Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Jessie Ware, Women managaing male footballers, Comedian Susie McCabe

Episode Date: April 18, 2026

The singer-songwriter Jessie Ware's new album, Superbloom, was released this week. As well as being known for her music, Jessie's family’s passion for food led to the weekly podcast, Table Manners, that she co-hosts with her mother Lennie, featuring celebrity guests like Ed Sheeran and Kylie. Jessie joins Datshiane Navanayagam to talk about her new album, inspired by disco and funk and how she became more confident in her 40s.We hear about a new report alleging breaches of the Online Safety Act. Children as young as 13 could be recommended sexually explicit content on the social media platform X, according to the Centre for Countering Digital Hate, who say X's algorithm and what it describes as "weak safeguards" mean teenagers are also being exposed to possible direct sexual contact from adults. Imran Ahmed, CEO at the Centre for Countering Digital Hate joins Datshiane to explain.For the first time, a woman has been appointed to coach a men's team in one of Europe's top five football leagues. Marie-Louise Eta has been named interim Head Coach of Union Berlin in the German Bundesliga, the equivalent of the Premier League here. It's a sudden appointment, until the end of the season, and it follows a string of losses and the dismissal of the previous coach. We talk to Rosi Webb, previously one of the few female coaches in charge of a men's team in England for five years, alongside Laura McAllister, former international footballer and Vice President of UEFA.Figures show there are close to one million people diagnosed with dementia in the UK, of which two thirds are women. A campaign to highlight the caring duties that fall on the families of those diagnosed with young-onset dementia launches this week. We hear from Emilia, who spent her teenage years tussling with the medical community to get her mother - in her late 40s - diagnosed, and Amy Pagan from the charity Younger People With Dementia.Scottish comedian Susie McCabe is a stalwart of the BBC comedy scene - from The News Quiz and Breaking the News to Just a Minute and Have I Got News For You? It was in 2024, while touring, that she had a heart-attack. She was only in her mid-forties at the time. It made her not only take a long hard look at her life, but it also inspired her latest show, Best Behaviour. Susie joins Nuala McGovern to discuss making comedy gold out of life's trials and tribulations.Presenter: Datshiane Navanayagam Producer: Simon Richardson

Hello and welcome to the program, bringing you highlights from the Women's Hour Week. As she launches her new album, singer-songwriter Jessie Ware, talks to me about her process and opening up about her life through music. I love normal life. I was enjoying living normality in all its kind of forms. And so I wanted to allow like domesticity to be a part of this record. We also have a moving interview with a young woman about caring for her mother who suffered from young onset dementia. She was like, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm absolutely fine. This is ridiculous.

Of course I don't have dementia. It could never happen to me at this age especially. There's comedian Susie McCabe on turning a health crisis into comedy. God bless the two middle-aged paramedics who came and literally done ECGs and they saved my life. And we hear about the first woman appointed to coach a men's team in one of Europe's top five football leagues. She'll probably be feeling that most females experience when they walk in, into a room full of mouths that they have to prove themselves and the spotlight is on them. But if you look at football now, probably five to six games is all you get to number

one win the team over but get results and win fans over. So let's get going. The singer-songwriter Jessie Ware has seven Brit nominations, two Mercury Prize nominations and five top ten albums under her belt. As well as being known for making music, Jessie's family passion for food has also led to her co-hosting with her mum Lenny the podcast Table Manners, featuring a host of celebrity guests like Ed Shearren and Kylie.

Well, Jessie's new album, Superbloom, was released yesterday. On Thursday, when Jessie joined me in the Woman's Hour studio, I began by asking her just how she approaches writing her songs. Mostly it's dictated by the melody. I'll kind of like hum and have a beat, and my producer or my co-writer would be playing music and I'll be singing around. But for some of the songs on this record,

such as, well, 16 summers, I kind of had this idea for this song and I started singing this chorus before I had any chords to it. So it varies and that was, yeah. I mean, you're talking to someone who's very non-musical. The idea that you can just be kind of going around and a chorus or a melody comes to you blows my mind. Well, it blew my mind too, to be honest.

It doesn't usually happen like this. But I was on a bike, I was on a line bike, going to another session. And I had this title, 16 summers, and I was like, well, I'm just going to kind of sing some things on the, I feel like when you're in motion, whenever I'm doing like laps in the swimming pool, which is quite not that regular. Or riding a bike. Well, you can't look at your phone. I think that's it. You're kind of with yourself. So there's more ideas.

Yeah, the phone, the death of creation. Oh, I know. Well, tell us what's the subject matter this time around with the album because it's quite different from what's gone before, not just music. Yeah, I mean, I think for the past two records, I was very much enjoying this escapism and storytelling with characters. I think I was kind of ready to allow real life to come back in in a more kind of vulnerable and open form.

So whilst there are characters on this record, such as a lady called Shirley Bloom on a song called Don't You Know Who I Am. I'm also, I was loving my life that I was being, I have three kids and I love being a parent and a partner, but I love normal life. I also love that I get to dress up in sequence and sing around the world, it's fab.

But I think I was enjoying living normality in all its kind of forms. And so I wanted to allow like domesticity to be a part of this record, unsexy that may sound. You know, it was a wonderful feeling being able to write about my children and whilst I had kind of shied away from that maybe previously. Do you think this album is more you then?

Or maybe just... I think maybe with the success of the last few records and the podcast where it's very warts and all and you hear my mum and I going at each other and I felt more ready to take off the mask a bit more and let you. down my guard. But I think all my records are me, but I think that, you know, I'm maybe more direct in this one. I mean, I was having a listen last night and I loved 16 Summers. You briefly mentioned it earlier. And you can hear the sound of children at the beginning. So just just tell us who those children are and why we're hearing them. So it's, it comes, 16 Summers

comes after, don't you know who I am, where I am playing a character. Shirley Bloom, she lives in the med, she's deluded, she's fabulous. And I wanted to kind of segue these tracks from complete, well, fiction to beautiful and harsh reality with this, the sounds of the waves. I go to an island called Scopoulos in Greece every year with my family. I've been going since I was six years old, got married there, my children now adore it. And on this island we have a favourite beach called Liminanari Beach, and it's the sound of the waves with my son, my youngest, my four-year-old playing in the waves. And it's that idyllic

moment where summer's, well, nearly over. And that's what we hear at the beginning. That's what you're hearing at the beginning. And it's that kind of peaceful time when lots of people have left the beach and the sun's nearly gone down. And so I wanted to kind of sit in that for a moment. And so, yeah, my kids are a part of it in, because I think, you know, they are so much they are of my life. They are everything that I'm obsessed with them as all parents are. And so I wanted for more selfish reasons to have these kind of vignettes of family, beautiful family moments on the record. And it's called 16 summers, I think because you've said you get 16 summers with them to yourself. No, so from the podcast, we have lots of wonderful chats and, you know, when I had Gillian Anderson

on the podcast, she was talking about her book, Want, which was a collection of, you know, essays on desire. And from that, I wrote, I could get used to this and referenced Nancy Friday's Secret Garden. And but with 16 summers, Jason Manford had been on. And he was like, well, you know, you only get 16 summers with your kids. And I thought, well, God, that's depressing. And also that's not true in the case of my mother and I where we're tethered. But I thought about that notion and about time and losing time. And, you know, we're trying to rush everything so much, whether it's bedtime or, you know,

get them out the door. for school and you're tired and it's about, you know, it's very hard to sometimes appreciate that they're only little for so long and they only want to be in your orbit for, hopefully they'll always want to hang out with me. But I thought about this and I thought 16 summers had a beautiful kind of lilt and ring to it. And then I started thinking about what that would mean, like if that's all I'm going to get, then what am I going to do with this time with my loved ones? I'm being indulgent asking you this, but also at the start of your track, love you, you can hear a giggle.

Yeah. A little child's voice saying, love you the rest of your life. Is that... Those are my three kids that came in. It's a song. My daughter demanded that I wrote a song for my youngest because she thought it wasn't fair.

She's very all about fairness and she... I think fair enough. Didn't think it was fair that she had one. Poor girl got the most depressing apologetic song. I need to rewrite one for her. And then my middle one had had one. So she was like, you need to write one for the youngest. But it's really for all of them.

And so I thought, well, I may as well, get them on the track because that'd be quite fun. They misbehaved in the studio totally. It was like mum bringing them to the office and... You should have brought them in here today, really. Oh, no, no, no, no. There'd be lots of talk of poo and we. Again, and other things.

We sometimes discuss that album without you. My favourite topic. Now, what's really interesting as well about your album is you have these lovely sort of family songs that are so nostalgic in a way. But there's also a few tracks that are quite risque. Tell us about those. For example, you've got Ride, which is a Western-inspired video with the act of James Norton. I was watching it last night.

Just tell us what it was, what it is, and how much fun was that to make. And why did you pick James Norton and what did he say when you asked him? I've just given you a whole barrier questions there. Yeah, I have a few risque ones. And I think I feel very kind of confident and free to talk about sexuality and sensuality and pleasure and desire. and desire. And that song is very much a kind of role play. I mean, it's definitely fictitious.

It interpolates the good, the bad, the ugly. The do-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-do. And I am a woman in it that is, well, I'm telling the cowboy what to do. And so I saw James at a party and I asked him if he could ride a horse and he could. and it's just so happens he can ride a horse phenomenally and he listened to the song and he was up for it and I think that he

was such a good sport and you know he's quite easy on the ice I thought that I'd take one for the team and you know and let everyone see James Norton with his top off and I'm sure many of us are very glad

that you did I think we ruffled the Grantchester fans a little bit so apologies to them Well, as well as your album, you've also just announced a huge arena tour. And, I mean, on stage, you look like a real disco d. But how much do you enjoy that element of live performance? I adore it. And I feel like I've got better at it as I've had this job for longer.

You know, confidence and fans that just are so supportive and encourage me. I love it. I think it's, you know, a beautiful, the most excited. part of my job. When I'm making these records, I'm thinking about that live show and how it's that immediate connection with fans. My kids came to a little acoustic show that I came. I did last week.

And, I mean, two of them, I think, were on YouTube by, you know, the third song, which I think is totally fair enough. But my daughter was quite interested in. She's the eldest. But I want them to also see that I, the reason I'm maybe out at night sometimes is because I get to do the most amazing job. get to have this amazing connection with people. You recently performed at the Bafters.

Yeah. What was that like? Because you sang the way we were. And it was, I mean, it was very emotional. And this was the part of the show where photos are shown of artists who have recently died and it included Robert Redford. What was that like? It was a huge honour.

And I also am a huge fan of Barber Streis and that song. So to get the chance to sing it, but also I think you have to, you know, it's in a very poignant moment. and lots of those people that I'm singing to in the audience will have worked with these people on the screen. So I wanted to deliver something that felt sensitive and I was terrified. To be honest, I was terrified. But Hannah Waddingham gave me a pep talk before I went on.

She'd sung it the year before. She'd sung, I think, time after time, Cindy Lauper. And she just held my hand and she said, don't think about the people in that room. Think about the people that have lost somebody. And I think, don't think about it as performing for these people in the room think about it as people that have lost somebody and she'd lost her mum I think in the past year and so she said I feel like they're all in good hands Jesse and she really it

really get it made I think the performance even more kind of sentimental and powerful because yeah it's these people have lost not only have we lost cinema grades but you know these people have lost friends and it made me think about people that I've lost I mean it was a hugely emotional performance and you know you mentioned there that you still got nervous before it but you've you've grown in confidence what's your 40s been like you've spoken a bit about yeah i'm enjoying my 40s i feel like i am more comfortable in my own skin i am more confident in my career and also as a businesswoman but also i think we've we're out of that stage with the stage of my kids you know we're out of that stage of kind of nappies and mostly no sleepless nights.

But, you know, it's that madness of a new parent. I'm out of that. The kids are at school. There's that kind of renegotiation with your partner of how do we work now that we aren't a kind of an operational team. And so I love it. I feel incredibly confident in my body and myself. And I love my 40s.

I'm definitely there. I mean, I'm only one year, two years. Yeah. And definitely better than my 20s. Oh, I hated my 20s. Well, you know, we're discussing today this idea of hunger and how many of us have. Yeah. So, I mean, because, you know, you've had albums. There's the performing, the live element, a podcast with your mom, three children. I mean, how do you, I mean, I'm, you must have this hungry. You must have a hunger. How do you control it? And is it ever enough? I sometimes I think my husband and I think very differently and I think he would say are you not content with what you have and I am I'm so appreciative but I do have a hunger and an ambition

and sometimes I think that can be seen as a negative sometimes with people but it's something that keeps things exciting for me I do love what I've got though and I don't take it for granted but I definitely that I need to read that book It's not something that you struggle to control then?

Yeah, I think we all kind of struggle with it. Yeah, I do. I think sometimes you do need to just stay put. I'm definitely the most impatient person I know. And with that, I think there's this hunger. Jessie Ware talking to me on Thursday, her new album Superbloom is out now. We also heard a surprisingly uplifting account of living with dementia on Tuesday. Two thirds of those diagnosed are women.

but we tend to think of dementia as a condition that only affects older people. Actually, about one in 12 people with dementia in the UK are diagnosed in their 40s and 50s. This is known as young onset dementia, where symptoms present below the age of 65. So what happens to families when dementia strikes at that point? Well, someone who knows about this only too well is Amelia, who, as a teenager, cared for her mother.

Sadly, last year her mum died. Amelia joined Nula in the Women's Hour studio to share her story, along with Amy Pagan from the charity Younger People with Dementia, as they launched a new campaign, dementia doesn't care. As Amelia explains, with her mum, it wasn't the typical loss of memory symptoms people often think indicate something is wrong. So with my mum, one of the big things was she was a very good driver.

She could like parallel park anywhere in London. And suddenly she was really struggling to drive. And it was particularly at night with the last. lights. So initially we kind of thought, oh, she's just, you know, it might be a vision problem or she's just feeling about anxious about driving at night and that was fine. And then it got worse and worse and it ended up being, you know, I'd be driving with her and she'd be swerving towards the curb.

And it was very, yeah, dangerous. And it was more so things to do with vision. And also, yeah, she was feeling very anxious, very paranoid. She was beginning to forget. She was very independent person. She nannied. What age was she at this day? She was late 40s at this point.

And you? 14, probably. So, yeah, she would have been 47 around there. So it was just little things where my very, very highly independent mom, very, you know, she was cleaned the house. It was her pride and joy. She looked after me and my little sister while my dad was at work. And it was her whole life.

Suddenly we were kind of like, oh, there's something going wrong here. because my mum who's so independent and so sure of herself suddenly was feeling really not. So she went to the doctor. Yes. But it was really difficult to get a diagnosis. It was really tough. So we went to the doctor obviously being like,

there's something going on here. And the initial thing was it's likely menopause because obviously she was around that age. And we were like, okay, fine. We were doing HRT. And then it wasn't getting any better. And also there weren't any other symptoms typically of menopause. So we were sort of thinking this is, this doesn't sound quite right.

And then, yes, there was menopause and then it was anxiety. It was dyspraxia. This was over, until her diagnosis, it was about four or five years. It was a very long-winded process. So you did eventually get a diagnosis. How did that feel? That felt honestly like an absolute relief. Really? Because I think if it wasn't what we were expecting, it would have been heartbreaking. But me and my dad for so many years had been absolutely convinced. We were like, this isn't typical of anything other than dementia. And we'd been so certain and my mum was so understandably in denial and it was causing so much friction in our household because we were, me, my sister and my dad were caring for her and we were trying to bring

her to doc's appointments. She was completely against the idea of going to them because she was like, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm absolutely fine. This is really fine. This is really, ridiculous. Of course I don't have dementia. It could never happen to me at this age especially. And then when we finally got diagnosis in 2022, so symptoms started around 2017. It was very long process. My mum, I think it kind of hit her like a ton of bricks even though she probably knew. So I remember her being very upset. But me and my dad, like, I have memories of the day. It was like completely unlike you'd expect on the day that like my mom got diagnosed with dementia. There's like a photo of us outside with sandwiches from like Marks and Spencers just because it was that thing of

finally now we can start the process of getting support. And also you're getting support and people believing you or kind of having some sort of framework. But what did it mean in terms of caring duties and managing what your mother, of course, as I mentioned, lynchpin there, I feel is probably the proper word. She was holding it all together until this hit. Yeah.

So as a carer, it was really, yeah, it was a weird transition because like I say, It was me and my sister and my mum was the one who, you know, if we forgot a book at school, we'd be like, I'll be like, Mom, can you bring in my book, my maths book, I'm going to get in trouble. And she was always in motion doing that kind of thing. And then it was suddenly something I mentioned to my dad, as talking to me yesterday, was the fact that it then became in the house that she always cleaned. We were having to clean it without her knowing we were cleaning the house.

So it would be like, oh, mom, why didn't you go out with your friend? and then me and my dad and my sister would deep clean the house. She had come back and then she'd, you know, wipe up the surfaces and she'd feel like she still had that independence. So that was a caring aspect in terms of caring for her dignity and her independence and making her still feel like she had like a real purpose. It's mental gymnastics though. Like, yeah, no better word for it.

It's completely, I mean, I was speaking to, I was speaking to Amy earlier about the thing of you're constantly, you know, one of the big things was, I mean, you lose all abilities really in terms of like getting dressed and all that kind of thing. And towards the end, I think also with being her oldest daughter, she felt very happy with me helping her. Because it was that thing of being a woman and having her daughter versus her husband who was, my dad's was, has been an absolute lifeline through all this. But having in her mind like this figure dominating or whatever. And it ends up being, I'd help her get dressed. And I'll see I was saying to me, you'd, finally, my mum's dress, brilliant.

I go in the bathroom, I'll go and grab you, grab you, you know, perfume. I walk back in, oh, mommy, you're completely undressed again. Let's do that again. Okay, go back and get your perfume. Oh, again, okay. And it's that, oh. But you're also parenting your parents. Completely.

Which was a really weird process because in one way it was awful and it was horrible and disorientating. because yeah totally it was me sitting with her and regulating her emotions and everything but also then when she died it was that loss of purpose almost where I was like I cared for her so much and we all did and we all looked after her and you get glimpses of her

and you'd make her laugh and all that kind of thing and then suddenly that was gone and it really yeah we in the last year we've all been trying to navigate that lack of yeah purpose purpose yeah I mean it's been also as you're a young woman and you talk about this starting when you were 14,

it's been a big proportion of your life as well. Again, I am sorry for your loss. Amy, let me bring you in here. You know, Amelia's talk about battling to get a diagnosis, her mother's refusal to engage with the condition. How common is what Amelia is telling us? It's so common. We hear it from a lot of the people that we support

that it took such a long time for, them to receive the diagnosis and we know that post-diagnostic support is so, it's so important, you know, with the services that we provide. It's so important in making sure that the carers have that respite while the person that they're caring for is with us. So yeah, it happens a lot and unfortunately, on average, it takes twice as long for someone living with young onset dementia to get diagnosed as it does for someone living with dementia 65 plus. Any difference between men and women? So with young onset dementia, there are an estimated 41% of women living with young onset

dementia. So in terms of the statistics, it means that more men are living and diagnosed with young onset dementia. So that means that there's more women who are caring for their partners. Because I'm just wondering, because we cover women's health a lot, even more on tomorrow's program as well, but it can be difficult to get a diagnosis for anything, you know, that sometimes they feel they're met with silence or questions in a way at times that men are not within the medical system. And I don't know how it relates to this, but it's just something that comes to my mind. I'm wondering for you, Amelia, I mean, how did it affect your life? I mean, they are crucial years in school, for example, your studies. How did you manage?

So it's, yeah, a question I think about all the time. Honestly, it was a thing. It was just, like you say, a complete balancing act. And also, I think I managed because you had to. And it was a thing of, you know, I just wanted to help in the house and whatever. But the impact, I think, in the last year, I've been able to reflect on so much more since my mum's been gone. Because I think it all suddenly comes flooding to you

when you haven't got the immediate person that you're caring for and dealing with. And it was so tough because I think it was all those years. where I often say to people as a daughter, it's like the years almost that I would imagine I'd become closer with my mum and that I would start, you know, going out with her or like going out in London or being a grown daughter. Totally. And it's that point I see a lot of my friends at

where they're so close with their mums now and that's that classic thing of my best friends, my mum and all that. And I think the fact that it started when I was around the age that I was almost on the cusp of getting that, that's a constant thing now where it was, was so tough watching. Yeah, people be, you know, they're like, oh, I've had a tough day at school. I'm going to go home and my mum's cooking me dinner. I mean, my mum are going out. And I was thinking, I'm going to go home and, you know, help make dinner and help clear up.

And my mum's probably going to have a go at me because she thinks I'm being awkward, but I'm just trying to help. And, you know, if we went to the theatre, it was that thing of trying to get her sat down. And then she'd get annoyed because it was just a total balancing act. I suppose it must give you, Amelia, such compassion and maturity. however, for others that are going through anything tough. Yeah, no, I definitely think so. I mean, at the moment, I'm at university and I have a lot of friends who are going through,

not similar things, but things in terms of grief or issues with parents or family or illness or whatever. And yeah, I think it's given me, our saying to Amy earlier, I was not a patient person before this. And it's really, like, that silver lining is, I feel I have such a awareness now of, like, people never in a million years would have looked at me and thought I was going through what I was. The campaign is called dementia doesn't care, which I think Amelia is illustrating so beautifully.

If any of our listeners are living with a family member with suspected or diagnosed young onset dementia, what would you say to the moment? I would say make sure that you get that support. There are support services out there and are charity support people diagnosed in Berkshire, Surrey Heath, North East Hampshire. and Farnham currently. So to have those support services, they are a lifeline. And I really think that if you suspect symptoms

in someone that you know or in yourself, it's so important to get that support because it's just so important. Amy Pagan from the charity Younger People with Dementia. And before her, we heard from Amelia. What an impressive young woman. Now, if you've been affected by dementia, you can find support via the BBC Action Line website.

Now we heard in the news last weekend that for the first time a woman had been appointed to coach a men's team in one of Europe's top five football leagues in what has been described as a landmark moment. Mary Louise Eater has been named interim head coach of Union Berlin in the German Bundesliga. That's the equivalent of the Premier League here. It's a sudden appointment until the end of the season and it follows a string of losses and dismissal of the previous coach. To find out more about Mary Louise Eater and also what the appointment means, Nula spoke to Rosie Webb, formerly one of the few female coaches of an English men's team, alongside Laura McAllister, the former international footballer and vice president of UEFA, the governing body of football in Europe.

Laura kicks us off with her reaction to the news. It is at first and I think we should celebrate all trailblazers and every moment where there's an element of the glass ceiling being broken, and particularly in football, because, as I've said several times, we lag behind the curve in terms of good governance and diversity in the management and running of our sport. But I think we must put it in perspective as well. This is an absolutely fantastic ex-female player.

A great, great coach has already been an assistant coach at Union Berlin and has now been given a big opportunity to keep the team up in the Bundesliga. But like every moment where a woman breaks, the glass ceiling. There's a glass cliff waiting below. And I think that's certainly the risk here in that it's unlikely Union Berlin will be relegated. I think, you know, they've had a very, very bad runner form. But I think they're 11 points clear.

But, you know, I don't think she would necessarily have been given this opportunity if the team was in the top three and pushing for a Champions League place, put it that way. And I'm just going to describe what the glass cliff is. We might be used to the glass ceiling and not breaking through the glass cliff. So a phenomenon where women and minority. leaders are appointed to top positions during times of crisis or downturn, making failure likely? Well, yes, but let's be optimistic. I'm a glass-off poor person. Whilst that is often the case in sport, and we've seen it here in Wales as well, with the Welsh Rugby

Union particularly, and it is often the case in all sports. There's also a big opportunity here. We're not talking about an inexperienced coach. We're talking about somebody who has a fantastic CV that would match any man's of her age and experience in any of the top five leagues. So this is a great opportunity to normalise women coaches in these important positions. But, you know, I have to say as well, we have to ask ourselves, is there any kind of realistic meritocracy in the appointment of big coaches in football? Because if there were, there would be more women already. There are plenty of men coaching in the women's game.

So it's not an argument to say women are not. suited to coach in the men's game, if men are suited to coaching the women's game. But they're not being promoted despite having more impressive CVs than men. And that's an issue for us to attempt to deal with in football. Rosie, how was it coaching men compared to coaching women? How do you see this appointment? Yeah, I think it's an interesting one. And I think that I always get drawn to the fact that their short-term appointments.

I think we've still got a long way to go before we actually see a female go into one of these top leagues and have an appointment that's longer than four to five games. I think we've got a long way to go until that happens. Yeah, because what can you do in that time, Rosie? I think it's a feeling that she'll probably be feeling that most females experience when they walk into a room full of males that they have to prove themselves and the spotlight is on them. But if you look at football now, probably five to six games is all you get to number one

win the team over, but get results and win fans over. So football's kind of got to that point now where managers are getting a shorter amount of time to get that success. And this is probably no different. However, it still resonates with me that they're short term appointments. And although we celebrate the success that, yes, we've got a female manager in one of the top leagues, again, it's a short term appointment. I'm waiting for one, I'm waiting for a club to be brave to make this a longer term appointment. And for you, what were the biggest challenges being in that male dominated environment when you were coaching men? I think, firstly, my own insecurities. I think when you walk into rooms like that, you start to have a lot of self-doubt, like, do I belong here?

Do I know enough? And if I'm going to get challenged, I'm definitely going to get challenged in the Mao environment. And that was probably my biggest battle before anything else was building my own confidence, my own resilience and believing that that I was there because I had a purpose and I was good enough to be in that role to begin with. It's interesting, isn't it? I'm just thinking of Rory McElroy winning the Masters and they said so much of it is down to that

psychological. What did they say? Something like a steel will on winning, which obviously he has worked on over the years, but it's interesting that so much comes down to how we think about things. We do know that male coaches receive an awful lot of abuse when they

are managing a men's team, is it more for a woman, do you think, as a female coach? I think it's a little bit more personal abuse. I think that, you know, I've been in the non-league for a very long time and there's abuse you get week in, week out, but then there's also that abuse that oversteps the line. And I experienced that quite a bit throughout the time that I was at Stanway Pegasus, and the club was very supportive.

The leagues were very supportive. And you know what? I wouldn't change those experiences because it's made me more resilient and it's made me a stronger coach than I've ever been. being in that environment. And why did you decide then to move to coaching a woman's team, which will be, as I mentioned, Charleston Athletic Under-21s? Yeah, I felt like I got to a point where I'd done all I could at that club.

And, you know, we'd reached a playoffs for the last three seasons. And, you know, I'd done the best with the budget that we had. And I didn't really feel like I was getting challenged as much anymore. And it became more of a routine every day going in, whereas I wanted to be in an environment that was going to challenge me and be uncomfortable again. Everybody can understand that. But was there, do you think,

you mentioned it's a small club, like a pathway for you to reach, let's talk about glass ceiling as opposed to Glasscliff, coaching men? Yeah, I felt like I'd reached a glass ceiling with the club that was at. I'd done the most that I could and I felt that I'd left the legacy and I still go back and do lots of work with them now.

I thought maybe I would have had a few more offers from Mal Clubs. in higher divisions that never came. It was always offers from female teams. And I guess that's where that's still that kind of society thinking in terms of men in those roles, especially in non-league. Let me come back to you, Laura. We talk about Marie-Louise Ita.

This happened in Germany. Do you think there's a difference in coaching culture there? Is there anything particular to Germany? Or is it just the way the cookie grumbled? No, no, not really. I think all five. the top leagues in Europe are pretty similar in all honesty. And I can relate to a lot of what Rosie says there. You know, I've experienced the same myself in terms of governance opportunities

and how we're treated in that space because we are, how can I put it, we're anomalies, basically. And every time we walk into a football space, we're one of very, very few women, in my case, in the governance and in Rosie's case in the coaching environment. So there's a big task for us ahead in football. But let's be positive here. You know, a lot of this, work is underway. You know, we've got requirements for all national teams and Champions League, women's champions league teams to have female coaches. So of course it's starting in the women's game because even there we don't have sufficient coaching resource. But what we've also got to do is change the culture of football more generally. And we only do that by being on the inside.

So whilst I sort of, you know, said this is a glass cliff potentially for Rita, it's also a huge opportunity. And she will seize it with both hands, I know, because if we normalise women, in those spaces, as we're trying to do in the governance of the sport. We encourage other women to put themselves forward. And in my experience, women are much, much better at these roles by and large than a lot of men who are already there. It's interesting thing because what I'm hearing is really a two-pronged approach. You've got the football culture, which is the part that the public sees. But then there's the private part, you know, which Rosie so eloquently described,

about the doubt that can be placed in your mind, even though obviously, incredibly capable and qualified for that role. How do you change that for women coaches coming in? Gosh, that's a huge question, isn't it? And I can relate to that again. You know, it's even when we have the experience that Rosie has in coaching and I have in football governance, when you're the only woman or one of a very tiny number of women,

then it's challenging. You know, the culture can be quite exclusionary and detached from what we're used to and not maybe operate by the same values that we expect. But I think we've all got to embrace the status as trailblazers because as we chip away at this culture, we open up big chasms where we can really enact some change in the future. And I think there is a will there now.

Certainly I can speak for UEFA. There is a real will to change the environment. For coaches, of course, but for players as well and clubs and for those of us involved in administering the sport. But let's be perfectly honest, you know, This is generational change. We're not going to get there overnight, even with the best will in the world. That was Laura McAllister, the former international footballer and vice president of UEFA, alongside coach Rosie Webb.

Still to come on the programme, comedian Susie McCabe, on how having a heart attack inspired her latest show. And remember that you can enjoy Women's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. On yesterday's program, we discussed a new report which examines potential breaches of the Online Safety Act. Children as young as 13 could be recommended sexually explicit content on social media platform X, according to the Centre for Countering Digital Hate, who say X's algorithm and what they describe as weak safeguards mean teenagers are also being exposed to possible direct sexual contact from adults. Imran Ahmed is the CEO from the Centre for Countering Digital Hate

and he joined me to explain. Well, we've seen a report recently by the Children's Commissioners saying that young people were more likely to encounter pornography on social media rather than on the open internet. And in particular, they said that X was a problem. So we wanted to quantify to what extent that was true. We set up accounts as teenagers, as two teenagers on that platform. We were able to do so without any problem.

We then started searching for words such as sex and boobs, and eight out of ten of the bits of content that were returned to our searches were explicit in nature, including pornography, including depictions of sexual acts themselves. We then tried to join communities. We wanted to see whether or not there are sort of things on ex-ex communities like Facebook groups, which you can join, which are dedicated in this instance to pornography, and we were able to join many of them. Now, look, what was interesting was that professional pornography actors and production studios,

we couldn't actually see their content because they were actually doing the right thing and putting 18 plus, so explicit content markers on their content. But what was really disturbing is that at the end of all of that work, we went back to our homepage and that the algorithm had learned. That's what we were interested in. So three out of ten of the bits of content served to us by the point. platform, even though we weren't following anyone, three out of ten was explicit in nature. So that was just because you'd entered in search terms that young children may enter,

and the algorithm was responding immediately to that. Correct. And in fact, some of that content was the most explicit we received. There was, I hesitate to say this this early in the morning, but there was even videos, including animals, that was served up to us in the algorithm. And to me, I mean, I'm dad of two young girls under the age of two, so I am both tired

and, you know, scared about these platforms. We then found that adults were with... So when you create an account as a child on X, by default, no one that you're not following can contact you, but the child themselves, can switch that off. It's a very simple option to switch off. And once we switched it off, we started receiving videos from other users, from those ex-communities that we joined, including in one instance a video of a man who was performing a sexual act upon himself.

So in every sense, this platform is not abiding by the prescriptions of the Online Safety Act, which say that platforms have to have robust age verification, that they need to ensure that kids aren't exposed to this kind of content. And in particular, designates pornography as a particular threat to young people, which it is. Now, I should say that we did contact X4 a response, but we haven't heard anything back from them yet. We did go to Offcom for a statement, and a spokesperson said that protecting children is a priority for offcom

Under the Online Safety Act, tech firms are accountable for ensuring sites, platforms and apps are safer for the children who use them. They must take a safety-first approach in how their services are designed and operated, including by combating grooming, tackling child sexual abuse material and using age checks to prevent kids from accessing pornography. Those companies that do not comply can expect to face enforcement action. we've launched investigations into more than 100 platforms, including X, and issued over a dozen fines for non-compliance. What do you make of that? I've seen the actions that have come out of offcom. And in the very few instances where it has taken action,

this has been the law. So the actual provisions relating to children came into force in July 2025. They've been dragged kick-in streaming. And I'm afraid that there has been a degree of cowardice, to be forced, and lack of leadership at Offcom in using the extraordinary powers that were awarded to them on a bipartisan basis. The Online Safety Act unusually had support from every party in the House when it was passed.

So they have the absolute confidence the British people are behind them, that Parliament is behind them. And yet they're still failing to act. There is an opportunity, I'm afraid, available here, which they don't seem to be taking. Because what I would have liked to have heard from them in response to you, was we've seen it, we've seen this report, we're digging into it, and we will take action, and X needs to change now, and that's not what they said, I'm afraid.

I mean, some people will wonder, because the Online Safety Act has been in place since 2023. So, you know, we have had this law for three years now. Clearly, it's not working. To what extent is this also due to weak or insufficiently robust legislation? No, no, that's not fair, because the act was, became. an act of parliament in October 2023. Believe me, this is what I've been working on for the last 10 years. In September 2021, I was the first witness for that act before the Joint Committee. But the provisions only come into force in July 2025.

And at that point, platforms are meant to be compliant. The law is extraordinary, too. I mean, it uses a clever, risk-based approach. It's sort of a duty-of-care model for platforms. it has extraordinary penalties available under it. I think it could be slightly more robust. I think it could integrate things like AI algorithms and advertising more than it does, but it is still a really robust bit of legislation.

The problem isn't the tool. The problem is the person using the tool. And I'm afraid that offcom itself has been too, it's been timid in the way that it uses its powers. There is this great opportunity, of course, for a revolution at the top of offcom, for new guidance, because this is about protecting our kids from content that they really shouldn't be exposed to at that age.

No one wants 13-year-olds seeing this sort of content. We don't have a response from the government or off-com on that. But, you know, just briefly, because obviously you've looked at exactly what the sort of content is available for young children online, what they can see. I mean, what are the long-term implications for teenagers' mental health when they are exposed to this content? That is not my particular area of expertise as a researcher. as a scientist. But what I can tell you is that what we are seeing, I spoke to Sir Mark Rowley a short while ago, a few months ago, and he was telling me that one of the things that really

disturbs him is that some of the increases in Vogue, in violence against women and girls, is actually coming from teenager on teenager violence. And whereas it was reducing in other age cohorts, it was increasing there. And his conclusion, and my conclusion would be, I think that this is because young people are being exposed to pornography in which violence is a significant feature, some of which is very, you know, some of the stuff that we were seeing was very twisted and is corrupting their view of something that should be

a beautiful part of a human being's life and their journey through it and of healthy relationships. And that's really disturbing because you combine that with all the manosphere stuff that's out there, the general misogyny on the internet. And this is a, the digital world is terrible for women. That was Imran Ahmed CEO from the Centre for Countering Digital Hate, speaking to me yesterday. And we're going to finish with some comedy.

Susie McCabe is a regular panellist on BBC shows like the News Quiz, just a minute and have I got news for you? But it was in 2024 whilst touring that she had a heart attack. She was only in her mid-40s at the time. and it made her take a long, hard look at her life. It also inspired her latest show, Best Behaviour. She joined Noola on Wednesday, and she began by telling her when she realised something was wrong.

So I was in Bristol. I was preparing for the Edinburgh Fringe, because, you know, when you're preparing for the Edinburgh Fringe, you come down to the south of England, because nothing will prepare you more than Edinburgh. Okay, we could explore that for a while, but continue. And I was in Bristol. My brother, who lives within an hour of Bristol,

had came down to see me, we'd done the gig, we were at breakfast the next morning. He had said, oh, you've got a damaged tyre. And all in all, I could feel this tightness in my chest, which I genuinely thought was heartburn. Now, a heart attack presents different than a woman. Yes, I've heard this. Yeah, and I was getting a kind of sharp pain in my neck,

but you know it's that thing where you're sleeping in different hotels every night. Late night, whatever. Yep. Didn't think anything of it. And then by the time we got to the car garage and I said to my brother, I think I'm having a heart attack to which he went, you've always been a bit of a high contract.

And then we subsequently phoned an ambulance and God bless the two middle-aged paramedics who came and literally done ECGs. And they saved my life. I mean, literally three hours later, I had an angioplasty in my heart. and I was sat in a bed. However, this is a very serious situation

that was taking place, but you did decide maybe there's some new material in this and before I get to that, I should say if anybody does have concerns, contact your GP, of course, for any of those questions you might have that we're raising at the moment.

What happened? You're in the ambulance, you have these two lovely paramedics and you decide to start trying out material on them. Not quite, not quite. But the paramedics had asked if my brother was my next to kin and I was like, do not let it make...

He didn't even listen to me when I said I was hard of pain. He thought it was heartburn because I've had fruit this morning. No, I remember texting my agent and I said, I don't think I'm going to make tonight's gig. And he went, why not? And I sent him the picture of the back of the ambulance. And I went, suspected heart attack, I said. And then I just wrote underneath it,

we're going to have some show next year, though. Well, you mentioned, fruit there and I'm just thinking of one of your stand-ups when you say growing up in Scotland and I grew up in Ireland. Fruit was either ornamental or in a tin. Yes. Yes, there was nothing nutritious about it. I like the syrup became in personally.

Either way, your teeth were always going to be destroyed. But no, so and I remember thinking we're going to have some show next year. And it is that thing, isn't it? You know, tragedy plus time gives us comedy. You know, it's a very simple equation and fortunately I'm still here to tell the story. I'm very glad to hear it. You have best behaviour, which we talked about,

in one sense, that's one show. Also, I love this, coming of rage. Yes. So more issues there that are serious, you know, living life and going through what we go through in our 40s or 50s. So six months after my heart attack, my marriage ended.

and then seven months after that, which would have been 11 months after the heart attack, I lost my dad. I'm so sorry. And then, you know, just the general kind of state of the world. And I'm 46, and I've got all of that good on where my internal body temperature would literally melt an ice cap. So I thought I am going to do a show about this.

And what you're talking about there, you know, especially with the marriage separation, I was talking and moving in with my best friend and her wife and you know living with a happy couple and you're going through heartbreak and then you know losing your dad and your dad dying's not the funny thing here but the minutia around about death

and you know I was brought up a Catholic and we weren't particularly militant about that but you know when the when the hour comes and all the bells and all the smells type funeral and then everything that goes with that and the arranging of it and did it help

Oh yeah, absolutely. That kind of, what would we call it, ritual? Yeah, yeah, that, I mean, that certainly helped and that kind of ritual that comes within that kind of period of death of the service and then the crematorium, but also the fact that you're dealing with a priest. You know, it's a middle-aged menopausal gay women and then having to deal with a priest. There's a clash there, and there was always going to be a clash. And, you know, you've got to look at the human.

we're in it, you've got to look at the humour of you organising one of the worst events that you could possibly ever organise, but to the priest it's just another day in another funeral, you know, and he's very not blasie about it, but it's very much his life. Routine.

Yeah, that's it, and I think you've got to find the ridiculousness in that. And do you know there's so much of that bit that my dad would have loved, you know, and then I go in and I talk about the baby boomers, and I talk about the Gen Z

and how maybe Gen Z need to lower their expectation of the world because they've grown up in a very child-centric world. So, into it, you're the second person, I'd say, in the past week that has said that, actually. Yeah, very child-centric. Say what you like about baby boomers. I feel like I need to stick up for Gen Z. Listen, no, and I do stick up for them, and I do initial actually stick up for them,

and I do point out to the baby boomers, you know, your grandchildren have paid more for their teeth than you did a three-bedroom semi-detached. And that's the reality of that. And when the baby boomers complain about the state of the world, I do kind of hold up and go, well, who elected these people, who bought the shares of these utilities,

who enjoyed the benefits of the house and market that your grandkids can no longer enjoy. So I do stick up for them, but say what you like about the baby boomers, but they kept my generation's feet well and truly on the ground. A couple of things that I want to let our listeners know You won the Billy Connolly Spirit of Glasgow Award in 2024. How amazing. Congratulations on that.

Do you know, that was genuinely one of the most surreal and amazing moments of my life. My name was announced by Elaine C. Smith, who is an absolute national treasure in Scotland. And the inaugural winner of that prize was the late Janie Godley. And Janie handed the award to me, which was a real moment. because Janie, you know, would always give me advice and such like. And then they spun me round to look at a screen. And there was Billy Conley with his wee dog on his lap. And he said my own joke back to me.

I wonder. And, you know, the joke was, I've very much got a face that works in three places in the world. Glasgow, Belfast and Benadorn. And he actually said, I laughed out loud when you said Benadorn. And at that moment, there was a thing where you thought, oh, it doesn't really matter what a viewer says or a critic says

because that man, the man who invented modern-day stand-up comedy, said he laughed at one imagine. I love his book so much. I read wind-swept and interesting. And it's something I aspire to to be wind-swept and interesting. I believe you celebrated with a tattoo of what? I did. So on the award is the Billy Conley self-portrait of himself,

which is kind of... A little sketch. Yeah, little sketch. And I got that out there. Just to remind me. Here's something. I just heard in the news bulletin this morning. A new tartan has been unveiled to mark the UK-Brazil season of culture

and Scotland are playing Brazil in the upcoming men's football world cup. What about that? A Brazilian tartan. Listen, if they want to give us their football players, they can have our tartan. That's what I say. If they want to give us their music, they can have our tartan. A hundred percent, no-year-old. self out Brazil. So today, I've only got a minute for this. We will have to have you back.

During an evidence session of the Women's and Equality's Committee at the House of Commons, MPs are going to hear from comedians about their experiences of being women in live comedy. The barriers they face, the gender pay gap, women's safety. What would you, what would be your elevator pitch in 30 seconds on what they need to know? It's everything that every woman has ever had to suffer in the workplace. But the problem is we are freelance and we don't have HR. Also, the snobbery within the arts, not acknowledging stand-up comedy as an art and seeing it as karaoke for the spoken word. Wow. So, but what makes you keep going? It is the greatest job in the world.

And as long as I can keep making people laugh and they can keep coming to me for a laugh, let's just keep doing this dance for as long as possible because the world needs a laugh right now. We sure do. That was Susie McCabe. show Best Behaviour Tours until the 23rd of May. That's it for today. On Monday, as the debate about the UK's military preparedness continues, Nula will be investigating what national service or conscription, were it ever to happen, might mean for women here in the UK.

Plus, she talks to composer and conductor Rebecca Dale, ahead of the release of her latest album, Studies in Disappearing. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.