Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Gisèle Pelicot and Mother Courage

Episode Date: June 6, 2026

In 2024, Gisèle Pelicot waved her legal right to anonymity for the trial of her then husband, declaring that shame has to change sides. Her then husband had drugged and raped her and invited other men to rape her, filming as they did so. He was found guilty of her aggravated rape, along with 46 other men. Gisèle has now written her memoir, A Hymn to Life and joins Nuala McGovern to talk about her decision to have an open court, the devasting effect on her and her family of her ex-husband’s actions and finding love again in her 70s.New Ground is the UK’s first purpose-built co-housing community for women over 50, designed and developed on their own terms. The women moved in ten years ago, and the community is still going strong. But what’s it really like to live this way? Kylie speaks to two residents, Jude and Ann.Hannah Murray is best known for playing Cassie in E4’s teen drama Skins, and as a regular in the HBO fantasy series Game of Thrones as Gilly. But behind the scenes Hannah was struggling with her mental health, and she found herself involved in an organisation that offered courses in magical healing. The following year, Hannah was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. She’s since retired from acting and written a memoir about those turbulent times, called The Make-Believe – A Memoir of Magic and Madness.A newly qualified doctor, Charlotte Buttercase, has said she was subjected to repeated sexual harassment and intimidation while studying medicine at the University of Manchester. 32 other female students have now come forward to report similar abuse. Charlotte joins Nuala alongside Henry Budden, the co-chair of the BMA medical students committee. Mother Courage and Her Children is Bertolt Brecht’s 1939 tale of a wartime profiteer who prefers to see herself as a savvy survivor and devoted mother. Currently on stage at the Globe in London for the first time, Nuala speaks to playwright Anna Jordan who has adapted the story for a modern audience. Why is this story one for retelling now and why does it continue to be performed more than 80 years later around the world?Produced by Kirsty McQuire Presented by Kylie Pentelow

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out.

The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Coming up, med school misogyny, the newly qualified doctor campaigning for a formal review of sexism at her university. The UK's first co-housing community for women over 50, we hear from two residents 10 years after they moved in. Plus Hannah Murray of Game of Thrones fame on her mental health, so-called magical healing and documenting it all in her memoir, The Make Believe. and playwrights Anna Jordan on adapting mother courage to honour her late mother

and cherishing her parents' love letters in verse. But first, a defining image of 2024 was that of Giselle Pelico. She waived her legal right to anonymity to attend the 16-week trial of her ex-husband and others involved in abusing her. Jazeel was greeted by supporters chanting and singing as she entered the court. courthouse in Avignon. Now this is a story that is deeply distressing, as you will probably already be aware. Giselle Pelico's husband, Monsieur Pelico, as Giselle now refers to him, was convicted of drugging and raping her and subsequently found guilty of aggravated rape, given the

maximum sentence of 20 years. Over a period of almost 10 years, he invited other men into their home and documented some of them assaulting her while she was unconscious. Of the men who could be identified, 46 were also found guilty of aggravated rape, two men of attempted rape, and a further two were found guilty of sexual assault. It was France's largest rape trial and the world's media were watching. Giselle Pellicoe declared that shame must change sides and her actions have gone on to inspire other women across the world and led to a change in the legal definition of rape in France. She was awarded the Legion

Donneur, France's highest civic honour. Giselle Pelaco has written a memoir called A Hymn to Life, which has become a global bestseller. And Giselle joined Nula in the Women's Hour studio earlier this week, along with her translator, Corrine Kennedy. Nula asked Giselle why she wanted to tell her story. Throughout the trial, people were wondering how come I could have that kind of strength. And I think through the book, they're going to be able to discover it,

because through the trial, people didn't really get to know me properly. But in this way, they will be able to do so. I felt I did reading it. I found your book very uplifting, although at times obviously horrifyingly shocking. Let me turn to November 2020 when your life changed. You went to the police station with your then husband, Betty Co. He had been caught upskirting,

filming under women's clothes in a supermarket. And unbeknownst to you, the police had also found thousands of videos an image stored on his seized laptop, which catalogued your rape. The police take you into a room. They ask you questions to find out what you know. And they show you photographs, you lying lifeless on your bed, shocking photographs of abuse. It must have been so hard to believe your eyes.

Well, it took me a great deal of time to assimilate all this. I sort of had a kind of dissociation. I just couldn't really link the two. It did take me a lot of time to work out what had happened over the past decade. And I also felt for you with writing this book that you had to recall that and put it down on paper. And I wondered what that was like. It was a passage I had to go through that people could actually understand

everything I had lived through. Yes, it was a very difficult moment and there were moments of joy or pain but I really felt I needed to do it. But it was a passage obliged for that the people could understand all what I had traversed. We do learn about your life

up until this life-changing moment as well in the book. Your childhood in Germany after the war where your father was a French soldier your mother died of a brain tumor when you were just nine. you had an unloving stepmother and then the early death of your father.

I wondered reading, you know, this child go through such difficulty whether that is something that has shaped you into the strong woman that you are today. I think that this trial, which possibly was certainly not your regular run-of-the-mill standard trial,

I think that I was better armed or better able to cope with it, far better than other people. Because if your mother dies when you're nine years old, that already makes you grow up much more quickly than other children. And I did have some difficult moments and I'd always had to face adversity because of that past. I think I was able to face adversity more easily. Let us talk about the trial. Initially, it was to be closed. And then you changed your mind, which was an incredibly brave thing to do.

to have the case open to anyone who wanted to watch it, to waive your right to anonymity. Can you tell me a little bit more about that decision? I've made two years. So it took me time to make that decision. It took me four years because I felt that if I weren't to renounce to my anonymity, it would be as though I was isolating myself, I was hiding,

I would feel ashamed. So I'd go for long walks along the beach. it's my daughter who actually really encouraged me to renounce anonymity, because otherwise, you know, these 51 individuals, they would have got away with it. And so on the second of September 2024, I decided that that couldn't be the case any longer. Many of the men when on trial were not remanded in prison. You had to squeeze past them during breaks. You could hear them chatting in cafes, drinking beer together. That must have taken. taken incredible strength.

All of the men were convicted, but we do know there are at least another 20 who took part in these rapes but could not be identified and that are still free. And I'm wondering how you process that. I don't want to become paranoid.

Well, I don't want to become paranoid. I don't want them to control my life and potentially one day they will be arrested because they'll do exactly the same thing as they did with Mr. Belli. There was one part in the trial that I found particularly chilling, and that was when Monsieur Pelico during his final cross-examination said

he wanted to force an insubmissive woman into submission. We are hearing more stories now in the news of chemical submission, including cases where dozens of women have been drugged unknowingly. how do you understand that culture of sexual violence and I suppose a desire to force insubmissive women? With Mr. Pellicoo, he did say on a number of occasions that he wanted me to be a woman that would submit to him. But I always like to defend myself.

I was always very independent. I just stood up for myself, but there are many men that are in the same category as Mr. Piddiqu. But if I had heard a similar story to my story, then I would have certainly responded. And I'm hoping that if women know my story, that if they sense that things are slightly bizarre, if they sense a lot of pain, that they will react and that potentially also they'll go and have blood tests and they also get their hair analysed. And it's her racerua. She'll be sure if her married the drug or not.

Because with the hair analysis, you would be able to detect drugs that are in your system, for example. Because with the analysis of the shewes, they can detects. Yes, that's what happened for me. When you addressed the court midway through, you said, every day people thank me for my courage. I want to tell them this is not courage, but a deep urge in determination to change our patriarchal, sexist society.

You also declared shame, has to change sides. But do you think it has? Yes, because it's absolutely deculpabilize the victims. Well, yes, I think that we've got to make sure that women who've been attacked don't feel culpable, that they realize who actually is culpable. And I think that we also have to deal with this macho patriarchal society. The society has got to change. It's a long pass.

It's not going to change overnight. But I think women have got to react. They've got to have more confidence. It's a very complicated situation. In relation to that, since the trial, the law in France has changed in relation to consent. The French Parliament added consent to the legal definition of sexual assault and rape. Previously, rape or sexual abuse in France had been defined as any form of sexual penetration committed with the use of violence, coercion, threat or surprise. Now the law will say that all sexual acts done to another without consent constitute rape.

you must feel proud of the impact you're having on the legislation when it comes to other women. This process, yes, has permitted to make evoluil the law. Well, this trial, of course, allowed the legislation or the law to evolve. But essentially, just because the legislation has changed, that's not the be-all and end-all. We have to be able to change mentalities.

And it's through changing mentalities and through education that we'll be able to do so. The respect and the attention that we can put to the other. I understand that you do want to meet with him. That hasn't happened yet. No, not yet. Well, this is part of my way of kind of rebuilding myself. I'm not quite sure whether I'll be able to meet up with him

or when I'll be able to meet up with him. And whatever happens, if I do meet up with him, any answers that he will give me will remain purely private. I can totally understand that. But are you able to share with me what the questions would be? No, it's not It's the order of the domain private. No, that's entirely private,

but you mustn't forget that this man betrayed us and he destroyed our lives and I want to be able to really understand. And it was a betrayal of you, of course, but also of your family, so difficult. Among the around 20,000 images and videos were two photographs of your daughter,

Caroline, possibly asleep, possibly drugged. Caroline has said she felt she was the forgotten victim of the trial. Monseigneur Pellicoe says he did not abuse her. It did put a great strain on your relationship. How is it now? I'm accompanied my fee in her case of her case of her because she has a reason to respond and it's all the legitimate. Well, with my family, with my sons and my daughter, we're more united and stronger than ever. And I'm also accompanying my daughter in her quest for the truth. I'm so glad to hear that because I thought it was just so sad that something

already so traumatic then, you know, blew everything apart in the family that shattered a lot of trust and relationships so I'm very happy to hear that you are reunited. What you have to remember, you know, the suffering doesn't necessarily

going to unite a family. We all needed our own time in order to be able to to repair ourselves and it just was that's in that way that it was done And it's what it's happened. It's what it's But I was struck there when you say that you want to help her

also find justice. It's important for the victims when they're in justice. Justice plays an essential role It's really important for victims to get justice and it plays an absolutely essential role. She's a role essential role.

And so we will. And so we will, We'll see what may happen in that particular case. Returning to Monsieur Pelico, before the trial, the police told you that his DNA had been linked to an attempted rape in 1999, which he eventually confessed to. He's also been questioned over the drugging, rape and murder of a 23-year-old estate agent, Sophie Nam, which he maintains he had nothing to do with. I'm wondering how it felt or feels to find out about this tempted rape of another woman and then also an allegation of rape and murder. The arqueath is always in court,

so it's right that I'm not going to be pronounced on what is encore today. Well, I'm really thinking about the families of these two women today. The inquiries are still underway. I really hope that the rape will not be, you know, will not be proven to be him. but I really have thoughts for these families. I have really a lot of the families. I was surprised, but also delighted to read that you have found love again. It's very life-affirming.

And you say love is not dead, I am not dead, I still have faith in people. Once that was my greatest weakness, now it is my strength. and my revenge. Were you as surprised as I was when reading it? That's true, it's a great surprise. We're like two adolescents and it's really wonderful

that we've fallen in love. Of course it was a surprise for me. I just thought I'd end up with my family, with my children, with my friends, alone with them, and then life decided otherwise and I met this young man of 73 years old.

I feel as I've been speaking to you and really from when you walked into the studio that were in the presence of greatness and I wonder what it's like to walk down the street now or wherever you go being instantly recognisable

Well I know where I come from I know who I am I'm a very simple and a very ordinary woman and people have been incredibly kind to me and when I see women who are suffering I want to be able to also support them. For me, it's to say

to say thank you. It's a way to say merci, to me have put me. Yes, I think you've given a lot of hope, optimism, and voice to other women who were silent or would have

stayed silent in cases of violence, sexual violence against them. So that is a wonderful legacy. Well, I'm actually convinced that everybody's capable of, of fighting for themselves. If I was able to do it, then we can all do it.

We all have the necessary resources within ourselves in order to be able to fight. We just have to be able to find them. Jean-Disie, you're all capable to do it. If I've done it, you can do it, you can see video clips from Newellers' interview with Giselle on our social media platforms, including at BBC Woman's Hour on Instagram. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this interview,

you can go to the BBC. Action Line where you can find links to support. Now, what would it be like to grow older in a community of other women? In North London, 26 women are doing exactly that. New Ground is the UK's first purpose-built co-housing community for women over the age of 50, designed and developed on their own terms. There are 25 self-contained flats, along with shared communal spaces. The women moved in 10 years ago.

in the community is still going strong. The story of New Ground, which began almost two decades earlier, and the women who live there is told in a new book, our later years. But what's it really like to live this way? And could co-housing be a model more women should consider? Well, I was joined in the Women's Hour studio by two of the residents Jude and Anne, who've both lived at New Ground for the past 10 years. Jude told me how the idea for the community came about.

Well, co-housing is really common in Scandinavia. It started in Denmark, many, many, in the 60s, I think, 70s. And a woman called Maria Brenton and academic started researching co-housing. And in the late 90s, 1999, I think, she put an ad in a newspaper saying were women in this country interested. And the first group met at a pub in Kings Cross back in 1999. And that was the beginning of our journey. It took 17. years to get to where we're going, to where we got, because nobody heard of co-housing. We were a group of women that people thought, what are they on about? You know, they want to live together. And that was the beginning. And then we went through the usual thing of getting the right group together. I think about over the years nearly 300 women joined that group, but fell away because they're getting older.

They're in their 50s, 60s, maybe 70s. And they couldn't wait any longer to plan the future. But in the end, there was 26 women who moved in. 2016. Anne and I were two of those and we're still there. So paint a picture for us then, Jude. What's it like? You have your own space, don't you, but shared spaces? Yes. The development has one, two and three bedroom apartments and every apartment has their own outside space, be it a terrace or a balcony. And then we have shared spaces, which is common in co-housing. There's a central room called a common house and we use that for communal meals, which we get together

Probably every couple of weeks to have a communal meal and there's a large kitchen and office. The best thing about Newground is our outside space. We're very, very fortunate to be in, you know, on the outskirts of London with our own outside space and then communal gardens and an orchard and vegetable beds. It's wonderful. And there's different communal spaces throughout the building.

And they're set up in such a way that people meet each other, you know, going through their day. if you're leaving, you go through one central door. But everybody's space is private. So, Anne, if I can bring you in, what made you decide initially that this is something that you wanted to be part of? I had been living abroad and I came back to the UK

and I always say my daughter said, Mum, you can't be a nomad forever. And I had a previous career in housing. So I started looking online and it just popped up. It was serendipitous. And I went along and met the group of women. And I really loved the idea. So I decided to join.

And I was one of the last people to join. I sort of slipped in at the last minute. And I'm guessing that you all have kind of certain values that you share to want to live in a space like this. Yes. I think it's about being a good neighbour. I mean, obviously with 26 women, we can't all be friends. but we say we want to be good neighbours,

with green thinking in terms of gardening and recycling, and what we say is we look out for each other, but not after each other. So a good example is if someone has an operation or is unwell, we may set up a rotor to cook meals and give lifts to the hospital or the doctors, but it's not to replace the services that people need, like if they do need to go to hospital.

And it's a lovely place to live. It's very safe and very sociable if you want it to be sociable. And you also have your privacy as well. That must be reassuring to know that if you're in a situation where you can't get out the house for some reason to get your groceries, that there will be other people around you. Yes, it is. It's an intentional neighbourhood really.

You know, we came together with the intention of supporting each other. But it's lovely. I mean, recently I had a full ankle replaced. and I didn't have to call on my daughter or my granddaughter. There was always somebody to either bring some food or have a cup of coffee or a glass of wine or whatever. Yeah, people help each other. Let's be honest, though. You can't get on with everyone, can you?

There must be some friction, Anne, without mentioning any names of any of the other people. Yes, of course there is. I think when we first moved in, we were all so happy to live there. that we spent quite a lot of time hugging each other. Hi, you know, and everybody was excited. But, you know, that wears off. And you find that you prefer some people over others. And sometimes decision making can be quite torturous.

Because you run by consensus, don't you? And some people want that decision making to be used for every little detail. And other people are quite easy going and say, well, I'll go with the majority, you know. But it is tricky sometimes and it's not for everyone. I think it's a beautiful place to live. When I first moved there, I thought I was a very sociable person. But actually I found out that I'm actually quite private.

And I had to balance that with people. And, you know, I think it is a beautiful place to live. But, you know, it requires commitment, lots of commitment, to make it all work. Because there is a communal. meal every week. But that's not for you, Anne. No. No, it's definitely not for me. I'm not the world's best cook and I certainly don't want to cook for 20 plus people. And on a Friday night where I work full times, on a Friday night when I come home, that's the last thing in the world I want to do.

So I said to them, you know, I'm not going to cook and some people didn't like it. But most people said yes good for you I'm glad you said it out loud and now nobody pesteres me and sometimes I go once a year maybe and that's okay people know who I am a guest appearance yeah and Jude I was reading that when you were working you would have to schedule a half an hour before you left for work because you were so caught up saying hello to everyone I think I following on from what Anne said we were so enthusiastic it was like the first year of a relationship or when you move in with somebody and you try to be, you know, you make extra time for everybody all the time and then you find a plateau and you get on with it. And, you know, we, we learned the nuances of each other,

how to balance privacy and community. But it was a learning curve, you know, a learning curve indeed. Talking about relationships, let's talk about male guests. You are allowed to have men stay, but not permanently. Yeah, I mean, this is a question we're always asked, of course. It comes to this all the time. And I think people get the wrong impression. Of course men are allowed. I mean, we are, you know, the mothers of sons and

the daughters of fathers and we have friends and people are in relationships. But only a woman can own a place or rent a place there. And I'm always interested this is asked, but one of the things as one gets older, you need some kind, you need security

and space that's yours. And I think when you've got that, and we made that for ourselves. It opens things out. People think, you know, as you get older, things contract. But actually, if you've got the right things in place and you plan them, it expands. You've got the time to do things you didn't have when you were younger, when you were a family, a career, relationships. And then you hit this sweet space that we have to do the things you want to do. It's marvelous. So it's not that men are excluded, they're included on our terms.

And we've kind of talked around the loneliness issue, but it sounds like neither of you have any concerns about becoming more lonely as you get older. No, there's always somebody to have a chat with. I mean, we've still got outside lives, be at work and families and friends. But it's lovely to know of an evening, for example, I might decide I'm going to see a film.

And I'll put a little note out saying, does anybody want to come? I mean, again, it's getting. the right balance between privacy and community. But one need, I mean, the thing is you can be lonely inside yourself if you're in a crowd of 100. But there's no need to feel alone where we live. That was Jude and Anne speaking to me earlier this week.

And if you want to find out more about New Ground, their book, our later years is out now. Now, Hannah Murray was at the height of her fame as an actor in 2016, having played the much-loved Cassie in E-4's drama skins. She was now a regular in the HBO fantasy series Game of Thrones as Gilly. However, behind the scenes, Hannah was struggling with her mental health, and she found herself involved in an organisation which offered courses in magical healing. The following year, Hannah was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

She's since retired from acting and written a memoir about those turbulent times called the Make Believe, a memoir of magic and madness. Hannah joined Anita, who asked her how working on a film called Detroit led to her her seeking out a Reiki healer. A few days after getting this part, which was so exciting, you know, it was Catherine Bigelow directing and it was the biggest job I'd ever gotten, really. I didn't understand why I was feeling so down and why I sort of couldn't be happy about this incredible achievement. And so then I thought, I've tried so many things like, I was. was always exercising, I was eating well, I was doing a lot of stuff to try and kind of take care of myself but I thought, well, I've never really tried meditation and I've never really tried

that kind of side of things. So it felt really exciting and new and I was getting a lot out of it. So when I was filming Detroit, by which point I was feeling great again and I was loving doing that job but the material we were shooting in the film was very heavy based on a true story. It's based on real events and they're very dark, very difficult events to depict on film. And we filmed a scene in which my dress was ripped off my body and because of the nature of filming, you do it again and again and again from different angles, you do multiple takes. And so I sort of lost count of how many times I had my dress ripped off. And although I kept telling myself this is pretend.

It's not pretend in a physical sense. So my body was really experiencing that. And you were really being exposed. And I was really being exposed, yeah, in a very literal way. And that night I woke up from terrible nightmares and sort of threw up in the hotel bathroom. And I was just like really definitively sort of not okay. And I was seeing a personal trainer in Boston where we were.

were shooting. And she said, oh, I know this energy healer. Maybe that would like help you right now. And I, and I was just very curious about it and sort of open-minded about it because of the stuff I'd been delving into in the previous months. So I thought, okay, I'll go along to see this healer. And if nothing else, it'll be an interesting story. I can tell people about that one weird time I went to see an energy healer. But it was a lot more than I. I expected. It was a really life-altering experience, I suppose. So what were you searching for then from then? Because that led you to take courses in healing. I mean, when I had that first healing, it left me with a belief in magic.

And I think magic can be quite a difficult word to define. I think sometimes when I describe the book to people and I use the word magic, they sort of say, what do you mean? like rabbits out of hats. But I think I'd always had this kind of longing that I think a lot of people have was children. You know, we read books about magic. We read about kind of a fictional magic and we think, oh, how amazing would it be if that was real? And then when I had this healing, I felt a invisible force moving my body, which was something I did not expect to experience, had never experienced anything like it in my life. And so I just felt like, oh, this is magic, this is what magic must feel like.

And so I just, really, it was wanting more of that kind of transcendent, almost otherworldly feeling. And I thought that could be the thing that could really fix me and fix these up and down moods and these periods of feeling really down and sad and awful. And I just thought, this is it. This is the answer to everything. So you took the course in healing and initially you thought you found what you were looking for. Yes. So what went wrong?

So I took two courses. The first one I took was a two-day course, which I really, really loved, and which gave me some sort of rituals I could do day to day in my own life at home. And kind of I found those really positive. And then a few months after that, I took a week-long course where I was learning how to perform the healing that I'd received in Boston, which I was very excited about. and again, didn't quite know what to expect or what it would be like and didn't quite believe I could really end up with the power to sort of heal other people,

but was excited by the possibility that I could and that I could sort of give something good into the world, help other people, help my friends, help my family, whatever it was. And then, again, it was a lot more intense that experience than I had expected. And as the days progressed, it was such an overwhelmingly magical experience. But by the midpoint of the week, I had started hearing voices, which I thought was part of the magic. And I thought it was incredible to be hearing voices. And I thought, oh, my God, I've like broken through to this whole new reality where I have all this guidance and this insight. And then on the final day of the course, I would say,

that my mind and my sense of reality completely broke down. Yeah, you had a psychotic. I did have a psychotic episode, yes. And you were sectioned? I was sectioned. I spent three weeks on a psychiatric ward. When you were in a psychiatric hospital, your friends and family were coming to see you,

but you were delusional at that stage? I was profoundly delusional, yeah. I was... What do you remember? Tell us. I mean, I remember a lot of different things. There were different phases to those delusions. But I mean, I think in the very earliest days of being in hospital, I would say I probably didn't know my own name.

I didn't understand that I was in a hospital because I thought that I was the savior of the universe. I thought that I had saved the world and we were now in this utopian paradise that I was a sort of ruler of. And it was very confused. because I, you know, I was in hospital and I wasn't allowed to leave and I kind of couldn't understand why there were limits on where I could go, but I was sort of convinced that the plan would eventually unfold and become clear to me. How long before you came out of that mindset? It's slightly difficult to say because by the time I left hospital, I understood that I had been sectioned.

I understood that I was in a psychiatric ward and I understood who I was and, you know, know, my friends and family were visiting me, I understood who they were. But I still thought, well, what's really going on underneath all of this is that I've saved the planet. And it took a really gradual process. And I think most recovery is gradual. It isn't linear. And it's very two steps forward, one step back. And it was really important to me to try and depict that accurately in my memoir. So what was it about that experience that made you want to write it down? I just couldn't stop thinking about it. it. I could not get over it. I could not process it. I could not understand it. There was so much

kind of mystery to me and what had happened. I didn't have clear explanations. I didn't have a kind of rational understanding. And so it was only, it was about a year and a half after I left hospital. I was living in L.A. at that point, and I took my laptop to a coffee shop. And I thought, let's just try writing about this. Because I had lots of memories. I had a lot of very vivid memories, but they didn't make sense to me. And I thought, maybe if I get them all out, I was really just writing for myself at that point. I didn't think I was writing a book. But I thought I can get these down. I can sort of examine everything that happened around then that I remember. And that will hopefully lead me to some answers. It's definitely

led to a very extraordinary memoir, but you decided not to act anymore. Yeah, that happened a little bit after I started writing for various reasons, but partly it was that I fell in love with writing so much and I thought I really want this to be my full-time focus. And also I found the audition process, particularly in LA, it wasn't good for me. I couldn't go into auditions and be this kind of shiny, happy, like, upbeat, please give me a job person. I'd gained quite a lot of weight from the medication I've been on hospital. I found I was really uncomfortable in my body. I was very self-conscious of what casting directors or producers thought about me.

And ultimately, stepping away from acting has been such a positive decision and really, really good for my wellbeing, my mental health overall, I think. Do you think that body image, body shaming is still significant issues for female actors? I think 100%. I think it's really, really hard to be a woman in the public eye, and if you lose weight, everyone will tend to applaud it.

But they might also have opinions about that that are negative. But when I was doing the press tour for the final series of Game of Thrones, there were a lot of stories speculating that I was pregnant. And I remember thinking, oh, that's the only acceptable way you can gain weight as a woman in the public eye is to be pregnant. And I wasn't pregnant. and I also didn't feel like they should be allowed to comment on my body in that way. And how are you? I'm good, yeah, and well.

Sometimes I think myself in my 20s would look at me now and think, God, you're so boring. But I quite like a kind of quieter, more routine life. I don't drink anymore. Like there's a lot of kind of drinking and drug use in the book because that was what my 20s. were like. And I think now things are simpler, things are quieter, but I'm so much happier for that. Hannah Murray speaking to Anita there, and her book is called The Make Believe. If you've been affected by issues raised in that interview, you can find links to support and advice on the BBC Action Line website. Now, still to come on the programme playwright Anna Jordan

on making mother courage her own and doing it for her late mum. And don't forget you can join woman's hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week. Just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals

from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Next, a newly qualified doctor, Charlotte Buttercase, has said that she was subjected to repeated sexual harassment and intimidation while studying medicine. 32 other female students have now come forward to report similar abuse at Manchester University. Charlotte's waived her right to anonymity and written an open letter to the university

to request a formal review of sexism within the School of Medical Sciences. More than a thousand women have added their signatures. Well, Charlotte Buttercase spoke to Women's Hour early this week, along with Henry Budden, the co-chair of the BMA Medical Students Committee. Charlotte started by telling Nula what happened to her. So on the 16th of April, 2016, I received an anonymous phone call during which I was subjected to sexually harassing comments. And at the time, I believed I was alone in this. But as soon as I brought it to the attention of my cohort, other newly qualified doctors, it became evident that this was. was pervasive because not only were we affected in our year group, younger students, as young

as their first year of study, 18-year-olds, are being sexually harassed, be that in person or through these anonymous phone calls. So it's a very large issue and a very large university, so I knew it needed to be platformed to our vice-chance. And this is just recently as that happened to you, as you described. What prompted you to speak out, though, because it can be difficult? Of course, but I have real admiration and a respect to my cohort. I've only been with them since 24 as I did my master's degree. However, they've

proved to me time and time again that both the men and women that I work alongside are supportive, they are inspiring and they are passionate about being the best doctors, upholding an ethical standard that is expected of them. So I wanted to raise it to them, give them the opportunity

to reassure me that this was a minority of students that would do this to me. And just seek comfort in people who I've worked alongside for so long. And the response I got was so overwhelming that I knew I needed to speak to more people. I needed to speak to the younger students, give them the opportunity to tell their stories. And I'm so honoured to now have 32 women alongside me, have had the courage to speak up. Those are the 32 women that have come forward.

And what are they telling you about their experiences? It's a myriad of experiences. So pertaining to the anonymous phone calls, these have been going on since the earliest was 2023 and one of the women who testified was actually phoned again this weekend and two 18 year olds came forward yesterday to say they were also phoned this weekend that's why the number is now 32 but the original article was 30 so during these calls it's usually in the early hours of the morning when you're alone you're vulnerable you're in bed in a dark room you'll get a phone call maybe from a man by himself for me it was one man speaking three men laughing and they'll subject you

to various scare tactics they'll say they know your name though it's say they know where you live. Sometimes they shout gender-based slurs at them. They say they threaten them with violence. They say, I know who you are. I've got you through hospital systems. They might ask them to perform sexual favours and generally just perform demeaning, gleeful activities

where they find women to be their playthings for their pleasure and subject us to these awful comments and just try and take your power from you, essentially. It's interesting because it's such a juxtaposition as well, that support that you feel you have, the women and men that are around you in work in your cohort, for example, compared to what you're experiencing and others through these phone calls. What do you believe lies at the root of this behaviour?

It's so disappointing and I find it incredibly challenging to get into the psyche of the kind of person, the kind of group of people that would do this. But I think the longer I've been part of this case, I think it's this terrible cycle of self-imposed privilege. I don't believe we are encouraged in any way to engage in these behaviours. We've got surviving in scrubs, NHS England, speaking out against sexism and harassment. But I believe from the moment you enter into medical school, you're told you're not just a student. You're a medical student.

Even before that, you're usually getting straight A's. You're really rewarded for who you are, what you achieve. And I think when you enter into medical school, I've told people before, even landlords give certain leniencies. You're not just students. Really? So I'm more willing to give you a contract because you're different than others. It's a really pervasive issue.

I'm platforming sexism that women who are my seniors have been experiencing for decades. So I think it's a very deeply rooted issue. And so what you're saying is you do believe in the way you're experiencing it, that that culture is something particular to medical students coming from a sense of entitlement? The statistics show that in medical, dental and veterinary science programs, be are disproportionately affected by sexual harassment. That's a government level report that came out earlier in May. So what do you want to see happen?

The first thing I want to see happen is the women involved in this. I'm very inspired by the greatest whistleblower, which was Chiselle Pelico, who had the courage to come forward, put her name to the most heinous acts I've ever heard of. And in my coming forward, there are 32 women that have felt safe to come to me. And I want to build community. I want to advocate for their well-being and make them feel bigger and bolder and give them the ability

to speak out and feel brave that these men are so cowardly. They would never do this in their own names and not be frightened anymore. Protect them first and foremost. But then secondly, actually get some real accountability from these perpetrators.

They did it again this weekend. Even with all of this media presence, this noise, this attention, a university doing formal action. They still feel brave enough to harass us, 18-year-old girls. reached out to me today to say that they were harassed on Saturday in the early hours, and they've been terrified for days.

And it was seeing the BBC article that meant they knew that this was going on. And then we need to think about that broader cultural review. We've got a BMA representative with us who've been, they've been working on a statutory duty of care with the government for some time. There's a great deal of resistance from universities. It was parents who lost their children to suicide at universities that proposed this. And it would protect people from things like sexism, harassment, racism, all of this discrimination that's so pervasive, it makes the university's duty bound to

protect us. And it's not an opt-in system anymore. So those are the three things I'd like to see happen. And we will speak to another guest in just a moment. Also, I want to read a statement from Professor Ashley Blum, Vice President and Dean of the Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health that said the issues raised are deeply concerning and we are treating them with the utmost seriousness. No member of our community should ever experience behaviour that makes them feel unsafe, intimidated or harassed. Our immediate priority is supporting the students affected. We've launched a formal investigation into the specific allegations raised.

We're also undertaking a wider review of the cultural and systemic issues identified. We will continue to take whatever action is necessary to address the issues identified and deliver meaningful, lasting change. We know that our students and colleagues must have confidence that concerns would be listened to, taken seriously and acted upon. I want to thank everyone who has come forward and shown courage in speaking up. I would strongly encourage anyone who has experienced or witnessed a similar behaviour to report it so that appropriate action can be taken. Let me turn also to our second

guest, Henry Button, who's the BMA, the British Medical Association, Medical Students' Committee co-chair. Henry, good to have you with us. You've heard Charlotte's testimony and also relaying testimony that she has heard from others. What's your response? Hi, good morning. Thank you for having me on. I mean, firstly, I'd like to pay credit to the brave and powerful campaign that Charlotte's been leading in Manchester along with the 32 other students and call out the absolutely abhorrent behavior, which is ongoing. The BMA has been working with students in Manchester, as well as an organization called Surviving in Scrubs, who have co-authored a report with us, which has revealed a deeply embedded culture of sexism and sexual violence across medical schools and placements around the UK.

Unfortunately, the data there has shown that two in five female medical students have been subject to sexual violence whilst at university, whilst on placement, which is a shocking statistic. And of course, we are working to recommend big changes for both universities and placement providers. A key one, Charlotte has mentioned, calling for a statutory duty of care for universities to have for their students. That is not in place at the moment. That's right, no. And what would that look like? So a statutory duty of care would mean that the universities have a responsibility to provide the care that these students need whilst on placement. So that would be reporting channels for these assaults, which we know are currently not up to standard. One of the other key recommendations

in our report is calling for anonymous platforms that students can report this. As students often feel unable to report these cases due to fear of professionalism concerns being raised against them or repercussions, which is simply not good enough and can lead to an underreporting of these issues. Let me throw that back to you, Charlotte. What do you think about that? So University of Manchester uniquely does have this anonymous reporting system, and I think it's been a real benefit to this campaign.

When I've been able to signpost women to a service through which they can anonymously report what they've been through, it adds to that body of evidence, whilst not misconduct, making them constantly relive that trauma that they've been through, because whilst it's a lot of anonymous phone calls, some women have been physically harmed and sexually assaulted. So it's definitely a positive. I think we also need to consider how uniquely in medicine we tackle these issues. It's also a failing of, in a lot of cases, fitness to practice for what's getting true accountability

and consequences. And surviving in scrubs, I've discussed this with them. And there's so many instances where women do this, they don't do it anonymously. They have that courage and they say a name and they still have to be on placement with that person who did that to them. So that is obviously an issue. I'm thinking about you, Charlotte, just on an issue that Henry raised there. Did you worry about repercussions at all? I think if somebody were to offer repercussions against me for speaking out against sexual harassment and sexual violence,

that speaks much greater to their values and their character than it would mind. I've always been raised. I think it was my great-great-grandfather who said, if you know you're in the right fight, because otherwise you won't be able to live with it. So I wouldn't be able to sit in this silently knowing 15 other women were affected when I first wrote the letter. And now it's 32. That's just the tip of the iceberg. I couldn't stay silent on it no matter what. Thank you both very much for speaking to me. I also want to read a statement from the Department of Education. They say we're absolutely clear that abuse and harassment has no place in universities or colleges.

we will continue working closely with providers to keep students safe throughout their education. The Office for Students' 2025 harassment and sexual misconduct requires to requirements ensure all English higher education providers have in place minimum standards to prevent, address and investigate sexual abuse and harassment. Anula's guest was Charlotte Buttercase and Henry Budden. As always, if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this discussion, just go to the BBC Action Line website.

Mother Courage and her children is playwright Bertolt Brecht's 1939 tale of a wartime profiteer. It's widely considered one of the most important anti-war plays of the 20th century. Mother Courage likes to see herself as a devoted mother committed to the survival of her three grown children. But her relentless attempts at making a quick buck, selling anything from burgers to ammunition in often call in to question her primary motive. It's a play that after 80 years is still regularly performed all around the world and it's just opened in London.

Well, the woman behind this latest version, the Bruntwood Prize-winning playwright Anna Jordan, told Nula how she sees the story of Mother Courage. I would describe it as a sort of carnivalesque, I'm going to say. It's a really good word to use. Yeah. Huge sort of experience. explosion of a story of a mother who has three children and is living through this endless

experience of war. And she is trying to survive and she is trying to thrive. She's trying to keep her family alive. And I think that essentially is the story, all of the things that kind of happen around her, the people that move in and out of her orbit. Her view, her motivation is so clear. And I think that it's the thought of the distance between the surviving and thriving is where sometimes people lose sympathy and empathy from other courage because actually it's not all about self-sacrifice. She enjoys the stuff she does sometimes. You know, she loves running a club. She loves dealing drugs and arms. You know, she thrives on that stuff. In a way, perhaps characteristics more often attributed to a man.

Absolutely, yeah. So that's what drew me to the play, really, I suppose, in the biggest sense. It's a true exploration of this incredible, flawed, mighty, you know, human female character that Michelle Terry just embodies so incredibly. Well, let's hear a little of Michelle Terry. She is the artistic director of the globe, playing Mother Courage, who is at this point, Volga, a brutal communicator. And this is from the end of Act 1.

Mother Courage is talking to soldiers from the Blue Army, the minister and her daughter, Catherine. Yeah, I feel sorry for the big wigs in a way. Why? Well, they're no different to us. They came into the world screaming just like we did. They sacked on their mother's tits. They're not monsters.

They're men with monstrous thoughts. the whole world. They want statues of themselves. They want glory in total control. The problem is we give it to him. And there she is. With Brecht, while researching for this, he wrote this with his assistant, Marguerite Stefan, who I had never heard her name before. I know. And I believe he had collaborated with other women on other work as well. Yeah. Do you know, it's funny, I've got her name written on my hand. I don't think I would have forgotten to mention her, which is just really, really important. And I think that

you know, at a time where there's lots of discussion, there's been discussion, you know, about who gets to write who gets to write particular stories, etc. I think that it's really important to recognise Marguerite Stefan, yes, that

nobody knows her name, but she, it is said that she had a significant contribution to the writing of Mother Courage. And yeah, I just think that's so important. She's such an incredible hero. When I was first approached by headlong theatre company about writing, adapting a classic play for the Royal Exchange, which is where this was first in production,

seven years ago now. There weren't many plays that offer such a fantastic role for a woman. So I was really drawn to that. And you've been involved. as I mentioned at the top of the program in so many, I suppose, strong characters one day, Succession, Killing Eve. But I was really interested to read

that you've published your first anthology of poems, decades. I have. I've got a copy for you, actually. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you very much. I'm going to leave it by the kettle. You'll find it there. You know my habits and my routine.

There's never too long before I go back to the kettle. Yeah. But let's talk about a love story. Your dad and your mom. Oh, yeah. Can you tell us that story where poetry comes in? I can. So we're a big poetry family.

So my dad, Peter Gordon, who is an actor and a poet, wrote my mum. Alison King, who's a director, who was also in Mother Courage in the 70s, which is why I chose the play to do. She played Catron in the Bolton Octagon. She's no longer with us. But my dad wrote my mum a poem every day for 25 years and put it under her pillow. If that's not romance. I know.

It's so romantic, right. So then when she died, he continued to write for her, but when she died, he took a big suitcase of 8,000 poems, around 8,000, sorted through them in my sister's shed, and he picked out a selection, then we put them on a website, which is a lovingverse.com, a loveinverse, yeah, dot com, which, and it was just an incredible, yeah, they're so beautiful,

and it's like a whole journey through their relationship. And I think I've sort of tried to continue, It's so weird how all of the sort of things move into each other's orbit. So I chose Mother Courage because of my mum. My mum was alive when I was approached about this. My mum's been dead 10 years this year. But my mum, Alison King, was alive. And she recommended Mother Courage to me, talked about the character.

Then through the 10 years since I was first approach, I've lost my mum. It's during the time that I was writing Mother Courage. I was writing poetry about losing my mum, but also writing poetry about having miscarriages. I'm so sorry. I did.

I did. And so my publisher Broken Sleep Books who are an incredibly brilliant but also very cool indie poetry publisher. I said,

can we try and schedule the book decade coming out at the same time that Mother Courage is on? And they said yes. So it's come out and it's so much about motherhood. It's so much about loss.

It's about falling in love. It's all of this stuff. So it's been a really busy few months for me. It's a big year. Anna Jordan there, her poetry collection, Decade is out now, and Mother Courage is on at the Globe Theatre in London until the 27th of June.

And that's it from me for now. On Monday's programme, Nula speaks to historian Dr Kate Lister about her new book, Flick, a history of female sexual pleasure stretching all the way back to ancient Mesopotamia, and sex goddesses. Join Nula at 10am on Monday, but for now, for me, enjoy the rest of your

weekend. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Why do some brilliant business ideas come at Cropper? I'm Sean Farrington and in a new series of toast, I'll be looking at five more brands, businesses and wonder products, which offered a lot but didn't stick around, including a budget cinema selling tickets for 20 pence, and the toilet paper we knew from school. I remember worrying about getting paper cuts at an area that you wouldn't wish to be getting a paper cut. Finding out what we can learn from their disappearance.

Toast from BBC Radio 4. Listen first on BBC Sounds. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture and being honoured by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts. and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy,

an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations, which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at Signalaward.com for considerate. action.