Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Grease stars Olivia Moore & Jocasta Almgill, Female Bouncers & the Power of Silence

Episode Date: June 4, 2022

As the nation celebrates the Queen’s 70 year reign this jubilee weekend we ask what impact will the changes to primogeniture mean for future British monarchs? We hear from five historians, Alison Weir, Lady Antonia Fraser, Jung Chang, Tracey Borman and Kate Williams.Author Julie Myerson’s new book is Nonfiction, a novel about a couple struggling with a daughter who is addicted to heroin. It's partly inspired by the experience of her own son's drug addiction. Julie joins Andrea Catherwood to talk about addiction, maternal love and the ethics of novel writing.Grease IS the word! We meet actors Olivia Moore and Jocasta Almgill, who are taking on the roles of Sandy and Rizzo in a new production of one of the best-loved musicals of all time.The Women’s Prize for Fiction has launched a campaign to encourage more men to read novels by women. Research, conducted for Mary Ann Sieghart’s The Authority Gap, found that of the top 10 bestselling female fiction authors, including Austen, Atwood and Agatha Christie, only 19% of their readers are men. We hear from Kate Mosse a best-selling novelist, playwright and founder director of the Women’s Prize for Fiction.What’s it like to be a female bouncer? With the industry saying staff shortages are impacting their ability to keep people safe, they are making plans to hire more women. Michael Kill is CEO of the Night Time Industries Association and Carla Leigh is a Door Supervisor and is setting up her own security business focusing on getting women in to the industry.Tahmima Anam is an anthropologist and a novelist. She's a big fan of silence and believes it can be harnessed to challenge sexism and expose bad behaviour.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Karen DalzielPHOTO CREDIT: Manuel Harlan

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. On today's programme, the author Julie Myerson on her latest novel, looking at the issue of maternal love in the face of teenage addiction. We have stars of the latest theatre version of the musical Grease. They perform and we discuss the power of silence. I would hold silence instead of trying to fill a silence. When there was, let's say, a sexist joke,

I didn't feel like I had to laugh and I didn't feel like I had to protest. I could just be completely silent and maybe the other person would hear what they were actually saying. And have you ever considered being a bouncer or door supervisor, as they're actually called? We look at why the world of door supervisors need women like you. Women are happy that they've got me so that they can come to me. I'm like their second eyes because I see a lot of people,

they may be getting hit on and, you know, they're not feeling it. They may be a bit drunk. They're very vulnerable. But first, the Queen is celebrating 70 years on the throne this Jubilee weekend. According to our reckoning, she's only the 16th platinum monarch in history to reach this milestone and is the first woman to do so. Yesterday, Anita Rani looked at some of the other great queens in history. But when Queen Elizabeth II came to the throne in 1952, she did so only because of the lack of a male heir. Had there been one, she'd have been passed over,

as had happened throughout history. Male primogeniture was abolished for the British monarchy in 2011. That was under reform by the coalition government, which now means firstborn daughters will assume the throne. But what is the impact of that now on the future of the monarchy? Anita spoke to five historians, Alison Weir, Lady Antonia Fraser, Yung Chang, Tracy Borman and Kate Williams. She asked Kate about the misogyny Elizabeth II must have

faced in her own reign. It's interesting, isn't it? Because we've looked at a lot of women who suffered great misogyny and you wouldn't think it of Elizabeth II, but it's true because when she came to the throne in 52, it was a time when working women were not accepted. Only about 1% of women went to university. And particularly if you're a working woman, you didn't have children, you weren't a mother. Someone like Hilda Hard Harding who became the first bank manager in 1955 was a single lady and Elizabeth confounded people because she was a woman she was young she had children so people like such as Churchill he was saying she's just a child and there was this very subtle sexism towards her it really was a time when women were supposed to be in the home So she had her own struggles to prove that a woman could do the job.

And she even had to battle to keep the name Windsor because she was expected to take her husband's name as the new royal house. So it was going to be the House of Mountbatten or the House of Edinburgh after Prince Philip's ducal title. And she actually went with Windsor and she was really criticised for that at the time. Tracey, is her greatest legacy the fact that she has secured this change? I do think it is. I mean, she's been the most remarkably dutiful queen. I think that's the main characteristic of her reign. But this is a huge change in the history of the monarchy.

For the first time in more than a thousand years, there is equality in the royal succession. So hurrah for that. Young, what unique traits has the Queen displayed separate to the historical queens we've been talking about? Well, I think to me, I mean, she was extremely dutiful. I think most people, I mean, by consensus, probably respect her. I think that she did a great or she has done or she is doing a great service to Britain, British society and the world. And so I think I have, you know, I can't tell you how great respect I have for her.

And she's had to adapt because of the changes she's seen and the way the culture and the country and so much. I think I went up to Oxford in 1950 and I was there when King George VI died. I think the monarchy was not only not held in great respect, but there was no particular reason why it should have been. Because the Duke of Windsor was still very much in people's memories and that was whichever way, whatever side you took, you know, that was a very difficult episode. On the one hand, a man is flung off the throne for marrying the woman he loves.

On the other hand, a man wants to marry a twice-divorced woman, you know, and so on. But the Queen brought, already married, to a very good-looking man. We were all mad about the different bedbreds in those days. Wow, have you seen the different... He was a hottie. Prince Philip, as he was. And she brought something which shook a bit

because Princess Margaret was much more like the old tradition of princesses. I mean, she was great fun, clever, musical, but wild, you know. She didn't see why she should trim her conduct to anyone, nor did she. But the queen somehow manufactured the kind of... I say manufactured because she constructed a kind of ideal queen which everybody had wanted but didn't know they wanted. We certainly haven't had.

And for that and all the other things, I respect her so much. Yes, absolutely. Alison, do you think she's been influenced by any queens in history? Probably Queen Victoria more than anyone because we're talking about a different era. If you go back to Elizabeth, you go back to Eleanor. I noticed in the Queen's Declaration of Service which she renewed her declaration this year on the occasion of her birthday, she signed it,

Your Servant, Elizabeth R. She sees herself as the servant of her people. I can't quite imagine Elizabeth I. She said, Your Sovereign Mistress. And Eleanor of Aquitaine. It was about power. Yeah. And so the queens don't have that kind of power nowadays. And so duty, as you said, is the watchword for the queen. And she herself said at her accession, there was lots of talk of a second Elizabethan age. And she spoke out against that. She said, I don't feel I've got anything in common with my Tudor ancestor,

who was a despot and never left these shores. So she very quickly dismissed any comparisons between the two Elizabeths. At the moment, we've got three men next in line. But will the primogeniture abolition make a difference before the next queen, I wonder? Why have we got three men, surely? Princess Charlotte comes in. Her older brother first. So it's Charles, William and then George. men, surely. Princess Charlotte comes in. Doesn't... Her older brother first. Charles William.

Charles William and then George. Oh, sorry. Yes. So if George's first child is a girl... Oh, it would be then... It would be her. Unless, of course, if George were to abdicate, it would go to Charlotte, not to Louis, as it would have done before.

So that's the difference. But we're very unlikely to see another queen in our lifetimes. And, of course, it's fascinating because the queen is at present number three in terms of longest reigning monarchs of sovereign states, not far off beating number two. But then it's Louis XIV of France, and he did come to the throne as a child. So he's got a head start. Has anyone met the queen?

Yes, absolutely. And what was your impression? I can see why much is written about her wit. I think she's very humorous, very, very sharp and clever. I was very impressed. I thought she was charming. Yes, absolutely. I saw her, she was distributing decorations.

She was really quite old, not so long ago. And I was mentally preparing myself for a sort of crone-type queen. And in came the strongest- looking woman. I find it absolutely extraordinary even now looking at pictures of her you know when she declares she has indispositions extraordinary strength which I can't help thinking that the

inner woman has produced this physical strength I know it's not logical I agree, I agree, it's incredible isn't it and it's interesting that as Tracy was saying, some of the best monarchs didn't know they were going to be monarchs and she had no idea. They thought they were just going to marry her off into an aristocratic marriage.

That's what she was expecting and yet a new world at ten her uncle abdicated and she was the heir to the throne. Is the dialogue with Princess Margaret true? Who's the royal expert? You are, all of you. According to the governess, that the Queen's Princess Margaret said, does that mean you're going

to be Queen now? And Princess Margaret said, poor you. That's what the governess who was there, that's what she said in her memoirs, Crawford. That's where it comes from. We accept it. Go on, Kate. I think the Queen comes from a generation that's very stoical.

They went through the war. Look how she's weathered Prince Philip's death. Many people at her age losing a husband, that can be a mongrel blow, basically. It could have sent her into retirement, but no, she's bounced back and she's marvellous. I think she has such respect for her. Absolutely.

All the troubles in the family. Yes. It's incredible how much she has to deal with. It's an interesting comparison with Victoria, who, when Albert died, went into retirement for more than a decade. The Queen was back at work after four days after Philip's death. For many people, the Queen is the monarchy. And I'm interested to see what will happen in the future,

because really I think historians of the future in 100, 200 years' time might look back on this period as the high watermark of monarchy in terms of its impact and influence and how much the Queen is discussed all over the world. I was just in France, and all the papers, there was pictures of the Queen on the front. And I don't know if things will be the same. And of course, many countries will no longer have the Queen of Head of State.

We're expecting a lot of change in that respect. The monarchy, I think, will no longer be like it was in the Queen. This woman who, when you think about it, born not long after the end of World War I, born in 1926, the age of the flapper, lived through almost the entirety of the 20th century. That was Adita talking to Kate Williams, Tracy Borman, Yong Chang, Lady Antonia Fraser and Alison Weir and you can hear all of yesterday's programme on BBC Sounds. Author of 10 novels and three works of non-fiction, Julie Morrison's new book is called Non-Fiction. It's a novel about a couple struggling with the daughter who is addicted to heroin. It's not the first time

Julie has written about teenage drug addiction. In 2009, she published The Lost Child, which started out as a book about a 19th century watercolourist, but ended up including descriptions of her eldest son's addiction to skunk and the decision she and her husband took to kick him out of the family home when he was 17. There was uproar in the media and Julie was accused, among other things, of betraying motherhood. She told Andrea Catherwood what made her want to revisit the subject of teenage drug addiction. When I'm writing any of my novels, actually, I don't know what they're about. I don't really do any research or make any notes. I concentrate on a space in my own head that sort of is quite, it's different from the space I'm in on an everyday basis. And I sort of listen and images come. And if an image seems to work,

I go with it and I write it. And if it's not good, I get rid of it. And basically, it took me about five years to write this novel. I was struggling with various health issues as well. And my energy was quite low a lot of the time. And it took a very long time to discover that what I was actually writing, yes, is a book that was probably going to make people talk about the lost child. And I think I'm all right with that, actually. Well, I know I am now. The narrator, the mother in this novel, feels terribly guilty about what happened to her daughter. And I think many of us as parents, no matter what struggles our children have or haven't had,

just we feel guilty sometimes. It's sometimes the default position, isn't it? She beats herself up though, you know, and she recounts moments where she feels that she could have done so much better. Do you think that that's particularly common for parents of addicts? Yes, I do. I mean, obviously, I would say I think it's common for parents of everyone all the time, regardless of what's going on. But I think there's plenty been written about addiction better probably than I could write it. What I think I was trying to write about was the fact that although, I mean, first of all, no one who hasn't been through it

understands and why should they? It's the only situation when as a parent, you see your child basically ill, afraid, dirty, unloved, or it's an awful thing seeing your child addicted to something almost possessed by something different. And you aren't allowed, whereas if they had a serious illness, you'd be allowed to help them, comfort them. You have to actually sort of do the opposite. And I think although all the self-help books, and my God, we consulted a lot of them, and the helpful people and the fam and non places that you go to,

they all tell you it's not your fault. And I think on a certain level, it isn't. Addiction happens to everybody. I mean, it happens to anybody, is what I'm trying to say. I don't think as a parent, from the moment you have a baby until either one or other of you dies, they are your responsibility. And I really do think that actually, regardless of how old the child or the parent is, and yes, you continue to blame yourself at some very deep level for anything bad that happens to them. And yet you mentioned this feeling of helplessness.

At one point, the narrator in the book says the tragedy of this particular illness is the only way to help is to do nothing. And actually, the parents in the book at one point, which is, you know, it's searingly honest and quite startling, I think, to read. They look at their daughter in hospital and she's survived, but she's still unconscious. And they kind of look at each other and they say, well, now we know she's OK. There is nothing we can do. And they leave her there. Yes. What is that? Can you explain a bit more about that idea that you really can't help and at some point you've just got to walk away?

Well, people say to you with an addict, they'll do things for two reasons, to get attention and to punish you and also to get more drugs. Very often and anybody who has a loved one who's an addict knows this and probably the rest of the world maybe don't, they will cause a crisis, something quite dangerous, you know, it may be taking something

that then puts them in hospital where they hope someone will then give them the drug that they want and sometimes it is given to them I think the really hard thing for a parent the more you educate yourself but and I'm not I ought to add I'm not saying specifically that all this happened in our family but I certainly know about it and some of it did the more you educate yourself the more you know that and I did try to write this in the book actually you know your child's in hospital of course you want to rush straight there you say to write this in the book, actually, you know, your child's in hospital, of course, you want to rush straight there. You say to each other, we mustn't rush straight there,

because if we do that, she'll know she can do it again and get the same result. But you do rush straight there. Then having established that she's still alive, because to be honest, you know, your standards go right down as the parent of an addict, just being alive is enough, actually. You then know that if you stay there, they'll tell you they need either money or heroin. So you leave. And yeah, I was trying to write about that. And it's an ugly thing to write about. It made me quite uncomfortable even trying to write about it.

I'm sure it did to have to go back and revisit all of that. It sounds like you really were incredibly truthful in this searingly sometimes unsparingly. It's only my truth. I should also say I'm only writing the mother's story. I never try and step inside the head of the child and talk about that because I don't think I could and I actually don't think it would make a good novel either.

So I'm only interested in the mother's story. And in this mother's story, there are other dysfunctional relationships and particularly her relationship with her own mum. Her own mother is, well, I don't know how else to put it. She's a bully. She's very cruel. In fact, there's a scene where the mum's so upset

about her daughter, she meets her mother, the grandmother, in a cafe and, you know, she's absolutely distraught. And it turns out after her crying and telling her mother this for a long time, that her own daughter has actually been staying in the grandmother's house the whole time. I just wonder how much of this is based on your relationship with your mother? My God, it's kind of almost surreal for me

hearing someone like you describe that moment because that actually really happened. Much of the stuff in this book obviously didn't happen. Most of it is fiction. My relationship with my mother, I didn't really have to make any of it up. And the only reason I've been able to publish this is she actually died very sadly while I was writing it. She died suddenly and sadly, and I miss her and I regret that she's gone. But I wouldn't have been allowed to write those incidents. I wouldn't have felt able to.

At the same time, I would say this isn't a fair portrait of my mother, because if I was writing a book about my mother, there would be much more in there. She was actually a wonderful person. She inspired me as a child. She's why I'm a writer, actually, and I thanked her for that and she knew that. But I had a very difficult relationship with her. Yes, I don't like saying she was a bully.

She certainly bullied me, and I had to struggle out from under that. And I think I'm still, although I've written about it, I'm still processing that really. I feel very, very sad for her. Very sorry for her, actually. There's also a version of this story where the relationship with the mother does really transform. I should say that there are sort of alternative versions in the book. There are sliding doors moments in the book. And that's one of them. Why did you write that? Well, all the alternative versions, especially with the daughter, are there because actually, I was trying to evoke the mindset of someone who's dealing with all of this. And you're constantly, even when things are going well, you're thinking, oh, but this could happen, you live with a range of possibilities all the time, good and bad. And I would say that's a fairly exhausting way to live. I found it so. With the mother, funnily enough, yes, there's an episode where she goes to hospital and she suddenly has a good relationship with her mother. And strangely, that also is true. I mean, I don't think I made anything up about my mother in this book. I'm pretty sure I didn't. My mother had a small stroke a few years ago and it did something to

her. She got her sense of humour back. She lost her anger. It lasted almost two years. It was blissful. And during that period, it was like I had a mother again. I've tried to write about it here. It made me understand what normal people with normal mothers and parents who support them, because my father wasn't any good either, what it feels like. And it's an amazing feeling. It gives you a certain confidence, which, you know, I could do with having, actually. Thinking about what happened in 2009,

you published this novel, The Lost Child, and you did, you know, can you just explain to us, I suppose, what happened next? Sorry, I should say it's an easy mistake to make, but it wasn't a novel. It was a non-fiction. Well, sorry, you're a non-fiction book, sorry. Obviously, that's kind of important in a way.

Absolutely. I mean, in some ways it makes it worse, but it was very difficult. People ask me, do I regret writing it? I don't. I stand by almost every word. There are actually a couple of things that I would take out now. I think we were still in the middle of dealing with a trauma and our son was still in a very difficult place.

And what we hadn't expected was that it would be leaked before it was available for other people to read. I think I was ready for it to be criticised by people who read it and indeed when it was reviewed, the reviews were kind of mixed, but fair, I would say. But they didn't, they wrote about the book they hadn't read. You also, it also came out at the time that you were the anonymous author of Living With Teenagers,

which was a column in The Guardian that had been running for a few years by that stage. I think it finished in 2008. Do you regret doing that? I mean, you were writing about your own family at the time. And of course, you were pilloried for doing that, for using private information and kind of making a living. I understand why I got into trouble for it. It was actually, ironically, it was much more fictional than people realised. I was quite careful.

You know, the eldest character was actually almost entirely fictional because I couldn't write about what was happening with our son at the time. I wrote about that in The Lost Child. But I think it was difficult. It was only supposed to be about three columns. We didn't tell our children what we thought were good reasons. We thought we wanted them to be teased in the playground at school. These characters have different names. Obviously, I used family life and the kind of things that were said

and a lot of the kind of things that happened, but it was also semi-fictional. And I always think once you introduce some fiction into something, then you can't say anymore that's a truthful portrait of something. But the timing was terrible. And yes, I do regret, we never thought, I never, say we, because my husband's been very supportive through all this, I never thought it would go on so long. There came a point where we simply had to tell our kids it felt deeply uncomfortable. And then it all came out. And of course, it was the worst possible time because the lost child. I think I probably deserve all the trouble I got into there.

But the only serious point I would make probably is that I'm still proud of those columns too. I was in hospital last year and people came up to me and said, oh, you're the author of Living with Teenagers. I love that. Nurses in hospital. And that gave me a lot of pleasure. And I think it's still, I like to think I always write about love at the end of the day. I write honestly about family. I'm proud of what I've written. How do I be a mother and a writer at the same time and somehow balance it and not be a bad person? I don't know. I'm still trying, but I've tried to explore it in this book. Julie Myerson and her new book is called Nonfiction. We received an email from Jill who said, as the mother of a son who I always loved but couldn't always like,

I could relate to much of what Julie Myerson has said. My son suffered from schizophrenia and like her I struggle sometimes to separate the illness from the child. I admire her, it's the word That you heard It's got a groove, it's got a meaning Greece is the time, it's the place It's the motion Now Greece is the way we are feeling Of course, that is just one track from the iconic Greece.

It has to be one of the best-loved musicals of all time. And a new production in London's West End sees Olivia Moore as Sandy, Jocasta Armgill as Rizzo. They joined Andrea Catherwood in the studio on Tuesday and Jocasta told her why she thinks the music has such iconic status. For me, it was my childhood.

And I think for so many of us, we grew up with Grease. So it's just so well loved and it's really exciting to bring it back to the West End. It's really interesting you say your childhood because I mean I remember vividly going to see the musical when I was still in primary school and that was just after Grease the movie came out and it was the height of Grease madness you're both a lot younger than me. And so I wonder, was it still a big deal when you were kids? I mean, did you watch it, Olivia?

I mean, did you watch Olivia Newton-John as a child on screen? Yeah, my mum always says, you know, Grease is my era, my era. And so growing up, they definitely, you know, dvd in front of me and and yeah i have them to thank for my for my love of the film um because i used to watch it all the time i used to sing all the songs i used to dance around my room um so it is quite crazy that we're here right now you know at the at the dominion in greece it must feel. I was going to ask you how you prepared, but you've answered it. You've been preparing for all your life. So tell me, how different is this version from the original musical and indeed the film that many people are familiar with? You know, you've got all of the iconic songs,

you've got all the characters that everyone's going to be looking out for. But we felt it was really important to make changes, small changes that reflects the world that we's going to be looking out for. But we felt it was really important to make changes, small changes that reflect the world that we live in right now. That includes a diverse cast, same-sex couples, and empowering women and championing that because we think it's something that is incredibly important. And it's a production that we are, I am specifically, incredibly proud of.

Olivia, tell me a little bit about that, because I would suggest that some of the elements of the show haven't aged particularly well. I'm thinking of that song Summer Nights when Danny's friend says about your character, Sandy, did she put up a fight? Is that still there? It is. It is, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, when you're working with the material, you can't sort of deviate away too much from the book. But what Nikolai Foster, our director, tried to do was really in the staging and the casting, really bring strong women into the production to kind of combat that. It's also really important that it's nice when audiences nowadays can acknowledge that there is things that need to change and how we have moved on with time. So it's important that, you know, some of those things are still within the show, but audiences acknowledge that.

Yeah, and I mean, I'm going to fess up here uh Rizzo Jocasta and say that I auditioned for that role at the Ulster Youth Theatre back in 1984 I'll tell you that I didn't get it not that I'm still bitter if you asked me to sing you'd find out why I didn't get it but I can tell you that you were, you know, teenagers then and we didn't bat an eyelid, I don't think, as I recall, over any of those words or the kind of premise that Sandy had to reinvent herself and wear tight black trousers and leather trousers in order to get her man, you know. And in fact, that transformation was the climax of the show. So it's interesting to hear you talk today about, you know, young women today. You felt, and I just wonder, did the cast feel comfortable with it the whole way through? Or did you think, look, this is about something that happened in the 1950s, so we can acknowledge that and still enjoy it? Yeah, absolutely.

We had multiple conversations very early on in the rehearsal process about the misogyny within the text and um and how our diverse cast was going to rework this story um and it was it was always a very open conversation and I think that's why um we have managed to achieve it so well because everyone was open and not afraid to to speak their mind when they were like, actually, I don't feel this is quite right. Or I think we can make a better choice here. And of course, one of the major relationships in Greece is in fact, your relationship, the relationship between Sandy and Rizzo, isn't it? Because of course, you know, Olivia, Sandy,

you're on a voyage of discovery, if you like. I mean, it's a coming of age, you know, film, screenplay and theatre production, really, isn't it? Yeah, it wasn't something that actually we clocked onto immediately. But throughout rehearsals, we actually realised that I think everyone thinks that Sandy's transformation at the end is very much led through her desire to be with Danny. And actually, we realised it's really not about that. It's, you know, these two women who seem to have quite a lot of conflict throughout the storyline. They actually use each other and they really listen to each other. And I think they are huge influences

in the way that they kind of learn a lot about themselves. And, you know, at the end, Rizzo becomes, you see a lot more of her vulnerable side. And I think she... That wouldn't have happened without the guidance and seeing Sandy be so vulnerable and her realising that that's OK. Yeah.

Same with Sandy's transformation, sort of Rizzo's confidence and... She's so direct. Yeah. And I think that really helps Sandy come out of her shell and stick up for herself. And I think Sandy especially learns that you can have softer qualities to your personality, but you can also know exactly, you know, what you want and also how

you deserve to be treated. Now Jocasta I'm going to ask you to move over to our piano here in the studio we're going to hear a song that is the favourite of many teenage girls and lots of other people besides including my own I think There Are Worse Things I could do. Jocasta, go for it. There are worse things I could do than go with a boy or two. Even though the neighbourhood thinks I'm trashy and no good, I suppose it could be true. But there are worse things I could do. I could flirt with all the guys.

Jocasta, Armgill and Olivia Moore and Grease the musical is on at the Dominion Theatre in London until October 29th. Still to come on the programme, why more women should consider a job as a door supervisor or bouncer and the power of silence. The Women's Prize for Fiction has launched a campaign to encourage more men to read novels by women. Why? Because the stats are currently alarming. The research conducted for Marianne Siegert's The Authority Gap

found that of the top 10 best-selling female fiction authors, including Austen, Atwood and Agatha Christie, only 19% of their readers are men. Now, in comparison for the top 10 best-selling male authors, the split in readers is a much more even 55% men, 45% women. So in other words, women are prepared to pick up novels by men, but men are much more reluctant to read novels written by women, regardless of the genre.

Well, Kate Moss is a bestselling novelist, playwright and founder director of the Women's Prize for Fiction. I asked her whether she was surprised by those statistics. I was not surprised, I'm afraid. No, no. It's our old friend, the idea of neutral literature. You know, what literature is with a capital L. And there's always been this idea,

and this is kind of how it's taught in schools and colleges and universities, that there are books that are literature and classics. And they're not written by men or women. They're just kind of above everything. And then there are books by women that are sort of peripheral to that. Whereas, of course, the truth is that every book has an author. So a lot of this comes from the fact of what we study in schools. And that hasn't changed enough. So there is an organization called End Sexism in Schools. And they looked into the Key Stage 3 curriculum and discovered that 77% of schools taught only one or no whole text by female writers. So what you're getting

there is the idea that, you know, writing is the business of men with beards and everything else is kind of a sort of peripheral thing. So women writing about women are for women. But men writing about anything is for all of us. And women read both. You know, you could either say that, you know, we are very open. Most of us pick up a book and if we like the idea of it and we like the sound of the story and we like the writing style, we give it a go as the stats show. Whereas men are often encouraged. It's not only from the classroom.

It's also from jackets and marketing men are still encouraged to think of books written by women particularly if they have few you know male protagonists as being only for women and this is a shame because it means that wonderful men who would love amazing books by women are missing out and of course that's why I and others founded the Women's Prize 27 years ago, to say these are incredible books. Give them a go. You'll love them. Well, you know, we're throwing it out to our audience, right,

at BBC Women's Hour for their suggestions, which they can start bringing them in and, you know, maybe giving some man an idea of what he might like to dip into over this Jubilee weekend. I probably should do full disclosure again. I was doing my karaoke hits earlier with Bonnie Tyler. I generally will pick up a novel written by a woman. I am a little bit sexist in my reading, I think. I started trying to think, why do I do that?

You know, I think I'm looking for a female protagonist, maybe. I think that's a big part of it. And I think also that, of course, we all have different tastes. You know, I write adventure fiction. And when my very first adventure novel, Labyrinth, was coming out in 2005, I was wearing a jacket and it got a load of pink flowers up the side.

And my agent and I said, we lose the flowers because it immediately was saying, oh, this is kind of a girl's version of adventure. Whereas I write about war and the consequences of war and faith and the consequences of faith. And so it was important that I didn't have a feminized jacket. Now, it works the other way. Quite often you see books that are, quote, intended for men,

which has always got a shadowy man running down some kind of dodgy alleyway with a gun over his shoulder. So it's different in different kinds of genre. But the bigger point is, it's about the honoring of all human experiences. You know, we've been listening to a whole host of stuff on this brilliant show today. And, you know, there's no doubt that if women read books about men and men read books about women, a lot of the misunderstandings go away. Books help us to stand in other people's shoes. It helps us with empathy.

They help us to be bigger than just ourselves and our own experiences. And so we asked a lot of men, like Richard Curtis said, he's reading a lot of women, to put back 63 years of male bias. And he chose Olive Kitteridge. Ian McEwan chose the wonderful Dutch writer, Hannah Beerveldt. Andrew Marr chose Ali Smith. So we asked lots of men, OK, you tell us the one book by a woman that you think all men should read. And people have leapt into that.

And this is a celebration. It's a celebration of great writing. But gentlemen, you are very welcome. This is the point that books written by women are for you too. And your life will be so much happier if you read the Women's Prize. So I like this one from Kavita Pillay. She says, anything by Eleanor Ferrante, but then he'd know too much and we can't have that.

Oh, I see. We're all becoming spies now. Exactly. Yeah, I get it. I have a few others here as well. Somebody getting into saying they don't understand the reluctance now. Says, eye-bonding the piles of book either side of the

bed. It's at least 75% female authorship. OK, well, that's good to hear. A delightful novel, says Amanda Craig, for the Jubilee weekend. And Woman's Hour is Sophia Bennett, A Three Dog Problem. Her series about the Queen as a detective. Oh, I like that. That's very on point, I have to say, for this weekend, isn't it?

Fix the System, Not the Women by Laura Bates. Yes. And I've just, my new non-fiction book coming out in the autumn is about nearly a thousand women who have been left out of history or their achievements misattributed. And there are lots of those kind of books. But I think with novels, it's just about that idea of curling up with the story, isn't it? And so we're actually doing a vote. So please come and join the Women's Prize. Say the books that you love and you'd like to, you know, press into the hands of the men and the boys that you adore because, you know, they'll love them. You know, books are for everybody. And this is this is what this campaign is about. You know, men, come and join us. The water's warm. Yeah, I mean, I'm wondering, have you had any feedback so far to pushing this

idea in the sense of whether people are coming around? Well, I think, you know, when I was doing all these interviews nearly 30 years ago, setting up the prize, I was told two things. The first thing was, there isn't a problem, because if women were any good, they'd win the real prizes. And so then I would say, well, these are the statistics that even though 60% of novels written are written by women, only 9% of novels ever shortlisted for major literary prizes by women. And so then after that, it would be like, oh, yeah, but you know, writing is above gender. And I'd say absolutely right. But then when you look, for example, if The Times did the best 50 books of the past 70 years, they asked more men than women and men chose books by men over two to one, whereas women tended to

be more even handed. So this issue about honouring and keeping books on the shelf, if you like, what become the classics of tomorrow from today, there is a serious point to it. And we've actually had enormously positive responses to this, because actually people agree that a lot of people are worried about men and boys stopping reading novels. I don't think anybody should be worried about anything. If you're reading, you're reading, and we shouldn't be judging what people are reading and all of that. But it does matter, because actually the way that books stay on the shelves so that future generations can find them is partly because they are seen as important. And so it's that sort of sense.

If women are the majority of buyers of fiction and the majority of readers, it's when the figures go a bit wonky the other way, you realise that that isn't about people just making a choice. There is that underlying sense that what men write is more valuable than what women write. Kate Moss. Well, we received emails. This one from Morgan. He says, I consider myself a progressive, enlightened, open-minded man who's read since his teens.

And yet, when I look at my bookshelves, almost 100% of my favourites are by men. Ah! Exclamation point, he says. Never thought about it. Perhaps men have a yearning to learn what it means to be a man, more than vice versa. Either way, fascinating piece. I'm reaching wider now. Thank you. Have you ever considered being a bouncer or door supervisor, as they're actually called? Well, the world of door supervisors need you, especially if you're a woman, Well, the world of door supervisors need you, especially if you're a woman, because of the staff shortages the sector is facing.

Now that life is getting back to some kind of normal, three quarters of nighttime businesses, including bars, pubs and clubs, they feel that security staff shortages are undermining their ability to keep people safe. Now, we know this is a big concern for women, as 80% say they want venues to take their safety more seriously. Could training more women to get their security industry authority badge,

enabling them to work on the doors, be a solution to both these issues? Well, on Monday, Paulette Edwards spoke to Michael Kill, the CEO of the Nighttime Industries Association, and to Carla Lee, a door supervisor who works in clubs in Swindon and is setting up her own security business focusing on getting women into the industry. She told Paulette about that role. I only just joined this year after the pandemic,

so I love my role. I was at work this weekend. What made you decide to do it then? What was the trigger for you? Years ago, I have worked in a hospitality sort of industry in bars and restaurants so I just decided I needed a second job. My kids were grown they've all sort of you know left home or one's just leaving school so I'm a single parent needed a second income and always been interested in security.

So I just thought, right, let me just go and apply for my CIA badge. And yeah, so off I went and that's how I got into it. Let me ask Michael then. So Michael, do you think it'd be great to have more door supervisors like Carla then, more women in the role? Absolutely. My wife has been a door security supervisor, a head door person for over 20 years. And she only came out of the role to follow a different sort of career. So, you know, and she loved it. It was absolutely, she got so much out of it. And I think the thing is, is we need more women within this role because they

just add so much of a strong dimension in terms of welfare and diffusing situations they just act so much and I just don't think it's publicized as heavily uh in terms of the what women add to this role and how important they are and and, you know, they create this really, really strong balance within teams, which I think is a really big part that they play. Let's just go back a bit and talk about the shortages that we were mentioning there, Michael. What's actually causing them? Well, it's a range of things. I mean, as you can appreciate, things like Brexit have caused the issue,

the environment that we are having to work in, the rates. But there are also some challenges around the new training regime, which now requires you to take a training course that is longer. So it's up to, I think it's either five to seven days, but you have to do a first aid course before. And I think, as was mentioned, the challenge that you have is if this is a secondary job you're not going to give up a full week's holiday to do a training course to go into a secondary job so it makes it very very difficult and possibly the consideration around the market and the way that it works within the night-time economy particularly door supervisors is a is a real challenge but I you know, there were a plethora of reasons.

Displacement from the pandemic. You know, people have not had that work for nearly two years. They've had to go and find other work. So, you know, and the security of that other work is going to take precedent just in case something else happens within the environment that we're talking about. So I think there are a range of issues, but they need to be remedied moving into the the festival season and that those periods when security are going to be relied so heavily upon

Carla can we talk about the training then you said you went for your badge earlier what did that mean then what kind of how did you make room for that training as well yeah you know like I worked full time so I had to yeah take my holiday it was four days training and very intense course three women and 20 men so you know I was luckily I had all the the male support so a lot of them you know were working in that environment so they found it quite easy where you know I you know us ladies were sort of new into it and we had a lot of support and a lot of them have you know now we all sort of work together I was gonna say do you support each other then you talked about the support from the men but as women do you support each other as well yeah no definitely the group that I work with now in Swindon you know they're

fabulous I feel so safe um the comments we get from um the public that you know they they feel safe that the women are happy that they've got me so that they can come to me I I'm like that they're second eyes because I see a lot of people um they may be getting hit on and they're not feeling it. They may be a bit drunk. They're not, you know, they're very vulnerable. And this is when I sort of step in and just, you know, just make conversation. And I have diffused a few situations where, you know, the woman was just like, oh, thank you so much. You know, I think that's why I think it's really important and that I want to push more women, especially, you know, around my area.

I've only been working around the Wiltshire area at the moment. But, yeah, this is why I want to push more women security. I'm here for support. I've set up a Facebook page for any women that want to know how to get into it, because I think it's been seen as a male dominant field I think women don't really sort of look into it. Michael can I just come back to you for a moment and ask about just going back to shortages you mentioned Brexit there can you put a bit of meat on those bones for me please? We as a workforce have had a particularly in the security sector have had a very diverse workforce and during the pandemic many people went back to

their home countries. The challenge that we have is with the SIA figures and the Home Office coming forward suggesting that there's 248,000 or 246,000 door security badges in circulation. The problem we have is the figures that suggest which ones are active which ones are actually in this country um and the other thing is is where you've got a um a static security badge and a door security badge many people that do static roles which are things like guard offices etc um bought the door security badge but would never ever work on the door so there is almost a false economy in circulation of exactly how many active badges there are. And we talk about women within the security industry.

There's a suggestion that there is 10%, which is 24,000 plus. But again, we don't know how many of those are true active badge holders. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done by the regulator, the SIA and the Home Office to really understand what the challenge is. But Brexit has been a part, not all of it, but a part of the challenge moving forward. Can I just ask you both? So I used to be a teacher.

I'm now a radio presenter. Do you think I've got the credentials that I'd need for a door supervisor? Yes. Yes, Carla. Any'd need for a door supervisor. Yes. Yes, Carla. Any woman can be a door supervisor because I think that, you know, there ends the impression that you've got to be this big, tall.

You don't need to be like that. You're like the common influencer in the job. You know, you could be any shape, size. Carla Lee, door supervisor, and Michael Kill is CEO of the Nighttime Industries Association. Now, I know it might sound counterintuitive to suggest that staying silent can challenge workplace sexism. But to me, Ma'am is an anthropologist and a novelist. And for the past 10 years, she spent her time working in the world of tech startups, where she was often the only woman in the room.

She was struck by just how alien the language and culture was to her. She says she was overlooked, interrupted and patronised. And indeed, she felt like she had immersed herself in a remote tribe. So she decided to use her anthropology skills to decode this office culture. And in doing so, came up with a revelation about how many women try to be liked, to fit in and feel they belong, when in fact, a more powerful tool might be to say nothing at all. She told Andrea Catherwood how alien she found her first office environment. I had never had a proper job until about 10 years ago. And I also got that job in a very unusual way. My husband started a tech company and I started helping him. I was between novels and I started helping him on writer office culture. Now, this is a ubiquitous culture that

almost all women at some point in their lives enter, unless you're an academic like me. And I couldn't believe how alien it was. I couldn't believe how different it was from, let's say, university, where you have female role models and professors and people running universities. I realized that the workplace is a hierarchical institution. It's mostly led by men. And there is a culture that we have normalized that we wouldn't necessarily consider to be appropriate in other contexts. So even though I worked in the startup, I was on the board, I had a lot to do with the culture, I was able to change it for the better. When I was dealing with external people, investors, sitting on boards,

having meetings, there was a kind of language that felt completely alien to me. There was a kind of normalized, like casual sexism. Someone said to me, you know, let's open the full kimono as a joke, as a way of saying, you know, let's divulge. Let's open the full kimono as a joke, as a way of saying, you know, let's divulge. Let's open the full kimono. Yes, that is an actual thing that people said, totally deadpan. And at that point, I sort of stopped. And of course, I laughed nervously, as we always do. Then I went home and I thought, what do I do in this kind of situation? I don't want to be the person who sits there and says, well, I think that was deeply inappropriate. Although I wish I could.

That is one of the reasons that it's so difficult, though, isn't it? Because when somebody says that, and they say it as if it's the most normal thing in the world, what do you do? Well, exactly. And actually, not laughing along with a joke is something that feels culturally kind of inappropriate or culturally like a taboo. So one of the ways that we participate in tribes is by laughing along with their jokes. So then I started asking other women about sexist jokes in their workplace, and I kept a kind of list. And it was shocking to me. Almost every single woman I talked to said, I heard this joke, or I was in this at this office party, and this really random thing happened. I laughed along, I went home,

and I had, you know, felt bad. So interesting. I wonder, I mean, I know that you said that office life felt a bit like a kind of a foreign culture that needed decoded. You also said that you were you were interrupted, you were overlooked and patronized. But you were that all happened to you by people who were otherwise really nice. That's one of the difficult things, I suppose, about everyday sexism, isn't it? Because I mean, if a man is or a woman is very difficult, very boorish, then it's much easier to perhaps have a confrontation. But what about when they're being really nice to you? Yes, exactly. And that those are the ways in which misogyny and patriarchy are kind of embedded into our culture, where we kind of accept these little insults or these casual humiliations that happen to us every day. And

it's really difficult to call those out. And I had to come up with strategies for how to cope with those while still participating in the culture, because obviously, this was a place that I love to work. This was a job that I really loved. It didn't always happen to me. And I didn't always want to be, you know, the person that was raising my hand and saying, oh, I'm outraged every single day by something. You came up with three things that you find, three strategies. Talk us through them. Okay. So the first one is called stillness. And one thing that I find really difficult is having a totally passive face, where if I'm, you know, if I'm in a meeting, I feel that somehow it's my duty to be like a social, like lubricant almost, you know, weaving people's conversations together, being expressive, kind of nodding. So stillness, I found

it was very powerful in a meeting, especially to be very still and not to give away in my face the sense that I was there kind of to make people feel more comfortable. Okay, the second one is called holding. So I would hold silence instead of trying to fill a silence. And when there was, let's say, a sexist joke, I didn't feel like I had to laugh and I didn't feel like I had to protest. I could just be completely silent and maybe the other person would hear for the first time what they were actually saying without me having to point it out. And the third one was waiting, which I promise not to do, which is that I had to be positive and make the person feel better about their question. I think women are naturally empathetic. I think we want to make people feel comfortable. And somehow in the workplace, that means that we get less of an opportunity to just hold our power.

It's so interesting. I like your phrase, a social lubricant, because I feel that sometimes, particularly women, feel that that idea of being very enthusiastic and chipping in all the time and having lots to say and filling those gaps is something perhaps we do to make ourselves more, more likable. Perhaps we feel we'll simply be ignored if we stay silent. Yes, I think likability is a problem. I think we feel in order to succeed in the workplace, we have to please others. And that we're not just judged on the merit or the content of our work and on our productivity, but rather on how comfortable we make other people feel. And that is how sexism is deeply embedded in the workplace. It makes us feel like somehow, I had a friend who said, my boss told me I have an undiplomatic face. It's worse than that, because I listened to your TED talk. And you said that you wanted to retrieve that very sexist trope of resting

bitch face. Now, I hope I haven't shocked our listeners who haven't heard that phrase before. Can you just talk us through what it means and why you'd like to revive it, why we should have more of it? I think it's really important for us to take what is a sexist trope, which is a woman's face in repose, not being pleasant. Okay, this is something that women have been, especially older women have been called especially older women have been called. And I think we need to harness the power of resting bitch face at every age to hold a kind of stillness and, you know, resist the desire to please others in your face. Your parents were activists. They were freedom fighters in the Bangladesh War of Independence.

You've got, there's a whole other interesting side to you that we just don't have time to go Your parents were activists. They were freedom fighters in the Bangladesh War of Independence. There's a whole other interesting side to you that we just don't have time to go into today, I'm afraid, because you're a novelist as well. I just think that you probably grew up really wanting to speak your mind and being trained by your parents that you've got a right to speak out and say what you think. It must be very difficult for you to use silence as your weapon of choice. Exactly. And actually, I feel ambivalent recommending to young women that they should be silent. I think speaking out is absolutely politically our number one tool for creating institutional change, which we know is like the most important thing we have to do right now in the workplace to close the gender pay gap and to make it easier for working women to participate in the workforce and to advance and to grow and take on positions of power. On the other hand, sometimes small cultural changes can have a really powerful impact. collectively felt that they didn't always have to be likable at work, that they could hold silence

instead of always feeling like they had to fill a silence. I think we could really change the expectations that are put on us in the workplace. Tamima and we got an email from Tina who said a close female friend working in the construction business was so frequently subjected to the phrase let's open the kimono at meetings by her manager that when she left the young men in the team collected the funds and bought her a kimono the manager queried this choice but when it was pointed out to him how he used this phrase all the time he was suitably abashed that's all from me for today do enjoy the rest of your Jubilee weekend and join Emma Barnett on Monday at two minutes past ten.

Goodbye. There's somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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