Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour - Holly Humberstone, #metoo & Imelda Staunton as the Queen

Episode Date: January 9, 2021

We have music and chat from singer-songwriter Holly Humberstone who has been named as runner up of the BBC Sound of 2021.Helen Lewis, staff writer at the Atlantic and Melissa Melewski lecturer in American politics at The University of Sussex discuss the role women played in this week’s violent protest when the Capitol building in Washington was stormed by Trump Supporters.We hear from Hannah who has been ghosted by her mum.We discuss the unintended consequences both positive and negative of the #metoo movement with Gudrun Young, a defence barrister and Sarah Green, Director of End Violence Against Women.And we have a special message from Her Majesty the Queen and the actor Imelda Staunton tells us about her latest role playing the Queen on television.Presenter: Andrea Catherwood Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. In a moment, we'll discuss the role women played in the scenes of violence at Capitol Hill in Washington this week. We'll hear some of the unintended consequences of the MeToo movement, including the ongoing issue of the rape myth. So men making the question, oh, I don't know if I can give you a hug now, including the ongoing issue of the rape myth. So men making the question,

oh, I don't know if I can give you a hug now, or you've ruined kind of online dating with your accusations, is about turning the question back to, oh, it's about me and what I can and can't do. But actually something much bigger is at stake. We'll hear what it's like to be ghosted by your mum. And Imelda Staunton, the latest actress to play the Queen on The Crown, on her role at the Queen's 90th birthday celebrations.

I sang a song while a troop of Shetland ponies were doing a Grand National in front of me. So, you know, Kylie sang to White Stallions, Shirley Bassey with these gorgeous, great, serious songs, and me with Shetland Ponies. The world looked on in horror on Wednesday in what has been described as an act of domestic terrorism. As thousands of President Trump's supporters ransacked Congress and stormed the Capitol building in Washington, D.C. Their aim to bring a violent halt to the formal confirmation of his election defeat. Well, earlier in the day, Trump roused his followers to fight for him. And his lawyer, the former mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani, said, let's have trial by combat. The images show a riot dominated and led by gun-toting, animal-skin-wearing men. But women were there. Indeed, one woman was shot dead.

And women are part of the mass online movement, which has led to this action called Stop the Steal. Emma talked to Helen Lewis, staff writer at The Atlantic and author of the book Difficult Women, and to Melissa Malewski, lecturer in American politics at the University of Sussex. How did she feel when she saw what was unfolding in the US Capitol on Wednesday? Honestly, I woke up this morning and I was completely shocked at the images. And I think that you can read about what's going on, but to actually see images of kind of the floor of the Senate chamber where the senators were meeting to kind of talk about the election, to see protesters in there, to see debris all over the floors of Congress, to see offices with papers scattered.

It was really a very kind of mind boggling and very disheartening picture of American democracy today. And domestic terrorism, as one person has put it. I mean, would you go that far? Absolutely. Yes, I would. I think that that's very accurate. I think there were weapons involved. People were killed. I think that's a good description of it. We'll come back to you in a moment. Helen, let me bring you in on this. Good morning. Morning. I was describing those images, and there are women clearly in the scene, but not perhaps at the forefront of it. What would you say, first of all, to that,

that some people may, especially when they hear that language by Rudy Giuliani saying, let's have trial by combat, think in some way, this is the further weaponising of masculinity by Donald Trump? Well, your description there about women being present, but not in charge of it is also a pretty good description of most far right white nationalist movements. And if you look at the pictures, what's really interesting about them is that what has happened in America is that an existing militia culture, you know, there were people that there was someone there in a Camp Auschwitz jumper, for example, you know, people there with white nationalist symbols, but accompanied by a much newer conspiracy theory grafted onto that, which is QAnon. And the woman who died, for example, had posted QAnon slogans on her Twitter feed,

where we go one, we go all, the coming storm. And these will be things that hopefully will make no sense to, well, I don't say hopefully, but to a lot of listeners will make no sense because this is an extremely online movement. It's basically a huge multiplayer role playing game where you get pronouncements from this mysterious figure called Q that everybody has to try and interpret. But they've coalesced around the idea that the election was stolen. And and this is what's really worrying, that they've been indulged by mainstream figures. Donald Trump himself has has dallied with this conspiracy theory. And the point of view of why women are so involved in it is, traditionally, the far right has been very sexist, very anti-feminist. That's a gateway to it, saying, we're going to restore traditional ideals of masculinity. Men can be really violent. You can be a patriarch again. You can have your

honour back. But what's happened with QAnon is there's a big strand of it running through, which is ostensibly in opposition to child abuse. The idea that there is huge amounts of paedophile child trafficking going on across America endorsed by the Democratic Party. Now, to you and me, this sounds nuts, but there are people to whom this is absolutely the biggest issue that is happening in America. They are, in their minds, stopping children from being abused. And that is a message that is very powerful with the kind of suburban mothers who would not want to attend a white nationalist rally. So that's perhaps how this has changed in that way. Thank you for explaining QAnon. As you say, most people will not have got to grips with it and perhaps how women have been

drawn into it. Melissa, when you hear that and you think about the role of women in getting Trump to the White House and also perhaps the role they're playing as Helen describes, what do you say to that as an American woman? I think that there's a, as a historian, I think that there's a long history of white women being involved in upholding white supremacy. And I think that you really see it in the 19th century. You see it during the aftermath of the civil rights movement. You see it during the war on drugs. And so I think really in many ways, white women in particular have been very involved in this project of white supremacy all along.

Helen, do you see where you were talking there about men leading and dominating this. Do you see women as, I don't know, having less agency in this? Or how do you view them in the context of this world that you've come to understand? I think because it's such a complicated mash of several different things, different women have different motivations and different levels of engagement. There are some people who are followers of QAnon who, you know, dip into it on a Facebook group. they don't realise that they're part of something that is grafted onto a sort of fundamentally anti-democratic racist project. But there have always been women in the far right movement who have, you know, played that classic kind of anti-feminist role saying, I think women are happier at home. I think women, you know, kinder Kircher Kusher, right? This idea that children,

the home, you know, those are women's roles in life. And if you're a woman who is prepared to say that is women's highest calling in life, then guess what? You can get a lot of fame and attention as a white woman by saying those things in the far right movement. And some women have gleefully seized those opportunities. And the role of the politicians as well, Helen, you know, looking at what some of the senators, for instance, the outgoing Senator Kelly Loeffler. Tell us about her role in last night. I mean, she's been going for it in terms of inciting, you could say, the crowds. Well, I think what's happened is that some members and not all members of the Republican Party have ridden the tiger and have now realised that the tiger is running around biting people.

And as you say, the former senator from Georgia, actually dismissed from office yesterday by the electors in Georgia, who elected their first African-American senator, you know, have now realised that it doesn't, it's not a good look to be supporting someone who is now, let's be honest, we're talking about someone who endorsed an armed militia raiding democratic institutions. That is essentially fascism at this point. So there are some people who are still clinging on to the Trump bandwagon. Ted Cruz, one of his former primary opponents, was still voting yesterday to say the election results shouldn't be certified. But there are other people in the party who are recent converts to embarrassment. And there are other people in the party like

Mitt Romney, who's the only Republican senator to vote to impeach Donald Trump, who have essentially broken with the structures of their party to say, this guy is really dangerous and we have to take it seriously. He's not a conventional politician at this point. He's a demagogue and a would-be authoritarian. We're only saved from his authoritarianism by his fundamental laziness and lack of coordination. Difficult Women is the title of your book, Helen. Some of these people will see themselves as difficult women. What do you make of the idea that women being thugs, as it were, is another part of equality? Women being just as, in inverted commas, bad as men?

Yes, it's not a glass ceiling that I'm particularly keen for women to break. It has to be said. But I think what you say is really important. You have to try and understand that people that you see as villains cast themselves as the heroes in their own story. And to the mums who support QAnon, you know, they are the only thing standing against children being kidnapped and raped. You know, that is a very powerful story to tell yourself. And if you don't understand the motivations of people, that's not to excuse them. But you have to understand that these people think that they are crusading for justice. It's just that they

are doing it in the service of a lie that they have come to believe. Melissa, the women around Donald Trump then, we know that there were some resignations yesterday, not least press secretary, also the assistant to the First Lady giving in her notice, people who have been, of course, very loyal to the president. Ivanka, his daughter, who has played several roles during this presidency,

also retracted her tweet, one of the tweets around these individuals being patriots. What do you make of their role, Melissa? Well, I think the case of Ivanka Trump is particularly interesting. As you said, she wrote a tweet yesterday that called the protesters patriots. She was saying, telling them to kind of stop the violence, but still kind of called them patriots and got a lot of criticism for doing that. And then afterwards deleted the tweet. And I think she is very has been very kind of complicit in Trump's project all along. In some ways, she has been serving kind of as a go-between

between Trump and women in America, particularly conservative women. And so I think she has been someone that many kind of women, conservative women, particularly white women, have looked up to. And I think she is very complicit in what has happened. And I would also note that the outgoing Senator Kelly Loeffler, who we've just been talking about, really kind of rode to fame, got a great deal of political

momentum from Trumpism and from calling the African-American candidate for senator radical again and again. And so she was very much part of this project also of saying that the election had been stolen again and again. So I think this was not just a project of men. Many, many white conservative women were involved as well. Melissa Malewski and Helen Lewis. Now, we've talked about ghosting before on Woman's Hour, usually in the context of relationships where a partner or prospective partner just suddenly disappears and cuts off all communication. It's brutal, puzzling and breathtaking. But imagine if your own mother cut you off without a word of explanation.

This happened to Hannah, who wrote to us with her story and wanted to lift the silence around this. She told Emma when she last saw her mum. Any communication at all, that would be about seven years ago now. Seeing her in person would be about eight years ago. So it's been some time, which is why I feel, I think, able to talk about it now, if I'm honest with you. But yeah, it's been some years. And what was the last contact?

So I'll prefix that specific answer with what happened, because it will make more sense, that she told us that if we had children, she would disown us. And so I always... This is you and your brother? Yes, I have a twin brother who's brilliant. And we were, yeah, always told there was this sort of mantra in the house, if you have children, I'll disown you.

And it was said so frequently. I didn't think it was particularly odd, which I appreciate in retrospect is bizarre. So it was when I was pregnant that the communication really went from sort of Skype calls and emails and she refused to give me her new phone number. So it reduced down to Skype calls and emails. I sent her an email to say i've i've had a child you're you know a grandchild of yours i had a bit of a difficult labor so i was looking for a bit of maternal support i guess which was a bit misplaced and um she just never ever ever responded and that was it i'd had a miscarriage previously and the um the fact i'd been pregnant and went

against her wishes the communication really stopped in terms of sort of being any... But she'd had two children. Why was she so against you having children? Yeah, I mean, I can't offer an explanation because it's as confusing to me as it is to you. I mean, we were just always told to never have children. We were told children were a burden. We were told we'd ruined her life.

And so the sort of status quo in the household is my children won't have children. That's just the way it was. And I think, I mean, she had me in the 80s. I suspect it was societal pressure that was the reason that she gave in and had children in the end. She was quite old when she had me for the time. I mean, that's a taboo in itself to perhaps admit

and then obviously very cruel in some ways, if you don't mind me saying, to say to you, you know, I didn't want my children and I seem like I regret it in some ways, so you better not make the same mistake. Yeah, well, it's incredibly damaging. It's the ultimate rejection for your own mother who, you know, the maternal narrative is

that they love you unconditionally. And I have two boys now and I do love them unconditionally thank goodness but I think that yeah it's incredibly damaging it's um but because it has been the ultimate rejection the the only sort of positive I can draw from it really is I've sort of been through the worst so I've been rejected by her and have you have you? Have you said, mum, you know, I know you told her you'd had your child, but come on, I want to talk to you. So I spent most of my life really trying. I, you know, I passed the 11 plus and got into a grammar school

to try and make her proud. I went to university to try and make her proud. I joined the RAF as an officer to try and make her proud. I'm proud already. Oh, thanks very much. I married a really nice guy. He's ever so handsome. He's six foot two.

He's an airline pilot. He's wonderful. I tried everything. And there was just no moving that woman from apathy towards us, really. It's the same with my twin brother. And I think that's why I've been able to get through it. He's been through the exact same experience. He's very successful.

He's got two wonderful children. And I think that, yeah, it is the ultimate rejection. And you get through it as best you can, really. And your dad, he's still around. Is that right? Yeah, they're still together. And I mean, my focus is on her because she was sort of the nastiest to me. He was more passive in the relationship, really.

But they're still together. I believe they're still alive um you don't you don't know well I'm not sure what mechanism there would be in place for informing me really I've googled the local crematorium to see if they're deceased or not they didn't live particularly healthy lives um but I haven't seen their names um so I'm not 100% sure if they're alive or dead. But my husband actually had to go to the house about four years ago, the last known address to pick up things like GCSE certificates, my RAF commission scroll, just things they had. And they were there, they were alive. They didn't ask after me, he got the items covered in mould, but recoverable and left and it was very bizarre. I want to say that you've

you've elicited a response. I mean, there's messages coming in one has saying she's not alone, you're not alone on this. Another one, my sister ghosted me gone, not a word. Why did you want to talk about this? I think that the silence has tormented me a bit. And I felt I felt really ashamed. I felt like it was it was a reflection on me and whenever you say to people you know because there are implications when your mother goes you've like when people take a medical health um you know a questionnaire for when you have children and they ask about your mother or people say you're going to the kids going to the grandparents for Christmas and you sort of I never know what to say and so it's sort of an antidote to that I think I'm not ashamed anymore it's happened and furthermore

it's really helped me to share it because I was on a podcast a few months ago sharing it and people got in touch and it happened to them and I felt very alien and like I said ashamed and so the way to sort of clear that stigma I think is talking about it so selfishly it's helped me a lot to talk about it. Do you have to in your mind put it that she's she's gone that she's dead is that how you have to process it? Yeah so I've definitely been through a bereavement I had had a bit of therapy which helped and I think that's fairly crucial but yeah I've I've I it was really really hard because my sort of raison d'etre for living, my motivation for everything, because I've really tried to be successful, I've tried to do things, was to make this woman proud, this woman that just really didn't show me much love at all. And so I think that it's super hard to, yeah, sorry, I'm getting a bit emotional there, but it's super It's okay. Yeah, it's super hard to move on from, but... I was going to ask, what have you told your children?

Yeah, so that's quite a difficult question because we try and be honest with them and they're three and six, so they're starting to realise. We've just, I try not to burden them because it's not their issue. It's certainly not their fault. And so I've been honest and I've said that, you know, grandma and grandpa aren't very nice people and we probably won't see them and for now that's enough but I know the questions will come and I'm just going to try and be as honest as I can um if she's in any way listening and we've got no idea on any level about what's happened to her not least because of what you said about not knowing if she's actually still around or not what would you want to say to her I think that um I'm not to blame

I really tried and I did really love you and I really tried and I think that she thinks I'm at fault for whatever reason I'm really not sure but it's not my fault I'm a good person and honestly don't get in touch it's it's done it's done I've been through my bereavement I'm happy now I'm a fairly stable happy person now and and it's just yeah it's in the past. Hannah was talking to Emma now we really want to hear from you on Woman's Hour about anything that interests you really, but particularly this. In a large recent survey, it showed that a quarter of 18 to 34 year old women said that they would refuse a COVID jab because they were worried about the vaccine's effect on their fertility and future pregnancies. I wonder if this is something that you've considered. Is it something

you're talking about with your friends or family or your partner? We'd really like to know your thoughts. On social media, it is at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Singer-songwriter Holly Humberstone has just been named runner-up at the BBC Sound of 2021. She's a former violinist for the Lincolnshire Youth Symphony Orchestra and poetry has played a large part in her songwriting

She started off by putting poems to music She got her big break after uploading the song Hit and Run to BBC Introducing and at only 21 she has already toured with Lewis Capaldi and played at Glastonbury So how does she describe her sound? I don't know really, I think it's always changing, but I'd probably describe it as sort of dark, wonky, alternative, electronic-y pop.

But who knows how I'm going to sound in like a year. I really have no idea. I just kind of make what I kind of like at the moment. OK, well, the best way might be to just hear a little bit of it. This is Vanilla.

Let's hear it. Now I don't want to be your enemy way might be to just hear a little bit of it. This isMD. Not so sure it's good for me. I guess I feel a little nauseous. Think I should be cautious because We go in circles. Pick me up, let me down. Whatever works for you. We kept it lukewarm, oh so vanilla Ooh, that's just what we do And I could go on and on and on and on and on

But the truth is, I had my best nights without you So tell me I'm wrong to think we're far from having fun There we go, that was Vanilla. Now, poetry has played a large part in your songwriting. I think you started off by putting, was it the words of T.S. Eliot to music? Yeah, it has. My dad is like a huge poetry fan and we have we kind of hoarders in my house because we've lived here for like forever um and my dad's got like bookshelves and bookshelves of like

all these different poetry books um but yeah he loves T.S. Eliot um and Leonard Cohen and things like that and he'd sort of put he'd read his poetry when we were small and he'd sort of place the um poetry books um on the piano and I'd kind of make little tunes up to them um I had no idea what they were talking about but I I enjoyed making little tunes up and things like that and he was really encouraging as well now I've heard you say that your lyrics have got to pass uh the quality control test that if they're not tattoo lyrics, they don't make the record. So just explain that.

You've got to explain that to us. I think for me, lyrics are probably the most important part of the creative process for me. I write because it's really therapeutic for me, and it kind of helps me filter through confusing things that I'm going through or different emotions that I'm feeling. When I'm writing, I have this rule that if it's not like a really cringy tattoo kind of thing, then it doesn't make the record, I think.

So you don't actually know that anyone's actually tattooed any of your lyrics yet, no? I don't seem to have been very successful because I don't think anyone's had a tattoo yet. There's still time. You were a former violinist for the Lincolnshire Youth Symphony Orchestra. So did you grow up in a musical household? I did. Yeah. My parents were always really encouraging for me and my sisters to kind of come home from school and do some music practice. Or we've got an art room. The house is a complete tip. It's like such a creative mess and we're all such hoarders. But yeah, I have three sisters and we're all very close in age.

So we kind of come home and just do kind of creative stuff and just have fun. It's come from that, I think. Now, look, I mean, it does sound like a sort of a dream start. But then, of course, in February last year, you were supporting Lewis Capaldi and lockdown struck. I mean, we know how hard it's been for all performers, of course. But how have you guys managed? I've been fine because I haven't really known any different. The lockdown's kind of from the beginning of coronavirus to now.

That's kind of like my whole career. That's kind of when my career started up till now. So I don't really know any difference. And I think there have been some times when it's been a bit frustrating because I wanted to go out and perform and network and meet people. And it feels a bit like my whole career so far has been like quite a lot of it on social media.

And I'm just kind of sitting at home so you're making music at home yeah I think making music over lockdown has been kind of like a bit of a saving grace for me because yeah as I said it's it's just kind of my way of like coping with stuff um so I've definitely been um writing a lot and being creative over lockdown which has saved me for sure and I'm excited to release that music yeah and do you know what's next yeah I'm I'm planning to release a song called haunted house next and I wrote it about my childhood home which I was telling you about um and I've grown up here with my three sisters and it's really old and sort of falling down and it's it's definitely

haunted like I think people definitely died here um and my friend's mum is kind of a little bit has sort of supernatural powers and she came here and was kind of like there's definitely ghosts here um and it kind of made me thinking about made me made me think a bit about a song idea and how we might be moving out soon and it's just kind of sad because it's a very like big part of who I am I think. I was talking to Holly Humberstone. Harvey Weinstein is now serving 23 years in prison in upstate New York for rape and sexual assault. Following the original allegations of his sexual abuse the Me Too movement erupted online with shared stories of abuse from women of all ages, nationalities and backgrounds. It's estimated 12 million women used the hashtag in the first

few months. Those Hollywood stories were only a tiny percentage of those that have since been told. So how have things changed for women outside the film industry? What impact has MeToo had, if any, in the justice system, the workplace and in women's and men's daily lives? Are there unintended consequences that need to be put right? Emma spoke to Gudrun Young. She's a defence barrister who's spent much of her career defending men against alleged crimes of sexual violence against women and recently successfully defended former TV presenter John Leslie when he was accused of grabbing a woman's breast at a Christmas party in 2008.

And to Sarah Green, director of End Violence Against Women, have there been better outcomes for women in the justice system and on more speaking light? No, we've actually ironically seen the system kind of buckle at the points when demand has seriously surged. I would say partly in relation to the Me Too movement. For a long time, the numbers of women and some men reporting rape each year hovered around 15,000 until about 2012. And since then, they have massively surged. So the last full year has got around 55,000 rapes being reported. That's an incredible change and increase for a system to deal with.

However, what it has actually done is buckle and it's prosecuting less cases than it used to do. Let's bring in Gudrun, of course, at this point, who works in this system. Could I just start by asking, what is sexual assault? How can we define that? Sexual assault is sexual touching of any kind, which is either inherently sexual in its nature or is sexual by virtue of the circumstances or the intention of the person doing it.

That's the legal definition. And is it a crime? Yes, it is a crime. It's a crime in Section 3 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. Do you think anybody who has had, as what you've just described, do you think they should bring those cases to court? Yes, is the answer, but there are real difficulties with this. So in a perfect world world every complaint of sexual assault would be

investigated properly and every prosecution properly resourced. The difficulty is, as Sarah has pointed out, one of the consequences of the Me Too movement has been an enormous increase in the number of complaints that have been made. And the system, which was already really struggling because of chronic issues of underfunding and lack of resources, is indeed, I agree with Sarah, buckling under the weight of the level of complaints that are being made. It's a complex picture, in fact, as to why there has been such a fall in cases being charged and prosecuted. But certainly, in my view, anyway, one of the parts of that is about funding and resourcing. So just to be clear, Gudrun, if you're listening

to this and you've had, I don't know, your bottom grabbed by your boss at work or something like that, should you take it to the police? Well, if you want to, you should. Will you get justice? If the question is whether or not the system is designed, is guaranteed to give you justice as a result? The answer to that is plainly no. And one of the unintended consequences of the Me Too movement is that, certainly in so far as my experience is concerned, there have been some high-profile prosecutions of figures, often in the media, often in relation to quite low-level historic offences,

and arguably that's at the expense of really serious sexual offending that's happening as we speak, women who are perhaps less privileged, less articulate, not able to come forward in the same way, who are not getting justice, arguably at the expense of other women, more articulate women who feel empowered to come forward as a result of the meeting movement. That's something I think we should be really concerned about. Could I bring Sarah in at that point? When you hear that reality, Sarah, what is your advice then to women? Because I wonder if you also think perhaps some cases shouldn't be in the courts. I think very broadly, say in the women's movement, the expectation has never been

that the criminal justice system is the answer to this and must be the ultimate arbiter, police and deterrent. It doesn't really constitute a good deterrent. There isn't good evidence on any provision of actual deterrence of those with likelihood to perpetrate in the first place. So we need some much broader questions asked, which I think the Me Too movement started by Tarana Burke on behalf of and working with young black girls who were never going to be listened to has really opened up the questions. For example, the question that you pose about if somebody gets hold of your bottom at work or whatever, well, your employer has got a real duty in the first place to be running a workplace where that is not likely to happen because the signals were all there that

that behaviour is not tolerated here. And then there are further questions for serious sexual assault about the other kinds of things that women need when they're in that situation. And usually criminal justice is not the first top of the list answer that women give. They might be looking for help in their families, some time off work, perhaps, to be believed by those around them and not automatically blamed and have people taking sides, therapeutic support sometimes and so on. And Me Too, again, has been about opening up sometimes those family and friends conversations about how you're treated and how you're judged because rape and sexual

assault sit in much broader sexual equality and sexual ethics questions could i ask you sarah for your take just on and talking about another unintended consequence here. Could you give us a sense of how big an issue it is or not of men being falsely accused off the back of MeToo? I think what is going on with MeToo is that it's got a very long life so far. It's not a flash in the pan. And it is shaking kind of social norms around behaviour between men and women. And a lot of people don't like it. And that is always the case with big social justice issues. I'd say the same thing is going on with racism right now after the enormous attention to racism through 2020

related to George Floyd, related to COVID and who was experiencing it worse and so on. You shake it and these issues come up and some people really don't like it. And part of the answer when people don't like being shaken is to make the question about them so men making the question oh I don't know if I can give you a hug now or you've ruined kind of online dating with your accusations is about turning the question back to oh it's about me and what I can and can't do but actually something much bigger is at stake to answer answer your question, so in the criminal justice context, the question becomes, oh, what about false accusations? Aren't there loads of them? And the idea that there are lots of false accusations of rape is actually hangs very much on the idea on deeply misogynistic rape myths that women cry rape, women make it up, women cry rape after sex that they regret.

It's not well founded. The actual research in this area, so the CPS itself commissioned research on this about seven years ago, where it found there were very low rates of false allegations of rape, which is, after all, a crime in itself, which can be prosecuted if you deliberately make such a serious allegation about somebody when it's not true. So it's tiny when it comes to rape and sexual assault and what is being accused there, of course, in the social media era. What would you say about that in terms of the number of falsely accused? I think we have to examine the presumption that people might just make it up and people might creep onto social media and use it as a shaming tactic. What is more important is the enormous range of conversations that Me Too has led to. Online, for example, we've got a conversation about stealthing. So something that was rarely named or spoken about before, and we've kind of surveyed attitudes on it. That's when, if listeners are not aware, when a man removes a condom without

consent during sex and hasn't told the woman he's having sex with that he's done that. That's a very serious sexual assault, rape in fact, but that behaviour was not described and wasn't being talked about. Now we've got more of a conversation about it. Similarly, we've got conversations now, some of them, about the race stereotypes that are involved in rape and the outcomes for both perpetrators and for victims from ethnic minority communities. So those conversations were less present before. And this is it's very powerful. And it's really something we should remember that's about the cage being rattled about sexual norms and about what is acceptable behaviour between men and women. Yes, and let me bring Gudrun back at this point because you are in a situation where you do speak

to some of those men who have been falsely accused. And the reason I'm just coming to you on this, of course, because this is your area, this is a big part of your career. I just wanted to say that we asked a couple of men on today who found themselves being essentially trial by social media uh it didn't go to to court in the cases we were talking to them about and they did not wish to come on they did not wish to talk about this they did not want to talk about the shame uh would you advise for instance john leslie to come on woman's hour he's been cleared would he talk about this?

I'm not his media consultant but I can see why neither he nor other men who have been accused of things would want to come on and talk about the difficulty with this and don't get me wrong Emma I'm not saying that women are going around making false allegations willy-nilly for no reason but not every allegation is going to be true. Things aren't always clear-cut. There may be different kinds of truth, different interpretations of events, things that are misrepresented or misremembered over the passage of time. One of the difficulties with the Me Too movement, and what's positive about it is that it really has brought to the forefront

the reality of the prevalence of sexual violence against women, and'm all for that but the difficulty is you put something on Twitter and it can't be tested it can't be subject to scrutiny and people can say things without any accountability and allegations of a sexual nature have a unique stigma they can destroy a life in a moment you put out a tweet part of the meeting movement has been aiming and shaming individuals. So there are men whose lives, reputations, careers have been ruined on the basis of trial by Twitter. And we should all as a society be really concerned about that. This isn't about saying, oh, poor men who are the victims of these awful women going around making false allegations. But the cornerstone of a civilised society is the presumption of innocence.

It's about the fact that there should be due process in terms of allegations being tested and tried and scrutinised as they are in a court of law. And that doesn't happen in the court of social media. Gudrun Young and Sarah Green. And I just want to read you an email here from Catherine. She emailed to say, I am sick to death of listening to well-educated, powerful men, politicians, CEOs, saying that they don't know how to behave towards women anymore and that they don't know if they can give women a hug. I think this speaks of a profound difference in education in every culture.

As women, we were brought up to doubt ourselves, I think this speaks of a profound difference in education in every culture. As women, we were brought up to doubt ourselves, to question our behaviour all the time about everything, whereas men are brought up to have a sense of entitlement. And if men are finally having to question their behaviour, maybe that's no bad thing. Surely, as human beings, we all need to learn how to treat our fellow human beings with courtesy and respect. Now, as you know, Emma Barnett took over the main reins of the programme on Monday. And as this is the 75th year of Women's Hour, the programme approached one of the most influential and well-known women in the world to see if she would like to send us a message. And it turns out she did. Here is Emma reading that special message sent to the programme from Her Majesty the Queen.

As you celebrate your 75th year, it is with great pleasure that I send my best wishes to the listeners and all those associated with Woman's Hour. During this time, you have witnessed and played a significant part in the evolving role of women across society, both here and around the world. In this notable anniversary year, And that was signed Elizabeth R on Windsor Castle headed notepaper. Now from a message from the Queen to Imelda Staunton. To some, she is Dolores Umbridge in Harry Potter.

To others, she'll always be Vera Drake, a brave backstreet abortionist. Arguably, her biggest role beckons this summer as she begins playing the Queen in the drama The Crime. Does Imelda Staunton see Her Majesty as a feminist icon? It's the continuity of the Queen that has been so sort of important, I think, in the last, what is it, 60 years, that she's always been there.

And because our society is becoming more, you know, we just chuck that away, move on, move on, move on. And to have something, you know, whatever you feel about, you know, whether you're a royalist or not, this person has got up

and gone to work every day for 60 years. And I sort of admire that. And I think all the actresses, be it Helen Mirren, Claire Foy, Olivia Colman, they've all come to go, well, do you know what? I don't know if I could have done that. Day in, day out, hour in, hour out, just turning up every single day and doing you know her duty and and I feel that that

is her most important sort of the aspect that's most important about her is her ability to just be there and be solid for everyone at all times. How have you gone about trying to perfect her have you been wandering around this christmas period in your home saying words in her way what are you doing i have a bit and there was one day i was out in the garden and with the dog and i was just going and then jim came out he said what are you doing i said i said did you hear me? He said, yes, I could hear you. Like you were just a mad person just wandering around, whispering on. So, yes, I think I do when I don't even know I'm doing it.

You're just wandering around being the queen. Yeah. Have you met her? Yes, I have, I suppose. Yes, I mean, over the years, sort of, I mean, she came to a theatre back in 1986. She came down to the Swan Theatre at the Royal Shakespeare Company. We did a show there. She came there and then I think I got an OBE and she gave me that. So you've actually been given an OBE by the woman you're about to play.

That's quite a rare experience, isn't it? That's a bit odd and then and then no i also sang at her 90th birthday oh just casual amelda just throw it out there yes well no but also what this is what i like this is the lineup shirley bassey kylie minogue and who yes and uh so so but then but it was at winsor Great Park. And the whole show, her 90th birthday, was in the ring where they have horse events. So I sang a song while a troop of Shetland ponies were doing a Grand National in front of me.

So, you know, Kylie sang to White Stallions, Shirley Bassey with these gorgeous, great, serious eyes, and me with Shetland ponies. So I think that just about sums it up. I read that your late mum was a big fan. What would she make of you playing the Queen? Oh my goodness me, she would be over the moon.

And, you know, Irish woman coming over here in the 50s, you know, I'm a daughter of immigrants, but she adored the Queen. I don't know if it was her dress sense, but she adored the queen um i don't know her dress sense but she adored her do you feel a pressure because of course the most recent series there has been you know some some reaction and there has been some concern around some of the the hate directed to to charles and camilla because it's coming more into recent times do you feel a responsibility and a pressure to get it right well i do and i

think i of course i do but also i think my sort of extra challenge is if i need it is that i'm i'm now doing the queen that we're all a little more familiar with with claire foy you know it was almost history you know the the the 50s 40s um And now I feel I'm playing one that people can say, well, she doesn't do that. Well, she's not like that. And so that's my personal sort of little bête noire for me to deal with. Do you think there should be that sort of warning at the beginning of programmes?

This is based on, you know, imagined events based on real historical occurrences? Because, of course, you said it's about the private lives, which we can't know. No, well, I mean, I think that is up to producers and directors to decide. But, you know, surely you want to say to an audience, you know, this isn't verbatim. This isn't taken from diaries.

Imelda Staunton there speaking to Emma. And you can join Emma again on Monday. Now, we've had a lot of poetry on the programme this week, so I'm going to leave you with the words of Seamus Heaney, written about a different time, but very apt today. If we winter this one out, we can summer anywhere. Goodbye. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. you are. Goodbye. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.