Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Julianne Moore, Women’s Prize for Fiction winner Yael van der Wouden, ultrarunner Stephanie Case

Episode Date: June 14, 2025

Julianne Moore has won countless awards and nominations for films like Boogie Nights, The End of the Affair, The Hours, as well as winning an Oscar for her performance in the film Still Alice. Her latest role sees her play Kate in the upcoming film Echo Valley alongside Sydney Sweeney, who plays her daughter Claire. Julianne tells Nuala McGovern about her character who's coming to terms with a personal tragedy while running her farm and training horses, when her daughter shows up, hysterical and covered in someone else’s blood, flipping Kate’s world upside down.Next week not one but two amendments are being brought before MPs, both of which could mean, if passed, that women will no longer be prosecuted for terminating a pregnancy in England and Wales. It comes amid concern more women are being investigated by police on suspicion of illegally ending a pregnancy. Anita Rani is joined by the BBC's Health Correspondent Nick Triggle and Labour MP Tonia Antoniazzi, one of those who is tabling an amendmentIn 2015, 22-year-old Alice Figueiredo took her own life whilst being treated at Goodmayes Hospital, east London. Over the course of her 5 month stay at the mental health unit she attempted suicide on 18 separate occasions. Following a seven-month trial at the Old Bailey, a jury found that not enough was done by the North East London Foundation NHS Trust, or ward manager Benjamin Aninakwa, to prevent Alice from killing herself. Alice’s mum, Jane Figueiredo, has spent the last decade fighting to get the case to court. She discusses the impact it has had on her family.Canadian born human rights lawyer, Stephanie Case, went viral online when she finished first place in the women’s section of the Snowdonia ultra-trail 100km race despite giving birth six months ago and breastfeeding her daughter at aid stations. Stephanie tells Nuala McGovern about her first race as a mother and first competition in three years and why she chose to continue to do the things she loves after becoming a mum.The Safekeep by Yael van der Wouden is set in the Netherlands in 1960 and tells the story of Isabel and Eva, two women who are both struggling to find their place in a society that isn’t yet modern but does not want to reflect on the horrors of the Second World War. Yael joins Anita to discuss her critically acclaimed debut novel which has been shortlisted for the Booker and is this years Women’s Prize for Fiction winner.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome and what a selection of highlights we have from the week. The actor Julianne Moore popped into Woman's Hour HQ to tell us about her latest film Echo Valley which explores a difficult mother and daughter dynamic. We look forward to two amendments which are being brought before MPs next week, both of which could mean if passed that women will no longer be prosecuted for terminating a pregnancy in England and Wales. We hear from this year's Women's Prize for Fiction winner Yael Fandervouden,

who won with her astonishing debut novel The Safekeep. And mum, human rights lawyer and now ultra marathon winner Stephanie Case on running 100 kilometres while postpartum and breastfeeding on why it was so important for her to go back to ultra running after she'd had her baby. We go through such an incredible transformation as women when we become new mothers, physically, mentally, financially, emotionally. And through all of that change, it was so comforting to be able to know that that runner part of me had not left. Lots to get through, so let's get started.

Julie Ann Moore has won countless awards and nominations for films like Boogie Nights, The End of the Affair, The Hours, as well as winning an Oscar for her incredible performance in the film Still Alice and I've got to name-check one of my faves, The Big Lebowski. Well on Monday she came into the Woman's Hour studio to talk to Nula about her newest role which sees her play Kate in the upcoming Apple TV film Echo Valley alongside Sydney Sweeney who plays her daughter Claire. Kate is coming to terms with a personal tragedy while running her farm and training horses when her daughter Claire shows up hysterical and covered in someone else's

blood flipping Kate's world upside down. A high-stakes twisting and turning story and folds involving the very difficult mother and daughter dynamic. Julianne Moore told Nuala why she thinks her character, Kate, is neither a saint nor a villain. She's lost her partner, and she's really struggling with her grief and genuine inertia, too. Grief is not a mobilizing emotion. It's something that leaves you pretty flattened.

And she's trying to run this farm all by herself, so she's having real economic difficulty. And she also has this child that she loves very much who's struggling with addiction. And so we're starting at a place of trouble for her. And when this girl comes back, this child that she loves very much, a young adult, by the way, and says, you know, I need help. You watch Kate make these decisions in order to help her. And these decisions, I'd say they are morally complicated. So you're not seeing somebody come from a place of like real authority, of I know what's right and wrong, I know what's best for you.

She's almost coming from a place of problem solving, but really just one tiny step at a time. And I suppose that question of how far would a mother go for their child when it's messy? That's right, pretty darn far. I don't know, we all struggle with that, right? I think that that's what we do as parents. You're like, where is the boundary? Where am I helping them and providing them with scaffolding in order for them to learn?

And when have I taken away their agency? Because we all know that if you do make these decisions for someone, they're never going to develop properly. And particularly when you're dealing with addiction, which is a very, very complicated and very sad subject. And it's a disease, but it's also a family disease. So how is

it affecting everyone in the family? But in this, we don't, I don't know that we necessarily judge Kate's actions or think about, you know, think about whether they're right or wrong. I think we're with her as she makes these choices one after another. And that maternal messy love as we talk about. Because I think you're hitting the nail on the head there because even if somebody, some money will have dealt with family members with addiction of whatever kind, which I think will resonate very strongly at times, but that larger, broader stroke is letting children take the consequences of their actions, even if you can see they're making a mistake. Right, right. That's hard to do, even if

it's a haircut. But it's an interesting concept. I'm wondering how one scene will land, which I've talked about edge of the seat, that it's you and your daughter is an incredibly intense scene. There is violence at times. I think I know you'll know what I'm talking about, but I'm not giving away any spoilers. But what is it like to do those incredibly intense physical and at times violent scenes, particularly when it's meant to be a mother daughter relationship? Well, Sydney Sweeney, who's just a lovely, a lovely actress,

she and I, I think we're very, I think we felt really good together, we felt really safe, and we were interested in exploring this. It's a huge dramatic set piece, this scene. There's a lot of physicality in it, and it's really about the intensity of a relationship between a mother and a daughter, and both of us, I am the mother of an adult daughter, she is the adult daughter of a mother, we both know what that relationship is, how potent it is, how much it can bear. And I think there's also an elasticity to it, to how much you can fight and how much you can forgive one another and how deep you can go.

It's sort of built into that relationship. And so we wanted to to explore it. The idea that that you, it can take it, but but but it obviously it's very theatrical, it's really dramatic, and it's very upsetting as well. But do you take that afterwards with you or is it easy to leave it behind? You leave it behind. I mean, you know, people ask this question a lot, and there's so much about acting that's emotional and physical and kind of involves sort of an intimacy. I always say, people forget that you're also dealing with your intellect at the same time, right? We know where the camera is. We have to know because they have to be able to see us.

We know how many steps it takes to get upstairs. We know how to do the physical things for the stage combat. So the duality of it is really fascinating for me, the idea that it involves your heart and your head all of the time. So when you finish it, like for me, it's very, very important that my partner and I feel safe when we're doing something so that we know that we've created this together. And so when you've done it and you've done it successfully, you can walk away and you can leave it behind. You are also in a different world in sirens at the moment. Let's talk about that. That's on Netflix. Everybody who's keeping up now with all of Julianne's projects that are on the go at the moment. You're this charismatic, rich socialite.

Kevin Bacon is in there as well as yours, Megan Fahey, Millie Alcock. And I was wondering what you think about at the moment what is attracting viewers? Because I know Echo Valley is going to be a big hit on the edge of the seat. And then you have this other world that is also in a way, what would I say, that there is an edge of horror perhaps on sides of it. But it's in a very beautiful setting with very rich people. And I think there seems to be an appetite for that as well. How do you see it at the moment, film and TV and what

audiences want? I think people are looking for, I mean I think often they're looking for distraction. I think that people are looking for beauty. I think they want to see beautiful locations. The beach is very popular obviously. People living in a beautiful house by the beach and wearing wonderful clothes, they enjoy that. But then they're also looking for stories about relationships. And they want it to feel, I think they're drawn in by the mystery and by the comedy also.

But this, at the end of the day, ends up being quite a story really about feminism and about choices and about what we think is optimal for us than what turns out to not be successful in terms of our agency and our autonomy. So I really loved what Molly wrote, our showrunner, Molly Smith Metzger. It's marvelous because it seems like a fantasy. It seems like something that everyone's trying to attain, but there's quite a twist at the end. And you realize that a lot of like who Michaela is, you know, my character has been a construct. It's something that she's projecting for others to see.

I'm just thinking, as I think about Michaela Kiki, as she's also known, and also Kate. We have birds featuring, for example, when it comes to Kiki. We have horses really at the centre of Kate's existence with Echo Valley. Is this something that you know already about birds and horses? I love animals. I do. I really love animals. I actually love... People always say that thing, you're not supposed to work with children or animals because they pull focus, but they do. They do in the most wonderful way because they're so alive.

So if you're working with a baby or you're working with a bird, you know, there's a quality of unpredictability about them because they simply are being. So as an actor, it kind of keeps you awake and excited. And I really, really love it. The birds particularly, because they are very unpredictable. But I can imagine.

Is there a learning curve with both of those? You know, so much of it's about relaxation. I do think that people are afraid of birds. They are because we're not often close to them. The same with horses. Horses are really, really big animals. And babies as well, oddly, I think that people have a lot, you know, how do I handle this baby? What do I do? So much of it is about

relaxation and taking, in one case, taking care of the infant, taking, being gentle with the bird, not being afraid, being a relaxed presence so that you don't scare the animal. I love it. I mean, I think you overheard me talking to somebody about how in the middle of a scene I had been talking to this young raptor. He was a teenager, so he still had kind of some downy feathers, but he was quite big. And they took his hood off, and they wanted me to feed him, and he was too anxious to eat.

There was a piece of raw chicken they were supposed to eat. He didn't want to eat that. He was kind of looking around, and I'd been stroking him and talking to him. And anyway, he was kind of gradually relaxing. And then I was doing the scene with Millie and I had my hand out and in the middle of the scene he hopped onto my hand. And I was delighted because finally he felt relaxed. He was like, oh, there's that person. I'll jump on her hand. Your heritage is Scottish. Perhaps giving rise to your red hair and freckles.

Listeners may think you're American, which you are, but you've also taken British citizenship. I read to honor your mother as she was Scottish. Does it feel like home when you're here? You know, yes and no. I mean, we were talking about dual, you know, that feelings of having a dual cultural experience, you know. Featuring two worlds. Yeah. My mother was always very Scottish, even though she immigrated to the United States when she

was 10. She would kind of remind us that we weren't 100% American. And I think that I have an understanding of British culture and Scottish culture that a lot of Americans don't have. And I feel really fortunate for that. On the other hand, when I'm here, I also am aware that I am American. You know, so, but it's nice. I think it's nice to have an awareness of different cultures, to not feel, sometimes when we're rigid in our identity, it prevents us from really being able to see or communicate

with others. So I like the idea that there can be some cultural fluidity as well. Can I say another domestic question, so to speak? I read that you say cleaning is your superpower. It is. I'm very good at it. Tell me more, as your mother might say. I don't know.

It's something that is really, I just know how to do it. I think that when we were younger, my mother gave us, my sister and I, my brother less so because he was less predictable. She gave us a lot of chores and we did them. We always did the dishes, we always cleaned the bathrooms, we did the vacuuming. So it's something that I learned early on and I'm not a very good cook. I don't have a lot of interest in cooking, but I'm a really good cleaner and I can organise a room like Lickety Split. Julianne Moore was talking to Nuala there and Echo Valley is available on Apple TV+.

Now the political focus of debate next week turns to abortion. This is because not one but two amendments are being brought before MPs, both of which could mean, if passed, that women will no longer be prosecuted for terminating a pregnancy in England and Wales. It comes amid concerns that women are being investigated by police on suspicion of illegally ending a pregnancy, including the case of Nicola Packer, who was acquitted last month of charges of unlawfully administering abortion pills at home. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists said that the trial demonstrated just how outdated and harmful current abortion law was and called for reform.

But we should remember that abortion is a controversial topic with strong views on all sides and many would see proposed changes as diluting protections for the unborn child. MPs will have a free vote on the issue. I first spoke to the BBC's health correspondent Nick Trigle who explained the current law on abortion. Of course, abortion is allowed in England and Wales, but only under certain circumstances. It's set out by the 1967 Abortion Act. Now, that requires a woman seeking abortion to get two doctors to agree to it. And even those looking to have an abortion under 24 weeks pregnant may still have to testify that their mental or physical health is at risk. And then those who are over 24 weeks pregnant, abortions are only allowed in exceptional

circumstances if their own life is at significant risk or if the baby will have severe disabilities when it's born. So those are the rules that give women access to abortion services in this country. And there are two amendments due to be debated next week. Let's start with the Labour MP Stella Creasy. What's she looking to change? Well, she's looking to decriminalise women who can face prosecution. Now, women who have an abortion but don't meet the circumstances and rules set out by the Abortion Act 1967, they tend to be prosecuted under a piece of Victorian legislation, the Offences Against the Person Act of 1861. So her amendment is aimed at effectively neutralising that act and prosecutions under that act and another more recent act as well. But her amendment has attracted concerns from abortion providers and other in the field. They're concerned

Stella Creasy's amendment will effectively, as well as neutralizing that Victorian Act, it would rip up the current abortion act they fear and that could reopen a whole debate about abortion. They think the anti-abortion lobby could then move in and that could put women's rights to an abortion at risk. Stella Creasy obviously she doesn't share those concerns but I think we will hear about this during the debate in Parliament next week. And fellow Labour MP Tonya Antoniazze, who I will be speaking to in just a moment, has brought about a second amendment. How does HERS differ?

Yes, again, HERS is aimed at decriminalising abortion, focusing on that Victorian legislation, but the way it's worded, the abortion providers and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists have got behind it. They're urging MPs to vote and debate that one because they think the way it's worded doesn't have any impact on the Abortion Act 1967, which gives women currently a right to access abortion. Abortion providers and others aren't necessarily fans of that abortion act, they think the rules are too onerous, but at the moment they don't want to sort of open up that debate. Of course there's other views on the other side, the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children has said it's against both amendments and a warning that if either of them are passed it could allow abortion up to birth that that could become possible and is not a situation they would want tolerated.

I mentioned briefly that this has come about amid concerns that women are being investigated by police on suspicion of illegally ending a pregnancy. Nicola Packer was recently cleared by a jury of unlawfully administering herself with abortion pills at home during the coronavirus lockdown of 2020. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Yes well we think she's one of six women who've appeared in court in England over the last three years charged with ending or attempting to end their own pregnancy. She was cleared by a jury in May. The 45-year-old was acquitted of unlawfully administering a poison. She took her abortion medication at home in lockdown during November 2020. She was 26 weeks pregnant but had been prescribed the

abortion pills over the phone because of Covid restrictions that were in place at the time. But they're only allowed to be taken at home if a woman is under 10 weeks pregnant. Now because she was 26 weeks she faced prosecution. She claimed she didn't know she was so far along with her pregnancy and as I say the jury in the trial acquitted her. And this is a free vote meaning MPs will not be told how to vote by their party. What are the early indications of whether these will be made law? Well yes it's a free vote. The Tories, Lib Dems and Labour have all promised that their MPs will be able to vote how they want with their own conscience. We often see this when abortion, any ethical medical issue is debated in Parliament, it often does go to a free vote. We understand

it's likely only one of the amendments will be chosen. Both have over hundred backers from other MPs. Tonya Antonazzi's amendment has slightly more so that would suggest at the moment that looks like it's the favorite to to get chosen but we'll have to wait and see until next week. As I mentioned earlier I'm also joined by Tonya Antonazzi, the Labour MP who's tabled one of these amendments. Welcome to Women's Hour Tonya, we heard from Nick there. What are you hoping this amendment will lead to? I'm hoping that this amendment will lead to no more Nicola Packers because you know we have to take women out of the criminal system and I do not believe

that any woman intentionally would put themselves in that situation having gone to the court and sat through some of the proceedings and met Nicola, I've been really taken aback by how unfit for purpose the law is and how women are being treated and we have seen an increase in women that have been investigated by the police. You know, we believe there are over a hundred, six have been prosecuted and one has been jailed. You know, there are multiple women still in the criminal system and it is just not in the public interest to do this. So that is what it's quite a simple amendment to the Crime and Policing

Bill which I hope will be selected by the Speaker on Tuesday. We are in a situation which you know it's untenable at the moment that women are being treated like this in 2025 and having met Nicola I just feel that this is the right thing to do. What led you to decide to bring this? Was it meeting Nicola? It was meeting Nicola but it was previous to that because Diana Johnson put down a very well the same amendment to the Crime and Policing Bill last year. And I had signed her amendment, but obviously the Crime and Policing Bill fell because we had a general election. So this is a sector wide supported amendment.

It's also supported by across the house. And I think it's really important that we right this wrong now. This is not touching on any changes to abortion law. This is not changing the rules. And to be honest with you, Anita, I've been a bit quite, you know, I was brought up a Catholic, I know how precious life is.

I had to sit through the VHS of videos of abortion and euthanasia growing up and being in school and I think that has really shaped my view as an adult in how women's, our bodily choices are ours to make but this isn't touching on any abortion law, it changes nothing. It only decriminalises women. Could you explain to some of the voting public how two female MPs have brought about the same issue, but are differing? I wonder if there was a conversation between yourself and Stella Creasy or how do you feel about her amendment and the controversies around it? I think that, look, the issue, look, we both come from the same place. However, my amendment is a very neat amendment that will change the law immediately for women.

And also the issue with NC20, which is Stella's amendment, is that there are lots of unintended consequences that could happen and it will impact on abortion law and the service providers do not need to be in a place where they don't know what's going to happen. They need that clarity. So while many of the things in Stella's amendment I support, it's not appropriate for now in the crime and policing bill. I was talking to Tonya Antonietzzi and to Nick Trigle and we will of course keep across developments on this next week. Next is an interview that will have details that you may find upsetting. For anyone affected

by this story or suicide, there are details of action lines on our website. I want to talk about Alice Figueiredo, who died in 2015 when she was just 22 years old. A former head girl, a member of the Youth Parliament and a music lover, she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and an eating disorder as a teenager. While Alice was being treated at a mental health unit at Goodmay's Hospital in Ilford, East London, she took her own life. Again, some of the following details are difficult to hear. In the five months leading up to her death, Alice attempted suicide using plastic or bin bags on 18 occasions. The unit had acknowledged the risk of keeping bin bags on the ward and had removed

them from patients' bedrooms, but not from communal toilets, despite warnings from Alice's family. Sadly, on 7 July 2015, Alice took her own life in a communal toilet. Now, nearly ten years after her death, a jury at the Old Bailey has found the North East London NHS Trust and the ward manager guilty of health and safety failings, with not enough done to prevent Alice's death. However, the trust was cleared of corporate manslaughter and the ward manager was cleared of gross negligence manslaughter. Getting this verdict has been a 10-year struggle for Alice's family. On Wednesday, Nuala spoke to Jane Figueredo to talk about the impact this fight has had on them.

I think it's still sinking in. We're still sort of taking stock of how we feel. Because we have attended the entire trial every single day and travelled the journey of the trial, we have seen how things have unfolded and we realized it was quite possible for the verdict to go in any number of directions. So we were prepared for whatever verdict came. And is the feeling you have of justice? Yes, I mean yes, yes actually I mean, these are serious criminal convictions for health

and safety. I doubt whether there are that many of them that have happened of this magnitude. It doesn't happen lightly that trusts or members of staff are investigated on this level and on this scale. On one level, there's a disappointment for everybody concerned, I think, of not getting the higher charges because in our opinion, and probably the opinion of the police and the CPS, there was obviously a case very carefully built over many years and a consideration that you could reach that threshold with the evidence that was had. But of course how things then play out in court is very different. It has a life of its own once it starts and you've got two defence parties who are obviously making their arguments and using whatever information to help them

defend their clients and of course the jury have to try to discern the truth amidst all of that. And we will speak about what led to that verdict in a moment, but I know it's really important to you, Jane, that people know what Alice was like when she was living, your daughter. Yes. So tell me a little bit about her. Alice had, we often use words like luminous, that she had a luminous spirit about her. She was a very radiant sort of person. She

was really a passionate, dynamic character. She was not somebody who you would ever miss in a room, you know. She had a lot of personality. She had an amazingly sharp sense of humour. She was always having us laughing in stitches and things, so she was very, very funny. She was very creative. She loved the creative arts. Art was probably her greatest passion actually, she even when she wasn't well, the one thing she would keep doing when she was depressed would be painting and drawing and that for her was her main, often the main therapy for her really. But she was also somebody who championed causes and would advocate for other people and was a great friend to many people.

I mean, after she died, we were actually, we knew she had a lot of really good friends, but we were surprised by the number of people who described her as their best friend. That must have been comforting in some ways. It was in keeping with a very warm, very kind, very generous sort of person with her time, and in every way really, very thoughtful. And she put herself out for people a lot. I'm going to go back to 2015. You mentioned Unwell, Alice was suffering from bipolar disorder, also an eating disorder. And at that time in 2015 you

had to make a decision, as her mother, to get her help in the form of hospitalisation. Was that a difficult decision? Well actually, it wasn't quite how it did happen on that occasion. She, Alice, had a number of admissions to different hospitals, including both to acute psychiatric hospitals from CAMHS when she was about 15 years old was the first time. For the mental health provider for children. That's right yes but she and also to this particular ward since 2012 she had been admitted on several occasions and she'd also been to eating disorder units a few times as well so she

had had quite a lot of inpatient treatment and she had a community psychiatric nurse and community recovery team looking after her and actually it was them that decided to take her to hospital on that occasion. We didn't actually know that had happened until we got a phone call from the hospital on the evening she'd been taken there. We knew she was struggling, but actually it was really... at that moment it was actually unexpected. I wasn't expecting to hear that she'd been admitted to hospital, so we were quite distressed and upset for her at that time because we knew she was trying very hard.

You were a chaplain to the Mental Health Trust that she was under and you would visit Alice every day is my understanding. Yes. How concerned were you about her at that point? Well yes in the role of my chaplaincy I was working in other hospital units so I was largely working just to make the distinction I wasn't a chaplain in that particular hospital. I visited her almost every day and on this particular admission we did feel very disturbed very early on actually by the atmosphere on the ward. We became concerned about safety quite early on. There was a much higher number of agency staff coming onto the ward than we'd previously seen.

So a more temporary type of worker perhaps? Oh yes, a lot of temporary staff were coming on and off and really almost the point you just didn't know who they were. She went in on 13th February and the night of the 15th she was placed on one-to-one observations and that continued until the beginning of June in fact one-to-one. A lot of the time she wasn't getting time on those observations as regularly as she should do according to the trust's own observation policies with staff who knew her well and who knew what helped her, who knew her background and from that ward, you know. She was with a lot of people who didn't know her at all and also didn't, I have to say, didn't seem particularly well trained or to understand

their own duties and would even be leaving her unattended. So that and that's how she mostly she came to harm because she was left unattended. You did get a call to hear that she had attempted to take her life and that she was gravely ill. It must be another, I can't even get the correct word, it's not distressing, I'm sure it's just so tumultuous and gut-wrenching at that point. What do you remember of that time? On the night of her death, yes. Well, actually we'd gone to bed and it was after one o'clock in the morning and I had seen Alice that day, I'd gone to ward round, I'd seen her at mid-day,

it was the last time I'd actually seen her. And she'd phoned me once or twice during the day and the last time she phoned me was at 10.15 that night and I didn't pick up on anything particularly that... Like that she was gravely ill? Not at that moment, no. She asked me to bring some snacks in for her, I think, on the phone call. What happened was the police knocked on our door, I mean, literally there was a knock on the door just after 1.15 and around that time and I saw blue lights flashing outside the window, which really sort of stuck with me for a long time afterwards actually, and then they just said to us, you need to get in the car straight away. I didn't even take a bag, anything with me just got in the car

and they literally drove us at break next they blue lighted us It's about I think it's probably about six miles or something from where we were living to the A&E and in that journey I was It was very traumatizing because I knew I was saying to them I was asking them questions, but they weren't answering my questions. So I mean it was just utterly traumatic I can't even find the words to describe it. I couldn't articulate the degree of pain that of the night she actually died. The only way I could describe it

afterwards was like it was like having every bone in your body broken but on an emotional level. The shock and the pain was just that bad. I think that's an incredibly eloquent way to describe it. So we rushed into taking into one of these relative rooms and sort of warned that Alice was, you know, sort of in a critical condition and taken through to her in recess and it really was only a matter of moments before they basically took her off the support she was on and we didn't even have time to take in all of that or even ask questions particularly or it just happened really quickly and it was just utterly devastating. I'm so sorry for your loss and you know when

you speak to me now I can feel how fresh it is I'm sure the listeners will as well yeah but this has been a 10-year struggle to get to the verdict that you have. How would you describe the past decade about getting to this point and some of the impact it's had on you and your family? You do have two other daughters I should say and grandchildren as well. And your husband, Alice's stepfather, Max. Yes. I would describe it as a relentless uphill slog the whole way, where we've tried from the very outset starting asking questions, expecting initially,

naively I would now say, people to do the right thing, as you would say, and be honest and open and conduct really thorough investigation to act on concerns that we put to them, including in writing from the admission that we raised. But my understanding as well that you sold your house. Eventually we did, yes, because Zohalis died in July 2015 and we set about immediately trying to look into things, asking questions. When we saw the trust internal serious investigation report, we went off and decided to write our own one because we were so appalled really by the way, the tone and manner of the contents

of that report that we wanted to tell our side of things that we knew. And it went on like that where we were talking to regulators such as the CQC, the CCGs, you know, and asking questions, even the MC, all the regulators you can think of. And having difficulty, you know, making progress with that and hitting brick walls and finding there was a kind of... Well, when I look back at it now, I can only be honest and say it was... I would describe it as some of it is collusive in a culture of cover-up but didn't they didn't really take things as serious as they should have done even things I put to them in writing were ignored in responses so in 2018 we both gave up our jobs because the emotional toll of trying to do all these things it is emotionally exhausting and demanding it's a full-time job and it was a full time. It's a full-time job. And it

was a full-time, it was literally a full-time job. So then that was sort of in the summer to the autumn that we both gave our jobs up in 2018 and then early in 2019 we sold our house that we were living in at the time that Alice died and basically for the next several years literally lived on the proceeds of part of the sale of our house really. During this trial for the last seven half months we've literally lived out of suitcases so in London or Birmingham or we haven't had a base as such. And not having that stability? It's logistically challenging you know having to work out

what you need each day, what you need for the next day and where you're going to stay. Obviously being in London, the costs and such like go up and so we've had to move around a bit more often, you know, between hotels. And I know because speaking to you just before we came on air, that's like a day to day decision on where you will be. Yes, I mean, the last few weeks we probably moved four or five times a week between different hotels. Also, for the fact that the jury were deliberating, they deliberated for nearly two months altogether.

I thought it was going to be probably a nine-week trial initially, possibly 12. You know, we thought it started at the end of October. It could end sort of in January. I think the jury themselves thought as well they weren't expecting to be there for what was seven and a half months. This is only the second time an NHS trust has faced a corporate manslaughter charge and I'm sure there be lots of you know people listening who have loved ones that perhaps are in care as well and they may be very concerned while listening to you. Do you have any advice for them as you reflect back on the time? Well I would be very

vigilant as we tried, we believed we were being vigilant and we did write to the for example during Alice's admission we wrote to the ward on numerous occasions and I even warned them that we were worried that Alice would lose her life and that she had nearly lost her life on, I expressed that to them in a written form after a particular occasion. And it's shocking to think that she still did lose her life

despite raising those concerns and putting that to them verbally, went visiting on the phone, in writing several times, much more than we'd ever had to do in any other admission or any other hospital at all, so it was quite alarming. But if you are concerned, I think you do need to, I would say, don't just raise it in the ward, but go beyond as well. I do want to read a statement from the Trust in question. They say, our thoughts are with Alice's family and loved ones who lost her at such a young age. We

extend our deepest sympathy for the pain and heartbreak they've suffered over the past 10 years. We will reflect on the verdict and its implications both for the Trust and mental health provision more broadly as we continue to work to develop services for the communities we serve. Does it bring you any peace now Jane? Do you feel that you can stop after the past decade? We'll need to take a bit of time to recover just from going through the trial but we won't be stopping. We'll be, you know, doing what we can to raise awareness, to join in with other people perhaps who are

campaigning on various things. I doubt whether we'll literally stop completely being concerned and raising issues. I mean, the words you've just read from the Trust, I find, they ring very hollow for us, the words you've just read. They talk about sympathy, they talk about condolences, but in ten years we haven't had a formal apology. So it's all... Is that what you're looking for? Well, I'm just making the point of an apology. But it now is a little too too late really, an apology.

They might try to do that, but again it would be only because of result of what's happened and only in my opinion a PR exercise if they did do that because they've had 10 years to make an apology and haven't done so. Jane Figueredo speaking to Noola there. And if you've been affected by anything you heard in that conversation there are links on the Woman's Hour website. And remember if you can't join us live during the week to hear the program then you can listen back to us anytime on BBC Sounds where it's absolutely free. Now on to running 100 kilometres when postpartum and breastfeeding. Stephanie Case is a mum, a

human rights lawyer and now an ultra marathon winner. Otherwise known as the ultra runner girl on social media, she made headlines, went viral and stunned race officials when she finished in first place in the women's section of the Snowdonia Ultra Trial just six months after giving birth. This was her first race in three years and despite starting in the last wave and breastfeeding her daughter at aid stations, she won. She told Nuala how shocked she was to hear she'd come first. It was a huge surprise for me because I had started 30 minutes behind the race leaders. I actually had no idea where I was in the pack and so when I finished this race after almost 17 hours, I was quite happy with myself. I thought I had finished the race, my first race back. And

when I crossed the line, the race organizers said, hold on, we're checking the chip time, but we think you might have won. And when they checked that I had actually had the fastest time, I had to go back and recross the finish line so that I could officially break the tape recross the finish line so that I could officially break the tape. And the time was for those of us who haven't ran 100 kilometers? It was just under 17 hours, I think 16 hours and 53 minutes or something. So then let's get to the breastfeeding part. What was it? The 20k mark, the 50k mark that

your partner brought Pepper for a feed? So runners in the 100k race were allowed assistance at the 20km and the 80km checkpoints. But I knew that that 60km gap would be quite a long time for me to go without being able to breastfeed my daughter. So I asked the race organizers if I could have special permission not to receive assistance, but to provide assistance to my daughter. So I asked the race organizers if I could have special permission not to receive assistance but to provide assistance to my daughter. So John, my partner was able to bring Pepper to three aid stations for me. Now some might be wondering why? Why did you do this? For me running is a huge part of my identity. It's a way that I deal with stress, that I understand myself, how I move through the

world. And I had taken a three-year gap in competition because I had gone through multiple pregnancy losses, multiple rounds of failed IVF. And during that time, people had questioned whether running was partly the cause of my infertility issues and that really changed my relationship with running. There's no science to say that there's any connection between that but I think we are prone to blaming ourselves and I felt a lot of guilt and worry about whether I could pursue my running and pursue my goal of

becoming a mom. So when I signed up for this race in Wales, it was more than just a competition for me. It was a way for me to regain that connection with who I was as a person. We go through such an incredible transformation as women when we become new mothers, physically, mentally. And through all of that change, it was so comforting to be able to know that that runner part of me had not left. It might have gone to sleep for a few years, but to reconnect with that identity as a runner and know that I can still do this, I can still compete. And not only compete, I can still win. That was massive for me, for my mental health, my physical health, and for my path as a mom.

And I know your work is as a human rights lawyer for the United Nations. So that means working in war zones around the world. And you mentioned that some were blaming your running for miscarriages, but others also blamed your job, is my understanding. Yes. So after my first miscarriage, when that seed of doubt was planted in my head about the connection with running, I really pulled back from the sport. And that was my way that I dealt with stress. So then when I had my second miscarriage, people questioned, oh, it must be your job. It's the stress of your job. And so I felt like I couldn't win because I had lost my coping mechanism to deal with the stress.

And I think it just highlights how we go through these issues of pregnancy loss, of infertility. We go through it in a sense of isolation, without guidance, without proper support, and often in silence. Even in 2025, we're not talking about these issues enough. The fact that we still have this convention that we don't tell people we're pregnant until the second trimester, just in case something bad happens, that only guarantees that if you have

a problem with your pregnancy, you will be going through it without the proper support that you need. So it was a really dark time. I'm so glad for you that you had your little girl Pepper. But I suppose some might be thinking, Stephanie, I'm sure you've heard this as well, OK, human rights lawyer running the ultramarathon and winning. That's such a wonderful role model for loads. Or some people talking about impossible expectations of a new mom.

Absolutely. There were two sets of reactions really to this story that went surprisingly viral. The first set of reactions were from new moms or women in general who were so excited to see that we don't have to give up our identities, we don't have to give up our dreams when we become moms. And I think the story validated that it's possible with the right support because the second group of responses, and it was a minority but a strong minority, were from exhausted moms who saw this as really contributing to set this impossible standard. Not that we can have it all, but that we have to do it all. I have a lot of empathy for that and I think it signals that we need to provide a lot more support to new moms. We need to

reduce the judgment and the scrutiny that we have around how moms should be navigating motherhood because if you're trying your best whether you're running a race or not that is the best thing that you can do. Let us talk about some of the gory details of running a 100k race when you're just postpartum. Tell us all. Well I've done a lot of, been lucky to do a lot of pelvic floor rehabilitation. When I got to 95 kilometres, I really was feeling nauseous from taking in all of these calories, because it was not just to feel me, it was to make sure that I had enough fuel for pepper as well.

So that's quite hard on the stomach. So at 95 kilometers I really was quite nauseous, was dry heaving quite a lot and that's when my pelvic floor came out and I lost all blood control. But you know, it happens and this is the great thing about ultra marathon races. They mimic life, right? Being a new mum is not easy. It doesn't look pretty. We can multitask all we want,

but sometimes things don't go right and we just have to roll with it. Is she a superhuman or is she just a woman? Stephanie Case. Now, The Safekeep by Jael van der Vouden tells the story of Isabel and Ava. Set in the Netherlands in the 1960s, these two women are both struggling to find their place in a society that isn't yet modern but does not want to reflect on the horrors

of the Second World War. Add into the mix a remote country house and simmering sexual tension and the result is a novel that's been hugely critically acclaimed and has been shortlisted for the Booker and was named, two days ago, the winner of the Women's Prize for Fiction. Well, Yale joined me in the studio on Thursday and I asked her what it's like to get these nominations for her debut novel. It feels quite unreal. Most of the time it doesn't quite land. I think my friend at one point was like, you know, look at you, glamorous life. And as she was texting this, I was in a train that was entirely packed

and everybody had to stand and it was summer and you know, I was standing next to somebody with their arms up and my face was entirely in their armpits. And I was like, I think as long as I'm breathing in somebody else's armpit hair, now I am not yet that glamorous. But to answer your question, it's absolutely a dream and unreal. And the safe keep, let's talk about it, looks at a generation of people who were children during the war and despite being affected by it, they don't seem to want to reflect on what happened during those days and the aftermath. So why did you want to explore their experience and at that point of Dutch history? Give us some

context of the book. It's a topic that I'm interested in through my academic background and through also my own personal background but also it is the environment that I grew up in. I mean I grew up in the late 80s and 90s in the east of the country. So it's definitely not the 60s. But there's definitely that air of people know privately and do not discuss publicly. It's always stayed with me, those kinds of narratives

that people have glimpsed at and then would never be discussed at dinner tables or on television or in novels that I'd read, but they seem to exist sort of under the surface and I thought it would be fascinating to bring them to the surface. Isabel, the central character of your book, absolutely fascinated by this woman and her difficult relationship with people. What was it like to explore a character that repressed? Tell us about...

Delightful. Tell us about her. I mean, all the characters are incredible in this, but Isabelle particularly. It was so fun. I mean, I've always adored a repressed character. Why? I'm not repressed at all myself.

It frustrates me when I... when we never find out what is being repressed. I think repression often is played out for laughs, but I always wonder what's beneath, you know, what is the thing that has created this cocoon? That's the one thing, it's very fun to crack it open. I always describe Isabel as like cracking her open like the spine of a novel, of a book. Who is she? Tell us about Isabel.

She, so we've mentioned the word repressed several times. She's quite neurotic. So, she's inherited her mother's home, and her entire life is basically keeping this house in order, keeping it clean, going to the grocers. She has a routine, and that is everything that keeps her going. She doesn't have anything beyond that. No friends, no hobbies, no lovers, God forbid. And this is how she basically makes it through the day, through her life. And then once upon a day, Eva turns up, her brother's new girlfriend, who she despises, and Eva is the antithesis of Isabel, and has no respect for routine or cleanliness. Yeah, Isabel hates her and

Ava, she unravels the very carefully constructed life that Isabel has created for herself. Yes, and her brother says she has to stay here while I disappear for a bit. She doesn't want to, but she's forced to live with Ava. In the acknowledgments, you also thank people for not talking to you about Chapter 10. Specifically my family, yes. Why? That's the sexy chapter, yeah. There's a lot of sex in the book.

Can we talk about how you approached writing such involved sex scenes? It's an interesting question because I've had the pleasure of talking about this several times. And each time it takes me by surprise this question of the chapter on its own, because I see it very much as an integral part of the novel. Yeah, so there was definitely a buildup. There's so much sexual tension in the book. Exactly. And writing the sex scenes wasn't much different than writing any other scenes because you're

already, from the first page, right, Isabel's relationship to her own body is established as quite a contentious one. Whenever she has a thought, she cuts it off. Whenever she feels an emotion, she starts pinching the back of her hand. And she's very locked within her body. And then Eva comes in and we have, of course, this antagonism between the characters, but the antagonism becomes something physical in the sense that Isabelle wants to make everything quiet in a physical way. I think if she could strangle Ava, she would. If she could put a hand over her mouth, she would. What I've tried to do with

every single one of those scenes is imbue it with a sense of eros, a sense of tension through the erotic. So the erotic is there in the language and I mean it in a very sort of Esther Perelian way where it's not necessarily erotic in this directly sexy way but rather this idea of a heightened sensibility, a heightened tactile way of writing. And so by the time that you get to the sex scenes, it's supposed to feel like a natural extension of what has come before. It does. There are a few gay characters in the book. Isabel's brother, Hendrik.

Why is he free to explore sexuality in a way that she isn't? I think that there's something occasionally that can be quite invisible about women's desire. And this is obviously changing, right? Thank you, Gillian Anderson, for your novel, for your book, for your collection, right? But for me growing up, when I was reading about desire, and I did have, I had a friend and we would both would read through books and look for the books that had spice in it, as the kids say these days, and then exchange them and we'd read them and be like, oh, that this book has some sex in it. And it would always be through a male lens and it would

always be about man's desire. And so when I came to understand desire for myself in my own body, man's desire. And so when I came to understand desire for myself in my own body, I would have to imagine myself through a masculine lens in order to do that. And it was very confusing and very sort of, it also created a complicated relationship for myself with my own desire and who I thought I was or wasn't. When I started looking for queer novels, the desire wasn't always center stage. It was either misery or the grand coming out story. And I desperately wanted the yearning and the love to get that central space. And that's what I was trying to do really with this novel. But to answer your question, Hendrik, right? I wanted to create the character of

Hendrik, you know, to create that contrast because he's gay and he's quite open about this with Isabelle and free, and yet he cannot imagine his sister having a desire like that. He sees her as a reproduction of her mother, as an extension of that, of heteronormativity and closed mindedness. And so she's, even to the person who's closest to her, she's still invisible. How would reading more lesbian love stories have affected you as a young person? If I had the chance? Yeah.

Well, Lord knows. I might have arrived where I am today much earlier. Yeah, it's hard to say. But also I'm very grateful for the journey that I had because I think it's made my approach to writing desire a more heightened one, let's put it like that. Yes. Can I talk a bit about the process of writing it? Of course. It, my favourite part. From the idea to actually it being out, did you have a place to write? Did you wake up every morning? How did this book, how was it born?

I was writing another novel, so this one was my side piece. I didn't tell anyone. The sexy side piece. I was quite devoted and loyal to the first novel. And so this one had to be secret to myself and to everyone else. But the way I did it for the first, I think, five months is I plotted like a mad woman. So it started out with a lot of flashcards and notes and an entire notebook dedicated to writing out little scenes.

And when I did start writing, I had such a, I'd already spent five months in that world, in the scaffolding of it, in the sort of the glimpses of it here. It was, it was existed like a trailer to a movie in my head. And then I had to actually create the movie. And because I'd created such a scaffold, such a framework, by the time I started writing, it basically just rolled out within, I think it took me six months. And I was working, I was teaching in Maastricht and I lived in Utrecht. That's a two hour train ride. So I wrote a majority of this book on the train to and back from work. Incredible. I was talking to Yael van der Voden about her book, The Safekeep, winner of this year's Women's Prize for Fiction. That's it from me, but do join Nuala on Monday when we'll be discussing how old is too old to become a parent.

BBC journalist Sancia Berg joins us to discuss the recent cases of older couples becoming parents via surrogacy. That's coming up on Monday, but that's all from me. Do enjoy the rest of your weekend.