Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Joanna Cherry and Inclusive Fashion

Episode Date: June 27, 2026

Joanna Cherry was elected as an MP in 2015, part of the SNP landslide when they took 56 out of 59 Scottish seats, just a year after the referendum on Scottish independence resulted in a No vote. Joanna went on to lose her seat in 2024 and has become a vocal critic of the party, and of Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership. She was also well-known for expressing gender-critical views and concerns at a time when the SNP was trying to deliver a gender self-ID law in Scotland. She joins presenter Nuala McGovern to talk about what she describes in her memoir as a "tumultuous decade" in Scottish politics.More than 500 mothers and babies came to harm or died as a result of inadequate care at Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust. That’s according to Donna Ockenden’s review into the maternity services there. Anita Rani speaks to mothers Sarah Hawkins and Sarah Andrews whose babies, Harriet and Wynter, both died from preventable errors.An inclusive fashion show happening in Manchester this weekend is hoping to shine a light on how difficult it can be for people with disabilities, including autism, to find clothes which suit their bodies and feel good. Ellie Brown, the founder of inclusive clothing brand ReCondition, is behind the fashion show and joins Nuala alongside Sam Stein, a YouTuber who makes content about living with autism, who shares how small changes can go a long way.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty McQuire

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He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award, He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo.

That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the program. Coming up, the biggest childbirth scandal in NHS history, the Ockenden Review into Nottingham Maternity Services, will hear reactions to the report from two of the mothers who lost their babies. And how might fashion be remodelled to suit everybody,

including those with disabilities or a neurodiversity? We'll learn about the beauty of inclusive fashion. Plus find out how to contribute to Women's Hour Listener Week. That's the week when all the socials, subjects are chosen by you. But first, Joanna Cherry was elected as an MP in 2015 as part of the Scottish National Party's landslide in that general election. This was just a year after the referendum on Scottish independence had resulted in a no vote. Joanna's memoir, keeping the dream alive, captures the disappointment and euphoria of that time for those supporting the nationalist cause.

By the time Joanna lost her Westminster seat in 2024, along the moment. with the majority of her SMP colleagues, she'd become a vocal critic of the party, including of the leadership of Nicholas Sturgeon. You might be most familiar with Joanna for her expression of gender critical views and concerns at a time when her party was trying to deliver gender self-identification in Scotland. And earlier this week, Peter Murrell, the former SMP Chief Executive, was sentenced to five years and three months in jail after he admitted to embezzling more than £400,000 from the party.

When Joanna Cherry joined us down the line from Edinburgh, Nula asked whether she had ever expected financial misconduct on this scale. Not on this scale. I didn't suspect criminality, but I, along with many other members of the party at that time, were concerned about what had happened to a fund that had been raised, not just from SNP members, but also from members of the public, to fund a second independence referendum. Over £600,000 had been raised

and as a result of two special appeals and that money was supposed to be ring-fenced but it had disappeared from the SNP accounts. That's back sort of 2019-2020. And I and a number of other party members got ourselves elected to the National Executive Committee with a huge mandate from the membership on a manifesto to improve the internal democracy of the party

and to find out what had happened to that money. And we were frustrated at every turn in trying to find out what had happened to the ring-fenced fund. And we weren't just frustrated. We were also demonised for asking legitimate questions,

the kind of questions that anybody on the National Executive Committee of a party ought to be asking. And one by one, we resigned from the NEC. And of course, some of your listeners may have seen a video of one of the meetings where we were asking questions.

where Nicola Sturgeon told us that there was nothing to worry about and I quote, we should be very careful about asking questions about the finances. And so it's not really a surprise to me that there has been a huge problem with the SNP's finances,

but it has been a surprise to me to see the scale and the length of time over which Peter Murrell embezzled money and the things that he spent it on. I mean, the thing is, Nula, the people who gave money to the party and the members of the public who gave money to the independence referendum fund

were largely working class people who believed in the cause of Scottish independence and gave what they could afford and what they could probably ill afford in difficult times believing in that and to find out that that money has been stolen by the chief executive of the party and spent on luxury items,

it's the most appalling betrayal of trust. Let me stay on this story. for a moment. There is a report in the telegraph this morning that they understand that police suspect Merle may have used a hundred thousand pound loan back to the party to throw people off the cent. You've expressed the view that Nicola Sturgeon showed

and I'm quoting, a remarkable lack of curiosity, unquote, over concerns regarding party finances while leader. She has said she was deceived, betrayed and lied to by her estranged husband. Why are you calling for an independent inquiry? Well, Nicola was trying to present herself as the wronged wife and nobody's criticising her for being the wife of Peter Murrell. The respect in which she's being criticised is because she was the leader of the party

and his boss at the material time and because of the way she ran the party in which questioning was shut down and any internal dissent was stamped on very, very firmly. And on the issue of the inquiry, I think what Peter Morrell has pled guilty to and indeed what he was charged with is probably the tip of the iceberg of wrongdoing with the SNP finances. And this issue of the loan that's, I haven't read the Telegraph report in full, but I'm aware of it, there's a lot more that needs to be investigated other than just what he has pled guilty to. And I do not have a response to what you are alleging there, it being the tip of the iceberg from Peter Murrell.

In relation to Nicholas Sturgeon, instead, Amor Anwar, who's Nicholas Sturgeon's, solicitor said she has no interest in anything that Joanna Cherry has to say. Well, I'm sorry that she feels that way, but I'm afraid to say that that sort of personal remark is very typical of Nicholas Sturgeon's behaviour when she's faced with criticism, in that she attacks the person doing the criticism rather than addressing the substance of the criticism. And my book addresses ideas and the substance of criticism rather than attacking

people on a personalized basis. Now, I've had to put up with quite a lot of a lot at the hands of Nicholas Sturgeon. I've been accused of being a transphobe and a bigot, which I find extremely offensive as somebody who's devoted their life to the cause of feminism and the cause of gay and lesbian rights. How dare she do that? But not only how dare she do that to me, how dare she do that to so many women who have been vindicated in their criticisms of her self-identification policies. And I'm talking about the women of four women, Scotland. I'm talking about the women and men of LGBT alliance.

Let's speak about that specifically, if that's okay. I do also want to add that we approach the SMP for a statement, but they haven't provided one yet. But there's a couple of issues that I want to get to in our time that we have with you. Let me move on to sex and gender, and I'll come back to independence. Scotland's gender recognition reform bill passed in Holyrood, but it was blocked by Westminster in 2023,

citing concerns around the Equality Act. On Friday, some may not be aware of this yet, that Judge Lady Ross ruled that prison guidance which allows some transgender prisoners to be held in jails matching their gender identity rather than their sex at birth is unlawful. She said sex segregation in prisons must be based on biological sex, based on a Supreme Court ruling on the definition of a woman in Equality's Law in April last year.

Campaign Group for Women in Scotland that you mentioned had challenged the Scottish government guidance through a judicial review saying only those born biologically female should be held in the women's estate. This whole debate, Joanna, has played out in the courts. Do you feel the argument in the law anyway has now been settled? Yes. And I feel that the concerns of women like me have been utterly vindicated.

When Nicholas Sturgeon sought to impose the policy of self-identification of sex on the SNP, because it was never properly discussed at any of our conferences. There were many people within the party and without who pointed out that self-identification of sex would have implications for women's dignity, privacy and safety, and for the rights of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals who are same-sex attracted and not same gender attracted. And we also pointed out that it would have implications

under the Equality Act and also implications for human rights. And we have been wholly vindicated by a series of court victories. You've mentioned the Supreme Court victory, won by four Women's Scott with the support of the lesbian interveners from LGBT Alliance, Scottish Lesbians and the Lesbian Project and also with the support of sex matters. And you've also mentioned the victories last week about Scottish Prison Service policy.

But before those victories, there were also the victories of Maya Forstatter and Alison Bailey who were discriminated against in their workplace for holding the views which I hold. So I think we have been vindicated but what I'd like to add to that, Nula, is for my pains in pointing out my concerns,

I was vilified and demonised within my own political party but also I faced very serious death threats on occasion I had to have a police escort at my constituency surgery in Edinburgh I always had to have a security guard at my surgeries thereafter I believed very strongly when I was an MP that I should meet members of the public

a member of the Scottish National Party threatened to rape me because of my views and he was convicted of making that threat against me and I had no support whatsoever from the party and nobody including Nicola Sturgeon has ever condemned that individual the implication being that it's okay to threaten to rape a gender-critical women. So the reason I'm telling you all of this is not a poor me story,

it's to point out that if a reasonably, well, privileged middle-class professional women like me who held the privileged position of a member of Parliament and King's Council had to face those sort of threats and abuse for speaking up for the rights of women and lesbians, how much more difficult would it be for an ordinary working-class women, who's concerned about male-bodied people in the changing room at her gym or men in her rape crisis support group. So something's gone very wrong in our society across the UK that people who've ultimately been proven to be right have been treated so appallingly by various institutions, including political parties like the SNP. Let me just ask you briefly before we move on to independence, because you talk about the law and their victories as you see them.

The social realities, though, do you feel that has been, what would I say, settled? Because even Judge Lady Ross, for example, in that story that we mentioned, she acknowledged that exceptional circumstances could arise. Yeah, I mean, for example, in the prison service, if there are men who identify as women prisoners, then they might need to be accommodated separately within the men's prison. But they shouldn't be put in with vulnerable women. But I think it's very important to take a step back here

and to acknowledge that thankfully in the United Kingdom we have very strong rights for minorities including same-sex attracted people and people who identify as transgender under the Equality Act. People who identify as transgender have exactly the same rights as everybody else not to be discriminated against harassed or victimised

and they have the same human rights as everybody else. what they don't have is the right to self-identify as the opposite sex. That right is not recognised in the law of the United Kingdom or indeed in international law. There's no right to self-identify as the opposite sex. So I think a moral panic by those who wanted self-ID has been created. And I have trans friends who feel that trans activism has damaged the quality of their lives. And that, of course, would be up for debate. Yeah. As we know, it's a contentious

controversial subject and there'd be many that disagree with the way that you frame it. Indeed, but I think it's really important for your listeners to understand that there are many women like me who have raised legitimate concerns and who have been vindicated in those concerns, because I think it will be empowering for your listeners to hear that. Now, I know you often, because I'm a listener to women's are, glad to hear it. And I know that you often give a platform to women and men who identify as women who hold the opposite view from me. And that's fine.

You know, I support free speech. But I think it's very important for your listeners to know that there are many women out there who hold the view that I hold. And there's nothing wrong in holding that view. And indeed they have the law on their side. And that, I think, Women's Hour. We hear from everybody. That's very much part of our structure.

and the meaning that we have with this program to hear from as many voices and as many different points of view and then our listener can decide. But we are having you on today for your memoir. You go into this in great detail, of course, in your book as well. One other thing that you do go into is independence. You've abandoned the SMP, but not the ideal of Scottish independence. This is a cause you've supported since you were a child.

But how realistic is it, given SMP-led governments in Hollywood since 2007, have not been able to deliver it? Well, the S&P-led government in Holyrood delivered an independence referendum in 2014, which we lost. But opinion polls still show that 50% of people in Scotland support independence. Support for the SNP has dropped. They've lost a lot of members, including recently me. And although they won the recent election, they won it on, I think it was 38% of the vote overall because the opposition was divided. a resounding mandate.

What my memoir seeks to do is to look at what's gone wrong so that we can learn from what's gone wrong and take that into the future and succeed. Now, there are many people in Scotland who support independence who are not members of the SNP. I believe the SNP has over the last 10 years

failed in its supposed leadership of the independence movement and what's needed to take the cause of independence forward is a cross-party civic movement. Joanna Cherry speaking to Nula there on Monday's program. Still to come on the program, how an exclusive fashion show in Manchester is showcasing adaptive clothing designed with and for disabled

and neurodivergent people and could benefit everyone. And remember, you can enjoy Women's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football.

And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Bounds. Now, more than 500 mothers.

and babies came to harm or died as a result of failings in care at Nottingham University Hospital's NHS Trust. That's the key finding of the largest review in NHS history conducted by former midwife Donna Ockenden, taking three and a half years and hearing from over two and a half thousand families. In response, the government announced that mothers and babies in hospital will now be protected under Martha's rule, which is the right to request an urgent independent response. review. This will be rolled out across all maternity and neonatal wards in England. On Thursday's program, I was joined in the Women's Hour studio by two of the bereaved mothers from Nottingham, and we began by hearing how Donna Ockenden announced her report. This review owes its very existence

to a group of families who refused to be silenced. They came together in harm and in grief united in their determination that what had happened to them should not happen to anyone else. I want to name them Harriet Hawkins and her parents Sarah and Jack. Winter Andrews and her parents Sarah and Gary. Quinn Parker and his parents. Emmys Dudenki and Ryan Parker. Cooper Needham and his parents, Natalie and David. Teddy and his mum, Kimberly Errington.

Caitlin Stringer and her parents, Emily and Daryl. And Felicity Bennion. These were the families who stood up with considerable courage. Without them, this review would not exist. Without them, Nottingham might still be enduring similar tragedies. The very moving way in which Donna Ockenden began her announcement yesterday, and I'm now joined by two of those mothers, Don Ockenden, named Sarah Hawkins and Sarah Andrews, whose babies Harriet and Winter died due to preventable errors. Welcome. And thank you for joining us this morning.

How are you? That clip nearly sent me crying already. I'm exhausted. Oh, you know, I feel like I've been so strong for 10 years. And then yesterday really was like a pivotal moment for us both, just to be heard and to be believed. And it sounds like two really easy, simple things, but our experience is that's just not what we had for so long.

No, for years, it was, we've done. just ignored and it felt like families should never have had to fight. We should have never had to fight to be listened to or to be heard. And yesterday it was emotional because it was like the recognition that, you know, we hadn't been making it up for years and actually we had suffered horrific calm. And the toll of the 10 years of fighting? What was that? You know, I say it very clearly.

You know, they killed my baby, they ruined my career because I worked at the hospital and they've ruined our lives. And I can't think of any other words to say than that. Sarah Hawkins and Sarah Andrews, mums to Harriet and Winter. Thank you. And you can hear their very moving interviews in full alongside analysis from the health editor of the Times, Eleanor Hayward, by searching for Thursday's edition of Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. And Nottingham University Hospital's NHS Trust responded to the publication of the Independent Review with the following statement. We apologise unreservedly to the women and families

who have suffered harm, loss, trauma or distress while receiving care in our services. We failed you. And on behalf of Nottingham University Hospital's Trust, we accept responsibility for our failings. And if you've been affected by what you've heard, you can find links to advice and support on the BBC Action Line website. Now, have you got something you'd like to debate on this program or a burning issue or a gripe you want to get off your chest? Well, listener week is the week when all the subjects are chosen by you.

Last year, you brought us everything from why we dream more vividly at certain times to the everyday frustration of constantly readjusting a seatbelt when you're large busted. No subject is too big or too small or too personal. If it's on your mind, we'd love to hear it. You can get in touch by texting Woman's Hour on 84844 or drop us a DM on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us via our website. Next, how often do you think about the size of your seam,

the design of your denim or the scratchiness of your skirt? For many of us, what we wear impacts how we feel, smart, creative, sexy, free. But clothes can also make us feel uncomfortable or restricted, and finding clothes that fit and feel good can be a challenge. This can be particularly true if you have sensory needs or on neurodivergent. There is an inclusive fashion show happening in Manchester this weekend, hoping to change that by showcasing clothes, which are inclusive. The woman behind this show is Ellie Brown, the founder of Inclusive fashion brand, Recondition. While earlier this week, joined Nula alongside Samantha Stein, who has a YouTube channel dedicated to discussing her

autism and neurodiversity. Nula began by asking Ellie about what led her to start an inclusive fashion brand. So about four years ago, I suffered a break to my ankle that basically opened up my eyes to accessibility. I think a lot of people who don't have a disability themselves or don't have someone immediately close to them may not realise how inaccessible, lots of different things in our life can be, not just close. And that was definitely myself. And really the injury just completely changed my perspective on life, whether it be how I look at venues when I go out and about in Manchester or whether it be how I look at the way that clothing is designed. So yeah, it was a big turning point for me.

So yeah, that was really how it started. There you go. The scales fall from your eyes. Now you are holding this fashion show at the weekend, 16 models, all of whom are disabled. neurodivergent or chronically ill. There's a specially constructed runway, I understand, wearing clothes, which you've designed to fit their needs. Some might say, what is inclusive fashion?

You did adapt denim, for example. Yes, that was our first product that we launched as a brand because it was one that consistently everyone was telling us is so inaccessible. That classic fastening that you see on most denim that you get on the high street with the metal button is difficult for most people, even if you've just had feeling a bit bloated that day or had a big meal the day before, it's quite hard to do up anyway, let alone

if you're thinking about having limb difference or dexterity issues. So the biggest thing for us was switching out that fastening, how can we make it much easier for people? And it's really simple fixes, like swapping the button for a popper or adding a pull, a nice big ring to the zipper, so it's easier to grip onto for people.

A lot of it's really not rocket science, but it does involve having conversations with people who have access needs when it comes to the clothes to help you understand. Sam, let me bring you in here. Tell me a little bit about you and how you found clothes or not found clothes, which help you feel good. Well, I was diagnosed as an adult with autism and also later ADHD. And this was in my early 30s. After spending basically a lifetime of feeling uncomfortable and sort of blaming. myself for it thinking I must be the problem because everyone else seems to be fine. And of course,

you know, in my youth, the UK has, I think the majority of children are wearing school uniforms. So I spent, you know, we were talking about children having behavioral problems in school. I wonder how much of that is also from the discomfort of being in itchy uniforms. You know, my, my uniforms were very itchy. And the lack of choice, I went to very traditional schools. I think that is something that is improving. But it's certainly not there yet. And some of my uniforms, you know, to consider when you're talking about children in schools, which is something that I don't really hear people saying is that they may be uncomfortable. For me, as an adult, you know, I'm very fortunate to be self-employed. I more or less get to where would I like. And I still have

problems. We have only a few companies which are really dictating what clothing is being made throughout the world. You know, I'm so glad skinny jeans are out of fashion, right? We had a good 10 years where we were all sort of uncomfortable. It was very hard to find something that was comfortable there. So there is an issue there with these companies telling us what's available and only providing those things for us. Yes, and in certain fabrics, for example. I had a listener earlier, Sam, that you may not have heard, who talked about how uncomfortable bras are and trying to find them for her with her specific needs. And I understand you have a YouTube channel, you make content about, for example, going shopping as a special kind of hell. But I believe that

you've also talked about how uncomfortable bras can be or sometimes how brands are not thinking about that. I mean, you know, I'm 40 years old. It's been a lifetime journey to find something comfortable and I'd love to be able to say as, you know, an expert content creator that I found the perfect solution to this. Unfortunately, I haven't. And I think also we have to talk about the fact that bras are so expensive these days. And you can't just go into a shop and try things on, really, a lot of us relying on online ordering, which is inaccessible in kind of a different way. I mean, the bra I'm wearing, I think costs 80 euros. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that. It's extremely comfortable. And I thought to myself, finally, I will never have to think about this

ever again in my life. And of course, it wears out after three months. And I think, well, you talk about the sensory issues as well. Can you describe that a little bit? I am a person that tags really bother me and I kind of have a special little unpicker to. do that with my clothing. But you also think about that and think about colour. Bring us into your world. Well, the thing is, I think a large majority of autistic people also have a sensory processing disorder. They do go hand in hand, although not everyone does. I think the little unpicker for your clothes tags is really a life hack for us. If you don't know, if you're trying to get them out and scissors, get one of these little things. I do not know what they're called. But it's also a balance

because it's not also about feeling comfortable for a lot of people who are working, especially having to maintain a kind of professional level of respectability. It is important how you present yourself and how you'll be perceived. So you can say masking is often seen as a bad thing. Masking can also be a good thing for autistic people

to maintain employment and being able to find appropriate clothes that you feel comfortable in and that represent yourself is a big challenge. And I mean, even today, I thought about what I was, going to wear today. I am wearing a synthetic top and I was thinking, is this going against my values when I talk about how I love to wear natural fibers? But it's the reality that I can sometimes

I have to compromise between what I want to look like and especially in a professional setting and what is actually comfortable. I'm going to take this off straight away when we get off air, right? Because I see you on a video and I do see very bright colors actually kind of mirrored in your background as well. So I can see that you are probably attracted to kind of peaches or orange is yellow, green. Yeah, I mean, I do have quite a peachy wash in this room. But I am more of a sensory seeker than many autistic people. And I think this is something that's really important to say is that there is no one type of

clothing for autistic people. Yes. Some of us will be sensory seekers and will love to have texture and color and prints. Some people will want to go like the Steve Jobs roof, you know, black tartar necks. And I have to leave it there, but so interesting to speak to you. And I do want to let people know a seam ripper or a. Quick unpick is that little tool that Sam and I like to use so much. Newler there speaking to Sam Stein and Ellie Brown,

whose inclusive fashion show at Manchester's Aviva Studios takes place tonight. Well, that's it from me on Monday's program for Radio 4's Once Upon a Time season, we'll be delving into feminist fairy tales with the award-winning author Kirstie Logan and the mythologist and psychologist Dr Sharon Blackie. They'll tell us why they believe women need fairy tales now more than ever and crucially why we should rewrite them for ourselves. Do join Noola on Monday at 10am and enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. So Alice Lockstone, I'm here for the history. Well, Ben Henderson, I like the formality. And that's perfect because we have a lot of history to share. Why did tea become such a British obsession? How did English turn into the language we speak today? And yes, why do we? women's clothes still not have pockets. Well, in our new podcast, Here for the History, we're

investigating how stories from the past shape everyday life today. Basically, the things we've all noticed but never stopped to question. Listen on BBC Sounds or watch on YouTube. Just search for Here for the History. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. to do 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000.

So is he a philanthropist to reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.