Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Francis Fricker, baby loss, female con artists, the metaverse and online safety bill, women and boxing

Episode Date: April 23, 2022

A professional woman who was continually called "good girl" by her boss has won an employment tribunal. Frances Fricker was told by her boss which photo to put on her work profile because HE thought it was the most attractive. The judge in the tribunal found that Frances, an accounts executive with a consultancy company called Gartner, had been sexually harassed at work, and because she fought against the harassment by taking a grievance, she was treated even worse. He also described the culture where she worked as laddish and toxic. She joins us on Woman’s Hour.The footballer Cristiano Ronaldo and his partner Georgina Rodriguez have announced the death of their baby boy at birth. The couple were expecting twins. Their baby girl survived. We speak to Clea Harmer is CEO of the charity Sands and Katie Harris, who lost one of her twin daughters, Abikara, during pregnancy.We meet Rhian from Wet Leg, the indie rock band whose debut album shot straight to number 1 last week.We explore the Metaverse; a fast-growing sector that isn’t covered by the Online Safety Bill. We talk to Carol Voredmon MBE, who has campaigned for online safety for 20 years as well as Catherine Allen, CEO of Limina Immerse.We hear from Maria Konnikova, author of ‘The Confidence Game: Why We Fall For It Every Time’ on the psychology of the female con artist.Can boxing transform lives? We speak to Chanika, one of the young women taking part in Idris Elba’s Fight School, a television series currently airing on BBC and available on iplayer. We also hear from Rachel Bower, one of the boxing coaches on the show. Rachel is a former National Boxing champion and a Metropolitan police sergeant.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. I'm Anita Rani. This is the show where we offer you some of the best and must-hear interviews from across the week just gone. In today's programme, you'll hear from Frances Fricke, a woman who has won an employment tribunal after continually being called good girl by her boss. In light of Monday's announcement from Manchester United footballer Cristiano Ronaldo and his partner Georgina Rodriguez that they'd lost their baby boy at birth, the couple were expecting twins. Their baby girl survived. We discuss baby loss and particularly the loss of a twin. We meet Rhianne from indie rock band Wetleg.

The band have taken the world by storm after their debut album went straight to number one last week. Then this week, the government have been discussing the online safety bill, how best to regulate content on the internet. We explore a fast-growing sector that isn't covered by this bill, the metaverse. What is it and how do we protect children when they delve into this new, currently unregulated virtual reality? Then we dive into the psychological world of the female con artist with Maria Konnikova, author of The Confidence Game, Why We Fall For It Every Time. And finally, we talk boxing and its power to transform lives. We hear from two women,

Chanika and Rachel, both involved in Idris Elba's fight school, currently airing on BBC Two. But first, the woman who was continually called good girl by her boss has won an employment tribunal. The judge in the tribunal found that Frances Fricker, who was an accounts executive with a consultancy company called Gartner, had been sexually harassed at work. And because she fought against the harassment by taking a grievance, she was treated even worse. As well as being called a good girl, Frances was told by her boss which photo to put on her work profile

because he thought it was the most attractive. The judge also described the culture where Frances worked as laddish and toxic and that some social media posts were nasty and sexist. They started roughly around about sort of the February time in around about 2018. So they lasted for about three months or so. And they persisted? They did, yeah.

So the ones that were actually raised in the actual reading itself, it only sort of pulled out sort of specific parts, but there are quite a few that were sort of said to me vocally as well. So they kind of were, it felt like they were all the time, to be honest with you, over that sort of three-month period. It was kind of used as a kind of like a controlling behaviour. And your boss, Giuseppe Adderaldi, he noti, he didn't just use that language but I understand he also picked on your appearance and your photos on social media. Yeah he did, he picked a particular photo on my Facebook account where he thought I looked fat.

It was actually taken about three months after I had my child so there was a certain amount of sort of excess skin around stomach. And he was sort of commenting on the fact that he thought I look fat. Yes. And he used that a lot as well. It is shocking just hearing that at that time. How did that make you feel? I mean, at the time, I sort of didn't really want to sort of make too much of a fuss. You know, being in that sort of discriminatory culture, it was very difficult to sort of try and not be offended by it. However, you know, especially when something so personal is being described as being fat is after having a child is, you know, it's incredibly difficult to sort of tolerate. But I did to begin with. And eventually it just sort of wore me down. The judge specifically made a point about the language used. He said, language evolves over time. Words and phrases that might once have seemed harmless

are now regarded as racial, homophobic and sexist slurs. Referring to a woman in her late 30s with a school-aged child as a girl is demeaning. Frances, were you expecting the judge to feel so strongly about the matter of semantics?

I didn't know what to expect from it at all. You know, I was representing myself and I had absolutely no idea really which way it was going to go. I just know that I needed to sort of stand up for myself and to speak out. And this was the only process that I could have done. So, I mean, I cannot fault the tribunals at all. You know, what they've written and the meticulous detail that they went into was incredible. no I couldn't fault them at all they picked up on absolutely everything I felt so I'm really really grateful for them. Another term they picked up on was banter the judge said that some would suggest it was harmless he said it was not it was persistent and it's an important

detail as banter is so often used as an excuse for this kind of behavior isn't it correct yeah i think it's sort of um it's almost like a bit of an easy sort of you can just push it to one side and classify it as banter but actually when it's done over a very prolonged period of time and it affects you mentally and physically you know i lost a lot of weight during this time i'm not at all overweight by any stretch of the imagination, but, you know, even having it, you know, called being fat every, pretty much felt like every day, it does eventually sort of grind you down. And to the point where you do start to change who you are as an individual, you know, I didn't know where to go. I didn't know who to speak to about it. And of course, when I did try and speak out about it, you know, I was met with hostility,

you know, from Gartner. It was awful. And I understand this did go one step further because your boss, Giuseppe Adderaldi, didn't give evidence at the tribunal and the company didn't call him as a witness. So we aren't able to get his personal take on what happened. But the judge also agreed with you that Mr. Adderall wanted a sexual relationship with you. Tell us about that situation, what you did, how you responded. How did you deal with that situation? It was it was impossible to deal with it. I mean, I've done this because I know that they're going to be many of the women in the same situation as me right now.

But he was my boss. He recruited me. He set all of my targets. He practically owns who I was within that sort of organization. So having somebody like that, being persistent in his pursuit towards you without trying to offend him and to effectively to lose your job, because that's what would have happened. It was impossible to manage. So effectively, what I was trying to do was to sidestep it, you know, I was just trying to kind of almost, you know, sort of bounce it back and sort of laugh it off and kind of move on and, you know, and sort of try not to make too much of a thing about it, because I genuinely didn't know what else to do. There was no sort of particular helplines,

there was no mentor group, you know, at Gartner. So there was literally nowhere for me to turn other than just sort of try and tolerate it to a degree. And it didn't, you know, clearly it didn't work. It wasn't the right thing for me to have done. But I genuinely at the time didn't know what else I could have done to have made it any better. But eventually you took out a grievance and the judge said that when you did that, things just got worse. It did. I mean, I, you know, I mean, I feel a little bit upset by the fact that the media is focused just purely on the good girl comments. You know, I wouldn't have dedicated four years of my life just to fight, you know, being called or described as a good girl. You know, it was the way in which Gartner responded to the grievance that I that I raised. You know, they broke confidentiality. They effectively they you know, they they treated the whole grievance proceedings terribly so that, you know, they put me at a disadvantage.

I felt as though everybody was closing ranks on me. You know, I was completely singled out for speaking out about the treatment that I received from him. I hold Gartner 100 percent responsible for the behaviour that is, you know, that is acceptable within Gartner. I wouldn't have had to have put up with the situation if they didn't allow that sort of behaviour to prevail within the organisation. Well, I'm sure many of our listeners commend you for stepping up and taking that action.

I know that you also have a young daughter and this must have been a huge step to take considering you were raising her as a single mum. Why was this so important to you and has it been worth it? It's, you know, I look back, it's been four years of my entire life and this isn't just, you know, this isn't just ad hoc, this has been all consuming for the last sort of four years. I was representing myself, I was raising my daughter, I was trying to hold down a full-time job and also, you know, sort of do all the work, you know, that's required to do all of this.

It was excruciating, to be honest with you. It was awful. And is it worth it? I mean, the fact that they're still trying to appeal it. I am doing this to change behavior. I'm doing this to make, you know, workplace a better situation for other women, for my daughter when she grows up. I hope that they take the moral high ground and they actually do something about the culture at Gartner, because if they don't, then none of this is worth it. I never did this for the money. I did this to stand up and to be heard and, you know, and to change behaviour. That was Frances Fricker speaking to Krupa Padi on Thursday, and we received a statement from the company Gartner, and it said, We're extremely disappointed in the ruling of the UK Employment Tribunal. We don't believe the evidence supports the ruling, and we're currently determining potential next steps, including whether we will appeal this decision. At Gartner, we're committed to creating an inclusive culture where every associate feels safe, respected and empowered to do their best work. Now, to lose a child is the greatest pain a parent can endure.

The death of a twin adds another dimension to this tragedy. It was announced on Monday by Manchester United footballer Cristiano Ronaldo and his partner Georgina Rodriguez that they had lost their baby boy at birth. The couple were expecting twins. Their baby girl survived. In a statement, the couple said, it's the greatest pain that any parent can feel and that the birth of their daughter has given them the strength to live this moment with some hope and happiness. On Tuesday, Krupa Pardi spoke to Clea Harmer, CEO of SANS, the stillbirth and neonatal death charity, and Katie Harris, who lost one of her twin daughters, Abikara, at 24 weeks.

She survived by her twin sister, Kara L. Krupa started by telling us her own story. She is part of the SANS Insight Group that's working to offer feedback for the better care of bereaved parents. This is after she too lost her newborn daughter, Elora, after a full-term birth nine years ago. She asked Clear what impact it has for a very high-profile figure like Cristiano Ronaldo, the most followed person on Instagram, on breaking taboos around such painful loss and raising awareness. It's so incredibly brave to have made the announcement to acknowledge their pain and their grief because the death of a baby is such an isolating experience. People don't talk about it and you're left as a parent feeling that you're the only person this has happened to that nobody understands. And yet when somebody high profile can make a statement like this, it actually allows you to

know that you're not alone, but it also helps other people, family, friends, to know that they can find the words and reach out and actually give that support that's needed as well. And as you so beautifully have done as well, sharing your own experience. Again, anybody who shares their experience is opening the door for others. And I think that's so important. It's interesting. The reason I choose to share is because of that loneliness that you mentioned, because I remember when it first happened to me going online, Googling anyone who had the same experience as me. But of course, what I've learned over the years is that there is no uniform experience when it comes to loss.

Each baby, each journey is so unique. Katie, let me bring you in here. Talk us through your experience and your loss. Yeah, so as you mentioned at the beginning i was pregnant with identical twin girls and i lost my daughter abikara at 24 weeks um it was quite a unique and as you say isolating experience because i um my pregnancy continued to 36 weeks until car i was ready to be born so I had experienced this loss but I wasn't really able to grieve properly at that time I was very focused on getting through

to the end of the pregnancy and then when I did give birth it was almost as if I had just given birth to a single baby and that it hadn't really happened and it was a very yeah isolating and lonely time. And clearly not the experience you would have hoped for and an emotionally conflicting time we can say because on one hand you've got the joy of the birth of your child and on the other hand you're grieving the loss of your other child. Absolutely yeah it was very it was a really difficult time to navigate through um and as you mentioned at the beginning it's just you kind of find yourself frantically googling and trying to find places to find support so um yes it was it was difficult we i had a very good support from the bereavement midwives at the hospital and they were able to point me in the direction of

the twins trust organization who have their bereavement support groups at the hospital. And they were able to point me in the direction of the Twins Trust organisation who have their bereavement support groups. And that's where I found the most support really through this process. I found that speaking to people anonymously in online groups helped me a tremendous amount. Cleo, what support do parents need when they are experiencing such a loss? And of course, as I said at the beginning, there is no uniform pattern for grief, but there are some basics that we do share when it comes to trying to heal, isn't there? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think one of the things that parents need to be able to do is to make memories of their baby and listening to Katie's experience. That's so difficult, making those memories when you haven't ever met your baby.

And I think most of us, when we grieve, although, as you say, grieve differently, it's using memories help us. So making the memories of the baby who has died could be spending time, maybe if you're able to hold the baby or have photos or have something special of that baby is incredibly important. But then also having the baby acknowledged and friends and family using the baby's name, talking about the baby, reaching out to you is, again, really, really important. And I think what's particularly important when a twin dies is to know that there is this conflict of feeling and to be led by the parent. And the sort of terrible things we hear people saying are, you know, at least you've got one baby. And that if you hear at least coming out of your mouth, you should stop straight away because it is such a painful thing for a parent to hear.

And I really, really want parents, bereaved parents and families this morning who are listening to the news, who may find it very triggering and very upsetting to know that they don't have to do this on their own. They should reach out for support on this journey, bereavement journey that they're on. And SANS and other organisations are here for them because it's so difficult reliving your own emotions when you hear an experience like this.

And I think that's why it's so brave of both of you to be talking about this because it is very difficult. Cleo you mentioned talking about the baby mentioning their name many of our listeners have got in touch to do just that this person has messaged Kate says I would like to share my baby's name it was Anna she died at 10 years old in 1994. She was my only child. I miss her every day. This one from Mike. My little brother Simon died a few hours after he was born in 1969.

I don't think my mother ever got over this and her mental health suffered, but there was no support in those days. Very sad. Rest in peace to all the little ones who did not survive. Another one here, Oliver James Balls, born and died nine years ago. He lived for only eight days, always loved and never forgotten. The pain is still so raw. Katie, what helped you to get through those early days?

And when I say early days, it's important to note, isn't it, that grief changes how you feel a week on than how you feel six months on, six years on. It's very different. What helped you in those early days? I think probably the things that you've touched on really about people just acknowledging Abikara and acknowledging the fact that I had given birth to twins was something that for me was really important. My midwives were excellent at always speaking about Abikara as well. So when they came to do their checks, they would always mention her and ask if I'd been to see her at the hospital. So just acknowledging that I did have another baby that was still very much a part of my life and that was really helpful. And then as I mentioned the Twins Trust has been

almost like a lifeline at times, being able to connect with other parents that have been through that experience, especially because the loss of a twin is a very unique situation and as you said, very conflicting because you're going through grief and a new birth at the same time which is quite challenging um so they are on instagram facebook twitter and um can be found on twins trust.org forward slash bereavement they've got really good support available um and just being able to vent on difficult days with parents that understand what you're going through, I think has been really therapeutic. Can you explain how it has impacted your daughter, Cara-El? So she's very young at the moment.

Or how you fear it might. Yeah, I think my fears before she was born was whether or not she would kind of, you know, whether she would know that somebody was missing and whether she'd struggle to settle alone and things like that. She seems to be very much have the personality of two at the moment. So I think it's given her double the personality. High energy. Yes. at the moment so I think it's given her double the personality. High energy. Yes I have heard other parents in the groups that I've been on say that they have had their twins when they reach

older ages start to ask about their twin or kind of suffer with things like separation anxiety and whether or not they feel that's connected to the loss of their twin so I think it's something that you're going to continue to have to navigate through with your surviving twin as well yeah absolutely well I do wish you well with your your healing journey we've had this message from Loretta who says sands were amazing and a real raft at such a tragic time my husband went on to run half marathons to fundraise. My second son did a first aid course, which his company, let me just expand this, arranged with SANS to help deal with people returning to the workplace following a bereavement. So I know that lots of parents who get stronger continue to support the SANS charity.

This message who says, my son Jonathan died 38 years ago, age one month old. I remember him every day and celebrate his birth every year. That was Krupa speaking with Clea Harmer, the CEO of SANS, and Katie Harris, who lost one of her twin daughters. There is a link to SANS on our website and an article where both Clea and Katie share their best advice on how to sensitively approach those dealing with baby loss and particularly the loss of a twin. The indie rock band Wetleg have taken the world

by storm after their debut album went straight to number one last week. The album, also called Wetleg, features witty songs all about love, sex, parties and breakups and is the brainchild of Rhian Teasdale and Hester Chambers. Here's a clip of your mum to give you a flavor and i am delighted to say i'm joined live with rianne and from wet leg hey rianne how? Hi. Nice to see you. I have to say, you've set up a band with your best mate and before you know it, your album is number one and you're touring. This is my teenage dream.

You're living it. Yeah, it's pretty wild, huh? Tell us a bit about the album, first of all. What can our listeners expect? There's a few songs post-heartbreak. There's some really silly moments, I suppose. Yeah, listen that. That's why I like it so much.

I mean, and it's great music. The lyrics, that song that we just played a clip of, Your Mum, explain how dry and pretty brutal the lyrics can be. One of my favourite lines, which says, when I think about what you've become, I feel sorry for your mum. I know, cutting. Cutting, so to the point though.

I say you're living my teenage dream. Let's take it back a little bit and talk about when you first set up Wet Leg. Was it 2019? yeah that was yeah we just finished doing a run of festivals together in like our other friends bands or with other projects um and we kind of like we're about to put a lid on it and be like that's music for us we've done it now we're like we're grown up women. We can't be doing this anymore. And then we were just like, oh, well, why don't we just do it

as well as doing our jobs and as well as, yeah, all these other commitments that we have in life. Let's just do this as like a hobby. And yeah, and that's when we started Wet Leg. And then lockdown happens. Yeah. And what a gift. Was that a gift for you?

Yeah, it was just to have all that time space and yeah I'm living in London now but I spent the lockdown I spent it back on the island and yeah it was just like the longest school holiday yeah there were worse places, I suppose, to spend it than the Isle of Wight with your best mate writing music. Yeah. And the whole album was created in that time? No, there was a lot of writing that we were able to do during that time. But it was during the first lockdown that we made the Shays Long video. We also made another music video for a song called Angelica. And we made a few more demos and were able to find our management and record label in that time.

This is amazing. It's remarkable. I said you're living my dream, a lot of people's dream, I suppose, if that's what you dream about um and your album's at number one I know we can't believe it we're yeah it's really hard to process it's so weird and in such a short space of time in less than a year of releasing music it's all happened so quickly for you and yeah And I read somewhere that you basically set up the band so that you could get into music festivals for free. Yeah.

It worked. It worked. We're going to festivals. Humour is such a big part of your lyrics and what you do, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry I'm with my phone. It's all right. Rhiann's just dashed off because her phone is

pinging but such is the life of uh uh someone who has a number one album is it is it someone is it your mum saying i'm listening to you on woman's hour because that often happens when i'm working is she genuine it was it was it genuinely your mum i would, it wasn't my mum. I would love it if it was. She knows that I'm doing this. She's listening now, so she wouldn't call. Of course she is. So what do your families think about all of this success? Yeah, my mum's really proud and so kind of shocked because music is not really her thing.

She's very much from a nautical background, so she's very much from a nautical background so she's she's really excited but back to you creating music with your best mate you know as it is woman's hour let's talk about just the importance of that friendship and what that experience is like yeah um I mean, we are pretty quiet people. We're quite softly spoken. And so it's funny, like having Hester and her having me, we're kind of like always encouraging each other to take up space. And that's kind of the whole point of the band.

Like we were, when we incepted it, we it we were kind of like okay we don't really know what we want to make but we know that we want to play guitar like really loud distorted guitar and that was kind of about it really um but yeah it's and now everything is moving so quickly it's just yeah it's so invaluable that friendship where does the name wet leg come from um yeah it was just it was a there were a few names flying around um a wet leg is is what you call someone who's not from the isle of wight an ovener because you have to get your legs wet to come to the island. I see. Okay. That's what it means. Yeah. And also it's just out of context. It's such a ridiculous band name. It's just like a reminder to not take yourself too seriously, I suppose. That was Rhianne from Wet Leg talking

to me on Friday. Still to come on the programme. This week, the government has been discussing the online safety bill, how best to regulate content on the programme, this week the government has been discussing the online safety bill, how best to regulate content on the internet. We explore a fast-growing sector that isn't covered by this bill, the metaverse, what is it and how do we protect children when they delve into this new, currently unregulated virtual reality. We dive into the psychological world of the female con artist and finally we talk boxing and its power to transform lives and remember that you can enjoy woman's hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m during the week all you have to do is subscribe to our daily podcast

and it's absolutely free via the woman's hour website now this week the government has been discussing how best to regulate content on the internet. It's something we talk about a lot on Woman's Hour. The online safety bill will look to hold online platforms more accountable for keeping their users safe. Well, there is a fast-growing sector that isn't covered by this bill, and that is the metaverse. You might have heard this word pop up more and more in recent months, particularly if you have young people in your lives. But what exactly is it and how do we protect children when they delve into this new, currently unregulated virtual reality? The Institute of Engineering and Technology predict that the next generation will spend approximately 10 years of their lives in the metaverse. They've called on the UK government to make sure safeguarding rules

for virtual reality and the metaverse are written into the final online safety bill. On Wednesday, Jess Crichton spoke to Catherine Allen, CEO of Lumina Immiverse and co-author of the report, and Carol Vorderman, MBE,

who's campaigned for online safety for more than 20 years. Jess began by asking Catherine, what is the metaverse and how is it different to virtual reality that's readily available now? Well, metaverse is simulated experience, essentially. So we're probably quite used to seeing screens and these rectangles, glowing rectangles. We really situate our lives around them, you know.

But actually, when you think about media, there's actually so much more that's possible. The metaverse allows you to step into these spaces. Mark Zuckerberg describes it as an embodied internet. And I think that really actually does sum it up quite nicely. So it's a simulated bottled experience. You can use a virtual reality headset to enter the metaverse or you could use an augmented reality device and because the definitions of the metaverse still really really new um very much emerging

um some people also would debate that you can use a standard computer or mobile phone to enter it so you you say step in Catherine what do you mean by that? So I could be somewhere physically and be somewhere different in the metaverse? Exactly. Yes. So if you're entering the metaverse through virtual reality, let's say it was a group mindfulness session, a bit of yoga. You would pop the headset on, go in and you're all experiencing that virtual environment together. So a simulation of a forest, for instance, and you can all sit together, see each other's avatars represented. And that's an important feature of the metaverse is often that there are avatars when there's social spaces. And also it's connected to the Internet. It's a sort of World Wide Web, really, of immersive. OK, so just tell us about your research and the dangers you found with this.

Yes. So over the course of writing this report and all the research that Verity McIntosh, my co-author from the University of West of England and I did, in our fieldwork, we found there are significant harms that we really feel need to be taken into account in the online safety bill. You know, we have this golden opportunity that our democratic processes right now are currently engaged in what harms online might be. But it has to be future proof. So the sort of harms we've found, lots of harassment and abuse of women and also other minorities as well. As a woman going into this space,

it is something I personally do experience quite a lot. Also, there's the potential for desensitisation. So whilst VR has these incredible powers, for instance, that you could use VR in therapy to maybe address people's phobias, that can also be used, that desensitisation technique could be used potentially as an unintended consequence. Sorry, there's a fire alarm in my building. It should go off in a sec.

As an unintended consequence that potentially an experience could be desensitised. And especially we found that particularly worrying around adult content as well. Okay, fire alarm going off. I hope you're still safe. Carol, I'll move on to you because Catherine outlined a number of issues there. Are those the problems? Are they why you want the government to include the metaverse in this new online bill? Absolutely. And first of all, I want to say that I fully support the online safety bill. It's the framework into which we can put other furniture and hopefully specific legislation about the metaverse.

But it was interesting listening to Mark, your correspondent, say about how there is this pushback on the online safety bill. 20 years ago, when I was actively involved with David Blunkett for around about 18 months, to make grooming of children online illegal, there was even pushback on that, surprisingly. So, you know, none of this should be happening. We should be looking at this in a very sound and very mature way. I find it, you know, remarkable that probably the vast majority of politicians, all of whom will be voting on the online safety bill, have never even experienced the metaverse, and therefore cannot understand the massive difference between this passive interaction that we have now. I am looking at my laptop screen,

as are you, Jessica, we all are, and we're seeing each other there. That is what we experience now, and we know the harm that can be done there. When you get involved in immersive technology, it is exactly that. You put the headset on, you physically, if you like, as far as your brain is concerned, go into the room. All of us here are on Zoom and we're all watching and so on. I can disappear off. In the metaverse, my brain would be convinced that I would be sitting around a table opposite everybody here. I'd pull out a chair.

I would sit down. If somebody punches me, I feel it. You know, we've got haptic clothing coming on as well, which means that you can feel cold, heat, wind, you can feel everything as well in a physical way. And it's like now standing at a sink and washing your hands. That's your experience with water. Immersive technology is like jumping into a swimming pool. So the potential for damage is enormous. It really is all encompassing. There'll be parents and caregivers listening to this thinking, well, it's hard enough to monitor what my children are looking at online, Carol. So how can they go about protecting their young ones from the metaverse when they can't actually see it themselves? They can't see what the children are actually accessing. Well, there are various spaces, and Catherine has put them into the report, where children really are not supposedly, in terms and conditions of the headsets,

allowed to use them under the age of 12 or 13. But as Catherine found, there are many children, much younger, going into these spaces and there is abuse happening. And the potential, we all know how significant a harm to a young child can be. And there's nudity in there. There's violence. There's all sorts. It is the Wild West. And that's why I believe it has to have specific legislation, just as 20 years ago we had to have specific legislation

about grooming children online. Catherine, what are companies doing about this? How are they protecting the users from the harassment, the racism, the abuse? Well, there have been quite a lot of press lately, stories, people coming out with some really horrific experiences that they've had in these shared social spaces. And I should mention often these are like open social spaces where you can meet strangers. And the kind of abuse that happens, say, for instance, it's somebody entering your personal space, wanted touching, for instance.

There's quite a lot of stories about these kinds of things, sexual advances, harassment, et cetera. The companies have put in place various, all quite recent, various tools, very user-centric tools that you can um use for

instance blocking muting people um probably borrowed off how social media tends to get moderated but also now there's this personal safety bubble that meta have introduced and they're all very user-driven and often that means victim driven as well. So I think that's something that we should bear in mind that currently the work that's being done doesn't seem to be addressing the culture of these shared spaces where strangers meet. It seems to be addressing what's happening that the individual can do and the kind of tools that they have. It's a bit like, you know, encouraging women potentially to carry around rape alarms. Right. I wonder how are women accessing and interacting with the metaverse? Are they using it?

Oh, yes, yes, definitely. There is a gender gap, but there's still a really vibrant community of women VR users in the UK internationally. And in the UK, we have a fantastic cohort of women producing virtual reality and so yes women are experienced virtual reality of course but I should mention there is this gender gap especially in young people so just give you an example 11% of men aged 18 to 34 were regular VR users in 2021 according to my company Limitless Tracker that we've ran. That's versus just one percent of women of the same age. I would really really encourage women to take up a headset though because there are amazing things that you can do in virtual reality. For instance you know VR exercise for me over lockdown it really kept me going. Fantastic for mental health, education, field

trips, all sorts of learning by doing, new skills, etc. So there's some really great experiences and I would definitely encourage women to experience virtual ads, but there is a gender gap, yes. Carol, how have you interacted with the metaverse? Have you found it positive? Have you had positive experiences? I have had positive experiences because I have limited myself in terms of the spaces that I go into. But what I can say is it is so convincing that you, there was one tiny experience where I went into, I was standing on top of the Grand Canyon and it is the Grand Canyon. You know, this isn't, people must understand it isn't as you see in computer

games. You can put a real environment in there that will convince you that you are there. And then I was playing with a dog and doing just nice stuff. And somebody said to me, jump off. And I went, no, jump into the canyon. No. And i was standing on a on a carpet but nevertheless i thought no no and it really can play with your brain that that was a very innocent experience um but the people who have since this report has come out and and in the week beforehand who have said to me what they have experienced in spaces is the Wild West. Things that would be illegal in the so-called real world that are happening in virtual spaces, nothing is addressed about it. And that's the danger. Like what?

Well, I was in a TV studio yesterday and there was somebody of Black Heritage saying that her friend, male friend, had been effectively beaten up last week in a virtual space. Who is a Black Heritage too. So, I mean, and that's not illegal. And just I keep going back 20 years ago when this new technology called the internet started to come online, chat rooms started. That's why I got involved. It was a new tech and it needed specific legislation. And that's what we need now. That was Jess Crichton speaking with Catherine Allen, CEO of Lamina Immerwurst and Carol Vorderman, MBE.

Have you watched Inventing Anna, the series about Anna Sorkin, aka Anna Delvey, who duped New York's banks, hotels and high society into believing she was a multi-millionaire heiress. Or the dropout about Silicon Valley entrepreneur Elizabeth Holmes, who claimed she'd invented a technology that could test for diseases with just a pinprick of blood. Their cases have inspired countless TV series, movies, podcasts, books and even plays. But why are they so popular and what does it say about us as consumers of these tales? On Monday's show, we explored what role their gender played in achieving their deceit and the coverage they've received.

We discussed the history, psychology and cultural depictions of the female con artist and heard from a woman who Anna Sorkin left with a bill for $62,000. As well as that, Emma Barnett spoke to Maria Konnikova, author of The Confidence Game, Why We Fall for It Every Time. She started by asking Maria why we're so fascinated by con artists, despite the slight irony of doing this programme. It is ironic and I had the exact same feeling when I was writing a book about them, because on the one hand, you realize these are terrible, terrible people who are taking advantage of the best in humanity. And I truly believe that because I think that the

reason con artists are so effective is because they prey on hope and optimism and all of these wonderful things about what it means to be human. And they take this beautiful thing and they rip it apart and they leave all these lives in their wake. And yet here we are writing about them, talking about them, creating content about them. And I'd like to justify it a little bit by saying that awareness is important and to be aware is to be prepared. So I think that that. You wrote the book. That awareness is important. And to be aware is to be prepared. So I think that that's one of the reasons. But I think that we're fascinated by

them because they're what's called the aristocrats of crime. David Moore, who was a linguist who wrote the first kind of big book about cons, called them that. And I think that's exactly right. They are not violent criminals. They don't kill anyone. There's nothing bloody. And it makes them seem incredibly clever because the con actually means confidence as in trust. Do you have the confidence in me? Do you trust me? And they take advantage of other people's trust in a way that basically they don't steal, we give. They don't necessarily lie. We supply the things that they don't say themselves, although they lie too. Do we secretly admire them? Yeah, absolutely. And you look at it and it seems very clever. And it seems like, oh,

this is someone who is able to pull one over, who's able to trick. It's like a magician, but it's a magician on the stage of real life. And we love magic. We love magicians. And we actually just kind of, I think, have that halo effect to con artists as well and forget, very conveniently forget the victims. Well, I was going to say, just then on the victims, there's a kind of perversity, which you can see in the worst of social media, which, you know, it sort of magnifies a lot of the time, which is that you can then go from thinking, well, they're incredibly clever to, well, I would never have fallen for that. How do you go from that to having often I see zero

sympathy for the victims? You know, this is one of the few crimes where we tend to victim blame quite frequently. We say, how could you be so dumb? How could you be so greedy? How could you fool the victims? You know, this is one of the few crimes where we tend to victim blame quite frequently. We say, how could you be so dumb? How could you be so greedy? How could you be so gullible? You know, we even have expressions that are part of the common vernacular. You can't fool an honest man. Well, I'm here to tell you that that's absolutely not true. Honest people are the easiest to fool. Victims of con artists are not greedy. They're not gullible. They're not stupid. They're all of us. Because as I said, it takes advantage of just what it means to be human. If we blame the victim, it means it can't happen to me.

It means that, oh, I can admire this person and it's okay because I would never fall for that. I'm too smart. I'm too scrupulous. I would do my reference checks. I know when something is too good to be true. But here's the thing that people don't understand. If it's too good to be true, it is. It's great when it comes to other people, but nothing's too good for me. I deserve it all. You know, I had this coming. Have you ever been the victim of a scam? I mean, because I do operate as, okay, what somebody's saying to me, it might not be the case. And that is an occupational hazard as someone who asks questions for a living.

And yet I would always say I could fall victim. I try and remain open minded about it. And I'm sure I have. No, nothing too catastrophic yet. But have you, Maria, have you ever fallen victim? I'm sure I have as well. And I'm sure that I did not know it. The best scams are ones where you have no idea that you were even a

victim. That's why so many cons are underreported. I am going to feel, I'm going to feel spooked forevermore that they don't take, we give. That's going to be ringing in my ears at every message, email or whatever is going to happen to me. Thank you for heightening an already good sense of paranoia. That was Emma speaking to Maria Konnikova about the psychology of female con artists. You can listen to the entire programme on The Female Con Artist on BBC Sounds and the Woman's Hour website. Now, can boxing transform lives? That's the subject of Idris Elba's Fight School, currently airing on BBC Two. He's recruited a group of eight young men and women to give them an intensive course of boxing training over five months with the goal to get them to compete in a ring in an amateur fight. On Friday, I spoke to

Chanika, one of the young women taking part, and Rachel Boer, one of the boxing coaches on the show. She's an amateur coach, England Talent Pathway coach, and a Metropolitan Police Sergeant. I watched quite a bit of this, and I have to say it is incredible. It's so full of heart. Chanika, let me come to you first. What made you want to take part in this programme? I'd say I was at home for a bit. I had actually suffered a bereavement of my son,

and I was just at home, a bit depressed, just putting on some weight, not doing much. And I just decided that I had to make a change and I wanted to do something to lose some weight and get back to my old self again. So I was looking online for something to do that was cost effective and it would give me some training and I could get back to working out and I stumbled across the application they didn't mention mention Idris at all so that was like a really big shock um and yeah that's how I kind of got got involved and Idris picked me for some reason um and it's just been up and up ever since um that's really that's an interesting detail that they didn't put his name in the application. I think they probably would have got lots and lots and lots of people applying. It is an incredible watch, like I said, and we see all of you involved go through so much. But your story is really interesting because you're not in the programme at the beginning, you actually get selected halfway through because you were really sick with COVID. Yeah I got COVID really bad I actually got

COVID-19 pneumonia and with a special gastro situation as well so I wasn't able to keep down any food. I was in intensive care it was really touch and go didn't even know if I would make it out it's quite scary in there but um yeah the doctors are amazing at Barnett Hospital and uh for some reason I just started getting better um and I had a really good physio team and and they helped me get better and I'm here today able to tell this story so yeah great remarkable absolutely remarkable had you ever boxed before oh never how was your fitness levels when you started obviously just come out of Obviously you've just come out of well you've just come out of having Covid so you're at your?

So when I left the hospital I couldn't even walk actually I was in a wheelchair so if I could say my fitness levels were like minus 50 we'll put it there. I hadn't been working out like I said I'd been quite depressed at home so I hadn't been doing everything anything at all so literally from couch to the ring. And it was a very intense process as well, so it was difficult. Rachel, you're one of the coaches on the show, as I've said. Now, when you watch it, the first five minutes, I thought, no way. No way are they going to train absolute people.

People have never done any, never mind boxing, any exercise ever to get into the ring but it's unbelievable the transformation that they go through yeah we definitely had our work cut out but the guys put the work in and we managed to get some of them over the line and it was a really rewarding process for the coaches as well as the boxers how did you get into boxing um i got into boxing because i was bored um i joined the police and work shifts and had time off in the week, nothing to do. And I decided to take up a hobby. And someone told me about a competition called the LeFone Cup, which is a really old, well-known tournament within the Met Police.

Told everyone that I was going to enter. So then you had to? Then I had to, yeah. Unfortunately, back then, because we're talking about 14 years ago, there weren't many women competing, so I had a straight final, which, funnily enough, was at the York Hall,

where the finale of this show is. I turned up for my weigh-in, and my opponent turned up with a cast on her arm, which meant that she was injured. I didn't get to box so my first ever bout was as the default met champion against the area I mean that if you're ever going to win a boxing that's my way of winning I just couldn't didn't even have to fight and you get the job that's brilliant um what is it what would you say what is it about this program so the

premise of the show is that you've got young people from all sorts of backgrounds who maybe have been in a bit of trouble, who've kind of found it hard to settle. And the premise is that they go through this to give them something more. What is it that you can get from boxing other than getting fit and being able to throw a hard punch? There's so much more to boxing than the physical stuff. You really have to commit to it and it does have to become your life but I think once you do that you realize how much you can achieve in life and there's various barriers and problems that you'll encounter and you learn to deal with them and you learn a lot about yourself and I think that is what gets a lot of people hooked. And Shanika your story you know

we we see that you've come out of intensive care, but also we learn that actually for you to receive a punch, to actually be in that scenario is really difficult and very triggering because you'd to stand in a ring and be able to take a punch and I wasn't quite able to do that. You'll see further along in the show I'm quite apologetic when I hit my opponents, which you definitely can't do in boxing. So it was a double struggle for me, equally because I'm slightly overweight. Most female boxers box at 81 kilograms. I'm over that, so you kind of are aware of your size at the time.

And also, I'm in an environment where people are not turning away. They're there to fight and they're there to win and they're not going to let you off. So you have to find a deeper inner strength. But the coaches were amazing and Rachel was really supportive and I was able to get past that I'm really proud how did it help you because when I watched you I was we were so with you I was in tears actually when I was listening to your story on the show it affected I mean it would affect anybody watching so how did you overcome it what was it about the boxing what is it about the training I think boxing like Rachel said it's not just a physical element to it it's the mental as well

there's so much that you have to dig deep and say do I want this and and why am I doing it and I had deeper reasons I'd promised my son um when he passed away that I was going to make him proud and that's just what kept me going the environment was tough you're in a house with eight people um it's a new skill that you're learning a very tough skill um but it's literally that inner strength and and saying to yourself that I can do this and I want change I realized quite early on that if I wanted something different I had to be the one to go for it um so literally that's what kept pushing me and was just that I wanted to take a new path. And the only person that was going to help me was myself.

Yeah, Rachel, you know, how did you deal with that? You know, you're talking to real life. This isn't it's a TV show that we're watching, but also every person involved has come from quite difficult circumstances, which means that you have a real you're in a real position of responsibility. You are, but as an amateur coach you are and you've got a real duty of care towards your boxers. And Shanika and I had quite a candid chat and I was quite honest with her.

I asked her, is this actually for you? Do you want to do this? Because boxing isn't for anyone everyone competitive boxing um but she convinced me that it was something that she wanted to do and then she showed me that she could do it um but everyone who came into the house and the young people and the kids that every amateur coach has in their gyms they all have stories they all have backgrounds and you just need to make sure that you're acutely aware of those so you can help these young people.

And also mistrust of the police. And here you are training them. Yeah. One of the funniest moments, didn't actually make it on camera, where Jess, for some reason, had no idea, even though this was introduced to everybody quite early on, everyone knew. Jess is a great character jess is from wales she's actually very overweight and actually very movingly she talks about coming back to the diet uh just to bring people up to speed on who jess is the diet

conversation for her it's not about losing weight she says and i again really movingly says i just want to be able to like what i see in the mirror which says it all um she's amazing she is amazing you're amazing too though there's a lot you're all amazing but yes what did Jess say um well I won't repeat what she said but it wasn't very nice about the police and them all being something all the boxes around going but they're not all that bad are they Jess and she's like yes hate them all and everyone's giggling and she it took her about five minutes to twig no way yes she's like but you're all right you're nice she likes Rachel yeah so you've won her over but that's nice and I've done a lot of work um with projects in the past through the police and organizations like

the princess trust and it's all about this it's just about breaking down barriers. Yeah I mean we do we hear a lot about and we talk about it a lot on this programme culture within the police within the Met the culture of misogyny and Rachel as a female police officer you know how has I suppose the boxing helped you deal with any of that that you may or may not have encountered I don't know what your experience is. I think I've been quite lucky because I've not experienced it at work, but I don't know if part of the reason for that is because boxing has given me the confidence and I know that I would challenge things

and I think people know that I would challenge things as well. I am proud of being a police officer. I know we don't get it right all the time, but I hope this show shows that there are good eggs and there's a lot of good work going in across communities across London and the UK. Well, it is a really, really powerful programme. Has it changed your life, Chanika? Yeah, like without a doubt, my confidence has gone from second to none. I'm able to take a punch of a smile instead of cowering. I've got a new fight school family. I've been open to amazing opportunities like being here today. Just

little old me on Women's Hour. I've even started my own women empowerment workshops that I do with a charity inside Success UK. So it's just really changed my whole outlook on life and I'm just excited for the future. Amazing. Well, you're not just a survivor, you're also a fighter. That was very inspiring, Chanika and Rachel from Idris Elba's Fight School. And you can catch up with it on Sundays at 9pm on BBC Two.

You can also stream the entire series on iPlayer. Now, a few of you have been in touch about the psychology of female con artists. Pam says they have appeal because we're still stuck on old stereotypes of women tending to be good. Fiona says as a female entrepreneur I enjoy them but I'm not 100% sure that they're doing us any good. Jane says it's refreshing to see women protagonists regardless of depiction. And Nina said, they're a guilty pleasure, though I do take it all with a pinch of salt as they're being made to entertain us.

And Sue got in touch about boxing. She said, I'm a 71 year old woman and I go to the boxing gym regularly. I started in my mid 60s and I love it. You're an inspiration, Sue. That's all for today. Thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. Don't forget to join Emma live at 10am on Monday morning where we'll be talking to Only Fools and Horses stars Tessa Peake-Jones and Gwyneth Strong,

the pair who famously played Raquel and Cassandra, the wives of Del Boy and Rodney. They join Emma to discuss a touring stage adaptation of Ladies of Letters that they'll be starring in together, working together again, and of course, the iconic sitcom. Have a lovely rest of your weekend. I'm off to call my mum. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.