Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour - Gracie Spinks’s parents, Gatekeeping your perfume, Child-free women at work

Episode Date: December 23, 2023

23-year-old Gracie Spinks was killed by a man who she had reported to the police for stalking her. The inquest into her death reported several failures by Derbyshire Police in how her case was handled. Now, her parents, Richard Spinks and Alison Ward, are campaigning for Gracie’s Law, which would ensure better training for police officers around stalking, and the appointment of independent stalking advocates. They tell us about Gracie and the changes they want to be made in her memory.Have you got a signature scent – and would you share where you got it from? Whether you are ‘gatekeeping’ your perfume or keen to spread the word about your favourite scent, smell is one of the most evocative and emotive of our senses. We talk all things fragrance with The Guardian's beauty editor, Sali Hughes, and Experimental Perfume Club’s Roshni Dhanjee - why we want to smell unique, gifting perfume, and why smell is so connected to our emotions and identity.‘There is an expectation that women like me – without children - will pick up the slack so the working mums can have time off with their families’. Those are the words of Sam Walsh who has worked every Boxing Day for the last 20 years. She decided to quit her retail job in October because she resented having to work over the Xmas period. Sam, who runs The Non Mum Network Facebook group and website, says working parents shouldn’t be given priority. Kelly Simmons has recently left the Football Association after 32 years with the organisation. Best known for her time as Director of the Women’s Professional Game, Kelly joins Jessica Creighton to discuss her long career and the future of the Women’s Super League, which she helped to launch and transform.Elle and The Pocket Belles describe themselves as an all-girl retro band. They are a vocal harmony group who have been singing together for more than a decade. They’ll be creating more Christmas cheer for us.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, where we bring you some of the best bits from the week just gone. On the programme today, we hear from the parents of Gracie Spinks, who was stabbed to death by a former colleague who had stalked her. Her parents tell us about their campaign called Gracie's Law. We'll discuss why gatekeeping your perfume is a new trend on TikTok. We'll also hear from the woman who has quit her job in retail after working every Boxing Day for the last 20 years. She doesn't have children and felt she was always having to cover for mums who wanted time off. Obviously we understand you know mums

would like to have the school holidays off particularly like in August you know so we would try and make it as fair as possible but I did always feel like there was this kind of this pressure to to make sure the mums had had priority in a lot of ways. We'll also be hearing from Kelly Simmons a woman who has been pivotal in building the profile of women's football in England and who recently left her job at the FA after more than 30 years. We went from zero revenue to 18 million of central revenue so we were able to start to distribute monies to the clubs. It was a really game-changing time for the women's game

but I felt at the end of that, as I step away now, it needs new leadership, new energy and probably different type of um of skills and how about some music from all-girl retro band and vocal harmony group L and the Pocket Bells but first in June 2021 23 year old Gracie Spinks was stabbed to death by Michael Sellers a former work colleague in the field where she looked after her horse. Sellers' body was discovered shortly afterwards. He had taken his own life. Now, this wasn't a chance attack. Sellers had been Gracie's supervisor at work and they had been friends.

But after ending the friendship, she continued to receive unwanted attention from him. She did everything we are told we are meant to do, reported him to the police and to the company where they both worked, and he lost his job. The police conducted an investigation, which was closed after he was classed as low risk. The inquest concluded last month and the coroner ruled that Gracie had been unlawfully killed. Derbyshire police apologised for what they called significant failures on their part. In a Prevention of Future Deaths report, the coroner stated that the lack of independent stalking advocates in some areas of the country means there is a postcode lottery for victims who report stalking to the police.

Emma Barnett spoke to Gracie's parents, Richard Spinks and Alison Ward, who were campaigning for something called Gracie's Law. Richard told her how the inquest was for them. Well, it was extremely painful, obviously, going there for nearly three weeks every day and having to sit through all of the evidence and seeing the five police officers being asked all the questions and for them to give their reasons as to why, you know, they didn't do the things they should have done. And it was just so emotionally draining and frustrating as well, because obviously we couldn't intercede and get involved with the conversations.

We just had to sit there and listen until we did read out our statements towards the end. But, yeah, a very difficult time. But I'm glad that part of it's over now because we're looking forward to, you know, getting underway with the campaign to try and change things across the country for all police forces. We will come to that, but for you, Alison, do you feel any sense of justice or anything after what's happened with the coroner? Can you feel that? I think, you know, we had a, it was brilliant, Matthew Cooley, the coroner can you feel that um i think you know we had a it was brilliant

matthew cooley the coroner and and the jury were really attentive they were brilliant asked lots of questions and i do i do feel like you know we had a positive outcome with the inquest as like i said mr cooley has done his future prevention of future death report and he isn't just focusing on something locally with like derbyshire police he is he has took this to the home office so we are looking at a national change outcome like you mentioned earlier about being a postcode sort of lottery that you know we're depending where you are in the country as to what service you get with regards to we can only speak about this you know the stalking side of things which is what we've had first-hand with you know witness at but uh yeah so yeah i think we were all pleased as a family with the outcome that, I say, Matthew Cooley gave us.

Yes, and came to. I want to play for our listeners, and I want to be very clear with both of your approval on this, a clip that was made public at that inquest. I know that you feel it's important for people to hear this and where possible at Women's Hour, we want to centre the woman at the heart of these sorts of cases, in this case your daughter. What you're about to hear is Gracie ringing the police to report Michael Sellers a few months before her death. Good evening, Doris Spruce, how can I help? Hiya, I'm just wanting to report something that happened with the supervisor at my work. Okay, what's your surname? Spinks, S-P-I-N-K-S.

And your first name? Gracie. So, basically, me and the supervisor, we were messaging a bit on Messenger and stuff, getting to know each other, and then I called it off because I didn't have no feelings for him. And then he became, like, obsessed with me and wouldn't leave me alone. And basically loads of things happened. And then on the 4th of January, before work, he was sat waiting at my horse's field, like, waiting for me to go there which

scared me a lot and so I drove straight to work and I told work and they've been doing a big massive investigation on him and he got suspended um he got the sack but then now he's trying to appeal it saying that I'm a liar and this other person's a liar and I'm just I don't want anything to happen I'm not I don't want him to happen I'm not I don't want him to be arrested or anything but I just want something to be on file and for me to report this because my work is I've said that things have happened like this in the past and that this is the worst one that's happened and he's said that every every time this has happened at work it's got worse and worse and I'm just worried that that you know the next time it

happens to someone else that you're not gonna you know it could be worse than just following me and what not leaving me alone you know I come out in my kidnap kidnap someone do you know I mean Gracie Spinks speaking to Derbyshire police reporting the man who murdered her a few months later not easy for you to hear that, I imagine, but I know you wanted that to be played and it was played, as I said, at the inquest. Richard, if I could come to you. Your daughter did everything she was meant to do.

What do you think the police didn't do? Well, you know, after she'd reported it to the police, we all thought that everything was done and sorted, done and dusted and she'd reported it to the police you know we all thought that everything was done and sorted done and dusted and she'd be okay and so did she particularly she we never mentioned it again i think the police obviously just didn't investigate or do their job properly there was complete failure right across the board for all the officers involved um in really investigating, going to Grace's employer, going to the field and finding out where the bag, maybe you'll come to that in a bit, where the bag of weapons was found after it was handed in. Lots of things. I mean, they just didn't tick the

boxes. They didn't investigate. Nothing was logged in on the computer system. And a general attitude of apathy, and I can't be bothered bothered and we'll just get this sorted and go home. And that's the attitude that I found came through in all of them. So terribly frustrating to hear all that fresh again in the inquest. So, yeah, complete and utter failure by the police. You just mentioned there about a bag of weapons. A member of the public, Anna White, found a bag containing weapons that belonged to Michael Sellers a month before he murdered Gracie. Derbyshire Police treated the bag as lost property

and Miss White told the BBC she was shocked that the police did nothing. She thinks Gracie would still be here if the police had done the right thing when the bag was handed in. Do you agree i don't know who wants to answer that allison richard yeah yeah absolutely i mean yeah at the inquest the um the police said they thought they were uh theatrical theatrical props or woodwork tools i mean if if you saw what was in the bag there was Viagra there was don't lie there's a brand new hammer there were military knives there was an axe it

was all they were all brand new it was a very very sinister bag and for them just to put it into you know a found property it it were terrible and and it just to be across the road from you know from the horse field where Gracie kept a horse and where she'd already made the complaint to the police that Michael had been waiting for on the 4th of January. Basically if they'd have joined up all the dots and done their job properly they would have connected the bag to the place where Gracie reported him waiting for her at the stables and put two and two together and visited him. And, you know, we'd have all been aware of the danger involved and it wouldn't be low risk at all.

It'd be very high risk. Just to go back to something you said there, which I'm really struck by, Richard, that after Gracie had reported this to the police, you didn't talk more about it. You thought it would be OK, I presume, because she had done that. Absolutely, yeah, because you have every faith in the police. And we thought once she had reported it to them that they'd act on it and they'd spoken to him. And that was the end of it. I don't think we really knew enough about stalking or realised the dangers involved. We certainly do now because we've learned so much about this since.

And as I say say we were all just going about our everyday lives and so was gracie and it was forgotten and then suddenly there was this terrible news on um june the 18th and you know it's just so frustrating that we i'm lost for words sometimes because you know i I think the faith in the police is at a very low ebb at the moment across the country and things need to be stirred up, changes need to be made. Alison, was it something you and Gracie ever spoke about or a similar thing for you that this had, you know,

gone away for all intents and purposes? Yeah, we just, yeah, you know, I was sat with her that evening when the officers came round, when Gracie made a complaint to the officers following that 101 call that you've just listened to. And they left saying that they were going to go and have a word with Michael. Again, in the inquest, it turned out,

I think it was about 11 days after that, that they went to speak to him and they just spoke to him in a car park at Rother Valley Country Park. And looking at it now and how it's come across in the inquest that that actually escalated his level of risk, sort of antagonised him maybe. But certainly he'd gone quiet in grace's life you know or so we thought but again in the inquest we now know that he was driving past the house and

circling around near our house but gracie wasn't aware of that but yeah we just kind of thought she'd you know reported it to the police. It was being dealt with, had been dealt with, and sort of the problem had gone away. He'd lost his job at work, so he wasn't able to be a nuisance to her in the workplace. So it just all went very quiet, and Michael Sellers dropped off our radar, if you know what I mean.

And Gracie being such a confident and go-get person. I mean, she didn't let things bother her. She'd sweep it under the table, any problem, she'd deal with it and move on. She just wanted to get on with her life. And therefore, you know, that was an episode that wasn't very nice for her and us. And it was forgotten and we all carried on with our lives, but we had no idea that this was going on in the background. Alison, what do you remember of your last conversation with your daughter?

It was just sort of a normal Friday morning. We just used to both get up for work at the same sort of time. My daughter was getting up for school, and I always used to take Gracie a cup of tea up to bed when I got up first and you know just our normal conversation sort of thing yeah and we had a brief chat in the kitchen and she rushed out and yeah can't believe it you know and you think last time you know you speak it's terrible. Yeah, I remember the last time I saw her was on the Tuesday and this happened on the Friday.

And I always made a point whenever I've said goodnight to her or goodbye, I'd always kiss her on the forehead and say love you and that kind of thing and that image. And that is, just stay with me. It's a sad moment, but it's just a vision and a memory you have a certain time and place there's no shortage of love in this household we we all tell each other we love each other all the time after you know anybody leaves the house okay bye see you love you and the phone calls love you you know it's uh yeah we're a loved up family it's important it's really important

and thank you thank you for sharing that i what are you trying to do in her name now tell us about gracie's law well i think the thing that came through in the inquest is the lack of training with the police um some of them had just had tiny little bits of training years ago that they'd forgotten about. It wasn't refresh. There was no refresher courses. There wasn't direct stalking training. There wasn't any body in situ to deal with stalking cases that knew all the ins and outs, the rules and regs and the procedures, which is why we want to have in all the police forces across the country

a coordinator or coordinators and advocates to deal with reports from young girls, women and men, particularly young girls. Young girls, you know, they're being stalked now, hundreds of them, I'm sure. And they're just afraid of going to the police because they're not going to be listened to, taken seriously, or the police aren't going to act on it or do anything about it. So that's where we're going with gracie's law we just want changes across the board if one police constabulary can do that then that can act as a model for the others and uh to be fair derbyshire constabulary have made some changes already and uh set on a coordinator and an advocate with a second advocate to follow so in a way you know we've made some changes already but

it's just not enough at the moment we have been approached as well haven't we by derbyshire constabulary to see about maybe going forward with them helping with some sort of training we don't know what capacity yet it's something we're going to speak to them about next year but maybe either do a video of our experience that can be played to officers or for us to actually go in. We don't know yet, but we have said we are prepared to work with them. And we also know that Humberside Police at this moment are actually using Grace's case and Grace's story within their training. So, yeah, it's baby steps at the moment, but we want to make a national change.

The statement from the Deputy Chief Constable, Simon Blatchley, said we've received the preventative of future deaths report from the coroner, which concluded last month following the inquest into the death of Gracie Spinks and was said following the conclusion of the inquest, we fully accept there were significant failings throughout the two incidents relating to Gracie. We will now review the recommendations that have been made and reply within the relevant timeframe. It carries on and concludes with saying,

I also want to reiterate the force's sincere apologies to the family, friends and wider community. Just wanted to give you the chance for you to to tell us really how to how to think of your daughter how to remember your daughter alice and what would you say how to remember her so much yeah just absolutely full of life and i just she packed so much in into 23 years let me tell you but she got so much more that she wanted to do and she was saving for a deposit for a house and a horse was her passion.

She absolutely loved Paddy. She just lived and breathed for a horse. She loved family time, just all being together as a family, family holidays. She'd rather have a family holiday with us and her auntie and her uncle rather than sort of girly holidays with friends, you know, very family orientated. She's just a young girl at the beginning of her adult life with great aspirations and dreams to fulfil

and full of enthusiasm with everything she did. She was so talented, a brilliant singer, piano player, artist, drawer, great with people, everybody loved her that met her and wanted to meet her again. She just had a radiance and a light about her that just shone through and it's just a sad loss to the world, isn't it? Yeah, it's absolutely just ripped our heart out. It's ripped the family to pieces.

We'll never, ever, ever get over this. That was Alison Ward and Richard Spinks. Now, there's nothing quite like a smell or a fragrance to immediately transport you back to a place, a time, or a specific memory of a person. Perhaps you're experiencing that more than usual at the moment because Christmas is peak perfume season. Whilst gifting fragrances is something we've been doing for years, there is this new trend that's growing. And that is perfume gatekeeping.

The act of not sharing what fragrance you're wearing to stop others from copying your favourite scent. I asked Roshni Danji, a fragrance educator and perfumer at Experimental Perfume Club in London, and Sadie Hughes, beauty editor at The Guardian, whether this is a lasting trend. I think there probably is a level of wanting to keep that personal scent to yourself as your readers also said having a fragrance is so personal and so important and has a memory and emotion attached so wanting to preserve that and kind of not let it get diluted by everyone wearing the same thing is probably a factor that does play in a lot of people's lives and can you tell me what perfume you're wearing are you gatekeeping that information I'm wearing one of our own fragrances from EPC it It's called Sandalwood Musk. And to me, it's just a great fragrance to sort of complement the skin and make you feel like, you know, it's a very intimate sort

of fragrance. I think fragrance is really important in terms of representing that facet of your personality. So as you mentioned earlier, it might be about the season it might be about a person or an event it might be about bringing back a memory as well so we have some some of our customers like to wear a fragrance for every city they visit so that it always represents that place for example yeah and so I definitely think it's important. And Sally Roshni mentioned the the need for people to try and feel unique. Is that your experience as well? Yes. I mean, I think my job has to be the opposite of gatekeeping of fragrances because my job is to share why I love them. But certainly,

I think perfume becomes such a very personal and individual part of yourself. I mean, it's how you smell. It's how you present yourself to the world. So I can understand why people don't want to share what they're wearing, because they don't want somebody else to kind of embody their sort of spirit. So I do completely get that. I always think it's a little bit like sharing a baby name. You don't want to tell anyone your baby name in case they take it, and then you have to find a new one. And I think people are a little bit like that with fragrance. And what are you wearing this morning? So I'm wearing a new fragrance by a house called Bibby and it's called Radio Child which I realise is a bit of a strange name but it's a new perfumery and which again is another musky skin scent but

I'll be wearing something much punchier on Christmas Day. Ah, so for you, it depends on the occasion and how you're feeling on the day? I can't remain monogamous to one fragrance. However, every single morning I think about what clothes am I wearing? Where am I going? What do I need to project that day? Am I in a big meeting where I need to really hold my own and therefore have a perfume that can do the same, so something a bit stronger? What do I need to embody? And what's the kind of story I want to tell about myself that day? And I think although obviously my job is to have hundreds and hundreds of perfumes, I think most women have a handful and sort of cycle between them depending on the occasion and what else they're wearing. Is it appropriate with a casual outfit? Are you a bit more dressed up and want a

fragrance to match? All of these things play a part in the decision making. Yeah, they really do kind of make up and help us build our identity sometimes. But Roshni as well, the sense of smell that we have as humans is so evocative. I'm always surprised at how I could just be walking down the street and I catch a whiff of something, even the slightest whiff, and I'm immediately transported back to another time or a memory. And there's actually science behind this, isn't it, as to why our sense of smell is so evocative. That's right. So unlike all your other senses, your sense of smell immediately goes to your limbic system. So where the emotions and memories are processed before going to your cognitive system. So your other senses will go almost the other way around so you'll kind of

think about it more cognitively before you feel it um whereas scent will kind of bring back that more primal part of you so i think it's quite important as well in that sense um i'd agree with sally as well that you know i'm all for fragrance polyamory where you can wear it according to your mood according to the occasion uh you know whether it's work appropriate or whether it's for a night out. And I think that part can also represent those different facets of your own personality as well and can bring that emotion back. So, you know, again, part of the sort of memory and emotional system. If you want to feel more confident you kind of can trick yourself into feeling more confident with the right smell as well for example fragrance polyamory

i am learning new things uh this friday morning have you experienced that roshni where you have smelt something or had a fragrance that's transported you back to another time oh definitely yeah i'd say with many fragrances, with many just single notes as well, for example, whether it's lavender or citronella as well. What do they remind you of? So for the lavender, for me, it's very much a childhood scent. So we always had some growing on the walkway going up to our door and I'd always brush my hands in the lavender

and then sort of smell my hands and feel kind of comforted and feel at home. So it's still to this day when I smell lavender, it gives me that sense of comfort as well. That's a lovely memory. What about yourself, Sally? Have you ever caught a whiff of something and then been transported back?

I mean, the list is endless. I mean, most days that happens to me. But most recently, a few days ago, I got a new fragrance by Dior that's coming out next year. And when I sprayed it on the blotter, I immediately could smell a hot bubble bath in my grandmother's house as a child. It had like a very particular steamy, steamy, hot bubble bath sort of a smell. And I just felt instantly comforted by it and sprayed it on immediately. We want to go where our mind goes if the memory is happy. And that's the joy of fragrance. You can recreate it to a degree. Yeah, it's such a comforting memory. Roshni,

for you, we talk about creating smells and you actually do that. You make, help people make their bespoke fragrances. Tell me about that process. That's right so at experimental perfume club we've got our own branded scents that are still built in a way to experiment layer up together and blend but the other thing that we do is actually teach people to make their own fragrance from scratch so that means that they can learn about the ingredients that go in and really kind of going beyond the the just the look of the bottle or the celebrity who represents it and looking at what's in the bottle.

And, you know, they can select their own ingredients based upon whether they like it or not, whether it's evocative or not, and build their own story around it as well. So that storytelling can then translate into their own personal fragrance, which I think is really, really special and definitely means that nobody else will have that same scent. Yes and that is exactly what some people are saying here they are getting in touch you are listening a message from Instagram here saying yes I make my own perfumes and besides fragrances can smell completely different on different skins so you'll never smell exactly the same as someone else is that true? Absolutely. That's not a a myth is it no absolutely so you can we can all be wearing the same fragrance you and i could be in the same room with the same fragrance and

not have the same scent and that's because your own microbiome the things you eat your hormones will all affect your skin and how the fragrance responds to it so you might have certain notes popping out a little bit more than others on your skin i was um amazed that the messages that were coming in with people saying they've been wearing the same scent for 20 years, for 30 years. That seems to be a growing theme as I'm looking through the messages here. I mean, I think it was fair to say, isn't it,

that buying a perfume back, you know, years previous, previous decades even, it was seen as more of a luxury. Would that be true to say? And perhaps now people are more likely to have multiple fragrances are we seeing a change in trends i definitely have seen that a lot i think fragrance is less of just a luxury and more of a way of representing yourself so in the same way as you might have clothing shoes jewelry and makeup to represent different facets of you. Now you have a fragrance wardrobe as well.

So that sort of might be the ones that you wear for different occasions or summer and winter. I'm sure Sally's seen that as well a lot. Yeah, Sally, what's your experience with that? Yes, certainly it's an extension of how you dress and how you represent yourself with your hair and so on but it's not just that people are more used to having fragrance now is that back in the days that you're talking about many decades ago women weren't to buy perfume for themselves they had to wait for men to purchase it really it wasn't until Mrs S Day Laer pretended that her perfume was a bath oil to enable women to buy it for themselves. The kind of sea changed and with a bit of help from Saint Laurent in the 60s. But overall, it was something that you had to wait for men to give you in this kind of elaborate

bottle as a Valentine gift or a birthday gift. Whereas now, of course, most women buy their own perfume. You go off and browse for yourself. You have a little sniff for yourself. You decide what you like. You ask your girlfriends whether or not they tell you. It's up to them. Yes, of course, lots of us have perfume on our Christmas list. But many, many, many of us would just buy our own perfumes, either in duty free or in a department store,

in a specialist perfumer or online. And so that's been a huge change in perfume culture. And I think it's directly affected how fragrances smell. And speaking of gifting perfumes, as you rightly say, it is coming up to Christmas and I'm sure lots of our listeners will be, if they're anything like me, lastminute.com and thinking, what can I buy someone? Oh, I'll buy them a perfume. Is it a good idea to gift someone a perfume, particularly if you just don't know what they would like? How on earth do you

start thinking about that, Sally? How do you know what would be the right perfume for someone? So you need to know that you need two things. You need to know them very well and you need to kind of know your perfume. So what I would suggest in a gift that I've given an awful lot is booking a redeemable consultation at a specialist perfumer shop so there are lots on the high street pinhaligans joe malone that kind of thing but also lots of independent ones like les senteurs who have multiple brands and you can buy them a consultation and they can go along and just be kind of lost in the world of fragrance and be guided on a journey to find their signature scent and then your consultation will be redeemed against the fragrance and it's a brilliant present for people of all ages I've sent teenagers for those consultations because it's a great introduction to the world of perfumery fascinating discussion

wasn't it I was talking to Sally Hughes and Roshni Danji there. Still to come on the programme, Kelly Simmons, a woman pivotal in the success of the England women's football team, marks her exit from the FA after more than 30 years. And music from all-girl retro band and vocal harmony group, Elle and the Pocket Bells. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour at any time of the day,

if you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now to Sam Walsh, who told us on Tuesday, there is an expectation that women like me without children will pick up the slack so that working mums can have time off with their families. Sam has worked every boxing day for the last 20 years. She decided to quit her retail job in October because she resented having to work over the Christmas period. Sam runs the non-mum network Facebook group and website and says working parents shouldn't be given priority. She told Emma why she was speaking up about this now. Childless people just in general just aren't really represented in society

you know we're quite a sort of silent hidden demographic and we kind of feel like obviously we are very much in the minority we're kind of only really about 18% of the population so overwhelmingly people do become parents in their lifetime so obviously it's understandable that their voice is louder but we are we're still people and we still have our own our own families and our time is we feel is just as important as a parent's time and we just kind of would like to be respected accordingly really. And in your retail job I know you got to a level of manager and that perhaps is relevant in a minute but would you always be able to to get time off when you wanted or did you feel like there was a priority here

I mean I tried to really be um as fair as possible um and I really did bend over backwards for parents wherever I possibly could so you know obviously we understand you know mums would like to have the school holidays off particularly like in August you know so we would try and make it as fair as possible but I did always feel like there was this kind of pressure to make sure the mums had priority in a lot of ways. And even if, you know, they did sort of, we would put them on the voter, sometimes they wouldn't always turn up. So yeah, there was definitely a pressure to give priority to the parents. And you don't think that should be the case? No, I don't think so.

I think everyone's time is equally as valuable. And yeah, we all deserve to have our own time accordingly, really. There are many messages along these lines. There's an anonymous email here which says, for years I tolerated those colleagues who had children, yet when I was caring for my elderly relatives, there was no flexibility. Even the two days I took for my father's funeral

was put down as unpaid leave, while colleagues with children was always covered. There the two days I took for my father's funeral was put down as unpaid leave while colleagues with children was always covered. There's another message here. It's not just childless mums affected in our busy GP practice. Our colleagues with children are never available to deal with emergencies at closing time as they have to get to nursery and school and don't appear to be able to make alternative arrangements as I did when my kids were growing up. And another one, yes, as a childless, not by choice woman, I've spent years watching parents have the odd paid hour here or there for sports days, assemblies and concerts. And I agree that this is the right way to support parents in the

workplace. However, childless and child free, there is a distinction some would draw, have lives too. And our requests are often turned down and not considered as important. I just want fairness in the workplace. But if we raise it, it's seen as bitterness, jealousy or sour grapes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it needs to be a two way street. You know, we're absolutely happy to cover for you. We understand, you know, your children obviously are the most important thing in your life. But it just needs to be a two way street. You know, can you cover for us too? Can you can it can there be that that that, you know, that give and take on both sides? We feel like when we do ask parents to do overtime or to cover for us, they're just very much.

They're often not not willing to or not available to to do that, to make it a two way street. That's kind of that. Yeah, that is often how we how we do feel. And although a lot of mums say, oh, you know, it's only occasionally, it's only occasionally that this happens and it's an emergency. But obviously, if 82% of the population are parents and only 18% aren't, then the odd day for you feels like a huge burden for us because we're carrying, the 18% is carrying the 82% odd day here and there. So it might only be occasionally for each mum, but obviously the cumulative effect of that is it becomes a lot for the childless. And often the childless already feel that they're kind of less than

because that's kind of how you might be made to feel. Or like you say, there is that distinction between childless and childfree. So if you're childless, you didn't decide to become, you didn't decide not to be a parent. It was something that's kind of either happened to you through circumstance, you might not have met the right person.

Or in my case, it was infertility. So I tried, you know, for years to have a child. I had three failed attempts at IVF. I really wanted to be a parent. I'm sorry. Oh, thank you. But if you're child-free, then obviously you've chosen that path. But either way, you know, we just want equality, really.

We just want to be be valued but if you've if you if you are child less you often have to battle with your own sense of low self-esteem you know so then when parents kind of say or imply that your time isn't worth as much it's just that extra kick that you will you know you already feel down about it and I think that's why sometimes we do overcompensate by then doing because people people said to me, you're the manager. Why were you doing that? Well, I wanted to help the mums, you know, and probably I did overcompensate for a long time where I felt like people, I don't want people to think I'm bitter or selfish or it is sour grapes, you know, because it isn't, you know, obviously it's hurt me deeply.

But, you know, I don't want to take it away from anybody else you know but um yeah and actually there was a poll on Mumsnet and someone did say you know am I being unreasonable to think this is just a case of sour grapes and I was actually pleasantly surprised when someone sent me the link to see that it was almost 50 50 and actually even quite a lot of the mums did support me you know and I did go on there and create a profile. Sour Sammy, I called myself because they said I was sour and replied to them. And actually, when you talk to people on an individual level, people are generally much nicer. But obviously there is this kind of herd mentality. And if we are in the minority like that, you just do feel shouted down a lot.

And that's why people don't tend to speak up so much. I mean, it is not something people tend to talk about that much. I do remember I looked it up again this morning and another woman talking about this actually a few years ago and saying you know I'm really putting my head above the parapet here and her conclusion was we do need bosses and employers to take the lead on this and you know you just alluded to the fact being a manager you were overcompensating sometimes at times but it's not something that we do see a lot of leadership on is it? No and this is the thing and also I've found that since the pandemic especially we're running on skeleton staff a lot of the time you know so then if one person does drop out

the whole team really feels it because you're there's not enough of you in the first place so you know that you know if the employers took more responsibility for it and factored in the fact that mums are going to need to be off, you know, there will be emergencies or not just the mums, but, you know, in general, you just had, if there wasn't such a pressure on us in the first place to be running on so few staff, it wouldn't be such a crisis if one person did then let you down. And, you know, this is not to pitch mums versus non-mums you know what I would like to find is a solution Fiona says I'm happy to support parents but it's the entitlement from some of them that really great I've never had paid time off for my hobbies and lifestyle choices yeah absolutely yeah no that's it's true when you sometimes if you said you

wanted to be off for a particular thing it'd be scoffed at you know anything that's not to do with children directly it's kind of you know why would you need to you could do that anytime and that's the thing as well people perceive childless people as having all this time on their hands you know that you've got abundance of time and and yeah you're just so much more free I mean part of it I think is probably there could be a slight resentment towards us for that that they've chosen to have children and then they resent the fact that they haven't got as much free time or, you know, there is a touch of that as well. But also a lot of the women that I worked with,

they were very, very part-time, the mums. So obviously I understand if you're full-time, yes, that's going to be really difficult because you're trying to juggle everything and you're at work full-time. But a lot of the people in retail, the mums, are only working one or two days a week. So the full-timers, which are the childless ones

most of the time, have been there all week and they're really desperate for their day off and then you get to towards that and then the mum lets you down on the one day she was supposed to be there and that's why you know and then the rest of the team kind of says well what are you doing about this you know why are we all absolutely flat out to cover for the mums um and it looks like you're not doing enough to support them and then you go to head office and they say, oh, well, you know, they're protected, nothing we can do. And when it goes on year after year, you don't mind filling in, but it's just that cumulative effect and the burden of it. Well, you're free of it now. You've left your job.

Yes, I have. Is this the reason? It is, yes, it is the reason. You've left a job in retail where you're a manager. Not purely for the mums, not purely to do with mums. You know, it's not all to do with mums. It is the workload and then obviously not being supported by the employer to ensure you've got enough staff to accommodate the mums and whoever else might need

to have time off but yeah it was it was that issue which was a it was a huge part of it for me because I just didn't feel supported when I did go to my employer and say what can I you know how can we fix this how can we resolve this and they would just literally say you know there's nothing we can do their parents they're protected and you know and also I would like to see you know why isn't sort of reproductive status a protected characteristic you know why is there no support or no protection for the childless why is it so heavily weighted towards the parents you know if a childless person was off sick the amount of times that i've you know had to deal with the the mums not being there there would be some kind of investigation there'd be a disciplinary do you want to actually keep going with this as some sort of campaign oh yes yeah i would what's the plan i

mean i would really love to get in be invited in by employers to sit down with their HR departments and talk about this issue. But isn't it all just going to come down to staffing levels? Is that sort of what you're saying here, that you've got enough staff in the system? Yeah, if there was enough staff in the first place, then it wouldn't be such a crisis. But then just supporting the childless people as well that may need to take time off for other things. And the appreciation of how much we do do would be nice. It's just, we're just very much forgotten. That was Sam Walsh talking to Emma there.

And there was a big response from you on this topic. Juliet messaged us to say, in a society we sometimes talk about having children as if it's an individual indulgence. It isn't. The children of today are the doctors, carers, builders and bin men of tomorrow. the doctors, carers, builders and bin men of tomorrow. Without them, nothing would work. People who have children don't just have

them for themselves, they have them for the whole of society. The childless and child free need doctors too. Someone else messaged us to say, what about working dads? As a working mum, I feel the pressure to be able to do my job at a 100% whilst also balancing childcare and child illness. Parents can't control when children are ill. It's an organisational issue, not the fault of working parents. And Andy says this, I'm a man who was told by a parent at work that I shouldn't book holidays in August because I don't have kids. I always try to accommodate, but some parents are not at all flexible. Thank you for all of you who got in touch.

Now, Kelly Simmons may be the biggest name in football that you've never heard of. Kelly joined football's governing body, the Football Association, in 1991 and went on to become the director of the Women's Professional Game. She was instrumental in masterminding the success of one of the biggest women's leagues in the world, the Women's Super League. After 32 years, Kelly has now left the FA, so it's the end of an era, not just for Kelly, but for women's football too, as the FA hands over control of the Women's Super League to an independent organisation,

a league that she often referred to as her baby. Kelly joined me in the studio on Wednesday, her first broadcast interview since stepping away from the FA, and she told me about what attitudes were like towards women playing football when she first joined the FA over 30 years ago. Well, it just wasn't seen really. I mean, I went into the FA, the FA wasn't even in control of women's football. It was sitting in a very poorly funded organisation outside of the FA. And culturally, it felt like an organisation of men's football. And it certainly didn't feel like that when I left. There's a huge sense of pride and a huge commitment to the women's game.

But, yeah, I remember doing the first count. There was an England senior team, an amateur league and 80 girls teams. So it was, you know, it was a great time to be involved in some ways because it was almost a blank piece of paper. But very little. Compared to now? Well, women, you know, we're coming off the back of a ban. Now over three million women and girls play football in this country. It's a huge, huge participation sport.

But of course, you know, women and girls were blocked off for years from playing our national sport. And I think that's one of the things that really drove me. I wasn't allowed to play as a girl. I felt, you know, it was a real injustice. I was sort of put in, you know, that narrow box of what girls should do. And I thought, no, I'm not having any of that. So I played football in the park, played football with my brother, practiced my keepy-uppies and then, you know, got the chance. As soon as I went to university, I literally ran to join the women's football team and sort of went from there so yeah I wasn't having any of those social norms. We're talking about your influence right now Kelly and how you've managed to transform the game from being largely ignored to what we saw at the

Emirates just a couple of weekends ago where I was there 59,000 football fans there for a women's football match inside Arsenal Stadium. Did you ever envisage it would become that big? How on earth have you put the practices and processes in place to achieve that? I think I did. I think maybe not as quickly. I think one of the reasons I wanted to take the director of the women's professional game job in 2018 was I really felt that of women's sports that could finally break through into the mainstream in terms of regular week-on-week coverage and profile women's football could be the one that that did it and helped sort of drive it through for other women's sports so I did feel

that and I still think now there's still massive growth to come it was hugely exciting the last five years being involved in driving the WSL and putting those foundations in place for it to ultimately come out the FA and be a standalone company in its own right. But I still think there's huge growth. I do believe in my lifetime that women's football will be the second biggest sport in the world behind men's football. And that means there's still massive growth in audiences, in players, in profile. We look at the Women's World Cup, a couple of billion people watching the Women's World Cup. All the media rights sold across the world,

sponsorship properties sold across the world, increasingly women's leagues becoming professional, brands getting on board, huge fans starting to come to games. When you think about the investment and effort that it's had, it's only quite recently that it's had. It's only quite recently that it started to have the sort of money invested that would help it

to become the best it can be and set it on that journey. So it's still got, you know, it's come a huge, huge way, you know, quickly, but it's still got massive growth to come. So the question then becomes, Kelly,

with the game at such a pivotal point, with the game being so exciting, after 32 years at the FA, why have you left? It felt the right time because I think, you know, I'm a developer by background and I loved putting the building blocks in place for the WSL with a fantastic, fantastic team of people in the women's professional game and the clubs and our stakeholders and uh you know obviously the you know the bbc and sky deal bringing barclays on board as title partner we went from zero revenue to 18 million of central revenue so we would start to distribute monies to the clubs it was a really sort of game-changing time for the women's game but i felt at the end of that as i as I step away now it needs new leadership new energy and probably different type of skills and they've got a wonderful chief exec appointment in Nikki Doucette and you know obviously her job now is to try and really drive the commercial development

of that league and ultimately make it sustainable so it doesn't rely on men's football club money and it can be sort of protected and invested in. For those that don't know on men's football club money and it can be protected and invested in. For those that don't know, the Women's Super League and the league underneath it, the championship, are being handed over to a new company away from the FA. That new company is called NUCO. It will be a club owned organisation and that will take over from next season with Nicky Doucette, as you say, leading things in that regard. What steps do you think NUCO needs to take now to continue on this path of success? Yeah, I think, well, first of all, I'm sure, you know, Nikki will be putting her leadership team together. So it's about making sure that the league centrally is resourced to drive that strategy and that ambition that they've set out, that Dawn Airey talked about, who's a chair a brilliant chair of the Women's Super League and Championship,

about an ambition to be the first billion pound women's league in the next 10 years. So that's going to require resourcing internally. And I've seen that. Is that realistic? I think it can be. I think it can be. Yeah, I think it's a stretched target.

But I absolutely do. When you look at sort of what's happening across the globe in terms of women's football and women's sport, the next thing is identifying what monies need to be invested ahead of that sort of revenue growth that will come. So that means investment in the product, investment in marketing to make sure that everything's in place to maximise that growth potential. So, yeah, I think lots to do, obviously. And then I really think it's important photo going viral because every member of the team was white. So it was criticised for their lack of diversity. When you compare that to the men's, it's very different in the women's game.

The men's seems far more diverse. There's many more people from ethnic minorities coming into the game, playing at the top level, both at the youth ages, but also at the elite level for England men as well. It's not the same in the women's game. You've worked in the game for a long time. Why is that? What's gone wrong? I think lack of investment in academies. What's happened is as the game is professionalised and the money's sort of been drawn into the first team environment

for clubs to try and survive and compete in the WSL and attract world-class talent to do that. There's been sort of less focus and less investment on academies. That's tended to leave clubs in a situation where their academies have been at the men's training ground or at the boys' academy in sort of leafier rural areas, so the talent pathway's not been as accessible. So the population in those areas isn't as diverse.

It's not as diverse, it not been as accessible. So the population in those areas isn't as diverse. It's not as diverse. It's not as accessible. What's happened is that since then, the FA has brought in emerging talent centres right across the country. So it's more accessible. It's in those big population areas in the cities, feeding the academies. And already we're seeing a more diverse youth pathway.

And we've seen that with the England Youth League. So you're seeing results? Much, much more diverse. Absolutely, yes. And of course, that needs to continue. I mean, the men's academies is funded to hundreds of millions of pounds. And the budget for the women's academies is three million. And therein sort of lies a huge difference. And one of the areas still contentious in the world of football is sexism.

Now, earlier this month, I'm sure you would have seen former footballer Joey Barton spoke out about women's growing influence in football punditry especially saying women and I quote should not be talking with any kind of authority about men's football. Then of course there was also Luis Rubiales at the Women's World Cup who was then head of the Spanish FA. He kissed player Jenny Hermoso on the lips, which she says wasn't consensual. He's since been given a three-year ban from football by FIFA. But has the women's game come forward in terms of sexism? Is it less of an issue than it was when things like this are still happening?

I think it does show, doesn't it, how deep-rooted misogyny there is still out there. I'm kind of loathe almost to give Joey Barton more oxygen, because he's clearly sort of seeking attention. And I think those who've got a shred of decency and inclusive values, hopefully will be not following, not engaging and certainly not involved in podcasts and other things that he's pushing. I think I'd like to see more male allies step up and challenge in this space. I think that's, I certainly thought that during

the Ruby Isles. So football doesn't have enough? I don't think so. I think I'd like to see it more. I think there's some brilliant work. I'm a really proud member of Women in Football, So football doesn't have enough as it stands? to join women in football and if you're a male ally absolutely join women in football and let's be part of the change and women make a fantastic contribution to our national sport for me there's no place for some of those comments now another growing area of contention kelly that i'd really like to get your take on is recently you might have seen a grassroots transgender player in yorkshire quit the game after some rival teams refused to play against her. Now, of course, under the FA rules, players can play in teams of their affirmed gender. Now, that is the gender they identify as rather than their birth sex, I should say. And that's only if their blood testosterone levels are within the normal female range. Conservative MPs have called for this to change and say existing rules undermined fairness in the women's game. From your point of view, is this something that women's football will continuously have to grapple with? We've seen other sports go through

it, cycling, athletics. Is this going to become a growing issue for women's football as well? I think certainly is something that women's football is grappling with. And I know that when I was stepping away from the FA that they were currently in the midst of reviewing their policy in this area and trying to find that right balance between inclusion and fairness and safety. And it's very much got an inclusion lens on that policy at the moment to try and make sure football

is for everybody and accessible to all but definitely one I think that's that's under review and be interesting to see what what comes out because they've been looking at that policy over the last few months so sort of wait and see see where they've got to on that one and just finally Kelly now that you've left the FA you don't have have to be so, I suppose, secretive about which team you support, right? You can actually talk about it in public now. Is that right? I guess so. You've kept it a secret for like three decades, Kelly.

Well, apart from the odd Insta picture with my scarf on. Yes. So who is it? I followed my mum. So she's a big Liverpool fan. So Liverpool's my team. But honestly, I can say when I was watching the WSL, I just wanted it to be a great competition. And for big attendances and big audiences, I never really thought about any loyalty on that side. But I suppose growing up, yeah, Liverpool fan.

So an exclusive there for you. What a pleasure it was to speak to Kelly Simmons and hear more about her remarkable career. Now, shall we finish with some music? All-girl retro band and vocal harmony group Elle and the Pocket Bells joined me in the studio yesterday. And what a pleasure it was. That was Elle and the Pocket Bells. Their debut album is out on the 16th of February.

Coming up on Woman's Hour on Christmas Day, Anita Rani will be taking a seasonal deep dive into the world of Brussels sprouts. Yes, you heard me correctly, everything you've ever wanted to know and more besides. Find out why women in particular should be eating more of these mini cabbages, why they give us wind and how they're not actually from Brussels. That's with Anita on Monday, just after 10 o'clock. Have a brilliant weekend. See you soon. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning

everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.