Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour - Healthcare workers on the frontline, Debbie McGee and Naomi Paxton, virginity testing

Episode Date: January 16, 2021

Emma, a pediatric nurse, who has been redeployed to an Intensive Care Unit talks about what it’s like to care for Covid patients and the daily stress and pressure currently experienced by health care professionals.Amy Pope, former deputy home security advisor to President Obama talks about Congresswoman Liz Cheney, one of ten Republicans who crossed the floor and voted with the Democrats to impeach President Trump for the second time. Author Debra Waters and science journalist and author Helen Thomson talk adult crushes. Should we see crushes as normal, exciting and harmless ways of understanding ourselves and our needs? Or is it morally questionable if you’re in a loving, committed relationship? We hear from Anjali Raman-Middleton who went to primary school with Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah who was nine years old when she died in 2013. She had a rare and severe form of asthma. Angali co-founded 'Choked Up' with three other teenagers to lobby against the pollution that contributed to Ella's death.Richard Holden, MP for North West Durham, Natasha Rattu, Director of Karma Nirvana and Dr. Naomi Crouch Chair of the British Paediatric and Adolescent Gynaecology Society and spokesperson for The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists talk about the Virginity Testing (Prohibition) Bill that was introduced in the House of Commons by Richard in December . Debbie McGee and Naomi Paxton talk about being sawn in half and what it’s like to be a magician’s assistant.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Paula McFarlane Editor: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. I've got quite a selection of choice cuts from the week. American politics. Amy Pope, former Deputy Home Security Advisor to President Obama, talks about Congresswoman Liz Cheney, one of 10 Republicans who crossed the floor to impeach President Trump for the second time. Much closer to home, we hear from Emma, a paediatric nurse who's been redeployed to an intensive care unit

and talks about the huge pressure of working on a COVID ward. And we have some magic. Not a lot, just a bit. Dancer and magician's assistant, Debbie McGee, talks about being sawn in half. That's where the saw goes right through you and then the boxes are pulled apart and you can actually see the assistant's body in the middle. so um soaring in half is when they saw right through it and then they can split

both halves so so that's the difference um but it's noisy it's like being at the dentist will she reveal the secrets of how it's done though we're also going to increase your heart rates and hear about adult crushes and whether they're normal or morally questionable if you're in a loving, committed relationship. On Monday morning, the Chief Medical Officer, Professor Chris Whitty, said we're in the worst point of the epidemic in the UK. Over 30,000 people who have Covid are in the NHS system. In a tweet, he also said the number of people in intensive care units is rising rapidly. So what is the toll on the army of healthcare professionals who are looking after

COVID patients? We received emails from healthcare workers saying they're close to handing in their notice because of the strain and others describing the daily stress and pressure on the wards. But it was an email from Emma, a paediatric intensive care nurse who's been redeployed to an adult intensive care unit that particularly caught our eye. She explained why she got in touch with Woman's Hour. I think I was listening to the programme when I'd finished a night shift and I was just feeling generally demoralised, you know, and just I could hear a lot of people as understandably complaining about lockdown and feeling very upset but the fact they're stuck at home with their children and

all of these things and I just felt a sense of wanting to get this message out there again that some people are are really struggling with this on the front line. And not even so much for myself, but for my colleagues, seeing them really at breaking point and actually things continuing to get worse. That's kind of what made me want to get in touch. There's a lot to talk about there. But if I may just start with, and I know we're not going to name your hospital, but if I may just get a sense of what it's like in your hospital at the moment and how that's changed. Yeah, so I work in a really large London hospital. We have actually physical space for more patients. So it's continually opening more and more beds for intensive care patients. But obviously, the problem we've got is that there just aren't the nursing staff to cover those beds so we are being asked to stretch ourselves more and more thinly

um people are volunteering i mean it's amazing you see you see consultants working as health care assistants and people are coming in to try and at least be bodies on the ground to help but the the people i mean and i don't consider myself one of the most highly trained because I'm not used to looking after adults but at least I I know how to look after a ventilated patient but though for those who um those adult intensive care nurses are under so much pressure because even though they have people helping it's just not enough and they're sometimes looking after four or five ventilated patients essentially by themselves when it should be one to one. Can I just say, if I may, a huge thank you

to you, I mean, and to your colleagues. You know, we're going to talk in more detail about how you're doing and some of the other things you picked up in your note. But even the way you just said, you know, I'm not as qualified because normally I'm doing this on the paediatric intensive care unit side you know I'm sure I speak for many when I just say thank you thank you that that means a lot thanks because that's that's part of also what you're saying here which is that you you do feel perhaps it's a bit different this time around don't you in terms of that it's not that you're looking for recognition beyond but just in terms of that awareness of of what's going on here yeah I I can understand it because obviously everyone is so much more fed up with it this time around and I think therefore the the support that was there the first time is just not people don't

yeah they just it doesn't feel any way to us that there is the same time is just not, people don't, yeah, they just, it doesn't feel anyway to us that there is the same level of support that there was the first time. What would make you feel that, do you think? I don't know, because I know, I know there's been a talk of the, you know, the NHS clap coming back. And that is, is the kind of thing that a lot of nurses and doctors don't feel is helpful. I mean, I personally don't have an issue with it. I think if people want to show their gratitude and they feel that's a way of doing it, then I don't see the problem.

But I know that a lot of people feel like what they really want is just for everyone to follow the regulations. And what makes us angry is when we go on public transport and people aren't wearing their masks or you see groups of people clearly still not following the rules after all of this. Have you said anything to anyone, if you've seen them not following guidance? We are seeing, I suppose, people trying not to police each other, but to try and help us in this time. No, I haven't. I must admit I haven't because I because you're going to understand it I can understand when people have you know young people want to meet their friends

and you do you understand how frustrated people are but no I don't I just don't want to get into those debates with people usually I'm too too exhausted too exhausted after let's talk about the work that that you're doing because I was also very struck by you saying you feel fairly devastated at the end of each shift and you're unable to take pride in the way that you you care for your patients as you usually do and and patients are looking to you aren't they for assurances can you tell us a bit more about that yeah so um i think one of the hardest things for me is so obviously we're looking after ventilator patients but not all of them are ventilated and

you get people who are there in very vulnerable positions and they look to you and they they ask you do you think i'm going to get through this? And they're looking around, seeing people dying, seeing people crumbling, and you can't reassure them really because you just don't know. And I found that kind of the emotional toll of that, trying to reassure people, just really unbearable. And I also think, yeah, this idea we we can't give the care that we want to give it's been spoken about many times before but you're you see people in need and you can't

help them and at the end of your shift you try and switch off from it but you know you feel you should have done more you feel you could have been better you know you feel you should have done more, you feel you could have been better, you know, you feel you should do extra shifts to help your colleagues more. You know, there's just this constant sense of need and even when I'm at home, I feel that I should be doing more if I can. Because also we should say your partner is also in this line of work. He's an anaesthetist under normal circumstances but has also been redeployed. Yeah, so he's just, he will be coming back any minute from his night shifts. He's been

working in intensive care. Yeah, as an anaesthetist. So yeah, we're both kind of in the thick of it. We're lucky we have a young son who kind of keeps us sane, I think, because, you know, when we're looking after him, we have to forget about it. And we do try to switch off because otherwise it would just get very depressing if all we talked about was COVID all the time. You know, I can hear it in your voice just how exhausted you are, you know, and I think what you're talking about there will hit home with people. But we still know some people, I've had a few messages and saying I'm trying to help help by just staying at home and doing my bit but we know some people just are not doing that is it is there something you want to say to leave them with from you and from your partner's perspective yeah I just think I mean it's just yeah that plea of if think about what others are doing and how much you know I still haven't been vaccinated um as some of my

colleagues aren't we are essentially putting our lives you haven't you haven't been yet no I haven't haven't yet been vaccinated um it's I'm due to be this week but there's been a few issues I've had an appointment cancelled it's difficult to do it when your work shifts and you can't leave your patients so you know there is that sense of safety that you're worried about and worried about bringing it home to your family and um so yeah I just would it's been said so many times but please please do what you can I know it's so boring to stay at home but it will help us and then we can get past this peak and start making things better. Let me talk now to Nikki Credlin, chair of the British Association of Critical Care Nurses.

I think it's correct to say 89% of nurses in this country are women. I don't quite know the ratio in critical care. Perhaps you do know. What is the ratio in terms of intensive care? One to one, three to one, four to one. Can you tell us about the the number of critical care nurses to patients at the moment? Yeah so usually we have specific intensive care standards which mean that we have one critical care ICU patient so a ventilated patient to one fully trained intensive care nurse and that's how we manage service delivery most of the time. At the moment what we're hearing is that in some trusts, we've got

one fully qualified intensive care nurse to up to four patients at the moment. Wow. So we're expecting them to work a quadruple their normal workload. And that is just not sustainable for any length of time. What impact do you think this is having on staff and potentially for the future? It's having a huge impact right now. And I can certainly echo a lot of Emma's comments that, you know, staff are physically exhausted. They are psychologically traumatised. They're mentally exhausted. We've got a significant issue with staff sickness, which exacerbates the staffing problem that we already have as well. From a longer term point of view, I think, to be honest, we probably haven't seen the worst of it yet

in terms of the effect that it has on the healthcare professions. And it certainly wouldn't surprise me if we see an increased amount of sickness and indeed staff choosing to completely leave the healthcare professions once we get through this pandemic surge. Do you have any idea what percentage of critical care nurses have been vaccinated yet? We don't have figures like that. Now, the rollout programme is obviously going ahead. I'm hearing up and down the country that lots of nurses are already receiving their vaccinations. But you can imagine that there's a huge population of healthcare professionals that all need to be vaccinated. So it's not something you can just do instantly.

There is likely to be, you know, some delay in getting all of those professionals vaccinated. And I know there's been a few issues with actual supply of the vaccine, rather than actually rolling that out to frontline staff. So that's something that obviously needs to be worked on and corrected as soon as possible, because it's vital that we protect the health of our workforce or else we simply can't run the NHS. Just finally, a message that's come in, Nicky, from one of our listeners saying,

my book club, all women in this case, have collected £10 per person to buy pizzas for nurses delivery at our local hospital. What do you make of that? You know what, that's fantastic. And believe me, the nurses will absolutely 100% appreciate it. That's what we need at the moment. I think morale is so low because everybody is so tired and so fed up.

We're equally fed up of not seeing our families, not being able to have a hug, not being able to go for coffee, not being able to meet up with friends. So anything that we can do to try and boost the morale of staff who are working unbelievably hard at the minute is fantastic. Lots of emails came in after that piece went out. John said, every week I cook my partner, who's a Macmillan cancer nurse sister, a couple of lunches and an evening meal. She's desperately tired after a year without let up in the first lockdown she ran all her units clinics solo as her nurses were sent to

covid wards i think all nurses are running out of steam but they'll keep going because they are absolute heroes john they absolutely are and vivian says please reassure that poor nurse being interviewed today that when clapping was mentioned on our local Facebook pages, the general response was never mind clapping, pay those nurses more. But the message still has to filter through to the government. We really do realise what those nurses and other NHS staff are going through. It's so hard to know how to help other than sticking to the rules. And Alison says, I'm a listener to your discussion on the NHS staff. I work in the community. Please don't let the public forget

that there are staff working out in the community trying to do routine work and support COVID discharges and deaths at home. I'm tired. My colleagues are tired. In the community, we are having the same problems as the acute staff in terms of morale and sickness we too feel there is not the public appreciation of our work well let me reassure you that there is a huge amount of appreciation for all the work that you are doing out there now congresswoman liz cheney is one of 10 republicans who crossed the floor and voted with the Democrats to impeach President Trump for the second time, something that's never happened before to a U.S. president. A key trigger was the storming of the Capitol building last week.

Here's Liz Cheney talking to Fox News from inside the building, criticizing President Trump's role in stoking the attack. We just had a violent mob assault the U.S. Capitol in an attempt to prevent us from carrying out our constitutional duty. And there's no question that the president formed the mob, the president decided the mob, the president addressed the mob, he was at the flame. And this is what America is not. There's just been, you know, it's absolutely intolerable and unacceptable. And the mob will not prevail. You know, we all have taken an oath to the Constitution. It's an oath that we carry out. It doesn't bend, you know, to mob rule. It doesn't bend to political threats. It's an oath under God, and we will carry it out. And what happened today can never happen

again in the United States. And the president needs to take responsibility for it. Emma Barnett spoke to Amy Pope, former deputy home security advisor to President Obama. She started by asking her who Liz Cheney is and whether she is the political heroine. Some are saying she is. So Liz Cheney is the daughter of the former U.S. vice president to George Bush, Dick Cheney, who who is very well known, particularly in the response to 9-11. She is the member of Congress for the state of Wyoming, conservative, very traditional conservative member of Congress. And, you know, she serves in Republican leadership. So not necessarily stand out for any sort of fiery brand of politics here, just a good Republican, frankly. A good, solid Republican who is now one of the lead figures in trying to impeach Donald Trump. She has taken a stand here, along with a handful of other Republicans in the House, to make who will see her as just echoing the sentiment of

many other Republicans who felt like this is just a different situation. There are some already saying, don't call Liz Cheney a hero here, because you've got to look at the reality here, the impact perhaps of large donors withdrawing their support for Republican lawmakers. Why hasn't she done this sooner? Why haven't her and her colleagues taken this stance sooner? Yes, I mean, that's going to be the question for the Republican Party for years to come. This is not the first time that the president has really pushed the boundaries when it comes to American norms, or even the law, really. And certainly there were calls just a year ago for people like Liz

Cheney to stand up and she didn't. So there's very mixed views on how she should be perceived. But there are others who will say when she needed to take a stand, and this one is probably the most egregious example anyone could have imagined, she did. She voted against gay marriage. She's against abortion. Is she held up as an ideal or as an icon to certain parts of American society? Or how should we view her as a woman? As a woman, she is, I think her first identity

is with the Republican Party and the conservative values. And frankly, we need women representing all parts of the policy debate. And she is certainly demonstrating that she's not being defined just by her gender, that she has her own beliefs and her own values, and she votes for them. So she does not vote for what we would see as traditional women's issues. But at the same time, she's a woman in a leadership position, and she is well respected for that. She's also now, as you say, a handful, there's only 10 of them, two of them are women who crossed the floor, as it were, voted to impeach Donald Trump for a second time. She's going to face and is already facing stiff opposition within her own

party, people who do not think this is the right time, even if they might think it's the right thing to do, but this is the right time to do this. And she'll have to stand up to those forces, won't she? She will. And it's not clear how that balance will tip. At this moment, the Republican Party is very divided. We're seeing on the Senate side, the Senate majority leader, who's a Republican, Mitch McConnell, effectively leaked to the press that he's considering moving forward the impeachment in one breath and then suggesting he won't do so anytime soon in another breath. So that suggests that the Republican Party is really weighing where it's going to come down on this. And, you know, it's not necessarily going to come

down to just a matter of principle. They're going to be looking at where their voters and how is this going to impact their elections. And someone taking a stand against Donald Trump is taking a risk. Do you feel grateful to her? I mean, of course, you're on the other side of the political divide. But when you're thinking about this moment in your country's history? I do, not because of her whole record here, but I believe that members of Congress, they do take an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. And I believe they need to take that responsibility very seriously. The founders of the republic decided that the Congress should be a check on the power of the president. And they're meant to be an independent authority. They're meant to exercise that authority separate from where the president is.

And we're not seeing a lot of that in the Republican Party over the last couple of years. They've really been captured by Donald Trump and his base. So they were 70 million also continue to vote for Donald Trump in the last election. We shouldn't forget that President Trump doesn't want to let anybody forget that, of course, but it is an important point to reflect the American public as well, not just the Republican Party. How struck are you to bring this together? Because we'll have to see how this plays out. But how struck are you that it is Liz Cheney and Nancy Pelosi, two women really, who are making the headlines at the moment with this whole process? I'm struck only that it hasn't happened sooner. You know, that there are several women in Congress and government who just get things done and who are sensible and I think can see issues from multiple sides

of the debate. I don't necessarily think that's gendered, but it has been remarkable that there hasn't been room for more women to play that role. And so I think it's a good thing to have women from both parties in the forefront of these conversations. And bottom line, it was scary. I mean, there were members of Congress huddling on the floor of the chamber, afraid for their lives. And there's something to be said for recognizing that situation as being absolutely untenable and one that shouldn't be repeated by a president of the United States. Now I have the gentle task of going from Trump to teenage crushes. Everyone remembers their first teenage

crush. The feeling of butterflies in your stomach, uncontrollable blushes, your heart rate increasing, sweaty palms. And as we age, crushes still occur, but they tend to be a guilty secret. But are there benefits to having a crush? Facebook introduced a secret crush feature in December last year, and it's claimed that crushes can induce mood-boosting chemicals. I don't mind sharing with you, for me it's Keanu for life. He was on my wall and he'll be in my heart forever, and I can almost hear a lot of you nodding in agreement. Author Deborah Waters and science journalist Helen Thompson talks about whether we should see crushes as normal, exciting and harmless, or whether it's morally questionable if you're in a loving, committed relationship.

Emma started by asking Helen, what exactly is a crush? Generally, we think of a crush as an intense but brief period of high emotion and infatuation or obsession towards another person, often but not always in the context of those feelings being unrequited or that person being unattainable in some manner. But from a neuroscience perspective, it's a little different. It's actually thought of as an uncontrollable drive that evolved millions of years ago as a survival mechanism to help respond with other people. Are they good for us? Should we see them as healthy? Because, you know, people discuss, don't they, walking a little taller, doing their hair a bit nicer,

all those sorts of things. They can improve your mood. Yeah, well, when we form a crush, we see these ancient areas of the brain kick in. We experience these great jolts of dopamine and the feel-good reward chemicals that give us that feeling of intense pleasure. And so, of course, it feels good to have a crush.

Where you then take those feelings and how that develops and what comes of that is probably where you then stray into a territory of whether it's good or bad. We'll bring Debra in at this point. Debra, you won the Bridport Short Story Competition last year, we were saying, with Ohalulu, a highly fictionised story about your experiences of an adult crush. And was it a secret from those around you? Yes, because I think fundamentally crushes belong in the realm of fantasy. And I knew being an adult and having some control over my emotions,

that it was just a form of escapism for me. And I didn't really want to share it. It was like my sort of personal little private joy. And it was also a little bit embarrassing. You don't, as a grown woman and a mother, you don't want to admit to crushes that make you sound like you're 12 years old. We'll come back to that thought in a moment.

Let's hear a short excerpt of the story now. You meet him in October. You're wearing jeans, a red jumper, flat boots. It's the last time you dress down. You like his tree-like height and his hair. Is it auburn? Blonde? You're not sure why, but this charms you. When you realise you're at least a decade older than him, you head to the toilet and reapply your makeup. At the bar, you down Sauvignon Blanc until the booze takes over your tongue. When his answers turn circumspect, equivocal, you feel like a nosy ant. You may as well ask him what he wants to be when he grows up.

But he doesn't move seats. You like your life. Your terrace with its fitful plumbing. Your white dog and medium-sized family car. You're comfortably numb. Think this is a good thing. As days pass your mind, normally crammed with schoolbooks and whitewashes and grocery dashes, fills with him.

It's your imagination, but it's palpable. When you cook, he's a hologram leaning against the fridge, describing his day. You reply hilariously, of course. When you shower, he's pressed against your back, his hand cupping the baby-made curve of your stomach. Gosh, that's taken me right into that. What a powerful piece of writing. Thank you. Your husband's not read it, is that right?

Yes, but that was my choice. Because it's highly fictionalised, it's very embellished and I didn't want him to not be able to separate fact from fiction. But, you know, I'm very happily married. I've got a great relationship with my husband. But, you know, I'm very happily married. I've got a great relationship with my husband. Though, you know, I'm a writer and I write about the things that make me feel. And I also realise it wasn't something

that's written about much, but it is embellished to sort of give it more sort of gravitas. Because it comes from a small seed when you were on a creative writing course. Is that right? Something you felt a little of. Because some people getting in touch to say they feel guilty if they were to say anything about it, like it is unfaithful in some way.

Yeah, I can see why people think that. But there's a huge difference between a crush and an affair. Like Helen was saying, it's usually directed at someone who's unsuitable or unobtainable if they were obtainable you'd be going down the realms of something more physical or uh like an actual relationship but that was never my intention with any of the questions I've ever had that's not what I wanted I'm very happy with what I've got it's more a form of um escape and also questions can help you work things out in your head about your own relationship. We can have a little dialogue with of what you should perhaps take from this, is it that maybe you haven't got everything you needed from the relationship you're in and the crush satisfies

another part of you or a different part of you haven't really explored? I think that's a hard question to answer. I think it was interesting that Deborah said that it was something she was a bit embarrassed about having, that it was something that a 15 year old you know would have but actually uh the what happens in the brain when you have a crush is something that you can experience at any age and it's actually like i said this uncontrollable drive that comes from a part of the brain that is evolutionarily ancient and um when you compare the brains of someone who are having a crush or in the first throes of lust in a new relationship, we see a lot of similarities between their brain and people who have drug addictions or have OCD. And it's really interesting. We see this in activity where we have

this part of the brain that's creating this euphoria and these cravings and this need to get a hit like a drug addict would need to get a hit but we're getting that hit from this person this seeing this person or getting a text from them and at the same time we see a drop in serotonin in the brain which is a chemical that helps us regulate our mood kind of gives us our rationality it regulates our appetites it helps us sleep it controls our anxiety and our sexual desires. And it's kind of like we see the brain, the rational part of the brain actually lift its brake upon these more basic drives. And so it's kind of no wonder that we act so strangely and erratically and we feel

guilty when we have a crush on someone. But in fact, it's actually perhaps not something that we can control and we shouldn't be embarrassed about. Deborah, just finally to you, do you think it should stay taboo or do you think we should talk about it more? Or is it one of those things that should stay private? I just think it depends on the individual and it depends what needs aren't being met. And I think there is a misconception that if you have a crush on someone, it's some sort of sexual, emotional needs that aren't met. Whereas for me, it was very much to do with the fact that I was middle-aged. I was having a bit of a midlife crisis.

I was drawn to things I missed, like people that were younger than me. I missed their freedom and their youth. And so it's a lot more complex than just fancying somebody. Turns out there's lots of you with secret crushes out there. Deb got in touch to say, age 54, and I've always had a crush on Robbie Williams since his Take That days. I used to tell my children that if he ever met me, we'd obviously run away together and that they'd have to go and live with their nana. Never know, Deb, might happen. And Maggie has been in touch with a very interesting story.

She says, I walk my dogs in a beautiful meadow close to where I live. A very good looking man with a little lurcher dog used to walk there too. We're already invested in this story, aren't we? I got a big crush on him that lasted for a couple of years. And in that time, we got talking about our dogs. And if we met up, we'd walk together, even though my dog didn't like his at all. I've never been a religious person and I've lived a pretty close to the edge dodgy life. I was telling a friend of mine about my crush when she told me the man I had a very big crush on was the local Baptist pastor. It's the hot priest. August 2020, he'd moved to a small flat close by. I plucked

up the courage to call him one evening and as I walked into his flat, my heart beating fast, steady on, it's getting racy, he gently put his arms around me and kissed me. I was shaking and my crush had been totally fulfilled. We married on December the 5th at Tewkesbury Appie Church. What a great story. Now Ella Adu, Kissy Deborah, was just nine years old when she died in 2013. She had a rare and severe form of asthma and lived 25 metres from the South Circular, one of London's busiest roads. An inquest in December saw Ella become the first person in the UK to have air pollution listed as one of the causes of death. This concluded a seven-year battle by her mother and Woman's Hour powerlister, Rosamund, to find out why her daughter died. Anjali Raman-Middleton is 17 years old and went to primary school with Ella. She co-founded Choked Up with three other teenagers to lobby against the pollution that contributed to Ella's

death. I remember understanding that Ella had asthma, so I would see her in the playground and she would have her asthma pump but it was it was never something that I really paid much attention to because there were lots of other children in my year who had asthma and it was kind of a background until suddenly it wasn't and I was told that she had died and that was something that I think took everyone by shock because it was just so sudden and I had seen her a few days before and she had seemed completely fine completely normal and yeah it was it was a shock to everyone. And how did the so how did the community respond to the event?

Well at first there was just there was a lot of sympathy for her family and a lot of understanding. But then this slowly changed into anger when we found out that it could have been related to air pollution. And now it's been proved that it was. So once we, because that was something that kind of developed gradually. We didn't know that at the beginning when she had died. We found that out a couple of years after. And it's obviously something stayed with you because you're 17 now and you formed Choked Up. Tell me about Choked Up. Tell me how it came about and what you're campaigning for. So Choked Up was formed when I joined Advocacy Academy, which is a group that lets young people campaign on issues that are close to their hearts and meet other people who feel the same.

So there I met the other co-founders of the campaign and all of us are equally passionate about air pollution. We all live in polluted areas ourselves. This is an issue that's really close to our hearts and our main goals are to change clean air legislation to make it stronger so it actually protects people, because currently it is so weak. You wouldn't believe it. We also want to raise awareness for the intersectionality of this issue. Yeah, you describe yourselves as a group of brown and black teenagers who want the right to breathe clean air, to be made law. Why is it important for you to point out your ethnicities? Well, it has been proven that people of colour are disproportionately affected by air pollution. And poorer communities generally have worse air.

And obviously this disproportionately affects people of colour. And you can see this in the case of Ella as well. It's no coincidence that she was a black girl herself. It's no coincidence that the area she lives in is a very ethnically diverse area. And name the other young women who were involved with you. Because you're all quite remarkable, all three of you. So tell me about the other the other young women who are involved with you let's um because you you're all quite remarkable all three of you so tell me about the other two who are involved

um so the other um people involved in this campaign are um destiny who campaigns about this issue because her younger sister has asthma and she has seen the effects it has on her family. Nialeti who lives in a polluted area herself and sees the effects that this has on her community and Kaydeen who also lives in a polluted area and understands this issue. And you grew up less than five minutes from the South Circular so what was it like living so close to that road? Well, it was, I would walk along it every day, not as long, not for as long as Ella did, but for about 10 minutes. And you can see the pollution, you could see it coming off the cars, you can still see it today. And looking back, I wonder what kind of effect that has had on my lung. And whilst I can't see it right now, because I don't

have any underlying health conditions, I'm not particularly vulnerable myself. I wonder if it will have any impacts on me in the future. And we've got a statement from the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and from the government. They say our thoughts remain with Ella's family and friends. We're delivering a 3.8 billion plan to clean up transport, tackle NO2 pollution, going further in protecting communities from air pollution, particularly PM2.5 pollution, which we know is particularly harmful to people's health. Through our landmark Environment Bill, we're also setting ambitious new air quality targets with a primary focus on reducing public health impacts. Are they doing enough fast enough for you, Anjali? No they are not and I know they talk

about the environment bill and I agree this is a remarkable opportunity for them to put very clear clean air targets into law but I personally do not feel and everyone at Choked Up feels that these targets aren't strong enough and the government simply must do more. I'm always amazed at how remarkable the younger generation are and how switched on you are when it comes to particularly environmental issues. Tell us what we can do practically to just help. So one thing that you can do is do individual actions yourself. So try and drive less.

I know that may be hard during this time because public transport and COVID do not mix well. But if you can try and cycle but if you can try and cycle if you can try and walk something else you can do is email your MP and bring this to their attention. Now an investigation by Rachel Stonehouse for BBC Newsbeat and 100 Women found that virginity tests are being offered at British medical clinics for between £150 to £300. The tests involve a vaginal examination to see if a woman's hymen is still intact and are considered a violation of human rights by both the United Nations and the World Health Organisation. And in 2019, US rapper T.I. sparked outrage after admitting during a podcast he took his daughter

for a virginity test every year. Well, Richard Holden, MP for North West Durham, heard the piece and introduced the Virginity Testing Prohibition Bill in the House of Commons in December. The second reading was due to take place on Friday, but can't now due to COVID numbers in London. I was joined by Richard Holden, MP,

Natasha Rattou, Director of Karma Nirvana, a national charity helpline for honour-based abuse and forced marriage, and Dr Naomi into it, seeing that WHO report, which shows there's absolutely no scientific basis for this, what's going on, and also the impact it can have on people, psychological impact, going through for many years afterwards, after these tests have been conducted. I just couldn't quite believe it, that this practice was still going on in the UK today. It sounds like something, you know, from the Middle Ages, really.'ve also managed to get it knocked together as an amendment for a government bill so

if we can't get it through in the private members bill i'll make sure it's attached to a government bill in government time as well and what are you calling for exactly so calling for it to be banned uh and i think the think the entire issue around this is that people shouldn't be, these things aren't, have got no basis in scientific fact, and yet people are being charged them. So you can, and also,

I think the driving force behind it, though, is the fact that women and young girls are being subjected to this. It smacks of, you know, very, you know, very old ideas of what a woman should be, some form of possession of a man, that it's all about her purity, that she has no rights herself. And I think that's the reason I've been pushing so hard on it, because I think it just is something that we cannot allow in modern Britain. I'm going to bring Natasha in now from the charity Karma Nirvana.

Your reaction to what Richard's trying to do, Natasha? We absolutely support the bill. And just to echo what Richard has said, this is about the control of women and girls' bodies. This is absolutely what it is about. And it's rooted in social and cultural norms that emphasise that it's okay and it's acceptable to have that degree of control. The fact that women and girls are being made to prove their modesty or their innocence in this day and age just shows that we've got so much more work to do on tackling gender and power inequalities. And that's a huge factor as to why we're supporting the bill because we feel that it will help us to get that momentum

in making those sorts of changes that we we need to see in society. How much do we know about this practice? How widespread is it? It's very hidden. People do contact our organisation to talk about it but they talk about it in passing. Very often they're at a point of crisis where they want to leave and they talk about it in a historical context. Like what? What do they say to you? So we've had girls' contacts to say that they've been seen by elders in the community with a boy and they're now being asked to prove that they are a virgin.

We've had women and girls that are due to get married and they know that they're not a virgin and they're petrified about their future husbands finding out that they're not. And the consequences that this will have not only upon themselves but upon their family and their status to the degree where they're strategizing how they can prove their aversion by buying fake capsules to prove that they bled on consummation of the marriage. These are the lengths that some women and girls are having to go to and that's why we support the bill, because we need to challenge those attitudes, I think,

that are out there in the society that people have, but also the women and girls that think that it's OK for this to happen, that it's OK for their families to have that degree of control. Well, we can hear from a story of one young woman, 19-year-old Alma, but the story obviously has been revoiced to protect her identity. Let's have a listen. I had a very emotionally abusive relationship with my parents who wanted me to have an arranged marriage. One day an elder from the community saw me out with my friends and said to my mum that one

of the boys in the group was my boyfriend. There were lots of rumours in that community about it. My parents and the family of the man they wanted me to marry said I had to have a virginity test to prove that I was still a virgin so the marriage could go ahead. I was scared and I really didn't understand what it meant. I felt like running away was my only option. So that's what I did. Natasha, are the authorities sometimes guilty of not taking these issues seriously enough, as was the case with FGM and honour-based violence, because they see them as some kind of cultural issue? I think the fact that we haven't seen it in the government's Borg strategy today shows that I don't think it is on government's radar at all. But I think we have a real opportunity because there is a Home Office consultation open at the moment where we

can influence what the future strategy will look like. So I think there's a real opportunity on their radars. I think the fact that it is so hidden hasn't helped. Great. I'm going to bring Dr Naomi Crouch in on this. I mean, Naomi, what is your view on virginity tests? Well, it has no medical concept itself is a nonsense. There's no way of being able to tell if a woman or an adolescent has had any penetrative sexual intercourse at all.

So not only is it intrusive, discriminatory and a form of abuse, but it also makes no sense. So it's a sham? It's a sham. It's a sham. It has nothing at all that can be proved. I think we should talk biology. I would like you to describe and explain exactly what the hymen is and how reliable, as you said, it is or isn't an indicator of virginity.

Well, we found out that it isn't. So the hymen's a piece of skin that's a centimeter or two just inside the vagina and it sort of represents where the upper vagina and the lower bit of the vagina join together when we were all developing inside our mums and it dissolves a little bit and it leaves sort of like a polo ring really of tissue and that can be stretched on sexual activity but it also can be stretched and damaged with other activities as well so that could be horse riding or occasionally using tampons so for all sorts of reasons then it's just a it's no reliable indicator at all of whether

any sexual activity has taken place. Richard I mean what what will be the outcome when if this when this bill goes through? Will it be a prison sentence for anybody who's continuing to do this? I mean, what will happen following on from it? Are you going to call for more education? I think the key thing is a bit like what Natasha was just saying before, is that one of the reasons we don't have evidence on this is because it's legal at the moment. So there's nobody's tracking whether or not these are taking place because it's a legal procedure and as natasha said you know people

mention this in passing generally way down the line when things have got much more serious in terms of honor-based violence so i think it's it's part of a panoply of things that we have to do to work against violence against women this wouldn't this wouldn't still be legal if it was something that was done to men. Right? You know, this is, that would have been changed a long time ago. The fact that it's something that is just done to women, like FGM, is just crazy.

And, you know, that's why it's so important that we do it. Down the line, prison sentences. Well, I think I've put a notional one of up to 12 months in my bill. I mean, that's something which will get discussed much more extensively. It's a committee stage. But I think that, you know, we've got to get to a position where we're not allowing fake science to be peddled by doctors to make money out of people,

and at the same time allowing abuse of women and girls to continue. Now for a bit of magic. This weekend marks 100 years since magician P.T. Selbit first performed the magic trick of sawing a woman in half. The illusion came at the time of the suffrage movement and shocked audiences. It typically involves a woman in a box being cut in two, usually by a male magician. Now in 1921, when Christabel Pankhurst advertised in a

newspaper for remunerative non-political work, Selbit audaciously invited her to be his assistant and to be sawn in two. Unsurprisingly, she declined his offer. So what does it feel like then and how does it work? Debbie McGee is a performer, dancer and magician's assistant, known for her work with her late partner and magician Paul Daniels. Naomi Paxton is a performer and academic of Suffrage Theatre at the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama. Emma started by asking Debbie McGee what it felt like to be sawn in half. It's the noise, actually, depending on... You know, I've been sawn in half sawn through because the very first one that

was 1921 was actually sawing through a woman and that's where the saw goes right through you and then the boxes are pulled apart and you can actually see the assistant's body in the middle and so um sawing in half is when they saw right through it and then they can split both halves. So that's the difference. But it's noisy. It's noisy. It's like being at the dentist. Yeah, possibly worse. But you've really, as the woman, you're doing such hard work, aren't you? Because you've got to contort your body. Sometimes. You're not going to. I'm taking too much away.

I knew you weren't going to, come on. But you have, what I say as a magician's assistant, you've really got to be able to focus and concentrate because usually whatever you're doing, you know, timing is everything. Yes. And that's why Paul and I created such a good team because he always said I could instinctively feel things, you know, of when to go or whatever, even if it was just walking on stage. But of course, it's far more important when you're

in the middle of being sawn in half. But of course, you know, soaring through a woman was the first one. And all of that came about because before the 1920s, of course, especially through Victorian and Edwardian times, you know, the clothes that women wore were huge. So there's no way you could have been put in a box and sewn in half easily, it would have had to have been a big box. And actually, in those days, men were far more used as assistants than women, they use both. It wasn't ever the glamorous magician's assistant, which is why when people say, oh, it's all about the magician and not the assistant. But actually, you know, going back a long way before, you know, over 100 years ago, men were put in and not sawn in half in those days, but other illusions.

It was quite gory, wasn't it, as well in the early days? They liked to make much of it. Yeah. And, you know, of course, in the 20s, when the clothes became, you know, more silk and smaller, is why they could chop you up either, sawing, obviously, women in half, but you could also be, you know, sawn into three pieces or five pieces or seven pieces or whatever. But yeah, going back, they, you know, they liked the horror aspect of it and putting people in distress.

But if you think back to the silent movies, women were, it was always the woman that was tied up to the railway track or running away screaming. But I also, this is only a personal opinion, is I also think that it kind of grew as the glamorous assistant because if a woman is having something horrible done to her you know men want to you know animal instinct want to protect you and women watching that woman want to protect you so I think it's you know it's much more impactive if you're sawing a woman in half than a man. I don't think you've got quite so much sympathy. Did you ever feel it was, no, that's a very interesting thing to think about, but did you ever feel it was reductive to you in any way to be the glamorous assistant or be the person being needed to be saved or however you could term it?

No, I always thought it was just another form of entertainment. And, you know, that the assistant's role was to, if you, as a magician's assistant, if you're doing your job well, people should just think you're a glamorous girl standing there. You know, life is changing. Of course, there's loads of lady magicians now and I do some magic myself. But, you know, going back 20 years, you know, it was all about showgirls and showing women off. And you'd get more, a bigger audience because, you know, men do like seeing women looking glamorous. Did Paul ever talk to you when he was sawing you in half? Did you ever have chats? I'm trying to imagine the conversations when these sorts of things are going on or perhaps it's too loud. No, we did. Never about anything to do with, you know, what we were having for dinner. So we're much more professional than that. But one little story is, is there was a very famous singer called Frankie Vaughan. And Paul and I agreed to do an illusion that was like a soaring for a friend for his birthday party. And Frankie Vaughan and his wife Stella were sitting very close to the front, you know, and it was like dinner table situation, a cabaret, we were in the

middle of the floor. Well, because it was for a friend, we didn't bother rehearsing it. We hadn't done it for ages. But you know, we knew we could do it. You know, Paul and I had worked together then for over 30 years. So it was kind of, you just felt it. But actually, of course, because we hadn't actually rehearsed it, there was one bit where Paul, all I'll say without giving too much away, Paul put a sword through at a time when he shouldn't have. And I was going, stop it, what on earth are you getting up to?

And Frankie and Stella could hear us. Hang on, I can't believe I'm going to ask this, but where did Paul Daniels put his sword? That remains to be a secret. Debbie, stay with me there. I've got to get in Naomi Paxton on this. We're going to talk about an element of this in terms of the history, Naomi, as I mentioned there, about Christabel Pankhurst and how she fitted into this.

I'm not quite sure how anyone can follow what we've just heard there, but you are going to because why on earth did the magician think that the daughter of the suffragette leader might be up for this? I think it's an amazing and amazing and very bold and entrepreneurial move of his. Christabel at that time was 41 and had found herself out of work. She'd stood for election twice unsuccessfully and founded a women's party and that had folded. And rather cheekily, she put this advertisement in the Times, as you said, saying that she was available for non-political, renumerative work.

And she got a number of offers. So film studios contacted her. But then Percy Selbit contacted her and made a big show of this. This was in the press a lot, that he'd offered her £5 a show or £20 a week. I think £5 a show is probably a better deal, to come and be sawn in half at Finsbury Park Empire. And it's, I mean, she was,

Christopher Pankhurst, before the First World War, had really been one of the most notorious suffragette leaders. Her and her mother ran the WSU. She'd been a waxwork in Madame Tussauds, you know, in her mid-twenties. She was the kind of object of lots of playful slash ghoulish slash offensive things in popular entertainment, in pantomimes, in reviews. I can imagine that Salvat would have thought, you know what, this will be a great thing.

Let's revive the flagging career of this woman. And let's finally give the anti-suffragists the chance to see her being cut in half. Well, that was it. I was going to say there would have been that element to it, the people who were against women getting the vote. That's why it was savvy as well, wasn't it? And I wonder what you make of the women in this position, in these performances. What do you make of that?

Well, it's interesting. It's like Debbie says, I mean, I've been an assistant as well and been sawn in half as well, not on the same scale. Who hasn't been on this conversation? I mean, accept me. And when you're doing doing it when you're part of a double act you're presenting a show you are working together and you are doing quite a lot of the work that needs to be done when you're doing large scale illusions so it's the perception of it is very different I think um but when one one takes it if you look at kind of early or late Victorian um early Edward for example and magic tricks on

film often using film they were using women as assistants and they're often sort of things over their head and things disappearing and women disappearing and then reappearing as skeletons and and maybe on stage there were male assistants and child assistants but certainly that um that kind of visual culture of women being disappeared or repressed or stopped or restrained was coming in on a much wider scale in terms of film and then as we get later into the 20th century really is the woman who becomes the one who is again and again chopped in half or displaced in different ways and yes men do put themselves in danger you know there's escapology there are bullet catches there are all sorts of things but but the woman doesn't seem to the audience to have any agency in that situation.

And that that kind of feeds into a wider culture, particularly in Christopher Pankhurst's case. So I would read it as a slightly kind of voyeuristic punishing. So Christopher Pankhurst is a spinster. She has rumours about her sexuality. She's trained as a lawyer, but not allowed to practice. So there's a kind of a punishing of this perception of a service or a use she she didn't go for it and uh just to clarify but what an interesting part of history that would have been naomi thank you for bringing that to life for us debbie mcgee lovely to talk to you and i've got one quick little very quick relates to naomi's because pt selbit who asked uh mrs pankhurst to get in the soaring in half, was very entrepreneurial. And so was Paul. And so many years later, Paul Daniels, for a Royal

Variety performance for the Queen Mum, wrote to Prince Charles to say, would you come and get an illusion, you know, for your mum? And he wrote back and said, you know, sorry, the security won't let me. And on the night, Princess Diana said to Paul, oh, I'm so sorry that my husband couldn't help you with your trick. So there you go. And maybe we'll never find out where Paul put his sword. On Monday's show, New Research for Woman's Hour has found more and more aesthetic doctors and nurses are treating women for mistakes made injecting fillers by untrained practitioners. Do join Emma, Monday morning, 10am. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.