Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Jacinda Ardern, Women leaving teaching, Friendships with exes

Episode Date: December 6, 2025

When Jacinda Ardern became Prime Minister of New Zealand in 2017 at the age of 37, she was the youngest female head of government in the world. She also made history as only the second elected leader to give birth while in office. She resigned in 2023 after more than five years in post saying she no longer had enough in the tank and, since then, has engaged in global work focused on empathy in leadership and the prevention of online extremism. As a new documentary film, Prime Minister, is out in cinemas now, Jacinda talks to Kylie Pentelow.The government has just unveiled its new HIV Action Plan with the stated goal of tackling stigma and to end transmissions in England by 2030. Public Health Minister Ashley Dalton discusses the policy along with Ellie Harrison, who was diagnosed HIV positive when she was 21.Are friendships with exes a bad idea or a sign of growing up? Journalist Olivia Petter and comedian Rosie Wilby join Nuala McGovern to explore how relationships with ex-partners evolve after a breakup, and why staying in touch can look different in straight and LGBTQ+ communities.Columnist Sarah Vine started losing her hair as a teenager and was eventually diagnosed with female pattern baldness, a hormonal condition. But now she has decided, after 15 years of wearing wigs, to reveal her own hair on the front cover of a national newspaper. She speaks about her decision to bare all.We examine new data that reveals the number of teachers leaving the profession after becoming parents. We explore why, and what’s being done about it. Emma Shepherd is the founder of the Maternity Teacher Paternity Teacher Project and Branwen Jeffries is the BBC's Education Editor.Do you like everything to be perfect for dinner party hosting – the spotless house, the elaborate menu, the Instagram-worthy table setting? But what if the secret to a great dinner party isn’t perfection, but scruffy hosting – a trend that is apparently transforming the way we gather together and makes stress-free dinner parties more attainable - perhaps a one-pot dinner, mismatched cutlery, toys under the table or children running around screaming. Helen Thorn, Comedian, Podcaster and one half of Scummy Mummies tells Nuala why she embraces this type of hosting.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Dianne McGregor

Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up, the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern, on compassion in leadership. Plus, why are so many teachers leaving the profession after having children? Also, can you really be friends with your ex? We'll be finding out. Plus, we'll be discussing hair loss. After 15 years of wearing a wig, columnist Sarah Vine has gone public with her real hair. She explains why. And the trend of scruffy dinner party hosting, is it the secret to stress-free socialising?

But first, on Monday's World AIDS Day, the government unveiled its new HIV action plan with the stated goal of tackling the stigma around HIV and ending transmissions in England by 2030. A report published by the Women in Equality's Select Committee last month found HIV diagnosis among women who were exposed through sex with men were up 26% compared to 2019, whereas for men exposed through sex with men, the figures are down 35%. Claire McDonald's spoke to Ellie Harrison,

who was diagnosed HIV positive when she was just 21, and also to public health minister, Ashley Dalton, about the action plan. One of the things that we've identified in this new action plan is how important it is to make sure that services are gender-specific and targeted and accessible to people from different groups. Because we are seeing a decline in HIV transmissions, but has been highlighted, there are some alarming statistics in terms of women, and particularly in terms of black African women. So we've got our new action plan.

It's backed by £170 million. So this is actual action and targeted on more testing. and reducing stigma and making sure that our services can actually meet the needs of the people that need them. What's the action plan then? So what's different from today? Okay. I mean, one of the biggest things that we've put in place, which we've never had before, we've got the very first plan for retention and re-engagement. So there are a number of people that may get their diagnosis and find their HIV positive. But for one reason or another, they fall out of care. I've spoken to women who say it's the stigma. It's the difficulty being able to access the services.

the stigma in their communities. So really focusing on re-engaging people that have been previously lost to care, including women, is going to be a really core tenant of this action plan because our ambition is is to stop new transmissions by 2030. And to do that,

we really need to make sure that we're reaching all the parts of the community to make sure that people can access the treatment and the services because treatment, we've come such a long way. You know, treatment now means that if you're HIV positive, you can live a relatively normal life with a normal lifespan and a very healthy one. And you can also take medication that means that you can't pass on the virus to

others. Access to PrEP is much broader than it used to be, but we need to massively increase access to PrEP, particularly for women. So we estimate that around fewer than half the women that would benefit from taking PrEP are actually accessing PrEP at the moment. And PrEP is something that you would take. Why? What is it? So PrEP is a drug that prevents somebody from, well, significantly reduces to the point of preventing somebody from contracting HIV. So maybe your partner is HIV positive. They might be on medication. It makes the virus undetectable, which is great.

But you can also take PrEP to also, like, increase your protection and prevent you from contracting HIV. So it's a drug that people use, particularly if they have a partner that's HIV positive or they have a lifestyle that puts them at greater risk. risk. Ellie, let's bring you in now. Thanks so much for joining us. You were diagnosed in 2018 at the age of 21. What's your story? Yeah, so back in 2018, I'd done a placement year for university, so I was about to go back to my final year. It was kind of, if I'm honest, having the best time. I was in a long-time relationship. I was, because I was moving back to go to university, we were going to go long distance, and I kind of felt like it was going to fall apart. So I made the decision to just order a home test, had no symptoms. So I wasn't expecting it to

come back as having anything positive. So obviously two weeks later, it was a bit of a shock to be told that I was HIV positive. How did you process that? You've been in a long-term relationship. Yeah. Do you know what? I always say this. I must have been taught about HIV at school, but I have no knowledge of it. I didn't know that the medication existed. I didn't know all these kind of incredible advancements that you could take one pill a day. And not only could your health be completely fine, but you could also never pass it on. So for the first, probably two to three years, I was really scared because I didn't know what my life was going to look like. And you'd confided in a friend, hadn't you?

And then that friend did not keep your confidence. That must have been devastating whilst you were at uni. Yeah. So I'd only told a couple of people. And I did say to them, like, please don't pass this on. I want this to be confidential. I kind of need my own time to deal with this. And at the end of university, it did come out that, in fact, basically the whole of the

uni did know I was HIV positive. It was just a lot of pity of how was she okay, what is going on. And I think that's the reason I kind of stood up to be an activist is because someone had to set the record straight in terms of, I am fine. I do now live a perfectly happy, healthy, vibrant life. And there is a life after a diagnosis. How did you take that information then and educate yourself?

You have the diagnosis. Where did you go with it from there? I was so fortunate. So, like, the NHS have been incredible for my care. They have given me absolutely every bit of tall information, education that I needed to get to where I had to be. And then on top of that, I think you just need a bit of time to process it.

I wasn't born in the 80s. I was only born in the 90s, but a lot of that stigma had carried through. I still had all of these prejudices about HIV and what it meant. And you kind of have to rewire your own brain against all of it. And so did you think it couldn't have happened to me? I'm not in that bracket. Why am I HIV positive?

100%. And this is, I think, one of the biggest things that action plan hopefully will help us give the accessibility of testing. It can happen to anyone. you only need one encounter of sex to be HIV positive it doesn't have to be a certain type of person there's a lot of stigmas around it's a gay disease or it doesn't happen to women

all of these are faults and the important thing we need to focus on now is getting everybody tested and seeing it as routine is you don't go to the dentist because you have a cavity you go because you want to check up and we should be doing the same with HIV testing we don't just wait until we've got symptoms

you just do it as a precautionary measure So a question about to you actually Dalton is that how are you going to change that where can people go to get the information to get tested? Are you rolling it out into different settings? Yeah, absolutely. So we're going to be launching an awareness campaign and particularly targeted at those communities that perhaps have not heard those messages before, particularly women and young people. And also we're making it much, much easier to get an HIV test. So we're currently trialing, being able to order your HIV test on the NHS app,

get it sent to your home, you send it off and you get the results back to your phone. You don't have to go into a particular clinic. You don't have to do this publicly. Once we identify people that are HIV positive, then their treatment not only can extend and improve their quality of life, but it protects other people as well. And that's really important. And access to prep, for example. You can get that in sexual health clinics. But is that a place that many heterosexual women would go to?

I don't know. Where else you may be offering that? We're exploring what we can do with prep as well. I mean, there's a couple of things we've also. recently there's been launched an injectable prep rather than a tablet that you take regularly is an injection that lasts for two months. So we're exploring how we can make that more accessible. But also doing other things to support. I mean, what Ellie really highlighted was that particularly amongst women, people don't think that this is necessarily an issue for

them. So we want to increase awareness around that. But we're also doing a lot more to support women that are HIV positive. So we're working with local systems to make sure that they get gender-specific care, particularly relevant at menopause, because if you're HIV positive, you can have particular complications at menopause. And also for the first time ever, we are making available for women who are HIV positive and have a baby and you give birth, we're making it possible for them to get free formula milk and sterilising equipment to help protect themselves and their baby. Ellie, you've become this incredible advocate for people kind of learning about this.

You've got a TikTok account. You're doing all of that. How do you think you could have been reached? Because I guess you have to go back and go where I was in my life and my life and my and what I was doing, where would I have got that message that would have made me stop and think? Do you know what? It's such a good question, and I do a lot of work on this, of normalising the conversation of HIV, particularly in women. And a lot of those conversations can happen. In GP appointments, when you're going for contraceptive, for example, it's a conversation

that is already centred around sex. So it wouldn't be that weird to have, bring up the conversation of HIV and other SCIs. Things like smear appointments, it would be great if we can have, again, the conversation brought up. Again, it's already a sex-related topic. So I think it's just getting really that mindset into as many healthcare settings as we can to just bring it up because I think the more we talk about it and the more it is normalised,

the more we will encourage testing and hopefully break down some of that stigma. And for anybody listening to this who's fearful, who may think they may be you, but they're scared about going to get a test. They don't want to face what might be their new reality. What would you say to them? I guess I always say this.

Everything begins at that test. So whether it's a negative result and you know your status, you can go on to kind of be in control of your sexual health, or it's a positive result. And all you're going to do is get on medication that is going to prolong and save your life and also doesn't change anything. HIV does not have to mean that your life is over or it's this big catastrophe that I think people fear it is. I say it's now I've turned it into one of the best things that's ever happened to me.

It can still be just as normal and joyous and your life can be just the same afterwards. I guess you would concur with that. Absolutely. And one of the key things that we've put in the plan is training and support for GPs, so that they're more aware of the issues and more able to have those conversations because it is so important. That was public health minister Ashley Dalton and Ellie Harrison talking to Claire. Now, when Jacinda Ardenne became New Zealand Prime Minister in 2017 at the age of 37,

she was the youngest female head of government in the world. She also made history as only the second elected leader to give birth while in office. But it was her response to mass shootings at two mosques in Christchurch. in 2019 that drew praise for her leadership from around the world. Jacinda Ardenne entered Parliament in 2008. Her path to the premiership was swift. She became deputy leader of the Labour Party in March 2017 and five months later became leader

after Andrew Little resigned less than two months before the general election. Eventually she was made Prime Minister in a coalition government. But by the time she'd resigned in 2023, after more than five years in post, she'd face significant criticism at home, including for her response to the COVID pandemic, which some felt was too extreme. Well, since then, she's engaged in global work

focused on empathy and leadership and the prevention of online extremism. A new film, Prime Minister, out in cinemas this week, is an intimate portrait behind the scenes of her leadership. I spoke to Jacinda, and we started talking about how being leader of her party wasn't a job she thought she wanted. It was not a job I sought.

I speak often of the fact that it was not a job I thought I was necessarily well equipped for either. But that's very different from a scenario where you suddenly find yourself in that position and know that it is your responsibility to step up to the plate and lead regardless. And what about then the step to becoming prime minister? On election night, it wasn't clear. It wasn't clear who would be able to command a parliamentary majority. and so we went immediately into negotiations that lasted about two weeks

with one minor party talking with both us and our opposing national party and at the end of those two weeks making me the prime minister but about three days out from that that was when I found out I was pregnant. Astonishing. Yeah, it wasn't the word I used at the time

if I recall correctly. If you knew that you were pregnant, would you have been aiming to be prime minister? What do you mean you would have done? Look, it's a good question. I remember thinking, you know, this flash of thought coming into my head of what's the better scenario here? Is it better to find yourself as Prime Minister or is it better to find yourself pregnant in opposition? And I remember dismissing it very quickly as a selfish thought because the idea that I would give up on the opportunity after nine years of building an agenda on inequality.

and homelessness and poverty and climate change to then reduce it down to such a personal, how does this affect me? I remember feeling a little ashamed for thinking of it in that way. Your term and office was tricky for a number of reasons and one defining moment of your leadership was your response to the Christchurch mosque attacks where 51 people were killed.

You received widespread praise for your empathy and your decisiveness. But at the time, were you thinking about those decisions that you were making in that way, thinking that I need to be empathetic here? I don't recall thinking about that particular question. It was only really a few hours in that I did start to think about how, after I'd seen some of the images from Christchurch. How do I ensure that I talk about this and give the reassurance people need without letting my own. personal emotions come to the fore. No one asks you to be inhuman. In fact, they want you to bring your humanity and those values into your leadership. But they also just want clarity, decisiveness, action. And there is a place for both in leadership. Do you think that those values that you

have, you talked about them empathy, kindness, honesty? Do they hold up, do you think, in today's polarised political climate? More than ever. And I think one of the challenges, of this time and place and area that we're in at the moment is because of course what we're observing of that particular style of for better want of description strong man leadership you know we're seeing it in western liberal democracies we think because these are democracies this must be what people are seeking but I think we have to look beyond electoral outcome to some of the other markers that tell us how people are feeling about politics and we've seeing some of the highest levels of distrust in politics we're seeing a high sense of

grievance now and as a result you see when polled people feel justified in hostile acts in spreading disinformation engaging and even in some cases in acts of public vandalism because they have that sense of grievance so that to me says that it's pretty one-dimensional to say people are seeking that kind of leadership when so many other indicators tell us that they're not and so there's a job to be done for people in politics not to give in to the idea that what people want is almost this single-minded show of strength. Yes, they want strength decisiveness, but I'd also like to think they want the same values they teach their kids, curiosity, compassion, and all of those things can be held in a singular way in leadership as well. You've spoken

about experiencing imposter syndrome and anxiety from a young age. Can you explain how that would manifest itself? Yeah, I always describe myself as a warrior, you know, just someone who worried about the world worried about things. I do talk about, you know, as a kid who worried a lot or was a bit thin-skinned and pretty empathetic. You know, is there a place for you in politics? Certainly when I first came in, thought, I've chosen a really terrible career for all of these. If you have all of these character traits, actually, you feel quite suited for that environment. I remember coming out of the debating chamber one time and just feeling absolutely brutalised. A couple of people in the chamber had a real personal goal at me. And I came out thinking, oh, I have. got to harden up. Otherwise, this is just going to be a misery. And I asked the toughest guy I knew in our team. His name was Trevor. He kind of came across like a high school rugby referee. And he was horrified at the idea that I saw him that way. But that's when he said to me, don't toughen up. Don't try and build thick skin. Because if you do that, you'll lose your empathy. And I don't think I'd ever seen that perceived weakness as being attached to a string. And yet it was. And so I just

made the decision that actually I valued that strength more than the weakness it gave me and that I just needed to carry them both. I think that some worry that when women talk about things like imposter syndrome, even kindness, empathy, it reinforces those stereotypes about women being less confident or capable. And yet, when you think about it, you know, if you're saying, look, I've got a bit of a confidence gap, I think maybe I might not be as prepared as I need to be for this particular role, then that triggers set of behaviours, you know, it triggers you towards preparation. research, bringing in others, experts, advisors.

Essentially, you're expressing humility. Why in leadership would we want to enforce the idea that we should only have people who assume absolute knowledge who lack the humility to seek the advice of others? Actually, I think we should seek that in leadership. And I understand that in expressing it, there might be a view that maybe, you know, will be less confident.

Well, I'm talking about it now having led, hopefully now with a few proof points, and not asking leaders to stand up every day and to publicly doubt themselves, but if they privately are, don't rule yourself out of leadership. Some of the best leaders I know brought that kind of humility to the job,

and we need more of it. Can we talk a little about your upbringing? You were brought up Mormon, something that you went on to reject, later. Can you tell me a bit about how that might have shaped you? I was brought up in a household with a strong sense of faith and community. And yes, I left in my early 20s. And I can't tell you how much religion did or didn't shape me, but it certainly gave me a sense of service. Probably gave me a little bit of guilt. But I think again, if you channel it in the right way,

maybe it's not a bad thing. But it also gave me a respect for people. who do have a strong sense of faith and personal belief. I happen to leave mine because I couldn't reconcile the church's position on issues of equality for the LGBTQI plus community. And in the end, my sense of fairness and justice and equality meant that I left, but with no will and no doubt with a lot of it having shaped who I was as a person. and I'm a very good door-knocker as well. I want to talk a bit more about Neve, your daughter. You mentioned how you found out that you were pregnant. What was it like having that job and having a baby?

I can tell you the first 20 weeks where I was new in the job of Prime Minister because of that and because, like anyone else, I didn't want to prematurely share news that I might not hold on to. You know, I tried for a long time to have a baby unsuccessfully, and I also didn't want anyone to think that the role I'd just being elected to hold wasn't important to me, and so I hid it for 20 weeks through pretty bad morning sickness and nausea and not wanting to let on that in any way it was affecting me doing my job. I'm not going to lie, those first 20 weeks were hard, but they were also doable.

I wanted to be able to prove that you could both be a competent leader and a present mother simultaneously. The media and others did question whether you could do it. Yes, they did, but that wasn't my overwhelming experience of sharing with New Zealand that I would become a mother. We made the announcement on Instagram and the overwhelming response was just one of joy. It's Clark, your now husband, who captured a lot of the moments that we see in the documentary. Some of them are very personal, for instance, struggling with breastfeeding. Why was it important for you to share those? And did you know at the time that you were going to make those into a film like that?

Yeah, no. So my husband is a broadcaster. So he had his own fishing show. He was both in front of the camera and behind it. And when I suddenly became prime minister and, when I suddenly became leader, he had the thought someone should capture this and if nothing else for us, for our family. I think you can see from the footage that there's not really a consciousness about what might happen to it and that helps in a way because I'm obviously

not that worried about the fact I'm in a bathroom or I'm in bed or indeed I'm breastfeeding, not realizing it would be one of the last times. We saw what was happening for you as the COVID pandemic struck, and New Zealand was known for having some of the strictest lockdowns, closing borders. New Zealand's Royal Commission's inquiry's first report found the early response prevented deaths, but that some measures including prolonged mandates cause social and economic impacts and eroded trust. Do you, looking back, think the government ultimately struck the right balance across the pandemic? I don't disagree with any of their findings, but if you offered me the choice of the critique being you did too little, or you did too much, as much as I'd rather that you get it perfectly right.

If the only choice was between those two, I'd rather be accused of doing too much because that was always an aid of saving people's lives. And I do think that that was the right value to hold to through that really difficult period. When you resigned, you said that you did it because you didn't have enough energy in the tank. It came at a time when popularity in the polls was lowest. Your party had been waning in popularity. How much did those factors play a part in your decision not to fight that election? I think I had been lower than I was when I left, not to, I'm not sure that that's an argument I should be making.

But I think actually my recall is that when I left, my numbers were sitting about the same places when I was first elected. But granted off a pretty unprecedented 2020 election where, you know, there we got a 50% of the vote. That was not a normal election. It was in the middle of COVID. I was very purposeful and wanting to leave at a time when actually there was nothing particularly at play. We were in a fairly regular part of the political cycle, relatively small margin with the other party, gearing up for a new election. That was the critical factor, though. Going in, I felt like I needed to say, I'm here for another three.

And I could have kept going, could have completed that term. but did I have another three years in me when the last five had felt like ten? And all those things I valued in leadership, curiosity and not being defensive, I just felt them waning. That was a big part of the decision. One other part, which I often find hard to articulate is, you know, we were a progressive government. We did a lot.

You know, we didn't just manage crisis. We increased paid parental leave. We did a huge amount on child poverty. We increased benefit rates. we'd ban conversion therapy, we decriminalised abortion, we engaged in drug reform, we banned smoking, we did a large number of things, including on Indigenous rights, and I didn't want them to roll back. You mentioned child poverty there, you didn't quite achieve what you wanted to on that. All of the things that I cared about were never things you'd get done in three years or five years.

They were all things that were going to take time, which was why, for me, it was how do I lay the groundwork in such a way that if I'm gone and through, or if I'm gone in six, it keeps going. There are critics who say that your leadership was style over substance. What would you say to them? Well, I could bore you with a list of achievements, but, you know, at the same time, it feels very un-kiwi to me, just sit here and be like, we've built more houses than needing government since the 1970s,

putting groundbreaking legislation on climate change and increase the minimum wage. You know, I could go on at length about that. You'll always have your critics. It's been reported in some newspapers that you could be the next secretary, General of the United Nations. Oh, it was a smooth segue there, wasn't it?

What do you think about that? I've seen that speculative reporting, and I have no idea what that's based on, but I would say no. That is not on the cards. That was Jacinda Ardern there. And if you want to listen to the much longer version of that interview, go to Thursday's program on BBC Sounds. Now, a couple of weeks ago on Woman's Hour, we heard about the life of poet and activist Andrea Gibson. Andrea's wife, Megan Fally, talked about how at the end of Andrea's life,

they were surrounded by many of Andrea's ex-girlfriends. Now, it chimes with the research carried out a number of years ago that found LGBT plus people are more likely to have a current friendship with an ex than heterosexual people. To discuss relationships with exes, Nula was joined by comedian and author of the break-up monologues Rosie Wilby and the journalist and author Olivia Petter, whose book Millennial Love explores the contemporary dating scene.

So does Olivia keep in touch with her exes? I'm definitely on good terms with some of them and friendly with some of them, but I don't think I would say I have close friendships with anyone I've dated necessarily. And neither do any of my heterosexual friends, really. It's quite rare, I think, for the straight people I know to be close friends with people they've dated, particularly if it's been a longer-term relationship. And I think there are all sorts of reasons for that. And I also think it's a real shame, by the way.

I think there is so much that we can learn from being friends with people we've been in love with if we can find positive elements to that relationship and turn it into a loving friendship. But I think it's really difficult. I think there are all sorts of very rigid codes and models that heterosexual people tend to stick to when it comes to relationships. And I think part of that is this idea that when a relationship is over, sort of put it in a box, lock it up, throw away the key and move on. And I think it can be quite challenging to subvert that narrative in a lot of ways to our detriment. Rosie, your experience? Completely and utterly different to that.

I've often joked that at a lesbian wedding, the bride should not be given away by her father, but in fact a procession of all of her exes. Oh, what a lovely idea. Exactly. Because that is your family and it's long being understood in marginalised communities that you have to put in the work to stay friends because otherwise you risk eroding a whole landscape of interconnected mutual friendships. You risk being isolated from your community, from your tribe. Friendship after a relationship is a survival instinct that is hardwired into any gay or queer person's brain. It is absolutely essential. And the psychological work that it takes to get to that point to distill your romantic and sexual feelings into friendship allows you to see one another's pain. And in witnessing that, you allow space for one another's joy.

One of the people I feel my most authentic and safe with is my ex-Donner, who I separated from 25 years ago. And we don't see each other all the time, but whenever I do, it's as if no time. has passed. But, you know, I'm drawn to the word when you talk about distilling those feelings because I'm sure jealousy is a thing, right, no matter what your sexual orientation is. And I can kind of understand what I'm hearing from you, Rosie, that it's necessary in a way for your ecosystem that you're going through. But is it a conscious effort or is it what you see around you? It's hard work, you know, that you're going to bump into that person on the bus. And you do. I mean, all lesbians in London used to get on the 73 bars for some reason.

Hang on, this is already an episode of women's hour, the 73 bus. Everyone was going to state Newington. That's where all the lesbians lived in the 1990s. So you did always bump into each other. You went to the same bars. You know, society was segregated. You had to for your own safety. So there's a very serious reason behind on sort of making jokes about it because that's sort of what you do when you've experienced trauma and bullying and abuse and violence. all of your life. You have to make jokes and you have to form those friendships and those bonds because those people are your family. Donna feels like a sister to me because it's kind

of the closest thing I've got really. I don't have a large biological family. So I just think it's so important you have to just get over the jealousy. And I think as Olivia says, heterosexual, heteronormative people have had to live by such a strict set of codes. And there's a completely different code of conduct that the queer community is devised in the margins. However, I'm scared that we may be losing that as we sort of start to get married and have more heteronormative models that we follow because that seemed very aspirational for queer people, didn't it, to sort of be equal and be the same as straight people. But I see perhaps some people now taking on these more heteronimative codes of blocking one another,

which just feels so alien to me. and I was blocked by somebody and I did not respond well. I probably responded very, very poorly because it was just not sort of in this code that I had been passed down by the lesbians that I had always adored so much. And I treated it as this sacred way that humans beings must behave. But obviously, I'm not the spokesperson for all lesbians. I know that some women will want to behave in a different way. I mean, obviously I'm being the spokesperson for lesbians right now. But we're all different, even though I think as a general rule, this is what I'm.

seen going on. Interesting. Do you think it's generational? Well, no, I don't necessarily think that. I hope not because I see so much hope and invention and creativity and wonder in the young queer women who are experimenting in all kinds of wonderful and exciting ways, sort of maybe rejecting monogamy or thinking about relationships in new ways, thinking about family and friendships in new ways. There's just perhaps a slightly different code and a slightly different set of terms and language that they might use. few comments that are coming here from straight people. Losing an ex often means losing a best friend. I've never got past losing the friendship I had with my first boyfriend. We did so much

growing up together, so much putting the world to rights. It feels so sad that we couldn't salvage a friendship. And I often think about how his life may have turned out. But here's another. I am still friends with my ex-boyfriend. I think mainly because we were friends before we started dating and that's the more important aspect that survived. Thankfully, my current boyfriend gets on well with him Two. Another, my husband is still in touch with his college girlfriend. She's a wonderful person and godmother to our son and cool aunt to our daughters. But perhaps those last two not the normal of you. Yeah, I think the thing that we need to remember here is that as women, we are conditioned to see our male partner's exes as threats. And we are conditioned to pit ourselves against them in so many ways. And I think that is something that's really important to point out here because in order to have a healthy relationship with an ex, it means, you know, your current partners also need to be accepting of that. It requires quite a lot of unlearning of internalised misogyny that has told us that we have to see a partner's exes as in competition with us. And, you know, we project all of our deepest insecurities onto them. The

amount of times myself and my single friends have spent hours trawling through social media of partners. We need to come to social media because exes is a whole different world now when you can actually see what they're up to instead of waiting to hear something from the person down in the pub who saw them the week previously. Yeah, it makes it really difficult. And, you know, there are so many different nuances within it because, yes, you could block a partner, but you could also still follow them and then mute them. But, you know, it's very important that you're visibly seen to be following them still. If there's all these different things, you could hide your stories, you could restrict them. It's completely insane that we have this kind of plethora

of options to deal with with this. But I think it all makes it very difficult. And I think another idea that this kind of leans into is this archaic notion that men and women can not be friends if they are both straight. Going back to when Harry met Sally, I mean. Exactly. Or when Sally met Sally. Good point, was it too shay. Here's another one coming in. You're not the spokesperson

for all lesbians you say. Clara in London, my ex and I, women, are the best of friends now. We had a relationship for a couple of years and it took time to move to friendship. Help somewhat by her moving abroad for a while. We support each other, laugh a lot, cook for each other and have lived in the same area road for some time. She also helped me

by my first home in my mid-50s, which was incredible. We're family now. We feel very lucky. But what Clara is saying there, I think, could relate to hetero or homosexual relationships. I think sometimes you need a little break. Little break when the relation stops. And then you can be friends again. Might be speaking from personal experience. What about that? You're both nodding your heads. I think absolutely. I think if you're going to be friends with an ex, you know, regardless of your sexuality, it's important to have a little reset and to kind of take some space away to reflect on the relationship, how it ended. And obviously, look, there are some exes that you shouldn't and can't be friends with.

But in the cases where the relationship ended amicably and there is very much a space for you to turn that into something positive and into a friendship moving forward, then yes, you absolutely should do that. But I do think it requires a little bit of breathing room initially. Because Rosie, what we could be thinking is like that particularly the lesbian community, are they all friends, it breaks up, no problem. go down and hang out together. But there must be a little bit of space. Yes. I mean, Donna and I went through some terrible times because it was also at the same time that my mother had

just passed away. And also we had a house fire where we lost all our stuff. Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. Horribly dramatic time just in our late 20s when we were not quite grown up enough yet to really deal with it all. And I think that's why we needed to stay friends and process all of that stuff together. However, yeah, we did get to a point where we had to have about a month off of contact, but I don't think we even managed that because we just had this close bond and this close connection and we kind of needed each other. Obviously, the flip side of all this is that you can have muddy boundaries. I certainly know women in the past. That's another book there, Rosie. Muddy boundaries. Well, I know women who slept with each other just to fast forward

to the bit where you do get to be friends because it's so difficult to initiate friendships that sometimes a fling was a better way to do it. So there was a different approach to boundaries than the sort of more heteronormative community have now. And I think communicating about that, particularly now more heteronormative women or coming to slightly more fluid identities later in life, we need to communicate better about it all and not have these difficult sort of culture clashes, if you like, because I know I come from a completely different ethos to you.

And I'm sure you would not be interested in. an old lesser like me, but if we had a fling, we probably wouldn't know what on earth each other was talking about, you know what I mean? That was Olivia Petter and Rosie will be there talking to Noola. Still to come on the programme, why so many teachers are leaving the profession after having children. And remember that you can enjoy Women's Hour any hour of the day

if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week. Just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Columnist Sarah Vine started losing her hair as a teenager and was eventually diagnosed with female pattern boldness, a hormonal condition. But now she's decided, after 15 years of wearing wigs, to reveal her own hair on the front cover of a national newspaper. What impact did losing her hair at the age of 16 have on her? It sort of excluded me from normal teenage activities.

I felt very marginalised, really, by it all, because all the other girls would be thinking about their hair and makeup and how they looked. And I just couldn't really engage because I just felt like I didn't belong in that space at all, if you know what I mean. So I became quite isolated, I think, and quite sort of geeky. Did you seek help at that point or talk to your parents about what was like that? I talked to my mum about it and we went to see someone, but it would have been sort of 1984, something like that. So, you know, there wasn't an awful lot of understanding, really, of it. And I just had my hair cut short, really, because it looked less obvious if it was short

because you could sort of muss it up a bit. Do you know what I mean? I've seen countless doctors and, you know, people over the years about it. And it's only, I'd say it's only in the last sort of 10 years, really, that they've been at all receptive to it, as it were. I mean, I think one of the problems with it is that it's not a life-threatening illness. You're not going to die of hair loss. It's not a priority and I sort of understand that. But I think the mental side of it is the sort of emotional side of it is quite difficult for people to handle

because it really undermines your confidence as a woman because a femininity is so bound up with hair, isn't it? I mean, you think of Goldilocks, you think of Rapunzel. You know, hair is the great, you know, the beautiful hair is considered to be a great asset for a female. and if you don't have it, you feel very exposed and unfeminine. So you decided to wear a wig? Tell me about that process and how it felt. I have basically female pattern baldness, which used to be called male pattern baldness,

but they now do call it female pattern baldness and women. And it's hormonal and it's to do with androgen. And it comes and goes, or it did in my case. But after I went through the menopause, it just, I think the menopause. is tough for women with hair anyway. You know, a lot of my friends who have lovely hair have complained that their hair has got thinner or fallen out during the menopause.

And I think the combination of that, plus I have this very underactive thyroid, plus this genetic problem. So my hair just basically checked out. And I got to the stage where I couldn't sort of disguise it anymore. So I thought, okay, I'm going to have to, you know, go for some sort of head covering. I did a lot of research.

They do this permanent hair thing, which is sort of stitched into your own hair or what remains of your own hair. I had a real problem with the idea of taking my hair off at night. I know that probably sounds a bit mad, but I just did. And I just wanted something that allowed me almost to forget the problem.

So you have revealed your real hair. What did that feel like when that happened? And were people surprised? My friends know the extent of my hair loss, but I don't think anyone's ever really seen it like that. I've always kept it covered up. It felt both sort of mad but also quite liberating. You've done this in a big way, though, haven't you? Because you are on the front page of a national newspaper.

Yes, I know, I know. But the reason I wanted to do it like that, and I have been thinking about this for quite a long time, I'd be honest, it's just because I quite want to try and normalize this experience a bit for people. It's the last great taboo, isn't it? Hair loss. And I think for men, it's very also equally traumatic. I think men suffer just as much. But it's sort of more accepted, really, that a man might lose their hair.

And it doesn't impact their masculinity. In fact, you know, sometimes it sort of amplifies it, if you know what I mean. if you think of people like Jason Staten, you know, all those sort of macho, bald men. But I think that for women, it's never an empowering thing. It is always defeminizing and it undermines your sense of self. And over the years, it has made me think less of myself. And it sometimes has led me to make quite bad choices, particularly with sort of boyfriends and stuff when I was younger. I was always so pathetically grateful if a boy liked me even though.

I had very thin hair. And I know that a lot of women have this problem because the place where I go for my hair system is full of women like me who have very, very, very thin hair. But also statistically, we know that over 30% of women have proper hair loss. And it is the last taboo. And I just hoped that if I did it,

that people might look at me and say, well, okay, there's someone trying to make this a normal thing. Let's talk about it. Let's find solutions. Let's be open about it. Let's not be ashamed of it. So let's just talk about it and try and get through it together. There are other high-profile women.

Are you aware of Jasmine Mitchell, the 23-year-old, who won the Great British Bake Off this year? Yes, I am, yes. There are other people. And visibility is a big part of acceptance. Yes, it's getting there. It's definitely getting there. We had Gail Porter many years ago. And, of course, we've got Alphaba, Cynthia Eviro.

So there are women without hair are starting to become more mainstream. But I think I'm a lot of old. older than all of those people. Do you know what I mean? I'm nearly 60. So I think for older women, it is still quite a taboo because it's just a generational thing, if you know what I mean. I think the younger generation are much better about being open about these sorts of things. I just thought, you know, I'd like to try and join that chorus. Sarah Vine, they're talking to me on Friday's program. Next, why does so many teachers leave the profession after having children and what can be done

about it? These are questions that have been asked in teaching for some time, particularly as the sector has hit a recruitment crisis. Earlier this year, teacher vacancies hit a record high in England. The maternity teacher project, a UK charity for parent teachers, has recently gathered data that shows just how many teachers leave the profession in the four years after becoming parents. Well, I spoke to the BBC's education editor, Branwyn-Jeffries, and to Emma Shepard, founder of that project,

who submitted a freedom of information request to get the figures, So what did she find? That's one of the most important points is that we do not have re-access to this data unless we make the request for it's not something that the government publish, it's not something that's prioritised when we look at our workforce statistics. And so what we found was that over a four-year period after returning from maternity leave, an average of 3,835 teachers leave the profession. And that particularly peaks in the first 12 months after they return to work, where on our

Over that three-year period, 1,774 teachers left the profession within 12 months of returning from maternity leave. And then going forward after 12 months, how did the figures change after a number of years? We see a significant drop-off in terms of the rates of leaving after that first 12-month period, but there is a steady sort of leaving the profession. But actually what that data shows is that if we can retain them beyond that 12 months, the risk of them leaving reduces. And actually, if we can retain them over that four-year period,

these mother teachers become one of our most reliable retention demographics, and they remain in the profession long term. Why was it important to gather this data? We are a very small charity. We've been running since 2016. And in 2016, we had absolutely no data available about why women aged 30 to 39 with a large demographic leaving the profession every year.

And so we've been piecing the data together to understand exactly how much the motherhood penalty is damaging our workforce and weakening the quality of teaching and learning that we're able to provide for our children. And now that we have this data, it really shows that we need to stand up, pay attention to the needs of these mothers and actually do something about it for the good of our workforce and for the good of the quality of education we're providing for our students. And how do these numbers compare to other professions? Is it greater in teaching? Yes. So actually, we've got some comparative.

figures, but this is actually an area that is under-researched in many, many industries. Unfortunately, working motherhood tends to be a bit of an invisible demographic. People turn away from it. But we know that in the armed forces, for example, after one year of returning from maternity leave, they retain 13.5% of their maternity returners in comparison to the 17 to 20% of teachers. They have a much higher retention rate. And in the NHS, over a two-year period, and they only see 10% of their maternity. return to returners leave instead of 27% over a two-year period in teaching. So in those two

comparable public sector industries that we can find data for, yes, the figures are much higher in teaching. I just want to bring Bramwin in here. So Bramwin, as education editor, you've been looking at these kinds of issues for a while, haven't you? Were these figures a surprise to you? In some ways not, sadly. And of course, it's worth restating that this is overwhelmingly a female profession. So it is really, really important to work out how to keep women because it's hard to get people into teaching. Effectively, the government is trying to fill a bucket

that's got a hole where people are leaking out in their 30s and that's mainly women. They are doing well on that. Actually, some figures we've had in the last half hour show an increase, a marked increase in the number of people this year starting teacher training, going into the profession with a lot of commitment and vocation and dedication, but then leaving this big group of women leaving in their 30s. And we know that flexibility of work and maternity pay are two of the key factors. So Emma, let's talk about that

flexibility. What does that flexibility mean? Is it as simple as, you know, part-time working, job sharing? I mean, there are so many ways to do flexible working and some of those absolutely work within the education profession and some of those unfortunately don't because you have to be physically present in the classroom teaching or doing your duties or delivering assemblies. But in general, the education profession is lagging behind that creativity and thinking around flexible working and also the willingness. There's a real traditional concept of having to be in the building at all times in order to do your job or not wanting to open the floodgates. That's a phrase that's used a lot to more creative ways.

of working. But realistically, teachers and leaders are dealing with so many things on a daily basis that actually that's sort of long-term strategic workforce thinking that requires headspace and courage and change is actually sometimes beyond the capacity that leaders have. Has there been any improvements since these figures were recorded? And what's the government kind of saying about this issue? Well, the government has recognised that women aged 30 to 39 are the single biggest group leaving the profession. It has issued guidance to schools about how to encourage flexible working and we're beginning to see some quite innovative experiments like a nine-day week

across one big academy trust. Other schools or academies I've spoken to are experimenting with things like early starts and early finishes or later starts to give women that wiggle room. But I just want to come back to that point about maternity pay. It's four weeks on full pay and two weeks on 90%. You could go and work for a supermarket as a manager and get 26 weeks on full pay. So I wonder if one of the patterns that we're seeing in these figures is women having one child and then thinking, how on earth am I going to afford to have another?

What do you think about that, Emma? Do you think that's a contributing factor? Yeah, I mean, just to add to that, we do then have a 12-week period of half. pay after that six-week period. So it is enhanced if we meet certain qualifying criteria. And I agree, it's shocking in comparison to some other industries, particularly graduate professions. It's particularly galling that the Department for Education get 26 weeks fully paid leave for both parents, so any parents. And a trick that we're really missing is that we talk a great deal about maternity pay and flexible working for women and for mothers, but we don't include

fathers and non-birthing partners in this conversation. And actually, if we really, if we want greater equality for women in the workplace in all industries, we absolutely have to incentivise greater equality for men at home so that our male teachers and the partners of teachers, female teachers, are at home in the first 12 months of their children's lives, taking on this responsibility as theirs instead of the very traditional caretaker breadwinner roles that our national policies and our sector policies push us into. So men in the teaching profession. I only get two weeks paternity leave at statutory pay if, again, they meet certain qualifying criterias. And I know that the maternity pay is not as good as other industries, but that, to

me, is a huge, huge problem. We've had so many comments on this already. I want to read this email here that we've had, someone who didn't want to give their name. They say, in teaching, it's impossible to manage all your responsibilities within working hours. There's an expectation that we will do much of our planning and admin at home. That was stated clearly and with frustration towards me by a head. When I raised struggles with workload and children, there was the feeling that I should feel grateful for my part-time role. As a person says, I absolutely don't blame school leaders. Everyone is so stressed. Money's been draining out of school for years. As the money's gone, so if the staff around the teachers are left to choose between letting children's needs go

unmet or working more than we're able, most of us choose to work more. There many of us come to a point when we cannot keep going. I was burnt out and have stepped out. It's really, really upsetting to hear that, isn't it? Clearly, this is somebody who's very passionate. Is that what you're hearing as well, this extra work that seems like it's expected from teachers? Absolutely. And what you just described there is just so typical of so many of the qualitative research and diffuse that we've completed since 2018 as part of our data gathering. And as Bramwen called it, it's this leaky bucket concept and the consequences of that. So everything that was described there is a capacity issue. The more money that we're spending on

recruitment and retention, the more we're not saving in order to increase capacity. The limited capacity that we have increases workload for those that are left. And actually, if we can retain some of these very experienced teachers who become mothers, then we're increasing capacity. And that alleviates workload for everybody. But actually what we see is that these mother teachers act like the canaries in the coal mine. So our 24 missing mothers report that we completed in collaboration with the new Britain project that Brown one actually covered last year,

demonstrated that just like every other demographic, workload is the principal reason that these women age 30 to 39 are leaving because they're then going home to do a double shift when they're taking on the majority of the caring responsibility at home. But that's something that is a problematic of the whole sector. It's just that these mothers with double caring responsibilities are not sustain it. That was Emma Shepard from the maternity teacher, paternity teacher project and the BBC's Education Editor Brannwin Jeffries. and a Department for Education Spokesperson says

we recognise women at age 30 to 39 are the largest group of levers from the teacher workforce. That's why we're taking action to promote and expand flexible working opportunities in schools and provide support for those returning following parental leave. Now, do you like everything to be perfect for Christmas dinner party hosting, the spotless house, the elaborate menu,

the Instagram-worthy table setting? But what if we told you that the secret to a great dinner party isn't perfection, it's scruffy hosting, a trend that's apparently transforming the way we gather together and make stress-free dinner parties more attainable. Perhaps a one-pot dinner mismatch cutlery or children running around screaming.

What did Helen Thorne, comedian, podcaster and one-half of scummy mummies, think of the idea of scruffy hosting? I've been doing it forever. I would say, always choose joy over perfect. choose having a good time, choose good company. If your friends judge you for having a messy house, get rid of the friends. Don't get rid of the mess. You know, embrace it. And I think especially at this time of year, moms are flat out. There's a lot on. We're limping towards

the end of the year. You know, just have food that's easy, friends that are warm and enjoy it. You know, use paper plates if you need to. I think life is just so chaotic at the moment. And I think just enjoy the connection. And sometimes people don't. I don't have dinner parties because I think, oh gosh, I don't have time to clean up and do the perfect thing. But now more than ever, it's really important to have those connections with friends and do a bit of, as I like to call, hiding. Don't tidy. Just hide things. Put it in a box.

Put it in the boot of the car. Lots of messages coming in. Here's one. I'm only using my energy and inviting people over who don't judge. We must stop holding ourselves to impossible standards of perfection. Do you have a memorable scruffy dinner that you have been to? Absolutely. I have a group of friends. We just take it in turns and we all just bring a bit of food and it's just about having a good laugh and we're all sort of either single parents or parents with teenagers. We're all feeling a bit menopausal as well. So just having that time to connect over food I think is really important. And we're not saying have a dirty house. It's just, you know, obviously give things a little bit of a wipe. You know, we don't live in a pig pen. But I think it's those where my friends come to my house and go, Helen, you make me feel so much better about my missing house. I'm like,

you are welcome, Gemma. This is a public service. So maybe you don't want to go to this house. I wouldn't do scruffy hosting, even if it was just me here. I live in a spotless house and make the beds with hospital corners regardless of who can see it. It's how I roll. Once the guests are here, I try and ignore it all getting in a mess and I don't start cleaning up until they've gone, even though that makes me itch. Thankfully, I don't care in the slightest if I'm a guest in somebody else's Scruffy home. It's all about people having a good time. Absolutely. And you, You've got to just do you. If you like opulent, you know, table decorations and being neat, that's great.

But I get a bit eye-twitchy and I start shouting about children 15 minutes before the guests arrive. And I don't need the stress. I just want the joy. And I think one of the things being about a single parent is like I've reframed Christmas. And one year, we just said, let's just have our three favourite foods. So on the Christmas table was roast chicken, skittles and chopped up cucumber. And we all had a lovely time. That was Helen Thorne talking to Nula there.

Now on Monday's programme we'll be taking a look at free birthing, what it is and what are the risks. So do join Nula at 10am on Monday for that. But for me for now, thank you very much for listening.