Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Jonathan Meijer interviewed on fathering over 550 babies by sperm donation, Gabby Logan, Lisa Jewell

Episode Date: July 6, 2024

A new series was released this week on Netflix. It is called Man with 1,000 Kids, and Netflix is billing it as the true story of Jonathan Meijer, a man accused of travelling the world, deceiving women into having his babies - via sperm donation - on a mass scale. Nuala McGovern talks to Jonathan Meijer, the sperm donor, to mums Natalie and Suzanne, who had a baby conceived with Jonathan’s donor sperm, to Natalie Hill, the executive producer who pitched the original idea for these films to Netflix and to Rachel Cutting, director of compliance and information at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA), the UK’s independent regulator of fertility treatment.Gabby Logan joins Krupa Padhy to talk about her new book The Midpoint Plan. She’s challenging the stereotype of middle age. With fewer insecurities, children leaving home and perhaps a bit more money in the bank, she believes we should see it as the best point in our lives. Plus, if we look after ourselves in midlife, we’ll be happier in old age.Summer is here, which means it's wedding season, and brides-to-be across the country are asking themselves the eternal question: what do I wear for the occasion? Kathryn Wheeler, who married earlier this year, decided to do something that old superstitions advice against: make her own wedding dress. In the process, she learned much more than just sewing skills. She also learned a life lesson, to embrace imperfections.It’s 25 year since the New York Times’ best-selling author Lisa Jewell published her first novel, Ralph’s Party. Since then she’s written another twenty-one novels, and more recently a number of dark psychological thrillers, including Then She Was Gone, The Family Upstairs and the award winning None of This is True. She joins Krupa Padhy to discuss her latest work – Breaking the Dark – which is a Jessica Jones Marvel crime novel, exploring the world of the private detective and former superhero. By the time she was 19, Michelle De Swarte had gone from a council estate in London to the catwalks of Manhattan. Her twenties were a swirl of parties and high end glamour but by her thirties she was broke and in need - as she once put it - of a “new personality”. Desperate to find a way out of fashion, she reinvented herself as a stand-up comedian. Michelle De Swarte joins Nuala to talk about putting some of her own experiences into a new BBC comedy, Spent.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Parti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Krupa Parti. This week, the broadcaster Gabby Logan joined me to talk about her new book and why the middle years of our lives should be some of the best and the changes that worked for her. We also have comedian, actor and former model Michelle Deschwart on her new semi-autobiographical TV comedy, Spent. I cannot tell you how deep I had to dig to find that character.

Not that far, actually. I'd like to be a bit further down the line than here is. Still a little raw. Especially like this close to all the shops. I'm like, well, when I've finished here, clearly I need a little treat. Many believe it's bad luck to make your own wedding dress. Well, I spoke to Catherine Wheeler, who wasn't buying any of that and made her own for her big day. We'll hear how and why she did it.

And the number one bestselling author, Lisa Jewell, on her latest novel, A Marvel Crime Story, and how she's channeling her inner superheroine. So grab a cup of whatever you fancy and settle in. A new series has been released this week on Netflix. It's called The Man With A Thousand Kids. And Netflix is billing it as the true story of a charming Dutchman called Jonathan Mayer, who is accused of travelling the world, deceiving women into having his babies by a sperm donation on a mass scale. So why did Netflix say deceiving? Because Jonathan donated sperm to so many clinics and

private donors around the world that he helped create hundreds of biological children on a level unbeknownst to the mothers. Private donations are when men donate sperm directly to women without going through such a clinic. It could be a friend or someone found online. Jonathan Mayer was banned from donating sperm in the Netherlands in 2017. He continued donating in other countries until 2023, when one woman and a foundation supporting her filed a civil suit against him, arguing he was increasing the risk of incest for his children. In his testimony, Meyer admitted having between 550 and 600 children.

However, the court said he may have fathered up to 1,000 across several continents. The judge ultimately banned Meyer from donating sperm to new parents and said he would be fined 100,000 euros or 85,000 pounds per donation if he did so. Nula was joined by mums Natalie and Suzanne from the Netherlands who are a couple and had a baby conceived with Jonathan's donor sperm privately. Also in the studio was Natalie Hill, the executive producer who pitched the original idea for these films to Netflix. And we hear from Rachel Cutting, director of compliance and information at the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, the UK's independent regulator of fertility treatment. Nuala spoke to Jonathan Mayer, the sperm donor, in his first UK broadcast in a pre-recorded interview. He declined to be a part of the Netflix documentary.

She began by asking one of the mums, Natalie, who used Jonathan Meyer as a private sperm donor, why she was conflicted about Jonathan. I'm conflicted because he told me back then that he was donating to five families and it turned out in 2021, I read the article in the newspaper that it was not five families that he has donated to but hundreds of families and that's why I'm conflicted and

that's why I don't agree with with his methods and that's why I'm I did this documentary. More from Natalie later. Next, Nula spoke to Jonathan Meyer. 550, that's a lot of kids. It is for a normal man, but it's not for a sperm donor. For a sperm donor, it's quite common that they have, they go up into the hundreds of children. They will ship the donor semen to multiple countries, like maybe up into the tents.

I'm not really that special. I'm just like a common donor, only I am visible because I donated also privately. Why did you want to become a sperm donor? Basically, I was in college and there was a friend of mine, we studied together, and he was infertile. But it had a big impact on me because I saw the effect that it had on his life. And I start to think for like, well, could I be a donor? Could I be someone that helps others with creating a family? Yeah. So then I first started at a Dutch sperm clinic, but I was missing the human aspect. It felt a bit too clinical to me. So what were you trying to get from that human connection?

There's multiple reasons why somebody becomes a donor. It's not just one reason. It's like a whole waver of many different aspects that makes it appealing to be a donor. And one of them is indeed, if if you help privately that you are indeed important and you can do something meaningful with your life. You will know various mothers have asked you to stop donating. The main fear appears to be that they are concerned that their child may meet a half sibling in the future, fall in love with them, be in a relationship with them,

which of course could lead to genetic birth defects if that young related couple had a child together. Consanguinity. I mean, that's a real fear. No. If you're known about how it is to be a donor nowadays, you can see that they have not done any studies on how it is for children of open identity donors. All the tests that you are referring to,

all the science is based upon anonymously donors. So because it's very recent that donors are open to identity, there are not really have been done any studies because the children are maybe now 15, 16, 17. So the first studies need to be done. And I can guarantee you that because now there's cheap DNA tests, for example, I'm also on a DNA test, like 23 and me in my ancestry, so they can find out easily. Secondly, the parents will all tell that their children are from a donor. It's also visible because they're like a lesbian couple or they're like a single mom. So the children will have this answer. Where's my father?

They will bring up your donor child. So because they all know my identity, even if the chance happens that they would meet each other, they can simply ask. They can ask, are you a donor child, first of all? And secondly, is your donor father Jonathan? I mean, I don't know about you, Jonathan, but I can't imagine when I was a teenager meeting young lads. One of my first questions to them when I just fancied them about whether they were a donor child.

I just can't see that happening. Yeah, but you are not a donor child. You were born... You don't know whether I am or not, but... Yeah, but I assume but you are not a donor child. You were born... You don't know whether I am or not, but... Yeah, but I assume that you're not a donor child. And if you were a donor child, you would be brought up with the idea that you're a donor child. It's your identity. They know

that they're a donor child. So they also know that at a certain moment in their life, they have to be aware and they have to think, well, maybe I can... I don't know. To me, that seems like a big... Also like a donor child. So you don't see anything wrong if a kid has hundreds of half siblings? I don't see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I think it's very good.

I cannot speak for them. But for what I see is that they're very happy that there are so many siblings because they meet with donor days and they meet with each other. They go on holidays together so you don't understand anybody being uncomfortable with that why should they be uncomfortable it's what they chose for how how if they would say they didn't realize how many how many times you had donated or how many children have been created? Look, if you want exclusivity, you go to the Cryos Clinic. You pay 10,000 euros and then your donor is exclusive.

There's a couple of things. One, Cryos International, they say they've always adhered to the national and international legislation, that they don't condone mass sperm donation or unregulated sperm donation, and that they really disassociate from your actions they said that they have always you know demanded valid identification of identity before people can be accepted as donors so if somebody had gone to cryos the chances are they might have thought okay maybe not exclusive but they're not expecting those vast numbers to have been created with their donor. Why not?

Because the guidelines are 25 families. In one country. So if you go to the UK, it's also 25. And the same donor... Why do you want to do that, Jonathan? Now, wait, wait a second, wait a second. Let's continue. This is very important because this is...

You see, in 2024 people are not aware of this they of course they keep the cap in one country but the same donor gets shipped to germany 30 30 and i'm fine with that it's fine but we have to know that this is reality so you say you are not doing it but that the sperm banks are doing it i follow the same guidelines as sperm banks jonathan mayer talking to the same guidelines as the sperm banks. Jonathan Mayer talking to Nula there. Nula also spoke to Mums Natalie and Suzanne from the Netherlands and Rachel Cutting of the HFEA. She began by asking Suzanne for her reaction to what she had just heard.

Clearly, he does not really see the results of his actions and does not really want to take and acknowledge the responsibility towards the children because in the end of the day that we have been lied to um sure but if the children that are put on this world that might not be aware that they're their donor child there's heterosexual couples having a donor child um they might not know this they might not be aware that they're a donor child. There are heterosexual couples having a donor child. They might not know this. They might not even know who the donor is, even if they have same-sex parents or a single mother.

And the biggest concern, Natalie, is, for you? The biggest concern for me is the fact that these children are going to run into one another and going to fall to run into one another and going to fall in love with one another because they recognize something in in each other and they're not aware of the fact that they're from the same donor dad and that's that's the biggest risk that i see because he talks about being an open donor a known yeah, in fact, he has donated to numerous clinics all over the globe. And not all the clinics share the same values as maybe you and I do

about being open and honest towards your children. He says, as you will have heard, that you knew the deal, that he was a sperm donor, that there was no exclusive arrangement and I'm wondering what you think of that and what your expectation was. Yeah he told me that he when I first met him that he wanted to help only five families and he told me back then that he went to a clinic and he was not comfortable but using his sperm towards the clinics because the clinics would make made a lot of money so i was he he made me feel at ease using his sperm and later on in 2020 he was sitting on our couch and we asked him again because we wanted to have

a second child because the first child i had with my ex girlfriend at the time and the second child, because the first child I had with my ex-girlfriend at the time and the second child we wanted to have together. And he told us 25 was the case. So... And I don't know how many specifically he's had in the Netherlands, but it does come to that larger point about no global registry, as I understand it, yet either. What gave me pause watching, speaking to Jonathan,

speaking to you all now as well, and let me turn to Rachel Cutting from the HFEA, is that he talks about it being quite common for sperm donors to help create hundreds of children, if not in one country, but by various, going to various jurisdictions. Is it common? Could it be common for a sperm donor to have created hundreds of children globally? I suppose to put it into context, we can think about what happens in the UK and fertility treatment in the UK is very regulated

and that isn't always the case globally. So in the UK, any treatment is carried out in a licensed centre, licensed by the HFVA, which helps ensure that safe and ethical treatment happens. And within the UK, we have a 10 family limit and all donors are registered on our central database. Any clinic can check within the UK how many families in the UK they have. But what can happen is that donors can donate outside the UK. So whilst we have control in the UK, the HFPA doesn't have any jurisdiction outside the UK

or what happens within private donations, which is why we encourage women to go to a licensed HFPA clinic. Today in The Times I was reading, Sophia Manikutz had an article and she said there's no law preventing donors or clinics from selling sperm to multiple different countries and she goes on to say, so following recommended guidelines in each country, the same clinic

can easily sell sperm from one donor to father six families in Sweden twelve families in Denmark, ten families in Britain and as many as they like in the United States because there is no limit. Is that how you understand it, Rachel? Yes, there is a limit in the UK and that is because we have strict legislation and guidance. But outside of the UK, that's not something that we can control. I do believe that in some countries they do set limits. So I know in

Australia, perhaps there are limits. But because we have a central database, it's something that we can very much keep control over. But outside the UK or private donations, we can't do anything about. Let me read a little from Cryos, which Jonathan also mentioned, that is a sperm bank. I mentioned a little of it when I was speaking to him. They also said that Jonathan succeeded in donating to several sperm banks, including Cryos International. When he became a donor at Cryos, neither Cryos nor the public knew he had already donated to several other sperm banks.

As a Cryos donor, you sign an agreement that states two things, that you donate exclusively to Cryos International and that you have not donated elsewhere and do not do so in the future. When we became aware

of his breach of contract, we immediately made his sperm unavailable on our website. They go on to say, and this is what I find very interesting, since there is no common international database for sperm donors, Cryos International and other sperm banks have never had a way of checking if a donor had already donated elsewhere. That is why we at Cryos long have been advocating for a European or a global database that would allow us to avoid cases like these in the future.

Last year, Cryos asked the EU Commission to revise the legislation on the area. So we're hoping that a donor database could become a reality before long. Furthermore, we're actively working for a common national donor register in Denmark through a Danish trade association for egg and sperm donation. And I imagine they're mentioning Denmark there because that is the largest sperm bank globally. Let me come back to you, Natalie and Suzanne. As I say all these things, and this issue is global, really. Are you surprised? Not at all. While researching this topic, like there's a reason that we came to 1000 children, and we're not exaggerating with this. One thing, for instance, that we found out is that specifically Jonathan's sperm was maxed out in many, many, many of the countries that Cryos ships to.

At this moment, we can't see that anymore, but we have seen that. So there's that. Then that is only one sperm bank. If they don't have a database, if they don't share this information with each other, that's a horrible thing. But in the end of the day, what if we look at the person? Because in the end of the day, it's the person going to a clinic,

it's the person going to a sperm bank, doing these private donations. Yes, Suzanne, but I'm wondering, can you control a person's behavior? Are you relying on that person to behave in a way that you want them to? If you make it criminal to behave in a certain way, we can monitor people's behaviour. If you go to a shopping mall, you can't steal clothes, you can't steal food. If you do that and you get caught, you get a fine or maybe imprisonment. So if you look at the behavior of a person, you can control it if you make it illegal.

So instead of these... Look at the women's side of the thing, right? So can we just be a surrogate? Can you just tell your ex online? Can you even ask for a surrogate? Can you sell your ex online can you even ask for a surrogate can you sell your your your kidneys online no back to you rachel cutting if a listener has used a sperm donor is thinking about it should they be concerned so if you've had treatment in the uk you can apply to opening the register and as a woman who's had treatment they can find out um the number of

siblings that have been born through that donor in the year and sex at birth of those siblings. What we would say is that if that donor is a UK donor there is obviously the limit within the UK but it is possible that if you've imported a donor from overseas that that donor will have been used in other countries so it is possible outside of the UK that there may be more siblings. And that issue of exclusivity, is that a way to guarantee it? I mean, I am aware that overseas sperm banks do offer that. Do UK not? You can do that through a clinic in the UK. I'm sure you would be able to, but obviously there is costs involved in that. How valid are fears of consanguinity

so that of close blood relatives being attracted to one another having a child together that could have genetic defects that Natalie was mentioning to me? So this was why the 10 family limit was set up in the UK quite a few years ago because it was felt that that was a reasonable number to to reduce the chance of that. There are DNA websites now where it is quite a lot easier now to be able to find out if you do have relations. And of course, now in the UK, the law changed in 2005 that when you are 18, you can access identifiable information. And from the age of 16, if you are in a relationship and you do have concerns, say you just knew you were both donor conceived, you can check that information with the H have concerns, say you just knew you were both donor conceived,

you can check that information with the HFVA, which always comes around for why it's important to have access of treatment in a clinic. I will let you all go. Just a very quick one to you, Natalie. Does your child know about all the half-siblings and how does he or she feel about it? Not all the half-siblings,

because I don't know even who are all the half siblings but he knows that he's a part of a large group of half siblings and he feels, yeah, he has so many questions and even we were talking to him yesterday at the dinner table about this subject

and he had a few questions towards Jonathan and like how many are there and then he he was like he paused and he he thought okay and if he's not honest then I have another question where did you donate so that he can do the number the math the mathematics if if the the number that Jonathan has told him was correct. That was mums Natalie and Suzanne from the Netherlands and Rachel Cutting of the HFEA and sperm donor Jonathan Meyer. The Man with a Thousand Kids is available on Netflix now. We did approach Netflix for a response but they said

that they would not be providing a comment. Now when I say the phrase middle age I wonder what image comes to your mind. Is it of a man in a red sports car with a young girlfriend or an angry woman having a hot flush? Well, this is the stereotype the broadcaster and author Gabby Logan wants to see change. Gabby's podcast, The Midpoint, aims to highlight the joys that can come from reaching your midlife. And in her new book, she's brought together all the tips her guests have given her, as well as the things that she's learnt along the way. Gabby joined me earlier this week, and I began by asking her

why she thought midlife should be the best chapter. There's so many reasons why you could get a bit despondent about the physical changes and things. So many. And, you know, we do value youth and we value newness, don't we, in society. And I feel we, as women, we have potentially come to the period of our life where we're starting to look at an empty nest. You know, if we've had children in our 30s, they might be about to leave home and go to university. Although lots of people tell me children never really leave home. They

always fly back again. But, you know, there's that period where you get a bit more time. If you've worked hard on your career, you might be pivoting and changing. So I think there's lots to be excited about in the face of what sounds quite challenging from a physical and mental point of view, not least because of women's hormonal changes. Well, that's just it, because throughout the book, there's this kind of constant message coming through. Look after yourself, your mental well-being, your physical well-being. But there'll be women listening to this who are so run off their feet, maybe looking after elderly parents, looking after young kids, you know, women are having children later in life, teenagers, whatever it might be, and just can't imagine having the time to look after themselves. How do you do it? And why is it so important?

The one thing that comes back again and again from all the experts, because in each episode, I have a well-known person, but also an expert. And the one thing that comes back again and again from all the experts, because in each episode I have a well-known person, but also an expert. And the one thing that comes back every time from the fitness experts, from the diet and lifestyle experts is it is never too late to make a change. So, you know, if you're feeling, well, I've never liked exercise since I was at school, start tomorrow, one step at a time, you know, couch to 5K, anything like that. Very humble beginnings. You can make huge physical changes to your longevity and your well-being because I feel if you're putting all that effort into your life, the person you've just described there is the classic sandwich generation

where you've got older parents, you've got teenagers who still really lean on you and need you, you're working all hours, God sends, to make ends meet. You've got all these people demanding of your time, but it's that classic thing about the oxygen coming down on the plane. If you don't look after yourself first, you can't look after anybody else. And so taking a bit of time to do some exercise, to think about what you're eating will stand you in much better stead for old age. And what I'm looking at throughout the whole book is the potential that we're all going to live quite

long lives because of the way medicine has changed, because the way we look after ourselves. And you want an active and productive and purposeful older age, not one where you're just existing. That was my aim kind of through the book that I'm thinking of myself as an 80 year old here and how that's going to look. And I've got a lot of longevity in my family. On my mum's side, we've had four people live to be over 100 years old. So I have to assume that, you know, God willing, I might end up like them. And I want to feel useful and I want to feel purposeful and I want to feel energetic for as long as I can. So the point, I guess, through all of this midlife is to look after ourselves so that we can enjoy those years where we might have a bit more time and and we're able to do things not just sit and exist so much

of the book talks about your personal experiences it's weaved in throughout really and and one of the early things you talk about is brain fog when you were live on tv talk us through that I found out about perimenopause through my podcast Mariella Frostrop came on and she started she's 10 years older than me and she started talking about the symptoms that led her to her menopause through my podcast. Mariella Frostrop came on and she started, she's 10 years older than me, and she started talking about the symptoms that led her to her menopause journey. And she's written about this and she's something of an expert really in this area

and has done lots of campaigning. And after the podcast recording, I said, lots of those things you talk about are going on with me at the moment. My memory feels like it's failing me sometimes in crucial moments. And there was this general feeling of not so much anxiety, but worry that I'd never had before feeling a little bit you know more

anxious feeling a little bit more and not knowing why not knowing why no idea and then realized this was a list of perimenopausal symptoms I was ticking quite a few of those boxes and went on my own journey to discover so the brain fog is classic that's one of the perimenopausal symptoms a lot of women will recognise. And in the job that I do, live broadcasting all the time, live sport, talking about, you know, many, many, many sports people, having to recall names, having to recall moments, I felt I was not as good at it. I kept worrying that I wasn't getting those names into my head. I wasn't getting those those matches I wasn't getting that result and when I knew what it was when I realized this wasn't just me with my brain full and that was it you know the database the bank was full I could do something about it you know personally I went on journey of HRT and then started to look at what I could do to help my brain making sure I could do memory exercises trying to stay with me and yeah and I things like you know when you get a new set of bank details for somebody having a look at the number the account number and trying to remember it in one go just little tests that you do for yourself and also not recalling if you can't recall a word or

the name or a film don't dive into your phone straight away and google it trying to even it takes two minutes something so simple yeah it's really simple And your brain is a muscle. It needs that exercise. The other personal story you mentioned is the death of your brother very suddenly when he was just 15 years old. I mean, I wonder what impact that had on your outlook on life, but also whether that re-emerged when you were in midlife. It did re-emerge when my son was approaching his 16th birthday. And that would have been three three summers ago and so I would have been 49 48 and it really blindsided me how in the months building up to that I I started to

I suppose relate to my mum and what she went through at that point in in all our lives much more than I ever had done because I lost a brother my siblings lost a brother but and I knew the impact that losing a child is the most difficult and traumatic thing for any parent to go through because it's totally out of the natural order of life and the suddenness of his death but I think approaching my son's 16th birthday he was very similar he wanted to be a professional sports person like my brother he was very not dissimilar looking and and suddenly that really impacted in a very strange way from the point of view of me being a bit more protective than I might have been I think as a mum at that age not wanting him to almost grow up and you know and experience things because you're scared of what happens next and reaching the 16th birthday

I felt a relief almost that he could he could grow into adulthood and um and it was definitely something I'd say that slightly blindsided me not least because he's got a twin sister who's who's the same age but I think it was very much the son relationship that you know my mum and my dad obviously went through that was Gabby Logan and her book the midpoint plan is out now summer is here which means so is the wedding season. And brides-to-be across the country are asking themselves that eternal question, what do I wear? My next guest, who married earlier this year, decided to do something that old superstitions tell us you shouldn't, to make your own wedding dress. In the process, Catherine Wheeler learned so much more than just sewing skills.

She also learned a life lesson to embrace imperfections. Catherine joined me earlier this week and I began by asking her where the idea to make her own wedding dress came from. Well, I suppose I just love needle craft in all its forms. And so when you get engaged, of course, you immediately turn to the wedding dress. And I thought a lot about it, but it was mostly that I thought, if I don't do this, I think I'll always wonder what I could have done if I had attempted it. So I kind of had a vision of what I sort of wanted and just went for it. I wasn't very experienced. I'd done a couple of things in my GCSE textiles, but beyond that, hadn't really had much experience. But I thought I could probably do it if I took my time and followed

the instructions. So just so I'm clear, GCSE textiles to making your own wedding dress, that's quite the jump. You've described it as a moment of courage. I think it had to be. I think I had to be very comfortable with the idea that if I was going to do this, it wasn't going to be perfect. There were going to be some wonky scenes, there was going to be some little quirks here and there. But I had to weigh that up and decide that actually, to me, it was worth it. It was worth being able to go through that experience to be able to wear a dress that I wanted, that I made myself. So I suppose it was courage in the sense of weddings are always about perfection and feeling perfect.

And I'm working towards a place of feeling perfect within my own ability, within something I could do myself. It took you nine months to make this dress. I wonder, were there ever moments where you thought, what have I got myself into here? Absolutely, always constantly. I made a couple of trial dresses before moving on to the final fabric. It's the beautiful, beautiful satin. I didn't want to risk doing anything too wrong with that the actual final

dress itself I think only took about four weeks in the end but by then I'd made the dress twice so really you've got a spare should have known what I was doing by that point I want to explore what this meant for your own self-growth you've touched on a bit of there you you talked about it being littered with imperfections but I wonder was that just you being hard on yourself I suppose yes and no um there were things that were wrong with it so very close to the end I was redoing a seam and I was using a stitch ripper for those who don't sew it's like a very small knife it's quite quite sharp. It has to go through the stitches. And I cut my finger and I bled on the dress a couple of weeks before. And it was a very small patch, but it was there and it became part of the dress.

And I think in that moment, I had two choices. I could have been devastated that I've bled on my dress at this very, very late point and stained it. Or I could look at that and think what you know that's evidence I did this that I touched every inch of this dress I made every seam every every single part of it um and so that that was definitely a real mistake and then there's perceived things as well where you look at it and you're very harsh and you think oh that's not that's not quite straight or that's not quite as I would have liked it. But it's about just embracing it.

Again, it was my dress. No other dress could be like that. No other dress would turn out like that. And it happened that way because of all the choices I made along the way. Catherine Wheeler there. Still to come on the programme, the comedian, actor and former model Michelle Deschouart

on her new semi-autobiographical TV comedy. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. It's 25 years since New York Times bestselling author Lisa Jewell published her first novel, Ralph's Party. Since then, she's written another 21 novels and more recently, a number of dark psychological thrillers, including Then She Was Gone, The Family Upstairs and the award winning None of This Is

True. Her latest work, Breaking the Dark, is a Jessica Jones Marvel crime novel. She joined me this week and I began by asking her how she felt when she was approached by Marvel to write this. Utterly, utterly perplexed, bamboozled, confused, shocked. Very much the first question that popped into my head was why me? I'm not a Marvel aficionado. I'm not even really a Marvel fan. And it just seemed extremely unexpected and but also completely thrilling. And it's not just a new genre for me, but it's actually a new genre full stop. Yeah. Full length crime novels written about Marvel characters. It's never been done before. Was there a pressure on you to satisfy your loyal readers and also kind of target and engage this new group of readers?

Absolutely. And that was the hardest thing. I gave myself five months to write this book, but it ended up taking me 14 months. And the reason why it took me so long to write is because of trying to strike that balance. And I kept going too far. I'd been briefed to write at least a novel that Lisa Jewell readers would love, but I kept going to Marvel, kept getting it so horribly wrong. So I stripped it all back in the end. I thought, what do my readers like? What do I love writing about? And I don't like writing about underground laboratories

full of mad scientists. I like writing about creepy people and weird people and strange families. And so that's what I did. I just brought it all back to the sorts of things that I love writing about, but in this Marvel context. I mentioned Jessica Jones, a private investigator, a retired superhero. Tell us more about her. The reason why she's not a superhero anymore is because she had a terribly traumatic experience. So she's suffering from PTSD. She's got an alcohol problem. She's got a man problem. She's

got a self-esteem problem. She's kind of broken. She's struggling to get through every day. I don't want to give away the plot, but can you give us a bit ofesteem problem. She's kind of broken. She's struggling to get through every day. I don't want to give away the plot, but can you give us a bit of an outline as to what kind of a story we're looking at? Yeah, it is. I'm going to call it more of a Black Mirror type of storyline. And it's really about dark technology. And it's all set in the world of beauty influencers. And it's about these teenagers who spent the summer,

these American teenagers who spent the summer in Essex with their British father, and they've come back and they're abnormally perfect. Their skin is perfect. They're not looking at their phones, and their mother is incredibly worried that something terrible happened to them while they were in the UK for their summer holidays.

And so she asked Jessica Jones to go to Essex. So I get to send my American superhero to Essex to uncover what happened while they were there. And then the plot unfolds. Let's talk about the other strong female characters in the book because she's not alone. No, it is very much a book of, yes, I think it is very much a book about strong female characters.

So we have the malign beauty influencer uh called Polly and she's furiously ambitious um lethally so oh and there's also another character called Ophelia there is who is I don't want to say too much about Ophelia because then we're going into spoilers um so yeah it's kind of a four-header of these four extraordinary women some Some of them are bad, some of them are good, some of them are broken, but they're all incredibly strong characters. You are a mother now and you raise as a central theme in the book, the subject of social media, filters. How concerned are you about these matters? On a small granular personal level, I am not because my daughters both have quite high self-esteem but they do spend an hour every day contouring their faces to make themselves as

they say to catfish themselves yeah um and which I find bizarre you know I was a commitment I was a teenager in the 80s it was just like a little bit of heather shimmer lipstick from blusher in the wrong place blusher in the wrong place back comb my hair and I was good to go. So the idea that my children devote so much of their precious free time to making themselves look perfect. And then obviously photographing themselves and sharing images of themselves on social media using filters. And it just gives this incredibly unrealistic expectation of what people are supposed to look like and that's what worries me is we'll get to a point where we don't remember what people are supposed to look like and it doesn't just apply to young people you know women

of my age as well we're not allowed to look old so there are some really much bigger issues about this idea that we've all got to look perfect all the time. All of your novels are individual. We've got romantic comedy, we've got fiction, crime, psychological thrillers, now Marvel. Was this intentional on your part or has your style grown and developed over the years? Yeah, that's precisely what's happened. I started off, in fact, the first book I sat down to write when I was in my 20s back in the late 90s, it was meant to be a thriller uh I started off writing a thriller and then just because of the way my the headspace I was in the world I was living in zeitgeist the 90s being in love being young it ended up being a romantic comedy um and it did really really well in 1999 and so I couldn't jump straight

from writing a well-loved romantic comedy into the dark stuff. So I've just done it really gradually, like baby steps, hoping, like looking over my shoulders. Anybody noticed yet? So with each book, I've just kind of shifted a little bit further down the path to the point that I'm at now where... A Marvel crime author. A Marvel crime author. Yes. Killer of characters.

Writer of darkness. All of the above. Lisa Jewell there. And Breaking the Dark is out now. By the time she was 19, our next guest had gone from a council estate in London to the catwalks of Manhattan. Her 20s were a swirl of parties and high-end glamour. But then in her 30s, she was broke, in need, as she once put it,

of a new personality and desperate to find a way out of fashion. So she reinvented herself as a stand-up comedian. Sounds like a TV show? Well, some of it now is. Michelle Deschouart has written, created and also stars in a brilliantly funny new comedy TV series called Spent, which is in part inspired by her own experiences in and on the other side of the modelling industry. Let's hear a bit of it. Here's Michelle's character, Mia, in trouble with her financial advisor after some crazy spending. I can't come over here every day and this is urgent. You've got to bring down your spending dramatically. Yeah, I just like nice stuff.

You spent $36,500 on brunch. You haven't had the brunch at Snap, have you? You've spent close to $14,000 on crystals. Over 12 months. You're making it sound bad because you're adding it all together. Like when you grow up with no money and then you get a big chunk of money, you've got to like spend the poverty out your system. Do you know what I mean? Like to celebrate.

Sounds fun, doesn't it? Michelle Deschouart joined Nuala this week and she began by asking her the extent to which the series is based on her. I cannot tell you how deep I had to dig to find that character. Not that far, actually. It's funny hearing a clip from the show because I'd like to be a bit further down the line than Mia is. Still a little raw. Especially like this close to all the shops. I'm like, well, when I've finished here, clearly I need a little treat. The show is called Spent, which is such a great name. So this is talk about being

spending money, financially spent, emotionally spent? treat. The show is called Spent, which is such a great name. So this is talk about being spending money, financially spent, emotionally spent? Yeah, yeah, all the above. And yeah, Mia is coming out the other end of having a sort of high flying, you know, fortuitous life in fashion. And she's got a kind of consumerism hangover, I guess, after years of overspending and living beyond her means. And you were a young girl who, a teenager really, who went to Manhattan. What was that like being catapulted onto catwalks really from a totally different life in London? It was definitely a heady experience. And it wasn't all great, but I think the sort of lens that people look through fashion is like, it's amazing. And so you also tell yourself, it's amazing.

It's not bad. There's a lot of worse jobs I've done before. But yeah, it's definitely a unique experience. And I think when you come out the other end, although I've got a lot of great stories, you do have a slight bit of sort of battle fatigue I think. Well some of it you are putting it into spent there is one episode I was watching the second episode I think and there's a party where there's lots of models some of them very young and the language doesn't hold back this is the line that said Epstein Island talking about this club a reference to Jeffrey Epstein who died of suicide before his trial for sex trafficking but I suppose what you're doing there is you're trying to show some of the darker side or underworld of modeling particularly probably a number of years ago when you were starting out

yeah I'm you know you kind of can't sort of overlook the fact that many models start at 12, 13, 14. And you are, you know, there's sort of child labour issues as well in that because you're children. But because it's seen as fashion, you're allowed to go to these different countries without a chaperone. Maybe English isn't your first language. Of course, the show is a comedy. Yes, and it's very funny. Oh, thank you very much. I loved it.

So you kind of, I mean, I'm the same with stand-up, which is wanting to highlight issues but not make it too weighty but definitely, hopefully some sort of food for thought. Because even that when I'm listening to it, I was like, did they just say that? Yeah, yeah.

To your point, but here's another one from an old article that is about you talking about going to the Notting Hill Carnival in the 90s. And you said, I turn up thinking I look like a dancehall queen, but really was more urban Morris dancer. Which, you know, I know what you're talking about there. It's conjured it up in a second. But where does that sense of humour come from? And if you're comfortable talking a little about your family as well.

Yeah, I mean, I come from a very, like, amazing, eclectic mix of women. And I grew up in, you know, a matriarchal household and, you know, working class. And, you know, I grew up with hearing women sit around a kitchen table and make jokes about things that I guess on the face of things seemed pretty grim. But it was always laughter, maybe some tears, but always laughter. The relationship as Mia, the character, portrays her relationship with her parents. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she does. And, you know, Mia returns back after living away for

a long time she's lived in a different country and she comes back and she's sort of trying to recalibrate but she also hasn't had a lot of emotional growth you know so she's sort of come back and is still behaving very much like the person she was when she left which was a teenager and um you know her parents have got different issues that probably take a bit more, you know, thought and care and time. And Mia doesn't have the bandwidth for that at the time because she's kind of in the world of escapism. I love it. She gets such a burn from a teenager who says,

like, you speak like a teenager, which Mia takes as a plus. And then like a teenager from years ago, you kind of, the language had moved on and you're still stuck in the 90s. I have to say that because I genuinely feel like that myself because I left at 20. And although I never lost my accent from living in the States. You definitely didn't. Yeah, but it also didn't progress. It didn't grow in any way. I still use the same slang that was sort of current in the early noughties. So, yeah, still saying bruv in it. And yeah.

Our thanks there to Michelle Deschouart. Her show Spent will be on BBC Two next Monday at 9pm. That's it from Weekend Woman's Hour. Have a lovely weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.