Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Katie Price, Anne Hathaway and Jessica Chastain, Biba exhibition

Episode Date: March 30, 2024

Model turned TV personality Katie Price joins Clare McDonnell to talk about her views on young women getting cosmetic surgery, after having several procedures herself.It’s 60 years since the first Biba shop opened and the Fashion and Textile Museum in London have just launched a new exhibition: The Biba Story - 1964-1975. On until September, it explores how the fashion phenomenon blossomed to become the world’s first lifestyle label. Nuala McGovern speaks to its founder, Barbara Hulanicki, and the curator of the exhibition, Martin Pel.Australian politician Georgie Purcell is the youngest woman in the parliament of the state of Victoria. From posting TikToks about animal rights, politics, and beer, to archiving her life achievements with tattoos and sharing photos of herself pole dancing – she is definitely not your average politician. She’s also been a target of almost constant sexist attacks and abuse, which on occasions made her fear for her life. Georgie talks to Nuala about why she's still determined to get more women into politics.Described as a grim portrayal of human nature, Mothers’ Instinct is a film about the darker side of maternal love. Academy Award-winning actresses Jessica Chastain and Anne Hathaway play best friends raising sons of the same age in the same neighbourhood. The psychological thriller follows their apparently picture-perfect life in Sixties suburbia. The two friends in real life join Nuala to discuss.TM Payne, or Tina, spent the last two decades working in the criminal justice system, specialising in domestic abuse. She’s now turned her hand to writing and is set to publish her first crime novel on the 1 April. She talks about her years in policing and her new-found passion for fiction.And MOBO Award-winning singer and songwriter, Zara McFarlane, one of the UK's leading jazz vocalists. She will be appearing at this year’s Cheltenham Jazz Festival. Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, our special edition on Saturdays where we gather some of the best bits of Woman's Hour from the past week into one superb listen for you. I'm Claire Macdonald. Coming up today, there is Anne Hathaway. She stars alongside Jessica Chastain in the new psychological thriller Mother's Instinct. Both actors spill the beans about what it's like to make the film together as best friends, playing best friends, until they weren't.

Also, the Australian MP Georgie Purcell, from posting TikToks about animal rights, politics and beer, to archiving her life's achievements with tattoos and sharing photos of herself pole dancing. Georgie Purcell is not your average politician. Only a certain type of woman is accepted into public life. And I'm certainly pushing up against that. I'm trying to change the narrative and change what a politician is and what a politician looks like. Also, the jazz singer Zara McFarlane celebrates the centenary of her idol,

the legendary jazz singer Sarah Vaughan. And Bieber, as it celebrates its 60th anniversary, co-founder Barbara Holonicky takes us back to its heyday in London. All that, much more to come as well. So if you can, grab yourself a cuppa and settle in. Now, you'll be no stranger to the model-turned-TV personality well-known in the 90s as Jordan. I'm talking about Katie Price, of course, whose rise to fame has meant her personal life

and children have been in the spotlight, especially her care for her disabled son, Harvey. Well, this week, Katie has been speaking out about the potential dangers young women face, particularly those in their early 20s, when they decide to have cosmetic procedures. She's previously admitted and spoken openly about having procedures herself. I asked Katie why she's decided now to speak out. When I started in my career as Jordan back in the 90s, there was no airbrushing, there was no tweaking, there was no social media, it was all print. But nowadays it's changed, it's all social media

and now you have access to filters, this and that. And I think girls want to look like filters. But when I look back, when I had my first food job at 18, I think it's so young. I think it should be 21. Because I look at Princess, she'll be 18 in a year. And I'm like, oh, my God. Now I can see what my mum saw, when she was like, no, no, you're too young. But at the time, no, I'm having it when I'm 18 in a year and I'm like, oh my God, now I can see what my mum saw when she was like, no, no, you're too young. But at the time, no, I'm having it when I'm 18. But what girls do now in their early 20s or even younger, they're having all this filler done in their faces, all their lips done. They all look the same. And what are they going to look like when they're 45 now I'm not going to sit here like a

hypocrite I've had surgery do my lips but I'm 45 do you know absolutely I'm not 20 I'm not younger than 20 I think there's a lot of practitioners out there who need to start being responsible what you're saying is the apps and all the kind of the differences, the artificial differences, the augmentations you can make to your face. So you see a version of yourself reflected back that isn't what you see in the mirror. So they've got this kind of they've got this unrealistic ideal that they then try and replicate in their real life. Yes, but I don't think they see the dangers. I've been around the world and seen different surgeons for different things. And the thing is, I know about filler.

You might have filler, but eventually when it drops, it can drop and it gives you that Georgia girl look, you know, the ghoul look. You mentioned your daughter Princess, and I know you've said this in a previous interview, that actually everything that you've been through that you've done to your body has put your daughter your children off from even thinking about doing things uh like that um does that concern you as you said you already brought it up that they might actually now go well actually mum it's not such a bad thing well I think what people don't see is when you're online

and you look at, like, surgery or anything like that, you see before and after pictures. What you don't see is the in-between bit. You know, after your general anaesthetic, you know, how painful it is, the bruising, the stitching, what it's like to have the stitches out and can't move, you're sore, you're this. You don't see that. You just see, oh, that's, what it's like to have the stitches out and can't move, you're sore, you're this, you don't see that, you just see, oh, that's before, that's after. And I think people

need to be educated, any kind of surgery or procedure you have, like even like little procedures on your face, you might get bruised and it might look like you've got a black eye. And I think if girls want surgery or anything like that, on these social media pages, when you see before and after from these companies, my advice is don't just go abroad and stuff because it's cheaper. Why don't you contact some of the people on there who have done the before and after, which is message them and say, look, I'm thinking of having this done.

What was it really like? What do you say? Absolutely. And that's great advice. But what do you say to people? Because I know you've also said you wouldn't rule out having surgical procedures again. What do you say to people listening to this to say, well, it's a bit rich coming from that kind of message of be careful, do your research coming from somebody who's actually done quite a lot to her own body. Is that the best voice to hear it from well I am 46 in May I should hope people would think that I'm an adult not a child and I've

researched I know the good places to go I've been there I've done it I've had the disasters and had to have things redone again but I talk about it I'm not one of these people who say, oh, no, I'm natural, I've not had anything done. Anything I have had done, I'm always open about. And whether I think it works or if it hurts or if it's worth doing, there's a lot of people out there who have had stuff done. They're like, oh, no, I'm natural. You know what I mean?

You have been very honest recently talking about what happened to you as a child. You were a victim of child rape when you were just seven years old. And then that kind of, you know, went through your life. There was a lot of abuse in the relationships you got involved in. From the point you are standing now in your life as a woman in her mid-40s, do you look back on those deeply traumatic events and think how that informed you, how that informed how you see yourself,

how you see your own body, how you present yourself to the world? Do you make a connection between the two? Do you know, I never used to, but everyone used to use the word, have I got body dysmorphia? And I'm always like, no, no. But maybe I think I have because my mum

she worked it out in her book she's like whenever Kate goes through a traumatic time or something she goes to have surgery like I've never thought I was pretty I was always needed until I had therapy when I had therapy I learned self self-worth validation and all of that I didn't really have that because remember I started my career when I was younger when I was 17 so I suppose it's always trying to tweak something to make me feel good or this or I don't I feel ugly like till this day I still don't think I'm pretty or anything but now I'm an adult and I I am what I am I don't have surgery to look younger I don't know I don't know what it is but I definitely have a relationship with the surgery I think about

not feeling probably good enough or needy or not very pretty so you recognize that yes it does and you recognize that now but you're still not quite through it is that what you're saying you can't quite leave it behind you can't quite accept yourself for the beautiful woman that you are you know I do now like not 100% but nearly there and I think that's because I had the therapy to you know like I say the self-worth validation realizing no I'm actually good to be with. I don't need to be needed. I don't need a man if I want a man because I want them, whereas before I'd be, like, needy.

Yeah, or maybe it stems from abuse when I was younger. I remember I started this industry. I was starting to be a registered nurse and never finished that because I got straight into age three in the sun. When I look back, it's a baby. I'm like a baby and I'm still here. So I've grown up in the media, which isn't a normal way to grow up anyway,

not a normal life to have anyway. But you are a survivor and you've been an incredible carer, an incredible voice for autistic children, severely disabled, your son, Harvey. You've stood, obviously, stood by him his entire life. And you mentioned recently that a lot of situations in your life, you feel that if men hadn't been involved, you wouldn't have ended up where you are. But do you look on all of those experiences you've been through and you come out as a survivor to think you've been tested to quite a severe

extent you are still standing does that not make you incredibly proud of your own forthrightness the media is different these days it used to be fun when i was younger but i think nowadays they are so brutal not just on me so brutal they just don't care they want to sell their papers they don't care that I'm a human being they don't care that I've got family and friends that read the stuff they don't care I am just a product to them you know I've been in the priory as an inpatient twice for severe PTSD they know about it they know that the media does damage me now because I used to just hide it do interviews and go yeah I'm fine I'm fine when inside really I was like I'm not fine help I need help I can't cope with all of this

but you have to do that because if I didn't go to work who would because I'm my I am the work does that make sense and then I got help for it and it made me open my brain up to realize look you do have problems or some it's not the end of the world you just communication is key for any situation when you're depressed or have a breakdown I mean I could talk to you for hours about stuff like oh we'd love to talk to you for hours. But with the Harvey stuff as well, because I do stand up for Harvey and disability, because at the end of the day, we're all different.

Just because you've got a disability doesn't mean to say you should be treated different. And it goes back to when I did a programme about Frankie Boyle. He was taking the mickey out of Harvey on stage. But I always say to people, just remember, you might think your life's perfect, but one day any member of your family could have an accident or something and become disabled or something,

and you have to become their full-time carer. So always remember, never judge anything, because it can happen to you. Katie Price there. Now to a little reminiscing of the glory days of a brand that revolutionised British fashion. It's 60 years since the first Bieber shop opened in Abington Road in Kensington, London. To mark that anniversary, the Fashion and Textile Museum in London has opened a new exhibition, The Bieber Story, 1964 to 1975. In just over a decade, Bieber went from a small mail order business to a seven-storey department store

with everything you could possibly want in it, created by Barbara Holoniki, along with her husband Fitz, Stephen Fitzsimons. Not only did Bieber transform how women accessed fashion from the experience of trying on clothes to the cost, it was also very much a company run by women for women, even offering a creche in one of the shops. Barbara and the curator of the current exhibition, Martin Pell, joined Nula earlier this week to discuss how this fashion phenomenon blossomed to become the world's first lifestyle label. Nuala asked Barbara what she remembered about those early days. It was very tough.

Yeah. It was very tough to be thrown right into the production of clothes but Fitz and I did it together and we certainly learned very quickly by all the mistakes we made. What do you think was the biggest challenge in those times? Because things, when I read about Bieber, it looks like things happened very fast. Absolutely. Within weeks, you know, I mean, literally every day he went to collect the mail which was in Oxford Street, which was sacks and sacks of orders. It was

just beyond. So this is like the Brigitte Bardot inspired pink gingham dress. It was produced in 1964. It had this keyhole back and a little matching kerchief. You sold 17,000 of them. What do you think, looking back, was the appeal of that item?

Felicity Green, the mirror, commanded this dress to be designed at 25 shillings, understood the market. This market of 15-year-olds who had left home And she was completely in tots with that. I think it sort of hit the right mood, hit the right people, which was so interesting. Trying to find, I can imagine, the fabric for 17,000 dresses and matching kerchiefs could not

have been easier. But let me turn back to the inspiration for Biba. The name is so catchy. Where did it come from? Oh, it's funny. Fitz came and said, do you got a name for it? I said, no. Yes, well, let's think of something. And

I thought, well, it's an abbreviation of my sister's name, which is Lithuanian, and Biba from Biruta. And it had to be feminine and young. And my sister never forgave me for... I thought, Barbara, I thought she'd be delighted. No, she said it's everyone. You know, it was such a successful brand. I mean, one thing if it

didn't get off the ground, but instead it became, well, let's talk about what it became, Martin. I mean, for people who weren't around at that time or hanging out in the seven stories of Biba, having a great time, like it was kind of a clubby atmosphere from what I read. tell us a little bit more about its impact and its significance well I think people did change the way that people dressed people change change people's lives I mean this exhibition we've got people coming around and just sort of sharing their memories of it and when we did the exhibition in Brighton you'd have

groups of women that didn't know each other and they'd sort of stand in front of these garments that they'd been able to afford because we sort of can't understand today yeah that at that time affordable fashion didn't really exist you used to be sort of taken to a department store and dressed for the season you didn't buy clothes for that moment and so it transformed the way that people dressed and i think people have hung on to the way that they felt when they wore Viva clothes. And as I said. But also it was freedom to get away from your parents because children had no say. I mean, I know they were 15 year old, but they weren't supposed to know what they're doing.

And everybody left home and went to London and got a job typing, earned money. The big draw to London was the bands and the music and going out at night and just mixing together with one age group. It was very exciting. So that was the swinging 60s in London. And many people have talked about Biba being the first lifestyle brand, which, of course, we're familiar with now. But even selling baked beans? Well, that exploded.

Oh, did they? Oh, I didn't hear about that. Years later. In a museum. Not at the time. With Big Biba, people were able to go into a store and sort of have that beaver experience. Like, you know, you could literally live, sleep and eat beaver. And also the boys like big beans.

You have to look after the boys. The woman gets a wide-brimmed hat and a nice suit and the guy gets a can of beans. What do you remember, Barbara, though, off that time? I'm thinking if you walked through the doors and seven stories that you have been instrumental in creating, what was that like? It was terrifying because you couldn't tidy it up very quickly.

So it was always a kind of big chaos of merchandise, which they were allowed to touch. Most stores and shops, you always had an assistant who sort of said, this is your thing for you. And you weren't allowed to rummage among things. Like lots was going on, right? It was kind of the excitement which I read about getting in there and getting the latest fashion and trying it on. Changing rooms were chaotic and great fun with music. It's quite something to think of because I'm trying to think, is there something like that

now? What do you think, is there something like that now? What do you think, Martin? No. No, Barbara. It was an experiment and an experience that just was going to happen once. It was all about being indulgent, you know, so you could go into the homeware department and you could have a Beaver bedroom, but you could take your sort of pick of Beaver bedrooms.

You could have it in leopard print. You could have it in all different decor so it was it was massively indulgent and you didn't have to buy something you could just go in and experience it and have a day in beaver and then go home to your ordinary life and it was edited for you because wherever fabrics there was always fab colors for the tights thank you m, Mary Quant. And there was makeup colors. So people knew they didn't have to look at magazines. They could just look there and find out what the next step was. Makeup was huge.

Yes, yeah. Did you expect the makeup to be so successful? No, because when we started with one color which was a chocolate color to make it look like sepia and that was tough enough to find and get people to manufacture for you even although you told them i'm paying but it was because essentially these guys, these manufacturers, just didn't trust you because you were young women in business and you'd go in with these ideas of what makeup could be and they would just poo-poo it because it was just not...

Because they were looking at the figures. The last big sale was horrible dark pink something or other. But it was phenomenally successful because you know it's huge three continents yeah three years i thought also reading about the cosmetics aspect of it that you were the first that was doing it in the uk for for black skin oh yes the foundation yeah yes because our color scheme for all the other bits, the eyes and things, was very strong. But we had lots of girls from the Commonwealth working for us, plus loads and loads of customers, and there was no foundation.

It was all too pale. So it was only obvious to do higher colours. You also did a make-up range for men. Yes. Bieber was very inclusive before it was a thing, you know. Now everyone's, as they should be, keen that everyone is catered to. But back in the day, that wasn't the case. No, God.

So you would do cosmetics range for black girls. You'd advertise in the gay press press which hadn't been done before and it's not just a tiny little advert these are this is like four page massive advert and obviously newspapers run on their advertising budget so you supported the sort of gay community when people weren't doing it in the 90s that all these companies were seen as being edgy. Not only gay, the musicians needed sort of more exotic clothes. Yeah. And they always bought all the sequined jackets. But Big Viva was a sort of unofficial hub of that rock scene.

Absolutely. How much fun, Barbara? Did you have a ball? I did. Exhausting. No, it was amazing. It was very emotional, you know, it was very exciting. And loads of reaction to that interview. Here are just a few. Carol emailed, I still have my Bieber baked bean tin, which I carefully turned into a piggy bank,

and a lovely glass jar, which once contained a spinach mask for normal to dry skin. Both are on my bookshelves as I type. Hilary got in touch saying I came to London as a student nurse in 1961. I started a nurse's column in the student's magazine and remember featuring Bieber in a fashion section using nurses as models. As I remember the first shop was in Kensington Church Street. I have no idea how I first found out about it, but I remember buying and loving wearing those affordable clothes. Of course, we did not have much money to spend as nurses. And Jackham got in touch as well. What a great shop. I was one of those girls who came to London in 1969 to start living my life. Bieber was on Kensington Church Street then. I walked in,

I was amazed. I followed it when it became like a department store. I still have the clothes from there and a navy blue velvet lampshade with a long fringe. All the little buttons, all those details were marvellous. I remember rushing over from Camden Town on finding out they were selling lobster tails for 10 bob. What a lovely piece to hear thank you thank you jackham for getting in touch as well now georgie purcell is the youngest woman in the parliament of the australian state of victoria from posting tiktoks about animal rights politics and beer to archiving her life achievements with tattoos and sharing photos of herself pole dancing. Georgie Purcell is not your average politician.

She's also been a target of almost constant online sexist attacks and abuse, which on occasions made her fear for her life. Earlier this year, the whole world heard about her after a local news channel in Melbourne digitally altered a photo of her to give her larger breasts and more revealing clothing. Channel 9 later apologised for the edits, but the whole episode opened up a debate

about how some media outlets treat women in politics. Nuala welcomed Georgie to Woman's Hour and asked her how things had been since that photo edit. I was completely overwhelmed by the response and I think the first thing that I would say is I probably didn't realise just how horrific it was to have my body photoshopped until I went public with it and I saw the response. And I think that's a really good example of how hardened and desensitised you get and you become as a woman in politics because

you deal with situations like this all of the time, but it certainly spurred a conversation, not just with women in public life, but women in everyday life and the threat that image altering poses to all of us. I just want to read the apology that News 9 gave to you, Georgie. Nine News Melbourne boss Hugh Nalen said he unreservedly apologised to Miss Purcell

for what he described as the graphic error. He says, as is common practice, the image was resized to fit our specs. During that process, the automation by Photoshop created an image that was not consistent with the original. This did not meet the high editorial standards we have. Adobe, instead, which produces Photoshop, said any changes to this image would

have required human intervention and approval. So a war of words there. But it basically was a much more sexualised image that was put out of you instead of the photo that should have been there originally. And what was the reaction to that photo photo did you get support or was it backlash yeah so of course so for those who haven't seen the photo I was given larger breasts and my dress was turned into a two-piece and I actually noticed initially that it wasn't the original photo because I had these like chiseled abs that I definitely don't have but my stomach's heavily tattooed anded and the skin was bare. So I pulled up the original and put them side by side and I realised that it had

quite significant alteration. And when I posted it online, the response was overwhelming. I mean, obviously it's gone international. That's why I'm here speaking with you all. But I received an outpouring of support. But with it, again, an absolute pylon of misogynistic and sexist abuse online, which has become a real feature of my life in politics. that are concerned about that abuse and the fear, of course, of it going into your day-to-day life as you interact with people as well. Do you get any protection and how bad has it got, if you don't mind me asking? Yeah, it's quite significant. There's been a big conversation around making our parliament safer places for women around the world. And Australia is no different. We've had some pretty severe incidents in our parliament houses. And I think we have done some work to make them safer buildings. The thing that terrifies me is my biggest threat. It walks around with me every

day. It's in my handbag or it's in my pocket and that's my mobile phone. And it's terrifying to know that our laws don't really protect us from what people say to us online. Gendered violence isn't a crime unless it's a very specific threat. And I do report things. I do have a wonderful security team that looks after me. And the parliament here does great work knowing that I have become a target. But I do fear it's only a matter of time until that escalates. And I know that there have been other female members of

parliament that have had, you know, real life confrontations and public confrontations. And it shouldn't get to that point, right? We should be safe everywhere we go, just as our male counterparts are. Is there anything you feel that could be done to protect you? Yeah, we need to strengthen our anti-vilification laws and that's something we've been talking about here in Victoria. We have laws that protect people of certain descriptors and of certain identities. We've been speaking about protecting women from this online abuse

that only seems to continue to grow. People are emboldened by being anonymous online and expressing their views about someone in a way that they don't realise has significant harm. Just because I'm in public life does not make me public property and a lot of men fail to realise that. And while I have become, I guess, used to dealing with this, it shouldn't be the case. And the reality

is people watch what happens to me and they might want to enter public life. They might be a young woman that wants to go into politics. And my biggest fear is they will see the way that I'm treated and be deterred. And that is fundamentally the worst thing for democracy because then we don't have a diversity of voices or a parliament that truly reflects society. So that is precisely why I continue to call it out and will continue to until it changes. And everything that I looked at, you know, you wore a dress covered with words of hate that you received while doing your job on International Women's Day. It was like brain dead bimbo, tatted up trash bag. There was an awful lot to do with gender, with sexuality. And I know you came across this also from work you did when you were younger, when you were 19, you were a stripper. You put that now as part of your bio, along with being a vegan animal activist, along with having numerous degrees in law and politics and communications and also being the youngest member of parliament in Victoria state. And I'm wondering how you see that because it's really been this trajectory

of people trying to shame you, I think I would say. Yeah, that's right. I think we have done a lot of work to welcome women into politics. The parliament that I sit in actually now has equal amounts of men and women, and that's fantastic. But still only a certain type of woman is accepted into public life. And I'm certainly pushing up against that. I'm trying to change the narrative and change what a politician is and what a politician looks like and what they might have done with their past. Because again, we don't have a good functioning parliament or a good functioning democracy unless we're representing everyone. And I represent a certain constituency and I receive a lot of support for that from them. But it certainly

challenges people that I am going in there truly and authentically as myself and not hiding parts of myself like so many women in politics are unfortunately forced to do in order to rise up in their parties and get elected. I'm looking at you right now I can see in your hands some very colourful tattoos on your fingers and your hands and I know you have more because as I looked into your profile yesterday, Georgie, but with that, I know that you suffered from PTSD earlier when your job as a stripper, as a topless waitress when you were 19, putting yourself through college, when that was revealed or exposed. This is before you got into politics. And I'm just wondering, how did you manage that mentally and to be able to be resilient enough to put yourself into a place that is known to be so brutal? That is the world of politics. to your first question, how did I manage mentally? I didn't. And I really made that clear because I suffered tremendously through that period in my life. And I could not even go to university,

let alone step foot in the Victorian Parliament and speak in front of all of my colleagues. It was a really, really long journey to get there. And I spent many years reflecting on the fact that I was going into my new workplaces and, you know, being a professional and hiding this part of my past because my biggest fear was that my colleagues would find out about it, just like my university peers did. And I actually spoke to a great friend of mine who was a politician and she was the first ever sex worker to get elected to any parliament around the world and I I told her what I was bearing down and she said to me when I'm when I'm ready I should tell my story because it will be um the biggest you know most fundamental

uh form of healing for me so I I somehow got some bravery and I did and I was just working as a political staffer then. And something shifted in me then. It was like taking back my power and owning my story and realising that what happened to me when I was at university wasn't shameful for me. It was shameful by the people who did it to me. And that's exactly why I've made it part of my story in politics, because the sad reality is if I don't

make it something that I'm proud of and something that I'm not ashamed to share, someone will use it against me. And again, that just hurts women, particularly unique women or different women from wanting to do this as well. And but I certainly wasn't in the place that I am now where I own it and I'm proud of it and I'm not afraid to share it. And I hope that other women who have experienced the same thing, because it's not a unique experience, will get there as well. Georgie Purcell. Still to come on the programme, the author T.M. Payne. They always say, write about what you know,

and that's precisely what Tina Payne has done, turning her two-decade career in the police service into a debut crime thriller packed full of gritty realism. And music from the Mobo Award-winning singer and songwriter Zara McFarlane, one of the UK's leading jazz vocalists. Remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week just subscribe to the daily podcasts for free via BBC sounds and if you'd like to send us your thoughts on anything on the programme you can text woman's hour on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate you can check in with your network provider for exact costs and on social media media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website.

Mother's Instinct is a new film that opens in the UK this week, starring Academy Award-winning actors Jessica Chastain and Anne Hathaway. They play best friends raising sons of the same age in the same neighbourhood. This psychological thriller follows their apparently picture-perfect life in 60s suburbia. Nuala had the pleasure of speaking to Jessica and Anne about the film and their friendship in real life was evident. Nuala asked Anne what it was like playing her character, Celine.

To use a word that I think people are becoming more familiar with, she's very unhealed. I think that she has a very happy layer on top of a lot of turmoil. And so when that top layer is removed and you actually see what she's been dealing with, the pain that she's been living with and what it makes her do, how it makes her treat the people around her, how it makes her treat herself, It should be shocking. But when you consider a society that doesn't allow a full expression of oneself based on arbitrary factors like gender, maybe it isn't that shocking. Gosh, when you talk about layers, I'm thinking of one point when you

have a black lace mantilla over your face and I'm trying to see in your eyes what it is that you're trying to get across. It's interesting. That's quite evocative to me as you speak. It's called Mother's Instinct. I was wondering, I mean, it's a controversial term, maternal instinct. Lots of debates about that. Do you believe in it, Jessica? Absolutely. The most dangerous animal that you come across in the wild is a mother, like a mother bear, a mother, any animal that is with her cubs and her children. So absolutely. I believe in a mother's instinct. And you're nodding. Me? Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes. I've experienced it many times myself where you sort of go from, uh, like pleasant to beast very fast. And you're like, Oh, well, let's, um, let's, let's remember that everything's probably going to be okay.

So yeah, I do. I believe in instincts, you know, so maybe this is just a particular way of identifying one. Do you think it's different to paternal instinct? Well, maybe we could just say parental instincts. Maybe we never see them butt up against each other. They only work together. But yeah, I think an extreme instinct towards a protective love. And maybe we could just put it that way. Yeah, which then leads to this amazing thriller. How was it to work together as pals? Well, I want to work with her again. I would love to work with Annie where we don't have an extreme conflict.

Or like we could work in fashion um uh but it was I mean she's really incredible she uh can just switch on a dime you know you see these actresses who really kind of have to rev it up for a long time. And she's not like that. I mean, of course, it's inside of her, but she's professional. And then once the camera's rolling, she's really able to conjure up this depth of feeling. And I mean, it's why she is the actor she is and celebrated the way that she has been. And it's not just actors, of course, you're both listed as producers on this film and Jessica, your female ledled production company Freckle Films, which I have to say as a redhead, I quite enjoy that name of your company, produced the film.

Is it getting easier to get the things made that you want to get made as a woman? Anne, what do you think? The part that my ear pricked to in that sentence was the things that you want to get made. And I think that it's a whole process in terms of becoming an artist, not just figuring out how you get things made, but what it is you want to see out there and why. I hope it's getting easier. I certainly think that there's more conversation happening. I think that there are certain statistics, numbers that are showing us that, yeah, progress is being made. There's also statistics that show it's not happening quickly enough and it's not happening enough for everyone in the same way. So I'm always very, very hesitant to celebrate, but I do see more inclusivity in terms of storytelling. I think you just need to look at the Best Picture nominees this year at the Oscars. And there's a much wider variety of stories being told than 10

years ago. So there's a phrase that I really love. It's a Creole phrase, and it's piti a piti luazo fe sonnid. And it means little by little, the bird builds its nest. And I sort of feel like that's what we're all doing. We're all contributing to it little by little. And hopefully inside of a generation, they won't really know what it is that we're going on about. We'll have the whole tree maybe with money, money and ass. What about it, Jessica? What do you think stands in the way? Oh, well, I think, you know, with independent cinema too,

there's a lot that stands in the way. I think, you know, we just had a pandemic. We're heading back into the theaters. I think we're trying to figure out the model of making films and with streaming being involved i think there's a lot of unanswered questions i do see a difference um from when i started in the industry about 12 years ago in terms of women's stories or stories you know um about as Annie says, not just gender variety, but there's just more variety in storytelling. And so we're not coming from one demographic over and over again. So I do see a

difference. And I see a difference in terms of more actresses producing, which is really inspiring to me, because those are the markers that young girls notice notice and then they realize it's possible. And so, yes, little by little, we're making our nest. And I love the fact that you're friends, that you met years ago, but have managed then to create this baby, making a play on the mother's instinct. But I was reading, and I don't know, you can't believe everything you read on the Internet, but that you were hoping to start a book club, the two of you, with Emily Blunt. Is that true? I tried. I tried. They were working and I was not. Jessica Chastain and Anne Hathaway there and Mother's Instinct is out now. Now, where do crime authors get their inspiration from? The news, reading Agatha Christie, the classics, or how about real life policing experience?

Well, for my next guest, it's most definitely the latter. T.M. Payne, or Tina, as she's more commonly known, worked for just under two decades in the criminal justice system, eventually specialising in domestic violence as a police case investigator. She's now turned her hand to writing. Her debut novel, Long Time Dead, tells the story of Detective Inspector Sheridan Holler. She's tasked with solving the murder of a drug dealer who's been missing for the last seven years.

And with a key witness who's physically unable to speak, it's up to her to work out who done it. I asked Tina what made her want to write this book. I have always said by the time I was 40, I wanted to write a novel. And it was always going to be crime fiction. I'm 57, so I'm a little bit late. But I've always had an overactive imagination and I've always had loads of stories in my head.

It was just having the time to get them down on paper. I had an idea for Long Time Dead about seven or eight years ago and it was literally one line come into my head and I can't tell you what you're looking at What was it? I can't, can I tell you afterwards? Tell me afterwards because we don't want to give away any spoilers We don't but there was one line and I can't say what it is because it will give a big part of the story away

and I thought you know what I can make a story out of this literally one line so I started writing it but I was working full-time in the police and life gets in the way we've all busy so I kind of dipped in and out of it and then when I moved up to the Wirral in 2019 I'd left the police moved up to the Wirral to live with my partner and the plan was to apply to Merseyside Police domestic abuse unit. Then Covid hit. So all I could do was sit and write and I got the book finished.

It must have been so incredibly difficult to have this kind of inspiration always wanting to write inside you but doing a job that you loved that must have been, before you made that move incredibly demanding. You worked with victims of domestic violence a job that you loved and a job that obviously has influenced a lot uh in your debut

novel yeah that sounds like a very very tough job to do though day in day out it was um i did it for i actually joined the unit for on a six month attachment um my sergeant i was a detention officer working in the police cells before i joined the domestic violence unit and My sergeant, I was a detention officer working in the police cells before I joined the domestic violence unit. And my sergeant came to me one day and said, do you fancy six months on the domestic violence unit? I said, yeah, I'll give that a go. And I was given my first case a couple of months later. And I remember it took me nine months to actually gather all the evidence. And I got the case to court and we got a conviction and I remember walking out of the court with the victim who I'd spent so much time with and she

literally just wrapped her arms around me and she just said thank you so so much and I thought this is what I want to do we didn't win every case obviously but I just felt there was something about protecting people protecting victims men and men and women, children, from domestic abuse. Yeah, I had a passion about it, and the unit I worked with were passionate about it as well. And proving that you could get the result that was the right result. I mean, there is this report by the Charity End Violence Against Women that shows that on average it takes 893 days

from a victim's first report to the police and its conclusion in court. And we know that lots of people don't come forward, men and women, in these cases. What is it like working on and trying to convince people to come and talk to you, to open up their lives? It must be an incredibly sensitive line to walk. Absolutely, because you have to be honest with the victim. And I've obviously met, I was in the unit for 14 years, thousands of victims. And you're always honest with them because what they'll say is, if I give you a statement, will he be arrested? Let's say it's a female victim I'm dealing with.

Will he be arrested? Will I have to go to court? Will he be convicted? And the answer is, I can't answer that. And I will never say to a victim, yes, of course, but there are lots of safety measures in place. There's lots of support for victims of domestic abuse. But you talk about the length of time it takes from the initial incident to getting the case to court. And that's where a lot of victims will back away and say, I can't go through this anymore because it just takes too long. And they start to think, actually, maybe I shouldn't do this. And they worry, they panic. They might have had to move into a refuge. Their lives change.

And I wanted to reflect a little bit of domestic abuse in Long Time Dead in my debut novel. Yes, well, I was going to ask you about that because one of the domestic abuse victims you feature is your lead character, D.I. Sheridan, her sidekick, Anna, who is a police officer herself. So why did you decide to make her character the victim of this? Because I think I wanted to show that anyone can be a victim. And when I was in the job, I dealt with a couple of police officers who were victims. And I remember them saying, how did I not see this coming?

Because most police officers will have, whether they're uniform or CID or they're specialists, will have dealt with domestic abuse victims. And they're like, how did I not see this coming? I deal with this. Because they're so involved in their own personal relationship, they don't see it coming. And I wanted to show with Anna Markinson that she can be a victim like anybody can. I mean, you've done so much of this now, but do you see the pattern? Do you see that control that is exerted over people? If someone's listening to this now and thinks, that's me, I'm in that cycle, what would you say to them?

There is help out there. There is help out there. Even if you walked into a police station, obviously I worked in Norfolk Police and I know that if a victim walked into a police station and said, I need help, my unit would be contacted and someone would come and speak to you. And we would talk through everything with you, whether you want to make a statement.

It might not be violence. It might be controlling coercive behaviour. And most forces, I say I can only speak for Norfolk, but most forces have got a dedicated domestic abuse unit. And it might not be a police officer you want to speak to. So there will be support out there for victims. And I would encourage every victim, man or male or female, to come forward. police officer you want to speak to so there are there will be support out there for victims and i i would encourage every every victim man or male or female to come forward um and report i had a

chat when i was in norfolk who rang the unit and said um i really want to report my wife for domestic abuse and i said okay and he said the problem is he said i'm six foot five and i'm a builder he said and my wife is five foot one and she is tiny. He said, if I make a statement about her being violent towards me, how is anyone going to ever believe me if I stood up in a court? I spent a lot of time talking to him. He never came forward and made a complaint, but there's just one barrier.

Do you know what I mean? We don't have much time left. Some of those cases still keep you awake at night. They don't keep me awake, but I don't forget them. I don't forget the women and men that I dealt with. They'll always be there. Yeah, so it gets to you and it stays with you. Author T.M. Payne.

Wednesday marked the centenary of the birth of the pioneering jazz singer Sarah Vaughan. Nicknamed Sassy and the Divine One, Sarah was revered not just for her incomparable vocal range, but for its depth, control, emotion and playfulness. She won two Grammy Awards and was described by one critic as having one of the most wondrous voices of the 20th century. Zara McFarlane is one of the UK's leading jazz vocalists and one of Sarah Vaughan's biggest fans. She has created a show about Sarah's

life and music and will be appearing at this year's Cheltenham Jazz Festival. Nuala asked her what it was about Sarah Vaughan that compelled her to want to create that show. She literally has everything. She has the tone. She has charisma. She has style. She has flair. She tells the stories. She has the range. You know, most people know a lot about Billie Holiday. They know a lot about Ella Fitzgerald. But they don't always know as much about Sarah Vaughan. I feel she's kind of been a bit overlooked. Yeah, why do you think she flew under the radar, I wonder? I have no idea with regards to that. But with regards to this project,

it's a chance for me to kind of shine a spotlight on her because she's definitely my favourite jazz vocalist. You've recorded an album of some of Sarah's songs. It's due for release this summer. I can tell you're a huge fan. Was it difficult to know which ones to include? It was really, really hard, actually. I worked with a great musician called Giacomo Smith on this record. He produced the record and he also plays saxophone and clarinet

on this record. And, you know, there's so many great tunes. One thing about Sarah, she didn't write her own songs, but like many of the jazz singers, they sang the standards in the American Songbook. But so many great renditions of these different tunes. It was kind of a struggle to decide between the two of us, which ones do we want to showcase? But what we did decide to do in the end was try to showcase her 50 year career. So taking some things right across those decades, and maybe highlighting a few things that are not that familiar to people as well, either that she sang them or that they existed. But I want to know a little bit more about you. You were songwriting from an early age.

Tell me about that. I started songwriting from the age of about 11, actually. That is very young. And yeah, it's just something that I was doing for fun. I just enjoyed sitting by myself at the piano, had melodies in my head, I had things I felt like I wanted to say. I remember it was the first song that I wrote was about the bombing in Ireland back in the 90s. So I started writing, I would ask to perform them at school in assembly and things like that and put myself into different competitions. And was it always jazz you were interested in?

It wasn't necessarily. I kind of heard a little bit of jazz. It wasn't like my parents listened to a lot of jazz. They're Jamaican, so I heard a lot of reggae in the home. But I discovered definitely Nina Simone, Ella, people like that through probably the TV, to be honest with you. A lot of the time, some of these tracks

were on adverts, in movies. And then I started to explore further, seeking out the artists. And then as I got more involved in jazz later on, I was introduced to different artists like Diane Reeves, you know, different female singers. And I mentioned the Cheltenham Jazz Festival, but you're also going to Luxembourg to perform with a 99-piece orchestra. Have I got that right?

That is correct. Is that daunting, exciting daunting exciting exhilarating all of the things um i'm actually really really excited about that because we have um a gentleman called gast waltzing who has done the arrangements inspired by our versions of this new album that we've done with sarah of sarah vaughan's music but also he's incorporated some of the other things from my previous albums. Like my last album was very much an electronic album. It wasn't really a jazz album. So he's bringing in some of these elements to this performance as well. So that's really exciting.

I love hearing how the various genres, how you can cross over them. We're going to be doing a show on women and country music at the beginning of next week on Women's Hour. And that is also it's so interesting how people decide what path to take and how easy and sometimes difficult it can be to change between those paths, whether it's jazz, electronic or perhaps country and pop, for example. And you can hear Zara at Ronnie Scott's in London on the 3rd of May and at the Cheltenham Jazz Festival on the 5th of May. Before we go, another quick reminder.

On Easter Monday, you can hear Women's Hour's special broadcast, Women and Country Music. Country is having a bit of a moment. Beyonce has, of course, released Cowboy Carter and it comes as the UK embraces country like never before. We'll hear about the female icons, the diversity and origins and influence of country. But for now, that is Weekend Woman's Hour. Thanks for listening.

That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.