Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Iranian schoolgirls, the womb, Cynthia Erivo, No More Page 3, UK marriage law changes

Episode Date: March 4, 2023

Schoolgirls in Iran have been admitted to hospital this week after reportedly being poisoned by gas whilst at school. Many Iranians suspect the poisonings are a deliberate attempt to force girls’ schools to close, although the government has not confirmed. Faranak Amidi, BBC Near East Women's Affairs correspondent and Azadeh Pourzand, human rights researcher at SOAS discuss.In new book Womb: The Inside Story of Where We All Began, NHS midwife Leah Hazard seeks to explore the organ she describes as 'woefully under-researched and misunderstood'. She shares what she has learnt from looking into the womb’s past, present and possible future.Actor and singer Cynthia Erivo discusses her role in the upcoming film, Luther: The Fallen Sun, where she appears opposite Idris Elba. She shares her experience working on the movie version of the musical Wicked, playing the lead role of Elphaba, her 2020 oscar-nominated performance as Harriet Tubman, and her new found liberation in expressing her bisexuality.Jo Cheetham was studying for a PhD and working as a nanny in London when she read news of an upcoming protest. Before she could talk herself out of it, Jo joined the No More Page 3 campaign team. We discuss her new memoir, Killjoy. Jo talks to us about the power of a grassroots campaign and everyday people doing extraordinary things.On Monday, the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Minimum Age) Act came into effect, raising the age of marriage and civil partnership to 18 in England and Wales. It's what campaigners against child and forced marriage have worked towards for many years. We reflect on this social change with two listeners, Judith and Jeanette who willingly got married at 16.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Surya Elango Editor: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. I'm Anita Rani. I'm going to take you through a carefully curated selection of some of the finest Woman's Hour interviews from over the week. Coming up, the actor, singer, songwriter and all-round South London superstar Cynthia Erivo on her role in the upcoming film Luther, the Fallen Son,

and the liberation she found in expressing her bisexuality. And it's the shape of a pair with the power to create life or indeed death in certain circumstances. What am I talking about? The womb. Plus, as this week marked a change

in the marriage laws in England and Wales, we hear from two Woman's Hour listeners on getting married willingly at 16. Did it work or was it a decision they came to regret? And all week we've been celebrating riot girls and campaigning women. We listen back to our interview with Jo Cheetham on joining the No More Page Three campaign team

growing up in Rotherham and the power of grassroots campaigns. But first... Dozens of schoolgirls in Iran have been admitted to hospital this week after being poisoned whilst at school, according to reports from an Iranian news agency. More than 1,000 students have been affected since November. They've suffered respiratory problems, nausea, dizziness and fatigue. Many Iranians suspect the poisonings are a deliberate attempt to force girls' schools to close and prevent them from going to school. The Iranian government has not

said whether it believes they're premeditated. While on Friday, I spoke to Azadeh Porzand, a human rights researcher, and Farinak Amidi, BBC correspondent. I started by asking Farinak, what do we know about what's happening to these schoolgirls? Basically, we really don't know much because there hasn't been a proper investigation into what has been happening. The poisoning started around three months ago. That was in November. And it started the first school that the incident took place in was in the city of Qom, which is a very conservative religious city. And it's known for being the center of religious studies and religious schools in Iran. In that first incident, 18 students were poisoned.

Then the second time, a couple of weeks after that, again, the same school was attacked. And then after that, it started spreading to other cities. Ardabil and other cities started spreading. And then I was reading a report by the daily newspaper Etemad in Iran, which was published in Iran. And they said that 58 schools in 10 different provinces have been attacked. But it's very interesting that this has been going on for three months. Parents have protested. They have been asking officials to investigate and look into what is happening. But nothing really has taken place.

And when you listen to what the officials are saying, either MPs or other officials, police chief, interior minister, health minister, you get a sense of confusion. You don't really get any kind of information or you cannot really map out what is happening. So we don't know what the gas is. That is very interesting that after all of these students, 1,000 students have been poisoned and not a blood sample has been taken. Nothing. You don't you cannot determine what the gas was, what caused poisoning or how did this gas get into the schools or who was behind it? Nothing is really clear. So what do we know then? How are these girls being poisoned? Have you spoken to anybody? Well, when you speak to, and I have to mention that it's so

difficult to speak to people in Iran. This is after one of the largest waves of protests and uprising in Iran since 1979. So the oppression in Iran and the censorship and the harassment by security forces is at its peak right now in Iran. So people are very scared to speak to journalists and journalists are all arrested. Most of the journalists that are independent are arrested in Iran at the moment. So it's very hard to get actually personal accounts and statements from people. I was able to speak to a couple of people. And what we are seeing, what they are reporting is that some strong, pungent smell fills the air. And after a while, students start getting sick. Some of them even report feeling a bit paralyzed in their legs and not being able to move. They feel dizzy, nauseous, and then they collapse. But what we also understand is that the symptoms go away mostly in 24 hours. Now, there are reports of some students saying that they have seen an object being thrown into the school from outside and then the smell comes. There are some of the students reports hearing something like a small explosion before the smell fills the air.

So but none of these can be verified independently. Is there any kind of investigation into this yet? What's happening? Well, yeah, the Islamic Republic claims that it's going to investigate that, you know, different authorities are, you know, claiming that the investigation has started. According to one of the news agencies affiliated with the Islamic Republic, I think yesterday, three individuals are arrested. You know, you see on their sort of propaganda TV stations that they interview, you know, it's clearly somebody has been intimidated and they interview them to say, oh, I was a truck driver and I was carrying oil and I neglected by leaving my car next to a school. So I think basically what it is, is that usual scenario of the Islamic Republic's regime of claiming investigations that are not adequate, are not independent.

And just simply is to distract the public and mostly for international consumption at this point. Do we know, do we have any idea who might be behind it, Azadeh? In my opinion, it doesn't matter who is directly behind it, because the intentionality at this point lies with the Islamic Republic of Iran. When we don't have enough information and evidence as human rights researchers, we have no choice but to look into precedence. And when you look at the precedents and the performance of the Islamic Republic, you know, you see a regime that is heavily anti-women and girls. And after especially the recent protests, extremely vulnerable to the power of women and their collective uprising, and in particular, the Gen Z women.

This is the severe consequences of what can happen. And the rebellion of these young girls, it got the attention of the world. Because, you know, people were being killed. Let's not forget 600 people, at least 600 people were shot dead on the streets of Tehran for protesting. And these girls so bravely were protesting in their schools. They kicked out officials of the government out of their schools. So it's interesting. A lot of people in Iran, when you go on social media and you see the reactions of people, the public, to these poisonings, they say that this is the revenge that the state is taking out on these girls.

What do you think? Well, I just cannot help but to remember the speeches of the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei in the past few months, in one of which he explicitly said, you know, these children, these girls who got involved in the uprisings, you know, they were just, it's out of naivete, and a little bit of punishment will fix them. You know, these are threats from like the higher, you know, authority of a very brutal regime. So I really, I really think we have to not dismiss the high probability of a speculation that this is indeed a systematic revenge. And usually when the leader Ali Khamenei gives such speeches, we do see such reactions against women. It was a few years ago back in Isfahan when the topic of hijab was really hot

and women were wearing their hijab a bit more loosely. And Isfahan is a traditional conservative society. Actually, it's where I come from. But then a wave of acid attacks started happening against women. So women were walking down the street and they were being sprayed with acid. And this came after, you know, high ranking officials and the leader were talking about the hijab and that women need to obey the rules and issues like that. So it's and again, right now that this is happening to the school girls, people are bringing up that incident as well, saying, where did you talk about investigations? Because back then they said, we are investigating. We are going to look into this. No one ever got arrested for those acid attacks. And the investigation really didn't go anywhere.

Is it working? Is it preventing girls from going to school? These poison attacks that we're seeing now. What's the response been? You know, very courageous tweets, for example, by some moms who are saying we are thinking with other moms to get together and start patrolling outside of school so that our kids can still go to school. So they're taking the initiative into their hands. It's incredible. Yeah, I spoke to a few mothers. Their daughters are not in schools that have been attacked, but they are worried. They are anxious. And they have this dilemma, but they are worried, they are anxious. And they have this dilemma because one of them has a son as well. And she was like, there's no way I'm going to keep my daughter at home and let my son go to school because this is actually

what certain people want. The radicals, the hardliners, super conservatives, ultra conservatives, that's what they want. They want our girls to stay at home and the boys to go to school. And you say, what do they want? This is a question that comes up time and time again. What is it that they want? What's the end game here for women? I think when you look at this system, this regime since 1979, from the beginning that they took power, their goal and all of their policies was directed at marginalizing women and getting them back to home. So the first thing that Ayatollah Khomeini did was to revoke the

Family Protection Act that gave women power in marriage, gave them right to divorce, made them not equal, but semi-equal to their partner, to their husband. That was the first thing that was revoked. Then the mandatory hijab came. So always the policies have been towards marginalising women. So maybe this is actually what they are looking for. I just wonder what the atmosphere must be like.

There must be a climate of fear. Yeah, I mean, fear, certainly, and this is an intimidation technique. So to a degree, it may be serving its purpose. But I still think that even though these protests that we saw since September are not on the street, like in high numbers, I don't think the protest movement has died. And this is a protest movement led by women. And so I think the spirit of protest, of grievances, of wanting change is as strong as ever. So I really see, I think, you know, this spirit stronger than the fear element at the moment. And Azada, you grew up in Iran. How does it compare to your experience of being a young girl going to school? I did grow up in Iran and I grew up, I mean, I was born into a family of activists. So I was in, you know, my parents were in and out of jail. They had threatened to harm me if my parents continued their work.

And I remember how the schools that I used to go to were so supportive of this threat. A couple of times even my school had to go into lockdown only because of me and many parents. Even some of the parents who would wear the complete veil, sometimes they would be taking care of me when my mom was in jail. They would even bring me a chador like the full veil when I had to go see my mom at the Revolutionary Court. So, you know, yes, these schools are highly ideological. You know, you as a seven-year-old have to wear a full veil to go to school. The history that you read is distorted. You know, the religious studies that you read are much more than you should be exposed to. But at a grassroots level, school I think in many ways is where the coalescence of parents, of children happens. And I think the Islamic Republic has realised

this is a political hub more than they had hoped for. So they're fearing schoolgirls? Yeah. During the cultural revolution soon after the Islamic Republic was established, they felt free to close down universities and cleanse them of non-Islamic elements. The Cultural Revolution. Yeah, the Cultural Revolution. And so I think that now it has gone into schools and it's going to be a battleground for women. I really think so. Human rights researcher Azadeh Pozand and BBC correspondent Farinak Amidi speaking to me on

Friday's programme. The womb, an organ, a muscle, miraculous, misunderstood. Let's talk about it. Womb, the inside story of where we all began is a new book by Leah Hazard, a practicing NHS midwife. Within the book, Leah looks to explore the womb, an organ she describes as woefully under-researched and misunderstood. Nuala started by asking her why she describes the womb as a fist. Well, I think it's a really powerful image and it's apt because it's an incredibly powerful organ. You know, this is the only organ in our body that has the power to create a new organ within itself, the placenta, and also a new life. And it has to have the capability to expand to many times its original size and then to contract. And yes, unfortunately, sometimes it can bring death as well as life. So I think the clenched fist really is apt. Yeah, I think it's

very appropriate for what this organ can do. You are a practicing midwife. What was the biggest surprise about the uterus when you started training? I think possibly the thing that's been most surprising to me is how, in spite of all our attempts to manage the uterus and what it does and how it behaves, it's still incredibly misunderstood and unpredictable. Birth is always a surprise. Any woman or person with a womb going through their gynecological life will cope with all kinds of surprises. Pain, bleeding, loss, joy, infertility, menopause, sometimes transition, gender changes. And, you know, it's just an endlessly surprising organ. One thing that surprised me when I was reading your book

is that when a female baby is born, sometimes their nappy can be streaked with a little blood. Yeah, absolutely true. And this is a completely normal physiological event for which most parents are completely unprepared. And what happens is when that little female baby is inside its mother, it absorbs some of that mother's sex hormones just from being in that environment. she goes through basically what's a withdrawal bleed so it's almost like a mini period except obviously she hasn't released an egg she hasn't ovulated so when I was working in the postnatal wards quite often parents would approach me in a state of panic

because they could see a little bit of blood in their child's nappy and they would say you know what is this and be really distressed but it's a normal physiological event for female infants and this is a theme that runs through the whole book. You know, the uterus does all kinds of amazing and also very mundane, normal physiological things for which we are entirely unprepared. What about, this was a new term for me as well, menstrual effluent. So I'm not saying menstrual blood there, because it's not all blood, as I

learned. No, it isn't. And this was a surprise to me. I mean, you've asked me what's surprising. I have to say, even though I kind of thought of myself as a bit of an expert, probably 80% of what I found in the book was a surprise to me. And on the subject of menstrual effluent, I was speaking to a really fascinating researcher in America who's doing great work on endometriosis and its causes. And she and many of her colleagues use the term menstrual effluent rather than blood because what comes out during a period isn't just red blood cells, it's other kinds of tissue, it's mucous membrane, it's immune cells. And each person's menstrual effluent, which just means a substance that literally flows out, has its own unique biochemical

fingerprint. And if we can better understand and analyse that fingerprint, that may in turn lead to better, less interventionist ways of diagnosing things like endometriosis, possibly uterine cancer, and really could completely revolutionise healthcare. But people have not been studying the lining of the womb that comes each month. And I was reading that they thought there'd be too much of a yuck factor about women handing it over, for example, as a specimen, but they were proven wrong. They were absolutely proven conclusively wrong. So this again was this Dr. Christine Metz in America who is running a trial called

the ROSE trial. It's about trying to diagnose endometriosis by analysing menstrual blood. And when she went to funding bodies to try and get some money, some grant money to do this work, she basically was met with the yuck factor, as she calls it, with the predominantly male funders just thought, this is disgusting. Not only do we not really want to fund this, but women won't actually want to collect their own menstrual flow and send it to you because they'll be yucked out as well. And what Dr. Metz found is that nothing could be further from the truth. Women actually were desperately keen to contribute to this research, to collect their own menstrual flood with special cups or pads to send it in for analysis. You know, they filled out reams of paperwork to be able to take part in the study as well. So, you know, the enthusiasm is

there. Excuse me, we want to understand our bodies. So the people that hold the purse strings for this research really need to sort of embrace that enthusiasm as well. Fascinating as well that there could even perhaps be a smart tampon that could pick up on what's inside us or what we should be thinking about. Yeah, not only could there be a smart tampon, there is a smart tampon. So this technology I found is being developed again in America and essentially it would analyse certain sort of biochemical factors in your menstrual blood that's collected by the tampon, and then send that information to an app on your phone, which then could potentially collect and analyse that data and send it to your healthcare provider. Now, when we think about the fact that women and people with wombs

go through really incredibly painful and difficult diagnostic procedures like hysteroscopy and things like that, just to be able to get this information from a tampon is phenomenal and that could become a reality. And of course, there's privacy questions, which we could get into. It could be a whole other discussion about some of those more futuristic aspects. But I want to go back to basics, perhaps, back to babies. The uterus is often seen as a backdrop to conception. But your research and the people you're speaking to says it could play an

active role in conception. Peristalsis is that, we often think about that as kind of a swallowing motion or a motion that goes down through your intestines. But you're thinking about it when it comes to the uterus. Yes, so this was hugely surprising to me because I was raised, as most of us were, with this idea that when it comes to conception, the sperm plays this very active, heroic, masculine, questing role and sort of like finds its way to the egg, which is just this passive thing and the womb doesn't even get a look in. But actually, a Spanish scientist I spoke to is studying these tiny little wave-like motions that happen within the lining of the womb

during orgasm, actually. And what she found is that during orgasm and also just during sort of everyday life, there is a peristaltic motion that helps to suck the sperm into the womb. So actually, the uterus is playing a really active role and some other research that I was looking at shows that in the cervix, in the neck of the womb, there are also these little pockets or crypts. Oh this is fascinating. Yeah I mean just amazing. These little crypts can potentially hold sperm there until it's the optimal time for them to be released further up the uterus to fertilise the egg. Some of the words, hostile or irritable uterus, incompetent cervix.

Yeah, I'm sure many of your listeners will have heard these epithets or, you know, unfortunately been on the receiving end of them. Because as women and people with booms, when we go through our gynaecological lives, you know, things happen that aren't always favourable or desirable. And, you know, a lot of medics throw around these terms like, oh, you've got a hostile uterus, that's why you can't conceive, or your labour took so long because your contractions were ineffective, you failed to progress and these kinds of things, or you've got an incompetent cervix, which opened too soon, that's why you lost your baby and yes although these terms are all trying to describe things that have happened um you know there's no other field of

medicine where we would um tolerate such negative um kind of personalized language about physiological events so there's a part in my book where i really kind of rail against that and i hope that this kind of language becomes a thing of the past. The midwife and author Lea Hazard speaking to Nuala there. The actor, singer, songwriter and all round South London superstar Cynthia Erivo joined us on Woman's Hour earlier this week to talk about her role as DCI Adet Rain in the upcoming film Luther, the Fallen Son. Cynthia collected a Grammy, Tony and an Emmy for her role in The Color Purple on Broadway in 2017 and was Oscar nominated for

her portrayal of American abolitionist Harriet Tubman in the movie Harriet in 2020. As well as acting opposite Idris Elba in the new film Luther, which premieres globally on the 10th of March on Netflix, Cynthia is also currently making the movie version of the musical Wicked in the lead role of Elphaba. Nuala started by asking Cynthia what drew her to DCI Rain's complicated character. That was the reason I loved her. I think there was this sort of, you know, on the outset you think that she's sort of, it's all black and white for her. There's no grey no gray area one it's good or evil and there's nothing in between and and as you get to know her and as you move through through the film you realize that she has to come to terms with the

fact that there is a gray area and sometimes we all have to step into it and and i think that her discovering that she is both darkness and light um is just a really fun thing to discover myself and a really fun thing to play. I love the fact that she is, you know, tough without really needing to be tough. I love the fact that she has the power in the room without having to force it on anyone. And it was fun to play with those sort of ebbs and flows

and the colours of that. It was great to do. Let's listen to a little of her now. Earliest crime goes back 11 years. The most recent dates back to last year. So where were the bodies stored in the interim and who would have the kind of space, time or money to do something like that?

This has been carefully planned and executed over a number of years, so there'll be a lot of data to pass. But you find me one point of commonality between these victims, just one, and you'll have our killer. Yes, ma'am. Let's get to it. Find me that connection.

I guess, Cynthia Erivo, as DCI Odette Raine. Your character is put under severe pressure, I think it's fair to say, without giving away the plot, but she keeps it together the whole time. Was there anybody from your life that you draw on to play her? Oh, there's a few women, actually.

I think she's an amalgamation of different women that I've met and different people that I know, friends and family. But I think she just sort of was created by Neil's wonderful writing. You kind of want to, you know, there's the mother in her and then there's the businesswoman and there's the fighter. And it's all sort of like different people that I've met and different people that I know. And then a bit of me, I think. And I think my want to survive as well I think is sort of

injected into her she's she's kind of brilliant I really enjoyed her different you have so many aspects uh to your career people will know you for singing acting um West End Broadway could be a TV show or a massive film of course do you Do you have a favorite? A favorite? No, I think what's really fun now is that I get to combine all of those things in one. So Wicked is sort of like a dream come true just because it's got everything in it. And I love doing Luther

because that also was like everything, physical, movement, I'm running around. I'm also diving into drama. So whenever I can play more than one thing, more than one facet of myself, then I'm more than in. I love it. And of course, going in a completely different direction was playing the title character in the film Harriet. That's the story of Harriet Tubman, the American abolitionist. Did it feel like a responsibility to play that figure that is an icon for so many? Yeah, it was a huge responsibility. And from the very beginning, the director and I, Casey Lemon, knew that we were taking on something that was really big and really special.

And we wanted to treat it with care and in love and we took every day step by step and worked through it and it was sometimes very very tough and other times very very joyful but it was a really enlightening experience for me. And with that you were double nominated for Harriet, Oscar nominated in 2020. But you're just an Oscar away from this coveted EGOT, as people say. So Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and a Tony. I know when I might put my bet on, but what's your best bet on when you're going to complete that set? And I say when, not if.

I have no idea. I don't know because things can change and things can shift and no one really knows what's going to happen. But your lips are God's ears and thank you for even putting them in the universe. But as we look at your career, it's so vast and you've done so much to break down barriers. Is there any particular role that you're intensely proud of in expanding representation? I'm really proud of all of them, to be honest. I pick really, really specifically. I pick really carefully because I tend to go for the roles that I haven't met before. One of the reasons I love this role is because I had rarely seen black women in those spaces as,

as a DCI in places of power and not having to ask for it necessarily, just having it. I thought there was something really special about that. And then obviously with Harriet, it was a really special role to play and, and it was a special woman to learn about. And there was such history and ancestry in that, that it just was a special thing. I pick all of these roles really special,

really particularly. I did a small TV role in a series called Raw. And I liked that because it was horror, like actual horror. And this woman was all over the place and it was happening to her. And I had never seen, like actual horror. And this woman was all over the place and it was happening to her. And I had never seen anything like that before. And I think what I try to do is pick roles

that wouldn't necessarily on the outlook be a face like mine playing them. And hopefully it opens the doors a bit more for more of us. Beautiful face like yours. I have to tell our listeners if they're not looking yet. There's been a lot of discussion really about the importance of representation in awards and nominations so much whether we talk about the BAFTAs or the Oscars. What's your view of it now? Do you think there's been significant progress?

For the nominations, nominations yes for the wins maybe not the nominations are changing the way the nominations look are changing the way the wins are aren't necessarily making leaps and bounds we're moving forward but we're still we're still not we're still not shifted yet what why why is there still that hill to climb why do you think it's not translating into the winds i don't know i mean i think sometimes i think sometimes there aren't the roles to even be seen i think that sometimes well i i think that sometimes the the films that are picked to move to be seen don't necessarily have leading ladies that are black always. Or there are very few of those roles going around.

There are very few of them that get seen by larger audiences. And so there are very few of them that get nominated. It starts there, really. It starts at studio level. It starts at casting level. And if the casting doesn't necessarily go to us or anyone of color then you're not going to see them during award season because they were never made so you feel in the right direction but still a lot further to go

yeah we've got lots of work to do still um i want to turn back to some of your singing for a moment uh and your your stunts and your workouts as we were talking about you do these strenuous workouts and on instagram people can watch them and you do them while singing is that for added endurance training no it's because i enjoy it i like music and i listen to it when i'm working out and i can't help but sing along and it's just a like an added bonus that it helps with my lungs. I just enjoy myself. I don't necessarily think I sound great when I'm doing it, but I feel good when I am. So I just kind of have fun. Probably better than the average bear.

But at 3.40 in the morning was one I was looking at recently. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my pickups are so early in the morning that the only time I can get it done is earlier than that. And so because I, for me, the way to get my day started is to work out, I have no choice but to do it as early as I'm doing it. And so that way I can move through the day focused and energetically. Yeah. Love it. You did sing Staying With singing um you sang a device for dame

Julie Andrews as she won a life uh achievement award what was that like that was phenomenal it was amazing she was right opposite me and and um at the end she uh thanked me and blew me a kiss and I thought that was the end of it that was was happy enough after that. And then a couple of months later, I received a letter from her thanking me for doing that performance to her. And I framed the letter because that was possibly one of the biggest dreams ever to come true.

It was really cool. I just knew she'd have wonderful manners. I mean, impeccable. Yeah, that's what we'd expect. But you came out as bisexual last year. How significant was that for you? If you want to talk us through the decision and reaction? not hide another aspect of myself that was taking up room. And letting that go meant that there was more room to be creative and more room to just be. It's meant that I can just sort of exist as myself fully. And I really enjoy doing that. Yeah. Did you feel a difference or an impact on your work from when you came out? I did. I think it's not that you care less about, you care more about the work

and you care less about what everyone thinks about you. That's what sort of happened to me. I think I just got to be myself as much as I could be. I think I show up now fully as who I am. And it's really refreshing. I think that's the thing I noticed the most about. And it meant that I could walk into work and just be. And now all of the energy is about my work

and about the people I love. It's all in the right place now, you know. The fabulous Cynthia Erivo. Still to come on the programme, with the Marriage and Civil Partnership Minimum Age Act coming into effect earlier this week, raising the age of marriage and civil partnerships to 18 in England and Wales, we hear from two Woman's Hour listeners

on what it was like to get married at 16. And we love to hear from you on the programme, so do get in touch. You can email me by going to our website. And remember, you can listen to Woman's Hour any hour of the week via the BBC Sounds app. Now, Jo Cheetham spent her childhood in a council house in Rotherham, writing poems and drawing clothes on page three models. Later, she was a long way from home studying for a PhD, working as a nanny in London,

when she read the news of an upcoming protest. Before she could talk herself out of it, Jo had officially joined the No More Page Three campaign team. Over three years, she protested up and down the country, made an unlikely group of friends ranging from 16 to 60 that would become her closest confidants and allies. She also had to contend with trolls, give a group performance on the West End stage and speak at the Scottish Parliament. In her brilliant memoir Killjoy, Jo shares her story

and the power of a grassroots campaign. She joined me in the studio for Thursday's programme and I started by asking Jo what it was like growing up as a young girl in Rotherham. Well, growing up in Rotherham in the 80s, it wasn't a great time to be a girl, to be honest. You know, my dad bought the sun. Everybody's dad bought the sun. I saw page three absolutely everywhere from a very young age. You know, it was in the house. It was at school. It was at the chip shop. Can you remember when you buy chips and it would be wrapped in newspaper? And you'd get it there even on your chips not a surprise yeah I know right it was um you know it was on the bus it was the page three calendar was in the doctor's waiting room it was behind the counter at the butcher's I saw it absolutely everywhere I went

and yeah I just grow up grow up seeing um these working class young women sort of semi-naked in the paper and it always just felt a little bit weird to me. You know when I was very young I would draw clothes on the models because I thought well they must be cold, why are they naked when everybody else has got clothes on and yeah then when I got a little bit older, you know, and I started to think about why this was in the paper, it used to make me feel really uncomfortable. And you wanted to leave Rotherham and go to university. Was that expected of you though? Absolutely not. The school careers advisor, when I told him I wanted to go to university, he pretty much said to me, well, you know, you'll end up getting married and having kids. So it'll be a waste of money.

You know, it's a waste of money for a girl like you. And that actually just made me really determined to go to university just to prove him wrong. So, yeah, I mean, nobody in my family had ever been to university. I didn't know anybody who'd been to university. It just wasn't expected at all. So how did you get there? Well, it took a really long time. So I left school, you know, I did a load of different jobs,

did my A-levels. I studied locally so I could live at home while I was at university in Sheffield. And then I just saved up money. I got a scholarship to study in London. And I moved down here when I was about 29 to do an MA. And it was quite a culture shock, to be honest. In what way? So my university was really prestigious. And the other students were mainly privately educated. They were very clever.

Is this when you were, is this pre-PhD? Yeah, so I came down to London to do an MA and then I stayed on to do a PhD. Clever. Oh, thanks. In art history? Yes, which again is an unusual choice. I didn't know it was sort of a typical sort of posh degree to do. I had no idea.

I just thought I like art and I like history. What did your family think of you coming to London to study art history? My dad was excited that I was going to university because, you know, there was no expectation I would do that. And he thought it was a good thing to do. My mum just said, oh, Joanne, they won't like you. You're going to be too different. You're not going to like it. You know, do something else.

You don't have to go. And it really was a shock. I felt really out of place. The other students were so clever. They were very wealthy. They all just seemed so tall with, like, really good teeth, you know, and they were named after Shakespearean characters. And I felt like some kind of Dickensian urchin. I felt short and common and stupid. And a lot of people took the mickey out of me. You talk about going to a conference where you had to make a speech and you'd been practicing it by using the ironing board as a make-do lectern, as you do. Very good imagery. And then you ran away. You didn't do the speech.

You bottled it. I put so much work in. I wanted to explore that sort of imposter syndrome. Even now you're saying they were tall with great teeth. Yeah, they were. I can picture them. But that imposter syndrome was really deeply embedded in teeth. Yeah, they were. I can picture them. But that imposter syndrome was really deeply embedded in you. Yeah, I didn't feel like I belonged in that kind of academic

environment at all. And I just walked into the conference. And yeah, everybody just seems so clever and so articulate. And they were dressed differently. You know, I was wearing like a old dress from H&M. They were all in skirt suits. The men were in linen trousers. All the men seemed to be called Julian. There was just a certain kind of person who was there and I was not that kind of person. And I was there, you know, I was ready to speak.

And I just felt like I couldn't breathe. I ran out of there and just ran home. So how did you get involved with the No More Page Three campaign? You're the young girl drawing the No More Page Three campaign? You're the young girl drawing clothes on the page three models and you find yourself in this world where you are alien to everyone around you. What did finding that campaign do for you? How did you find it and how did it change? So I read about it in a newspaper when I was in London in the middle of all of this imposter syndrome, basically. And it just struck a chord with me. And I just remembered everything about my childhood and everything about how I'd felt seeing Page 3 growing up.

And I actually, I went to a protest, the first protest I've ever been to in my whole life. That was just after I'd run away from that conference and my self-esteem was at an all-time low. And I just went to this protest and met Lucy, who'd started the campaign. And we just really hit it off. And from that point, we stayed in touch. And then I ended up joining the team. How self-conscious were you at the protest? Oh, so self-conscious.

I hated it more than anything. Why? There was a press photographer there. And she was like shouting instructions, you know, look angry, walk towards me, looking fierce, holding the sign. And I just forgot how to walk. You know, when you feel really self-conscious, I can't even remember how to walk. I sort of like trip-trapped towards her like a horse. I didn't know what I was doing. It was really horrible. I hated it. But you did find your voice eventually. You ended up speaking at the Scottish Parliament. How did that come about? How did you find your voice to be able to speak out it's interesting because I feel like rather than finding a voice I was trying to recover the one I'd lost yeah I feel like when I was a kid I knew exactly

how I felt about everything I knew what I wanted and how to ask for it and then you grow up and sort of life kind of beats that out of you particularly if you're a girl right and yeah I just wanted to get back to that person that I used to be and that's what I was trying to do. And your grandma was an inspiration? Yeah she was an absolutely amazing person you know my granddad died before I was born and she'd been such a good role model such an independent woman always did whatever she wanted she was very assertive so yeah she was a great role model, such an independent woman, always did whatever she wanted. She was very assertive. So, yeah, she was a great role model for me.

So just how embedded did you become in the campaign? How much of your life did it take over? It took over everything for two and a half years. I mean, there was me and to begin with about six other volunteers. None of us had any experience of campaigning at all. We didn't have any money. We didn't have a single idea what we were doing. We were kind of making it up as we went along.

And it had to slot in, you know, in between our busy lives. You know, some of them would be taking the kids to school and talking on the phone to a journalist at the same time. And we were doing lots of jobs and caring for relatives and stuff like that. It kind of filtered in between every bit of spare time that we had for that two and a half years. And did that take a toll? Yeah, it was absolutely exhausting.

And we got a lot of trolls as well. There was a lot of abuse online. Like what? I mean, anyone who speaks out about any sort of feminist issue, they get a lot of trolls online. And we would have so much abuse on a daily basis that it just became normal. We were used to it.

We were totally used to it. I mean, I guess that's why you called the book Killjoy, right? Yes, because we were all killjoys. What kinds of things were you told? What sort of stuff were you reading being said about you? Oh, I mean, there was the nicer end of the scale, which is that we're, you know, Puritans and that we're against nudity and, yeah, that we're killjoys,

that we don't know how to have a laugh and that it's no fun. But then at the other end of the scale, they were like rape threats, death threats, really serious, unpleasant, graphic messages. So what keeps you going then? Is it the solidarity between all of you? Yeah, we had this amazing group. We all really supported each other

and we laughed about it as well as much as we could. I mean, sometimes you couldn't laugh about it but you know laughing at these kinds of messages it gave us some kind of power over it I suppose. And how important was class within the group and the friendship that you've you formed? It was really interesting because most of the people who were on the team were working class women and it mattered to us because we'd grown up seeing, you know, these newspapers every day. We'd all grown up with the sun in our homes.

And because they were always, well, almost always, working class young women in the newspaper, it was kind of sold to us as empowerment. You know, it was like this was the best you could hope for as a working class woman to have this kind of lifestyle and this kind of fame and to have this kind of look. We were supposed to aspire to that. So you found your crew. Yeah.

Yeah. But it was you got a lot of support from MPs, Claire Short, Caroline Lucas and from the Girl Guides. How much did this help the cause? Massively. Really, I think things turned a corner when the Girl Guides got involved, because they were one of the first organisations to formally support the campaign. And it just kind of, it galvanised us and it gave us a purpose as well to have these incredible young women speaking out about these issues that still really mattered to them. To have this younger generation involved, it just really spurred us on. And it built momentum. Yeah, it did.

Got to the Welsh Assembly, Scottish Parliament backed you, and then the Irish sun stopped page three. How did it feel to have made that change? It felt amazing. That felt amazing. And at that point, we really were very optimistic that the sun in the uk would follow suit and drop the topless images it really gave us something to work towards and we were really hopeful at that point and then and then they did drop page three in january 2015 but then they brought it back so they got rid of the images and then two days later they brought it back and said it was all a joke. And how did that,

you must have all taken that quite personally. You know what, we kind of expected some kind of stunt because it's the sun and they'd never really acknowledged that the campaign exists, you know, and we knew that they might try some kind of stunt like this so we weren't massively surprised but we were really tired we were exhausted with all the ups and downs tired

yes but they were a force I mean it is a brilliant read um has it changed your writing about the experience yes yeah in what way because it's reminded me that we've kind of all got more power than we think we have and that it can feel overwhelming that there's so much to do in the world. But if you just try, just try one thing, it might work and you might have a good time doing it. Great advice from the author Jo Cheetham there speaking to me about her memoir, Killjoy. Now, on Monday, the Marriage and Civil Partnership Minimum Age Act

came into effect. The Act raises the age of marriage and civil partnerships to 18 in England and Wales, which means 16 to 17-year-olds will no longer be able to marry or enter a civil partnership under any circumstances, including with parental or judicial consent. The changes do not apply in Scotland and Northern Ireland, where the minimum age for marriage will remain 16. In Northern Ireland, parental consent is required for those under 18, but not in Scotland.

Ministers in Northern Ireland have previously said they plan to increase the minimum age of marriage to 18, but with the devolved government not currently functioning, legislation cannot be brought forward. But what's happening in England and Wales is a huge social change that campaigners like Pezi Mahmood have worked on for a very long time to stop child marriage. I was married at age 16 and it was a really unique and special time in my life. I was about to head off to college and I was coerced into a child marriage

and this was to a man very much older than me. He was almost twice my age, a pretty much complete stranger to me. And as I say, it was such an important time in my childhood, in my development, and that hindered so much of it, you know, my access to education and the opportunities that should have been there for a young person my age. And about six months before that, I had also seen my sister, Banaz, who was 17 at the time, also coerced into a child marriage. So I'd seen her go through it and then it was almost my turn. But a very confusing thing to go through, something that no 16-year-old should have to go through. That was Pezi Mahmood speaking to Five Live this week, while the law hopes to put an end to stories like hers. Of course, we know that overall, the age at which people get married

has gone up considerably in the last few decades, and most people get married in their 30s now. We thought it'd be interesting to look back at the experiences of some of you, though, who got married willingly at 16. And so we asked you to get in touch with your experiences. Was it a success or was it a decision you came to regret? Are you still in that relationship or did it end quickly? Well, many of you did send messages in, including Judith and Jeanette. They joined Nuala on Monday's programme to tell us what it was like to say, I do, at such a young age.

Nuala started by asking Judith why she decided to get married at the tender age of 16. My parents were divorced when I was two or three year old and my mother did a sterling job of raising me as a single parent and she met a lovely chap when I was around about 11 who she married and my stepfather suffered from paranoid schizophrenia, which was really quite difficult for everybody, for all of us involved in that situation. I did meet a chap who was older than me, and I guess I saw him as a way of escape from a difficult situation. I left home before I did my O-levels, my GCSEs. And at the age of 16, I found that I didn't have any money, any access to money, and I didn't have any accommodation. And the only way I could get either of those was actually by

getting married at 16, which enabled me to get into the benefit system and for me to receive a council house. And that's 40 years ago, but that's how and why I got married when I was 16. And the marriage, how did it go? It didn't last, it lasted for around about three years. It wasn't in any way an unpleasant marriage but I was just far, far too young and I feel at the time that I feel now there are far more options available for people of that age who find themselves in difficult circumstances than there were when I was 16. And for me, it was it worked. It was it provided what I needed at the time.

But it's definitely not something that I would recommend or suggest to any other 16 year old, because let's be honest, we are. Although we do think we know everything at 16, well, I certainly did, you don't really. And you are very vulnerable and very open to things not going well. I mentioned there was a lot of messages coming in. One, I was married before the age of 17 to someone I believed was the love of my life. 13 months later, he walked out and left me. I think we're too inexperienced to deal with conflict. Jeanette

what about you? Your story. Well again quite similar circumstances I mean we both came back from difficult backgrounds I think that the and yes we were

extremely young but at the same time, we were in love. And if I'd have told my 16-year-old self I'd still be married 40 years later, I would never have believed it because, my goodness, we had some really tough times. And I agree with Margaret in the fact that I do think that kids these days aren't as prepared. Even though, yes, again, at 16 years old, I thought I knew everything. I knew absolutely nothing. nothing um but in the same token um i'm very much for this bill because kids of today are not as life skill prepared at all um and as for coercion um you know i mean that, that's a whole different set of complexities.

Yes. You know, kids of 16 these days should never be able to be forced into a marriage. I was lucky, as I said. It was your husband, Dave, who messaged us, Jeanette. Let me read a little of what he said. My wife, Jeanette, was a month short of 17 and I was a month short of 21 when we married. We knew each other for 10 months and she was three months pregnant. Nobody gave us a chance of staying the course. I'm happy to say we're celebrating our 40th anniversary in May.

Three grown up children, five grandchildren. Not saying it's been plain sailing all the way but it worked out between us. What does it feel like to hear those words? It's lovely. After all these years, you know, we are still very supportive of each other and we still love each other,

which is pretty remarkable in this day and age. You have a daughter. What would you have told her if she came to you and said, I want to get married at 16? Absolutely not. But hang on, hang on, it worked out.

I know, but it's different. It's about individuals and how mature they are, how they're prepared for such a big commitment, because it's a massive commitment. You were pregnant, I understand, Jeanette, when you were getting married. What did people say, friends, family? Was it expected of you to get married?

At that point, my parents went all modern on me and said, we're not going to allow you to get married. You can have the baby and mum will bring it up. And we said, absolutely no way, we'd have run away. You would have run away. Yeah, I mean, getting pregnant was not a mistake. It was an intention. And what about you, Judith? What was the reaction? Everybody was really shocked.

It was, for me, I wasn't pregnant. Funnily enough, actually, my mother was, my mum was actually eight months pregnant with my sister. The two of us, when I got married. Everybody was surprised. Everybody thought it was really quite irrational. I lost contact with my friends at school. It was a really odd thing to do. I'd been very clever at school.

It was anticipated that I'd go on to university or at least to go on and do my A-levels. And I wasn't in a position to do that. So for me, I felt like it took me outwith of my normal group of family and friends and set me up in a very different life. Now, I was very lucky to be surrounded by some very good friends and some very good people who have kept me clear in my life and seen me become successful. But it was it was a really odd decision. Not one of my school friends attended my wedding. Oh, I think that's quite telling, isn't it? Absolutely. I was an outcast. And at the time, mental illness and mental health was completely,

it just not talked about. Jeanette, you're celebrating your 40th wedding anniversary this year. What are the plans? And what is the secret to a happy marriage? You know, a lot of give and take and listening to each other and just being there for each other, being supportive. I didn't intend 40 years ago to still be here, but hey, we're still here. Listeners, Jeanette and Judith. Well, a lot of you did get in touch over the week about raising the minimum age of marriage from 16 to 18. Someone anonymous got in touch to say,

I was married at 16. It lasted three years. I'm 54 now. I've subsequently been successful in my life from a very challenging start. Julia emailed to say, I didn't get married at 16, though I was planning to marry my 17 year old first boyfriend at the time. Just wanted to say that girls who married at 16 in those days, the so-called swinging 60s, were usually pregnant. In the language of the time, they had to get married. All of us knew girls this happened to, which may be news to younger people who think the 60s were the decade of free love. Thankfully, the stigma of single motherhood is gone. That's all from me. Don't forget to tune in to Woman's Hour on Monday to hear world-famous education activist and the youngest ever Nobel Prize laureate Malala Yousafzai

on turning her attention to Hollywood. Is there anything she can't do? I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.