Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Juliet open letter, Vogue’s Chioma Nnadi, Female Psychopath

Episode Date: April 13, 2024

This week, it was announced that 883 actors, writers, comedians and creatives had signed an open letter in support of Francesca Amewudah-Rivers, the star in a new production of Romeo & Juliet, due to run in London's West End next month. The open letter came after a statement was published by the Jamie Lloyd Company, "Following the announcement of our Romeo & Juliet cast, there has been a barrage of deplorable racial abuse online directed towards a member of our company..." It was co-authored by actor Susan Wokoma who told us about the open letter.We hear from the new head of British Vogue Chioma Nnadi, a London born, fashion journalist, podcaster and the first black woman to lead the title.We hear the stories of women living in a women’s refuge in London.Do you remember our segment on female psychopaths? We hear from one woman who has been officially diagnosed with the condition, M.E Thomas.The pioneering feminist, journalist and activist Gloria Steinem made a name for herself in the 1960s and 70s through her journalism, which included going undercover at the New York Playboy Club to expose exploitative working conditions. She co-founded the Women's Action Alliance and in 1972 she co-founded Ms Magazine, putting conversations about gender equality, reproductive rights and social justice in the spotlight, and bringing the issues of the women's rights movement into the mainstream. Gloria has just celebrated her 90th birthday and tells us about the current state of reproductive rights in the US, the importance of community and hosting her own women's talking circle.Could we be happier and more successful if we acted like toddlers? Dr Hasan Merali, Paediatric emergency medicine physician, Associate Professor at McMaster University and author of Sleep Well, Take Risks, Squish the Peas, tells us what we can learn about self-improvement from toddlers.And we have music from the singer songwriter Rebecca Ferguson.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani, featuring all the best bits of the week just gone. Well, as many as we can fit into an hour. In a moment, we'll hear from Susan Wacoma on why more than 800 creatives have signed an open letter in support of actor Francesca Amawuda-Rivers. We have Vogue's new head of editorial content, Choma Nardi, on the importance of fashion.

My appearance is what keeps my mood up. It's what keeps me happy. It's what inspires me. I think a lot of women in sort of high profile positions, they don't want to be questioned about what they wear. And I completely understand it. But there are women who enjoy expressing themselves through their clothing. We'll hear from a woman who calls herself a psychopath. In fact, when tested by a university expert in Texas, she scored 99 percent under current psychopathy criteria. And we'll discuss why behaving like a toddler could make your life better, plus music from the glorious Rebecca Ferguson. First, when it comes to parts in plays or films or TV dramas, who's allowed to play the roles? In theory, anyone, right? It's drama.

But when it was announced that Francesca and Wuda Rivers would star as Juliet in the new production of Romeo and Juliet opposite Tom Holland in the West End, the racist floodgates opened. Not the first time some people have a problem with a black woman in a role. However, this time in response, 883 actors, writers, comedians and creatives have signed an open letter in support of Francesca. This open letter came after a statement last Friday published by the Jamie Lloyd Company, which said, following the announcement of our Romeo and Juliet cast, there's been a barrage of deplorable racial abuse online directed towards a member of our company. Bullying and harassment have no place online in our industry or in our wider communities. Our rehearsal room is full of joy, compassion and kindness.

Well, the open letter was co-authored by actors Susan Wacoma and writer Somalia Seaton. It read, too many times black performers, particularly black actresses, are left on their own to face the storm of online abuse after committing the audacious crime of simply booking a job. Many who signed are women of colour in the industry, including Marianne Jean-Baptiste, Lashana Lynch and Sheila Atim, as well as those recently in the Woman's Hour studio, Vivian Apara and Ambika Mod. Well, I spoke to Susan Wacoma. She's best known for her roles as Edith in Enola Holmes, Cynthia in Michaela Cole's Chewingham. She made her film debut in Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's Half a Yellow Sun and my favourite, Sergeant Mabel Wisbech in Year of the Rabbit.

She told me why they decided to write the letter. To be perfectly honest with you, I was, alongside many people, thrilled for Francesca. I've met Francesca once, an amazing actress, an amazing musician, a really young, bright star. And you get behind these announcements. And so, like many people, sent my congratulations and then didn't think anything of it.

And then I saw the statement from Jamie Lloyd Company and then that's when I read The Abuse which is online freely to read and to be perfectly honest like many other performers because we talk I was really triggered and I was so upset and we all understand that Francesca and when it's happened to us is that you read that stuff and you still have to go to work so knowing that Francesca is in the rehearsal room at the moment trying to formulate this performance with her colleagues and I and Somalia who's a dear friend of mine we just felt the deep need to reach out to her and be loud and that the love and solidarity towards her has to be louder than the abuse and so we thought about doing an open letter, something that's been done many times before.

And we thought they wanted it to be predominantly black actresses because there's a certain level of visibility that comes with being an actor. And so we just wanted people who understood not just the racist abuse, but the misogyny. And there's an intersection of that, which then particularly with a role like Juliet is who is seen as somebody who could be playing a young lover in in a play which is just

audacious that there's any kind of remit to that and so we wanted to centre Francesca we wanted to centre other black actresses who had been triggered by this and just say that we see you we're with you and we love you in your open letter you say that the online abuse was a too familiar story that many of us visible black dark-skinned performers have experienced the racist and misogynistic abuse directed at such a sweet soul has been too much to bear you weren't surprised no not even remotely i think that there's always this i i have this fear whenever I see any black performer when they're announced in anything that's big of this happening. And I think the first time I witnessed it online was when Leslie Jones, who was on SNL, was announced as part of the cast of Ghostbusters. Everybody had like an issue with it because it's all women, whatever. But I saw in real time, because I used to ask when I used to be on Twitter,

I saw it in real time, the abuse that she got. And it's disproportionate. It makes no sense. And it was predominantly targeted at her and it was racial and it was sexist. And ever since then, I think for me and a lot of performers, it's logged in our heads of, yeah, we want to back you when you get these announcements. But we're so scared.

And if we have to do the extra work of being careful and watchful and mindful, we need our employers to do that. We need our agents to be clear about what they have in place to look after her and make sure that she can give an amazing performance, which we know she will. But it doesn't need to be on top of everything else. You have a very successful career. A name check, some of the things that you've been in, and the list is much longer than that, and you're going to go on to have a huge career ahead of you

because you're so talented and gifted. But tell us how much it takes for you to be able to go out there and perform and some of the backlash that you've had and your own experience. Yeah, I mean, I did a show with a big streamer a few years ago, very excited by it. I had a really good time making it. And then about a month after it launched,

just racist abuse under pictures on my Instagram, the M word, some other, like there was, so it's hard to talk about. There was a, there was, yeah, awful, awful things that were on there. You don't have, you don't have to repeat it.

No, no, that's all right. No, I'm not, I'm also not going to repeat it as well, but there was a rape threat as well. And,

and so I went to the police because that's what you do. And, and it was me and another actor in the show, who's a South Asian actress, and went to the police. And I, you know, the initiative was, my agency were amazing and supportive. And I went to one of the producers of this streamer and I said, look, we are facing this abuse.

And we got on the phone and we talked about it. And there was talk of like a statement. There was talk of, because what happens is, especially when you're doing, you know, the Romeo and Juliet is different. It's a play. But this is a TV show of because what happens is especially when you're doing you know the Romeo and Juliet is different it's a play but this is a tv show and what happens a lot when you're an actor is that you're given things called assets so these are things to post online to promote the show at this time all that stuff and um and so if they want you

to engage on social media I feel like there should at least be a way that you are able to report this to meta or whoever that doesn't necessarily mean that you're wait you're up at all hours doing it yourself so that's the conversation that was started because that's another thing that you have to do yes exactly it's another thing on top of like the work yeah and and so there was all these big promises made and then i never heard from the streamer again ever to this day and then that police investigation carried on for months afterwards and that was i was left to deal with that so investigation carried on for months afterwards and that was I was left to deal with that so you're being punished again yeah and so listen I have an

amazing support system and what we've done with the letter is what happened to me privately with a lot of my friends and and so I was able to work through that but it what it takes chunks out of you and it makes you scared and there's a there's a quote by tony morrison where she says that racism is a distraction it's a distraction from your work and it does distract you and it does affect the choices you make because you're scared of being visible it affects you it affects your choices but also mental health oh complete oh gosh without and and that's what this petition is asking for, is what are the things in place?

Because this is the world we live in. We want to believe that it's not everyone and it's a very loud minority, but they're there and they are loud and it affects you. So what are the things in place? If we have to think about all the different steps before we take a job, our employers must do the same. And you mentioned in the letter misogynoir because when

the example you gave of the female cast of um ghostbusters but it was uh the black actress that got the brunt of it yeah yeah and and that is something that's also why we wanted the signatories to be predominantly black women um because it's it's a special it's a special level of depravity that can come about from that and and knowing that other people get it because you you're often gaslit you're often sort of made to think it's not a big deal just skirt over it it's fine but actually it's serious but also it's you know joy is a form of resistance and this isn't to say like we're just having a good time and we're just you know no matter what happens to us it's it's naming the pain so that you can heal from it because you have to name it first and then going we are all

behind you and centering francesca and centering us because if other people won't we must how important is the solidarity? And the public show of it? Yeah, I mean, yes. So it's difficult, isn't it? Because I think that a lot of the traction that's happened with the letter is as a result of having a big star like Tom Holland. That's not lost on us. Would it have had this much traction if it was somebody else or another show? Probably not.

But it's all about the loudness of solidarity. So the fact that it's reached so many people, we have Viola Davis post about it as well, and lots of older generation actors, which I think is important to know that as a young actor, you can sometimes feel like you're battling it all on your own. But to know you're from something, you come from a history, you come from a lineage I

think is important and I really hope that Fran feels it I have to say you know your writing of this letter is a I've when I was reading it I thought this is women coming together saying no not for the next generation no we can't Somalia actually says something all the time to me she always says the babies are watching the young ones are watching always says it all the time and that was actually the thing that came into my mind that made me reach out to Somali and say I think we should do this because they're watching and we have to make them you know yes it's been publicized it's done all of that but that's 883 names that Francesca or anybody else can look up and go, hi, I have a question. I was talking to Susan Wakoma there.

Now, for fashion lovers, Vogue has long been the Bible for more than 100 years. When Edward Ennifil announced he would be stepping down as the editor-in-chief of British Vogue last year, all eyes were on who his successor might be. Step up, Choma Nadi, a London-born fashion journalist, previously head of Vogue's digital arm, who's more of a fan of trainers than stilettos.

More of that later. She was named Vogue's new head of editorial content and her first issue hit shelves last month, featuring singer FKA Twigs sat atop a black cab on the cover. So how has it been settling into her new role? It's been a real whirlwind six months. I just feel like my feet are just literally touching the ground now. It's been so fun. It's been so nice to be back in London.

And I think, you know, I had big shoes to fill, so I was definitely... I came with a bit of trepidation, but it's been really fun been really fun and I think I get to sort of discover the UK and London again in a way like you know like a bright-eyed child you know rediscovering the culture um I went out last night to see Cabaret Cara Delevingne in Cabaret which was so fun and the theater scene here in the art scene and yeah it's been it's been really fun I should say and I was only cutting to say this because I didn't say it,

that you spent many years in New York. Yeah. And you're from actually very close to this BBC studio where you grew up. Yeah, I'm like five minutes from here. That's where I grew up, yeah. So Londoner born and bred in terms of the central bit of it and seeing all that world around you,

but been in New York for many years. Who's more stylish? Oh, Londoners. Easily, easily. My mum wouldn't even visit me after a while. She's like, oh, there's no people watching. There's nothing to see there. I just, I like the sort of personality, the quirkiness,

the sort of British eccentricity that you see here that maybe you don't see in other places. And I think it's no surprise that so many creative directors at these big fashion houses are from the UK, are educated here. We have some of the best fashion colleges in the world. You know, when I think about Central Saint Martins, yeah, it's just legendary. So it's nice to be back home. There are many messages coming in.

I was asking people about their style and whether they have a uniform, whether they care or not. I mean, this is quite a striking one here. There's a real power in appearing unattractive. No mixed messages, no self-consciousness. Be clean and dress in an appropriate way for the environment. But otherwise, don't give your appearance another thought. I think that might be slightly foreign to me. My appearance is what keeps my mood up. It's what keeps me happy. It's what inspires me. So but yeah, I totally understand that. And I think a lot of a lot I think a lot of women in sort of high profile positions, they don't want to be questioned about what they wear. And I completely understand it. But there are women who enjoy expressing themselves through their clothing. Oh, yeah, we have we have many coming in. I just thought I'd start with a provocative one. Why not? And for you, taking up this top job, I mean, people do have a bit of an image

of the Vogue editor, don't they? Because of Devil Wears Prada, it did have a bit of an impact. It was a rather successful film, loosely based on the previous, or one of the previous editors of Vogue, Anna Wintour. She still has a very set aesthetic,

shades, blow dry. She's still at Condé Nast, the publishing house. And she's your boss. So you'll say what you feel you can at this point. But you do favour a different style, it's safe to say. Yeah, and I think there's room for so many different, you know, personal style is personal. That's

by definition. And I think I was able to explore my personal style at a place like Vogue, which has been really fun and incredible. And I think there are so many different points of view. And every fashion editor, every fashion writer has a different view on fashion. And that's the beauty of fashion. I mean, it's a personal expression.

And I'm lucky that I've been able to lean into those things and the things that feel right for me and the things that speak to me the most. And my lived experience is different to the next person's and those things have informed my sense of style and I think growing up in London really did and walking around the streets of London and you know whether it was going thrifting on Port Bella Road or you know or just walking around Soho and the record shops there or going clubbing, which was a big influence on my personal style. So everything that you live, it shapes your eye and shapes your style, I think. Much has also been made by some of you being the first black woman to run Vogue

and also I wonder for you how that feels as well. Is that important for you as part of this? I mean, who I am shapes everything I do. It's not something I think about too much, but I understand when younger women of colour see me how important that is. And that is some of the most affirming. And that's one of the nicest things about having a position like this, that I get to encourage other women who might not have seen themselves in places like Vogue that's really powerful and meaningful and I don't take that lightly and yeah I mean I think my my Nigerian heritage and and you know I remember going to Nigeria for the first time and the sort of sense of color and the senses and just that. I can't deny that that's definitely influenced my love of colour

and my love of getting dressed because I do think Nigerians take that very seriously. Yeah, so that's very much a part of who I am. No, any colour today? We've got a bit purple. Yes, I'm very kind of muted for me today. You've got a khaki style jumper. Yes, I've got a khaki sweater.

It's, oh goodness, I've forgotten the designer, but it's a British designer. And then I'm wearing a Dries van Noten skirt. And I have some old Phoebe Philo Celine shoes. No trainers today. No trainers today. Let's talk about trainers just for a moment. The devil wears sambas was one headline

which caught people's eye. Yes. Talking about Adidas sambas, one of your favourites. Yes. And you and the prime minister, he was pictured in them last week. I don't know if you saw this image of Rishi Sunak. I've heard about this image of Rishi Sunak. I mean, I think it's not about, you know, who's wearing it,

it's how you're wearing it. Did he wear it right with his suit trousers and his tupped white shirts? Many quarters of the internet said Sambas are now over. I've seen Rishi in them. As the head of British Vogue, what do you say? I don't't think it's about sambas being over i i'm very much not into trends i think it's it's very much a personal attachment that you might have to a certain style i think sambas are a classic um other trainers are available other trainers are available i wear several different brands i wear several different styles um But I think it's just, you know,

what you feel comfortable in. I don't ever, I don't subscribe to this idea of like a trend living and dying because some people are, some people have a uniform and they like to stick to it. So yeah, I don't think Sambas are over. You're happy to march with the prime minister. I'm happy to have a, you know,

wear similar footwear to many people. I love how political you've just gone. I mean, the hugely diplomatic moment. It's good to get your take. You mentioned about what places had influenced your style. One of the big changes, and I was talking to the founder of this site not long ago, is the rise of Vinted and the rise of other websites and secondhand. I mean, of course, we've had charity shops for a long time. And I know when you were growing up, that's where you could then find and afford some of those big designers. But the idea of what you do being compatible with a push for sustainability, where do you come at that from?

I mean, I think it's really important to be intentional about what you buy if I think about what I'm wearing now my my shoes are from a resale site my the skirt was from a vintage store so I'm mostly I mean I think this is the only the jump is the only thing that's not that's new you know and so I'm very intentional about what I buy I like to buy brands who I feel I can stand behind young designers I like to support if I'm very intentional about what I buy. I like to buy brands who I feel I can stand behind. Young designers I like to support if I'm buying new. Because I think there's different ways of looking at sustainability. And I think it's important that we re-wear.

We don't think about fashion as disposable. The red carpet is a big part of the aesthetic and where things are shown. And do you like that side of things? I love that side of things. And do you like being on it? No. Okay. That's actually what I meant

because I was looking through your Instagram and seeing when you've had things created and you've gone to the Met Gala. And I wonder how that feels being on the other side of the lens and some of the attention you're getting now. Yeah, it's more uncomfortable. You've only looked uncomfortable

about two things in this interview, that and Rishi, so you know. But go on. Yeah, it's so, I love, you know, I love the art of getting dressed. I love watching the red carpet. And it's been so much a part of what I've done, you know, in my role at US Vogue. I was very much covering all of these big major events,

the Met, the Oscars. And there's so much excitement. You know, you get your popcorn out, you sit down and you watch and you kind of see how all of these Hollywood stars, how they approach dressing and what they do and the element of surprise and the people that really bring it, the people that have fun doing it. But when it comes to myself, it's a little bit more uncomfortable.

It's not what I'm used to. I'm not used to being so forward facing, but it can be really fun. When I get to spotlight a young designer, when I get to work with someone and do something custom, it's incredible. You know, it's so special to have something that's just made for you. And you kind of are reminded of that. I mean, that was how things were like hundreds of years ago. People would have things made just for them. And there are still, you know, tailors on Savile Row.

That's just that's something that's like a fingerprint. You have something that's made for you. So that is something lovely in that process. But yes, that moment that standing on the red carpet, that's not my favorite part. And are you doing the scary thing as the head of British Vogue? Are you going for that scary editor vibe or what's your scary editor I don't think my colleagues would say I'm a scary editor I'm very much I like to be as collaborative and accessible and I like to be reminded why I

did this job every single day like getting excited being able to to talk to people who share my obsessions with fashion because, you know, I think fashion gets dismissed as something very frivolous, but, you know, it's my obsession and it's so much about creativity, you know, and I think there's something about being able to bring that joy to people and to remind, you know, to bring a bit of levity to people's lives. That's really exciting. Choma Nardi was talking to Emma there. Now, Emma had the privilege of going to visit a refuge in the Greater London area last week,

and on Tuesday's programme, we heard her take a look around and meet some of the staff and women who live there. Here we share one woman's story. Her words have been voiced up by an actor to protect her identity. I love where I am now. It's like being born again. So I'm starting to get to know me. And the help, without the refuge, I wouldn't be here.

Last year, I didn't think I'd be here. I actually thought I'd be dead. I'm safe. And I wouldn't know what to have done without the refuge. It's also striking that you say you didn't think you'd end up at this stage of life in a refuge. Is that because you felt like your life was going to be different by this point? I felt my life was under control.

I felt like I was doing everything right. Like superwoman. You just got on with it. When I look at my mum and her parents back in the day, you shut up, you put up, you get on with it. So if you went to your mum and you said, oh, mum, he's doing this, he's doing that, she'd say, that's nothing.

He's not hitting you, it's just words, that's nothing. But it is because it's stripping you away stripping away your confidence bit by bit by bit until you feel selfless how are you feeling now i sleep a lot better the beginning was really really bad i cried so much. As time went on, you realise, you know what? I'm actually a survivor and it's not the end. It's a new beginning and you end up a stronger person. I am no less than what I was. I'm actually more than what I was because of what I've learned

and all the amazing people I've come across. I'm really happy to hear that. Thank you. And you can hear the whole of this feature if you head to BBC Sounds and listen to Woman's Hour from the 9th of April. Still to come on the programme, Gloria Steinem, the pioneering American feminist writer and campaigner, talks about turning 90,

and glorious music from Rebecca Ferguson. Now, you may remember a segment we did back at the start of March on female psychopaths. Dr Clive Boddy from Anglia Ruskin University told me about his research into the unique traits of women psychopaths in the workplace and clinical psychologist Estelle Moore gave us a medical perspective on the condition. Well this week Emma spoke to a woman who calls herself a psychopath. And in fact, when tested by a university expert in Texas, she scored 99% under current psychopathy criteria.

Jamie, or Emmy Thomas as she's known online, uses both her blog and book, Confessions of a Sociopath, to raise awareness of the condition and speak about what her life is like. She told Emma she always knew, even as a child, that she was different. I think for a long time I just thought maybe I was very smart and I thought I'm Mormon, so I thought that's very quirky. I mean, you tend to kind of stick out as being a Mormon or something. You have unique religious beliefs and unique religious protocol or whatever.

And so I had five siblings, so six kids in the family, and we were all musical, and it was a little Von Trapp-y, and it was definitely different than my peers. But it took probably until kind of college when I realized I don't really have normal relationships with people. And what does that mean? Because I also believe there's a story of you watching television with your father when you were younger, and you learn about empathy. Yes. Yeah. So I was watching TV, there was some, you know, sad story, it was, you know,

some child in Africa or something. And I made a joke about it. And my dad was like, have you no empathy? And I still remember that, you know, I was very young, I was like seven or eight. And I remember and I said, I don't know what is empathy. And he kind of gave me an explanation. And then I thought, maybe I don't, that's the actual answer I gave him, maybe I don't. And he kind of didn't follow up with it, I guess. And so I still have that memory. But it wasn't like anybody really followed up with me about any of it. I don't know if it's because my parents had six kids. And so, you know, how much attention can you pay any one child? And what about, though, when it came to putting empathy, I suppose, in practice, when it came to making friends, having social bonds? Well, you know, I think that, you know, children can be quite unempathetic sometimes. They can be quite empathetic too. But I think that often, you know, I seem to kind of relate to some of the

behavior of children. I feel like psychopaths are somewhat childlike. And so, you know, like pushing people, I mean, you know, there's just kind of a testing of boundaries, I think personal boundaries, themselves, and their peers that happens, you know, especially, you know, during puberty, especially I found amongst teenage girls, you know, there's a lot of kind of cattiness, and a lot of, you know, kind of mean girl type behavior that can kind of happen. So I think that I didn't consider myself, you know, invested in those types of, you know, trying to vie for the top. But I also didn't think of myself as being quite outside the norm. You know, I think during that whole puberty period, when everybody's

trying to find themselves, everybody kind of does stuff that they maybe later are ashamed of. What made you think you might be a psychopath? And what made you look into it properly? I think the thing that made me think I might be a psychopath is I kind of never learned to care about other people the way that I saw other people, you know, care about each other, you know, that empathy thing. You know, when I was in university, I had thought to myself, okay, I'm going to start prioritizing relationships because I never had before. And I thought that college is supposed to be the time in which you make these lifelong friendships. And so I thought, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to maximize my college experience. So I wanted to be a good friend. And I just failed so badly at it. And

I think that's what surprised me is that I was just pretty bad at it. I didn't seem to be able to intuit people's emotional needs. I didn't really have the patience for listening to them. I thought crying, you know, when somebody cried, I thought of it as a manipulation tactic, usually. Did you ever cry? If I cried, it was probably out of frustration, anger at that time. Again, I suppose someone listening to this who thinks there are those or maybe them, I've not been able to make friends. But there's a line, isn't there, between that and other reasons, potentially, and then what you came to think of as a need to look into psychopathy? Well, yeah, I think, I mean, there may be many reasons why people don't make friends. I think the lack of connection is the thing that I was lacking. And some people, you know, it just takes, you have to find the right person to be able to connect. And I thought that too, you know, through university, through

law school, I thought, I'll be able to connect eventually to people and it just never really did happen. You do this test that I mentioned, and you you clear it in the sense of you you hit 99%. What makes it give us a sense of what what gets you that diagnosis? What sort of traits you've talked about a lack of empathy is there must be other elements. So I would think my personal experience is I think of my experience of psychopathy is that it feels like a lack of a sense of self or very weak sense of self. And so things that would kind of characterize that some of the behaviors that you might see, or some of the things that I experienced are a disconnect to my own emotions. You know, since I don't really see myself as being, you know, a specific, you

know, I have a very weak sense of identity. I don't, you know, I know that what my shoe size is and my favorite color, but that's kind of it. When people ask me questions about myself, you know, it's like a puzzler. I really have to stop and think. I don't naturally have, you know, ready-made self-expression or, you know, my favorite thing to do on the weekends is to paint or to, you know, to do these different things. I really have to come at it kind of like an anthropologist studying my own behavior. What about rage and ability to control that if you don't have that feeling for yourself or for others? The word psychopath is often used in a very negative way, of course, as people will be familiar with it. It could be used in links to criminality, it can be links in, you know,

in a way that when you describe someone as possibly the worst, you could. What would you say to that about that side of things? So I think, without kind of a good awareness of my own self, my emotions come to me decontextualized. It doesn't seem like I'm even sometimes aware of them. I'm still experiencing them. It's almost like, though, like the sounds on but the TV screens off a little bit. There's just kind of a disconnect there. And so I can be angry and not kind of realize it until the anger has maybe spiraled. So I do experience rage in those instances and it surprises even me.

You know, I think why am I acting this way? I have to ask you, and I've got very little time, why did you go public about being a psychopath? So I think that the problem with psychopaths in society is largely that there's a lack of understanding. And so psychopaths aren't allowed to just say, hey, I struggle with empathy, because then they are, you know, fired from their job or, you know, they get divorced or whatever. People aren't comfortable having psychopaths in their lives. Fascinating stuff. That was Emmy Thomas speaking to Emma. Now, Gloria Steinem, the pioneering American feminist writer and campaigner,

first made a name for herself in the 1960s and 70s through her journalism, which included going undercover at the New York Playboy Club to expose exploitative working conditions and talking publicly about her own, at the time, illegal abortion. She co-founded the Women's Action Alliance in 1971 to empower women to combat sexism in society, and a year later she co co-founded Ms Magazine, putting conversations about gender, equality, reproductive rights and social justice in the spotlight and bringing the women's rights movement into the mainstream. She also co-founded the Women's Media Centre

and in 2013, she was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Barack Obama. And Gloria Steinem has very recently celebrated her 90th birthday. Well, Emma caught up with her on Thursday and she told her how she feels at 90. The mysterious thing is you don't feel very much different from at 50 or 60. Maybe different from 20 or 30. But no, it's kind of shocking. Yeah. I wonder when you've been going through your life, a big part of your life has been on the road meeting so many different people with all sorts of stories and largely women.

Had you thought about getting to this point of your life? Had you imagined it in any way? Not really. I mean, 40 was important, 50 was important, even 60. But I think in my imagination, I never got beyond that. Because just in terms of averages, one can't see enough women who were this age that I am now to have examples to follow. Well, you're on fresh snow and treading new ground, which is something you've done throughout your career. So in some ways, very well equipped for being that pioneer. and here. I would love to be able to be optimistic with you about women and our lives and the future. And in some ways, we can be and I will get to that. But there are many who feel certainly when they are living in your country and in America, that they feel we're going backwards when we're coming to the issue of women's rights. Many are worried about regression and the clawing back of hard won ground. Where are you at regression and the clawing back of hard-won ground. Where are you at the moment, Gloria Steinem? Well, it depends where I look. If I look at, you should pardon the expression, Trump,

who is bad on every issue, yet he entered the White House. So that is very discouraging. If, on the other hand, I think of and meet with people I know, women who are doing all kinds of careers that they never would have dreamed of a few decades ago, I feel cheerful about it. There are big areas in which we still need very much to advance. I would say that one is men raising children as much as women raise children, because it certainly humanizes and instructs both women and men. But right now, it's still quite unequalqual and we still have a pay gap. So, you know, there's no shortage of work to do. But now we know we can because we have had a women's movement for most of the lives of those of us who are alive now. When we talk about America and women's rights, it would be remiss not to to get your take at the moment on what has happened since Roe v. Wade was overturned in June 2022. Of course, people will remember you if they're familiar with your work. And certainly, you know, if they were around in 1973,

when you were celebrating the US Supreme Court's ruling in the case of Roe v. Wade. And we are now looking at 14 states and acting near total abortion bans, seven states now limiting the procedure somewhere between 12 and 18 weeks gestation. There's a concern around contraception being targeted next. What's your view about this? How fearful are you of the future for women's reproductive rights in America? Well, yes and no. It depends what we do, you know, because we started out completely flouting the law anyway about abortion, which is, you know, very dangerous because obviously a lot of them were not legal. I mean, where I live here in Manhattan, there was a clinic across the street from me where abortions were performed. And I always used to see women driving

up in old battered cars, you know, coming from other states to go and get this fundamental service. I think one of the things we don't understand is how crucial that issue has been throughout the history, at least history as we know it. For instance, when Hitler was elected, and he was indeed elected, the very first thing he did the next day was to order the closing of all clinics and declaring abortion a crime against the state. German, you know, racial balance, military, you know, for many reasons, has always been fundamental. But we don's how the Supreme Court is formed and there's a whole story to that. But do you feel this is going to be a permanent situation or your point is women will take control where they need to anyway? Yes, no, it's definitely true before and after Roe v. Wade that women are going to make this decision anyway. But the question is in how much safety and with how much support. How do you think this has happened? For those who view this as a regression, what has happened?

What has changed for this to go backwards, as some would see it, in the women's movement? And is some of that to be laid at the feet of the movement? Was there something that the women's movement missed or a moment here? I don't think there was a moment, but perhaps we were so obviously living the logic of, you know, if we don't have control and decision-making power over our own bodies, we are not living in a democracy. So this we always understood, but we may have underestimated the power of religions and the power of racism. Remember that this country is now on the verge of becoming a majority people of color country. The first generation of babies who are majority babies of color has already been born. Now, this seems a great thing. I mean, we're going to have

better relationships with other countries, look more like the world, better food, I don't know. But it is not perceived by those who are extremely race conscious as anything except a big danger. What do you think the women's movement should be focusing on now? Anything they damn well please. That's what I think. What do you think the women's movement should be focusing on now? could be age because women are still more penalized for aging than men in general are. It could be being in a racial ghetto and being deprived of, you know, we don't learn from sameness, we learn from difference. So it's a deprivation not to be able to be together with people who are different from us. In an essay published in Time magazine,

what would it be like if women win in 1970? You envisioned a future that would exist of a variety of alternative lifestyles, different makeup of families, the right for women to remain single without ridicule. How satisfied are you that at least some of that seems to have come true in some parts of the world. Yeah, I think a lot of it has. I mean, being able to remain single without ridicule is something I can testify to. In the New York Times, I used to be Miss Steinem of Ms. Magazine, because they had to identify women by their marital status, miss or misses, when they did not do that for men. All right, that doesn't happen anymore. Yes. It's also just thinking back to the power that people do or do not have. And I do have to ask you this with the opportunity of

talking to you. What is your read on why America still has not had a female president? What will it take? It's outrageous. It is, you know, I can't, you know, it's so angering. Obviously, Hillary Clinton should have been president all the way back to Victoria Woodhull, who was the, I believe, the first woman who actually ran for the presidency, because we have cut our talent in half and we are behind other democracies in the world in that regard. Yeah. I mean, you still say when you say something's maddening or annoyed, I know a chuckle in your voice. I mean, is that part of the secret to not getting bitter, to having a life of campaigning, to just keep going, to try and have some levity as you do it? Yes. And also it's a community. We gather together for campaigns, for

help with each other's work, whatever it is. We know it we are communal animals we need each other and a movement is a glorious way of becoming more communal how do you do you have any um personal practice or habits that that has stopped you from being burned out kept you not from you know for not being bitter kept your energy up well, they're my friend friends. And then I happen to have a big living room that's centrally located. So just yesterday I had like, I don't know, 20 people in a talking circle, which is what Native Americans call it, right? So you sit in a circle and everybody gets a chance to speak and everybody gets a chance to learn from them.

Actually, traditionally, you have a talking stick, which you pass around the circle. And while you have it in your hand, you're able to talk. And it's great. What a lovely idea. We don't have a stick. We just have a microphone here at Woman's Hour. Emma talking to Gloria Steinem. Now, are you looking for new ways to make your life better well forget about the latest self-help

gurus on social media try looking a little closer to home if you have young children because apparently toddlers are the best teachers of self-improvement dr hassan marali made this case on monday's program he's an emergency doctor, an associate professor at McMaster University in Canada and the author of Sleep Well, Take Risks, Squish the Peas, Secrets from the Science of Toddlers for a Happier, More Successful Way of Life. He spoke to Emma and told her why we need to take our focus away from toddler tantrums. If we put it into perspective, those tantrums, median time is only about three minutes, and they're awake for 11 to 12 hours a day. And so what I like to focus on is how they're spending

those other hours of their day. And that's laughter, playing, building relationships, spending time learning. And so I think toddlers do a lot of things right. And if we look at the data around adults who act in certain ways, like toddlers, you'll see that it really helps us be more happier and less stressed. Take us to some of the specifics. Well, what do you think you can learn from an individual who obviously can't go to the toilet by themselves, doesn't have a responsibility in many senses, and is heavily reliant on others and screams when they don't get what they want. Tell us what we can learn. Sure. So there's one thing that people don't think of as much, but there's a lot of great data behind it. And that's self-talk. So I have a

three-year-old. And when I go pick her up at preschool and I'm walking down the halls, I hear a lot of laughter and encouragement. But when I see the toddlers by themselves, they're doing a lot of things out loud. Little Julie's putting on her mitts and saying, Julie can do it. And Colton's over on the side and he's looking down at his boots and they're on the wrong way. And so he says, oh, Colton did this wrong. And this idea of self-talk is really a way to decrease stress in anxiety-provoking situations. There's a lot of great studies with adults where they're in MRI machines, they're shown aversive images, and they're asked to do one of two different things. What am I feeling right now?

Or what is Hassan feeling right now, for example, and talking to yourself in third person. And we see that the areas of the brain that are involved with emotional reactivity are actually decreased. And so self-talk is one of these wonderful lessons we can learn from toddlers that has a lot of great data if we were able to do it as adults. And it's a very simple thing to do. I was thinking of our conversation last night because I was also struck by sleep. You talk a lot about how toddlers, or rather those in charge of toddlers prioritize their sleep, but toddlers themselves do because everything really goes wrong if they haven't had what they need in that department. Yeah, definitely. I think that's probably the foundation of wellness is really getting good

sleep. And I think if there's one takeaway of what people can do to improve their lives is getting better sleep. And the toddler sleep routine is perfect. And it works so well for adults. It's so simple. It's just three easy steps. So an hour before you want to go to sleep, you take a hot bath or shower. Number two, for toddlers, it's applying lotion.

And that can be applying lotion or some other hygiene activity. And always, like every toddler, needs to read a book before bed. And none of this involves any screen time and reading is another thing they excel at but that's a nice way to end the toddler bedtime routine and easily adaptable for adults and definitely helps with sleep. Right well I'm going to set a bedtime that's what I decided after reading some of your book and and try to stick to it I hope not to miss the target and there's also around food there's some interesting take on food I know there's part of the title is called Squish the Peas,

but eating when you need and eating what you need. Toddlers are the original mindful eaters. They're very in tune with their bodies. And it's actually very difficult to make a toddler overeat. And that's where really the Squish the Peas comes from. It's their playfulness and everything. But it's really when they're full, they kind of just play with their food. Or sometimes, and this is another great toddler lesson, say no in a more powerful way than anyone is able to. They don't eat for all the reasons that adults do often because of boredom, because they're with another person, because they're in front of the TV. And I think that's another great lesson from toddlers is how to listen to our

bodies a bit better when we're eating. There must be some irony for you putting this together, both as a parent and as a doctor looking after children, because there'll be some parents listening to this. You thought, well, I actually had life pretty nailed. And then I did have a toddler. And my sleep went out the window, my ability to say no to sugar went out the window, or a lot more sugar than normal you can see where I'm going with this yeah and and certainly that's true and parents do get a break because being around a little person is uh is challenging because they're so active and they want to do so many different things and it's it's tiring I have a three-year-old and I'm I'm tired

but I'll tell you in the last two years since she was one, I have never laughed as much as I have. And every day is filled with a lot of laughter and a lot of games. And there's so many better things in my life now because of her. She's asleep right now. But as soon as she gets up, she's going to come over here and start spinning me in my chair and start laughing. And that's going to be a lot of fun. She's having more sleep. You had to go to work.

This is some of the issue. You're promoting what you've found here. A message here saying everything your expert is saying about learning from toddlers reminds me how much the elderly have in common with two-year-olds. And another one here though, different take, which we have to just come to while I have you. I think if we're throwing a tantrum to get what we wanted, then we'd be happy, but we'd certainly end up single and alone. But if it's jumping in puddles and kicking up leaves, then it's a resounding yes from me, says Michelle, who's listening. The emotional regulation piece, what do you say about that? Yeah, I mean, that's challenging.

And I'm not arguing that they're perfect. They do have a lot of issues that they're slowly working on. And that's just part of their development. And they'll get there. not arguing that they're perfect. They do have a lot of issues that they're slowly working on. And that's just part of their development. And they'll get there. What I want to say is that we as adults should be looking to how we used to act a little bit more and how they act all the time. And that will certainly help us a lot in our own lives. And there's a great example right at the beginning of the book where you talk about the spaghetti marshmallow challenge. So it's a good example. Why don't you explain around creativity and how your brain stops working as you get older? So as we get older, we develop our prefrontal cortex, which, you know, helps us plan,

think about the future, a lot of important things. But toddler minds, they're able to just absorb everything around them. And that helps them be more creative. And they don't have all the pattern recognition that we have because their brains are still developing that. And so the marshmallow challenge is a great one. So you get 20 sticks of spaghetti, a yard of tape, a yard of string and one marshmallow, and you have to build the largest tower. And so kindergarteners were pitted against a wide variety of adults and they beat out almost every single group of adults except for engineers,

but certainly business students, lawyers, other groups of adults because that toddler or childhood mindset can make us more creative. Just finally, pay inequality between the sexes. You have something on that to say? It's something that just would not exist in toddler world. Because, you know, we talk a lot about disadvantageous inequity when we have less or women are paid less than men for the same type of work. But what toddlers are also concerned about, yes, they're concerned about that, and they will protest that, is something called advantageous inequity, when they have more than

others. So if you take a group of three yearolds, you have them work in pairs with someone else, and then you give them a reward. And for toddlers, it's always stickers because that's the highest currency. And so if you give them more than their partner that they worked with on a project, they will do one of two things. One, they'll reject it, or two, they'll happily accept it and then redistribute those rewards with their partner. And this is true repeatedly, whether they're working with another toddler, whether working with an adult, whether they're working with a puppet. And so this idea of fairness is very strong in toddlerdom.

That was Dr. Hassan Murali. While the brilliant Emma Barnett may have moved on to pastures new, but I am still here, so join me next Friday. Do join Jessica Crichton from Monday. The Declaration of the Rights of the Child is 100 years old. She'll be finding out how it was created by British feminists and she'll be hearing how schools use the rights today. Have a wonderful weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.