Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Headteacher Emma Mills on smartphones, Paula Radcliffe, Met Gala fashion, London Grammar’s Hannah Reid

Episode Date: May 3, 2025

The negative effects that smartphones and social media access can have on students has become a national conversation in recent months, with differing views on who should take the lead in protecting children. Anita Rani was joined by secondary head teacher Emma Mills, whose school in Warrington has banned smartphones. Birchwood High attracted national attention two years ago when teenage student Brianna Ghey was murdered.Paula Radcliffe held the marathon world record for more than 16 years. The four time British Olympian secured the Six Star Medal last week, and has now run all six original marathons: Tokyo, Boston, London, Berlin, Chicago and New York City. Recently she's had her resilience tested in a whole new way - supporting her teenage daughter Isla through a rare and aggressive form of ovarian cancer. Now in recovery, Isla ran the London marathon last Sunday and Paula joined Nuala McGovern to discuss the experience.With the Met Gala fast approaching, we take a closer look at the business behind the red carpet with International Style Correspondent for the New York Times, Elizabeth Paton, and Fashion Editor for Glamour Magazine, Rosie Lai.For the last decade, Frances Ryan has been a columnist and reporter at The Guardian. She joined Nuala McGovern to discuss her new book - Who Wants Normal? The Disabled Girls’ Guide to Life. Part memoir, part manifesto, it explores six facets of life: education, careers, body image, health, relationships and representation, as well as how to survive life's bumps in the road.And London Grammar frontwoman Hannah Reid joined Nuala to discuss more than a decade at the helm of the band, their fourth album The Greatest Love, and what it’s been like navigating the music industry as a new parent.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Sarah Jane Griffiths

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Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome. Over the next hour, you will hear a few choice highlights from the week. Coming up, Paula Radcliffe is a four-time British Olympian whose daughter Isla has been following in her footsteps by running the London Marathon last weekend. In recent years, Isla has recovered from a rare form of ovarian cancer and we'll find out what it was like for Paula to witness her daughter crossing that finish line.

The journalist Frances Ryan on her new book, Who Wants Normal? The Disabled Girl's Guide to Life, will look at the business of fashion, or rather the business of the red carpet at the Met Gala. And fans of the band London Grammar are in for a treat as we have frontwoman Hannah Reid talking creativity, motherhood and the festival season. Lots to get through, so let's begin. First, delegates gathered in Harrogate yesterday for the annual conference of the National Association of Head Teachers. One of the topics of conversation was around the negative effects that smartphones and social media access can have on their students. This has formed a

national conversation in recent months with differing views on who should take the lead in protecting children, the government, schools, parents or tech companies. Well one secondary head who has implemented a full ban on mobile phones is Emma Mills. Her school, Birchwood High in Warrington, attracted national attention two years ago when Brianna Jai was murdered by a fellow pupil. Brianna herself had a harmful internet addiction, you may remember we heard recently from her mother, Esther Jai, on the programme. The phone ban at Birchwood began in September last year and Emma Mills joined me this week and I started by asking her how the ban

works in her school. So, of a morning as they come into school we have a row of desks that are manned by members of staff and they have phone pouches they call yonder pouches and they open the pouch they put the phone inside it has a lock at the top which they click shut they can't open it for the rest of the day and they keep the phone on them so we're not taking it off them they keep it on their person inside the pouch and then at the end of the day as they leave we have devices that unlock the pouches and then they have it on their way home from school. It's a little bit like you know the clothes tags that you get on clothes in shops, it's a little bit

like that, it's a really strong magnet that opens it up. Right so you're not confiscating them for the day, you're not taking them away, they keep them, they're just in a locked pouch that can only be unlocked by staff at the end of the day. Why did you want to bring this ban in for the students? I think it's really important that students, the children now growing up, realise that they can live without their phones, that they can have time without their phones. We haven't had mobile phones in school for a number of years, but students would have them in their bag, they might go and look at them at lunchtime in the toilets. But the biggest thing for me was that constant distraction of your mind. I know myself, if I'm in a meeting and my phone is on the desk and you see a light go off, you know, your mind's drawn to it. What's happening on

my phone? And that's what we found with young people who wouldn't necessarily be using their phone in school, but they're thinking about, has anyone replied to that Snapchat? What's going on? You know, it's just that thought and that pressure for them. So we wanted to do something different and we've seen over, I've been in education for over 20 years and the difference that we see in children now over that 20 year period is stark. Okay, well tell us then, what have you seen change in 20 years and what impact do you think phones have had? And then we'll find out what's happened since last September when you've implemented

this since you've implemented the ban. Yeah it's hard to put into words the change because it is so vast and I mean when I was a new teacher this web Facebook kind of face became a thing and we would have started to have some behaviour problems where children would go home, they'd log on to the family PC, maybe do half an hour on Facebook. They'd come in the next day and it would be so-and-so's call me this on Facebook, someone's posted this. And at that time we were like, this is awful, this is bringing a whole different dimension to behavioural problems into school. And if we fast forward 20 years on what schools are dealing with now in terms of safeguarding issues, in terms of grooming, in terms of extremism, in terms of sexting, but also other things.

Children don't, you know, the communication skills, the developmental skills, critical thinking, the communication skills, the developmental skills, critical thinking, resilience, the ability to be bored and to have mental struggle, the fact that they are used to having if you press a button you get an instant answer. It's having a huge effect plus the addiction side of it, the social media is coded to be addictive, inducing that dopamine in the brain. Just to clarify, the vast majority of schools don't actually allow the use of mobile phones during the school day, but they haven't made the choice to do what you've done, which is to actually take them away.

Yes, so I'd say, I don't think there would be many schools in the country that say you're allowed to have a phone, but their phones are in their bags. And whether that's, you know, they go and sneak to have a look at it at break and lunch or they go to the toilets. But for me, it's more that it's that distraction. It's also teaching them you don't need, you don't need to have your phone at all times. You can survive for six hours a day. So you started this in September. What have the results been so far? What changes have you seen? Much bigger than what I thought they would be, to be honest. I thought it was really important anyway,

like I say, to teach an assessment, but the impact that it's had is huge. And the children who, when we announced it last year, who were saying, you can't take our phones away from us. And now the children that come up and say, it's such a huge relief. Thank you so much for doing this. It's like a pressure taking off them. We love coming into school and knowing for five, six hours, I don't have to think about it. The other impact, we've got way more students. We do house activities on a Wednesday lunchtime. We do talk a war on the field. We do quizzes. More students

are getting involved in that. A lot more. It's been, I wouldn't say unmanageable at times, but a lot of enthusiasm. I would also say something we've all noticed at breaks and lunches, there's so much more chatter. We just hear them talking more, we hear them being children more. I think it's just, it really hit home to me how much the phones were having an impact in school even though we didn't see them. How interesting just that you can actually hear them being children. That's really shocking to hear about. There's been a debate publicly about whether a statutory outright ban would be beneficial

or if it should just be left up to head teachers to make the decision about their own schools. What do you think? I think it should be statutory. I think it's really difficult for schools when one school is doing one thing and another school is doing another and you know you're putting a responsibility of something on two schools but also you know it's the impact of the cost as well. And I think, you know, if it's government driven, then there should be funding for schools. The underpouches, they're not cheap, but it's a decision that we made to use our school funding for because we thought it was important. But I do think there needs to be a responsibility for the

government and it shouldn't just be put on head teachers to make that decision. And where do you think the balance should be between parental responsibility and schools? The Children's Commissioner, Dame Rachel D'Souza said recently, the people with the real power here are the parents. Yep, 100%. I think the problem is is that schools see the problems. We are exposed to it, we know what the children are exposed to and parents often don't know that and for me the you know the scenario that I would like to see is a public health campaign, something that educates parents and

where I mean I remember when I grew up it was always stranger danger and don't go on the train tracks. We need and there was that was very much about dangers in the real world and I think parents are very aware of dangers in the real world. What they're not aware of are the dangers in the online world and children are spending an increasingly larger amount of time in the online world. I do talks at primary schools and every time I speak to parents they have no idea, they have no idea of the things that their children can access and often the parents didn't grow up on social media so they're not as well educated and yes I do think that the biggest impact it would have is for parents to take control of it but how do parents do

that when they don't know what the dangers are? Well if they don't know what the dangers are and also they know how difficult it is to turn take that device away from the child once they come home. What do they say to you? What do the parents say to you about it? They say we don't want our child, we don't want to give our child a smartphone, we don't want them to go on social media, but we don't know how not to, because everybody else is doing it. We feel that they have to have a phone, they have to have a phone going to and from school. I think that the other part of it, the education part of it for parents is really around the

neuroscience and the impact that going onto social media and having that excessive screen time, the changes that actually makes to children's brains and that there should be more research into that that's shared by the government of why is the legal age for social media 30? Is it data privacy laws or is it because that is the right age for children to be on social media? And I think it has to be government driven that then informs and educates parents so that decisions can be made by them. And what about the changes that tech companies have implemented as a result of the online

safety act? Are they enough? I think it's a start in the right direction but it's not big enough and it's not quick enough. There are too many ways that it doesn't do the job that it needs to do. At the end of the day, the social media is a business model and it's designed to make money and part of making that money is for people to use it more and therefore it is coded to be addictive and while that is still a model and while children, teenagers whose brains are much more susceptible to the dopamine, then it's always going to be an issue. And how did the children react when you said that this was going to happen and their phones were going to be put into pouches that are locked throughout the day?

They weren't ecstatic. They were fine. There were some students who were more vocal about it than others. The younger students, they've come from primary school and they've just accepted it. I'd say it took two days of us having it in place and it's been absolutely fine since then. And if anyone would have told me that it would have gone this smoothly and been this successful I wouldn't have believed them. I thought it was going to be a little bit more of a struggle than it was but it's something the children have really embraced. We did a lot of work with them at the end of last year about the things that I'm talking about, about how they're being manipulated. I know the dangers

and talking about how they're being manipulated, and you know, the dangers that there are for them. So it wasn't just we're going to ban phones, there was a lot of work done beforehand, speaking to the students, educating them, educating the parents, and then they could understand why we were doing it as well. In 2024, there was research conducted by the Centre Right Think Tank Policy Exchange,

and it suggested that only 11% of English secondary schools had an effective ban and that schools with effective smartphone bans were more than twice as likely to be rated outstanding by Ofsted. Do you think there's a link between performance and a full ban on phones in schools? I definitely think so, because what what was talking about before, that idea of being distracted, there's more focus in lessons and like I said we've got more children than partaking in clubs and activities at lunchtime and what one of the big things that's really hit home to me is a lot of the students are saying to us they're not using their phone as much at home anymore because they've learnt in

school that they don't need it. So therefore, you know, whether it's doing homework, whether it's socialising, all of those things, chatting to other people, all of those things help to develop thinking skills, help to develop resilience, communication, all of which ultimately will help them to be more successful. Emma Mills speaking to me there. Now to the woman we all know as a world champion and marathon legend. Paula Radcliffe has broken records and redefined women's long distance running, holding the marathon world record for over 16 years. Last week, she the coveted six-star medal for completing

all six world marathon majors. In recent years the four-time British Olympian has had her resilience tested in a whole new way though, supporting her teenage daughter Isla through a rare and aggressive form of ovarian cancer. Isla is now well and ran the London Marathon herself last weekend with Paula cheering from the sidelines. Paula joined Nuala this week and Nuala started by asking her how it felt to see Isla running and finishing in last weekend's event. I think it was an emotional moment. It was certainly extremely emotional for Isla, who I'm not sure was fully prepared for that wave of emotion that hits pretty

much every marathon runner when they turn to see the finish. She had gone really well until about 30 kilometers and then she had had to walk for some of it, so she'd been tested but she managed to keep going. She was determined she was going to finish. We knew that the preparation had pretty much been non-existent in terms of what she'd been able to put in because of school work and other commitments that she's been juggling. But she made her mind up last year and if there's one thing about Isla that I'm extremely proud of when she commits to something, she sees it through right to the end. So she was exhausted at the end, but I think when she looks back on it, she'll be proud of herself

like all of those runners out there for coming through those tough spots and keeping going. So she gets her dog a determination from her mother? I think she probably triples that. Oh really? Okay well then definitely we need to keep an eye on Isla. But tell us a little bit because I mentioned just briefly there that she had been diagnosed with a rare and aggressive form of ovarian cancer when she was just 14? 13. We were actually, if you can call it lucky, we were certainly more fortunate in that situation because it was the teenage adolescent form of ovarian cancer. So she had a malignant germ tumor on her ovary and it is rare. It's not aggressive thankfully. It's a

tumor that grows still attached to itself and it is extremely rare that it would metastasize within the body. We were extremely fortunate that hers was contained. It was big. It was 16 centimeters by 13 by 11 on her ovary but it hadn't spread. So it responded very well to the aggressive treatment that she had and it was pretty much 99 percent killed and shrunk to a couple of centimeters by the time she had the surgery to remove it and the ovary and the fallopian tubes. And how did you know or she know that something was wrong? And a number of things, and it was kind of looking back, I think as a parent, you absolutely kick yourself for not having put the pieces together sooner.

But when they're all looked at in isolation, they don't necessarily all add up. So she was sleeping in more, but she was also a teenager. She was a little bit more, her emotions and hormones were all over the place. So she was a little bit more temperamental and would have some outbursts and would get just burst into tears for no reason. And then she was, she was, it was during COVID, so during lockdown. And she, we thought she started her periods, but then the periods became closer together and very dark blood. She felt the lump in her stomach, but she didn't tell anyone, and she was getting a lot of pain around that bleeding. So it was at that point that

we took her in to see the pediatrician, who immediately felt the lump and sent us for scans. And from seeing the pediatrician on Tuesday, we had scans on the Wednesday. It was confirmed on Thursday and by the following Wednesday, we were already starting chemotherapy. So it was extremely quickly handled. But also looking back, she had been raising her brother

and swimming underwater and things during lockdown. And she realized that she could go for less and less far each time because the tumour was taking up lung space and she would get pain in her bladder because it was also basically pushing down. It's quite something I'm sure looking back on it now Paula, that time that you went through and then this wonderful episode yesterday of her crossing the finish line with that dog of determination, as you described. But I wonder for other parents that are going through something, you know,

with their children, that they're in the thick of it, because I imagine you are an exceptional person when it comes to resilience. I don't know if there's something you learn from that particular experience or whether it's something that you draw on those reserves no matter what it is you do. Yeah, I mean I think you, nobody really knows until they're put into a situation like that how they're going to be able to get through it but I think you have to and part of the motivation for that is the strength of the children going through it. And Isla's outlook was obviously she was confronted with something scary and

she wanted to really take the lead from the medical professions in terms of what to do. But then she really just wanted to kind of absorb that and let her body do it. So I don't think she really, she very sensibly tried not to take too much other energy out of the tank in terms of worrying about it. She just accepted it for what it is. This is what they've said I have to do. It's going to be this round of chemotherapy, then it's going to be this recovery, and I'll have to do three of those. And I think all I could do, and that's the hardest thing as a parent, is you can't do it for them. You have to watch them suffer and find the strength to go through it.

And all you can do is kind of hold their hand and be there emotionally and do as much as you can to make it as smooth as possible for her. And you become extremely grateful for support networks around you in terms of friends and family. I missed my dad hugely. I'd lost my dad in the April prior to that. But at the same time, I kind of realized that everything that he had taught me growing up came into play in terms of you take one day at a time, you control what you can do, and you just keep a positive mindset on it and that was helped by the constant feedback from the medical side that yes the tumor is shrinking and I think that helped Isla too when you see that yes the

chemotherapy feels horrible but it's working and it's moving forward then that made it a lot easier for us. Yeah I'm just also thinking you know a 13 14 year old girl I'm sure as a mum, you sometimes want to shield them from bad news, but this is a situation where you have to be completely honest. You have to be completely honest. The medical staff are extremely professional. I mean, they're at that age where you actually first have to explain what a fallopian tube is, what an ovary actually is, and to kind of comprehend that understanding it at the same time. As I mean, I actually said that she was almost relieved when they told her that she had

cancer because she knew something was wrong, and she didn't know what it was. And so to actually put a name to it, and then to be able to, to take the advice and to for the medics to be able to fight it, that was a good thing for her and they are forced to grow up. But she is extremely mature now in her outlook and obviously it gave her a huge amount of perspective, it gave us a huge amount of perspective. The only important thing is that we get as many children as possible, as many people as possible, better again after they are diagnosed. And that's why Ayla was running, really to raise awareness.

Yes, yeah, absolutely. I mean, she was very well aware in the hospital that there were other children around who were worse off than she was and who were really struggling through that. And I think she was extremely grateful to come out the other side and to now be healthily approaching her final year at school and going away to university next year. And she just felt it was the right time to do as much as she could to raise awareness for our charity, Children with Cancer UK, but for just for children's cancer and cancer across the board in terms of doing what we can to fight it as much as possible. I'm really glad she as well.

And well done her for finishing your dad would have been fight it as much as possible. I'm really glad she as well and well done her for finishing. Your dad would have been so proud of that as well. Continuing the generational marathoners. But I want to talk about you as well because you won the coveted six-star medal for completing all six world marathon majors. So we've got Tokyo, London, Berlin, Chicago, New York, and then you finished in Boston. Congratulations on that. But I was also really interested to read that you say your body is done with road racing. Tell me what that feels like.

Honestly, it was frustration, I think, talking. So I'd gone out to Tokyo, I mean, I had different commitments and I didn't want to be away from the kids too much at that point. So I'd only gone out a couple of days before and I probably made slightly the wrong choice in choosing terms that of the fact that I bruised my foot. So that experience was it was hard work. And it was not exceptionally quick time, but I managed to get under three hours, which is one of the goals that I had. But it did feel like it was really hard work. And then I go to Boston and I actually felt great the first nine miles, I was really enjoying it. And I was starting to think, oh, actually I might be a little bit competitive

in terms of times that I can do here. And then it felt like somebody just shot a pellet gun in the back of my calf at nine miles and I went from feeling great and really enjoying it to worrying about whether I would be able to finish. Luckily I could keep running slower but it was frustrating because every time I tried to to pick it up again the calves just cramped and they're still pretty sore now but I did I was able to get to the finish so I think it was the frustration of I think structurally my body just can't run that quickly on the road. I might

be able to get my cardiovascular system into shape to do that but my body can't so I think now I will just continue running for fun as I have been doing and jumping into road races but for fun, not trying to push it. So still jumping into the road races. You heard it here. Yeah, forget about that body is done comment. Well, I think once you're a runner, you're always a runner and you can't work on and be around and witness events like the London Marathon and not want to be a part of that, whether it's as a small shakeout run, or whether it's as a 10 kilometer. You're always a runner and you always will revel,

I guess, in being in that atmosphere and that camaraderie and that spirit. And well done to everybody who took part out there. Paula Radcliffe speaking to Nuala there. Now, one of the year's most talked about fashion events is fast approaching the Metz Gala, which takes place next Monday. The biggest stars head to the Metropolitan Museum in New York to show off their highly anticipated outfits following a theme carefully selected by Vogue editor-in-chief Anna Wintour. And for the fashion houses and brands behind these ensembles, red carpets have become important events to showcase their best work, gain worldwide press attention and ultimately make money. But what about the women's role in the business of

red carpets? Are they just clothes horses for brands or can they use their moment in the spotlight to make money for themselves? What are the economics of the red carpet for women? Well, joining me to discuss this was international style correspondent for the New York Times, Elizabeth Payton, and fashion editor for Glamour magazine, Rosie Lye. I started by asking Elizabeth about this year's theme, which is very important at the Met Gala. This year, it's black dandyism inspired by a book by Monica L. Miller. What exactly does this mean and how has she interpreted it? We've just been chatting about this behind the scenes.

You know what's interesting about this theme is it's the first theme since 2003, which was Men in Skirts, where it's focused on menswear. So obviously usually there's a big focus on womenswear as part of the exhibit and this is a focus on menswear, but not just menswear, black menswear. And that means it's a real watershed moment. It's not something that the Met's ever done anything, anything like this really, would you say? What do you think Rosie? Yeah I think it's a super interesting theme because I'm really interested to see like how women are going to interpret it since it's predominantly, it came from menswear.

Black Dandism came from like I think the 18th and 19th century century. And, you know, it's really about, at the time, men putting together their looks in a very particular way, in a meticulous way, that showed off their fluency in fashion, but also, you know, how cultured they are. And I think it's ultimately an approach to dressing that can be applied to women as well. What does it say about sort of where the Met Gala, and I suppose

Fashion in America is kind of talk what they're saying about race and queerness and identity? It takes a number of years for any exhibition to come together. So I know that this exhibition was conceived originally around 2020 and after the Black Lives Matter moment. But I think it's incredibly important. I mean, there's been a lot of shows which have really focused on the sort of biggest names in fashion. This is an opportunity to look at some more underrepresented names in fashion, some rising stars in fashion, and to see some of the biggest celebrities in the world possibly wearing some of their designs. Interesting. So Rosie, how do you see women interpreting this on the red carpet? What are you expecting to see? I think there's a literal red carpet? What you're expecting to see?

I think there's a literal translation of it where we're going to see a lot of tailoring, potentially a lot of maybe exploded silhouettes of tuxedos. But at the same time, I think there are a lot of examples of celebrities who don't follow the theme perfectly. And it's just since this is about expression and kind of showing off your personality, it can come in so many different forms. I'm so excited to see potentially what Janelle Monáe is going to wear. I mean, she's been doing black dandyism forever, hasn't she? Forever, yeah. And also, the dress code is actually tailored to you.

So there's a theme and then there's that dress code, which gives a little more flex for people to sort of interpret it. So you can take on bold patterns, bold prints, you know, I think that will go beyond just tuxedos and tailoring we'll see some interesting designs too. I'm personally hoping that Grace Jones will grace the red carpet. How she made Anna Wintour's cut is the greatest thing she should do. Okay how important is that, Anna Wintour's cut? It's about being on the in list, isn't it?

How do you get on the list? So I guess the thing to remember about the Met is unlike most other big red carpet moments, the Oscars, the Golden Globes, Cannes, where it's the brands, the stylists, the agents and the talent who work together to conceive of a celebrity's look for that moment, you're only getting on that red carpet and you're only wearing that outfit if Anna has said so. She will personally sign off on every single outfit to ensure it matches the theme. Correct. Every single outfit. Every single celebrity or every outfit? Every celebrity and every outfit will be personally picked by her and her team. So it is a very

different event from most other red carpet events. So it's specifically curated. Yeah. So what will this do? We mentioned brands earlier and what this black dandyism will hopefully kind of shine a light on smaller underrepresented brands that we've not seen. What can an event like this do for the brands? And what specifically does the Met Gala do for brands and the women wearing the dresses? Well a key example of that I would say is Rihanna and Guopei because Guopei was a very well known couturier maybe in the East but because she wore that to China through the

Looking Glass that year, Guopei became a name on everybody's lips afterwards. And this is what this platform can do. Ultimately, it is a platform, a launching pad for a lot of brands, both big and small. And so I'm hoping to see a lot of that maybe for young black designers today as well. Grace Wells Bonner, you've got Bianca Saunders, even more established ones than, you know, from the past, but like the Dapper Dan, like, I think there's so many of these opportunities to also educate audiences on all the talent that's out there. And how did brands decide which talent to work with? They decide with Anna. But how it works, so I can talk a little bit to the numbers, for example. So a ticket to the Met

costs $75,000 per person. a table cost $350,000 per person and a sponsor is around $8 million. So considering this is a charity event, that's a huge amount of money. They made $26 million last year and a brand will buy a table and then Anna will help them decide what talent can sit at that table. And then of course some of that money goes towards sponsoring brands that might not otherwise be able to be there by bringing them to the party. And what can it do for a woman wearing that brand and how much of it is about the brand and how much is it about the what it can do for the personal brand? And give us an example. Well I think Loewe is a really good example of a brand that takes young

actresses and actors and kind of puts them on this global stage and transforming them from being an actress to being a fashion icon. I think this is what red carpets in general, but the Met can do is to change people's perception of a certain actor or actress. Ambika Mod last year, who was in One Day, She Wore La Hueva. And that was a moment for Britain. It was a moment for South Asian women, all of it. And so that's an example of that.

But how would it then help the young woman in the dress? Like, I mean, of course, the brand is going to get something out of it, but can women use it to their advantage? I mean, it's a challenging balancing act because, you know, there was a time when big, big brands, blockbuster brands, would just throw millions of dollars at A-listers. But actually, they've realized, especially in the social media age, that people have different followings, different interests.

And actually, the arms race now really is to pick the next big thing, the next big actress. I'm undecided as to whether an unknown starlet can make her career purely by red carpet dressing. She has to be, she has to have her foot through the door. But really strategic thoughts about how she styles herself, how she presents herself to the world. You will get eyeballs, you will get photographs, you will get clicks and people will see that. And how does that then with for the brands, Rosie, filter down to as mere mortals? Because this is, I mean, it's so unattainable. It's fabulous to look at, but what's the impacts on the actual brand themselves when it comes

to sales and the bottom line? I mean, ultimately, it's brand awareness. It's also garnering a very loyal following for yourself. And you're also showing what your values are in the people that you pick and where you're headed and the kinds of, the kinds of, if it's whether it's craftsmanship that you care a lot about, whether it's about diversity, and I think all of these are messages that you're sending in the talent that you're picking. But one thing I do think is for sure is that increasingly the red carpet is geared

towards the Instagram age. You know, the time of sort of, there are a few elegant and demure ball gowns still floating around, but increasingly brands are very strategic and focused on not just what it looks like in that initial impact moment as they come out of their limousine and go up the Met Gala red carpet,

but then how will it be consumed by millions of people all over the world when they look at it via their phone? And how has that changed what they do? I think this is where why we're seeing a lot of archival pieces on the carpet because I think brands and audiences value storytelling and the more the deeper the story behind the look the more your piece is going to be talked about and for longer, right? For Kim Kardashian wearing Marilyn Monroe. Marilyn Monroe, yeah exactly and that was dissected you know for weeks afterwards and whether you like

it or not it became a moment for Kim and for the brand. So she made it her moments. She's very good at making it her moments. Who else is very good at making it? Who else has used this platform? I would say Zendaya. Zendaya was the big example. Working with Laura Roach, her stylist, and I think they've been very strategic with June last year and Challenges last year, that amazing Thierry Moogler bodysuit, sort of metal bodysuit, and lots of sort of very tongue-in-cheek flicks to whatever film she was taking a part in. Margot Robbie with Barbie, now arguably she was already a big star, but I think she and her stylist absolutely raised the profile of that film by her strategic use of costume and wearing fashion at all the press junctures.

So it's kind of flipping it around, isn't it? It's no longer just women wearing dresses and being clotheshorses, they're actually using it and empowering themselves and using that moment for their own gain. The right partnership or collaboration with a brand could garner these women millions and millions of dollars. It's not chump change. Elizabeth Payton and Rosie Lye talking fashion. Still to come on the programme, Hannah Reid, the front woman of the band London Grammar on creativity and motherhood. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe

to the Daily Podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now Frances Ryan is an award-winning journalist and author. For the last decade, Frances has been a columnist and reporter at The Guardian and was named Commentator of the Year 2024. Her work has made the front pages of The New York Times, The Guardian and British Vogue, and now Frances has a thought-provoking new book out, Who Wants Normal? The Disabled Girl's Guide to Life. Part memoir, part manifesto, it explores education, careers, body image, health, relationships and representation as a disabled woman. Francis says that disabled women are by far the biggest

minority group but the least visible. Francis was born with a muscle weakness and has used a wheelchair from childhood, but her condition has been more challenging since contracting flu in 2017. You may remember that in March the government announced benefit savings of £5 billion, including tightening eligibility for personal independence payment and non-means-tested benefit to support people with everyday tasks. The government say that without radical reforms to the benefit system, it could cost the taxpayer as much as £70 billion annually by the end of the decade. Well, Frances Ryan joined Nula this week and she began by asking her how she went

about defining disability for her book. Actually, you know, over one in four women in the UK now have some sort of disability. And that can be anything from a mental health condition, disability and that can be anything from a mental health condition, you know, a chronic illness, to a visible physical disability. And it was super important to me to include everybody and to kind of challenge that sort of stereotypical view of disability that people might have and to say actually includes so many of us and people that you might not think of. Yeah, so whether it was Jamila Jamil, for example, or Katie Piper, Ferne Cotton,

we get some of their stories weaved through the book as well. But I was struck when I was beginning your book that you said, I went to the pub, I got drunk on cheap wine and caught the flu, and then your life imploded. It's so stark. I mean, you put it like that and it sounds almost dramatic, doesn't it? It sure does. It was, I mean, obviously it's a joke.

You've got to laugh at that point, really, haven't you? But I think what I was trying to say, though, was that I think everyone with a disability, you spend half your life genuinely kind of worrying that something's going to happen to someone you love or you think about it in these dramatic terms but actually so many of us it just randomly happens isn't it whether it's a cancer diagnosis or or a car accident or or in my case a post-viral illness. You can't see it coming, it just randomly happens one day and it's just part of life. Yes, I mean, but it's interesting that the point that you make there,

Franz, is that it's so pervasive, right, that lives can change from one minute to another. I remember I had one guest once who was on about caring that says, you know, we live in these breakable bodies and when it's so pervasive, why do you think there's so little visibility or awareness? Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because disability is the biggest minority in the country. It's the biggest minority in the world. But you could easily argue, and the stats back up, that

it's the most ignored, it's the most misrepresented. Disabled people are still segregated in many ways from mainstream society. You get very few disabled people in leadership roles, in the media, so we're leadership roles, in the media. So we're not the ones telling the stories. You break your book down into various chapters. So whether it is taking a look at education or careers, for example, if we begin in the workplace or perhaps the path to the workplace, what do you think people should know about the barriers that are there that are not well recognised for disabled women?

I think we're seeing at the minute aren't we a lot of headlines about disabled people not working. I think we've all seen those front pages and I think there's so many things I could say about that but one thing I hope my book does say is that there's huge value in people whether or not they're able to work and that's a really important point that disabled people often um sort of viewed as as burdens on society and you can only prove you're not if you show you a taxpayer, but actually, there's a huge amount of value to every single person, but you don't have to have a nine to five to do that.

And secondly, disabled people that are able to work, and most of us are, were still often discriminated against, and were still often sort of kept out of the workplace if you like because of barriers such as you know simple stuff like not having reasonable adjustments i.e. your legal rights to certain adjustments in the workplace that disabled people often still struggle to get for example or things like whether you know someone will simply hire you you know disabled people have to send out on average 60 percent more cvs than other people

and when we disclose add disability on a cv simply because there is so much prejudice still about disabled people that bosses are straight out refusing to hire people. So I think in the current news agenda, should we say, more than ever it's so important to sort of create a much richer and fuller picture of what it's actually like out there. So we've a lot of the legal or the workplace situations that you talk about but a lot then of instead of the professional or the public shall we say a lot of the personal is in the book too whether that's relationships for example dating

a really big issue for disabled women is that weird prejudices, shall we call them, mean that a lot of people still assume that disabled women don't have relationships like other people, whether that's going out on a night out with friends, or having sex, or getting married, or having children. It's still really taboo subject and people genuinely still find it quite shocking that disabled women are having the same desires or interests or social relationships that the other people, so-called normal people if you like, have. I'd say it's probably one of the biggest issues that people are still so, so prejudiced about. There was a line that struck me, Frances, which was like

embrace your disabled identity. Yeah, I think it's what those things were. So I think as women generally, we're fed messages all the time, aren't we, about how we should be, whether it's you know being skinny or whatever society does a really good job of giving us those instructions and for disabled women we get all those but we get a load of extra ones too it generally comes down to that we have a duty to hide our disability whether that's not using a mobility aids when we're out the house, or being ashamed, if we have something like scars, for example. And that's a really awful way to live those

sort of toxic messages that you're sent really constantly by the museum and culture. And I think one thing I hope the book does is sort of set out a bit of a comforting sense of solidarity, if you like, that there are so many millions of women who are going through these feelings every single day and they all have different advice of how they sort of cope with those feelings. But the general message I think was that we all have these moments of self-doubt, we all know where they're coming from. It's not coming from ourselves, it's coming from the society that we live in. But actually we don't have to accept those toxic messages. We can find, you know, a sense of community in other women and we don't have to hide and feel ashamed of a disability even if there's so many messages telling us that we should.

It just reminded me again, Frances, of one anecdote that online, for example, there's the video of the bride on her wedding day that manages to stand up from her wheelchair and walk up the aisle assisted. And you asked the question of like, why is that the ideal instead of her using her chair to get up the aisle, for example, to be married? Yeah, I think those videos are funny, aren't they? Because if that's her choice, and if she's really happy doing that, absolutely. But generally it's not about that, is it? It's about how happy her family are, her friends are, in the comments are complete strangers going, you know, how wonderful it is that she's

not having to use her wheelchair. And that isn't really how most people who actually are disabled feel about themselves. Of course we have what you might call internalised ableism, i.e. we take on those shameful messages that society sends us, but actually for most people those things like wheelchairs are the tools that enable us to live full lives, but society sends you messages that says that somehow a woman should be embarrassed or ashamed for using something like a wheelchair. No one sends those messages to people that wear glasses anymore, but when it comes to something associated with disability, like a wheelchair or a cane or something like that or hearing aids,

it's something that women supposedly should have to remove from themselves in order to look attractive or to be happy. You can't possibly have the happiest day of your life whilst looking disabled is the idea. But I think that's really interesting isn't it, that you can't associate I think that's really interesting isn't it, that you can't associate things like being happy, being loved, being beautiful with being disabled. And I'm wondering how you see that changing around. There has been progress made, which you say as well, compared to a few decades ago, women in public life, Greta Thunberg, Billie Eilish, Selena Gomez, Lady Gaga, women with disabilities winning Oscars, leading communities, legislating in

Parliament for example. So I don't know, is the road going in the right direction even though there's a long road ahead? Yeah, I mean I think one of the messages is hope really. I think people are surprised about that because yeah, there's loads of inequality, there's loads of things we need to change, but there's also millions and millions of disabled women doing incredible things every single day, contributing to society in a thousand ways, and we need to have that narrative more than ever I think now. Francis Ryan there and her book Who Wants Normal? The Disabled Girl's Guide to Life is out now. Now the next guest, Hannah Reid, is the unmistakable voice of the band London Grammar.

Known for their unique sound and her soaring vocals, with three previous critically acclaimed albums under their belt, the band recently finished touring their fourth album, The Greatest Love, and will kick off a summer of European festival dates in London next month. This latest record also coincided with a profound lifestyle change for Hannah, becoming a parent and navigating a new era as a woman in the music industry. Well, she joins Nula in the studio this week and Nula started by asking her what the greatest love referred to. I think it refers, well, I think for me now it actually refers to something different. I think as a lyricist what's quite nice for me is that my lyrics can take on a new meaning

as my life goes on. I think at the time when we were making the record it was about self-love and there were kind of a lot of religious references, to be honest, even though I'm not a religious person. But it was about what is the greatest love, basically, for you. And if you can find that, you can channel that out to other people in your life. You became a mother recently.

Congratulations. Thank you. How has it been being a mom and being a pop star, and touring, and all these great things? Where do I begin? You know, it's funny because when I was pregnant, my bandmate has two kids. And he's always very, very respectful of me. He never wants to like patronize me or I can be quite strong willed, especially when it comes to the band and our music.

You're a front woman, you gotta be. Yeah exactly, you have to be. And I was like, oh yeah, it'll be totally fine, I'll just have the baby, you know, we'll have six months off, play Glastonbury and then go on tour and it will be fine. And he was like, are you sure? And I was like, yeah, I'm sure. And he kept on saying, are you sure, sure? And I was like, it'll be completely fine. And I think like, until you go through it, you just don't know what it's going to be like. And yeah, I wouldn't recommend touring

with a nine month old baby. It wasn't the easiest thing I've ever done. How did you do it? So my partner had to come. That's what we realized really, really quickly, just because Josh, our son, was so young, he was really dependent on both of us, and it kind of had to be me or him. So my partner was very supportive, obviously, and came. And I think the way that I got through it and this is one thing about motherhood that really actually surprised me that I never could have

sort of foreseen happening is it put a lot of things into perspective for me so a lot of things that would have made me very very very anxious ten years ago actually don't make me anxious at all anymore. Can you give me an example? Well I think going on stage in general, in front of thousands of people, I quite famously had terrible stage fright, which I still do have. Obviously, I still get really nervous. But there was something about the process of becoming a mom

where I think it just put something into perspective, where I'm kind of on stage. And I'm like, well, the only thing that really matters is my health and the health of my son and my family. And it actually enabled me to kind of enjoy the shows in a way that I think when I was 24, if I'm really honest, I'm not sure if I really was enjoying myself. So thank God for that. Because if it wasn't for that, I think I would have found it even harder than it was. But yeah, I mean it was tricky. Like a survivor warrior mentality is what I'm hearing from you on stage after you become a mum. Yeah and I think as well there's a certain vulnerability that came with becoming a mother

that I think a lot of my girlfriends and I have spoken about, which another thing that kind of surprised me was the strength that came from that. And I've actually built a career off vulnerability. That's literally what I do is I have to make myself vulnerable to write the songs, the music. That's what people connect to, I think, when I sing. There's always like crying people in the front row. And were moments I think postpartum where I was a bit like I'm so vulnerable right now can I actually physically and mentally do this at all I'm really really not sure but again I kind of found more strength than I thought in that vulnerability and I kind of have this new openness with my vulnerability in a way that I didn't have before. It I kind of have this new openness with my vulnerability

in a way that I didn't have before. It's so interesting, yeah, because you have to, obviously as a performer, give a lot for yourself as well. To be in a vulnerable state and be able to give is a powerful image, actually. There's been much more of a conflict for me in the creative process process because I would say that what my job actually is now, like what I'm an expert in, is holding onto a creative

process kind of the beginning, the middle and end. That could take a couple of years. And doing it the same way because some creative artists, you know, I'm trying to think, you have to get up at 5am or you sleep until 10am, whatever, but you have a way that you do it or you ready up over a certain amount of weeks or that you have to be eating a certain thing or not or being immersed in certain art or you know what I mean, being prescriptive about it. So I have a lot less of that time and that does have a bit of an impact. A lot of my creative energy I now am finding is going towards my son. It's interesting. It's kind of a similar process

in a way for me. I'm like, motherhood is going to be one long creative process basically. But it means that I have less time kind of lying around thinking, which, and I do think like in some of my past relationships, maybe, or or some friends like sometimes it would look like maybe I was doing nothing but I'm like I'm never doing nothing it's like you know I'll be relaxing and feeding my brain to then go and write those songs whereas now I don't have as much of that time it's like changing nappies and... So I'm wondering does the inspiration strike at that point or do you have to make space for it?

I have to make more planned space for it. Yeah. And I'm very, very, very lucky that I have such amazing bandmates because what I'm really good at doing now is if an idea comes in, I just okay I don't necessarily go into the studio instantly and record it and slave away over it like maybe I would used to but I can send like a voice note to one of my bandmates and it kind of is a bit more flexible like that now. Lots of people getting in touch that were inspired by you. Sissy before having kids I worked in fashion but on the business

side it wasn't until both my kids were in nursery that I had time to reflect on my life and figure out exactly what I wanted from it. Since October I now have a company making wood and silk felt clothing. After I drop the kids off at school I go straight into my studio and create with so much energy knowing I have to pick some up and get that tree. So I feel I'm the happiest I've ever been how lovely is that? That's amazing. You're headlining the brand new LIDAR festival in London this summer. Yes. What can we expect? You can expect some great acts, got the Blessed Madonna, Celeste, Roisin Murphy. Yeah, Roshene Murphy. Yeah, incredible artist. And what I hope is you can see a lot of vulnerability, women being really strong and making themselves vulnerable at the same time. And quite like we spent years now refining our show and it's quite high energy and it's, yeah, should be good.

Hannah Reid of London Grammar. That's it from me. Join Nuala on Monday when we'll be focusing on the mistakes we make and the impact they have on our lives, why we often cringe when we make a mistake and why women can be judged more harshly when they slip up. Surprise, surprise. Have a lovely weekend. Have you heard of axolotls? They're wide-eyed smiling amphibians with the superpower to regrow lost limbs. I'm Hannah Gelbart. Join me on What in the World to hear how scientists are helping axolotls to thrive and what we can learn from their ability to regenerate.

What in the World is an award-winning podcast from the BBC World Service. We go in depth on a different topic every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Listen wherever you get to your BBC podcasts.