Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Jodie Comer, Vicky McClure, Jameela Jamil

Episode Date: January 20, 2024

The Killing Eve star Jodie Comer joins us to discuss her latest film, The End We Start From. The protagonist is a new mum, who has to navigate a flooded Britain with her baby. Jodie also reflects on the powerful response to her play Prima Facie, and the impact of fame on her life.According to a new report by the charity Brainkind, up to one in two survivors of domestic abuse in the UK may be living with an undiagnosed brain injury. We speak to Steffy Bechelet from Brainkind and Dr Annemarie Burns, a consultant clinical neuro-psychologist.Vicky McClure joins us to discuss her new role as explosives expert Lana Washington in a new series of Trigger Point. How often do you feel weary and depleted? The burnout coach and historian Anna Schaffner discusses her book, Exhausted: An A-Z for the Weary.They were known as Israel’s “eyes on the border.” These were female Israeli border soldiers - who raised concerns about suspicious Hamas activity on the Gaza border in the run up to the October 7 attack - but those concerns went unheard by higher ranking officers. Hamas killed at least 1,200 people in that attack and took about 240 hostages, around 130 of whom are still being held. Since then, nearly 25,000 civilians have been killed in the Israeli bombardment that followed, according to the Hamas-run health ministry. We speak to the BBC’s Alice Cuddy and the author Mary Ann Sieghart.The actor and activist Jameela Jamil has made headlines over the years for her provocative, sometimes sweary social media posts, often calling out celebrity culture for promoting unrealistic ideals. She reflects on cancel culture and her resolution to post online with more 'grace and empathy'.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Erin Riley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani, and have we got a line-up for you today. Vicky McClure, the star of Line of Duty, shares her experience of playing an explosives expert in the new series of Trigger Point. The actor and activist Jamila Jamil on why she's changed the way she communicates online. Sex used to sell in our generation,

and now, you you know in our youth and now sex doesn't really sell anymore because it's so oversaturated now outrage sells and I think I unknowingly contributed to that culture. And we hear about a new report which says that up to one in two survivors of domestic abuse in the UK may be living with an undiagnosed brain injury. But first, she became a household name playing the glorious baddie Villanelle in BBC drama Killing Eve and has gone on to win multiple awards for her work on screen and stage. I am of course talking about the one and only Jodie Comer, who's now starring in a new film, The End We Start From. Think 28 Days Later meets The Day After Tomorrow tomorrow but with a twist

the protagonist is a new mother simply called woman who has to navigate a flooded britain with her baby well emma spoke to jodie earlier this week and began by asking her what it was like working with babies on this film it's funny whenever you you know whenever i would tell someone that i was working with a baby in every scene of this film, they would be like, you know, they kind of know the difficulties that that presents itself with. For instance, like time. I think we had 15 babies in total on set and they have a break every 20 minutes. Even greater demands than most. Yeah.

Well, now that's in my now that's in my rider guys i'm like 20 minutes i'm gonna take a break i can have a cup of tea um but that must have been you're not yet a mother i don't know if you've been around a lot of children but it must have been something to to be getting to grips with that yeah a lot of my younger cousins have grown up now so i'm not around babies all that often i was very fortunate that one of my best friends had a baby just before I started, which was amazing to be able just to witness kind of the beauty of her evolution and be able to ask her the real kind of nitty gritty questions

of like, what is this honestly like? Or what does this honestly feel like? You know, which was brilliant. And then of course, you know, the production provided so many resources, whether it was, you know, which was brilliant. And then, of course, you know, the production provided so many resources, whether it was, you know, speaking to midwives and spent time with the babies before we got to set. And I read that the director was inspired to direct her first feature film

after giving birth during the pandemic, which, you know, of course the pandemic isn't like the whole world going underwater and as physical in some of the ways that this film comes across. But it is a reality that a lot of women have gone through recently. Yeah. And I think my understanding, Mahalia Bello, my director, she had read the book prior to the pandemic and then was actually sent Alice Birch's script during the pandemic when she'd had her baby and suddenly had this,

she'd always loved the book, but suddenly had this new found connection to it. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of people who will relate to a woman. I think that's another reason why I was drawn to it. She feels to me like an everyday hero, you know, she's someone who I recognize myself within. I see people who I know in her, you know, and I think that allows you to just resonate in a different way. You know, she's dealing with it on a very human level.

It'll be interesting if you, should you ever go on to have your own family, how you'll look back on this and whether, I don't know if it's put you off, is it sold motherhood to you? Has it made you think about it differently? It's made me think about it differently, absolutely. I think, you know, I've said this before, but I think before going into this, I didn't really feel like I had a maternal instinct. You know, it wasn't like a part of myself that I felt like I'd accessed. And then going into this and just, I don't know, just learning and finding, becoming more comfortable. And I just feel like I've stepped into a new version of myself, you know, it was beautiful. And just to have like a newfound appreciation of like how selfless it is and what it demands of you. And also what really struck me actually is, you know, the complex relationship that a lot of women then have with their own bodies, you know,

and they feel unrecognizable to themselves or unrecognizable to their partner. And like just it's I just have so much respect for women. The thing I was going to say from your career looking through, I mentioned, obviously, Villanelle. Do you carry her around with you as a character? No, no. She doesn't stay. She's in the box.

She's in the box. Because you seem to choose, you've said yourself, characters and roles that challenge you, mean something to you. You've talked about some of the research that you've done and I was fortunate enough to see you on stage in prima facie to remind people you went to the west end with this your first time then broadway took it by storm winning amazing awards uh that one woman played by by Susie Miller who we had on the program and it was about a criminal defence barrister working in

rape cases who was then sexually assaulted herself. How much of that do you carry with you when you do a role like that? Yeah I think theatre is very different is what I learned. I feel like that took a little bit longer to shake off, purely just because it's a very emotional piece, which you're, you know, sometimes you're performing twice a day for an hour and 40 minutes, and you're going from the start of the story to the very end, so you're, like, living through that entire thing every day. And it's a one-woman show.

And it's a one-woman show. So I just think, energetically, it can kind of zap you. Have you felt fear in your life as a woman? Because a lot of women have written to you about their situations. But what has it been like for you? I mean, I feel incredibly privileged that this play had the effect that it did. Whether that be someone feeling like they're able to now tell a family member or a friend or seek help you know I felt very um honored that people

wrote to me and shared those experiences because they're incredibly personal you know and and some people you know can't even tell the ones who they're closest to. So to just experience and see firsthand how the play had helped people was remarkable. Well, it's so clever because the main character has to see everything from the other point of view and suddenly go through what she... I mean, I always think there must be a show in that that you go and be the thing that you work as,

you know, doctors who then give... who, I don't know, you know, deliver babies. Then when they have their own baby, they have a different experience, you know, or a firefighter. God forbid their house is then on fire. When you experience your own world back at you, you can then hopefully be a lot better at it. Yeah. Of course, you never think you're going to be in that position. You know what I mean? It's like she never thought she would be in that position. So it's not something I imagine it was something that passed her mind, but not something that she gave too much attention to because it's like, well, this is the black and white of the law.

These are the rules. This is where I stand. And then, of course, that is completely turned on its head. And then you're faced with how you feel you've behaved or, you know, how you've made people feel. It's something, of course, that we talked about with Women's Safety, especially there was something in the air because of protests and we talked about the pandemic, but, you know, the raping, abducting, the killing of Sarah Everard. There had been a moment that it was then seemingly after, I think, for women in particular, which made that, and when I was there as well, electric in theatre.

Well, it's alarming, you know. It's like we were in the rehearsal room, I can't remember, four or five weeks before, you know, and a lot of the statistic in the UK is that one in three women have experienced sexual assault. You know, and we're running through the play and I'm saying this every day and then you look around the rehearsal room

and, you know, there's maybe seven women in that room and then you get into a theater and there's 900 people. And then you're faced again with that number. That is, they're not just numbers, they're people. You know what I mean? It's just like you realize how big a problem it is. And, you know, I spent a lot of time and was able to go to the Old Bailey before I started and sit in on a couple of cases. They weren't sexual assault trials, but, yeah, it's just like something has to...

I've explored sexual assault in a couple of projects and it always feels like when I do, it's, you know, often what I get is, oh, God, it's just so timely and it's just like I just would love nothing more than to get to a point where that isn't the case, you know? What's the next thing for you do you think challenging? Is there a sort of role that you've got your eye on? Is there a role I've got an eye on?

I'd love to do a musical. I really want to get into something where I have to maybe like train, you know, whether that's dancing or singing or something like I've got to immerse myself in. Do you like being famous? Like what does famous. What's it like? I hate that.

I mean, I understand that that is what, what people would say about me. I don't see myself as that because I'm, I live such a, my life is very normal. Do you know what I mean I'm not I don't really gallivant around and those types of circles um I think um uh accepting that your anonymity is something that you know slowly gets kind of stripped as can sometimes be tricky but um you know when you want to walk the shop without a bra

on and then you know you get you get pat with no bra on and then that happened it has and i was like but then i was like well i don't did you have a seat did you have a see-through top on no i didn't i didn't but i'm like i don't want to change the way i want to live you know sometimes you want to go out without a bra i don't have that option being of the heavier mammary load. But if I could go to the shop without, I mean, the first thing I do, Jodie,

when I get an identity, is to take the bra off. Yeah. Are you the same? Yeah. Are you even up the stairs by that point? No.

It's off. Door off. The brilliant Jodie Comer talking to Emma there and her new film, The End We Start From, is out in cinemas now. Now, up to one in two survivors of domestic abuse in the UK

may be living with an undiagnosed brain injury. That's according to a new report, Too Many to Count, published on Tuesday by the charity Brainkind and shared exclusively with Woman's Hour. 55% of survivors they spoke to screened positive on the Brain Injury Screening Index, suggesting history indicative of a brain injury. That's compared with one in eight of the general population. To discuss the research and findings, Emma spoke to Steffi Bechelet, Brain Kind's domestic abuse and brain injury researcher,

and Dr Anne-Marie Burns who's a consultant clinical neuropsychologist and I should warn you that this conversation includes descriptions of domestic abuse. She began by asking Steffi what they found out in the report. So the main findings of our report as you've just said are that one in two people who've experienced domestic abuse may be living with a brain injury and this has come about through a number of different ways. But our research found that over 80% of people that we spoke to had experienced at least one serious blow to the head. So thinking about injuries to the head, neck or face in their lifetime. And also three quarters of the people that we spoke to had also been held in a way that they couldn't breathe. And both of both of these are potential

mechanisms for brain injury. So this is really saying to us that a lot of the experiences that domestic abuse survivors are having could lead to brain injuries, which is why this really needs to be explored further. And in terms of how you recruited the participants, who were the women that you heard from? So the women that we worked with and we spoke to came from a range of different host sites across England and Wales. So domestic abuse refuges, but also community based infraservices. And it was really important for us that people were recruited in a way that they were kept safe. Because we realised that talking about this can be deeply traumatic for people. And we wanted to make sure that people were safe in the process.

Anne-Marie, and in terms of there's been some research on this before, but how does this differ? What do we learn now? So predominantly the research that's happened before hasn't been in England and Wales. It's been in North America, some in Australia. And those studies have predominantly been in emergency departments or in orthopaedic departments. And our research is with a community-based sample, women who are seeking support for domestic abuse. Okay and I think it's important at this point to hear from one of the participants of your study which is called Too Many to Count calling her Faith. She described her experience and I should say her words are spoken by an actor. I was very keen to take part as I was diagnosed with a brain injury 10 years ago. I never fully understood why I had the

brain injury, although I did think it was down to the trauma I'd gone through as a victim of domestic abuse and sexual violence for an exceptionally large part of my life. I was late having the diagnosis just before the age of 40. Health professionals even told me this was a peculiar age. Unfortunately, my lived experience of domestic abuse and sexual violence is vast and spread over many years. This includes domestic abuse of every nature, sexual abuse, sexual violence, coercive control, physical violence, gaslighting, also including post-separation abuse which is not talked about enough. Can I add my main reason for not being able to talk live on air today as I'm still going through post-separation abuse which is a dangerous act that perpetrators

use for years after separation. It's an important part of Faith's story, as we're calling her, and to protect her identity. To bring it back to the brain injury side of things, because there may be those who are listening who are trying to understand whether this has affected them. Anne-Marie, what are the symptoms? So I think the first thing, it's important to say that not every head injury results in a brain injury. but if you have experienced a serious blow to the head with a loss of consciousness

or you've been held for a prolonged period in a way that you felt you couldn't breathe and maybe weeks or even months later you're experiencing difficulties with your memory or the speed at which you're able to process information or some people report that they have behavioural or emotional difficulties then that might be the time to speak to your domestic abuse support worker or even visit your GP to discuss those symptoms a bit further. Let's have a listen to Faith as we're calling her describe her symptoms and diagnosis again her words are spoken by an actor. I was diagnosed with my brain injury of epilepsy exactly 10 years ago this year. Firstly, I would suffer with blackouts with no

warning. I was referred to a cardiologist to have a loop recorder fitted into my chest cavity to record my heart symptoms as they thought I had a heart problem. The findings revealed that my heart was completely fine. I then went on to continue having blackouts with seizures. Then things changed direction. I paid privately to see a neurologist. I went through years of investigations with far too many admissions to hospital with multiple EEGs to find the root cause of my seizures.

In 2014, I was given a diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy. My life changed dramatically. I was prescribed lots of medication with horrendous side effects. I gave up work, stopped driving and was isolated at home for 18 months. This is unbelievably difficult to say, but looking back, my life was over. The brain injury was diagnosed as epilepsy. It revealed that my left hippocampus was severely distorted in comparison to the right hippocampus, although we know the brain is not symmetrical. There was evidence that there were abnormalities

within the brain, more so to the hippocampus. There are reasons why the hippocampus can be smaller and distorted in shape and size. I am yet to find out the cause of this. I remember asking my neurologist, could this be the cause of any domestic abuse or sexual violence I've experienced in my life? They were not forthcoming in this question, unfortunately. So I still have many unanswered questions. A very difficult place to be and also the description there of getting a diagnosis and then the treatment. How difficult can it be to get a diagnosis?

So I think one of the complexities around diagnosis of brain injury is that the symptoms very much overlap with other physical and mental health conditions. So for example women might report that they're very fatigued or that they struggle to concentrate or organise themselves. And those are also symptoms that we see with post-traumatic stress. So we know that from all the professionals that we spoke to that many people don't really consider brain injury in the context of domestic abuse. So when women are presenting to their GP or other health professionals, they're reporting these symptoms and brain injury isn't really being considered and so sometimes their symptoms might be being attributed to other things like mental health problems so I think that's one of the issues. The other difficulty is that Steffi alluded to this earlier is that if you have had a serious blow to the head you've had

maybe a brief loss of consciousness but you recover you, you get on with your day to day life. If say weeks or months later, you're then experiencing symptoms, like memory difficulties, for example, you don't necessarily link it back to that injury. And so then when you go to your health professional, it's hard to give a clear account. So that's why at BrainKind, we're really clear that we need to raise awareness of brain injury in this context. And do you think just having heard about the symptoms then or rather the side effects of the medication, you know, that could also this morning, you know, put people off? Not all treatments for brain injury require medication. So there might be psychological therapies or rehabilitation therapies that might be helpful. It's not always medication that's required. Let's just have a listen about Faith's experience of getting medical treatment.

It's almost impossible to seek medical checks when going through abuse of any kind, as the perpetrator will control everything that is happening to you. Even going to the GP, if you get the chance, they will speak for you. In my case, they did. I was told by my perpetrator I was making things up in my head and that I was completely fine. On occasions, my visits were to the hospital. Not once was I asked what was going on in my marriage. This was over a period of 20 years where I would end up in A&E departments with an array of injuries.

There were too many missed opportunities. That's something that I know, Stephanie, you want to say something about, don't you, in the sense of how hard it can be to seek help? Absolutely. And I know for lots of people who are listening that might be experiencing domestic abuse, the idea of going to a medical professional doesn't feel like the safest option right now and we fully recognize that and I think what's important is that it's not going to be a one-size-fits-all not everyone is going to be ready right now to have those conversations when they need to but it's just about empowering people to have that information to know that if these things are happening this is something that they can look out for and when they feel ready to be able to speak to a professional,

whoever that is, whether that's a GP, domestic abuse support worker, an IDVA, that they know to mention the head injuries and being held in a way that they can't breathe. I mean, it's a small study, we should say, 60 women in it. And in terms of when people say how representative of that, we talked about how we could be looking at a situation now with the idea of up

up to one in two survivors may be living with an undiagnosed brain injury but what would you say to that about representation we fully acknowledge it's a small sample but these people had a very broad range of experiences from very different backgrounds ages ranged from 18 to 72 people were at very different stages of their domestic abuse journey but what we found is that our results actually match a lot of international studies done with similar sample sizes so what we're seeing is a really universal experience in terms of domestic abuse yes it's a small sample and we fully acknowledge that there needs to be more research but we're really proud that brain kind of taken this step and acknowledge that

that domestic abuse needs to be looked at in the context of brain injury that was stephy bechelet and dr anne-marie burns and earlier you heard from a survivor of domestic abuse we're calling faith and if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in the interview there are links to support organizations on our website now vicky m McClure is back on our screens as explosives expert Lana Washington in a new series of Trigger Points. Well known for her standout roles in Line of Duty and This Is England,

Vicky also set up the Our Dementia Choir and recently received an MBE for services to drama and charity. I was lucky enough to speak to Vicky yesterday and began by asking her how it felt to receive that MBE. You know, it's lovely that it was for drama and charity. I was lucky enough to speak to Vicky yesterday and began by asking her how it felt to receive that MBE. You know it's lovely that it was for drama and charity but for me it was for charity, it was for our dementia choir and it was for everybody living with dementia. It was a moment to be able to say you know maybe I can do a little bit more with something like that behind me and

the day was lovely. You know my mum dad and johnny was there and it was just it was surreal i mean i'm not gonna lie it was everywhere you looked you were just sort of flabbergasted at being in a castle and at windsor and you know when we got there my mum said to somebody do you know who it is you know who's giving them out and they went it's the king and she went yes you know um so it was it was really special yeah and you set up the choir because in memory of your late grandmother and her experience of dementia so i mean do you think what i know i wonder what she'd think really i do wonder um i know she'd be immensely proud of course um her dementia was so when i look back it was it was so cruel. You know, she lost her speech.

All she did was scream towards the end. And it was so distressing for my mom and my uncle to take that on. And it was so confusing. We knew nothing. You know, at that time, it just, it felt like it was this brand new illness that never really sort of got into. And so the fact that now we are where we are and you know the dementia choir and everybody involved in that but you didn't have to do that you didn't have to do that you didn't have to step outside your life as a as an actor doing what you do to then go I need to shine a

light on this what why do you know what honestly it's it's the best thing I'm involved in. Like, I love my job. I'm very, very lucky. But nothing comes close to what I get from working with people that are doing things to help other people. And that might sound a little bit, you know, good. I can't think of the word, do-gooder. But, you know, if anybody volunteers or has to help somebody and, you know, you do get something back

from that and so I get that in bucket loads because I see so much joy I see so much difference in people's lives not just those living with dementia with their family members their carers like last week we had the first rehearsal back and not only did we sing they had somebody from a bank there to talk about finances. They had somebody there talking about lasting of attorney. You know, there was all these different, there's a lot more going on than just the music. It's like we want to make a massive difference.

And this year when I can finally sort of like let the cat out of the bag of what our plans are, I'm amazed. I'm like, they floor me every day. I'm like, what? We're doing what? So you're one of those lucky people who has a passion and a purpose. Yeah, I am. I'm like, they floor me every day. I'm like, what? We're doing what? So you're one of those lucky people who has a passion and a purpose. Yeah, I am. I'm lucky for that. I really, I do have a massive, massive passion for what we do. And I think we all need purpose. You know, you've got to have something to get up out of bed in the morning. So you've got all of that going on and we can't wait to hear what your exciting plans are for this year. I'll be back. I'll come and tell you on Women's Day.

Yes, please. Well, you know, yeah, it's because there is the tea, isn't it? It's perfect. It's gone. It was great. Trigger point, back series two. Yeah. Tell us about the character, Lana Washington, or Wash. Yeah, Wash. Bless her. I mean, like if you watched series one, you know, she lost a lot of people. There was an awful lot of trauma that she went through.

So coming back into series two, there was always going to be this very fractious sort of character that we were coming back to. And I was really interested into how we delve into that. And as we go through the series, I hope we've done it justice just to make sure that that is very evident, that that's been well documented through the character. but in in and amongst it it's entertaining you know it's like it's a very fast-paced high octane show we've got some brilliant new actors in it we've got great

remaining cast in it should we have a clip let's have a listen to you doing what you do what's he doing ah sit rep what's what's going on we've got a timer our actions must have set it off how long what you do. I'm replacing the disruptor. Watch, get away from there! Come, get down! Move! Get away! Ten seconds left! Danny, take the shot! Take the shot!

Fire it! Three, two, one! Will he get it though? I'm sweating just listening to the clip. There's a lot of tension. And that's also because you are leading a very tight-knit team and it's all about trust and communication. Yeah. You're called Expos as well. Yeah, they're called Expos.

Lots of trust, lots of communication, lots of focus and bravery. I mean, you know, we've met Real Expos, obviously, to get as much information as we can throughout the two series that we've done. And I'm just amazed that that's what people get up and do, you know, and knowing that it could go one of many ways. You never really know what you're walking towards. And so it was an amazing concept that came to me

when I was just like, well, I've never even heard of it. You know, I wasn't really aware of like, you know, you'll see the bomb disposal vans maybe here and there. But it's not something that thankfully is a common occurrence. And so I think it was just interesting to go on to a completely different topic what's um as well as all the tension and the gripping drama what's really interesting is watching a woman leading a male team and how that doesn't always go so smoothly and you show us you know the reality of what that might mean for your character yeah and just how few female expos there are um you know that is evident and that is um still the case now really especially within the met not so much much you know out on the field but yeah it's a shocking you know the sort of balance is completely imbalanced

and you know there's people that have told me things where they've said when you put the big suit on the big sort of protective gear that weighs as much as I do I mean it's it's insanely heavy one of the one of the guys that is a real expo he said that one of the women was with him protective gear that weighs as much as I do. I mean, it's insanely heavy. One of the guys at Isabel Expo, he said that one of the women was with him and they both had to wear this whilst they were training and she outdid him. And I was like, of course she did. Why wouldn't she?

And it's a surprise because... You're an executive producer on the show as well, so how much creative input do you have and how important is it to have that um well I you know I think because I've worked with Jed and and Jimmy and it was it was very easy processing so much as we've got a really nice working relationship anyway but I just love being a part of it all I've always I've always enjoyed the call sheet which is the most boring piece of documentation it lands in your inbox every day but I I scour everything I want to know when everyone's in what time everyone's doing everything and um you know and not only that like obviously the casting and the script is key and just being a part of that and you know

giving my thoughts and opinions on things um which were well respected and I was you know it was great to be able to be a part of it before we even got going and then even on the day if things need changing which they often do because that's that's the way of world the way of the world it's a creative space um it just means that you feel like you've got a place to do that yeah of course you're respected I've been reading what people have been saying about you before this interview, and I think it's Shane Meadows just saying that you're one of the most authentic people he's ever come across, and when you act,

it's just real, instant. Well, Shane's, you know, the reason for that, like, genuinely, the TV workshop and Shane Meadows are the reason I am where I am. So we should just explain that your first ever break was in his film, The Room for Romeo Brass. Amazing film by the way absolutely loved it watched it when it years ago and and that was set in Nottingham and yeah you you wanted to be an actor but you got into Italia Conti but you couldn't go because you couldn't afford it.

Yeah no it was I think I was about 14 I was at the TV workshop at the time but I was dancing as well I was like only in my local dance school um but I was all right you know I was doing okay and I auditioned and I got in I mean it's a you know huge huge so I was like really proud of that shocked um and you know what in hindsight I'm really glad that it went the way it did and I always say to young actors or you know but in performance it's like it would it will find its way for you and it might seem disappointing at the time but I do remember not feeling downbeat about it you know there was all this kind of potential of me having to live with another family in London at 14 years old and I wasn't so keen on that um but I was just leaving

it to whatever happened you know if we did get the money then I'd have probably given it a go because it did seem quite appealing because there wasn't I loved school and my clique just so you know is still my clique today yeah um my my girls are still you know my closest girls but education and academia and stuff like that just wasn't my forte but I had an amazing school experience but with Italia Conte it was basically just sing, dance, act all day. I was like, oh, that's better than science and maths and things that I really struggle with. So it felt like it could have been the perfect thing for me. And then in hindsight, it just wasn't.

And Shane, do you think we'd be sitting here having this chat if Shane Meadows hadn't come? No. Found you. Definitely not. I don't. I really don't because you know Shane is so unique the way Shane works is so unique the way in which the TV workshop in Nottingham which is still going now and still run in very much the same vein which is

improvisation and finding the truth and you know freedom of you know being able to explore different and local kids and local kids and it doesn't cost the earth you know it cost able to explore different... And local kids. And local kids. And it doesn't cost the earth. You know, it cost nothing when I went. There was no money barrier. It wasn't about you can afford to do this. It was you have shown that you've got, you know, a fair amount of talent to see if we can build on that. And so you were surrounded by rich, poor and indifferent.

And that's what was so unique about it and still is. And Shane, obviously, saw that, tapped into it. And you were in the room for Romeo Bass. If you haven't seen it, dig it out, watch it this weekend. I've got a really high voice in it, just so you know. You're very young. But then you didn't get any more work, so you just went back and worked in retail,

which I love that because why wouldn't you? Well, I couldn't do anything else. You you know it was seriously you've got to work and that could be the case any I'm always you know people probably go shut up don't say things like that but it's true like I think it'd be arrogant of me to think that this is it now I'm sorted for life I feel comfortable and I feel like I'm in a good place for sure. Do you still feel it could all be over tomorrow? I think it's wise to always have a backup plan. What's your backup plan? I don't know, back to H. Samuels maybe, is it still going? I don't know, I think it's just wise to always just, you know, you've got to earn a living and whatever it is that you do, like if you're lucky enough to enjoy it or get some sort of enjoyment out of it then you're bloody lucky.

That was Vicky McClure and Trigger Point is on ITV1 and ITVX on Sunday the 28th of January at 9pm. Still to come on the programme the actor and activist Jamila Jamil reveals why she's not afraid of making very public apologies and remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week.

Just subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds where you can catch up with any of this week's A-list interviews from Claudia Winkleman to Jet from the original Gladiator series. Now, they were known as Israel's eyes on the border. I'm talking about female Israeli border soldiers who raised concerns about suspicious Hamas activity on the Gaza border in the run-up to the unprecedented October 7th attacks and killings. But those concerns apparently went unheard by higher-ranking officers. That is what is being alleged. Hamas killed at least 1,200 people in those attacks and seized around 240 hostages, around 130 of whom are still being held in Gaza,

some of whom may not still be alive. Since then, more than 25,000 civilians have been killed in the Israeli bombardment that followed, according to the Hamas-run health ministry. Earlier this week, Emma was joined by the BBC's Alice Cuddy, who's reported on these female Israeli soldiers, and Mary-Anne Sieghart, the journalist and author of The Authority Gap, why women are still taken less seriously than men and what we can do about it. Emma began by asking Alice what these female Israeli soldiers told her.

So these are young women who serve in these border units. They're basically surveillance officers, so they're, say, 18 to their early 20s, and their jobs are basically that they're watching live surveillance footage. So they were watching, they say, as Hamas was preparing for the October 7th attacks. Now, they were seeing a range of things. So some of them were saying they were actually seeing the training that Hamas was doing. They were watching them taking over model Israeli tanks on the other side of the fence. They were also watching them detonating bombs near the fence, which they believe was to test the strength of Israel's so-called Iron Wall. One girl, Ronnie, told us that she was seeing

convoys of armed Hamas troops who were driving between observation posts on the other side of the border, talking, pointing at Israel's cameras on the fence, taking pictures, seeming to be looking to see how they might pass it. There was also a lot of people told us about suspicious activity that they were seeing on the other side of the fence. So farmers, sheep herders, bird catchers, who these young women say were behaving suspiciously, their faces were changing, they were moving closer to the fence to areas that they wouldn't normally be in. They believe that they were trying to collect intelligence

ahead of October 7th. And in terms of the communication about this to the Israeli defensibles to the IDF, What did they say about that when reporting this? Yes, so they said that basically these young women say that they were reporting their concerns to their commanders on their bases, and they're also filing them in a computer system where it would kind of be passed up the chain to intelligence and more senior officers who could then piece together the broader intelligence picture. Now, the young women were telling us that as far as they know, they weren't seeing anything being done. Sometimes senior officers would come to the base, but they say one young woman who we're calling Abigail told us no one would talk to us or ask our opinion or tell us about

what was going on. They just came, gave a task and left. Is it mainly women who are in these posts? It's only women that serve in these posts. These particular watch posts on the border. Do we know why? Is that just a quirk? Because obviously both men and women are conscripted in Israel. That's right. No, we were trying to get to the bottom of that and we heard different things. Basically, this unit has just always traditionally been women. Some were saying it's because it's a non-combat role, so it attracts women as opposed to it being only allowed to be women in this unit. Obviously, women in Israel do also serve in combat roles too. Yes, in all those roles. And what do they say about why they feel that they weren't listened to? Yeah, the women we spoke to had different opinions about why they weren't listened to.

I would say the kind of overriding opinion was that it's because they're junior soldiers. They feel that their opinions weren't taken as seriously because of that, because they're kind of at the bottom of the rung when it comes to the military. One thing a few of them said to us was, we're only the eyes, we're not viewed as soldiers, we're just viewed as the eyes. Okay. And so, I mean, you know, there's a lot of analysis that has been going on, but will go on, I suppose, in the future about why this happened, how it happened. But the IDF, in terms of a statement that we've got from the Israeli Defence Force says, the IDF is currently focused on eliminating the threat from the terrorist organisation Hamas.

Questions of this kind will be looked into at a later stage. Let me bring in Marianne Seacart at the moment. We've got some context there and some direct views from, well, through our correspondent here, from the Israeli soldiers that we're talking about. But I know you looked at this story, this theory, these allegations, as it were, Mariana. What do you take from it? Well, I think it's interesting, Emma, that at the beginning, you said these warnings, they went unheard, but actually they went unlistened to because they were very much heard. But senior officers just pushed back. So one high-ranking Israeli officer visited Nahal Oz base. And when the female spotters said to him, look, something serious is going on, he said,

I don't want to hear another word about this nonsense. If you nudge me again about this, you will stand trial. Now, at that base, when the attack happened, 20 female spotters were killed. Another seven were taken hostage, and only two managed to escape. And these women were told that they would stand trial if they raise this matter again. So they were, you know, they were really begging these more senior male officers to take them seriously. And the men were refusing to do so. How much of this is to do with sex and to do with rank? I think it's both. But I mean, what one of the spotters said, there's no doubt that if men had

been sitting at those screens, things would look different. And there was also a veteran intelligence officer who happened to be a woman who pieced together what was going on months before the attack and sent warnings to her superiors saying Hamas are planning this very serious attack. And she predicted almost everything that eventually happened. And a senior intelligence officer wrote to her in response saying, it sounds imaginary to me. In other words, you're making it up. He gaslit her. And she pushed back in another email saying, I utterly refute that the scenario is imaginary. It's a plan designed to start a war. It's not just a raid on a village. And she too wasn't listened to and was ignored. There's also the bigger political picture,

which has been within Israel, highly condemning of Netanyahu, of his leadership, of complacency generally. So I suppose at times when people are saying they're not quite sure, those who aren't quite sure about how this, how much this stacks up and how much it is a case of being, those being women and rank and all of that, you know, it fits into that wider, bigger picture, we should say, which is, you know, being highly criticised at the moment. Well, I'm sure it does. And it's certainly true that senior ranks, senior intelligence, military officers and politicians believed that, you should always be questioning your assumptions and you should always be looking at the raw intelligence to see whether your assumptions are wrong. And it sounds like they weren't prepared to do this. And so I don't know to what extent it was that they were just entrenched in their mindset and to what extent it was that the people telling them were giving them this intelligence or people they just didn't respect.

Alice, is there anything you want to add on that? No, no, I think, yeah, those, I should say, as I say, so the people that we spoke to were saying that they felt that it was predominantly about rank. We also spoke to former IDF officials, one of whom was saying, you know, it's hard to know at this stage an investigation is coming in the future, exactly what was going on. But he said he believed chauvinism could be one part of what was

at play. Okay, well, one part. Go on, Marianne. Well, we do know, Emma, that what women say carries a lot less weight than what men say in general. And I'm not talking here about Israel or border spotters. I'm talking about the dynamics of a group. I mean, there was one fascinating experiment which found that men's contribution to a group discussion had six times more influence than women's contribution, even when they were saying exactly the same thing. And so I think this is just an illustration of that phenomenon. Yeah, I mean, it certainly could be with those other factors that we've explored. And keeping with broadening this out from this particular scenario,

you looked into this for your book. You know, what can women do if they find themselves in this situation where they can tell what they're saying isn't being taken as seriously? Did you find any good strategies? Well, I think it's useful for women to act as allies to other women. I mean, the best thing of all is for men to act as allies to women, because what men say tends to carry more weight. So suppose, Emma, you say something in a meeting, and no one takes any notice until a man repeats it 10 minutes later, and it's treated like the second coming, you know, then one of

your allies can say to the man, oh, I'm so glad you agree with what Emma said earlier. That was Mary-Anne Sieghart and Alice Cuddy speaking to Emma. Now, has it been a busy and exhausting week? Do you often feel weary and depleted? Well, our next guest, Anna Schaffner, knows these feelings well. She used to be a professor of cultural history at the University of Kent, but after suffering burnout, she became a burnout coach instead. Now the coach and cultural historian has written a new book, Exhausted, an A to Z for the Weary. Emma spoke to Anna earlier this week and asked her about the role hobbies can play in alleviating stress.

When we're exhausted, when we lack energy, when we experience an energy deficit, we tend to reduce down our activities. We tend to cut activities out of our lives and our lives shrink. Our horizon of experiences becomes ever smaller. And that is kind of intuitive that we want to avoid expanding energy, but it's also very dangerous because we cut out what has the potential to re-energize us, to nourish us. An example of doing jigsaw puzzles is very beautiful because I do think that when we are in that state, we need to do things for our soul, for ourselves that are purely joy-giving, that just serve the function of making us feel alive, of giving us some respite, of allowing us a moment

of peace and joy in our lives. And hobbies are unapologetically non-instrumentalizable activities, and they can really help us to re-nourish ourselves. So, you know, rather than just cutting everything out of our lives when we feel very depleted. We need to remember what makes us feel alive and what gives us peace and joy and we need to try to bring more of that back into our lives. That was Anna Schaffner and you can listen back to the full interview including a cultural history of exhaustion by searching for the programme from the 16th of January on BBC Sounds.

Now our next guest is the actor and presenter Jamila Jamil, who many of you know from her role as Tahini in the popular Netflix comedy The Good Place. She's also created an initiative called iWeigh, through which women talk about how much they weigh, not in kilos, but in the qualities they like about themselves, and hosts a podcast and events under the same name. But it's her provocative, often sweary social media posts,

often holding the fashion industry and celebrity culture to account for their unrealistic beauty standards that have resulted in many of the headlines about her. Jamila joined Emma in the Women's Hour studio on Wednesday and began by responding to a news story we covered that morning, that rules for so-called abortion buffer zones could be watered down under new draft guidance from the Home Office. The guidance, which is still under consultation, states that protesters can approach women

attending abortion clinics, offer information, engage in discussion and offer silent prayer, all within the 150 metre zone. here's jamila sharing her experience can i just say that when i had my abortion i was pelted with rosary beads in london really yeah just pelting rosary beads at me as if that was going to do anything and i turned around her and i was like if i kept this baby would you abort it it's not would you abort it would you adopt it and she was like no it's like right i'm going in i don't know when was that was that this is uh no this was about 11 years ago okay but it was extraordinary extraordinary the people outside who have absolutely no will or desire to actually

step up and do anything and who have no recognition of the fact that we're in a cost of living crisis so where do they think this money for all this support is going to come from well i mean we'll get more messages i'm sure from some people who have done that. But you had somebody throw beads at you? Throw rosary beads at me and my friend who was carrying me in. I had a male friend walk me in to protect me because I knew there would be people outside. I didn't know what was going to happen, but it was so bizarre. I've never heard the physical side of it before, I suppose, because this is what we're talking about, having space.

I mean, look, I'm five foot ten. I can handle a rosary bead or two. But it was just really extraordinary. And what was said to you, I suppose, by... I was just being called a murderer and called all kinds of terrible names and a few racial slurs just to throw one in. Not to say that all of those people are racist, but I'm just saying it was a deeply unpleasant and very emotionally violent for people who claim to have so much compassion for human life. There was none for mine, just for the unborn. Was there anything about that exchange that did make you think about anything at all? Because I suppose that's what we're driving at today about how you actually change minds, which will come to how you express yourself.

I don't think slurs and I don't think shame. I think this kind of brings us back to what we were talking about. The entirety of my work is based around shame and how it doesn't work and it isn't really an effective tool ever. And I think shaming people and hurling rosary beads at them and hurling abuse at them is a deeply inappropriate way

to try to reckon with someone who's already in an emotional and hormonal and vulnerable state. That's not how you appeal to people. And if you are in a country that currently does not do anywhere near enough to look after the people who are currently already here living on this planet, then you have to think about what you're doing to contribute to the larger system that puts people in a position where they don't feel as though

they would be able to look after a child. I mean, there's a whole range of reasons why somebody would. That can't be where your activism starts and ends. Are you outside an abortion clinic? I mean, you are very straight talking online. You have been. I went back to have a look at some of your tweets and you've deleted some of them that I was trying to find around this. And no, I wiped my whole Twitter.

People think I've deleted certain tweets. It was because I'd handed my Twitter over in 2020 to a charity and I was like, oh my God, there's so much effing and blinding on here that that just feels really inappropriate. I think it was Choose Love. Oh, so you deleted a load of it? I wiped my whole Twitter from 2020 previous. It was a shame because you've got some things out there

that are just interesting to reread, I suppose. Well, God bless the Wayback Machine so everyone can always find my greatest moments of shame. But it's not about shame. I suppose it was about whether you think the way that women talk, and we all talk online, actually gets us anywhere. You have been quite a rare person who's in a high profile field, celebrity field, to actually name people, to say things against individuals, and then you get some blowback yourself. Well, I think some of that blowback is because we aren't accustomed to having women speak their

minds and have strong opinions. But I also, to be perfectly honest, think part of that blowback is because I delivered certain opinions of mine in a very aggressive way. And you are still able to sense some of that aggression and that rage, even just in some of my statements earlier. But I was, I used, I guess what I would call violent communication via swearing or via judgment or via condescension in the way in which I would deliver some of my points and I think that that was something that was very celebrated on the left especially kind of from 2015 onwards the smackdown culture that now exists I I think, on both political sides, where we want to own someone else, we want to humiliate someone else. And that generates the

clicks and the claps. And that's what the algorithm will promote is anything that, I guess, generates outrage. Sex used to sell in our generation. And now, you know, in our youth, and now sex doesn't really sell anymore, because it's so oversaturated now outrage sells and I think I unknowingly contributed to that culture because I was just speaking my mind you know if you think about it pre the me too movement women like me were only ever asked about our lipstick or our hair care routine or how we stay so slim and then suddenly 2015 happens with the Me Too movement and suddenly a microphone is put on our face and we're asked about giant historical social infrastructures

and patriarchy and misogyny, things that we're not accustomed to ever speaking about publicly. And so those of us who are willing to step forward and say something, we were not trained orators in mastering public speaking about these giant systems of oppression. And so some of us, myself especially included, sometimes trying to find a way to say it without swearing, but sometimes we made a mess of that. And so I think that I was messy in my delivery at times in ways that I now regret but can recognize that just like a man is allowed to grow from his mistakes so are women and so I'm learning in real time in front of my

audience on my podcast and very much so reframing the way that I talk to people with whom I disagree and learning non-violent communication because I find that I don't learn when I'm being shamed and maimed and therefore why should uh why should anyone else learn from me in that way it's a weird thing isn't it because you come out of certain phases it now because it's it's growing up with a social media and you look back and you see different trends and the outrage economy was a massive and still is a massive way to get followers clicks and hits and I wasn't trying to no no no but being myself but it was part of that wasn't it yeah and I regret it because especially because I got so much attention and suddenly I was on you know Time Magazine's 25 most influential lists and I was on the cover

of Vogue and I was being so celebrated. You're also fighting with Piers Morgan and people like that. He who shall not be named but he but no it's just in case people are wondering who we're talking about here. Oh right yeah right yeah Pitt Morgan, Lawrence Fox like the Kardashians all these different people and again I wasn't trying to make a name for myself I just thought

God 12 year old me felt so let down by public figures and had no one to turn to who was actually telling the truth about anything and so I guess

I was really kind of doing it for 12 year old me or the next generation of 12 year olds who deserve someone who says the truth who pulls back the Well your version of the truth yeah my version of the truth you're not

necessarily right that's the issue absolutely but my point is about diet culture especially yes sorry well i mean on that we can get had an eating disorder i was pulling back the curtain originally and then i kind of got dragged into more and more things because once you start speaking about one thing publicly then suddenly especially as a woman they're like well why don't you care about this why don't you talk about this you should be using a platform for this and it becomes about a hundred things and then people do get drawn into areas and you get drawn into it because you have immense compassion and you want to be able to you want those people to know that you do care but you are ill-informed and ill-equipped to speak on a lot of these subjects and so I found myself weighing in where I did not belong and simply wasn't ready or prepared to be.

And that is on me for just, I guess not, it's so chaotic when you're in the middle of it. And it's only now that I'm kind of on the other side of it that I can look back and go, God, that was highly disorganized and actually quite irresponsible given the size of my growing platform to weigh in on things that I wasn't yet ready for. Now I feel much more

confident in the subjects that I speak in because they actually come from lived experience. Do you think a lot of celebrities should just shut up? I don't think a lot of celebrities should shut up about everything. No, no, no. But outside of their specialism, we are now seeing a lot of people, as we have for years, be tempted to go... Oh, totally. The last three months has been a disaster, especially. But I would say that using your platform to uplift the voices of other people who are more educated is the best way that a celebrity can use their voice. Celebrities have a terror of accepting and admitting when they're wrong. And it's something that I don't have.

Like, I feel very comfortable being accountable and admitting when I've made a mistake and so I do think that it's part of the I understand the the um I understand the fear of not wanting to admit you were wrong because it does create a bigger pile on publicly but I do think that when we make a mistake we have a duty to learn and grow with the public. I think it's far more important to have people who are willing to say, oh, you know what, actually, upon new information, I have changed my opinion. The problem with our generation, I think, that we are seeing is that we have, you know, I grew up where you had your identity, and then you had your opinion, and your identity was relatively fixed, but not completely, and your opinion was seen as

relatively transient. In fact, I'd say pretty transient. Now it seems as though because of this hellhole of social media, your opinion and your identity have become so deeply intertwined that now when someone criticizes your opinion, you feel as though they're attacking your entire identity. And that's not the case. And I think that's leading to emotion being brought into discussions that emotions don't necessarily belong. We take everything so personally,

we don't know how to handle rejection. And I think that we have become terrified of rejection, terrified of being told that we might be wrong. And I would like to be a part, I guess, as a public figure of making sure that people understand it's okay to be wrong as long as you come back and you do better. Say sorry, do better, carry on. That was Jamila Jamil and you can listen to Wednesday's whole programme on BBC Sounds. And we got a response from the Home Office regarding the potential changing of guidance on so-called abortion buffer zones. A Home Office spokesperson said, we are consulting publicly on the non-statutory guidance on abortion clinic safe access zones. A Home Office spokesperson said, we are consulting publicly on the non-statutory guidance on abortion clinics safe access zones. All responses will be considered ahead of the

Home Office publishing the final version of the guidance. That's all from me today. On Monday, Emma will be speaking to DJ Paulette about her new book, Welcome to the Club, the life and lessons of a black woman DJ. It follows her more than 30-year career, which began at the Hacienda nightclub in Manchester. It's going to be a good one. Join Emma from Monday at 10. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.