Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour - Jenni Murray, the Story of Cherry Groce, Butterfly Conservation

Episode Date: October 3, 2020

In her final Woman’s Hour after 33 years at the helm, Jenni discusses the work that still needs to be done when it comes to feminism and equality. She's joined by Helena Kennedy QC, Jude Kelly the founder and director of The WOW Foundation, "Mother of the House" Harriet Harman MP, and poet and novelist, Jackie Kay. We hear from Lee Lawrence, whose mother Cherry Groce was shot by police in a botched dawn raid. Lee describes his fight to get justice for his mother and his ongoing commitment to challenging racism within the police force.We hear from the film director Malou Reymann about her new film ‘A Perfectly Normal Family’. It centres around an eleven year old girl whose life is turned upside down when her father tells her he wants to become a woman. The fictional story is based on Malou's own experience. Live, learn and thrive: that’s what Andrea McLean wants us to do with the help of her new book “This Girl is on Fire”. The 2020 Woman’s Hour Power List is looking for women who are trying to improve the health of our planet. We hear from Zoë Randle, the Senior Surveys Officer for Butterfly Conservation. She tells us about the thousands of volunteers who are turning their love of nature into hard data which will directly influence UK conservation policy. And Jenni leaves us with a snap-shot of her favourite-ever guests. Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Siobhann Tighe

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good afternoon, and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Of course, in this edition of the programme, we will mark Jenny Murray's final edition of the programme, which was on Thursday. It was epic, so much to enjoy there. And we'll play you some of the highlights this afternoon. We'll also hear from Andrea McLean.

She's a loose woman and she'll discuss breaking her own boundaries. How far do you actually go when you set your own limits? How far do we go when someone else sets those limits? And it's someone that is so far removed from your normal sort of life, an SAS Marine. At the time when I did it, I was almost 50. I'm nearly 51 now. I wanted to sort of prove to myself that I'm halfway through, not halfway done. Good way of thinking about it. That's Andrea McLean, loose woman and a graduate of Celebrity SAS. Also in this week's Weekend Woman's Hour, we'll look at our

power list, which this year is looking for women who've made a significant difference to the health of our planet. And marking marking that we talked on the program to Zoe Randall. She's from the Butterfly Conservation Trust and she discussed how changes to the climate are affecting our butterfly population. The really wet February's had an impact, the warm spring's had an impact and overall our butterflies are declining, three-quarters of species are declining but it's depressing. But people need to feel empowered and we can make a difference. And we have turned the tide on so many species.

That's good to hear. Zoe Randall, more from her a little later in this programme. On the 28th of September 1985, Lee Lawrence's mother, Cherry Gross, was shot by the police during a raid on their home in Brixton in London. The bullet shattered Cherry's spine and she never walked again. It was initially reported that she died and riots started. 11-year-old Lee was in the house. He became his mother's carer later.

And after a doctor questioned the cause of his mother's death nine years ago, Lee campaigned fiercely for an inquest. He took me back to the morning of the police raid. It was 7am, September 28th, 1985, and I was asleep in my mum's room, together with my sister Sharon, who was 13. My dad was in the room also, and I heard a noise which woke me up.

And I was still half asleep. I saw my mum walking towards the door. Then I laid back down, reassured that mum was taking care of it. Then I heard another loud noise, a big bang this time. I jumped up and just saw my mum lying on the floor and a man towering over her with a gun in his hand, shouting at her. At this point, I got hysterical and I started screaming and I started shouting. And I heard my mum's voice in a very faint voice saying, I can't breathe.

I can't feel my legs and I think I'm going to die. At this point, the person who was holding the gun pointed at me and said, someone better shut this effing kid up. In that moment, my dad turned around and looked at me and asked me to calm down and I saw the fear in his face. And I realised that this was serious because my dad was in the army and he was a security guard at the time. And I thought, if my dad's scared, then this must be serious.

And it was only at this point that I actually realised that this was a police officer who was holding this gun in his hand. So we got ushered out into the living room where I was joined with the rest of my siblings. My sister Juliet, who was 21 at the time, six months pregnant. My sister Lisa, who was eight at the time. And my pregnant, my sister Lisa who was eight at the time and my mum was babysitting two children who were seven and two. So the house was full of children? The house was full of children. So your life from that point on just simply unravelled, what else

could it do? Tell us a bit about your mum, what was she like because there are some happy times that you talk about in the book, she was a great music lover. Yes, my mum loved music. She loved dancing. She loved to socialise. She was well known in our community. She was very loving, very giving. The kind of person who, you know, someone that fallen in hard times, my mum would put them up sometimes for a week, a month, you know, sometimes even a year, some people would be staying with us. So she was really giving of herself and we didn't have much, but whatever she had, she would share. And the man who shot your mother, Douglas Lovelock, what happened to him?

So two years after my mum was shot, there was a criminal trial and he was acquitted. And I remember seeing that on TV, going up to my mum and saying, Mum, you know, how do you feel about this? Because I was really angry. And she looked at me and she said, Lee, the police are a force and we can't beat the force. Your mum was, I think, still in Stoke Mandeville at the time? So she'd just come out of Stoke Mandeville at the time and we'd just moved to a bungalow. And you became her carer, didn't you?

You were still very young. What was that like? Because your mum, you describe her as being an effervescent person, somebody who was very much part of the community. She couldn't do all that anymore. I mean, it's not easy to be a carer. It's actually not easy to be cared for, I suspect, particularly if you're someone like your mum.

That's right. And before that incident, I saw my mum as a lioness that was always looking after her cubs. So when that incident happened and we went to the hospital and the doctor said she would never, ever walk again, I just remember making a commitment to myself,

saying I could no longer expect my mum to care for me and now I've got to care for her so the roles had reversed and I would say that robbed my childhood it totally disrupted my schooling what did you do about money well money was really it was really tough um and I felt didn't feel comfortable going to my mum to ask her for money. So sometimes I'd be doing things that I shouldn't be doing. You know, one, I explained in the book that I actually stole a pair of trainers because I needed these new pair of trainers. Because the ones I had were, you know, the soul was coming off, basically.

Actually, you happened to, the security guard was a kind bloke, wasn't he? Yes. And he, you know, showed me some sympathy and let me go at the time. Yeah. In the end, you got compensation, we should say. But it took quite some time. I think it was eight years before you got a penny. That's correct.

It took eight years. And the compensation was that they looked at my mum's life expectancy and said she would probably live for 10 years and they quantified what it would take to care for her for that time. And she lived for 26 years. For 16 years, my mum basically had to rely on us financially. And actually, your book starts essentially at the point of her passing away

because you find something out at that point, don't you? When I went to get my mum's death certificate to start the funeral arrangements, at that point they said to me, we can't give you the death certificate because it looks like, because of what the doctor had written in his notes, that there may be an inquest into her death. At that point, I didn't even know what

the inquest was. But once I started to research and find out exactly what it was, I did everything that I could to make that happen. And what did the inquest finally decide about how your mother had died? That it was serious multiple failures by the Metropolitan Police at every level and that that raid on my home that day should have never have happened. Yeah well the exact I think the coroner said Mrs Gross was shot by police during a planned surprised forced entry raid on her home and her subsequent death was contributed to by failures in the planning and implementation of that raid and you got a public apology I mean what what does that mean? Well at the time I always explain it as a bittersweet moment that it was an apology that we

deserved to hear but the person who most deserved to hear it was no longer here, my mum was not here, we had to accept that apology on her behalf and we decided that the apology means nothing if there was going to be no accountability and that took another two years of battling with the Met

before they actually accepted accountability for their actions In total transparency I should say that you and I talked just before with the Met before they actually accepted accountability for their actions. In total transparency, I should say that you and I talked just before the interview and I asked you, just before the programme started, I asked you whether you'd tried to get your story published before because now seems like the right time for this memoir, but I am troubled by the idea that in fact nobody wanted to publish it a couple of years ago. What does that tell you

um what it tells me is i think when i was looking at the book before that was before we came to any conclusion so it was we wasn't at the end of the story okay yeah so that i think that was one thing why it was difficult to to get a publishing deal at that particular time um it's it's funny that we had planned to bring the book out around this time anyway and it just so happens that within this year we've seen the likes of george floyd happen which makes the book more relevant than ever but um at the beginning of the year, I was quite nervous about bringing out the book because of, you know, the pandemic that we were going through. So it's sad that in 2020, we're still dealing with similar events. Well, I was going to say, your book is sadly relevant. And I wonder too, whether when you put it together, you really began to think harder about what you'd been

through, you and your family. I guess you'd just been trying to live your life as best you could. Yes. And to be honest, we followed suit in terms of how my mum dealt with it. You know, she felt like, you know, she just had to be strong. She wanted to get back to being a mother and try to be as independent as she could. And she suppressed her feelings. and we did so too and it was only when my mum passed in 2011 that all the emotions the hurt the pain the trauma the the sense of injustice came flowing back and I just prayed that this glimmer of hope in this inquest would would be something that I could focus that energy into.

And that's what I did. And you do work with the police, don't you? I know that you have sometimes, understandably, a somewhat difficult relationship with them, but you have tried to work with the Met to change things. So I'd like to rephrase and say I engage and consult and consult. But yes, I think it's very important because I want what happened to my mum to stand for something. I would like lessons to be learned.

I would like to... Well, I mean, have they? Well, I haven't seen it yet. And that's why I'm doing the work that I'm doing now because I'd like to see that. I'd like to see measurable, tangible changes. I would like to be living in a world where something like this could never happen again. Lee Lawrence, and he's written a book about his experiences,

which really does bring his mother to life. It's called The Louder I Will Sing, and it's out now. Now, on Thursday, the nation quivered a little because it was Jenny's final edition of Woman's Hour after 33 years. I'd like to say I wasn't born when she started, but that wouldn't actually be true, so scrub that. She talked on the programme on Thursday to four women

who she described as sharing three steps forward and two steps back when it came to the moves towards equality between the sexes. They were the Labour MP for Camberwell and Peckham and Mother of the House, Harriet Harman, Labour MP, of course, Baroness Helena Kennedy QC, the poet and novelist Jackie Kay, who is Scotland's national poet, and Jude Kelly, the founder and director

of the Women of the World Foundation. Jenny asked Harriet just what's changed. Attitudes have now changed considerably. I mean, you wouldn't get anybody now publicly saying, well, he gave her a slap because she was out of order and he needed to keep her in order. That sort of thing has gone those attitudes have changed however those sort of deep cultural things between men and women still some of them persist and that the latest one was the rough sex defense which paradoxically came out of the idea of women's sexual empowerment

you know the 50 shades of gray women all like to be tied to the bed and beaten and therefore when a man killed a woman or seriously injured her, he would turn up in court and say, yes, those injuries were inflicted by my hand, but actually she was asking for it. She wanted me to insert those objects into her. She wanted me to strangle her. And so, in a way, these things were still happening. But therefore, the law had to be changed, although attitudes had changed. And again, we've got to keep a very close eye on that as in the courts to make sure that it's actually being put into effect. Because as you've said, it's sometimes three steps forward, two steps back. You know, we're not there just because

people are agreeing with us. We're only there and have made it when change actually happens. Jackie, what difference would you say? So many women of colour being published and read. What difference has that made to the way we all begin to see the world? I think it's made a massive, absolutely massive difference because you can't really see who you want to be unless you can see yourself reflected imaginatively whether that be in theatre or in literature or in poetry and I think in the last 30 years and particularly in the last 10 years there's been an explosion of different voices which has just been so welcome because for years you would be lucky if you came

across one black poet um on the curriculum still i mean i just read in the guardian yesterday that in the the gcses is very few black writers being being taught in in this country still um officially on the syllabus and that all needs to change but certainly there are so many voices that we can read and hear from and so many experiences that we can share and reading does transport you to another world and in order to understand something from another character's point of view reading is one of the best little keys to open the front door and to let you open the window in somebody else's house and so I think it's just been it's just been extraordinary to read writers like Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and Andrea Levy and Jay Bernard,

all sorts of different writers that have come through in the last 20 to 30 years. Jennifer Nasusumba, Mankumbi. There's been a lot of African writers that have come to the fore just in the last 10 years. And that's been really exciting it also makes you think you know where were all these writers and what was the publishing industry doing and what was access like to the publishing industry and that all these questions have are being asked and they continue to be asked and I think we still need to be very very active uh it's wonderful that Bernadette Everestow won the Booker

but she was the first black woman to win the Booker in 50 years of the prize so there are causes for celebration but I think like everybody else is saying we have to keep our eye open because change can easily and quickly be reversed

and sometimes people don't welcome change they're resentful of change, and they start to say, oh yes, but what about white writers? As if white writers hadn't had great opportunities all along. Jude, as women of the world, which is, of course, what WOW is all about, how would you say feminism has spread and become a more acceptable term across the world than what we used to hear called, oh, that other F word?

Yeah, because when I started the WOW festivals, it was over 10 years ago. And that was one of our phrases, you know, is feminism the new F word? Because at that time, particularly young women had been absolutely told, you know, you don't need this any longer. It's old fashioned. And also it was very characterised and caricatured through years of kind of media defamation, I would say. And it wasn't intersectional in many ways. You know, it didn't have an understanding of the range of women's voices that needed to be included but I think traveling all over the world as I have done to the festivals you realize that there's been an incredible tradition in Latin America an incredible tradition in Australasia an incredible tradition in many many parts of the

African continent there's been absolutely extraordinary writers and figures come out of the Indian subcontinent. So, you know, the idea that it's sort of held by white feminists in the global north, that's not how it's perceived around the world. And it's been incredibly important for us, I think, to understand that the learnings that we're getting from around the world, from women in Nepal, from women in Nigeria, have changed the way that we understand something that we are globally subject to, which is a system called patriarchy, not invented by any of the men we love, but nevertheless sustained, that has said women aren't first class, they're second class.

And then, you know, depending on other factors, you know, you are downgraded even further. And I think women around the world now are able to voice that and understand it. And feminism is no longer seen to be something which is a slightly an embarrassing thing to admit to. I think we've taken a lot of energy, haven't we, from young women. I mean, listening to us, International Day of the Girl is in a week's time, and WOW is doing a big celebration of 12-year-olds, 13-year-olds, 14-year-olds, they are able, proudly, to say they're intersectional feminists, and proudly, also, to say that, you know, they're going to talk about period poverty, they're going to talk about climate change and eco-fashion. So it's become a much more intergenerational movement,

as well as a global movement. And kind of the idea that we have to co-learn and unlearn things. I mean, if you think about all the debates around trans and non-binary and how much we are learning and thinking, how much work we're doing between each other. And it makes me, Jackie, go back to people like Audre Lorde, to bell hooks, to Angela Davis, to Maya Angelou, so that I can kind of understand more of what voices around the world have been writing about for years. But we haven't necessarily kind of used them inside our gene pool yet. And we need to. And Women's Hour has actually always been international. Yes, it's had a fantastic UK audience. But I know, you know, when I go to Japan, people say, oh, yes, women's are. So I think that you, Jenny, need to know that you have international reach. Absolutely. You're not just our national treasure.

Although you are that too. Can we just end from each of you? You know, how proud are you all of the legacy we're leaving for the next generation of women jackie i'm i'm very proud jenny and i'd love to ask you a question because you know this is your last oh no it's not allowed please please i just wondering how it's feeling for you being that being presenting this last woman's hour what what does it feel like it's very very strange i'm sitting on a chair which you know i've got my mary berry cake which is right in front of my eyes which is very very exciting um i'm sitting on a chair that because i like a solid chair not a chair that

wiggles around um and it's green and it's been here for years. And the studio managers have put a blue plaque on it saying that Jenny Murray last sat on this chair on the 1st of October 2020. And so it's just very, very strange. But OK, come on. Helena. I would like to wish you a happy National Poetry Day, sat in your chair, having a bit of cake later, because I'd like to salute all the poets out there and all the support that you've given poets on Women's Hour through the years, through the 33 years. So thank you, Jenny. Helena, how proud are you of the legacy we're leaving? Well, listen, the law has changed dramatically on many of the different subjects that you and I

have done over the years, but it hasn't changed enough. And as Harriet has said, a lot of things still exist because of deep seated attitudes that we all have. And that's what we're having to examine now. And when women got involved in Me Too and when they complain about the failures of law, they really are saying you have to start moving some of these areas of change more quickly for us. And the young are just not going to accept it. And I'm inspired by it, like Jude, by the young. I feel optimistic even amongst the wretchedness that I see in the world in the work that I'm doing internationally. And Harriet, what are you most proud of?

Well, I think politics has changed and there is a space for women's voices and an ability to have women sharing decisions that actually make a huge impact on women's as well as men's lives. And I'm very hopeful for the future and the next generation of women who will not be shut up and sidelined and marginalised. But it is still a struggle. And therefore, it's still really important that we have Women's Art going forward and being that space where we can very seriously discuss and deeply discuss a whole range of really, really deep issues which are just missed elsewhere. Harriet Harman, Helena Kennedy, Jackie Kaye and Jude Kelly talking to Jenny on her final edition of Woman's Hour. There will be more from that very particular programme a little later in this one because there was a wonderful highlights compilation

of some of Jenny's golden moments mingled with some of her memories and you'll hear a little bit of that a little bit later. Now a film I enjoyed this week and perhaps if I'm honest didn't really expect to is called A Perfectly Normal Family and it's about the experiences of a little girl, 11 year old Emma, whose father tells her he wants to become a woman. It's based on the director Mallow Raymond's own childhood. She talked to me from her home in Denmark and her father, Helen, joined us from her home in France. Malu told me about her family life. It used to be very normal. We used to be a family of four, my older sister and myself

and my mom and my dad. And my mom was a woman and my dad was a man. So we looked like most other families until I was 11. And suddenly it turned out my dad was actually transgender. So then he transitioned and since then has lived as a woman. And she's called Helen. And she is still my dad, although she's a woman. That's a very brief story. It was an excellent summation. It's the sentence, of course, the sentence that stands out is, she's still my dad. Yes. Yeah, I think there's a lot of confusion about that because obviously we're used to fathers being men and mothers being women,

but that's just not the case with us. And I think we've had to sort that out for ourselves because no one else kind of could mirror that or very few people could. And I think we had bad advice, like for example, now she could become our auntie, which was just not true for us emotionally. So we just had to find our way in it. And I just have to say that a father can be a woman and be a very good father at the same time. Yeah, we should explain this is set, what, 20 years ago? It is, yeah, in 99, which is when my dad transitioned.

And I think it was important to set it there because obviously the whole view on what it means to be transgender has changed a lot, especially in the last five years, maybe. So there was a naivety to it and a kind of people who didn't know what it was that meant that this family was very alone in what they go through, that I wanted to be part of the story. Well, I'll come back to you. Thank you very much for that. And let's talk to Helen.

Tell us a little bit about how you felt when you first saw the film. Well, it was strongly emotional and I was happy I saw it with Malou. Together with Malou, we were the only ones who were able to see it a few months before it went on screen in Denmark. So that was a very, very strong emotional setback to somehow to a period that obviously has been tremendously difficult for all of us. In one way, it was beautiful to do it together with my daughter. On the other hand, it obviously was a huge emotional elevator, if I may say. Yes, well, I'm sure. Did you have any misgivings about the film being made?

Oh, no, not at all. No, no, I actually was very supportive. I was more worried on my daughter's behalf whether she really was ready to go out with a story, especially for her first major movie. And obviously not my story, it was her story. And I think that is important to me and it's probably even more important to her. Yes, I think I'm glad you emphasise that. And I think it is important, Malu, that this is very much seen from the perspective of a young girl and

in the film, and obviously I appreciate it's not all true to life, you are confused and angry and well, there's a lot going on for you, isn't there? Yeah, for sure. And I think that's why it was important for me to take that perspective because

those were the emotions that I knew and that I could kind of portray truthfully in a feature film. So also taking the perspective of Emma meant that it would be possible to kind of have the difficulties of dealing with what it means to be transgender and having a father who undergoes this rather than having it from the person who undergoes the transition. There is a scene in the film when you all go for family therapy and you can't bear to look at your father because she is dressed as a woman and you have a scarf around your head. Did that happen? Well, so it was drawn from two different situations one was we did go to some family therapy which I refused to take part of so I quickly stopped and and the other one was when I actually saw Helen for the first time

as a woman which was after I think I didn't want to see my dad for six months. So when I did finally see my dad again, I really wanted to, and at the same time I really feared it. So I ended up regretting it while she was on her way to meet me. So I just saw a scarf lying there next to me, and I wrapped it around my head because that was my 11-year-old way of dealing with something that was too massive to cope with emotionally. Helen, what do you remember about that? Well, I obviously remember the same thing.

And it was a very tough situation because, as Malou just said, we hadn't seen each other for many, many months. And we were a family in distress. And as many families are when they go through divorce. But this one obviously is an even more special situation, and especially for my daughters, I was extremely nervous of losing them. And, well, that was one of the most difficult times I ever faced but I'm so happy that in the end well it worked out fine. Malu what was it like for you when you you did see your dad dressed as a woman as a woman? The first thing I saw when I took off the scarf was pink snakeskin trousers which my dad was wearing

and and I just thought oh my god this is gonna be as horrible as I thought but then I looked up at her face and looked her into the eyes and then I could see that this person sitting next to me was the same person I had known my whole life and it it was my dad. And of course, it wasn't quite as simple. Like it was still a long journey after that and dealing with so many difficult situations. But I think like that you can see in a person's eyes that it's still the same person means that it still is, but that she of course had to be who she was. In the film, your older sister finds it easier to cope with. And I think that is true, isn't it? She did.

Yeah, she did. She was older, but also I think maybe it was easier for my older sister and my dad after the transition to share some of the feminine things that they could do together. So they shared some interests that I just wasn't interested in, where I instead felt like I lost something that I had with my dad. Well, yes, I was going to ask about that because you are portrayed in the film as what we in Britain call a tomboy. You were a football fanatic.

Football was something you shared with your dad. That was your thing. Was that true? but it was definitely also less gendered. And suddenly when my dad transitioned and became Helen, she was very, very into everything that was feminine in order to kind of find herself as a woman. So suddenly she was into all these things that I didn't care about a bit. And that was confusing because then who is this person actually? Yeah. And that took a while to kind of,

for her to find herself and to be relaxed enough to kind of enjoy things that doesn't have to be extremely feminine. I think that this is the brilliance of your film, actually, which I should say, I do think is really good

because you are so nuanced in the way you approach that. And Emma's story is very powerfully told. And your mother, Malu, what about her? Obviously, it was also very difficult for her. And I think she did lose her husband. Like, we ended up not losing our dad, even though we were afraid of it. But my mother obviously did lose her husband.

And I think that's another aspect to it, which was really difficult to kind of go through a divorce that is obviously very painful and at the same time deal with losing a person that is still there. Malu, just very briefly, who do you want to see this film? I made the film so that you can see it across generations. It's quite a straightforward film. I really wanted people to watch it, like grown-ups to watch it with their children,

obviously kind of older children. But my experience here in Denmark is that from 10, 12 years, you can watch it. And then you'll get something different out of it than someone who is 40. But I think it is really possible to watch it across generations. So I hope that families will go and watch it together. The name of that film is A Perfectly Normal Family. It's released in some cinemas today

and it's streaming as well on modern films and on other digital platforms. It's good, actually. It's really quite an insight into what that child's life was like around the time of her father announcing that he was going to transition. Now, our Our Planet Women's Hour Power List reveal programme is on the 16th of November. Thank you so much for all the many, many, many suggestions we've had. So many of you have been good enough to tell us about women that you know about who are doing really important stuff to protect the environment, to improve things. It could be on a national level. It's something perhaps happening in your locality, even in your street. We've had some really, really brilliant suggestions. So thank you to everybody.

I think it's fair to say that we don't need any more. But what we can offer you next week, in fact, on Tuesday morning, three of our judges, Alice Larkin and Flo Hedlum, the gardener from Gardeners World, and Lucy Siegel, will take your questions on how we can all live better, greener lives. on social media at BBC Women's Hour or you can email the programme via our website. Really want to get your involvement in that one coming your way on Tuesday morning of next week. Now, we let a loose woman loose on Women's Hour this week, TV presenter Andrea McLean. She's written a book called This Girl Is On Fire and in it she shares her own experiences of overcoming difficult relationships, a breakdown and burnout to help us see that we can change ourselves and change our lives.

I do think that so many of us get to this age. You know, I'm 50, but there are many women in particular younger than this who feel the same. You're sort of turning up every day doing the same sort of things. You're wondering why life isn't necessarily turning out the way that you planned, hoped, dreamed, whatever. But the whole premise of the book is that if you keep doing the same things and expecting a different result, that's the definition of insanity. You need to stop and take a look at what you're doing and figure out, A, what is it that you actually want? What is it that makes you happy in the first place? Because I think a lot of us, we don't even know. We know that we're not terribly happy with what we're doing.

But if someone sat you down and said, what do you want? You'd kind of shrug and raise an eyebrow. I don't know. But sometimes you are, in fact, doing exactly what you thought you wanted to do when you were a little girl. But it isn't quite the way you thought it would be. And I guess sometimes I suppose that occurs to me and I'm sure it occurs to millions of other people listening. It's just you think sometimes, OK, was this what I wanted? Have you had moments like that, too?

Oh, gosh, of course. And I think, you know, and again, I think it is an age thing. I think we get to a point where we think, do you know, I am, I'm sitting here doing this incredible job and it's not, and I know Jane, this is something that you yourself have felt. Is this actually all I want to do? I know I've ticked all the boxes that I think I want to tick. And I know that there are many mums listening right now whose kids have gone off to university. Sadly, some of them have had to come back because of what we're going through right now.

Haven't you got a son who's just set off? Yeah, yeah, he has just set off. So I'm sort of a half-empty nest, so he's the first one to go. And I've still got a teenage daughter at home and two beautiful stepdaughters who come in and out of our lives. So, yes, yes, my life is very much in transition. And one of the things that I think you do realize when you get to this point is actually there's no set rule. You don't go to school, meet a man, get married, live happily ever after, have kids, the end.

Actually, your whole life is in a state of flux and you need to constantly sort of re-evaluate, am I doing actually what I want to do? You know, am I heading where I want to head? And now I'm actually here. Has it turned out exactly as I wanted? And what changes can I make if I don't feel that it is? Well, what changes could we make? The first thing I would say is take control. I think for someone who, you know, I'm a very easygoing sort of person and I think when you are living in, you know, a busy house or you've got a demanding job, it can be easier just to kind of let things slide, you know, don't sweat the small stuff and that sort of thing. But for me, what that can end up

happening is that you hand over your control and that can lead you to feeling powerless, it can make you feel anxious, make you feel overwhelmed. Even right now, for example, driving into work now is like driving in Armageddon. I don't know what is happening on the roads at the moment, but it's like Armageddon. It's ITV, is it? Yeah, so I don't live in London, but I work in central London.

So what I do, for example, of taking control of something is I now leave for work ridiculously early. I get into work a good hour and a half before I'm actually needed just to avoid the stress of rush hour. that could be stressing you out right now. What is actually in your control that you feel like everything is totally beyond your reach, but actually what is it that you can do in tiny, tiny little ways that can give you some sort of feeling of control? Okay. So, I mean, you're a bit like me. You like to get in early so you can pester your colleagues. So what few colleagues you're allowed to have in the office. Exactly, yeah. I'm never entirely sure how welcome the presenters are early on in the day.

Not very. No, I think you and I are both in the same boat there. I'm interested too, I mean, you've written very, very successfully in the past about the menopause. Do you think there's a danger that far from there being a taboo about the menopause now, that maybe we're too keen to go on about it and its possible impact? I mean, I genuinely don't know what the answer to that question is, but I'm interested in what you think. I think it's a really interesting question because the response is so varied.

My previous book was about the menopause, and when I was researching it to put it out there, it wasn't necessarily met with a huge round of applause. Not many people were terribly happy at the idea of this book coming out that was men and women what was great is obviously it opened a debate and started a discussion and now it is wonderful everyone is talking about it but I do understand the thought process that this is something that women have been going through forever yeah and we do need to get on with it. Yes, I totally agree with that.

What I disagree with is the fact that you have to or you're expected to just put up with. Getting on with is very different to putting up with. So I think as long as you can put as much great information out there to help any women who want to access it, they're two very different things. Obviously your appearance is going to change as we age, appearance changes.

I was intrigued by the fact that in the book, you mentioned an agent of yours, not currently your agent, I don't think, who would ring up and comment on your appearance negatively after they'd seen Loose Women. What was all that about? That was control.

And that was because this particular agent that I had had a very, very strong idea as to how women should look when they were presenting on the telly. And if I ever sort of deviated away from that look, then it was met with a very strong rebuffle. But they're no longer my agent. Well, they sound absolutely golden, Andrea. Well, you live and learn yeah and to be honest a lot of the book is about you doing both of those both of those two things um yeah you also obviously um you did celebrity sas is the name of the show isn't it yes there's a clue in the title there andrea you must have known it wasn't going to be and it's not the

word celebrity well i don't know that's also a warning sign as far as I'm concerned. But anyway, what was it like? Oh, it was hell on earth. Well, it certainly sounds it. Do you know what it was? It was life changing. And when I was first offered the chance to go on it, I actually turned it down three times because I thought it sounded way too hard and too scary and not my cup of tea at all. But then I sort of thought, maybe there's a reason this keeps coming back. Maybe I'm meant to do this. So I thought, how far do you actually go when you set your own limits? Well, you know, whether you go to the gym or whether you do whatever, you kind of impose your own limits.

How far do we go when someone else sets those limits? And it's someone that is so far removed from your normal sort of life, an SAS Marine. So I thought I'd give it a go. And I did it because I wanted to prove that at the time when I did it, I was almost 50. I'm nearly 51 now. I wanted to sort of prove to myself that I'm halfway through, not halfway done. Just because I've reached middle age doesn't mean that I just want to think, right, that's it now. I really was interested to see how far I was capable of going. What I realized was not very far. And I was all right with that. Okay, now I know.

Yes, but we need to make clear, for anyone who hasn't seen the programme, there are some brutal elements. You are kidnapped. Yes, yes. And you're marched along, you have a black bag pulled over your head, cotton, not plastics, clearly plastics, dangerous kids. What the essence of the programme is, is they push you to your absolute mental and physical limits.

And physically, I knew I was not going to be as good as the others because I was the oldest person to ever take part at that point. Most contestants are in their twenties and thirties. I was nearly 50. Yeah, but you're a fit woman. Yeah, but then you realize very quickly there's fit and then there's insane and that's what they were. But to me, it was the mental side of things that it was life-changing for because the brutality of it was something that, for me, sort of blasted open so many things that I'd kept hidden.

The way I sort of write it in the book, there's a moment when one of the SAS men ripped this black cotton bag off my face and it was as if when he pulled the bag off, my mask came off. And it was like he'd ripped off my mum mask, my wife mask, my presenter mask, my woman mask, all these different masks that we put up to make the world think that we're intelligent,

we're capable, we're cheerful, we're presentable. So there you are, you're laid bare in front of a... Absolutely raw and vulnerable. And actually, that's an incredible place to start putting yourself back together again, because when in real life would we ever do that? Never. We would never put ourselves through this. Andrea McLean, anonymous emailer, says, No, Jane, there isn't enough talk about menopause. It's 100% inevitable for women, and so many of us are literally fighting for help and information. Poor GPs are stretched, but really, come on, kids,

better education for them. Every practice should have a menopause-trained GP. This is going to happen to over half of the population, so why don't we get the right help? From Sarah, I'm 59. I've just graduated with a first class honours degree in drama after I retired early. Best decision I ever made. Your 50s is a time when new freedoms are often possible. Yep, that's true, Sarah. Thank you for that. And from Kate, I turned 60 in early February. As a 59-year-old, I had this summer taken up road cycling, which is so freeing and

exhilarating. But I've also just started surfing. I can't begin to tell you how amazing that feels. I'm like a child again as the waves just toss me around. It is brilliant. My advice to anybody is That's good. That's powerful stuff there from Kate. Thank you very much for that. We love getting your emails. I know there have been a lot this week just saying how much you're going to miss Jenny. Thank you very much for them. Keep your thoughts coming via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. The programme goes nowhere. I'm rumbling on until after Christmas

and then Emma Barnett takes over in January and it is going to be great. Now the 2020 Women's Hour Power List is looking for women who are making a significant difference to the health of our planet. For that power does not have to be held by boards or by leading international organisations. It's all about so-called ordinary women and the efforts they're making on the ground. surveys officer for butterfly conservation about her volunteers turning their love of nature

into hard data directly influencing policy in this country they are the bedrock of our organization butterfly conservation is the largest insect conservation charity in the uk we've got more than 40 000 members of which 53 are female We've got over 120,000 supporters. And last year alone, they contributed £14 million worth of volunteer effort. And in terms of time, that's 220,000 hours. And I did some maths at two o'clock this morning and worked out that that's 25 years of effort in last year alone. So that so that's absolutely incredible and what these people do is they collect data for our citizen science projects we've got eight citizen science projects these are casual recording casual recording or some more standardized monitoring which

needs a greater level of engagement and time consumption but we've basically got something for everybody and all this data that's collected it tells us where species are and how many there are so that then enables us to make decisions to target our landscape scale conservation work on the ground to make bigger better more joined up landscapes and these are like the crown jewels for butterflies and moths. And they're where we build our partnership projects because we're stronger together. Right. Yes. A little bit, forgive me, but a little bit of jargon in what you've just said. I just want to know, it's so important, Zoe, and I love the way you put it into quite

crude financial terms as well, because I think that's important. But what does it mean and how do these volunteers, actually, their good works, how do these volunteers actually they're good they're good works how do they go on to affect policy so like i said all this data is collected and we can target conservation work in landscapes which are good for butterflies and moths and so then they can actually having collected the data we've probably got we've got another lot that check the data make sure it's all accurate and everything. They're also volunteers. And then we do landscape scale conservation on the ground. So people go out and they can do brush cutting and they can actually do proper management, brush cutting, chainsawing, scrub clearance, all of that stuff to improve the habitats for the target butterfly and moth species that we're looking to conserve.

Can I ask a daft question? Is it possible to move butterflies into an environment or a landscape that they don't currently inhabit? Well, we have done that, actually. We've just recently, as one of our big, massive partnership projects developed by Natural England and Rethink Nature. It's a group of seven conservation organisations. We have managed to successfully reintroduce the checkered skipper butterfly into Rockingham Forest in Northamptonshire. So this butterfly went extinct in England quite some time ago. The only known colonies were up in Scotland until this reintroduction. So yes, it is. But what you need to do is all of

that reintroduction, and we've had similar successes with the large blue butterfly as well with the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology. But what you need, you can't just pick up butterflies and put them somewhere. What you need to do is- Well, that's what I was going to ask. How do you do it? All the reintroduction work is based on sound scientific evidence. So the species needs to have lived there at some point in the past. So it's got a history in these particular areas or landscapes or sites. So, yeah, you can't just pick it up and move it because it just won't survive.

You need to make sure that the conditions are exactly what the species needs. Now, we know that butterflies do need specific habitats. You've outlined that. The prime minister has said he's going to protect a further 400,000 hectares of land by 2030. Where might that land be? Where should it be? What we need is we need real strong political will and an investment. We really need to invest in our environment because ultimately we need it. It's for all of us. Every single species on the planet needs the environment. And that includes us. So we really need you know, he needs to be really committed to this.

And I know he said something the other day about a stitching time saves nine. Well, in terms of environmental stuff, I think we're up to the nine stitches. So we really do need to crack on and do stuff now. Yeah, I think that the use of a stitch in time has to be said, as far as I understand it, completely mystified at least 60% of the British population who'd never heard it before. But anyway, it's good to bring it back, Zoe. Right, climate change, brief question on that, if there ever could be. Surely, do you have concerns about the way this summer has panned out? And what has been the impact on the British butterfly population,

as that's what we're focusing on just for this brief chat this morning? We've just released the results of the big butterfly count yesterday. The average number of butterflies per count is down to the lowest in the 11-year series of the project. Well, that's worrying, isn't it? It is worrying. And a lot of that is due to climate change. Butterfly populations do fluctuate annually and it's based on the weather. This year, we had a fabulous spring, so some species took advantage of that and had really good first broods which then led to really good second sort of generation second broods of species like the large white and the small white but because some of the

single brooded species like the meadow brown ringlet and marbled white because they came out earlier and they only have one brood per year by the time the big butterfly count came along they were all starting to tail off so you know the wet february the really wet february's had an impact the warm springs had an impact and overall our butterflies are declining three quarters of species are are declining but it's depressing but we need people people need to feel empowered and we can make a difference and we have turned the tide on so many species we've brought back the Duke of Burgundy from the verge of extinction the large blue's been reintroduced the checkers skip has been

reintroduced and loads and loads of species loads of really positive work that people can get involved in and really make a change. And our volunteers have got really valuable skills which can be utilised to make a positive difference. That's Zoe Randall. Don't forget Tuesday is the morning when we'll have some of our powerless judges answering your questions about how to lead a greener life. Now Thursday, as I say, was Jenny's final edition of Woman's Hour, and we played you some of it already. We're going to now include some of Jenny's own memories and's programme. So here we go. This next bit is not, I assure you, about me showing off, but I've encountered so many extraordinary men and women during what is almost half my lifetime, some of whom were a delight to interview, others less so. I wish we could include all of it. If you want to hear all of this, go to BBC Sounds

and find Thursday's edition of Woman's Hour. But here's a little bit. Jenny discussed seduction techniques with the writer Maya Angelou. And do you believe you could actually seduce a young man with a lemon meringue pie? With lemon meringue pie, with the steak and kidney pie, with the eggs done very, very well. Oh, yes, you just have to be all that. I mean, catch them at the right time.

Maya Angelou was, I think, probably the most charming woman I've ever met. She was complete and utter delight. Toni Morrison, also amazing. One of the cleverest women I've ever, ever come across. Wonderful, wonderful novelist. But I honestly think the peak of my career has been Joan Byers. Well, I'll be damned

Here comes your ghost again I mean, I was her greatest fan, together with my friend Linda Mead. We liked to think in our teens that we actually were Joan Byers. We knew her entire songbook. So suddenly she was coming in to talk about her autobiography and how much she loved Bob Dylan and how much we had also loved Bob Dylan. It didn't last for very long.

Two years, the relationship. For me, it was long. No, for me, it was probably lengthy. Then it was wonderful. Was it wonderful? A lot of it was wonderful, yeah. That time, those songs, us being sort of thrust together by that circumstance and having fun with it.

She was charming. She was funny. And my absolute favorite song of hers is Diamonds and Rust, which looks back on her long affair with Bob Dylan. And I told her that was my favorite. She sat here in this studio with her guitar and for my benefit she actually sang Downends and Rust and I cried to myself.

Nobody would have known but I was sobbing inside because she was so wonderful. You're not nostalgic Well give me another word for it You were so good with words If you do a programme like Women's Hour, you have to consistently remind yourself

that women are a vast range. There are many, many, many different stereotypes that fit our gender. So there is no one stereotypical woman. But our sex, we share. In the script, it says, I've got to say, that was Jenny Murray. But I think you probably know who that was. Here's an email from Judy who says, You were always there in the kitchen, such a comforting and sensible voice.

I've now grown into an old biddy. I'm sure you haven't, Judy. But at every stage, you were there for me. Cooking disasters, family problems, politics, COVID. How will I cope without someone to consult or shout at? Thank you, Jenny, for all your hard work and remaining stoic dealing with your own health problems. Good luck for the future. Good luck to the new Women's Hour team. Judy, thank you very much. You've got some of the old Women's Hour team, as I say,

staggering on until the end of the year. And I'm really looking forward to it, actually. I think we're going to have some interesting times between now and the end of December. But, Judy, thank you very much for that. And as I say, one of many, many emails just saying how much you'll miss Jenny. We do appreciate the time you've taken to contact us. Next week, Monday morning, my guests will include only Mary out of Mary and Giles from Gogglebox. And we'll also be asking

whether more disabled people could be the answer to the fostering crisis. That is Monday morning. Oh, and also we're discussing the new drama Adult Material. I'll be talking to the writer, Lucy Kirkwood,

and the actress Hayley Squires, who plays Jolene Dollar, a mother of three and one of the top porn performers in the UK. That's the character. Hope you can join us then. Have a good weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.