Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Kaos with Janet McTeer, Sisters Lina and Laviai Nielsen, India protests, Post Office Scandal

Episode Date: August 31, 2024

A new Netflix series, Kaos is a modern, darkly comic retelling of Greek mythology that will perhaps have you seeing the gender politics of ancient Greece in a new light. Stage and film actor Janet McTeer stars as the Queen of the gods, Hera. Janet joins Anita to talk about Hera’s sexual power as well as her previous roles and what has changed in the industry.If you were watching the Paris Olympics, you might have spotted identical twins Lina and Laviai Nielsen taking to the track. The Olympic duo join Nuala to discuss competing together at an elite level in athletics, winning bronze side-by-side for Team GB, and navigating triumphs and challenges in the public eye after Lina’s Multiple Sclerosis diagnosis.Protests have been happening across India after a 31-year-old junior doctor was raped and murdered in a hospital in Kolkata earlier this month. Her death prompted marches and strikes nationwide over safety issues for female doctors and this soon developed into a talking point for women’s safety in general. BBC Delhi Correspondent Kirti Dubey joins Anita Rani to report on the latest news, along with Dr Aishwarya Singh Raghuvanshi, a female doctor in India.The Post Office Horizon scandal has been described as the most widespread miscarriage of justice in British legal history. One of those impacted was Ravinder Naga. In 2009, he falsely confessed to stealing money from his mum's Post Office to protect her from going to prison. Last week his conviction was overturned after 15 years. Anita talks to Ravinder and his mum Gurbash about what happened, and the impact it had on their relationship.The play Shifters follows former children friends Des and Dre, they are first loves whose relationship twists and turns over a decade. Currently on at the Duke of York’s Theatre, is the third play in the West End to be written by a black British woman. The writer Benedict Lombe joins Nuala, along with Heather Agyepong who plays Des.Los Bitchos are an all-female band from countries across the world who play a range of instrumental music from the style of Colombia folk music to Turkish psychedelic rock! All four members - Nic Crawshaw, Josefine Jonsson, Serra Petale and Agustina Ruiz, join Anita to perform live.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani, in the next hour. We'll hear from Tony and Olivier award-winning actor Janet McTeer on her latest role as Hera, Queen of the Gods, in the new Netflix series Chaos. Sisters, a relationship that's long fascinated us. And today we're going to hear from sisters,

sporting rifles on the athletics field and new Olympic medalists, Lavia and Lena Nielsen. You'll hear from Grubaksh and Ravinda, who are mother and son. Grubaksh ran a post office and was caught up in the Horizon post office scandal, a huge miscarriage of justice. Grubaksh was accused of taking money when it was a fault in the system. Her son, Ravinda, took the blame.

And we'll make some time for Love, Love, Love, with the writer and star of a new West End play, Shifters, about reviving first love as it redefines the rom-com. The writer, Benedict Lombe, is just the third British black woman to have a play staged in the West End. And there's music from pan-continental all-female band Los Bichos. You know the drill by now. No disruptions for the next hour.

Just you, the radio, and a cup of what you fancy. But first, to Greek mythology. You probably recognise names like Zeus and Orpheus, just two of the gods and heroes that make up the ancient Greek stories. And now they're being told in a brand new way in the series Chaos. It's dark, comical, modern, and will perhaps have you seeing the gender politics of ancient Greece in a new light. Stage and film actor Janet McTeer stars as Hera, Queen of the Gods.

She joined me this week and I started by asking her why she wanted to play Hera. Honestly, it all boils down to the writing. It always boils down to the writing. And Charlie Cavell, who wrote it, is the most amazing writer. So when you've been around as long as I have, you know, to read, to get something sent to you that's so original with a whole new voice, and I just thought they're so bright, so passionate, and I love working with bright, passionate people.

It's just fantastic. And when something's high quality and well written, then why not? Do you know what I mean? And you want to be part of it's it's so it's not just the part it has to be all of it yeah i'm just thinking that yeah sometimes we hear that it's you know just the the dream part yeah but for you yeah somebody has to have the whole experience yeah i think you know and and I think sometimes people forget that when we're playing these roles in the filming of them, that's our everyday life. Right. So that's what we do for months and months and months. So I'm old enough to think that if I'm not going to have a good time, I don't want to waste my time to do it. Do you know what I mean? So I don't like working with bad people. I only like working with decent people and nice people. And this particular project was just finished,

filled with amazing people. Yeah, you and Jeff Goldblum. I know, we had such a laugh. Can we just discuss, please? He's so great, Zeus. He's so great. I mean, you are great together. Let's put that down there.

We'll allow a little brief Jeff chat on Women's Health. Yes, we can have a Jeff chat. He's just, he's a delight to work with. And most of my scenes are with him. So for us to work together, that has to work. Do you know what I mean? And as actors, we absolutely have chemistry. And as pals, you know, he's a pal.

And he's quixotic. And as Zeus, he's quixotic and neurotic, and he brings everything that Jeff is in all those best ways. And also when he's scary, he's scary. And yet he's also incredibly charming. So he's just the most... And in the tone of the piece, which is ironic and sardonic, whilst, in many ways, whilst also becoming... The longer you watch it, it gets...

OK, the whole thing about the Greek myths and why they are consistently interesting is because they are so epic. And what's so great about drama is to be able to go from, you know, from A to Z. And this piece does. It gets... I don't want to give much away. No spoilers.

But, you know, it does get bigger and bigger and bigger as the piece goes on. And it starts off pretty big. Well, it does get bigger and bigger and bigger as the piece goes on. And so in the first couple of episodes... And it starts off pretty big. It starts... Well, it sort of does. It starts off as you sort of see this dysfunctional family and dysfunctional families, actually, and the stories, different stories,

you know, which are not necessarily interconnected, obviously, at the beginning. So what was so much fun was playing this, you know, Zeus and Hera, not only are they husband and wife, they're also brother and sister. And they've been married for a couple of thousand years. Well, imagine that. So we. But she has power within this relationship this relationship she does and she has a lot of power and what i love about her is and about the piece is as it goes on as you as you see some of the women in the piece taking on more power as the piece goes on and but at the beginning

the person with the most power is absolutely deuce and uh and it's about his abuse of power and what that kind of sets off and the piece itself it's just you know it's just so smart and so well written that what happens is it's an allegory for our world where we are now and you don't have to know a lot about greek myths if you don't know anything about greek myths um i mean there's just the the i thought that was genius casting you and jeff goldblum together because well you you kind of are so like gods as someone who who is, you know, five foot four and a half, the half really important, to have the two of you as these guys.

Yeah, we're pretty massive, both of us, yes. And if I'm wearing heels, I can look him in the eye because he's very tall. And you had your growth spurt quite young. And I was reading about... In real life. In real life, not as the Greek god.

And then, but you embraced your heights from a very young age I thought that was very interesting that someone yeah well actually I was the smallest in my class until I was about 13 or 14 I think and I grew something like seven inches in a year and it really upset me at the time and I got terrible terrible growing pains and I used to have to wear bandages on my knees and stuff and on my mum's side of the family there have always been two sisters for quite a few generations and my mum was a lot taller than my auntie Sylvia who is not tall and my grandmother was much taller than her sister, et cetera, et cetera. And my sister was always tall, my sister Helen. And I was always much shorter.

And then suddenly I really grew. And then I really, I was probably 14 by then. Yeah. And I grew about seven inches in a year. And then there was this boy that I fancied. Yeah. And I suddenly realized I was half an inch taller than him and I was absolutely devastated and I went home and I had to do my piano practice and my dad was there and I was just obviously not in a good place and I started crying

and my dad came over and he couldn't quite cope with it my mum was out and so I'll never forget he gave me a whiskey and a crabby's green ginger and did it work and tell me to sit down and wait for my mother I remember sitting there thinking right yeah I'm either gonna own this yeah or and make it a power or I'm going to um be embarrassed by it and ever since, from that very moment, I stood up and I have never stooped, ever. Not unless a part called for it. And then when I went to college, when I went to the Royal Academy, I did, I went to RADA.

When I went to RADA, I suddenly realised it was such a tool, you know, to help me be... Because you can use it in so many ways, being tall. And every part you play, of course, we all, as people, we all have different ideas about our bodies and our perspectives. And we hate them. We like them. We don't like this.

We do like this. We don't care about this. We don't notice this. So six foot one, is that? Yeah, I think I'm probably just short of six foot one, but I'm happy to say I'm six foot one. Oh, I love it. I love being tall. I love being tall. Thank you, Janet McTeer. And Chaos is out now on Netflix.

This week, we had a special themed episode all about sisters, whether you have one or not. It's a relationship that's long fascinated us. Nuala, along with various guests, including her own two sisters, unpicked what makes the female sibling dynamic so compelling. And in that programme, we also heard from two stars of the sporting world, the newly decorated Olympic medalists, Lavia and Lina Nielsen, their identical twin sisters, both competing at an elite level in athletics. Earlier this year, they were in Glasgow for the UK Athletics Indoor Championships and most recently at the Paris Olympics, where they both took to

the track for Team GB in the women's 4x400m relay. Lina in the heats and Lavia for the final, landing a bronze medal each. Along with the triumphs, there have been challenges for their relationship. Lina has multiple sclerosis diagnosed as a teenager and she essentially had to learn how to walk again but Lavia has been by her side for every step. Nuala began by asking Lavia what it was like being on the podium together. Oh it was just incredible I think you know we started the sport together and I think we've always known that we could be on a podium together and there's been moments where one of us has made it and the other hasn't that's been really tough and so being there together just felt like a combination of all those highs and lows and finally we were able to put Olympic medal around our necks together. It's amazing in Glasgow you were rivals as I mentioned

at those championships but Paris then on the same team what What was it like, Lena, for you? It was incredible. I missed out on Tokyo and watched my sister go to Tokyo Olympics in 2021. And that was the hard moment that you spoke about. So it was hard for Labi to enjoy it without, you know, feeling that kind of guilt complex of leaving one behind. So to make Paris together was just such an amazing moment. It was something we dreamed of since we volunteered at 2012 together 12 years ago. So to make that podium was just a cherry on top. I found that very moving that you worked at 2012 in London.

What were you doing, carrying Jessica Ennis-Hill's bag? Did I read that correctly? Yeah, we were kit carriers. So we would be there on the start line to carry their kit to the finish line, which is a difficult job. They don't exist anymore, these kit carriers. So we were very, very lucky that we got to experience that. We were the only people other than the athletes and the officials and the media that were allowed on the field of play and if people are wondering that is lena that has just been speaking before that you do sound similar but i'm wondering do you get mistaken for each other

all the time all the time one of us will okay i don't run hurdles this is love you speaking i think i have to introduce myself every time i talk. But I don't run the hurdles. And someone will literally tag a photo of Lena going over hurdles with my name. And I'm like, do your research. I don't run the hurdles. But, you know, there was a word there that, Lina, I think you said that the joy that came off being on the podium together was that you didn't have the guilt. Is there quite a lot of guilt if one succeeds and the other doesn't? Lavya? Yeah, I think it kind of feels a bit like survivor's guilt, especially because Lina's had such a tough time with illness as well.

And so you're kind of standing on the podium. And, you know, because we're identical twins, we grew up together. So the nature versus nurture argument doesn't quite work with us because we grew up the same. And so I think there's a kind of, yeah, like a survivor's guilt complex thing going on because I'm just thinking if we had the same sort of upbringing and the same environment, then we should both be here. But, of course, Lena's had a difficult time as well.

So let us go back to the early years when little Lavia and Lena were running around the house like I think these girls have something did you develop a love of running at the same time Lena? We were so lucky growing up we grew up in one of the Olympic boroughs we are literally a product of the London 2012 Olympics and if that's not a legacy then what is what is and so we were kind of pushed into sport by our PE teachers and we did know from a young age that we were talented. We didn't know what talent meant, obviously as eight, nine year olds, but we knew that we had something and we'd race the boys and the teachers would tell us, but it was only until the 2012 Olympics did we really start to push

ourselves. So we're actually late bloomers. What's a late bloomer then? We started training properly around 17, 18, which a lot of athletes on the team would have started at 9, 10, 11. We didn't know that we had to train. We would just go and win these races with no training. And was it competitive between you from the get go? I think we were. I think we were competitive. We just didn't really know what that meant.

I think and we speak about it now. We speak about healthy competitiveness because we are identical twins and we do have very similar strengths and weaknesses. When we're training, it's kind of like I should be up there with the other. If she's far ahead, she shouldn't be that far ahead. You know, we've both got the same tools. And so I think that's the advantage we have being competitive is that we use each other and not many people can get to say that they train with someone who's very similar to them our coach calls us co-pilots actually it's really nice yeah flying the plane together so it's um that's been the advantage and i think even now we're not super competitive we're not competitive outside of the track but on the track we know that it's useful you leave it on the track yeah and but you know you mentioned 17 lena when you started training seriously but that was also when you were diagnosed with MS.

Although I understand you started experiencing symptoms earlier than that. How does MS affect you? So we have, both of us have a form of MS called relapsing remitting MS, so RRMS. And it doesn't affect us day to day. We have symptoms sometimes that last maybe a couple of days, a few weeks. And then we're really fortunate to have made full recoveries from all those relapses so I've had my first symptom at 13 which was um paralysis on the left arm and then the next relapse was double vision

and then the one after that was what led to my diagnosis which was paralysis down the whole right side of my body and that's what made me have to learn to walk again because there was just no movement on the right side of the body. And I had to drag my right leg to basically be able to walk and then learn to jog again and run again and sprint again. And at that point, Larvi had made her first global championships, which was the World Junior Championships. And I was so happy for her. I remember crying when she got the call. But then I was like, oh, that could have been me. But here I am learning to jog again. And to be fair, like I always say, I would never be in the sport if it wasn't for my sister like obviously we are carbon copies of

each other and seeing what she achieved I was like right if I just get healthy and recover and you know learn to sprint again then I could do the same thing and then lo and behold a year later we both made the European junior championships in Sweden and we both came away with a gold medal in the 4x4 as juniors which was just an incredible journey but I wouldn't have done it if I didn't see my sister do it. And that's just the beauty of sisterhood, knowing that you could have that too. Which is a very interesting perspective to have when you're learning to walk and your sister is winning at these championships.

But there you go. And now you're Olympian. But you didn't disclose your diagnosis, is my understanding, to Lavia when you found out. I don't know how you keep that a secret as well. It wasn't so much keeping it a secret. It was, I think, again, talking about that guilt complex. I remember when I got diagnosed, there were a lot of things thrown around the room. But one of the things that the consultant had said was, if you have a sister or brother, then they will most likely develop MS as well. And I was like, like well I've got

an identical twin sister and then they're like yeah so I think the stat that was thrown around was like a 95% chance and I was like oh god this is my fault like I had this since I was 13 and I don't know obviously I was really young and I didn't know I kind of thought if I didn't experience this then my sister would have to experience this and I basically couldn't tell her so it was really hard and I think that was one of the hardest things to do with the diagnosis was knowing that I'd have to tell her that I have it and you might have it too. And when did you tell her? I think it was about two or three months later and I kind of just threw it in on a warm-up jog and on the track I was like oh yeah by the way um I have MS and then she was like why don't you tell I remember she said why don't you tell me

you should have told me sooner and then yeah and then after that it was just open conversation but you decided then to go public with it lena that's a few years ago yeah 2022 so just after the world championships why did you it just felt so right i made my first senior global championships which was the world championships in eugene in 2022 and unfortunately really bad timing suffered my first relapse in five years two days before I was due to race and it was just just awful just heartbreaking it just felt right that that I showcased kind of what happens behind closed doors all athletes deal with something and that was my something to deal with and honestly it's one of the best things I've ever done is come in public with with my condition and it's empowered me and almost helped me accept it further the diagnosis

which I didn't realize I didn't accept fully. And then to your part of this story Lavia you find out you were also pre-diagnosed for MS? Yeah because I didn't really have any sort of major symptoms I didn't have much damage in the brain and on the spinal cord and I didn't have much it was very very minor so they kind of pre-diagnosed to say if you get symptoms in the future it's most likely going to be this what is it like then having to deal with that does it help to know you have somebody that literally knows what you're going through yeah because part of because i got diagnosed well the with the consultant two days before i flew out to tokyo

and i remember being in tokyo thinking know, maybe we shouldn't be doing this because I remember Lena said to her consultant, I do athletics, I'm supposed to be making the national championships in a few weeks. And the doctor said, you might want to reconsider that. And so when I went to Tokyo, I remember the consultant saying to me, be careful of stress, be careful of COVID.

But then I remember seeing Lena not being able to walk and then seeing her fly over hurdles and being one of the quickest in the UK. And I just thought, actually, no, maybe we should be doing this maybe because we have this passion we have this fire we have this drive that every time we experience a symptom there's always that drive to come back and to be back at our best and so I think maybe athletics has given us that drive and it's given us a purpose. I think you just to me come across as just incredibly resilient and able to pick yourselves up and go again.

I'm just thinking, Lena, she mentions hurdles. The Paris Olympics during the women's 400 metre hurdle semifinal, your foot caught on that final hurdle and you fell. Tell us about that moment, also where you go from there. A lot of people see that as, oh, you fell over. But what you don't see is my legs absolutely burning from lactic acid. I pushed myself to my absolute limit could not lift my leg over that last hurdle and I fell and a lot of people are like I'm so heartbroken for you I'm

so gutted for you I was like I'm not I ran at the Olympic Games like you came home with a medal I'm really really not upset it just happens that I really pushed myself and I'm glad that I did that because our coaches have always said they there needs to be one race where you push yourself to the absolute limit and then you know what it's like and that was my that was my race at the olympics and i always knew i had the relay and i knew we had a shot as team gb to come away with the medal so i could not be upset for too long i had to refocus and shift all my energy into the relay and the olympics was my first major championships ever that i've ever raced in and you know having my sister there who's had so much experience over the years um world championships european championships olympics as well in tokyo i could just kind of turn to

her and be like what do i do if this happens what do i do in the call room what do i do kind of when the baton comes around to me and things like that i'd always ask she's like my big sister even though we're a minute apart because she's had so much you are the older one but because she's had so much more experience in track and field, I can always turn to her and ask her for advice, and it was really nice. British track athletes and identical twins, Lavia and Lina Nielsen. And you can catch up with all our different sister-themed conversations by going to BBC Sounds for the episode from Monday 26th August.

Now to India, where for the last few weeks, medical professionals and members of the public have been taking to the streets in protest. At the start of the month, a 31-year-old junior doctor was raped and murdered at her place of work, a hospital in the eastern Indian city of Kolkata. Her death has prompted marches and strikes nationwide over safety issues for female doctors, soon becoming a talking point for women's safety more generally.

The most recent was on Tuesday night when police in Kolkata fired tear gas and water cannons to disperse thousands of protesters. This week, I spoke to Dr. Ashwarya Singh Raghuvanshi, who's been taking part in these protests in her home city of Bhopal in central India. She's an ophthalmologist or eye doctor. And it wasn't that long ago when she was doing her junior doctor residency herself. I started by asking her how she first felt when she heard the news. We are very outraged right now. And the thing is that when I first heard about it, it was a state of deep shock that I felt and then anger and chills ran down my spine because it could have been me. We just all of us felt that we were in this vulnerable situation whole time for two, three years of our life.

We were in this vulnerable situation and it could have been us because the security was never there it's a mixture of sadness anger and shock and a disbelief that um like our our own female sister resident of medicine had to go through such atrocities so 9th of august was very difficult for us i'm sure i'm sure it wasn't that long ago that you were a junior doctor on a similar residency and you said that you know it showed just how vulnerable that you are in that period. Explain what that's like. What is it expected of you? Okay.

So after when we've done our MBBS, that is we are pronounced as doctors. So we give an exam called as a NEET PG exam. So according to the ranks in that exam we get uh institutes and pg residency all over india okay so we have to move to a different state we have to step out step out of our comfort zone into a completely new place into a completely new hostel new surroundings and new hospital and you are posted there for 36 hours. Every day you are on call.

I would like to recall my residency experience. So I just joined in June. So I remember that I was put on call throughout one year. And the night duties were particularly horrifying because there's a three o'clock call coming in the night and you as a girl are walking on the like a very poorly lit road which has a lot of drunk patients because that hospital was on the main highway there are a lot of road traffic accident cases that come which are usually drunk truck drivers that come in and they are already very angry and they are in a drunk state they are not in a state that they would respect females they used to abuse us

they used to shout on us and we used to go there just for our profession that we want to help out them and as a primary caregiver to stop the bleeding and do some suturing in their eyes. And that also was not taken well by them. They wanted a male person there. And was it often you on your own? Yeah. Yeah. So we used to take our female colleagues with us so as to feel a little bit more safer.

And that was just a provision that you chose to do? We arranged. You arranged. We arranged ourselves. And there was no security, I would like to do? We arranged. You arranged. We arranged ourselves. And there was no security, I would like to tell you. In the wards, there was no security in the casualty area, emergency area. And any relative would barge inside the emergency room and would bash doctors, would verbally abuse them. There is no security.

There is no law for that in India. This incident happened in Kolkata and the protests soon spread around the country. They're still ongoing. Tell us about what happened in your own town of Bhopal. We have a doctor's association over here. We had organised a peaceful protest march that started from our hospital building throughout our own campus to the outside area. We protested peacefully and we want the Central Protection Act for the safety of doctors for the abuse against violence. All our protest was against that freedom against fear to make it as a safe place for girls to step out of their house and work.

And because if we can't give safety to our females that are just going out to work, there's no equality in that, I think. How did it feel coming together? It was very emotional. I felt very supported in that kind of environment because I thought that finally somebody's talking about it. Finally, the things that we could never say it aloud, in that kind of environment because I thought that finally somebody's talking about it finally the things that we could never say it aloud people are talking about it now we have that

safe space where we could acknowledge or talk about our feelings and people were there who understood us finally people understood us that yes women's safety working women's safety and is a huge thing that we need to work on as a society do you feel like you're being listened to do you feel like this has happened before in india women have come to the streets you know you are you are there is an entire new generation of young educated bright women who want the culture to change do you think things will change it's a very difficult question for me because the thing is i am a very hopeful person i always thought that there would be change

coming in but uh near bhaiya case that happened in 2014 um and uh 2012 sorry and now uh 12 years down the line we're still at the same crossway and now is the time that everybody's together the whole country is protesting together I'm so glad that this issue is getting national and also in international attention now I really hope things change now. So what is your experience like now going back into work post the protests how is the situation at work? So the first day when I went to work after this incident we were all very angry at the male gaze i'm sorry to say and we were all we all had a heightened sense of vulnerability at work also so we were all female colleagues and even our male

colleagues they were also very supportive we were discussing about it because you know a lot of our old triggers came back in because we just felt lucky that we were not about it because you know a lot of our old triggers came back in because we just felt lucky that we were not on the receiving end but it could have been us any day so we were all we felt supported by our staff members and I would like to add that there were a lot of committee meetings in our hospital personally also there were some measures that were added that there would be no entry given to any personnel in the hospital without an ID card. Another meeting just yesterday happened and they said that there will be CCTV surveillance of every part of the hospital. So we've taken matters into our hand now.

Like our safety is our responsibility now. We are carrying pepper sprays with us. We are carrying our own safety because we do not trust the safety that is provided by the officials anymore. Into work, you're carrying pepper spray into work? Yeah, we used to do that in our residency also because there was no proper security guards. And now again, so we stopped. Now again, after this issue, we are now again carrying our own safety with us. Dr Aishwarya Singh Raghuvanshi talking to me this week.

Still to come on the programme, music from Los Bichos. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, it's been called the UK's most widespread miscarriage of justice, the post office IT scandal where hundreds of sub-postmasters across the country were wrongly convicted of crimes including theft and false accounting as a result of a faulty IT system called Horizon. One person convicted was Ravinda Naga, whose mother, Gurbaksh, was sub-postmistress at Belleville Street Post Office in Greenock, Scotland.

In 2009, Ravinda falsely confessed to stealing money from his mum's post office to protect her from going to prison, all for a crime that never took place. Last week, his conviction was overturned after 15 years. I spoke to Ravinda and his mum, who go by their nicknames Danny and Paula. They say this experience has changed their relationship as mother and son. Danny started by telling me how strong their relationship was beforehand. I was always close to my mum as a child,

always have been close to my mum. Yeah, she's always been, she always had that work ethic. She was never, how can I explain? She was never a stay-at-home kind of mum. She was quite different to all my relatives kind of mums because my mum was quite modern. She was a businesswoman and she wasn't

a typical, she never wore Indian suits and things like that, yeah. Doing things your own way, Paula, tell me a bit about you mentioned work ethic. What does that mean to you? Tell me a bit about how you brought your children up. Basically, they seen how we were working, so obviously they wanted to lend a hand as well.

So we kind of just moved on then. And how hard were you working? It's not so much as hard as just getting on with your daily chores and fitting your home life into your working life. She'd start at six in the morning and normally finish at about nine in the evening. Apart from her Sunday rest, she'd finish at four, she'd be like seven days a week pretty much. Yeah. My dad died because of it.

I had a blood clot in his eye. And she, the day he died, she left the hospital and went back and opened the post office because the post office had no cover for her. That's how committed she was to that job. Can you take me back to 2009, Paula? When did you first get an idea that there might have been trouble in the post office? Like I said, it had been accumulating since we'd had the horizon. Error notices came and went, but then everything was taken care of,

or you reported it or whatever. Something in your favour, something came back and sometimes you had to pay back. At that time, I think working became a little bit, you didn't know what's going to happen day to day or week to week. You know, the fear always used to be when you're done, you're balancing. And what was the fear? Tell me, explain a bit more. Like you were obviously balancing the books, but there was discrepancy.

What did that kind of do? Basically, you couldn't put your finger on anything. There was times when I was there about eight o'clock, seven o'clock. And considering you finished at 1 o'clock that day when you'd only balanced it, you know, if something went wrong, you had to pick up a phone. What would they say when you called them? They used to say, oh, we'll try and see what's happening,

and this and that, sometimes they used to say, or we'll correct it this side, or try and see if you can find something there, or check this or check that. And it came to the contrary. They used to say, well, we'll find it from our end. And then you presume they knew that you're all over, going to the next counts, everything would have been sorted out.

It didn't work out that way. It did not work out that way, no. When did? Because you were accused of a shortfall of around £35,000. So how did you get involved, Danny? I got involved when she called me, just out of the blue, and said to come to the post office.

And then I went to the post office and I got there and there's been three post office staff there. My mum's come over. Like I said, my mum's always been quite a strong person. The first time in my life I've ever seen her to the point where she actually looked scared and lost. I'd never seen that in my life. It's alien to me to see my mum like that then she said to me they're saying there's money missing I've looked at her and I just said to her she says don't worry I said whatever happens I'll say I done it. I think a lot of people will find that quite

remarkable like you hadn't even't even know what had happened, but on the spot you said to your mum, whatever it is, I'll take the blame. I know my mum's not a thief. I know my mum ran that post office efficiently. I know my mum ran that post office efficiently to the point where she'd miss family functions, she'd miss time at home, she'd spend hours auditing. If she couldn't find something, she'd miss time at home, she'd spend hours auditing if she couldn't find something,

she'd go over and over again. She took pride, anyone in her business, she took pride in everything. I'd never seen her scared in my life, like, ever. The reason I called him was because I thought I was going to be taken away straight away. Would you imagine, your mum, you imagine looking at your mother and you think she's going to be imagine looking at your mother and you think she's going to be took away at that minute

and locked up? Paula, what did you think when Danny, your son said that to you? Whatever mum, I'll take the blame. I felt he and the young family that would have been better if they'd known what they wanted to do to me. But then I remember what he said to me at the time. He said, if you don't let me do,

I put my hands up to it. I'm never going to talk to you again. He said that to me at the time. And then rather than have dispute in the family, I just thought, well, maybe for once I should, you know, just do what he wants to do. And what happened? You weren't jailed? No, I wasn't jailed because I took £35,000 to court. They planned to give me 18 months. You basically paid them the £35,000 and that's why you didn't get the jail sentence? Yeah, on the day of court. On the day of court.

And that's why you were then sentenced to 300 hours. That's why I got community service. They make it as if they've done me some sort of favour. No, I gave them the money on the day, on the day I appeared for sentencing. How did all of this affect your family? My wife is young. She'd moved here, only been here a couple of years. We'd met out in India, right? So, and she just adjusted to being here. She's got, my son's born. She's got a young child obviously that within itself takes its toll she was pregnant with my daughter Yeah, you had a lot going on, young family

Yeah, and then when this happened, she started having complications with the pregnancy, she had to go for a scan every two weeks, she nearly lost my daughter twice through all the stress of this I've got arguing with my mum because she's still trying to go no, no, I'm going to How are you feeling during all of this. I've got arguing with my mum because she's still trying to go,

no, no, I'm going to... How were you feeling during all of this, Paula? Very stressful, actually. It was out of our hands. Because we couldn't tell the truth either because we would have been done. Yeah. So there you go, like you just said, Paula, there's the added layer there that you were worried about the consequences because, as you know, in order to protect you, you had to break the law

because you lied to say that you committed this crime. Once they put his hands up, there was no going back. I thought they were going to now try and do it with the perverting of the course of justice. So it was only until they guaranteed me they wouldn't do it with that that I let them reopen and look at the case. So in the meantime, a number of postmasters across the country started taking legal action against the post office. And we know this, it's been spoken about. Gradually, the extent

of the scandal was finally revealed. A faulty IT system, which meant that hundreds of people had been falsely convicted of theft, fraud and false accounting, including your family. The Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission looked into your case and in 2023 concluded that you pled guilty in circumstances that were clearly prejudicial and they referred to it as a miscarriage of justice. They gave you permission to appeal your conviction and last week your conviction was overturned.

Does that give you some peace of mind? No, because there's other people out there who still haven't been dealt with. It's far simple. People haven't been dealt with. When I was sitting and I was watching other people being dealt with and I wasn't getting dealt with, I was feeling, well, why are they better than me? So now I feel for the people who are sitting

and thinking, well, why have I been dealt? And let's look at it this way then. If I did break the law to do what I've done, surely then people should have been caught before me. So, Paula, what about you? What does this news mean to you? And do you feel you can move on now?

No, what it means to me is that I've got nothing else to show. He's played his legacy that I've left behind him. I didn't want him to be, you know, liable as a committed because of me. I mean, he's got a charge because of me. And that's one thing I was willing, you know, I thought if I could do something about it, remove that stigma, that's why I went for. I mean, everything else exploded after. Everything else came about after what the Post Office was doing and wasn't doing. But at the time, that was my main concern. Well, if I can clear his name, then I would have felt a relief, which I did on that point, that his name has been...

Has been cleared, yeah, miscarriage of justice. Has been crushed and cleared. But what, you know, before all of this, Paul, are you a very confident, successful businesswoman? How has all of this affected you? Have you been able to rebuild your business, rebuild yourself? No, nothing actually. My mum's been retired since 2008. I'm not being, basically, I had one thing to occupy me, which was the grandchildren. I dropped them off, picked them up from school, nursery, and all that, that kept me going. But apart from that,

my life hasn't moved on at all because I was used to working in a public life, working with the community. I like selling the community, I know a lot of people do, but at the end of the day, it kept me going. That was my daily routine, really, for 27 years. So how are you now? Actually, it's all taking effect now.

Going in there the other day. Going in there the other day as well. Absolutely. Even the building hasn't been spared, never mind our lives. And it's all due to what happened at the time. So you went back to visit your old post office? Well, that was the first time in 15 years.

What was that like? That's when the anger filled into me. That's when he told me, that one day, and what had happened a few months later, and that was the turning point of ruining all our lives. Are you angry? I am angry now. I am.

Because they turned the light bulbs out. They took everything she built up. Because, God, remember, nobody gifted up these businesses. It took time to build up these businesses and own this. So they ripped all that from her. We did contact the post office and we've had a statement from them. A spokesperson said, we are truly sorry for the suffering caused by the post office's past actions.

We're doing all we can to help victims get answers and to put things right as far as that can ever be possible. What do you think, Paula? If I turned around that day, sorry, I don't know what had happened. Would they have said to that? Is sorry good enough when there's people that are dead? Is sorry going to raise the dead? It is so tragic

in so many ways and so many of these stories are coming out and still coming out, including yours. But what is interesting in your story is it's the story of a family and that we know that it was a family business and that you kind of came together, even in the strangest of circumstances and the sort of stress

and the worry. Are you still a close-knit family? We had our ups and downs. Things have been strained sometimes. The relationship got strained and there has been a lot of... We're not as close as we were, but we're never not going to be close because the bottom line is this. We're family, we love each other, and we know above everything,

money's not the most important thing. And what's about the compensation? Will you get the £35,000 back? Do we know that? Well, that's what I'm wondering. I know they're talking about the compensation, but obviously the £35,000 I've paid them at core, that £35,000 is amout,

and they already owe my mum, which they've acknowledged, £31,000 separately for other horizon money they've had to offer. So out with the and they already owe my mum, which they've acknowledged, £31,000 separately for other Horizon money they've had of her. So out with their compensation, they already owe us about £70,000. Yeah, I would like to say before it goes well to all the other victims that are out there,

we do hope that they all get their justice quickly. I have the fact that this only came to light because of a TV programme should make our justice system ashamed because we're supposed to have one of the best justice systems in the world. We're supposed to pride ourselves on that. Paula, what would you like to say?

Yeah, there's no words for it, really. Everybody throws their club at me. And how do you feel? Not good at the moment actually, because this is now when I'm tapping into my feelings where I had all those years. I've not been able to go there. It was just a matter of another day gone through. That was one of the reasons she didn't want to speak to people as well because it's something that she, when she does start to go into, it opens a lot up for her. It's still a lot of stuff where she is still addressing personally within herself.

That was Ravinda and Grabuchnaga, who go by their nicknames Danny and Paula, talking to me from Scotland. Now, there's a play that's on in London at the moment, and it's only the third play in the West End to be written by a black British woman. It's called Shifters. It's about two former childhood friends, Des and Dre. They are first loves whose relationship we see twist and turn over a decade. It's been a big hit and fans include the musician Little Sims, presenter Maya Jammer and actor Idris Elba, all are co-producers of the show. Des is plays by Heather Agipong

and the play's writer is Benedict Lombe. They joined Nuala this week to talk about the play and its significance. It's the story of these two childhood friends who were first loves and they haven't seen each other for eight years. So the play begins at this sort of very moment of reunion and the plot of the play is essentially the story of their relationship.

Right. Like we we kind of see it play out a bit like a puzzle. What you think might have happened, like might not have happened. And so it's all about the twists and turns and the sort of the surprises, the moments that we get to surprise the audience with. Yeah. The real story of their relationship and it's very uh it's it's it's kind of magical and dreamlike and surreal but it's also sort of grounded and rooted in real in real things and i i often say it's it's a love story but i i always say it's a life story it's the story of these two people's lives that you get to see play out. Grounded in real things. I won't ask for any love secrets from either of you. But Heather, it's a two-person play.

Wow. I mean, it is you and Dre, played by Tosha Cole, on the stage. We are following you both back and forth through memory and years. And you're young and you're older. How does it feel? I should also say that you are surrounded by the audience. They're on every side of you, which I felt I had you in my sights the whole time. I mean, I'm sure the other side of the audience did, too.

Tell us what it's like. Oh, it's an absolute dream. So this sort of traverse experience, we had it in the bush and we really wanted to make sure that the audiences could see kind of from different perspectives. So Lynette Linton, our wonderful director,

wanted to ensure that that was kept, that was throughout the West End transfer. But for me playing Des, it's just an absolute dream. Benet is, I think Benet is like a once in a generation talent. She writes characters in a really nuanced, complex way and talks about love in a real way, talking about the baggage we bring into love

and this need to be vulnerable and need to be seen. And also as like a black actress having a role like this, it's like an absolute dream come true so I can't really believe that I'm doing this how would you describe the relationship between Des and Dre oh it's real deep love and there's something about um there's a line when Bene says about it's a powerful thing to be seen and this idea idea of stripping away masks and pretenses and they really see each other. And like the show, of course, it's about love and joy and beauty, but it's also about loss and grief and transformation and healing. You know, but the audience goes on that with you.

First, when I sat down, I have to say, everybody around me was singing these songs. You know, I have to put my hands up. I didn't know all these Congolese and Nigerian songs that obviously were massive hits. I kind of had it by the end of the show. I kind of got in the groove with a few of them. Did you Google any of them afterwards? Do you know what?

I was trying to figure out, particularly, we'll get into your Congolese background in a minute, but the music is a huge part of it throughout it. And also you mentioned kind of that deep, complex, you know, loss or nostalgia, all those things. The audience very audibly responds to you. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yes. Did you expect that? A little bit, a little bit.

I think there is something that happens, I think, when you get black people in an audience who are finally seeing their stories reflected back to them. They're finally seeing their lives reflected back to them. They're finally seeing their lives reflected back to them. They're finally seeing their cultures and their food and their music. And I think there is this sort of, you know,

people think that a theatre audience is supposed to be a certain kind of way. And I think the audiences that we get kind of completely defy what that, you know, idea is, because they are really open with how they feel. And I think what happens is they allow, like traditional, traditional theatre goers to also express themselves in that way, right? Because there's this idea of like, if you have like an industry audience, they're not going to respond the way that our audiences respond. And part of it is like, sure, like this idea of like if you have like an industry audience they're not going to respond the way that our audiences respond and part of it is like sure like this idea of theater etiquette yeah but part of it is also because there aren't enough black and brown people in that audience who will

respond in that way and allow you to go oh my god I feel shock I feel surprised I feel giddiness I feel deep deep deep just love right now and I want express that. And I think this is the kind of play that allows for that expression, right? Like we create the space that allows for people to react that way. But, you know, I gave that stat out just as a line, but I mean, there's so much behind it that you're only the third black British woman

to have a play staged in the West End. How does that sit on your shoulders? It sits very complicatedly, if that is even a word. I think, you know, there's the idea of this kind of being a real moment because of the truth of the fact that, you know, the third black British woman to have a play on in the West End is really special and something to be celebrated. And in the same breath that we celebrate it,

we're also kind of going, this can't be the reality for very long. Like, let's use this moment to celebrate this moment, but also let's go, hang on a second, like, what are the other stories from black British women that we can have in this space? Because I think if Shift is saying anything, it's that we can have in this space because I think if Shift is saying anything

it's that we need more stories. And I want to also say Natasha Gordon and Yasmin Joseph are the other two women, black British women that went before you. But you know you have said Benedictine, I'd be curious for your thoughts on this as well Heather, that you worry about an erasure of black women

that is rarely acknowledged in that space of theatre, even by the black men who have those platforms. Yeah. Do you want to expand on that? Yeah. I mean, I think that

there, and I want to be careful in how I say this because I think what's really been really beautiful that we've all kind of celebrated is welcoming a lot of incredibly talented black men into this space. I think it's something that we all really celebrate. And often when we talk about the successes of black theatre makers and black artists, a lot of the time it is black men and has been black men. And I think there is something about us being really specific in that moment while celebrating those black men also going,

where are the black women? Absolutely. Right? Yep. And I think when we talk about that specificity, which is one of the reasons that I think this play is really um having the impact that it's having is is because we are being really specific in what we're saying we're being really specific in the things that we are representing but at the same time we're going these are all

universal things like we can connect with them as human beings but because we haven't had um plays that that showcase dark-skinned black women as romantic leads that's it because we haven't had um plays that that showcase dark-skinned black women as romantic leads that's it because we haven't had plays that showcase specifically congolese culture and nigerian culture because we haven't had plays that you know really kind of look at these two black british characters and all their nuances and complexities and also sort of say they are everybody it feels really really really important that that we're we're saying that that we're being specific and and i think that really helps with with with us seeing ourselves in this space and also ensuring that that other people feel seen and held so that's that's that's i think what we talk about when

we talk about the erasure of black women and And I feel like this play and this show is hopefully doing a little bit of work in rebalancing that. Would you say, Heather? Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Having a dark skinned black female lead feels like radical, actually. I think often there's more cases where you see kind of uh black men in those in those situations but me also being this idea of like beauty and desire it's just wonderful and you see the audience members some see some young black women just looking at me saying like that

could be me like so I think and there's something about when you see it you believe it to be true so um I think Bene's doing a real radical thing of shifting the canon in terms of when we talk about romantic leads. I think it's also, you're obviously representing people of colour that are watching it, but I think you're also bringing people who are not of colour into

a world that maybe they are not as familiar with and it opens doors and shifts. I have to tell her because I know we have the Congolese-Nigerian diaspora.

But you know shift in Ireland what it would have been when I was growing up? What was that? It meant to kiss somebody. No way. To shift somebody which I thought was

quite fun as well. There's a bit of that in the play. There is a little bit of that. To shift somebody, which I thought was quite fun as well. There's a bit of that in the play. There is a little bit of that, maybe quite a lot of that in the play, which the audience are really into as well. That was Benedict Lombe and Heather Agipong, and Shifters is at the Duke of York's Theatre in London until the 12th of October. Do join Nuala on Monday, where she'll be joined live in the studio by Emmy-nominated

actors Carrie Coon and Elizabeth Olsen to discuss their new film, His Three Daughters. And as kids are set to go back to school for the new term, we'll also be talking about the pressure on mums to make friends at the school gates and how this might impact their children's own friendships. That's with Nuala McGovern at 10am here on Radio 4 or catch up with any of our episodes on BBC Sounds. That's all from me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm off to dance to some Gumbian music. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.