Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Keira Knightley and Sarah Lancashire, Sutara Gayle, Uterine fibroids, Surviving grief, Josie Lloyd

Episode Date: December 7, 2024

Powerhouse actors Keira Knightley and Sarah Lancashire are starring alongside Ben Wishaw in new Netflix spy drama Black Doves. It follows the story of a female spy seeking revenge for the murder of her lover – whilst outwardly being married to a high-ranking politician. Keira and Sarah spoke to Nuala McGovern about the drama, their careers and their experiences as women in the film industry.Sutara Gayle is an actor and reggae artist. She fuses music with memories of her eventful life in a new show: The Legends of Them. From hearing her radio debut whilst in Holloway Prison on remand, to the Brixton uprisings in 1985 that were sparked by the shooting of her sister, the show explores a hugely varied and at times deeply moving portrayal of her life, and the women who have shaped it. Sutara joined Anita Rani in the studio.Professor Nicola Rollock is best known for her academic research and writing on race and society. As a friend of the programme, she approached us to ask to talk about something more personal - her experience of uterine fibroids, something that affects around 70% of women, but this rises to 80% for black women. Nicola joined Nuala alongside Hilary Critchley, Professor of Reproductive Medicine at the University of Edinburgh, to discuss more.After the actor Anna Maxwell Martin spoke on the programme about the grief she experienced after her husband died suddenly in 2021, we were inundated with listeners sharing their stories. Two of them, Giselle De Hasse and Heather Ashley, joined Anita to talk about how they manage their grief day to day.Author Josie Lloyd joined Nuala to discuss her new novel featuring fictional Alice Beeton, the prim and organised owner of The Good Household Management Agency and distant relative of the real-life Victorian cookery and household writer Mrs Beeton. Alice and her ancestor share a love of recipes and an eye for detail, which comes in handy when Alice becomes involved in a cosy, Christmassy crime in Miss Beeton’s Murder Agency.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Louise Corley

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. On the programme today, the acting duo Sarah Lancashire and Keira Knightley, who've teamed up for the Netflix series Black Doves, which will have your hearts racing. When the actor Anna Maxwell-Martin was on a few weeks ago, she spoke very honestly about how her grief had impacted her life. And many of you got in touch with your own experiences of grief.

We speak to two listeners about how they coped. And some cosy crime with author Josie Lloyd and her new book, Miss Beaton's Murder Agency. Crime is a broad church, isn't it? And I would say that this is the tea and cakes in the church hall end of the broad church. You know, I'm quite squeamish, to be honest. You know, in a fight or flight situation

i'm out the door i am not the girl that is going to open the door the creaky door down to a basement and go down and have a look i'm just not and if that's not enough actor singer and reggae star sitara gail you may know her as lorna g will be performing for us we first met kira knightley as jewels in bend it like beckham she shot to global fame at 17 after her first appearance as Elizabeth in the Pirates of the Caribbean series. Since then, she's hit the big screen in a range of huge films from Pride and Prejudice to The Imitation Game. Her work has seen her nominated for two Oscars. Sarah Lancashire started out in the 1990s on Coronation Street. Since then, we've seen her in some huge TV dramas, including Happy Valley and Last Tango in Halifax.

She won a BAFTA for her roles in each of those. Now the two have teamed up alongside Ben Whishaw to star in a new Netflix spy thriller, Black Doves. It follows the story of Helen Webb, a woman who leads a double life as a politician's wife and a ruthless spy. When her lover is murdered, she sets about getting revenge alongside her colleague Sam, watched over by the steely-hearted Mrs Reid. Well, they both joined Nuala this week, and she began by asking Keira how she's finding this latest role. It is. It's a physical role. There are fight scenes. When I said yes to it,

there weren't. Oh, interesting. Ben Whishaw was doing all the fighting because he's playing the assassin and I thought, oh, great, you know, I'll learn my lines but I'll just go in.

I don't have to do any of that. And then rewrite after rewrite, you know, there are a couple of gun battles. I thought that's still okay and then suddenly I'm knife fighting and I'm jumping out of windows.

Yeah, so there was a lot of running about. I got very fit. I was about to say, what about the preparation for that? I did about a month beforehand I'm jumping out of windows. Yeah, so there was a lot of running about. I got very fit. I was about to say, what about the preparation for that? I did about a month beforehand and we did boxing and jiu-jitsu and some sort of Filipino knife fighting that has a very good name and I've forgotten what the name is. But, you know, I felt it was quite good on the school run.

Everybody was like, hey, how was your day? I'm fighting again. Yeah, it was quite exciting. And if we turn to Mrs. Reid, she wasn't that happy at times with some of your knife fights. No more knife fights, as she tells her at one point. Sarah, how would you describe your character? I would say she is almost a villain. Well, can we come back to that?

Because I was just thinking that actually you're sort of running around all over the place. And Reed is the most inert, static character that I have ever played. She just doesn't move. She either stands or lurks or sits. In the same coat. In the same coat. I have a wardrobe full of sort of great coats. Now, as I was talking about, would you describe your character as a villain? Well, I think she's firm, but fair.

Oh, gosh, she's firm. She would not describe her as a villain. I wouldn't. It's that strange thing, isn't it? When you're involved in, I suppose, in any organisation and you've sworn allegiance to them, then you really wouldn't question what you're doing. And she clearly isn't paid to have a moral compass at all. Highest bidder. She sells to the highest bidder. I mean, I think what I loved about the whole thing is there is a question mark over if

there are any goodies in this whatsoever, because I don't think my character may be a sociopath, you know, and Ben Whishaw's character is an assassin. I mean, we have the moral compass of all of them is deeply questionable. I think that's what draws you in, though, because you're trying to find out who's the goody, who's the baddy. But it's not linear like that in any way. When I watched it last night, I was watching it with my husband and a couple of times I go to bed quite early. I was like, we need to finish like this episode. I want to keep watching it. It's really good. He's like, she is, she, you, Keira slash Helen,

is really enjoying this. I was really enjoying it. I think my inner teenager was so thrilled. And I was like, it's the closest I've ever got to sort of playing a mafia boss or something, you know. So I was really enjoying it. But actually, Sarah, I would say you are the mafia boss. You are, in fact, the boss, yeah. Isn't it interesting? Because I've never really seen her as being a sort of a baddie in any

shape or... I'm not saying baddie, but she is taking no nonsense. Oh, no, I mean, she's quite, I think she's terrifying. I think she's terrifying. I mean, she's so controlled and controlling and really deft at what she does. Manipulation as well. She is. I mean, she's a fantastic, when I think about the psyche behind what informs who she is and how she's clearly given the best years of her life to this organisation.

And they call her Mrs. Reed. Yes. I don't think she's married. No, I don't think she's married. No, I don't think she's married. I think it's a fantastically convenient camouflage. That really struck me actually when she said Mrs. I don't see how she can be married because she knows too much. She's in an organisation where really, and unfortunately,

I mean, Helen is also in this organisation and you gather so much information that you become a liability to yourself and your own wellbeing. And so you become highly dispensable. Married to the job, perhaps. Yes. Kiri, you have said in interviews that you really related to the character of Helen. Is there something we need to know about your secret life? Yes, I am a spy.

Yes, you guessed it. No, I mean, I think just it was the idea, I think particularly when you become a mother, that there are many parts of your personality. And when the maternal part sort of takes over everything, particularly when you have small children. But that doesn't mean that the other parts of your personality aren't still there. And I think you see, particularly mothers of small

children who are maybe rather trapped at home in that bit where it's incredibly intense. And sometimes you see parts of that personality sort of exploding out that that that need to be those other selves. So I saw that's how I identified with it. I feel like we've all got different faces, right? We've got one to our children, we've got one when we're at work. We've got one in a pub or something. you ever feel that, I don't know, dual existence taking place in whatever it might be? Whether, I don't know, we all know you, of course, as Catherine Kay would in Happy Valley,

for example, this tough enforcer. And then, I don't know, you're going to the supermarket to get your shopping. I'm very good at compartmentalising. Are you? Yes, I think I am. Have you always been?

Yes, because I know that I have to. There is a process of stepping away from a character once you've played them. The issue, when you're playing them, it becomes a completely immersive experience. And so you've left the planet, really, for five months.

So I'm very, very good at sort of washing it off and returning to a normal existence that's a really must be an interesting transition it's probably very interesting to live with well this I have this thought because when I used to travel a lot with work you know and you'd go to far-flung places for news you know for breaking news or whatever and I always felt it took me a couple of days to get back to myself again afterwards. I'm sure. And primarily, most actors are working away from home.

And we're working away from home for months at a time. So it is, you are in quite a, you live in a bubble, really. It is quite an infantilising bubble. Yes, it is. If you're on a film set, you have to ask to go to the toilet. Yes, or somebody comes with you. And you're escorted. Yes, you're kidded. No, it's to ask to go to the toilet. Or somebody comes with you. And you're escorted. Are you kidding?

No, it's 10-4, 10-4. And then you're taken on. Why can't you just go? Because everything is timed. Everything is timed. So you only have a certain amount of time. And if you need the toilet, then you're losing time.

Or you may escape. God forbid you have a period. You may escape. It's a really funny thing when you come back to like you know it's a funny thing where people open doors for you yes they constantly get some like i don't know whether they get hurt actors they're terrified you're gonna get hurt and they can't shoot so you suddenly you know you get home and you're like oh nobody's opening the door for me

i can go to the toilet by myself climb the step, Radha. That is quite something. I think that's quite a snapshot you give us, though, of what it must be like. Well, remember, we're all insured to work. We can't work without having this medical. We go off and we get insured, and then they keep you healthy. They attempt to keep you healthy. They wrap you in cotton wool, so to speak.

They do. It's just so expensive to lose a day's filming. It's a huge insurance claim for them. Now, when you get in that bubble and when you are in character, let's say, and you're able to stay there until you go back to your family lives or whatever, if you are hanging out, Sarah and Ciara,

I don't know, after a day's filming, are you still Mrs. Reed and you're Helen? No. Well, I'm not. No. I can wash it off. you still Mrs. Reed and you're Helen? No. Well, I'm not. No. I can wash it off. While you're still on set. There's a slight misnomer here because it's interesting. You can't wash it off because the work doesn't end

when the fat cameras stop rolling. You're prepping for the following day. Are you? It's a constant. You're on a treadmill. You're also, you're not hanging out afterwards because you're also naked. You're going straight home. You're ruining hanging out afterwards because you're also naked. You're going straight home. You're ruining all of this.

You're sitting there with a script in the car, being driven home, and then you get home and Kira's probably still sorting out children. Those days are gone for me. But it's a 24-hour-a-day job. It's just the schedules are the schedules are crazy you just you literally you climb on board and cling on yeah so interesting you talked kira there briefly about you know the double life or being like a mom which you are to two girls and at a certain point you

wouldn't do another big film franchise like piratesates of the Caribbean because it would take you away from them and you talk about some of the commitments obviously time commitments etc that there is even with the TV series I'm just wondering was that difficult to make that decision because you were known for big blockbusters obviously yeah I mean I'd been actively looking for something shooting in London that was so that I could keep the kids at school in London and I didn't have to take them out of school. So, you know, I mean, a lot of it's amazing how with the kids, the age they are at the moment, I'm literally going, if it shoots in London, I'll do it.

Directors, film producers, you heard it on Women's Hour. Yeah, exactly. And it's really difficult to do. It's really, really difficult. But, you know, you get to a point, and I'm not saying that we can't ever take the kids out, but I think post-pandemic, they really needed a chunk of time

where they were totally in one place for us, you know. And so this was, I cannot tell you what a dream job this was as far as working mother goes. Sarah, people have often talked about with you that you've had these incredible roles we've been talking a lot this morning and yesterday about women of a certain age that they're now in the spotlight but it hasn't always been like that how would you describe the landscape when it comes to roles for older women? It's very interesting because we're I suppose we're a profession that you can't really parallel with any other profession.

Most people of my age are probably, I'm 60, so they'd be six or seven years away from retirement. Actors don't retire. Not at all. So we continue. And you can't turn off a creative brain.'s an unquiet mind so it keeps going and so you there is a quest to constantly try and find work so that you can really satisfy um things and it is harder there's no doubt it's harder to find really good roles as you get older because they're not written we're getting better at depicting women

in a different light. We haven't been very good at it. And I have to say, in all fairness, we really have moved on in terms of how we depict women in drama, that they are now a propelling force within drama. So it's hugely better than it ever has been. Keira Knightley and Sarah Lancashire and Black Doves is on Netflix. Now, Sitara Gale is an actor, singer and reggae star. She fuses her music with memories from her eventful life in a new show, The Legends of Them. From hearing her radio debut whilst in Holloway Prison

to the Brixton uprisings in 1985 that was sparked by the shooting of her sister. The show explores a hugely varied and at times deeply moving portrayal of her life and the women who have shaped it. The legends of them opened at London's Royal Court Theatre this week and Sitara joined me in the Women's House studio and I started by asking her why she decided to put her life into a play. I looked back at it and, you know, I said, wow, OK, yeah, this has been a very, very colourful life. And I saw how a lot of my trajectory, you know, narrated my lifestyle and narrated how the decisions

that I was going to make in life, it was a lot to do with, oh, what had happened in the past or how I saw things. And so, yeah, sometimes that stops you, you know. When you look at your past, you look at what you've done, where you've been, and sometimes to move forward, it kind of cripples you a little bit. And so that's why I got to a point where I said, actually, I cannot be defined by my past. You know, these things happen, these things, you know.

And then you have to find a point where you move through it. And that was why I started to write these stories. And as I was writing the stories, more and more things came up. Yeah, you make a choice. Yeah. You can make a choice or you made a choice about you wanting to live your life. Yeah. And there's a couple of turning points.

But one of them, a key turning point, was hearing your music play on the radio whilst you were serving time in Holloway Prison. Tell me about that. Yeah, whilst I was on remand. Yeah, as a teenager, as I said, colourful past, got myself into all sorts of trouble. My dream was to be a performer, was to, you know, go on stage. And I got a chance to make this record, my first record, which was in 1984.

Tell us about the record. The record was three weeks gone, I'm with Gyro, and I come three weeks gone gone and my Gyro hasn't come. For the radio to translate. Yes yes to translate you know and it was just all about you know waiting for my Gyro basically and it was you know it was a true it was true events and the record you know really became popular. So at that time when uh i first heard it uh tony williams on bbc radio london played it and uh yeah i was in some kind of trouble for some petty pettiness um and that's where i first that's where i first heard uh heard my track and uh how did you feel oh my gosh shamed so it was like how old were you you said teenager but how yeah i was what i would have been well wasn't it wasn't really a teenager i would have been 20 20 okay yeah yeah yeah okay so yeah it would have been 20 yeah so

shame yeah a lot of um a lot of shame and just like if the the the ground could have opened up and swallowed me i was like and you know and the girls that were in there at this time were like oh my gosh yeah now you're on the radio and they were excited they were banging the windows you're gonna be famous why and all this and i was like oh my gosh look where i am and hearing my dream. And I'm not able to do anything but stay between these walls. And that was one of the biggest wake-up calls for me, was I had to choose, am I going to choose this path, go down that path, or am I going to go down this path

of following my dream? So it was a really big turning point. A sliding doors moment but but it's seeing it because that happens to people in various ways in lots of lives but actually doing it is the the tough bit right so how do you actually change your life it's hard it's hard because we were so conditioned yes Yes. You know, so it wasn't without its failures, you know, but each time I have a drive and this is why I have to big up the legends in my life

and start to write about them because I've had guides. I have had guides. Who are the legends that you talk about? Legends of my mother. Yeah. Legends of my sister, Cherry Gross. Well, let's talk about Cherry because, you know, you made a choice whilst you were hearing your record in prison,

but actually life was going to throw some real challenges your way. And one of those was your sister, Cherry Gross, who is a character in the play. Listeners may recognise her name because she was shot by a police officer in 1985 and was left paralysed from the waist down. Sadly died in 2011. In fact, her son, who the police had been looking for, was never charged.

Why did it feel important to include her in the play? Because everyone knows Cherry as Cherry Gross, the lady that got shot, what sparked the Brixton uprising, as we call it. Yes. We call it the Brixton uprising, as we call it. Yes. We call it the Brixton riots. And they don't know this woman as a human being. They just know what they saw on the news.

And, you know, I know her personally. I felt what she was going through at the time. It was a crazy at the time it was it was um it was a crazy crazy time and also i had a life with her with this beautiful woman she was such a pillar you know of in my life a real stone rock well you say in the play that she was the good one and you were the you were the bad you were the naughty one yeah yeah yeah i was the naughty one if anything it should have happened to me but you know you say that you know at the time that's what you know I was thinking well this woman she's never committed a crime in her life she's never done anything wrong in her life she was so good and

I always I put her on a pedestal because that's how I felt about her and how she lived her life. She lived her life unpretentious. You know, she was just raw, clear, truthful. And yeah. And how did you as a family then cope with the public reaction to what happened? It was hard. And every, I think all of us dealt with it in our own way. There was times where we all got together because we grew as a family my mother always had us uh if there was any problems we'd get around the dining table and we'd all have a meeting with all my brothers and sisters this was something that was an

area currently now in our lives um and so sometimes that would happen but i think each one of us we were all on our own journey at the time as well. And we all dealt with it differently. And I know for me personally, I found it so hard. And, you know, I had that just that kind of rebellious way already, you know, and a mistrust of the system anyway. So this just heightened it. And yeah, it was there was a lot of anger, a lot of rage. And how do you feel about it now? How do you deal with it now, now that you've gone on this journey that's brought you to this point?

Yeah, how I deal with it now is I'm just very much in touch with my nephews and my nieces. We all gather together. My niece, Rosemary Cherry's daughter, has a gathering every single Sunday without fail, rain, storm or sleet. She has everybody there on a Sunday. She cooks the biggest meals and we go and they play dominoes.

You know, we have a little juice, you know, maybe a little fire water, you know, and we're playing the music exactly what happened at Cherry's house every weekend. Well, Cherry's son, Lee Lawrence, was on Woman's Hour talking about his mum and his search for justice in 2020. And I should say that a jury inquest in 2014 found that police failures contributed to Cherry's death. And that police failed to communicate properly and adequately check who was living at the property before the raid. Following that verdict, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner at the time, Sir Bernard Hogan Howe, apologised unreservedly for the shooting and the time it had taken to say sorry.

You're obviously a very close family yes and you mentioned that the play is called uh the legends of them and your mum is a big influence in your life your femur what a beautiful name it is yeah um so tell us about her she had eight children she had eight children three was born in um in jamaica and then she sent for them when she came over to england you know in years later and uh she was just my mama just knew her as a worker she just worked tirelessly she was a dressmaker she made dresses and uh clothes for all kinds of people from all different walks of life she was always having all different people come into the house for their fashion. And she was a fashionista herself.

Well, yeah, it comes across. Well, darling, you know, that's why I get it. I mean, come on now. You do look fabulous. We do like fashion, yeah. In the play, you speak in your mother's voice. And we're going to hear you sing something which I can't wait. And she talks about the pride of dressing all of you you were the best dressed kids yes yes at the time I didn't think

so then when I look back I realize well we were very very lucky what do you want people to take away from this play you know I wrote this play for mainly for my community. We've gone through a lot and I've seen a lot. I have seen a lot, probably things that I shouldn't have seen at such an early age. And I'd love for people to come away with like, you know, you don't define yourself by your past.

You can't, you know, know who you are now and not to live by others' opinions about you. There's such humanity. And also to just claim your own story, just stand in your own light and claim your own story and your own truth. Satara Gale there. Now to something that affects so many of you. According to the NHS, by the age of 50, up to 80% of black women and up to 70% of white women will have fibroids.

These are non-cancerous growths that develop in or around the womb. They're made up of muscle and fibrous tissue and vary in size. Black women experience larger uterine fibroids with an earlier onset and with more frequent and debilitating symptoms, according to the National Institute of Health in the States. Professor Nicola Rollock is best known for her academic research and her writing on race and society. As a friend of Woman's Hour, she approached us to ask if she could come and talk about something more personal,

her own experience of uterine fibroids. She joined Nuala earlier this week alongside Hilary Critchley, Professor of Reproductive Medicine at the University of Edinburgh and a consultant gynaecologist. Nuala began by asking Nicola how she experienced this condition. So I was in hospital under investigation for what I believed was an unrelated matter and I was told that I had fibroids. And at the time I didn't really give it much thought because I understood they were benign and yes, they occurred in the womb, but as I said I said didn't give it much thought but they began to

grow and they grew so large in fact that they caused quite considerable discomfort so generally I'm a size 10 used to be a size 8 of my youth but no longer but these fibroids grew in my stomach and the lining of my womb. So it appeared as if I was six months pregnant. And I had to try and lift myself from a sofa in the same way that you would see a woman who is actually pregnant do the same thing. So causing discomfort, difficulty in terms of clothes, but also pressure on my bladder. So it was really horrible and I wanted to understand a bit more about them. So you went on that journey of trying to investigate more. What options were you given to alleviate symptoms?

Well, I didn't actually understand what the options were. And it wasn't until the beginning of lockdown lockdown when the fibroids had grown to quite a considerable size, that I spoke again to my consultant on the NHS. And I was told that I had four options, to do nothing and wait for the onset of menopause, with the view that there'd be a decline or reduction in oestrogen and therefore a reduction in the fibroids. I was also told that I could have an embolism, so in other words, cut off the blood supply that was feeding the fibroids, a myomectomy, which is open invasive surgery to remove the fibroids. And then finally, I was told I could have a hysterectomy and I was absolutely shocked.

I'm an academic so I went away to go and do my due diligence to carry out research but I was really shocked that apart from a very brief summary on the NHS website and a series of medical articles I couldn't find anything and what I was looking for was, if you will, a one-stop portal that would give the intelligent layperson a summary of what fibroids are, how to live with them, and indeed, as in my case, how to weigh up the various pros and cons of taking any of those options. And I couldn't find it anywhere. I'm going to jump over to Hilary who's in studio with me. Why do you think there is this silence in some ways around fibroids considering so many women have them 70 80 percent by age 50? So I think we have a problem that one

of the biggest symptoms of fibroids is heavy periods, which we just don't talk about. We still have a long-standing taboo around talking about periods, menstruation. And Professor Rollock, Nicola has shared very much the symptoms of pressure, but one of the main symptoms is also heavy bleeding, the risk of iron deficiency, iron deficiency, anemia. And because it is a symptom experienced by one in three, and of those, many will have fibroids, as we've heard. It's just not talked about. It's normalised. So there is a delay in seeking attention.

And we need to increase education. We need to, as our colleague Nicolaola said, we need to make information available. And I think we then have the opportunity to begin to identify those who may have fibroids. And they are commoner, as you've described, among black women. We know they will experience the symptoms perhaps a decade earlier. A study quite recently among over 1500 participants showed that the ages in mid-20s to mid-30s, maybe as many as one in four would have fibroids. So we need to be much better at earlier diagnosis. You know, one thing I was thinking of when I was researching your research yesterday is that we talk about heavy periods, but we don't really know what a heavy period is because you never see anybody else's period.

No, and we don't talk about it. Do you know what I mean? That's what I mean. We don't have a measurement, for example, like you know if you've broken your arm or something, what it looks like or what is something, but we don't have that. three tablespoons. Now somebody with fibroids, and this is the research we do, and I give a huge thank you to the very many participants in our research studies who've allowed us to measure their blood loss. And we know that some with fibroids will lose 10 times that, almost equivalent each month to a pint of blood. And imagine if you were going to a blood transfusion

center each month, how exhausted and how tired you would feel. But those blood losses can be of that magnitude. Yes. And of course, it's even with those numbers, it's difficult mixed with water or lining or you need to try and understand exactly what is a heavy period. And I suppose, sure, please do. viving heavy periods and in my own case I recall going into a bathroom changing sanitary towels so it's ready for my journey my onward journey and I left the toilet and 30 seconds later I needed to go to the bathroom again so just to give a sense of really how pressing and also the flooding what's described as the flooding and the gushing that happens when you have exceptionally heavy periods. And I heard from women who would describe only wearing black, you know, in their day to day or only wearing trousers or a woman who talks about having to stop, pull over in her car, jump out and get a plastic bag from the boot so she could lie in her seat. I mean, it got to such an extent for me, and I wasn't one of these women who had exceptionally and consistently heavy periods, but it got to such an extent for me that I now have a

mental map of the toilets that I made, public toilets that I can visit in the middle of London. And there will be many women that will totally, that will totally resonate with Professor Nicola Rollick. I do want to say, if you have concerns, of course, do go to your GP for your individual

symptoms that you may have. Message came in, I want to read it. You try fibroids. I'm a 58 year old black woman who is three weeks post-op following a hysterectomy for fibroids. The journey to diagnosis, appropriate treatment,

just gaining empathy and understanding for the pain, discomfort and limiting elements of irregular bleeding and incontinence is a challenge. Never mind the long wasting list for gynaecological interventions. I welcome this conversation

as being able to share it with my friends. Thank you. And that's Denise in Nottingham. And let's talk about the fact of ethnicity and race as it intersects with uterine fibroids. I mean, when I looked, I couldn't find one specific reason of why, and I'll throw this to you first, Hilary, and then I'll come to you, Nicola, of why black and I'll throw this to you first, Hilary, and then I'll come to you, Nicola, of why black women suffer disproportionately? So I think you highlight an area where much

research is needed. We do know that in the fibroid, the cells that multiply and become the fibroid have a particular gene that is slightly changed and that we believe, but we need the research to know, is that changed more often in black women than white women. So where the answers lie will be more research to understand these genetic types, whether or not they're present, but also how those intersect with environmental factors. And I think this is hugely interesting that it's not going to be probably one factor, it's going to be multiple factors. And I think what we raise here is we have an area that has been under-researched,

far less activity in the research field, in the field for looking at treatments, particularly drug treatments, compared to other conditions which may have even less burden. And what we realise is that these are symptoms that take young people out of education, they take them out of the workplace, and the costs of absenteeism, but particularly even when you're present, of not working to your full capacity. And there are recent figures published that shows the huge economic impact. So this is an area needing multidiscipline research across sectors.

And I didn't mention we talked about anemia and some of the debilitating symptoms. It can, of course, have complications for pregnancy if the fibroids are in your uterus, which could be preventing pregnancy or making it more difficult. Nicola, a last word from you. Well, I mean, it says two things. One, and I'd have to defer to Professor Critchley on this,

but we know that oestrogen may be a factor, a contributing factor. But I have also read that cortisol, the stress hormone, may also be a factor. So along with environmental considerations, there may be a disproportionate impact on stress in terms of why it impacts black women more. But one of the things I'd like to see, and Professor Critchley has spoken to this, is increased research because we don't know enough about them, increased awareness in the workplace. And if there are any production companies out there who would like to focus on this as a documentary, please do get in touch. We need greater awareness. Professor Nicola Rollock and Professor Hilary Critchley. And if you're experiencing any of the symptoms we've been talking about, there are links to information and support on the Women's Hour website. A Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson told us

it's unacceptable that so many women are waiting too long for the care they need. That is why we will overhaul women's health care, placing women's equality at the heart of our agenda and ensure women's health is never again neglected. Our 10-year health plan, backed by a £26 billion boost for the NHS and social care at the budget, will bring down weights in gynaecology so women get the support they need when they need it.

Now, I've got some exciting news for you. Nuala and I are going to be presenting the Woman's Hour Christmas Day special together. It's the season of comfort and joy, so we want to talk about comfort, which many of us crave at this time of year. And it got us thinking about how and why we create a safe comfort zone around us, and also what it means to push ourselves out of that and how it feels. So I wanted to ask

you, have you forced yourselves out of your comfort zone this year? And if so, how? And where has it taken you? We're keen to have your stories as part of the And if so, how? And where has it taken you? We're keen to have your stories as part of the programme, so please do get in touch. Email us via our website. Still to come on the programme, author Josie Lloyd on her latest cosy crime novel. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day.

If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to The Daily Podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, at some point in our lives, most of us will experience some form of loss, but its inevitability doesn't make going through it any easier. After actor Anna Maxwell Martin spoke on the programme a few weeks ago about the grief she experienced after her husband suddenly died in 2021, we were inundated with listeners writing in with their own experiences. Two of them, Giselle de Haas and Heather Ashley, joined me in the studio this week to talk about how they manage their grief day to day. I'm going to start by reading out their original tweets. Giselle said, I found my mother's body at the age of 19.

She was an alcoholic. And so although it was hugely traumatic, no one came to my aid. And I had a younger sibling to care for. I had no one to say, it's OK, I've got you. And so I needed to just find a way of getting through it. I'm now 57 and still really struggle inwardly. But outwardly, I'm the picture of health and radiance. And Heather said, I lost my husband suddenly over two years ago our boys were 12 and 14 my advice to others offering support is to

listen say I'm here for you don't refer to your own past experiences unless it's exactly the same situation even then how we experience grief is personal also Also, no, no matter how clear and rational your thoughts are, they're not. Well, they weren't for me. I started by asking Giselle how she coped as a 19 year old. Oh goodness, where do I start? How do I cope? How did I cope back then in a very different way than I cope now? But my coping strategy now is exercise, a healthy diet and barely any alcohol I mean the odd little bit here and there but for me it's all about health well-being being in nature to be out in in the elements to walk just to be in the countryside and to try and row which is you know my amazing thing that I love doing now so but what kind of support did you have you said you had a younger sibling to look after no support at all unfortunately back at that time

no support I actually had to foster the sibling so that they wouldn't get taken into care at the time I mean this we're talking late 80s there was very little emotional support or help at all for someone like me and you kind of would just pale into insignificance and it was almost as if it hadn't really happened. But dealing with it, you kind of just got over it and it was just, you know, get on with everyday life and just sort yourself out because it will be, you know, you've just got to get on with it.

You have to keep going. And I guess that's the strategy that I've adopted for the most part of my life because I've kind of learned to just get on with stuff and do stuff. I have a successful business. I'm an architectural designer. So for me, it's all about work. So what happens to the grief? The grief, it kind of gets, it subsides a little bit daily because you kind of get busy with stuff and you find yourself dealing with all sorts of things

and packing your day, ensuring that you have enough time in the day to keep yourself fit to to be healthy to see your friends and to carry on with work and business so that's now that's now what about the 19 year old yeah well in a way I guess the 19 year old's still here and she's still dealing and coping with stuff. The grief doesn't ever really go away. But you learn strategies, you learn how to kind of live with it to be in the moment and to accept. For me also helping others. I think that's been a big part of my life to try and understand other people around me and also to be grateful. I teach my daughter and I have done all of her life to be grateful for what she does have, to be grateful for small, tiny little things that other people

in this hugely sort of busy world may take for granted. Heather, I'm going to bring you in as well, because you lost your husband only two years ago. Yes. A huge shock, wasn't it? Yes, it was massive. It came from nowhere. My husband had just started a new job.

He was a fasci jet pilot or a successful fast jet pilot and it was his it was his first day actually flying the jet and um someone had sent me a message to say is dave okay and whenever i got that message straight away and he hadn't replied to me so there was the alarm bells were starting to go anyway because we were in constant communication and then the doorbell went and I knew what happened well I just sort of saying so I opened the door and I'm in the military we've been through conversations in the past because he was active on the RAF so he's been you know he's been active on detachments and um there is this protocol that you do you give someone your details so if anything was to happen he he said to me, if anything was to happen Heather, I don't want you getting a phone call

I want you, someone being there in person and that's exactly what happened, I opened the door and I didn't know who they were and they told me what had happened and of course my world just fell apart You can take your time. Yeah, but, you know, it's funny because you sometimes reflect because sometimes it's too painful going back into those situations, but sometimes you need to.

And so going back, I definitely felt very much that I was looking in someone else's life. It wasn't me, you know, the pain was just unbearable. But then you go into automatic pilot, don't you? And I've got my two boys, so, you know the pain was just unbearable but then you go into automatic pilot don't you and I've got my two boys so you know I had to be there to um and they were they were 12 and 14 yeah and you had to talk to them yeah so when you say automatic pilot what does that mean it means I needed to to find strength I needed to find deep strength and um of course always come from a place of love because I mean no one knows a greater

love than the love for their children and so I just needed to be there just to support them and guide them in any way that that I could be which which I did and I just at the time I just kind of went into automatic pilot I had certain things I had to do so I had to focus on certain tasks in hand that I needed to do in terms of repatriation and there was all that side of it as well and it was around this was a moment for me I did recognise this is a moment for me I need to honour my husband and and give him the best possible service that that I can do so that was my focus at that time. Giselle what was it like in the early days after your mother died? Oh goodness again you kind of just learn to to live with this and just crack on with stuff.

And the everyday practicalities kind of kick in about how am I going to earn a living? How am I going to pay the rent? I was able to take over the council house that my mother had at the time. Otherwise, we would have been homeless, which sadly as a family we were in the 1970s anyway we found ourselves homeless before we were able to gain this social housing but luckily I was able to take that on I had a very meagre salary at the time I'd just finished art college and I'd started work in in London so the practicalities of feeding us living paying the bills I actually don't know how I did it now when I look back. How did

I, with no help from anybody, literally live? Maybe it's a bit of autopilot. I literally don't know. At the age of 19, 20, when you're dealing with all of this, I mean, how do you? It's inconceivable that I could have gotten through what I did and come out of it alive. I wonder how, Heather, you're talking to your boys, how you spoke to your boys about it at the time and how you talk to them now. Well, we talk. I mean, we very much make Dave, you know, he's still alive.

You know, we love to share the stories and the laughter. And, you know, it's really important to celebrate the time that we did have. But it's also okay to fail. It's okay to cry and release and especially having two boys no two teenage boys can be a challenge in themselves but never mind them having to face the loss and the hurt that they've had that it's okay to cry so important so important you know let them feel that yeah you know that there's power there and um so all i can do is just through talking and going gently

because again what I'm seeing through them they are dealing with things in their own way as we all do we cope in whatever way that we can. In your message Heather you wrote that you offered some advice on what we shouldn't say to people experiencing loss talk us through that. Yeah it's interesting because of course you know that most people have their best your best interest at heart but some of the things they just sort of want to show their sympathy and empathy and quite often they'll relate to a similar or the way they see it's a similar situation but no matter you know even in case of a pet you know I've lost my dog you know you can't you can't possibly

you know you can't possibly compare and also everyone's grief is different how you know the same as you Giselle the way you approach your the way you wherever your grief is very different to the grief that I had and and I've have I've had other losses in my life as well so I just I would just say don't don't um just listen and be there to offer support. I think mine, I was so much younger. So for me, it's about dealing with it now, really, because I've come to more of a realisation as I had my daughter. That was the first time it really affected me, having a child. Oh, explain. What happened?

Well, I don't exactly know why, but I was absolutely fine until I had my daughter, Freddie, when I was 32. And then suddenly my world seemed to just fall apart. I'm not sure if it was the realisation that I had some other little beautiful soul to look after and to inspire and to bring into this world in a lovely way or whether it was because the realisation that I had no one to help me, no one around and I actually had to be responsible for this thing that just sort of landed with me and I think that you know learning to understand grief as you grow older,

it takes on different kind of avenues, the older that you get. For me, I've been able to write. I found writing enormously cathartic and I've got 100,000 words down now in a book that I've sort of started writing and I need to go back and re-edit. And it gave me a real purpose and a real passion

and made me think but I just want to say that the guilt that I felt around finding my mother's body and her death will never leave me. Yeah and Heather with your children being so young when their father died how did you balance caring for them and also making sure that you were caring for yourself as well? Oh that's so um they came first and foremost but then it's like a double-edged sword. You can't be strong and be there for them and be your best self if you're not looking after yourself. For me personally, afterwards, it was about routine.

I needed to keep to routine because, you know, when everything goes away, it's coming back to your circle of influence, what you can control. Well, I can control my self-care so a bit like Giselle That's where Giselle Salata is you talked about looking after yourself physically You can control that you're in control of your own body

your own destiny if you like That was Woman's Hour listeners Giselle de Haas and Heather Ashley and if you've been affected by any issues we've discussed you can find links to support on the BBC Action Line website. Okay time for some cosy crime fiction. If you don't know what that is no matter.

Author Josie Lloyd will tell you in a moment. Her new novel Miss Beaton's Murder Agency centres on the fictional Alice Beaton, the somewhat prim owner of the Good Household Management Agency and in this story a distant relative of the real-life Victorian cookery and household writer, Mrs Beaton. Alice and her ancestor share a love of recipes and an eye for detail, which comes in handy as crime occurs. Josie joined Nuala this week and she asked her why the real Isabella Beaton was such an inspiration.

Isabella Beaton was an icon of the 20th century. She was probably the first domestic goddess. She was a very modern woman. She worked with her husband Samuel and she wrote recipes and she was a French translator. And it was at a time when women were moving out of London into the suburbs, miles away from their family, without any family support. And they were expected to run a household they were expected to know how to you know order fish um get a scullery made um educate the children deal with sickness and also be able to cook like a three-course dinner for the boss and his wife coming around at the weekend and they were clueless and mrs beaton realized that there

was this real need for people to understand how to run a household so she started collecting recipes and she started writing in sort of magazines and then she collated it all into a book called the book of household management and it became this massive bestseller and all of our grandmothers had it and my grandmother had it and then my mother had it and I can remember it from being a small child and when I found my mother's copy of it sort of stuffed with bits of newspaper like newspaper recipes and stuff I really thought I started to think more about Mrs Beaton and in my mind I'd always thought that she was kind of this byword for kind of order and orderliness I

thought she was this like Victorian matronly kind of woman. But the truth was quite different. I mean, she was a young woman. She was commuting to work with her husband. And sadly, she was only 28 when she died. I read that as I was reading about your book, which shocked me. I always thought of her

when I used to hear about Mrs. Beaton as like this older woman who was running a household with an iron fist. But let's now go to your Alice Beaton. It's like this older woman who, you know, was running a household with an iron fist. But let's now go to your Alice Beaton. Yeah. Tell us why you decided to make that connection

and where Alice comes into the story. Well, I mean, crime is a broad church, isn't it? And I would say that this is the tea and cakes in the church hall end of the broad church you know I'm quite squeamish to be honest you know in a in a fight or flight situation I'm out the

door I am not the girl that is going to open the door the creaky door down to a basement and go down and have a look I'm just not but I quite like the idea of writing somebody quite intrepid but I also like the idea of somebody who like me is, is quite clueless about crime. So she's read a lot of crime novels and she's read all the Agatha Christie's and she's named her dog Agatha. And this is Alice, your protagonist, Alice Beaton, who's a distant, fictionally distant relative. I've used artistic license and I really hope I haven't offended anyone. But I wanted to bring that sense of orderliness and neatness. And she runs the Good Household Management Agency. So she places staff in posh households and country piles. And she's got a real kind of sense of how, you know,

to get the cut of someone's jib, as she says, she knows. And she's just got an eye for detail. And she knows about human nature. So she uses that knowledge to kind of inform her sleuthing powers. What do you think makes crime cosy? I think the lack of police, for starters. I mean, you quickly become involved in police procedural. That's not there. Well, it sort of is, but that's on a side tangent. This is people trying to work out in an amateur way what on earth has gone wrong because they've been shut out of the police investigation or the police investigation is not doing very well so

it's very much an amateur take on things and that's what I really loved about the household management agency because as staff people can get into a household and have an enormous amount of insight into somebody's life but they're also quite invisible so when alice goes in undercover not to give too many spoilers away but when she goes in undercover she's invisible so it's and she gets a real taste of of what it's like on the other side so it is she has like a an access to all all people so she's got the client side but she's also got loads of stuff so she has like an access to all people. So she's got the client side, but she's also got loads of staff. So she's got an old fashioned Rolodex

that's full of nannies and chauffeurs and gardeners and mixologists. She knows everyone. So she's quite fun. And you talk about the invisibility. We've been talking a lot this week about women of a certain age, due to comments that were made by the TV presenter,

Greg Wallace on an Instagram post, then apologised for those comments. She's also invisible sometimes to her family, in society, because she hasn't taken the traditional route of married, children, mother, etc. Yes, and she feels that. And also behind the scenes, she's kind of supporting her brother because she's kind of solvent and she's kind of the older sister. So she's kind of fixing things and it annoys her, this kind of sense that she has not got her place in society that people would want.

But she's got her staff, her dog, the people around her who very much form her family. And over the course of the novel, she goes from sort of being quite lonely in her basement flat to having this wonderful sense of her family and actually that she's created her own family of friends. And she also has a bit of a makeover during the course of the novel, which is really fun. So she kind of gets to be in disguise as a glamorous woman in Annabelle's at one point

in a designer sparkly dress and she just feels like complete fish out of water but that's really fun. That was Josie Lloyd and her book Miss Beaton's Murder Agency is out now. That's all from me. On Monday we'll be discussing whether the UK is a miserable place to raise a family or is it just parents being miserable. You can join that conversation with Nuala plus a piece of Hollywood is coming to Park Theatre in London. The stars of Betty and Joan will be on the programme, talking about the production that tells the story of the two legends, Betty Davis and Joan Crawford. Can't wait. Join Nuala at 10 on Monday, but from me,

enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.