise medically assisted dying or we shouldn't. So it starts and what is radical, I think, is not only the music that we have in the show, but also the way that we take this from a disability rights perspective. Yes. And as you said, I think, from my gaze, from somebody who lives in a world where, you know, if I'm recognised in the street, then people are giddy and excited and it's wonderful. If I'm not recognised in the street, then I'm ignored. Or sometimes I'm glanced at as if I'm just trouble

and I'm a problem. And, oh, God, have we got to get the ramp out? Ah, I'm just a pain. So that difference shows me that oftentimes, I think, disabled people are just tolerated. And I think that's the same with ill people and older people. And I think all those groups would be affected by these laws. We'll get onto that in a second, but I thought it was really interesting.

Is the movie called Me Before You about, tell us the story. And there's footage in the documentary of you protesting with fellow protesters outside the premiere to this. Yes. Tell us why. Well, Me Before You, based on Jojo Moy's hugely successful book, Romance, actually, was made into a film, a rom-com, about a guy, successful, attractive, conventionally attractive, young man, wealthy, who becomes disabled in an accident, then doesn't want to, you know,

not very happy with his lot, understandably. Then they employ, I think of her as a hapless carer who comes along and they fall in love. And then, as I say, in all good rom-coms, he decides to go to Dignitas to end his life. And the hashtag of the film was live boldly. And it was like, oh my goodness, it's live boldly, but not if you're disabled. What's the message? And more than anything else I've ever seen in terms of the media, internationally disabled people, whatever they thought on this subject, said, I'm fed up of the message is, actually, a lot of disabled people do suffer. But what they suffer from are the barriers and the obstacles,

the fact they have to fight for support, the fact there isn't social care, the fact of attitudes, the fact of lack of access to so many things. You know, we do suffer. So don't then make it legal to end that suffering through assisted suicide. That's the fear. And that's what's happening, we see, in Canada.

Yes, we'll get on to that because I just wanted to sort of let people know because I've seen the documentary and I just sort of lay out the kind of ground terrain where you say this is the this is the base point we're starting from. Yeah. As disabled people, we're seeing sort of so far down the pecking order that bringing in this kind of law may be risky. Now, you go to Canada. Lots of people will say, but you know, you have to have, it's legalised, it has to be signed off. And there are protections. What did you find in Canada? So absolutely, wherever there is a law, there are things called safeguards. But certainly in Canada, they've been changed and removed to a degree. So in Canada, it began just for terminally ill people. And then over the years, it was changed.

So now you didn't have to be just terminal or only have six months to live. Therefore, it's for people who are seen as suffering intolerably and have a medical condition. That covers a lot of disabled people. And we believe it was meant to be this year, but it's been postponed. That also includes people with mental illness and mental health problems.

So, you know, what we saw over there is an expansion that absolutely includes disabled people. But it also includes disabled people choosing to use it because of socioeconomic reasons. And that is, I say it's terrifying. That's what was terrifying. Right, and you also meet a man who had been homeless previously. And tell us his story, tell us his name and what he was concerned about. So, Amir Farsud broke my heart and is probably, for me, the most impactful interview that I did on a personal level. So here you have a disabled man who applied for MAID, which is medical assistance in dying.

That's what they call it in Canada. He was going to become homeless. Now, in his youth, he'd been homeless. He knew he couldn't endure that as a disabled person. He tried. The waiting list for affordable social housing, because he was on benefits, was over a decade. He applied for MAID for euthanasia. He told his doctor why. He qualified because of his medical conditions, but the suffering was absolutely because of poverty

and homelessness. So he got approved. And then somebody found out about this. We're not happy with it. And it became public. And a crowd funder was established. And within three days, they made sufficient at that point after his death date. So I'm speaking to a ghost in a way. But I'm speaking to a funny, smart, incredible human who told me that it had been an easier process to qualify for euthanasia than to qualify for benefits in Ontario, Canada. That just, like I say, it broke me. And to be talking to a man, it's like dead man walking, really. He wouldn't be here. So how many other lives, how many casualties, how much collateral damage are we prepared to accept if we have assisted suicide in the UK? I guess what you could say to counter that is there are places where they haven't gone down the slippery slope. The think tank centre found that US states like Oregon, California, Washington, Victoria and Western Australia, where assisted dying laws are in place, there is no

evidence of that slippery slope. Is it not an argument to look where that has happened and ensure that it doesn't happen here? So the majority of countries where it's legal, it has extended or it began for a bigger group of people. Absolutely. I mean, in the States, we should also remember, it's only 11 states. So the majority of the states have said no

or have not even debated it. Absolutely. Oregon, just for time and the old people. But I guess what I'd say there is there is still, if you want it, if your doctor doesn't think you qualify, you go to a doctor who does. There's a thing called doctor shopping. So there are doctors who support this. We see that in Canada, certainly. And that's what happens. So the safeguards dwindle. And will it change in those countries? I think it potentially will. We're already seeing in the UK, so we haven't even got the law, but already there are

campaigners who are pushing for it to be wider than just for terminal illness. And once it becomes wider than terminal illness, then we become like Canada. You do cover a range of views in your documentary. And there'll be range of views in your documentary. And there'll be lots of people listening to this. And you put the caveat in that not all disabled people would agree with your point of view. They will want that personal choice as well. You spoke to journalist Melanie Reid,

who was left paralysed after a horse riding accident in 2010. And she brilliantly articulately says, you know, she understands that range as well. But she says the autonomy, the choice that the ultimate choice that she should have should be enshrined in law. Why is she not right? So campaigns began as it was just for people that couldn't do it themselves, who physically can't end their own lives. Then it became about pain and suffering. And it's really interesting that it now feels like it became about pain and suffering. And it's really interesting

that it now feels like it's about choice and control and autonomy. And one of my arguments, and I talked about that with Melanie, was about then where do we stop? Because actually, if it's for any kind of suffering, why shouldn't it be for everybody? Now, by the way, I am not condoning that we have medically assisted suicide for everyone, but autonomy applies across the board. So why is her suffering or my suffering more deserving of medical assistance to end our lives? And feel that we have a different response to it. I believe that we look at suicide prevention, that we look at saying, you know, what can we do to change you from... We don't see it as a desirable thing to want to end your life. But when you become disabled, or you are, that desire to end your life is met with less prevention

and more, how can we help you? How can we make that happen? It's about autonomy. And you would say, there's a very moving shot at the end of the documentary when you're standing on the South Bank looking at the wall of hearts from the people lost to COVID.

You would say, we have evidence that this could potentially be the case because we've already been here with COVID. Explain. I absolutely was chilled to the core during COVID, seeing the way that some lives were viewed. I could, I understand that we were in unprecedented times, as we kept hearing. We were. Decisions were being made on the hoof and bad decisions, but bad decisions from the top were being made. Would I trust a subject like this to a government, to any government? Absolutely not. And I think when you've relied on the state for support, for that net to protect you,

and that net is failing, when they think that they do give you is support to end your life, well, it's like, let's get everything else in there first. Let's look at giving people choices over their deaths, yes, and their lives. And that includes so many things and it doesn't have to include assisted suicide. There has been a poll recently, the most recent poll on this from Ipsos last year found that 65% of Brits think it should be legal for a doctor to assist a patient aged 18 or older in ending their life. So clearly public opinion is shifting on this. It's not shifting.

OK, why is it not shifting? Yeah, because public opinion polls, and you can look at this, and I can't think of the one that it's called, but somebody will probably correct me or whatever, have been around that figure since the 80s. So it's not that this has suddenly shot up. We're led to believe, oh, it's at this crescendo. No, on the whole, and I understand why. Because we're all human beings, and hopefully we all care about each other, right? So if you say to somebody, would you like somebody at the end

of their life to suffer or not? Of course, we don't want them to suffer. And we're fed, I mean, that's part of this programme is about restoring some balance in this discussion, because I don't think we hear enough about all the different opinions. If you're opposed, you're often seen as being right wing, or you're seen as being religious. Actually, there are many people who oppose. So this is about saying there are a multiplicity of views. Polls are fine. But when the consequences of a law mean that we will change our relationship with the medical profession and that mistakes would be the end of somebody's life, opinion polls are not a way to bring in a law like that. Liz Carr and Better Off Dead is on BBC One at nine o'clock next Tuesday evening, the 14th of May. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard there,

there are support links on the BBC's Action Line website. Now, writer and performer Sabrina Ali's new play, Dugsy Days, is about four girls in detention on a Saturday in their local mosque, stuck in the darkness after a power cut. To pass the time, they tell Somali folk tales and bond in a modern day take on the movie The Breakfast Club. Hayley was joined by writer Sabrina Ali who also plays one of the four girls herself, Munira, and began by asking her about the title of the play and what it means for these four girls. So Dooksey is almost like, I describe it

like almost like a Sunday school. So it's somewhere where we went like every weekend and like we learnt Quran and like Islamic teachings. And Doxie for a lot of us growing up in the UK was almost like a community centre for us. So it's a shame. I feel like it's almost dying out now because Doxie is sometimes,

a lot of the kids are doing it over Zoom or Google Meets and stuff like that. But Doxie is where I met a lot of my friends that I'm still really close with to this day. And I had a lot of my funniest memories and my best memories there. And is this play based on your experiences then? Yeah, definitely. It's based on my experiences and it's based on the girls I met in Dooksey as well. So I really wanted to write something where audiences could come in, they could reminisce on their times in Dooksey. So I feel like if you ask anyone who's a a British Muslim like oh tell me about Madrasa or

Duxie like they'll have so many stories to tell you and a lot of times they are funny stories. Well I know you were inspired by The Breakfast Club the 80s film classic um what in that film particularly resonated with you? You know I watched it when I was younger and I re-watched it again but when I was younger it really resonated with me because like I liked how watched it when I was younger and then I re-watched it again but when I was younger it really resonated with me because I liked how they explored the different archetypes of teenagers

and I feel like when I got into writing it was so fed up of seeing the same stories like the same two-dimensional characters on screen and we could only ever play one archetype

so I was like how cool would it be to have four girls and four of them in a room but just because they're Muslim or Somali it doesn't mean they're the best of friends. They're from completely different worlds. But how can I force them into a space? And the tension was the perfect home for that.

And also Doxie. Yeah, because it brings out those raw characters in the world, doesn't it? They're at their breaking point when this tension happens. But they also discuss Somali folktales and legends when they're sort of in the middle of a power cut in this evening. Give us a flavour of those folktales and why you wanted to incorporate them into this play. I knew essentially that I wanted people to take them back to memory lane. And one urban legend that we all grew up with was the monkey girl.

And I found out by talking to my friends that we were all told different versions of this urban legend. I was told that she turned into a monkey because like she wore her clothes backwards and my other friend was told she turned into a monkey because she talked back up to her mum and like someone was like she turned into a monkey because she was listening to music all the time so I was like it'd be so funny if I like bring back this old urban legend that we all grew up on and also the story of Dagder which is essentially the BFG, but not very friendly. And yes, it's so fun seeing the audience's reactions every single night.

As soon as I mention these stories, there's like a collective, oh, that story. Like, yeah, like we remember that story. Like we were told that version. But yeah, that's what I wanted to do. That's amazing. It's so nostalgic, but it's properly contentious. It's set in the present and it's very much of a modern sort of gen z girl exactly um you write it and you are in it yeah

tell me why you decided to to place yourself in it and why you felt like you needed to write yourself into this play um because i started off acting like that was my main thing i've always wanted to be an actress like my whole entire life so um i grew pretty fed up after a while like after going to so many auditions like playing the same roles and I was like you know what like I'm gonna write myself into these roles so when I was writing dog cities or like any other projects I'm writing it's like almost inevitable that I'm also gonna perform in them because that was my main passion and I was like why not also performing these stories when you say you were getting fed up of playing the same roles, what do you mean? Do you mean stereotypical? Yeah, like a lot of stereotypes and tropes and stuff as well.

I feel like the characters weren't really well looked after as well and they weren't treated with a lot of care. I think I spoke to a lot of the cast as well in Dooksy days and a lot of girls who grew up in theatre and acting and who were Muslim or black, they say the same thing. It's very exhausting like playing these roles so i wanted to create something where these girls felt free to be themselves and they didn't have to worry that they'd be portraying any negative tropes or stereotypes as well because i feel like how we see ourselves on stage on the screen is like how we see ourselves as well and how others see us

so it's so important how you portray these characters it's brilliant that you've written these characters and you've managed to break those stereotypes but is it not a shame that that's often what's only available to you definitely definitely I think a lot of time people think representation is about um who you have on stage and like this like it's almost like like a tick box criteria like oh we have a Somali character like there's your representation but it's so much more tick box criteria. Like, oh, we have a Somali character, like there's your representation. But it's so much more about the people behind the scenes and behind the stage as well. Like the producers are like Somali

and like we've had a Somali writer, like Somali cast and like everyone who's a part of Duxedays genuinely believes in the story and they're so passionate about the story. And like, we all started off doing this like with little to no experience, but we had the support from Cade, which are almost like a Somali Arts Council. And it was as simple as, I've got a story.

And side eye were like, all right, we'll give you the stage. And I spoke to Cade, like, how much do you need? Here's a venue. But when I was learning to become a playwright, I was speaking to other playwrights. And it's not like that at all. You have to jump through so many hoops. And they see you as a risk. But Cade and side eyeida and like the people behind Dux today they didn't see us that they genuinely believed in the story and that's the reason that we're doing so well today

because there's people behind like us who are rooting for us all the way. That's brilliant but what do you think needs to be done to make that more accessible to all particularly for Muslim characters what would you like to see happen now? I think give us a chance and also they see us, I think sometimes people look at us like a risk as well. They're like, oh, we don't know if this is going to sell out because the majority of people who do come to the theatre are predominantly white and middle class.

It's like, why are these stories, are they going to pay to see these stories? But we've sold out every single time and it's like a testament to our audiences. People want to see this and like there is about inviting people to your world so they could open up and they could learn and like they could engage with stories they've never seen before so the main thing I'd say is like trust us to share our stories and let us like share our stories the way we want to as well I think sometimes people come to see unrepresented characters on stage

and they think they're going to get a particular type of story, like a very meaningful, deep, like traumatic story. But I'm like, it's a comedy. Like it's a case to see us existing in these comedies where we don't have to over explain or like disarm your stereotypes that you have about us. So, yeah, I think it's about trusting us and just genuinely coming with an open mind. Sabrina Ali there and Dougsy Days is at the Royal Court in London until Saturday the 18th of May. Still to come on the programme, journalist and author Radhika Sankarni on the impact that not lying for two years has had on her. We'll have music from Rachel Chinneriri and remember you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free on BBC Sounds. Here's a question.

How often do you lie? We did a special programme here on Woman's Hour last year about lying. And research shows that on average, we lie twice a day. Now, most of these are just white lies. But what would happen if you didn't lie at all, even not telling a white lie? That is the subject of a new children's book by journalist and author Radhika Sangani called The Girl Who Couldn't Lie. Radhika herself hasn't told a lie for two years and it's had a remarkable impact on her. She joined me in the studio and I began by asking her why she decided not to lie for two years. So the truth is that I had been lying for years without really realising. If you'd asked me, you know, are you a

liar? I never would have identified in that way. I just thought I was a normal, nice person trying to do my best in the world. But a couple of years ago, I started doing a little bit more inner work and I started having therapy. And my therapist called me out and he was like, you know, you're lying to a lot of people in your life. And I was like, no, I'm just being a nice person. I'm protecting their feelings. And he was like, that is lying. And I kind of realised in that moment, I'd become a bit of a people pleaser. And so often to protect people and not make them feel bad, I was ending up doing things I didn't want to do, you know, going on hen do's, going for dinner with people I wasn't really close to anymore, even taking on some work because I felt like I should

to not upset people. And in the end, I realised this is all lying. And it was a really big moment for me. And I realised I don't want to live my life like that anymore. What kind of impact when you have that revelation? What kind of impact did you discover it was having on you doing all of that people pleasing? I was really shocked. Because it's like, you know, in my head, I think in our society, we're conditioned, particularly as women, I think, to think that, you know, people pleasing is a good way to be. And when I started talking to my friends about it, a lot of them had the same reaction as me, like, well, that makes you a good person. And it was a lot of undoing in my mind, like kind of unconditioning to kind of realize, no, this is lying. It means I'm not being truthful to my friends, to my family, to my loved ones,

but also to myself. And that was a real shock because I think for so long I'd been lying, I didn't even realise who I was or what I really wanted, what I actually wanted to do. I just went into the habit of saying, yeah, sure, to please that person. Right. So what kind of things did you start to tell the truth about and how did it go down? Yeah. So I started by doing this like really dramatic vow and I was like, okay, I'm quite an extreme person. Sometimes I was like, okay, if I've been lying my whole life, I'm going to stop. And I'm going to be completely honest, like no white lies, nothing. And it was crazy, because at first I realized, wow, I lie all the time. Now that I was trying not to lie, even a text like, oh, do you fancy a coffee? If I didn't

want to go for that coffee with that person, in the past I would have said, oh, sorry, I'm not free. But now I'm like, oh, wait, I am free. I just don't want to go. How do I say that? So I'd be there hours crafting messages like, I'm not actually available, you know, thinking, okay, that can also mean emotionally available.

And it was hilarious at first when I started to realise this is so kind of, you know, seeped into every aspect of me. Even things like, how are you? Fine, thanks. Am I fine? Or, you know, it doesn't mean I have to overshare with everybody, but I can just be like, oh, you know, not so great today. I don't have to, just because I'm honest, tell everyone my entire life story. But when you think like, you know, I have to be honest with everything I say today, it does make you realise how much we lie without even thinking.

So somebody asks you, do you fancy a coffee? And you basically go, no, I don't. Is that what you just text back? Well, no, thanks. I was trying so hard to not be rude. And that's been the biggest struggle, like learning to tell the truth and be honest without being rude.

And I've realised, you know, there are ways of saying this. I would just say like, I think sometimes I can just avoid it and just say oh not today but I can get in touch um another time if I'm available or something like that you know just I don't want to be rude. Isn't that delaying the rudeness for another date though or the honesty rather than the rudeness? You know it depends like there are situations where there's no drama I just don't fancy a coffee that day. But there have been situations with some friends

who maybe we hadn't been so close anymore. And there were honest conversations that needed to be had. I think, you know, we all maybe have those friends, or I definitely used to, where you'd go for dinner a couple of times a year, but you're not actually friends anymore. You're just trying to keep it alive out of nostalgia or history.

And so yeah obligation and that sense of should you know I should see them and so with a couple of friends it did lead to having really really honest conversations where you know with one friendship we both acknowledged we'd been friends since school but actually we'd just grown apart and there was a lot of love between us but really like we just weren't that close anymore and so we both had a really honest chat and decided to stop hanging out and if it changes in the future then how did you start that conversation that's absolutely there's so many people listening yeah yes I know what she's saying but how did you start that conversation so I think uh yeah I called her I called her um in a response

to one of those questions of you know wanting to do something together and I I just in a response to one of those questions of, you know, wanting to do something together. And I just said, I want to be really honest with you. And I was trembling. It was the scariest thing I've done. And especially as, you know, a former people pleaser to do this. But she heard me and she was like, you know, thank you for being honest. The truth is, I feel the same way. And that's what I think we all forget. We think, oh, I don't want to hurt their feelings.

But what if they don't want to hang out with you either? You know, and they're also doing it from a sense of obligation and should. I just think honesty can change everything. It just allows us all to be so real about who we are, what we actually want. And we might find out that we didn't really know people as well as we thought. And actually, we can't predict how they'll respond. They might have a really similar, you know, thing going on internally. Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. How do you feel now, two years down the line? I feel so good. That's why I wanted to write this children's book, because I wanted to inspire, that sounds a bit dramatic, I don't know,

encourage a new generation to think about this. Because, you know, I think I learned these habits of lying at a really young age age that sense of sometimes even at school you know oh I don't want to tell my parents I'm struggling because I don't want to worry them I don't want to be honest about this because I don't want to hurt this person you know I learned those messages really young and yeah my life has changed so much being honest I feel so much closer to my friends a lot of people actually say to me oh I can just trust you now even if it's about something silly like oh do you like my new outfit they know I'll give them an honest response so they come to me craving that honesty I feel closer to my friends I feel more aligned with all my work projects because I've even been honest in the workspace so it's just meant that if I'm

struggling with a project or if I'm just not really enjoying it it's kind of come out in a polite professional way it's come out and it means that I'm now working on things I love rather than things, again, where I felt like I should. And, but most importantly, I know myself now because I'm honest, I know what I like, what I actually want to do. I don't always have to convey things in that moment in the most, you know, open way.

I can save it for later. I can, you know, I've learned I don't need to overshare, but at least I know how I'm feeling. And yeah, that's what I wanted to inspire young children to do with this book, The Girl Who Couldn't Lie. You know, it's about a little 12 year old who was also a people pleaser. And she gets stuck in this magic bangle and she can't tell any more lies again. She has to tell the truth. And it's all around what does that do to her life? You know, does it get her in trouble? A little bit, yes. But does it also, you know, lead her to be more honest with her family, her friends and end up having a much more fulfilled, connected life? Sounds great. I want that magic bangle.

I need help with this. Priya, your main character is Indian. Two of her friends in the book are Chinese. And you speak a lot in the book about that link between Asian cultures and not necessarily telling the truth. Why is it more pronounced in Asian cultures, do you think? So I'm British Indian and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but that was my lived experience that I felt that a lot of things, you know, I'd get these messages from relatives, the community of, oh, don't air your dirty laundry. You know, blood is thicker than water and this sense of keep it in the family and keep it to yourself. And my two best friends growing up in London were also, you know, Asian Chinese, and they really resonated with this.

So I guess it's just a message I wanted to put in the book, because I think it's hard for all of us to tell the truth and be radically honest but I think it's really difficult sometimes if you're from a community where you're getting this pressure of you know keep it keep it quiet you know about anything from mental health to a divorce or you know loads of those themes crop up in the book even though it's a children's book yeah I think it's really important to talk about this lots of people getting in touch on um one. I'd rather be nice. Sometimes people shouldn't be forced to live our reality. What do you say to that, Texter? I mean, for me, reality is reality.

You know, it is what it is. Like either you're being, you're living in reality or you're lying. And I also think we don't really give people credit, you know, for how they could respond. We assume people are going to be really upset, but we might not be the centre of their worlds, you know, they might actually be okay with hearing the truth. Yeah, okay. Anonymous texter, I tell a few white lies to smooth things over, but I don't tell big lies. My partner is unusual, I think. He hates tiny lies, won't say he's ill to get out of an arrangement, for example. I always admired this until I found out he'd had an affair. It turned out that he had

been telling quite a lot of big lies. It was extra shocking and hard to deal with because his reluctance to tell white lies had lulled me into a false sense of security. That's a real shame. Sorry to hear that. But I guess maybe there was distraction or projection going on there. I'm not a liar. I never lie about the small things, but obviously there was something else going something else going on there yeah definitely and I think this is a big thing with lying you know it's just yeah it's so hard to trust people sometimes and you know I'm in a relationship now where we have a policy of radical honesty he knows I don't lie and he's been inspired by this and he's like you know what me too and you know obviously how much can we trust each other but we both really do and I feel like it's made our relationship so much safer because we just know we don't lie to each other about anything.

I'm interested to know then when you start on this policy and if you've been a people pleaser all your life and you start to say I'm going to actually be flat out honest about situations in work or my personal life when you get a negative reaction how do you stay the course because obviously when you were so programmed as many women are yeah to play that role all your life yeah how do you not overthink over worry about the impact that that honesty will have and how does that not change your behavior going forward so honestly the first year I keep saying the word honestly but honestly the first year was so. And that came up the whole time. And I, you know, even that phone call I had with that friend, I was trembling beforehand.

I felt super nervous and terrified. But I have found that, you know, practice. They say it takes 30 or 40 days or something to break a habit. And I've been doing it for two years now. I've relaxed into it. And I think I'm starting to kind of erase that sense that that conditioning. And that's why I feel so much more relaxed now and just so much happier. That's why I want, you know, other people to think about this. And maybe they don't have to do it as radically

as I have. But maybe I think all of us, you know, could be a bit more honest in at least some aspects of our lives. Radical honesty, give it a go this weekend. That is Radhika Sangani. Her book, The Girl Who Couldn't Lie, is out now. Now, earlier this week, I was joined in the Woman's Hour studio by one of the rising stars on the UK music scene, Rachel Chinneriri. She was shortlisted for the BBC Sounds of 2023 and also the Ivor Novello Rising Star Award and she's won plaudits from fans including Adele, Sophie Turner and Florence Pugh who actually stars in one of Rachel's music videos playing her supportive best mate. Her debut album is stunning. It's called What a Devastating Turn of Events. It encapsulates nostalgic indie sounds, many from before she was born, and also intimate lyrics about her own experiences and relationships. I started by asking her how the actress Florence Pugh ended up in her latest video.

She came to my show at Cross the Tracks in 2022, I think, with her friends, and I had no clue who she was. And then she messaged me saying, love your music. And then I replied saying, would you like to be in my music video? And very surprisingly, she was like, yeah, let's do it. That's fantastic. The album, What a Devastating Turn of Events. There's a lot of songs that deal with trauma, your cousin's death at 25 in Zimbabwe. Tell me about that, why you wanted to write about it. I think being the only one born in the UK, my whole family were raised in Zimbabwe. So there's a bunch of cousins from my dad's side, which are in Zimbabwe, who my siblings grew up with.

And I remember being called and told about what had happened. And it's like when I go back to Zim, it's always exciting to meet all of the cousins I've heard about. And when I heard her story, I was kind of like, how has this happened? Because we don't have anything we've never had anything like that in our family I guess before and people were trying to figure out what was going on and I think it started becoming more about the politics around what happened versus her actual story which I think is the most important thing so I wanted to highlight a song about her because I feel like I learned about her backwards it's like her I found out about her at the end and then learnt all the things before.

And it's because she became pregnant. Yeah, it's like before wedlock. When I would hear what happened to her and relationships, I think in the UK you can kind of overcome relationships in many ways, but I think especially in a very traditional way of being, which I feel like Zimbabwe, not all of Zimbabwe, but the world she lived in was like, it's like if you don't go down the really traditional route,

she would have been looked down on anyways. And I think that level of shame really made her feel like she had no other option. Well, you've given her a voice on this album, which is really, really important. I want to talk about the fact that you said you were the only child born in this country your parents were child soldiers yeah i i wrote that and then my mum messaged me like oh i didn't realize i was a child soldier i was like well you were 13 so yeah you were yes i just i mean that's so serious isn't it on the other hand you know the way you talk about the fact how your mum still when you were growing up she kind of brought a lot about how she had to conduct herself in Zimbabwe to your childhood, didn't she? But that nervousness around looking over your shoulder and checking for IED, that never left her, did it?

I think there's a degree of trauma, which I didn't realise she had. And it's almost the fear of dying all the time which is I think being in the UK it's something where when I was going to a primary school in Croydon the stuff she would teach me I was like these aren't things which I really need to walk five minutes to school in a very safe neighbourhood but my mum would teach me almost like survival skills which are only things you learn from being a soldier and it all made me so scared like growing up I was always just looking over my shoulder like someone's going to do something and everything is scary.

And now I've realised that is a result of her being super protective because from very young she's always had to shield from, I guess, death and trying to always fight for her own life, including my dad as well. Another thing you're doing is kind of reframing the St. George's flag, the flag of St. George as well. It's on the front of your album. Why is that important to do? I think it's important, which I feel more so now because I'm currently on tour and I'm on my last day of tour today. And I've met so many POC and black people who are teenagers, mid-twenties, who say that flag really resonates with them.

And it's interesting because the UK is our home, but I think when you aren't white, you don't walk past that flag with a sense of fear because it's not scary. But I think when you're black in POC, there's a degree of sometimes feeling quite uncomfortable walking past that flag because you don't know. Even if the people in the house are lovely,

you just have a sense of unease, which makes you feel maybe frightened to some degree. And I kind of questioned why do I feel like that if I feel like England is my home? And I kind of wanted to go through the emotions of why those things occur in my mind. But once I went through my whole album process and realised the UK is my home, and I just have to ignore the ignorance around the people who do put a bad name to the flag, then I'm just going to celebrate that this is my home and this is my home and I just have to ignore the ignorance around the people who do put a bad name to the flag then I'm just going to celebrate that this is my home and this is my country and this is who I am and I'm surrounded by so much love and I think there's a community there of POC and black people and white people in my fan base where we all feel so included and safe and that's my priority

um so so yeah I think it was super important to have those flags there and I think people questioning why I'm in front of those flags is what I want people to question why that's the case. The brilliant Rachel Chinneriri talking to me on Thursday

with her debut album What a Devastating Turn of Events is out now. And that is it for Weekend Woman's Hour. Hope you enjoyed our walk through the week. Join us on Monday when Nuala McGovern will be here taking on her new role as one of the Woman's Hour presenting team. Her guests will include Tamsin Gregg, known of course for her dramatic and comedic roles on TV, stage and film. She's currently performing in The Deep Blue Sea by

Terence Rattigan at the Theatre Royal Bath. Thanks for joining me. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.