Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Going It Alone, Chloé Zhou, Breast screening

Episode Date: January 10, 2026

In our new series Going it Alone we hear from women about their experiences of having a child without a partner. These are women who are having donor conceived children, which is different to single mums who may have split up with the child’s father. Statistics show that more women than ever in the UK are choosing to become solo mums by choice. Lucy tells us her story. Nina Barnsley, Director of the Donor Conception Network and Clare Ettinghausen, a Director at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority join Nuala McGoven to discuss the legal and practical implications. A chemotherapy nurse is so concerned about the rates of breast cancer she has seen in women under 50 that she's started a parliamentary petition to get the age of mammograms reduced to 40 and for them to be annual. Currently women get their first screening between the ages of 50 and 53 and then get screened every 3 years. Anita Rani talks to nurse Gemma Reeves and to Dr Sacha Howell from the Christie Hospital in Manchester about how the breast screening programme could be improved.Ten people have been found guilty of cyber-bullying Brigitte Macron, the wife of French President Emmanuel Macron, by a Paris court, but that is not the end of the lawsuits. Next up, it's the Macrons against the controversial right-wing podcaster Candace Owens in a US civil court. They've accused her of mounting “a campaign of global humiliation”. Nuala hears from Sophie Pedder from The Economist, in Paris, and BBC journalist Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty.Chloé Zhao is only the second woman and first woman of colour to win an Oscar for Best Director. She returns with one of the year’s most anticipated films, Hamnet. Adapted from Maggie O’Farrell’s bestselling novel, it reimagines the lives of Anne Hathaway and William Shakespeare, exploring how the loss of their 11-year-old son Hamnet shaped their marriage and inspired Hamlet. Chloe co-wrote and directed the film and speaks to Anita.The city of Leicester has seen a wave of all-female punk rock bands in the past five years, so how is it reshaping the local music scene? Around 27 all-female bands have grown from a movement founded by Ruth Miller. Called the Unglamorous Music Project, it’s enabled women to learn instruments and form bands together. Ruth died from breast cancer in 2023, but her aim to get more older women into the music industry and onto the stage has materialised. Janet Berry and Alison Dunne are two of the women involved. We hear their music and talk to them about their inspiration.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up, we head to Leicester to meet the city's riot women, women in punk bands, many of whom only picked up instruments later in life. We hear from Oscar-winning director Chloe Zhao, the second woman ever and the first woman of colour to win an Oscar for Best Director, talking about her new film based on Magia Farrell's best-selling novel Hamnet. And as part of our Going It Alone series, we hear why more women are choosing to have a child without a partner through donor conception.

But first, a chemotherapy nurse says she's become deeply worried about the number of younger women being diagnosed with breast cancer. She's launched a parliamentary petition calling for routine mammograms to start at 40 and for screening to happen every year. At the moment, women in the UK are invited for their first mammogram between 50 and 53, and after that, it's every three years. Gemma Reeves has spent eight years working on a chemotherapy ward

and says she's treated women in their early 40s, their 30s, and in some cases women still in their 20s. And she believes earlier and more frequent screening could save lives. Since COVID, we're treating more and more younger patients. with breast cancer. And I think because there's that stigma of, you know, you're too young to have breast cancer, patients, ladies, they're not going to the GP or when they are there being dismissed by the GP, not intentionally, but they're going with breast changes or lumps and the GPs are saying it's hormonal changes or, you know, it's related to your period

or it's a lymph node or it's a cyst and see if it grows, hopefully it will disappear and come back and then in a younger patient breast cancer can be more aggressive so they're then going back to the GPs it's taking them longer to then be diagnosed because the referral should have been done initially and breast cancer doesn't define me by age so the patterns are it's a more increase in younger patients because they're being diagnosed later I know you've seen patients as young as 29 and another who was 40 while pregnant, tell me a bit more about your experience. And I'm intrigued to know what it was

that actually made you want to start this petition. I just think working in oncology for such a long time, I've just noticed of recent that we're treating a lot more younger patients and approaching 40 myself, I've had a couple of mammograms now. And if I hadn't have picked up a lump or something myself, I could have potentially been waiting another 13 years. I've got colleagues that have turned 50 and they haven't even had their first mammogram yet because they haven't been called.

And I just wanted to make a change because we're having all these patients come in that are younger. They've got children like myself, you know, they're still trying to work and then they're having to navigate all of this while still having chemotherapy. And obviously with the side effects, it can make you fatigue, you know, lose your hair. So it affects your identity as well. And I just thought, actually, the breast screening program came out in the 1980s. And like everything, you know, the world moves. And we need to just lower the age because we are seeing younger patients. And there's no rhyme or reason to it.

And I had a patient a couple of years ago. And also, because these are similar age patients to myself and my colleagues, we build up a rapport with them and we get to know them and their family. and then when they finish treatment, that's great, but we don't hear anything from them anymore. We just look after them for a little while and nurture them and then they go. And I had a patient that had breast cancer and she was pregnant. And by the time it was picked up, it was already at a later stage. And sadly, the outcome wasn't very good.

And I just wanted to try and make a change for my friends, family, you know, for you as well. because people are having to wait so much longer and we just need to make a positive change. And I'm just your chemotherapy nurse from Broadstairs trying to implement a change and I can't do it on my own. You're not just at anything, Gemma. I'm going to bring someone else in here. By the way, we're getting lots of reaction from the audience listening.

I'll read some of your messages out in a moment. Figures show that breast cancer has increased in all age ranges. Statistics from Cancer Research UK show that it's increased by 17%. percent amongst 25 to 49-year-olds in the years 93 to 2018. Some medics believe screening should be expanded, but that it could be more targeted. So we can speak now to Dr. Sasha Howell, who was behind the Beacon Ray research trial, which stands for breast cancer risk assessment in younger women. That was set up in Sarah Harding's name.

She was the girls' allows singer who died from breast cancer at the age of 39. Dr. Howell, welcome to Woman's Hour. First of all, do you think breast screening should be expanded to include younger women? And what do you make of Gemma and her petition? First of all, what I make of Gemma is she's got an incredible passion, and I think she's right that I think we should be expanding screening to younger women, but probably not all younger women. Whenever we are thinking about a screening program,

we have to think about the benefits and the harms. The majority of women in their 40s, of course, won't develop breast cancer. And we now have the tools available to predict more accurate. who is more likely to develop press cancer and therefore those of the women that I think we should be screening. Tell us a bit more about the Beacon Ray trial because you were looking at younger women.

What have you found? So we were looking at women age 30 to 39, inviting them just from the GP practice to undergo a risk assessment. That risk assessment involved questionnaire, a low-dose mammogram to look at the breast density and a polygenic risk score, so a genetic analysis as well.

We've completed recruitment of 750 women, 140 are in the increased risk group. And so far, 53 of those women have come through for their first mammogram. One of those women has been identified to have a breast cancer. So it's in the early stages and it's ongoing. What other work is going on in this field? There are a lot of studies going on. Literally, just before Christmas, the Wisdom trial was published from America,

which was looking at risk-adapted screening in younger women and was effectively a positive study. There's the MyPEB study carrying on now and due to reports later this year or possibly 27 in Europe. And again, we were involved with that in Manchester. So large, you know, tens of thousands of women involved in this kind of research that I'm sure the National Screening Committee will be looking out very closely.

Yeah, I mean, so much research in different areas, will they all feed into one another? They will all be assessed by the National Screening Committee. The other thing just to say is that, of course, there's another issue here which is breast density and the screening committee are currently looking at whether or not we should be implementing additional imaging for women with dense breasts. I think that the petition from Gemma is fantastic and it really raises the publicity about this. We can't do one bit of this in isolation.

I think we have to look at the whole screening service and try and change that for the better. Gemma, what would you say to people who argue that screening young women isn't cost-effective? They can say that, but when people are having their mammograms and they're detecting the breast cancers, then it's going to be cost effective because earlier breast cancer's court is cheaper to treat than someone later down the line with more advanced cancer because you're then trying to identify a line of treatment that is going to stabilise it for a longer period of time. And with regards to the dense breast, I totally agree with some mammograms, they can. can't pick up tumours because of the tissue is too dense. However, mammograms on non-dense

breasts can sometimes miss breast cancers. And nobody knows they've got dense breasts until they go from mammogram. And then surely that should be down to the mammographer to then feedback to the reporting referer to say, dense breast identified, please refer for alternative method of screening. I'm going to read out a couple of messages because we've got quite a few coming through. One here saying I was diagnosed after finding a tiny lump, age 42 in August last year. It was a huge shock and the consultant said she was amazed. I even found it. The cancerner said they're seeing women in their 30s and 40s in their droves.

Luckily mine was stage one and hormone positive had not spread and had been removed. I'm now cancer-free and awaiting five days of preventative radiotherapy, then five years of tomoxifene. I've since heard of more and more young women being diagnosed. I feel very lucky. Someone else says, Anita, I was diagnosed at 46. I asked a nurse why mammograms don't start age 40, and she said younger breast tissue is too dense for mammograms to be effective. That's from Carolyn in Yorkshire.

And Sasha, some women worry that radiation from mammograms could pose a risk, particularly if they went annually. What would you say to that? There is a small risk because of the radiation. A kind of back of the envelope calculation would say that if you do annual mammograms for 10 years for women from 40 to 49, if you did that in 3,000 women, you might cause one cancer. So that's a sort of broad brush. So it's a very low risk. But I suppose it's always a case of risk versus benefits.

And therefore we need to make sure that the women attending for the screening are the ones most likely to get the benefit. Yeah. Gemma, you've contacted MPs and the health secretary. What's the response been to your petition so far? Well, only the response on my petition when I reached 10,000 signatures was the opening line was we basically, you know, in a nutshell, don't intend to lower the age. I felt like it was a bit of a copy and pasted response. I contacted Helen Grant and MP from Maidstone who champions this and does.

And so Polly Bigganton are local N.A. And they have written into West Street. And I've emailed him as well, but he's not got back to me. I'm sure you've emailed lots of people. I have. We did ask for an interview with someone from the National Screening Committee, which decides on the program or the Department of Health, but no one was available. Instead, we were sent this statement.

The UK National Screening Committee is reviewing screening for younger women based on the latest evidence and we'll update shortly. We're taking decisive action to tackle breast cancer head-on from launching world-leading AI trials to support analysis of mammograms to driving forward vital research that improves care and saves lives as part of the 10-year health plan. We're also cutting cancer waiting times, diagnosing or ruling out cancer on time for 995,000 extra cases compared to before July 2024. Does that reassure you, Gemma? Not really. I'd like to just meet with Westreeting, and even if they don't lower it to 40, and I've spoken to oncologists who agree, mammograms should maybe be two yearly as opposed to annually.

And Sasha, very quickly, you were nodding when Gemma said, maybe bi-annually, if not annually. Yeah, so the evidence so far is that it's probably better if you're not selecting patients to go for biannual rather than an annual screening, and that's what the US Preventive Task Force, have put into place. Just worth pointing out that there isn't a screening service for increased risk women in their 40s in this country

and that's women who've got a family history. So it's already there for those of increased risk. That's done annually, but that needs to be looked at as well and brought into the screening service where it's currently outside of it and run through family history clinics. That was Dr. Sasha Howell and Gemma Reeves. Now this week, 10 people were found guilty of cyberbullying Bridget Macron,

the wife of French president Emmanuel Macron via Paris court. Most of the defendants were handed suspended prison sentences of up to eight months, but one was jailed immediately for failing to attend court. Some had their social media accounts suspended, and the judge said that eight men and two women had acted with a clear desire to do harm to Brigitte Macron, but that's not the end of the lawsuits. In the US, the Macron's are taking the right-wing commentator Candace Owens to court over a concern. conspiracy theory. Last summer, French president Emmanuel Macron and his wife Brigitte filed a defamation

lawsuit against Owens. The couple have accused her of mounting relentless bullying on a worldwide scale. On Tuesday's program, Nula spoke to BBC journalist Anushka Mutanda Doherty, but began with Sophie Pedder from the economist in Paris about what had happened in court. They were found guilty of posting or in some cases actually we posting comments. suggesting and falsely claiming that she is, in fact, a transgender woman. And that came as a huge relief, as you can imagine, to Brigitte Macron, who has been pursuing various cases against those who have been making these claims. And this is the first court case that has gone her way. And those who have been found guilty, some of them, one of them was given an immediate sentence.

And the others have been either given suspended sentences or in some cases asked to take down the post. So for her, I think for Bridget Macron, this is a big moment. Now, you talk about the relief that Brigitte Macron will have felt from this particular ruling. But is it significant, do you think, in the grand scheme of things? Well, it's interesting that she's decided to take these cases to court in the first place. When you think about it, you know, she is a high profile figure because of the role of her husband. She could have decided to rise above it, as she could have decided not to pursue any of these cases in court and not to give them in a sense the oxygen by doing so. But I think that it's a measure of how distressing it's been for her to have to deal

with this. She's the youngest in a family. She has an older brother called Jean-Michel Tronieu, who is still alive. And the claim is that she is in fact him, her older brother. It's distressing for him. Her older brother is 80 years old. It's distressing for her. It's distressing for her children, one of whom has been on French TV to describe how upsetting it has been for her mother. And it's also been distressing for her own grandchildren. So I think that, you know, there came a point when she decided she had to take these cases to court, that she had to get some of these posts taken down in an attempt to try and stop these claims being circulated. But, you know, as we all know, it's very difficult. But I think this is therefore a big step for her in having

the sort of records set straight and some sense of justice done. And that in a French jurisdiction, but let me bring in Anushka here because this is very much not the end. Abragette has her site set on legal action in the United States. Tell us a little about that big case that is coming. Yeah, someone described it as the preamble to the case in Delaware. We have really an unprecedented civil lawsuit from the Macron's. They are suing the right-wing influencer Candice Owens. And if you don't know who that is, she's quite a difficult figure to define. She rose to prominence in 2016. She's an African-American woman, but she was very, very pro-Trump,

and she knew how to sort of garner attention online. She utilizes different social media platforms, really expertly, a lot of people have said. And now she has her own podcast. And a central series that she's done has been this becoming Brigitte podcast, which we're looking at millions and millions of listeners to each episode. This is about her, quote, independent investigation into Brigitte, claiming that, yes, she transitioned into a woman in her 30s, stole the identity of her brother. There are also multiple other claims in there that there's claims of paedophilia because of the age gap between Emmanuel and Brigitte Macron.

There's claims of worshipping a satanic cult. All of this, the Macron's absolutely deny. But beyond denying it, they have filed a civil lawsuit in Delaware. And the reason that is so shocking to a lot of people is because the civil process in the US is so invasive. They can subpoena Brigitte's medical records. The Emmanuel Macron and Brigitte McCrom will have to fly to Delaware to present evidence. They will be deposed.

Candace can ask them any questions she wants. So it's really an unprecedented thing that we're witnessing for an influencer in the United States of America to be taken to court by the French head of state and the First Lady of France. And, you know, we were hearing there from Sophie of some of the implications for Brigitte within France due to the cyberbullying of that particular case. But why do you think Brigitte is prepared to go to the lens

that she may have to, as you outline in a US court? Yeah, and this is everybody's question. I had this question for her lawyers called Tom Clare, who spoke to him on the Fame Under Fire podcast, and he just made it very clear that it crossed a line. I mean, this is a rumour that has existed in France, an allegation that's existed since 2017. When it got into the hands of Candace Owens,

we're talking about 15 million views of post. And it's not just, you know, whispering here and there. This is central to all of the content she was pumping out across her podcast, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, everywhere. And they said it had just got to a point where Brigitte couldn't go to events without people asking her. She was conscious about what she was wearing, how she was walking. It just became a consistent anxiety,

and it crossed a line. I will say the content that Candace was posting, zoomed in photographs of Brigitte in her swimming costume, saying, we're going to catch you out. And it crossed the line for the Macrons, and they're going to fight it. It must have been also, though, because looking at some of the numbers,

you talk about millions, some even hitting a billion listens, must have been very lucrative or must be very lucrative for Candidso owns. Yeah, I'll say, adverts driving back to promotions. I mean, she was selling me. much with Brigitte's face on it that said Times Man of the Year with Brigitte's face on it.

She was selling that on her website. It's sold out in a day. She has so many streams of income that she's generating from this. TikTok is a platform you can monetize off. Instagram is a platform you can monetize off. She was demonetized on YouTube. She has a, you know, you can go and donate. She consistently asks for donations for her independent journalism, multiple streams of income because of this. Do you understand the public appetite for it in the United States? I understand that the algorithm prioritises content that is incendiary, and that says things that's going to rile people up or confuse people or interest people. I understand that Candice Owens can appropriate the cadence of authority, and she presents herself as an investigative journalist,

and that there is in the United States, but around the world, a lot of distrust in the establishment, in mainstream media, and this is kind of the perfect story that casts out on the truth-telling of major public figures. So I think it tapped into an anxiety had by a lot of people,

but she does it. She's very slick. She really is. It's highly, highly-produced content. Do we know what the potential outcomes could be for whoever is the victor or the loser of this case in the States?

I mean, so for the Macron's, the interesting thing is, for a defamation lawsuit in the United States of America when you are a public figure, you have to prove actual malice. This is the standard. They have to prove that Candace said something. She knew to be false, but presented it as a fact anyway,

or that she recklessly disregarded the fact that it might be false, but kept presenting it as the truth. That is what they have to prove. Actually, none of that concerns them bringing evidence to prove that Brigitte is a biological female or showing the motive of Candice. But it is very clear that they're going to use this court in Delaware as their arena to tell their side of the story in its totality. So I think a victory for the Macron's would be proving in an atmosphere where the world's media present, influences around the world will be there.

Candice will be there. Her fans will be there. Her critics will be there. And everybody will watch this play out in a way that isn't being controlled by Candice. And a win for them in that arena doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, them winning the case. but then presenting their evidence in the way they want to. For Candice, I mean, a win for her would just absolutely cement her within people's minds as being an investigative journalist. There's no doubt about that. But the burden of proof, as you have described, there is somewhat upon the Macron's to issue and to show.

When will this happen, do we know? We don't have a court date yet. I mean, we've still got to have depositions. We're a long way. Discovery. So that's all of, you know, any relevant text, email. letters, conversations that the Macron's have had and Candace has to be taken. So I think we're a bit off a trial.

We're looking at the end of 2026. That's what people are predicting. I want to go back to Sophie. Interesting to hear what's happening in the United States just after the decision that has been in France. Do you think there will be any impact from the states or from Brigitte Macron being in that spotlight? Will there be repercussions in France in any way? Well, I think that it will reinforce their determination to go ahead with this trial. But I think, you know, one doesn't want to underestimate what they've taken on here.

It's a very different situation to take something to court in France and then to go and actually have to face the whole situation in the court in the state of Delaware, where they have filed the lawsuit, to subject themselves to the sort of scrutiny that they're going to have to do in the glare of the world's media and the glare of the sort of, of US-style court proceedings is very, very different and very difficult for them. I don't think they've undertaken this lightly. This is something they've been thinking about for a long time and decided that it's something they have to go ahead and do. So if anything, I would say that the court case outcome in France will have validated, I suspect, their decision to go ahead.

But it's going to be a very difficult situation for both Brigitte and Emmanuel Macron when the court case actually comes through in the US. That was Sophie Pedder from The Economist and BBC journalist Anoushka Mutanda Dawati talking to Nula on Tuesday's programme. Now to Chloe Zhao, the second woman ever and the first woman of colour

to win an Oscar for Best Director. Her acclaimed filmography spanned songs My Brothers Taught Me, Marvel's Eternals and Nomadland, the film that earned her That Coveted Academy Award. She's now back with one of the year's most anticipated releases, Hamlet.

Adapted from Maggio Farrell's best-selling novel. It imagines the lives of Anne Hathaway or Agnes and William Shakespeare, exploring how the devastating loss of their 11-year-old son, Hamnet, reshaped their marriage and inspired one of literature's greatest works Hamlets. The film stars Jesse Buckley and Paul Mescal and is already tips for awards glory with Jesse this week, winning the critic's choice for best actress. Chloe Zhao, who co-wrote and directed the film, joined me a few weeks ago, and I began by asking her about casting Jesse Buckley as Agnes. I read the book and I had a very tonnelled vision of Jesse.

I just saw her. I saw her in that world. I saw her embody Maggie's world. I never had a doubt to be anyone else. It's a very powerful character and role to play because the themes of maternal grief are so strong in the film. There's scenes of childbirth, immense, unimaginable grief that are not sanitized.

Why was it important for you to do that? Because when we sanitize grief, which is something inevitably, no matter how much you try to numb it out, we're all going to feel at some point of our lives. And when we do, when we, when we sanitize that, we sanitize the love. Because you only feel that much grief when you love that deeply. It's literally on the two side of a coin. And we are actually biologically, psychologically, designed in this way that tragedies, losses, and grief connect us.

We're able to feel empathy for each other through the unthinkable difficulties that we go through. And we literally designed this way, and that's why we form community. We help strangers. and no matter how much you disagree with them and you see them grieving for something, you immediately feel them to be more human.

And that, I think, when we try to avoid the grief part, we actually forgot empathy and love. How did you work with Jessie in those scenes? How did you bring her out of it? Like what happens on set when you're in such an intense environment? You know, first of all, having the right ecosystem around her, we carefully pick our cast and crew. And one thing is to start and end the day as if it's a container.

And ritualistically, in the sense that in the morning, it's about taking it slow. It's about, you know, playing music, letting people know that you're allowed to have a profound experience. You're allowed to be silent. You're allowed to feel things. And if you're going to cry, that's also welcomed, everyone. just the actors. And so you kind of create a communal experience. And then you like the community, like, slowly ease into the day.

And sometimes we'll play music, because music help harmonize everyone. And then we sometimes would play music on the first couple takes. Is it true that you and Jesse bonded over a breakup? Tell me more about this story. Not a breakup. That wasn't exactly correct. but it's more like a serious of heartbreak and loss and losing loved ones and and losing a sense of self, I think, when you're in life, everything that you built,

that first 40 years started crumble. And then Jesse caught me at a time when a couple of those things were on top of each other within a day. And I started to feel I was near Central Park. I was just that feeling when you feel like the ground isn't there and there's nothing to hold you. And so, you know, she just happened to text me and say, hey, are you okay? I like one in the morning when I wasn't. You're in the room.

You go, I'm not okay. You know, and so when she sent me that text message, I had a choice in that moment. I can say, yeah, I'm fine. And I am a woman, a person that have always said I'm fine. Yeah. but not that day. And that's why I think

midlife crisis, however you want to call it, the quickening, is not a bad thing because it made you realize you can't do this on your own. And it was probably one of the first time I would say to someone who I don't know that well yet, but just happened to be available in that moment

and going like, actually, I'm not okay. She said, come over right away. And that's how, I mean, it was, when you were a little girl Or just even being in film school, you look at that happening on the television. And I usually watch the Oscars with a pint of ice cream, mango sorbade, it was my choice. I used to watch it in my 20s every year. And you don't think it's so far from your reality because I didn't know anybody and I was an immigrant.

So then one day you wake up. with that nomination and really I mean with things we're on the conversation of community I started again knowing no one and and Sundance Institute film independent FPP you know all these labs welcomed me that was I met Ryan Cougalor there you know I met David Lowry and Mario Heller and a lot of these filmmakers that are supporting each other right now and from the these Institute and then the festivals can Venice Sundance, you know, Tayloride. And these festivals have supported me for all my films.

And when you go to these festivals, that's your community right there. So then in that moment, I go, I guess I was held. Yeah. Yeah. So you feel really nice. Chloe is only the second woman to have won best director, Oscar, but also the first non-white woman. And just to remind everyone,

Chinese immigrants to America as a woman going into the rarefied world of filmmaking to win an Oscar, it's extraordinary. What does it take to do that? Well, so the women's ours. So I do think as women, we value collaboration and the gang community more, you know, more than what I think sometimes the dominant culture are saying, like you've got to do it on your own. And I have always been collaborating not just with my crew and cast, but the places I go into.

Yeah. You know, director sounds very kind of singular. But a captain of a ship will tell you, if you want to live. You need a good crew. And they trust you. They trust is, trust, right? There is a fine line between being in control and preparing everything. and making sure everything is going to produce like we wanted to be.

And then also there's another half of the equation, which is do the work to create the container. So when we actually are in it, then do the work of letting the go and allowing everyone to bring forth what they're bringing forth and trust that sometimes something happens that is so different than what I envisioned. and you have to look at that, go, there is a message there,

and you have to be unsaid, try to decipher what that message is and try to follow that because you fight against it, then there's a chance you lose that extra thing, that mystery that's bigger than you. This is lovely. This is very good, profound life advice. I was going to say to you, what advice would you give to any sort of creative who feels like they're an outsider? How do they get in? That is more, you know, because I wasn't given the main, mainstream opportunity, the first two films.

I just had this, people had asked me during that time, and I always said, you know, if you're trying to get to the top floor of a house, and then they're not letting you up, and you can spend a decade of your life trying to climb one flight up, or you can walk out of the house, and you see like, whoa, there is a whole undiscovered countries out there. But then you have to humble yourself because you're not going to have the infrastructure of the existing house. And then can you talk to your ego and go, well, I'm not going to be able to rise up. You know, I'm not going to have all these convenience. I have to cut down the trees.

I have to get people to help. I have to build a foundation. It's going to take time. And you have to weather some bigger storms. But then when it's unfinished, it's your house. It's your house. It's your house. That was Chloe Zhao and Hamlet is in cinemas now.

There you have it. Sisters, we need to build our own houses. Still to come on the program, the punk women of Leicester. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now this week, we brought you our Going It Alone series, speaking to three women who've chosen to have a child without a partner through donor conception,

which is different to single mums who may have split up with a child's father. more women than ever in the UK are becoming solo mums by choice. Figures from the fertility regulator show that in 2019, just over 3,000 single women chose fertility treatments using donor sperm. By 2022, that had risen to more than 5,000, a 60% increase in just three years. Lucy's son is nearly three, and she's expecting her second in February.

When she began her solo mum journey, part of the plan was to rely on her parents to help, but halfway through her pregnancy, they became seriously ill. Last year when her son was just 18 months old, Lucy lost both her dad and then her mum within six weeks. Our reporter, Joe Morris, went to meet her. So I'll be nearly 41 when I have this baby. That's cool.

That was so cool, wasn't it? It's so funny because I've never seen pictures of the donor. Every now and again he pulls a face that I think is so, like, uniquely him. and I don't recognise it in any of my family and I think I wonder if that's what the donor looks like and in some ways I'd love to know and in other ways I just, it doesn't matter at all you know, he just looks like him

but it will be interesting to see what the new baby looks like and if they look similar and if there's anything, you know, similar traits between them because you're using the same donor again. How much is this the life that you expected for you, Lucy, growing up? Growing up, it's not the life I expected at all, at all, because I was engaged in my 20s. And I think in my head, I did imagine that I would have kids

and wanted to get married and have that whole life. And then I think when I became single, when I was probably just before I was 30, there was a real, like, period of grief of what if that doesn't happen for me? I came to realise later that is not what you have to do whatsoever, and I feel completely confident with that now and that choice. I think at the time it was hard

because I had imagined that that was the route that I'd go down. Because you were engaged. Yeah. Then as I changed, as I got older and spent more time as a single person, I loved being single. And I think that was part of the problem

when I was dating. We're not a problem, but I never actually felt like this person's going to bring something different and better to my life. You've had a huge life change. in the past year you've not only had your first child on your own but you've lost both your parents.

Yeah. How have you navigated that time? It's been probably a bit of a mix because it's been the hardest times and also the best times. And I think that although sometimes I would think, how am I going to do this? How am I actually going to have my son and look after mum and dad? grieve and

but actually there were times when I thought I don't think I can do all of this at the same time but then he just brought so much light to such a horrible situation. Mom and dad were so excited about him being here and then during the time when they were so unwell

he just made everything better because it was a huge distraction for them and my two sisters being around as well as their families and my friends and everything made it all so much easier because it didn't feel like we were doing anything by ourselves, but there was just a lot of juggling to do.

What have you told your son so far about how he was conceived? I've tried to do it in a very age-appropriate way, and I also use quite simple but honest words as well. Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, it's came him home. That's right. This is a book we read about how you were made, isn't it? Yeah, I'm ready baby. Well, this is about a mummy who hasn't got a baby yet.

Oh, no, it's growing in the tummy. It starts to grow in her tummy, but first she needs the egg and the sperm, doesn't she? Yeah. Yeah, and she's got the egg, but she has to get the sperm from a donor. Yeah. Like when we made you? Yeah. And then I'll build on that story, I think, as he gets older and as he develops his

understanding, you know, I'll talk a little bit more about the, um, who the donor was and how, why I chose them and all that kind of thing. But you use the word honest. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Because I, I, I want him to develop confidence in talking about it. I don't want him to feel like his family is not as, I don't know what the words are, acceptable as somebody else's family. I want to always role model the kind of confidence that I want him to have around it. I didn't want there to be like a point in which we started talking about it. So it's just always like an open conversation. Some people Lucy might say your decision to go alone is a selfish decision.

Yeah. What would you say to that? I think that I've got so much love and so much that I know I can. offer my little boy and this little one when they're born and I'm bringing a child into a situation where all they would be given is care and everything that they could ever want and I don't believe that whether a child's got one parent or two parents is what makes a difference in terms of a child's happiness or their ability to thrive I think that what's important is the love and the care and the time that you give them.

Lucy speaking to our reporter Joe Morris there. So why are more women making this decision and what are the ethical, legal and practical implications? Nula spoke to Claire Ettinghausen, a director at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, or HFEA. They're the independent regulator for fertility treatment in the UK. And she spoke to Nina Barnsley,

director of the donor conception network, a charity based in the UK, offering advice, resources and community to help families navigate the process. She started by asking Nina, why does she think more women are taking this step? I think that's a very complicated answer, probably. I think Lucy described it quite eloquently that she was in a relationship and that didn't end up working out, but that's perhaps what she would have preferred. and then actually, you know, time moves on and it can be difficult to find somebody

that you feel that you trust to have a child with, that you have had enough time to form a relationship, that you feel that this is secure. And then the time pressure. So for women, there is a pressure time-wise. She was lucky that she was able to conceive just using sperm donation. So lots of our members have had to use double donation.

So they're also using an egg donor as well as a sperm donor. And that can be another sort of psychological jump. for women. Because you won't have a biological connection with that child. Yeah, exactly. And losing that genetic connection can be more challenging sometimes. So they are the options that people have donor sperm or double donation? Yes, or embryo donation. Less common. But yes, it's normally either sperm donation or double donation. Immediately we can think about many of these challenges that women will be facing if they're thinking about this. Claire, what do you think they should be very aware of? Any child born from donation in the UK, when they turn 18, they can apply to the HFBA

to get identifiable information. They can find out the name and address and date of birth of their donor. So anyone thinking about having donor treatment really needs to think about how might they feel when their child wants to contact that donor or perhaps have a familiar relationship with their donor. and anyone having treatment in a UK licensed clinic will by law be offered counselling to think about the implications of their treatment and also before they consent before they agree to treatment really have a think about what it means to have a child with a donor someone you don't know and someone who may have there may be other donor can see families in the UK who have the same donor I suppose what I'd really emphasise for anyone thinking about having a child alone

with a donor is it's always safer to have donor treatment in a UK licensed clinic. And there are real dangers of going through a private donation route. What are the dangers? So there are some very lovely stories of people finding a donor, you know, on Facebook or an introductory website. And it's all very lovely. And everyone's very happy. I don't want to take it away from any of those people.

But there are also some very horrific stories of people being pressurized to have sex with someone who they don't know. they're being told that these person has health screening, they're being told that this person may have a number of donor-conceived people, donor-conceived children, there's no way of knowing if any of these things are true. So for the health of the women involved, and particularly the health of any babies born, it's always safer to have treatment in a licensed clinic.

And we've also seen some really horrific stories where someone meets someone online to have a donor-conceived child. And the donor goes away, and then a few years later, they go through courts to try and have access to the child, try and claim legal parenthood, access to their medical records or decisions about the child's education. And although it may be cheaper financially to find a private donor in the long term, those of health risks and safety risks that we would really discourage anyone from taking. How much does it cost if you go through the route that you are suggesting,

which would be registered and regulated? So it can cost thousands of pounds to go. through treatment in a licensed clinic. So many single women are having donor insemination, which can be cheaper per cycle, though the success rates can be lower. IVF can cost many thousands of pounds. And people are choosing to have IVF

because the success rates are higher, particularly for single women. Success rates are one of the highest of any category of patient. And also they may end up having embryos created from the same sperm donor that they can then store for future use. Let me come back to you, Nina, because we mentioned there that they have to, by UK law now,

have the donor's name, address and date of birth. But what rights does the donor have? Or does the donor have any obligation to get back in touch you've reached out to? The donor doesn't really make any commitment in terms of their response. They're allowed, I think, to find out how many children, So the year of birth and the sex of any children that are the result of their donation. But they're not able to lead the search or the connection.

And they're also not obliged to respond. But we're hoping that with good counselling donors really understand the responsibility that they're taking on with this role and that they are open to contact in the future and be able to answer questions that children may have. have. We heard Anita Lucy teaching her son about his conception. Really

she was talking about age appropriate but I mean he's only he's still very little so she must have started even younger. Is that the current recommendation? Yeah absolutely. Absolutely and I think she said something very wise which was around starting so that he's always known

it's kind of bedded into who he is so there isn't that sit down moment and I think for single women that they can someone to be surprised at how early the questions come either to their child or from their child so they can be thinking oh

I'll wait and at some point my son my daughter's going to ask a question and then it just comes out of the blue at the age of two or something before they can almost speak and they start talking where's my daddy or you know very interested in daddies and men in stories or in the playground

or whatever and that can really throw women who aren't ready, they're not quite sure, what are they going to say to those questions? And of course, the questions that may come from, you know, work or friends, colleagues, oh, I didn't know you'd got married or, oh, I didn't know you had a boyfriend, oh, who's the lucky dad? And so even when you're pregnant, those questions can start and it can be useful to be a little bit prepared, that it's not, you know, it's understandable that people would ask that sort of question. But of course, it can completely catch you off guard if you're not, if you're not expecting it. What do you counsel in those instances?

We would generally say for people to think about it ahead, you don't have to say, you know, honesty is obviously hugely important, but you don't have to tell everybody everything. And so, yeah, certain people you may not want to share any details with and people can actually become quite nosy. So sometimes it can be helpful. That much we do. Yeah, yeah, to put a bit of a boundary down.

But to be ready, I think that's the point is that you don't quite know when these questions might come, as I said, from your child or from others. And so that's where our organisation in terms of a sense of community, being able to ask people a bit further down the road who've been through some of these experiences are going to be really, really valuable. Lots of messages coming in. Let's run through a few of them. I am also a solo mum by choice as this listener. The donor conception network were amazing in their support. In reference to the question, is it selfish? Yes, as is every pregnancy. No child asks to be born. Lucy is right. is the action with love or not.

That is what is vital. Another one, Natalie, I've always wanted children, but I'm 35, I'm single, I suffer with long-term chronic pain. Income is inconsistent, and at the moment it feels unfeasible to have children on my own at this point. My mum was a single parent,

as well as an incredibly strong woman. But even she found it tough at times. I mean, Claire, there's probably certain people that this is not for. Absolutely. I mean, as you both said, this is a really big decision and something that people will think about for many months or years and financial circumstances play a huge part in any decision

about to have a child in any circumstances. I mean, what I would always say to anyone thinking of going down this route, have a look at the HFEA website, have a look at the Donor Conception Network website, there's a loss of information and support out there for anyone thinking of this route. Go and speak to some clinics, find out about the process and the cost, but ultimately, you know, if someone is in the position financially and, you know, mental and physical health, then it can be a very rewarding decision for them.

Claire Ettinghausen and Nina Barnsley speaking with Noola there. And if you'd like to hear more of Lucy's story that was on Monday's programme, you can listen back on BBC Sounds and to Jay's story on Tuesday and to Emily and her son Kim on Wednesday. Now a story about the real-life riot women of Leicester. The city has seen a way. of all-female punk rock bands in the past five years. So how is this reshaping the local music scene?

Before we find out, let's hear a bit from The Gift by Velvet Crisis. I want to hear the rest of the album. I also want to join the band. While around 27 all-female bands in Leicester have grown from a movement founded by Ruth Miller, known as the loving punk mum. Called the unglomerous music project, it enabled women to learn instruments and form bands together.

Well, Ruth died from breast cancer in 2023, but her aim to get more older women into the music industry and onto stage has materialised. Well, I spoke to two of those women, Alison Dunn and Janet Barry, who we just heard playing drums there. I started by asking Janet, what made I want to take up the drums and punk music? I'm actually normally our bass player, but in our band, I'm with such talented women that we swap instruments all the time. So I drummed on that one. I play bass, I think, sometimes. So at the end of 2021, if I can take people back to that terrible period of COVID, and I was suffering a really bad perimenopause and menopause.

In October 2021, I had a really horrible Me Too incident, and I needed a way to actually deal with it constructively. And I saw an advert on Facebook that a friend had put up by Ruth Miller, saying the unglomerous music project, I'm looking for all women who can form punk bands. You've got 66 days to form bands, learn your instruments, write songs and perform on International Women's Day, 2022. And she'd already booked the venues for the 8th of March. So I turned up on the 2nd of January thinking, well, you know, I play like a little bit of guitar. I can play a few beatful songs.

And I met these amazing women and I was put in a room with four other women. And we formed Velvet Crisis and we have been best friends since then. And it's just been an amazing journey that we've gone on. Wish I'd been in that room. Can I ask, did the purple hair exist before the punk band before Velvet Crisis? Because I'm really in, your purple hair looks fantastic. Oh, thank you very much. Not purple.

I had a blonde streak before. Okay. And I've gone purple for Christmas. Why not? I just thought, exactly, why not? Alison, you joined in 2023. What was going on in your life at the time? Well, I had started an art degree very late in life.

I went to art school. And one of the things I was doing was I was working in a little theatre at a pub. And I went along to a gig that was put on by the unglamorous women. And I was just in this amazing room full of positivity and love and female energy. And these women were doing their first gigs on this stage. And I was just amazed by it. thought I've got to have part of this, so that's why I joined. I think we should hear a bit from your band as well,

sped past 50, heading to 60. And that's you on vocals, Alison. Yes, well, we all three of us, Wissie McFly, Barb Dwey and myself, I'm called Fish in the band. We all did vocals on that song. And it's really about how people say, she's looking good for her age.

And we don't really like that. We just like people to stop it, she's looking good. That would be great. What was it like getting on stage? Terrifying. Really? Absolutely scary. In our band, none of us actually wanted to be that front person

because somebody has to stand up front. None of us wanted to do that. And I'd been a lecturer previously. So I was used to standing up on the stage kind of thing. So I did it for our first gigs. And I was absolutely terrified. And I was trying to stop my knees from knocking. But once you get used to it,

then you work out what your moves are going to be and how are you going to deal with it. And in our band, because we've got such a good vibe going, when things go wrong on stage, they quite often do. We just vibe it through. And I think we are known for being quite chaotic, but also making it fun.

And we laugh at each other. Isn't that punk? Isn't that punk to be chaotic? Are you fans of the music genre punk? Or is it the attitude? It's the attitude, really, isn't it? I mean, boilers are definitely a punk, band. Not all of the bands in them, riotous collective, as it's now known, are punk bands. But they've all

got the punk attitude, which is you get up there, you express yourself, you say what you want to say, and you just get on with it. And people love it. You can see the women in the audience, seeing themselves represented. And I think that's one of the most powerful things. I mean, we did the 66 days to your debut, too. And when we went on International Women's Day, the venue, it was sold out, and there were 300 people. There were a six to be a six-year-old. sea of people. I mean, it's an incredible audience for a first. Who's in the audience? There's all sorts of people, actually. Younger people, older people, family members, friends, men, women, everybody in between. So it's really an inclusive scene and that's what's really

been the effect of the unglomerous and writers collective movement in Leicester, that it's opened up the music scene to a lot more people. And how has it changed the landscape of the music scene in Leicester? Oh, completely. It's brought in people, into venues who wouldn't necessarily have gone into venues. I can say quite strongly that I probably wouldn't have walked into some of the places that we play up if I was on my own previously. But now we can walk in and we've created safe environments. But it's not only the safe environments for those who were going, it's those environments for those who are playing as well. We get comments from bands who've been on the scene and people who've been on the scene for a number of years about

how much energy we're bringing to the scene, how much more collaborative it is. and for those younger bands as well. So our band is famous for bringing along Somozes wherever we go. I mean, woman after my own heart. Exactly. So we're doing all those things to make it a really nice environment to play in, to be at, to promote, and we have lots of fun. Well, what's it done for you personally, Alison?

What's it done for your life? It's the best thing I've ever done, actually. And I do apologise to my children now when I say that. But it's incredible. It's really liberating. really powerful thing to be up there with women and to see women in the audience and to be having that experience and to have people come up to you afterwards and say, that was great, like, surprised and amazed. And so it's about self-esteem, it's built confidence, you know, and it's brought me a

massive number of friends and I've got this incredible community. And you can ask them anything. I mean, whether it's music related or whether you need someone to fix your roof, you've suddenly got 80 women that you can ask these things of. So it's being in an incredible community is one of the best things about it. Alison Dunn and Janet Barry utterly inspiring. That's all from me. You enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm off to form a punk band and on Monday's program we mark 100 years since the Adoption Act and live music from the Aube Sisters. Do join Nula at 10. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, Alex von Tundsenman here with a brand new series of History's heroes, people with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone, including

the little-known story of a famous author caught up in a horrific accident which would require all his courage. Dickens remained in the river, helping the rescue, assisting the wounded. He didn't search out to be heroic. He didn't play on his heroism. Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC. ABC Sounds.