Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Imelda Staunton, Quitting parties, Mica Paris

Episode Date: December 16, 2023

Imelda Staunton has played Queen Elizabeth II for the last two series of television drama The Crown. As the final episodes are released this week, she joins us to discuss playing the monarch, and what it’s been like to take on this role since Her Majesty died.How could people step in safely if they see a woman being harassed in public? Former police officer Graham Goulden and criminologist Molly Ackhurst tell us how bystanders can protect themselves while helping others.Soul singer Mica Paris will headline an evening of gospel music on Sky Arts, where she’ll be joined by 10 gospel singers and a four-piece band to perform Christmas songs. She gives us a taste of what to expect on A Gospel Christmas.It's been a year and a half since Roe vs Wade was overturned in the United States, ending the constitutional nationwide right to abortion for millions of women. It remains an issue that divides opinion. The British writer Nazrin Choudhury has directed a short film, Red White and Blue, which follows the character Rachel Johnson, played by Brittany Snow, who is forced to cross state lines in search of an abortion. Should we celebrate quitting a job? When Hannah Witton decided to stop making her successful YouTube and podcast series, Doing It, her friends threw her a surprise quitting ceremony. Hannah tells us whether this party helped, alongside the career coach Soma Ghosh with her advice for anyone thinking of quitting.The bestselling author Louise Doughty joins us to discuss a new ITVX drama based on her novel: Platform 7. She tells us how she has turned male-heavy police procedurals on their head – and why she thinks all middle-aged women long to go on the run.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Sarah Crawley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome to Woman's Hour. Put the kettle on, grab a cuppa and settle in for this week's highlights. Coming up, the soul singer Misha Parris reveals how gospel music has inspired her career and her Christmas. You may have heard of divorce parties, but how about quitting parties? One woman tells us why she's celebrated quitting her job. And the best-selling author Louise Doughty on writing a novel inspired by Peterborough Railway Station. But first, we are joined by a legend of the stage and screen. Imelda Staunton is one of our most celebrated actors, playing many roles we all know and love, from Vera Drake to Dolores

Umbridge in Harry Potter. But she can currently be seen on our TV screens as Queen Elizabeth II in the final series of The Crown on Netflix. She joined Emma on Wednesday to discuss the role and started by describing what it was like to film the series after Her Majesty's death. We were filming this final series on the day and we were filming in the afternoon and we sort of were told that you know people were traveling up to Balmoral anyway we kept going we kept filming that day and then

of course she died that evening and I was you know I was inconsolable really and I think it was obviously to do with you know being sort of inside her if you like in my my small way um and uh and I was very grateful because in the schedule I had 10 days off which was of course turned out that was the 10 days of mourning that we were all in and um and I didn't want to watch a lot of things to do with her uh but I did watch the funeral and um and then I filmed the next day after her funeral. I think it was very strange for the other people looking at me, seeing that figure, that shape. So it was it was a sad time for everyone. But I think particularly for all the people, the creatives, whether it's Peter Morgan and all our producers who've worked on it for so long, it was a very sad time. And yet, you know, we had to carry on and we did.

So it altered, you know, we were thrown off our axis. Yeah. There's no doubt about it. But then, you know, we were doing something that was really in history because the series finishes in about 2005. So we were not up to present day. So we were still telling, you know, Peter Morgan's story. Exactly. And, you know, you are the third to play the Queen in this series, Claire Foy, Olivia Colman before you. And you are playing her at her lowest point, the Anna Cereblis and the children's divorces

and Princess Diana's death and then the royal family's repositioning in the wake of that. It is a fictionalised series based on some of those facts. But I suppose in the context that you've just talked about, but also the time that you are depicting her, have you learnt anything new? Have you got a different viewpoint on that time? Because it's history, but it's close history. Yeah, sure. And I think that's really difficult, isn't it? Because no one

has a problem with films about Elizabeth I, you know, and it's because we think we know it that we sort of have, surely have a say or control over it. Well, we don't because all our stories are told by dramatists, unless you're reading a history book. But I think, you know, I mean, my part of the story, as you said, are the difficult years. Dramatically, of course, that is quite interesting to do. And yet, of course, when you're playing any real person,

you are aware of their family members, whether they're watching it or not. But, you know, you don't want to cause undue distress, as we say. But I think there was plenty going on in that family that was doing that for itself. And I think there were very difficult years for all of them. But, I mean, I think what my biggest sort of feeling about the Queen is that her faith was hugely important to her. And I think it gave her enormous inner strength. And it seems to me that that got her through practically everything,

that and her sense of duty. And I think that's why thousands, if not millions of people queued up to see the coffin. Whether you're a monarchist or not, I think they were saying thank you to a person who did their job seemingly 24-7, decade after decade. I was going to say, did you think of queuing up? I didn't. I couldn't. I was filming. I didn't want to be seen there. I didn't want to... It's quite an awkward situation in some ways through no creation of your own, but I imagine. But you say at the same time on a personal level you were inconsolable. Do you feel that's because you've learned so much about her or do you feel you already had that bond? No, I think it was certainly because of doing this show, definitely.

It's heightened everything to do with what I might or might not have thought about her. And therefore, you know, I think I would have been sad like the rest of the world, but it was so much more acute because of what I was doing. You do look at, in some of your episodes, just looking across them, but you look at the relationship between the Queen and Tony Blair at a time when he was rating in a more popular way than her with the public.

But there was an audience that was always on her side a lot more, which was the Women's Institute. I think that's safe to say. His speech didn't go down so well, but hers always did. And I was looking back through actually what she said at the centenary of the Women's Institute. She was a member. She said she had been, I think, a member of the Women's Institute

longer than she'd been Queen. She'd been Queen, yeah. Yes, at one of the speeches that you were giving. But in 2015, when the Women's Institute turned 100, she gave what people described as a feminist speech. You know, she talked about the changes in women's lives and being granted the vote since 1915, climbing Everest. And she praised the Women's Institute for gathering women together.

But there was this particular line where she says, in the modern world, or she said, the opportunities for women to give something of value to society are greater than ever because through their own efforts, they now play a much greater part in all areas of public life do you do you end up viewing her in that feminist way from your work i absolutely do and she was a she was a woman in very much a man's world in in that society um and i think she she trod her own path as much as she could with the constraints of the royal household. And someone who I think couldn't make waves, but had to be constant, had to be serious, had to cover so many bases. But then I would imagine in quite a frustrating way,

because you think, I really want to say this about this issue, and I can't. I think that must have been tough for her. But I think she's just such an example of someone who can, I think she adapted quite well. I mean, she was there for decades, so she had to change with the decades. And I think she recognised that the family was changing. She recognised the effect that Diana had on the family and also what William, you know, she recognised that change has to happen and you've got to go with it. But at the same time, it's sort of like a magician,

but remaining exactly the same. How's your meetings with the royal family going? You've met them before, haven't you? Which ones? Have they talked to you since the crown? No, no one's phoned. No, I don't imagine they, I don't know if they watch it or not. But no, I sang for the Queen's 90th birthday. Yes, this is the material, go on. And it was at Windsor Great Park and she had a wonderful evening event and there were lots of singers, lots of singers. When I say lots of singers, I mean Kylie and Shirley Bassey. Then you put me into the mix.

I don't know quite exactly why I was there. But when everyone was singing, there was a wonderful horse show going on. There were stallions. Kylie was singing. There were white stallions and Shirley Bassey, black stallions. And then I sang my song, which was a song from the 40s called Sing Sing. And when I was singing, there was a Shetland Pony Grand National. So I thank you.

That was my, I thought, no, I'll have glory. No, Shetland Ponies for me. But it was good fun. Well, just talking, I've got to ask you today a couple of things more, if I may, certainly about theatre. It's been announced the National Theatre has named its first female and ethnic minority director. Indu. Indu Rubasingam.

The first. She's the seventh director of the National since it was founded, but the first woman. What do you make of that? Well, I can get very personal about this because she's a friend and we've done a lot to support the Kiln Theatre that she has run for nearly 12 years.

I have to say, and I'm dropping in, she called us last night to tell us. So I'm over the moon, absolutely over the moon. And she is the right person for the job. Not that she's the woman or a woman of curler. She is the right person for this job. She has turned the Kiln Theatre around. She will do such great things at the National Theatre.

It is daunting and so exciting in equal measure. This couldn't happen to a better candidate. Just a final thought, Imelda, if I can. When you were starring in Gypsy, is it right, during its transfer to the West End, a mouse snuck into your costume? Well, you've told the end line now, haven't you? Well, is that true? Is that the case? One always has to... Completely true. Right, yeah. And you just had to... Yeah. Well, how did told the end line now, haven't you? Well, is that true? Is that the case? One always has to... Completely true. Right, yeah.

And you just had to... Yeah. Well, how did you deal with it? Well, I didn't realise it was there until I started speaking because I'd put my coat on to start the show and started the show, was coming down the auditorium, shouting out, sing out, Louise, and coming. I thought, hang on a minute, hang on a minute,

there's something crawling up my arm. And it crawled, it was a poor little mouse that had obviously been sitting there quite happily, crawled up and it was sitting on my shoulder inside my coat and then I could feel it really clinging on and I did the whole first scene, then I had a big song and I thought the mouse is still there, wandering around my shoulder

and then I kept doing a lot of gestures with my left arm where the mouse was, thinking the mouse might just run down my arm, fly out the end of my... No, it didn't happen. Didn't happen. Singing the big song, thinking I've got a mouse. If anyone knew... So I did about the first 20 minutes with the mouse inside my coat.

Yeah. And we've been friends ever since. Imelda Staunton and the mouse. Now, it's been reported this week that a man who raped a woman as she slept on a London underground tube service has been jailed for nine years. Ryan Johnston subjected a 20-year-old woman to a shocking ordeal on the Piccadilly line. A French tourist and his 11-year-old son were said to have witnessed the attack and reported it to the police. There was no CCTV on the train and it is understood the woman was returning home from an evening out with

friends. Those are the facts as we know them but it is a truly shocking case and what are you meant to do if you see something like that? Well to discuss Emma was joined by Graham Goulden, a retired police officer who delivers bystander training and worked with the British Transport Police on their Speak Up, Interrupt campaign, and Molly Ackhurst, lecturer in criminology at the University of Greenwich. She began by asking Graham if this sort of case is common. We do hear cases of sexual harassment, you know, comments, words being made, but this extreme end of that continuum of harm is fortunately rare, but it's happened. And we need to understand in these cases, how can we help bystanders? How can we help these third parties who may be present in these situations to do something rather than doing nothing? Because we all have that power to make a difference. And I

think, you know, bystander inaction is not inevitable. Some people do step up even when stakes are high. So for me, we need to empower people to intervene, give them the tools, the knowledge to notice and to act. What are you meant to do in the more extreme cases? Because it's very frightening for all involved. Yeah. For me, the best advice I give people is to be selfish in those first few seconds don't react because when you react to situations you can find yourself getting hurt you know your brain is in that fight or flight sort of space and you know the stress the adrenaline the cortisol is going to the brain and if we're not careful that can lead to that reactive response so when you're selfish

you can take a step back take some deep breaths and start to think to yourself, who's around me? Because those deep breaths are really powerful. They start to get the brain engaged again. And you start to think to yourself, right, who's around me? Who's with me? Do I need to step in? Could I just shout something? Could I just stand up and make my presence known to the person? Could I ask the time of the person who's causing the harm or the victim or just speak to a victim, turn your back to the harm do i ask the time of the person who's causing the harm or or the victim or just speak to a victim turn your back to the harm doer and just speak to the victim so when you when we equip people with these with these tools it's amazing people people will use these tools molly let me bring you in at this point molly good morning morning do you think there's a difference

between how women and men react as bystanders and how do we navigate that? I mean, we all live in a gendered world and we all are socialised differently, right? So I think, you know, we're all going to respond in slightly different ways, regardless of who we are in the world and how we have been socialised to kind of interact with it. I think something that Graham said that kind of landed in a different way for me, I guess, is that I would never encourage someone to be selfish. I would encourage us to take a survivor-centered approach. What is that person experiencing in that moment? And what do they need from me in that moment? And sometimes that direct response, which, you know, is, I think Graham just mentioned, isn't what they need. In fact, often it's not what they need. It will make

them feel less safe, less secure. It may make them feel more at risk of harm and it's why many feminist campaign groups often speak of the 40s so there's that direct action approach then there's also distract which is I could go up to someone I could like oh excuse me what's the time can you show me the the way to the station and get them out of that incident and out of that moment. Maybe I don't feel able to as a woman in that space to kind of do that distract approach, do that direct approach, so maybe I call on others around me to mobilize them to intervene. Or just as an important response is a delayed response, which is going up to the person who has experienced some form of sexual violence, some form of sexual harassment or public intrusion of their personal space and asking them,

are you okay? I saw what happened to you. And I believe that what happened to you was wrong. And I just wanted to make sure that you're okay. And I think something that we, you know, that I've heard throughout my years as a frontline sexual violence support worker is one of the worst things was that nobody said anything, that nobody intervened. What would you say to those who are listening? I'll come back to Graham in just a moment. But those who have been with children in a scenario like this, have you got different advice? I think that's the beauty of the four Ds that feminist groups have been practising and modelling and teaching. And I've delivered bystander intervention work with feminist groups for a really long time as well and you know there's no prescriptive approach if I'm with a child

you know that this man that witnessed this horrific incident was with an 11 year old you know the delayed response is is so powerful and it's because you know what what survivors tell us that they won after experiencing an incident of sexual violence largely isn't punishment and punitivity or the criminal justice system what they want after experiencing an incident of sexual violence largely isn't punishment and punitivity or the criminal justice system. What they want is belief, validity, accountability, and a delayed response, checking in with someone. What can I get you? I saw what happened. What if your instinct is to move yourself because you're with a child

and your child away and you do nothing? Then I think it's about practising our muscle memory. What else can I do in that moment maybe I I'm not safe to intervene maybe I can call on other people maybe I can get off at the next station and and raise alarm to a guard or something you know there's always things that we can do and I think so often Graham mentioned fight and flight and actually freeze is a really common response when we see something horrific and scary and it's's, you know, I echo what Graham said. It's about practicing. We speak in the groups that I've worked with about a muscle memory and making sure that every time that we see someone being made to feel uncomfortable. And as human beings in the world, we do know what someone looking uncomfortable is.

It's about us kind of finding ways constantly to interrupt those spaces um kind of being in a space and looking around and saying okay who is anyone uncomfortable in these spaces graham have you worked with people who who would move away or have found themselves doing nothing yeah you know in all my work i meet people who regret not doing more and it's a common thing for human beings when they don't intervene when they don't do what they think they should be doing they internalize that that moral trauma that moral injury wishing they had done something and it's a powerful motivator for if we introduce to them in their trade to think about okay how can we overcome that how can we help you not have that guilt that could last a lifetime? And it is through

the provision of good training, good quality training, provision of tools and discussion. Molly makes some really valid points about giving people tools and practicing these tools. Active bystandership can become a muscle memory. The more we do it, the more we practice it, it just becomes natural. I've been doing this work for 15 years and I find myself just seeing things and just instinctively knowing what questions to ask. And that's what we wanted it just becomes natural. I've been doing this work for 15 years and I find myself just seeing things and just instinctively knowing what questions to ask. And that's what we wanted to do with the Speak Up, Interrupt campaign

was to give members of the public some basic tools because positive evolution, positive change happens with small actions. We're not asking people to do big things. You were also targeting men, weren't you, with that campaign in the first instance? There was a message for men about what men can do. The vast majority of these incidents involve men as perpetrators, as harm doers and women as victims.

And we need to get men on the page. Men want to help. And that difference between men and women intervening, you know, I think there's this inbuilt fear that if I intervene on a train, I'm going fighting. And that physical fear is a big destructive influence on us. So again, it's about giving men the tools. Do I have to step into the situation? You know, just standing up, as I said before, your power, your great superpowers, your presence, put that into practice. And also Molly talked about speaking to victims, you know, telling a victim that they're not to blame. It's such a simple thing to do, but such a powerful thing to say to any victim. That was Graham Goulden and Molly Ackhurst. And if you've been affected by any of the topics discussed, you can find support links by

searching for BBC Action Line. Now to the award-winning soul singer and actor Misha Paris, who has dominated the charts and our screens since her mid-teens. You may know her work as Ellie Nixon in EastEnders, performing in Western musicals or as a radio and TV presenter. Well, this Christmas, she's headlining an evening of gospel music on Sky Arts, where she'll be joined by 10 gospel singers and a four-piece band to perform various Christmas songs. Misha joined Emma earlier this week to give us a taste of her Christmas special and began by describing the role gospel music has played in her life.

I mean, when I grew up in the church and my grandparents, my grandfather, we were the first family of the church because he was the pastor, well, you say the minister. So we were the example in the church because he was the pastor well you say the minister so we were the example in the church we always had to be best dressed and because we were the first family and so you know I went to church pretty much seven days a week and if I wasn't at church we was having prayer meeting and if it wasn't prayer meeting it was some other church do and it was great I know it sounds like it was like oh my gosh but actually it was brilliant it was always something going on and we were always like singing all the time and it was great but in terms of you

going professional as a singer that that was quite a lot for your grandparents who I know raised you oh they couldn't take it it was just like um you know I'm gonna end up in in the fiery pit of hell because that's where everyone else goes when they go into secular music and it was a fear they were terrified and i was there going look it's going to be all right i'm going to do this you know i'm like 17 at this point you know and i'm like i can do this it's going to be fine yeah but everyone ends up in drugs and i was like no no i promise you and i made a promise to them i actually said i promise you i will never be a drug addict. Please sign the contract. Because I couldn't do it without them because I was underage.

So I was like... And you know what? They did it. Bless them. They signed it. And I was with Island Records. And then I was on top of the Pops pretty much instantly. The record just took off.

And everyone... I just remember when it all kicked off and I went back home to visit grandma and grandpa. I walked up to the door. She opened the door and she had on a Misha Paris T-shirt. And he had it on as well. And I was just, you know, to just see your merchandise being worn by your grandparents is a sight. It was such a moment. If they can't be your biggest fans, I suppose.

But I love that they were wearing the merch. They weren't too cool for that. It was just seal of approval. It's all right. So, you know, it's a massive part of my life. I don't go for the religious aspects of it, but the music was always the pulling thing for me because it just makes you feel good,

regardless of, you know, if you're you know into church or not about a gospel christmas i mean putting this with christmas i suppose has a bit more of a religious element for some yeah and that's okay but it's not like i'm a you know i'm not trying to tell you that i'm like i'm so well behaved and i do i love the music and i'm a human being and i'm here to inspire um and touch people's lives with all the music that I do. But this is very special because not only is it a Christmas show, but I was allowed to my church, which was very much like the Blues Brothers, you know, dancing in the aisles. That kind of, you know, I'd go to the Church of England. It was all very calm and quiet, which was nice as well.

But it was a different contrast. So some of these songs, you know them to be sort of in the Church of England style. But obviously I've taken it and done it in our way and turned it around and it's a whole different thing. So you will be dancing when you hear this. We will come to the music very, very shortly. But I just wanted to ask, I know that Shaka Khan has played a big part in your life.

Big time, yeah. She was just here last week. And has given you advice as well. Yeah, you know, I was very fortunate with Shaka. I met Shaka right at the beginning. She was living in London at the time and then we became very good friends I was such a fan I couldn't even believe that she liked me I remember when we first shared we were doing a gig together at the Royal Albert Hall and we were next door to each other dressing rooms and you know she's quite little and I'm very tall I'm five foot ten. And so I walked out the room and all I heard someone say, give me those boots. And I was like, who's that?

And then I looked and it was Shaka. She liked my boots. I had, you know, proper riding boots like the riders. She loves boots. And we both have a boot thing. We love boots. Yeah. And that's how we met.

And then she became godmother to my eldest daughter. And we've been best friends ever since. She's the sweetheart. And I was reading, you know, Words to Live By. And you've been asked with some of the wisdom because you've been through real ups and downs in your career. We all have. And in life. Yeah.

And we all have. You'll find the female singers, particularly female singers, we have a journey that is never easy. Whether it's Billie, whether it's Whitney, Amy. We've all had really tough lives. It's very hard to be a female and be a performer. And anyone will tell you that because you have to raise your kids. You have to be beautiful. You have to, you know, it's quite a male dominated industry.

It's starting to change, you know, but when I started, you know, you couldn't say you produce the record or help produce it. You couldn't say things like that. You had to just say, yes, I just came and sang the song and I did my bit. So things have changed a lot, but it's very hard for females in being performers. And I think it's hard for women, period, to be in positions of power. So some of us have made it through and it's wonderful. But Natalie Cole was another person who gave me some great, great advice. Why don't you share something that perhaps you... Natalie was really powerful.

She said to me, you know, she said, Misha, you know, a lot of people are going to just want you because you're in the public eye. And then there's going to be the ones that love you for you. And she told me that when I was 18 and that really stuck. She said, know the difference and, you know, just keep the love of what you do, because if you if you make it about anything else, you'll probably end up hating it. And I never forget that because I always think that a lot of people in this industry for a long time and they're here for a long time doing it, you can get jaded and get tired of singing your songs. You can go into that zone, you know.

But me, because I got this information at such a young age, I found a way to just always be in love with it. I mean, I love this thing. Even if it's just one keyboard, one person sat in front of me, I'm singing. That was the incredible Misha Paris. And remember, you can watch A Gospel Christmas on Sky Arts from the 23rd of December. Still to come on the programme, the author Louise Doughty reveals why she went on the run to the Western Isles. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, it's been a year and a half since Roe v Wade was overturned in the United States, ending the constitutional nationwide right to abortion for millions of women.

It's an issue that still divides opinion and has continued to play out in the courts across the country. Only this week in Texas, the state Supreme Court ruled against a woman seeking an abortion for her high-risk pregnancy hours after her lawyers said she was leaving the state for the procedure. Well, a new short film directed by British writer Nazrin Chowdhury is centred around this very issue. Red, White and Blue follows the character Rachel Johnson, a single mother in a precarious financial position, played by Brittany Snow. Rachel is forced to cross state lines from

Arkansas in search of an abortion. The film comes with a dramatic twist which results in Rachel's life never being the same again. Let's hear a clip. This is when Rachel arrives at the abortion clinic in Illinois. Hi, I need an abortion like yesterday. Do you have an appointment? I tried calling but I couldn't get through. I've come all the way from Arkansas. Yeah, you and everybody from that state and all the other ones please I'm desperate I don't have time I really need to get back to my son all I can do is take your name honey and put you on the waiting list

but I gotta warn you it's pretty long the film is Nazrin Chowdhury's directorial debut and it has qualified to be considered for a 2024 Academy Award Nazrin joined me from LA for her first UK interview. We talked about the film as well as her journey

as a British South Asian woman in Hollywood. But first I asked her why she decided to write it. Well, you can hear my accent. It makes it sound like I'm still residing in London, which is where I was born and brought up. But actually I now live in Los Angeles, which is where I work. I'm raising two young daughters in America. And last year, when the Supreme Court effectively overturned and reversed Roe v. Wade, it set in motion, you know, the world that you live in and you realize the reversal of Roe v. Wade means

for someone like the characters in our story. Was there a particular person in mind that you're aiming this at? Well, you know, it's called Red, White and Blue. And so that's an allusion to the flag of the United States of America. And I called it that deliberately because this issue affects everybody living under this flag. You are either someone who has reproductive rights that have been affected or you know someone whose reproductive rights have been affected. So, I wrote it really for two different audiences, one which can really relate and resonate with the characters that we see that are dealt with this obstacle in which they are living in a state, Arkansas, and unable to get necessary and urgent healthcare within their home state and have to travel hundreds of miles and two states away to get this very necessary procedure, as it turns out to be in their case. I wrote it also because we are dealing with this very polarized society politically that we have. And I thought the best way to basically, you know, I'm a big fan of Harper Lee and To Kill a Mockingbird.

And she often talks about you never really understand a person until you climb into their skin and walk around in it. And so I wrote this to not just preach to the choir, because it's more for the people who are voting in a certain way, who may not be seeing the people who are right there in front of them, you know, around their dinner tables, and could they maybe walk a mile in their shoes? And in doing so understand really, theoretically, it feels like it's okay to vote one way. But what are and she's best known for Hairspray, Pitch Perfect, John Tucker Must Die roles that are nothing like this did you cast her on purpose because it was taking her out of the the way that we see her? Yes definitely I felt like I really wanted to have someone like her that is known for a different kind of role and have the ability to just completely ground her in this character of Rachel. But I also think Brittany Snow is this remarkable talent. And I think even when you watch her in those broad, entertaining feature films that she's been in, Stillwater's really run deep. I think if you watch her,

even in those films, there's a lot that goes on internally in how she emotes. And I really, she was on a very early list of mine as someone who I wanted that I thought just would be revelatory in this role, but also not because I cast her knowing that I felt like I could see someone that I could relate to in that role. There is, without giving too much away, there is a huge twist in the film, which is an absolute gut punch, completely catches you off guard, or it did me. Was that on purpose? And was it always going to end that way? Yes. I mean, after Roe v. Wade was effectively overturned by the Supreme Court, there were lots of headlines about how this was affecting so many different people across the country. And I was just living with this and understanding the nuances.

You know, it's a very nuanced, multilayered subject matter with many reasons why someone might want such a procedure it was just in the news at all times and I just it's a very clever twist Nazrin it's a very clever twist because we don't want to give the twist away but what it does is it doesn't matter which what you're it really makes everybody think twice whatever side of the argument you sit on about abortion what happens would make everyone question yes it was very deliberate and I wanted to land that gut punch and I think we tell that story in such a way where when you watch it on the first watch there are multiple reasons why you might this person might want. And then when we get to the gut punch reveal of it all, like if that didn't make you understand

why it's necessary already, the idea was, well, will this? Because this is as bad as it gets. And maybe what we need to do is just in a non-judgmental way, have a conversation about reproductive rights. And where did your career start, Nazrin? How did you get into it? I was born and brought up in London, born to Bangladeshi parents in

Tuting, and then grew up in Ballon. Thought I would become a doctor, ended up, you know, spectacularly disappointing my Asian parents by becoming a screenwriter instead. I did biomedical science at King's College, London, and for a hot minute also worked at Lambeth Council, actually, for the leader of Lambeth Council. And for a hot minute, thought about Korean politics, but decided I could change more hearts and minds by telling stories. And so I did some acting with the Royal Court Youth Theatre, went on a theatre tour of Austria, during which I wrote my first screenplay, which led to me getting signed by an agent and the domino effect from that. I was just really lucky that the first thing I wrote won this award and then launched my

writing career. And then I moved to LA 10 years ago to just start show running out here and become a writer producer in Hollywood. Well, I always say luck favors the brave. So there is that. Also, did it take a South Asian British woman going to America to be able to create art like this? Would you have been able to do it in the UK? You know, that's a really interesting question, because I always say that I was working in a meaningful way in the UK, but I really wanted to tell some original stories. I had many stories I wanted to tell. I think I did my version of what I say Idris did.

You know, Idris Elba in The Wire. He went over to America, became Idris Elba, and then came back to do Luther and so on. I really needed to do my writer's version of that just because I do feel like the opportunities were few and far between for someone like me in the UK, if I'm being really honest. And going to Hollywood and seeing an appetite for some original storytelling and the value put upon my voice there, it's just been a really warm and welcoming environment for me, which isn't to say that I'm not still working in the UK. In fact, I'm just penned a British crime drama. So my heart still belongs to the UK.

But we're all global citizens now. You know, we are in the era of global streaming. British crime dramas travel well here. American travel shows travel well over there. For me, I'm just about a storyteller. I'm just a storyteller who wants to tell stories in whatever medium I can, in whatever space I can. Right now, Hollywood is the place that's allowing me to tell the stories that I really want to

with that courage that you talked about. And Red, White and Blue, it's qualified to be considered for an Oscar. This is exciting. It really is something that is just wonderful and marvelous to us, not least because hopefully then still shines a light on why we made this film and allows it to be talked about, because if it's in contention for that, then maybe people are getting to hear about it. We certainly didn't set out to necessarily make an Oscar qualified short or, you know, short film is usually the domain of a director's calling card. I work as a showrunner who is able to have scratched that itch because

directors are ostensibly working to a showrunner's vision. And I didn't feel the need to direct, but because this is a film and it was a very specific story that I need to tell, I launched it on that basis. And the fact that it's now getting this really, like there's been such an enormous response to it. We've just also released it online for people to be able to watch and get access to it. And I think it's really like the gut punch that you talked about.

I think everyone's feeling that. And yeah, we won this award at an Academy Qualifying Festival and we are so delighted that academy members are now watching it and hopefully we'll see what happens with it Nazrin Chowdhury there and Red White and Blue is available to watch on the short film platform Omeletto. Now should we celebrate quitting a job? We've seen the rise amongst some of divorce parties, but how about a quitting party? When the online sex educator and author Hannah Witton decided to stop making her YouTube and

podcast series Doing It, her friends and colleagues threw her a surprise quitting ceremony. There was a cake and even a card saying, bye bye, don't come back. This follows a trend in China of people throwing resignation parties. Well, she joined Emma earlier this week to discuss this alongside Soma Ghosh, a career coach and host of the Career Happiness podcast. Emma began by asking Hannah to describe her quitting party. I was with two of my friends and kind of colleagues, if you can have colleagues in the freelancer world and they were very much there for me throughout all of the processing and decision making of ending my sex and relationships

youtube channel and podcast and so then when we had one of our regular work sessions together they yeah they surprised me with a cake and a song and a card. It was lovely. Did it make you feel better about it? Because it's a hard thing to decide to do quitting sometimes. For others, it's the best thing they've done. It's really straightforward. For others, it's toxic and sad. I mean, there's a range of reactions, but it sounds like for you

because this is something you'd built up for a long time. Yeah. They were the ones that actually very much helped me realise that it was something that I should celebrate, rather last 12 years um and just being really proud of that and it not being a case of like running away from it um but actually just like that project feels completed that feels done I'm ready to move on to something else now and that's a really positive thing and deserves to be celebrated in itself but then also I think that the courage to like make a huge decision like that for me I know the process

of making that decision was so hard that actually like somebody congratulating me on simply the ability to make the decision and follow through with it like feels really good when somebody validates that for me like oh well done that well done. That must have been really hard. I'm like, it was. You know, experts on decision making as a process say that there are no such things as the wrong decisions. You've just got to, once you've made the decision, make it the right decision. So that's something to live by in case it helps as well. But I imagine a party like that brings that feeling to the fore. Soma, let me bring you in at this point. I mentioned this trend in China of people throwing resignation parties. It's a real move away from perhaps what had been, which was the idea of get a job in these sorts of companies that you should celebrate and career should all be about the hustle.

You know, there's a bit of a change in a trend for certain people now, isn't there? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I honestly think that a lot of this kind of phenomenon is around the great resignation and quiet quitting as well and quiet quitting is basically when you're kind of doing the bare minimum in your job but you're probably behind the scenes job hunting and I think often what happens with that as well is that people don't realize that there are probably a lot of people who are quite quitting. I know previously, I've done this in previous jobs, and a lot of people are doing it more and more now. And that's because of different obligations, it could be financial, it could be,

you know, because they feel like they're expected to stay in that job. And echoing what Hannah said there as well, it's, it takes time to come to that decision. It really, really does. And I think there can be extra pressure from family and friends to go the opposite way and not quit. Well, there's also what are you going to do next? And there's the practical side of this, which I know you're keen to talk about. Have you got any advice for someone who really can't decide whether to do this or not and is concerned? Yeah, I mean, I think some of the tips that I would really, really say firstly, you know, understand why you are quitting. Because I think often the reason why we don't quit is because of that pressure that I've already spoken about. But in terms of the steps,

I would kind of think about, you know, what are you going to do next? Are you going to apply for a job and have another job? Because what can happen then is that people get into the situation where they're job hopping because they end up in another situation where they're unhappy at work. On top of that, what can also happen is that they don't actually understand what it is they want. So it could be that they want to change their career. It could be that, you know, even taking a sabbatical could be the answer because I myself was in a situation many years ago where I was unhappy at work and I was in a toxic work environment. I was bullied and I didn't want to celebrate mainly because my mental health was being affected. And there will be some people listening today who will be in that state of mind and maybe taking that break will be good. But also it's that financial pressure that so many people are feeling now,

where when I'm working with my clients, they feel this pressure of, oh, what is everyone going to say? And how am I going to get out of that? So I think in terms of the tips, it really, really starts with you having some kind of plan or strategy. But it can take time. It can take time to get there. That was Soma Ghosh and Hannah Witton.

Now our next guest has taken inspiration from a rather unlikely source, Peterborough train station. Louise Doughty is the best-selling author of Apple Tree Yard and a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature. Her book Platform 7 has now been adapted as a TV series on ITVX. It tells the story of Lisa, a ghost trapped on that train station until she can solve the mystery of her own death. Did she really take her own life as the police thought? Or was she murdered? Emma spoke to Louise earlier this week and began by asking her why she chose to set the story at Peterborough train station.

It's Peterborough railway station as a metaphor for purgatory, which for anyone who's ever been through Peterborough Railway Station, when your train is cancelled, the ladies is locked, the waiting room is locked. In fact, in fairness to Peterborough Railway Station, that happens less often. I mean, the ladies toilet being locked, obviously not the train being cancelled. But I grew up in a small town in the East Midlands. I went to university in the north of England. I used to have to change there a lot, you know, in the early 1980s. And I used to have this standing joke that if I'd been bad and went to purgatory when I died, I would find myself trapped on Peterborough railway station on a cold November night. And as you say, this is a novel and now a TV series that's narrated by a

ghost. But I think the first thing we want to say is that although TV series that's narrated by a ghost. But I think the first thing we want to say is that although it's a novel narrated by a ghost, and it's about a very serious subject, it's actually a novel and I think a TV series about love. It's about the different forms of love in our lives. It's about how we do live on in the hearts of those that love us. It's about the love we have for our family, our friends. But there is a central mystery. It opens, Lisa is on the station, you realise very quickly, it's not a spoiler that she's a ghost. In the TV series, she's brilliantly played by Jasmine Jobson. She's standing there in pyjamas, you think, what is this young woman doing? And then you realise that

there's a mystery behind her death. What really happened to her and why is she trapped on the station? Do you believe in ghosts? I believe that if you believe in ghosts, they exist. And I don't believe in ghosts. I don't know if that sounds nonsensical. You could have given a politician for that answer, couldn't you? I believe in the belief. Yes. I think that ghosts are manifestations of what we want. So I have had friends who have been very rational like me, and I'm a very rational, humanist, sceptical person, who, having lost somebody close to them, have gone to mediums, even not necessarily believing they can talk to their loved one,

but believing that the thought of doing that, that being in a room where that is possible, has given them great comfort. So yes, I mean, it sounds like a smart way of putting it, but I think it's also a truthful way of putting it. You can believe in the belief and you can believe in the comfort of that somebody who has gone still exists in your life. I mean, I believe very much that my mother still exists in my life. I look like her. My daughters look like her. And the strange thing about Platform 7 is when I was writing it in the wake of losing my mother. And at the time, I didn't realise that was what it was about. I thought

I'm writing a novel about a bit of a psychological thriller set on Peterborough railway station. But the central character is a young woman who's died. And there are scenes where the mother is mourning her daughter. And then I finished the novel and I started thinking about it and talking about it. And I thought, yeah, I was writing about a mother's love for her daughter. And actually, I was thinking of my mother. I'd always said that when both my parents had died, I'd never change trains on Peterborough Railway Station again, because I wouldn't have to go back to the small town where they lived. And then what did I do? I decided to write a whole novel set there. What was that about? If it was not holding on, I think, to my mother.

And I only realised that a year or so after I'd finished the book. Strange thing, the human imagination. Yes, and where it takes you and why you're doing what you're doing without consciously thinking of it. You know, there will be those who, and they'll love your books and they'll be very familiar with the fact that you like complexity in your stories and different layers. But there'll still be perhaps that thought that there is a woman who has died here, who has been killed, you know, and there are concerns about the prevalence of that on television and in our culture. And in reality, of course, but people go to to culture to escape what do you say to that

um i would say i share those concerns and certainly when it comes to what we've had historically and thankfully it is changing is in a lot of thrillers or tv dramas we have had the body of a dead woman almost always young beautiful, as if any murder victim is a beautiful young woman in a negligee running through a forest. And then we have had a male detective figure to whom that body is a conundrum to be solved. And a male killer, such as a serial killer, who's a psychopath and a sadist. And the actual engine of the drama is the battle between these two men. And the female body is nothing, just like a crossword puzzle. Thankfully, I think we've moved on a long way from that. And I think the issue is not, should violence against women

be addressed in entertainment, in novels and television dramas and films. It's how do we do it? And the whole point about Platform 7 is the story is told from the point of view of the young woman who has died. And she becomes an active investigator, investigating her own death. She's not just a conundrum to be solved by a middle-aged man. You see her having thoughts and emotions even after death. And crucially, you see her attempt at revenge later on. And I really don't want to give away what happened. I'm letting you talk because I know if I say the wrong thing, I'm going to give away a spoiler.

She becomes a very active participant in the investigation of her own death. And, you know, violence against women is a horrific reality. We have to address it. We can't ignore it. We can't pretend it doesn't happen. It's a question of how we do it. Yes. And that distinction. I do want to bring up the fact your most recent novel, A Bird in Winter, out last summer. You can tell us a bit about it in brief if you can, but also, is it right you went on the run to research it? I did go on the run. I'm a great believer in research. It's a bit like when I have an idea for a novel, I have to go out and hunt it down like a woolly mammoth. And with Platform 7, I spent more time than any one person needs to do on Peterborough Railway Station, including...

I'm sure there are great fans of this railway station who listen, by the way, but carry on. And I'm actually very fond of it. And I'm actually very fond of it and I'm certainly very fond of the staff who are fantastic and welcoming to me. But yes, with The Bird in Winter, it opens with a woman getting up in an ordinary office block in Birmingham in a meeting and there's, you know, a glass top table

and croissant coffee on the table. And what she's thinking as she rises is it's no more than 30 paces to the lift. And she goes on the run. She heads to the station. And during the course of her flight, you follow her flight. You find out who and what she is running from. And I was writing this novel. The irony did not escape me during the pandemic at a time when we were all trapped in our own homes. So the minute restrictions lifted, I thought, right, I need to go on the run. And I got on

my waterproof coat and my rucksack and a beanie hat and I started in Birmingham. And I followed Bird's journey up to Glasgow, over to the Western Isles, a beautiful little village on the west coast of Scotland called Plockton, and then across to Inverness, up to Thurso, and the ferry to Orkney, and so on. In the novel, Bird goes on to Shetland, and then she crosses the North Sea illegally during a storm on a yacht and enters Norway at Stavanger illegally. I didn't do that bit. That was the author Louise Doughty.

Platform 7 is available to watch now on ITVX. That's all from me this afternoon, but do join Emma on Monday at 10am where she'll be discussing the story of 23-year-old Gracie Spinks. Gracie was murdered by a man who she'd reported to the police for stalking her. We'll hear why campaigners believe there should be independent stalker advocates and how they think the police failed Gracie. Do join Emma on Monday. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.