Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Laura Kenny, Actor Vicky Knight, baby loss certificates

Episode Date: March 23, 2024

Dame Laura Kenny, Britain's most decorated female Olympian, talks to Emma Barnett about her sporting career, motherhood and her decision to quit cycling.Friday’s Woman’s Hour came live from Doncaster which came bottom of one league table for opportunities for women entrepreneurs in the UK last year, according to the website money.co.uk which analysed data from the Office for National Statistics. So we wanted to find out why. Anita was joined by BBC Radio Sheffield’s Paulette Edwards to speak to local entrepreneurs across the city. We hear from Rachel Stockey, Head of Entrepreneurial Skills at the Entrepreneurship Institute at King’s College, London as well as Amy Furniss who set up a business selling dried flowers in 2020 during the Covid lockdown.On 27 February, Emma Barnett spoke to Zoe Clark-Coates, who runs the baby loss and bereavement charity The Mariposa Trust, about her campaign for baby loss certificates. They were introduced in England in February for parents who’ve lost a baby before 24 weeks of pregnancy. Emma shares her own story and also speaks to a woman who’s decided it’s not for her, and another who applied straight away and has now received four baby loss certificates.The new film Silver Haze is based on recollections of real events in actor Vicky Knight’s childhood, including when she survived an arson attacked aged just eight. Vicky talks to Emma about blending her real childhood experiences with the narrative of the film, and why she wanted to tell her story.Have you ever had a nagging feeling that something wasn’t quite right? A gut reaction or a tingly spidey-like sense that tells you something is off? Author of Emotional Labour, Rose Hackman joins Emma to explain why we need to stop calling it 'women’s intuition'.John Lennon told them that ‘girls don’t play guitar’, but these four girls from 1960s Liverpool were determined to prove him wrong. Mary, Sylvia, Valerie and Pamela formed Britain's first female rock'n'roll band The Liverbirds, and went on to tour stadiums across Europe, record two hit albums and play with the Kinks, Rolling Stones and Chuck Berry – all in the space of five years. Emma talks to the two surviving members of the band about their incredible story.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Hanna Ward Studio Manager: Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupal Partey and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, the programme each week where we gather together the best bits of Woman's Hour from the week gone by and put them all in one place for you. I'm Krupal Partey. Coming up on the programme, Olympic cyclist Laura Kenny tells us why she decided to retire. Actor Vicky Knight explains how her acting has helped her come to terms with her scars. It wasn't until I see Dirty God for the first time in cinemas I see someone else but with my scars and that's the moment I realised, hang on a minute, there's nothing wrong

with me, I'm Vicky. Plus, Woman's Hour presenter Emma Barnett shares her experience of applying for a baby loss certificate. And Friday's Woman's Hour was live in Doncaster. We'll hear from Anita and some special guests about what it takes to be a female entrepreneur. Not only have we left Woman's Hour HQ for Yorkshire, I am joined by Paulette Edwards from BBC Radio Sheffield. All that and much more. So grab a cuppa and settle in.

Dame Laura Kenny, the most successful Great Britain Olympic female athlete in history, has just announced her retirement from cycling. Laura is the winner of five Olympic gold, seven world championship titles and is the first British woman to win a gold medal at three consecutive Olympics. She's married to former cyclist Sir Jason Kenny and they have two sons. Laura spoke to Emma from the BBC studios in Salford and explained how she feels now the news is out. Well I mean relief more than anything to be honest that I can actually talk about it finally. I mean it's not been a

decision that has been made for very long it's only been about 10 days two weeks but I mean for me to be able to actually sit here now and talk about it rather than be like oh I hope nobody asks about whether I'm going to compete um it's nice yeah what made you go that way just a sacrifice for me with the kids just it's just not worth it now for me um it's just too much and it's too hard to leave them behind for me with albie it felt right it felt like i was 100 committed and i was totally in for going and trying to win another gold medal but this time it felt different from the get-go for me like just initially obviously monty comes along and i found myself not really relying on the grandparents anymore.

Like it was me wanting to look after them and look after him, sorry. And then my training having to kind of take a back seat. The thought of having to leave them behind, I was just like, I don't know how I'm going to do that. I don't know how I'm physically going to do that. And it's not a case now of, well, they can all come with because obviously Albie's at school. And so it was just a compromise too far for me this time. You know, I was quite open talking about having a miscarriage and the topic. I think maybe that had more of a thing to play in it

than I'd ever kind of realised or anticipated. When Monty came along, all I ever wanted for Albie was a sibling. I just always saw Albie as a big brother and for that to maybe not happen and for me maybe not to have another baby then once he was here and I did have another one I just didn't want to waste that time I just didn't want to see his little life I mean he's eight months tomorrow I don't know where that's gone and I've been there with him every step you know and I just maybe I can now sit here and say I took Albie for granted a little bit how easy it was to have Albie how easy everything seemed at

the time I could just ask my parents to come and look after him was this time I just didn't want to I wanted that to be me I didn't want to miss anything and only eight months I suppose that you know it's a huge amount of pressure to get back and be at the level that you are. Yeah, I mean, with Albie, I mean, I rode a bike six weeks after giving birth with Albie. But at the time, that felt right. Cool, cool. Casual. Yeah, just back on that. The thought of a bike being anywhere near between people's legs, women's legs, after birth is a thought. But yes, carry on.

Well, I mean, I guess we're used to saddle sore it's just like an extended version right that's one way of putting it you're the Olympian here no I mean it just seemed right then you know I was very in I was fully committed to it whereas this time the recovery was already longer it was 12 weeks before I rode a bike again. And it's just a lot. It's just a lot to leave someone so young who was feeding. I mean, I'm still breastfeeding him. And for me, it's a lot to have to sacrifice.

I suppose the pressure was also there about having to qualify for the Olympics so soon. Yeah, so I mean, the qualification ends in April. So the last race I would have had to go to is just after Easter weekend. And, yeah, the pressure of that, like the thought of having to race before then, was really daunting for me because it meant I was going to have to leave them soon and sharpish, and I just couldn't.

I just didn't want to do it. And it's funny, actually, because when we talk about this, obviously I've read other people's and like Tom Daley saying how his little boy said, Daddy, I want to see you at the Olympics. But when I actually asked Albie, he didn't want mummy to go away anymore. And I think the fact that he was realising that mummy was going away. I mean, he doesn't even want me to go down to London today. But just the thought that he's sad about want me to go down to London today. But the thought

that he's sad about that, I just couldn't live with. How old is he? I'll be six and then Mum takes me home. I also have a six-year-old and a one-year-old, so we're in a similar age gap territory. It's just interesting, and I know it's very different fields, but last week the singer Lily Allen said, my children ruined my career i love them and they complete me uh but in terms of pop stardom they totally ruined it i mean you you can't say that in terms of your first as you've described and what you went on to go and

do but but what what do you say to those women who are listening and thinking oh come on laura i want you to get back on that bike you know it's your choice they'll respect that but just that idea of of what then changes i actually got asked this the other day like someone said to me like was it worth like can can you do both can you have everything and I would say you can yeah like and I could have got back on the bike and I could have possibly qualified for the next Olympics but you've got to think it's worth it because in the long run it's your happiness that you're toying with here you know and it was mayhem like so taking albie around the world traveling around the world with him and qualifying for the

toko olympics was absolute carnage and i think jason and i had this way of painting this really beautiful and easy picture and the picture that everyone wants you can have a baby you can come back you can go on to win a gold medal. And it looks easy. And I'm telling you, it was far from easy. It was absolute carnage. And there were so many sacrifices along the way. There were so many flights I had to book here, there, everywhere. It was expensive. It was everything, you know. It worked, yes, but it didn't come without some seriously heartbreaking sacrifices.

I mean, the only time that Albie remembers mummy being sad was when you go on a holding camp before the Olympics. You have two weeks where you are locked away, basically, especially because it was COVID time. So we were quite literally locked away. And he came with us to Wales. But then after that, we were flying to Tokyo. And now the Olympics Association wouldn't let anyone who wasn't competing come. So Albie couldn't come to the Olympics. And I had to say goodbye. And it was horrendous.

And I just couldn't hold back the tears because it's three weeks. It's a long, I've never been away from him, you know, and it was such a long time to be away from him. And that's the only time that Albie ever remembers mum being sad. And it's those sacrifices and those thoughts that it can work, but it's not perfect. There's no way that any of it's perfect. And it just comes with massive sacrifice that you have to ultimately be happy with living with. I suppose you've also got this quite unique setup where both parents are doing the same or have been doing the same job. So, you know, again, those questions of if you were going on and going on with this for yourself, leaving your partner, your husband to pick this up, maybe that's the way to do it.

But it sounds like you've both had that experience of finding it difficult. Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, I think it would be different. I think, like you you say we were in a very unique situation where we were both going and so it was almost worse because as much as we were leaving him with my mum and dad like obviously I trust them with my life but it's a very different kind of it's not like you can just pick up the phone every second and be like what's he doing now what's he doing now or can he go and do this can you make sure he's got his school bag it's just different when it's not the other parent looking after him.

Plus also, I think even if Jason wasn't riding and obviously he's taken on a coaching role, so he would be going to the Olympics anyways, he would still have to work. So it would still feel like they weren't getting the attention that they ultimately need as little ones. What are you going to do now? Are you going to chill at are you are you uh gonna chill at home what's what's the what's the plan i mean we've got a small petting farm on the

go at home at the minute but no i i honestly i've got interest in so many different things that i want to get my teeth stuck into it's funny because cycling just takes up so much time like it is literally 24 7 and so now to be able to step back and go actually what am i interested in i want to do something where i'm giving back to the younger generation definitely um that's always kind of been in my heart but also the more time i've had away because obviously when you're pregnant that is your maternity leave when you're an athlete it's not it's not really the after but i've had time to work with the media and I've had time to do lots of things a bit like this. And I actually really enjoy it. So something along those lines. But I mean, to be honest,

I'm pretty open to anything. Dame Laura Kenny there. Now, Anita Rani took Women's Hour to Doncaster on Friday with a special programme all about what it takes to be a female entrepreneur. Doncaster came bottom of one league table for opportunities for women entrepreneurs in the UK last year, according to the website money.co.uk, which analysed data from the Office for National Statistics. So we wondered what the entrepreneurs, the creative minds of the future,

thought about Doncaster coming last in this way. And Anita has been asking them alongside BBC Radio Sheffield presenter Paulette Edwards. Anita was firstly joined by Rachel Stockie, head of entrepreneurial skills at the Entrepreneurship Institute at King's College London. And Paulette also spoke to Amy Furness, a nurse turned entrepreneur who has a dried flowers business. But first, Anita asked Rachel whether entrepreneurship is something you can teach. We at King's College London at the Entrepreneurship Institute fully believe that it

is something that you can teach. How? So I designed a framework that kind of breaks down what we mean by entrepreneurial mindset into seven key skills, which really help people get it. It's more accessible, right? If you can learn a a range of skills then you can practice those skills and you can get better at them over time and that grows your confidence in turn and actually being able to learn tangible things like how to be a disruptive thinker and how to validate an idea will help you over time you know spot opportunities and find ways um to take those opportunities and make them into something real in the real world so we teach that at kings we're not going to get into them right

now because we will properly but go on list your seven key skills so our seven skills are compel disrupt think lean validate commit to growth build teams and get it done that's it well remembered well remembered yeah well she came up with them so it'd be Validate, commit to growth, build teams and get it done. That's it. Well remembered. Well remembered. She came up with them. I think that's interesting as well, Anita, because we were having a conversation, Rachel,

about whether we were entrepreneurial or not. And I was saying, I definitely am not. And you, Anita, were saying you definitely are. I just went, yes, of course I am. But then you looked at me and said you thought I was. And I asked Rachel, actually, backstage, if she thought she could turn me into an entrepreneur and what was your response to that Rachel? Challenge accepted

right so by the end of the hour let's see if we can turn you Paula into an entrepreneur. Let's see. Is there a kind of character that you see in entrepreneurs though? It's a range and I think that's the thing that sometimes puts people off because they're often the representations of entrepreneurship. We have a very singular. So the main reference points we have are, you know, Dragon's Den or The Apprentice. And it makes people think that there's only one type of entrepreneur. But actually, in my role, I get to see a huge number of different people applying their entrepreneurial mindset in a huge range of different ways. And I think that's what we need more of is the broader representation of what it can mean to be entrepreneurial because then more people will see themselves in it.

Wonderful. I'm going to talk to Amy now. So Amy you are a local startup, you Amy Furness sell dry flowers but you were a nurse before that. How did you go from nurse to becoming an entrepreneur then so I started my business while I was nursing um and just did it sort of alongside working evenings and weekends um and then it sort of the side hustle just grew into something bigger and bigger yeah so we started up at home and the house was completely chaos as you can imagine boxes flowers everywhere um but we just made it work we worked till early hours um then I got up did my nine till five job um I worked as a practice nurse so I worked Monday to Friday um and then used to come home and then work up until like one and two in the morning, wrapping parcels and getting stuff ready for people, yeah.

Would you say it was worth it? A hundred percent. At the time, if you'd asked me that, I used to go to work and think, I used to dread going home because of the mess. You usually go home to just be nice and clean and quiet, have your tea. And I can remember just moving Pampas aside to put my dinner plate there to eat my dinner and then move the plate aside and just carry on wrapping yeah it was not something that you could have done for a long time really. But where did that idea the first inkling that you wanted

to do something different come from? So I was redecorating my house because when we bought the house it needed renovating so I was at the final stages of adding all the nice homey parts. And I couldn't find pampas grass anywhere for sale. So that's really where it started. I just went on the hunt looking for them. And I thought, surely if I'm looking for pampas grass for my house, there's other people out there who are looking for the same. And, yeah, I had to make

an order with a wholesaler which had to be of a certain amount of money because they wouldn't allow me just to buy three stems what I wanted for my vase at home so I ended up with this massive box of Pampers coming and I thought what am I even going to do with all this

I can remember my husband said wow what's going on um and yeah I just I thought there's definitely a gap in the market and I've always kept an open mind like I've always thought I need to be I've always just thought I can definitely do something I want to just do something for myself and that that were it yeah do you know you know what they say about pampas grass don't you yeah I do well I didn't until i started and then i thought i hope people don't think that i'll tell you later am i the only person in the room who doesn't it um and now you've got your husband working with you as well yeah so we do it together yeah me and him do it together around the kids

it's a bit chaotic but we make it work so yeah it's really good we enjoy it yeah dried flowers business owner am Furness finishing that interview there. And if you missed out on our Doncaster special, you can head to BBC Sounds to listen to that programme there. Next, a few weeks ago, you may remember that Emma spoke to the founder

of the baby loss charity, the Mariposa Trust, Zoe Clark-Coates, about her tireless campaign for baby loss certificates to be issued by the government. After nine long years, they were finally introduced in England last month for parents who have lost a baby before 24 weeks of pregnancy. So many of you got in touch with your experiences,

and on Wednesday, Emma was joined by one listener who doesn't feel it's for her and another who applied straight away. But first, Emma shared her own experience of applying for a certificate after losing a baby in 2022. She explained the process and why it was an important decision for her. Filling in the form, it actually only took a matter of minutes, but it was more emotional than I had anticipated. One of the questions you're asked is when you lost your baby. I realised I didn't actually know what month and at that point even year.

If you can relate to any of this, you'll know that that time is a fog and there's a moment before the sonographer tells you the news, if that's the way you find out, as I did, and after. But I felt the act of applying for a baby loss certificate almost to be a political one. A refusal that something so major in our family's life was not to be erased, was something to be known about, recorded. And when the certificate arrived, a mere 10 days later, in its crisp envelope, I sort of wondered what this was when it dropped through the door and printed on thick white paper complete with an official government masthead. I've got it here in the

studio. I felt weirdly satisfied, almost vindicated. It had happened. There was some physical proof that something external to me, which my husband and our children, here it was, when they're older, could read as part of the story of our lives alongside perhaps our marriage certificates, birth certificates and all the other paraphernalia that documents our existences in a family file of sorts. Our certificate, when I take it back home, will be filed in the folder alongside the birth certificates of our other children. Children I am so very fortunate to have. And I wanted to share my experience of applying and receiving these new baby loss certificates in a bid to raise awareness of the new scheme and explore some of the issues around it. I'm joined by Dr. Michelle Tolfrey. You are here with your professional hat, I suppose, in some ways on as a psychologist. But you are also here as a woman with experience.

Yes. And a view that perhaps, well, in some cases does differ to mine in terms of these certificates. Tell us a bit more. So my experience is that I've had two losses. I've had an early loss, which was an ectopic pregnancy. And I also had a later loss. So my first daughter was stillborn at full term. So I have these really contradictory experiences of having a loss where I have nothing. I have no record. I have no mementos, no memories from that pregnancy. And then I have a certificate of stillbirth for my daughter, which was required by law. It was something I had to do. You at that point, I don't know if it's different now, but had to go to a registry office where there's lots of

other live babies to register the existence of the baby that was born but had died before she was born. When it was announced that these certificates were going to be launched I had these really conflicting feelings because I felt like I should want to apply for a certificate so I have this almost full record of my reproductive history, my reproductive story. But there was something within me that felt like that just wasn't going to be the right thing for me right now. I've been very lucky to go on to have another daughter and a number of years have passed. And I just worry that to go and apply for a certificate, I know how meaningful they are. I know how meaningful they are to so many people and for me I wonder whether then I would need to go and kind of really bond

with this baby in my mind that I actually hadn't allowed to build in my mind and this was a baby that I didn't know when their due date would be I hadn't thought of names because I didn't have that time to to bond with this baby in mind. And I worry that it's not going to be the right thing for me right now to go there and start to build that kind of deeper relationship and connection. That's not to say I won't in the future. But right now, this feels like the right thing for me. And I'm sure there's lots of people out there who in a similar position, maybe who've had multiple losses, maybe many, many losses,

and feel conflicted that they might want to apply for one and not the other, or for all of them or for none of them. And I think that it's just acknowledging that we have to do what's right for us rather than what we feel like is the right thing to do that other people might deem as right thank you for sharing that and um also i'm incredibly sorry for your losses thank you and i think what you've spoken to is how some people can't go back and don't want to yeah it's

it's a frightening thing to go back do you see that as some of the reason why people may not feel they can or should definitely because i think it's a bit like a jigsaw puzzle or a sort of jenga puzzle that you're if you move one of these parts there's a fear that well what's that going to mean for all the other parts how do i make sense of all these other parts of my story how do i make sense of um these other parts of my story? How do I make sense of, you know, would this subsequent child have been conceived? These are all sort of big things that I think are, they're very moving, they're very emotive.

And, you know, I think unless you've maybe been through that experience and explored it in a lot of depth, it's really hard to understand how meaningful all of these different parts of our story are. Holly Scott's on the line now. Holly, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here.

And I understand you have received your baby loss certificates. Is that right? Yes, I have. So I have four in total. The last three and a half years for us have been very much about, first of all, it was having our first baby who we did get around to having in January 2022. But we had two losses in the lead up to having her. And we've had two since in sort of trying to get there a second time. I'm very sorry. Very sorry indeed.

And you have also moved, I suppose, relatively fast to apply and have these certificates. What did it mean to you? Why did you want to do this? Well, the funny thing is that initially I wasn't sure that it was for me. I had been following the progress of the work that Zoe had been doing. I knew they were in the pipeline. And as they were sort of gaining a bit more traction in the news and the launch was approaching, I just felt myself kind of compelled to be involved in that conversation. And before I knew it, the morning that they were launched as the first thing that I did when I woke up, I found myself on the website, pouring these details into my phone just to apply for them. And within 15 minutes,

they were all done. It was weirdly something I didn't think that I needed but it turns out that it was really cathartic to put all that information somewhere outside of my brain outside of my body yes I was yeah I was quite surprised by how therapeutic it felt and what was it like to receive them um it kind of surprised me again I think because they're very official documents as as you would have seen. They come in a big envelope with hard backing from the government. It looks very official. And I thought, oh, my goodness, what are these?

And then suddenly remembered, like, oh, gosh, of course, that's what they are. And, you know, I skimmed over them and I felt a real sense of relief, I think, and reassurance. It was so validating to see these experiences somewhere physical that I could touch and I knew I'm not going to be displaying looking at the paper in case anybody is more interested about what you have to supply I mean there's all the information online but there's also you know the details asking if the sex was known the date of the loss the place of the loss and also the the name of the baby if you had a nickname if you had somewhere that you got to with that I personally actually didn't on that front but um i think you know seeing those things written down any of those details written down it's quite it's quite an extraordinary thing isn't it yeah it's an experience which is

very private we actually only named one of ours the one that we sort of got furthest along in gestation and was also the most sort of traumatic to bring to a close. So we sort of decided on a nickname between us and that's the first time I'd ever put it down somewhere. It's the first time I'd ever written it. There was something very powerful in doing that. There's more messages coming in, in terms of where you are with this.

Hayley has said, I have lost five babies in total. Four of these were early miscarriages. One was the loss of my son, Peter, when I was 22 weeks pregnant. Four of my pregnancies were the result of IVF. And me and my husband are still on our fertility journey to hopefully get to bring home one of our children one day. I have applied for a baby loss certificate for our son. I believe strongly that all steps that can be taken to recognise the lives of lost babies are so important. Following my labour to deliver Peter,

it meant so much to me that the midwife weighed him, helped me to choose a little outfit for him and handled him in the same way she would have if he had been born alive. These small gestures to recognise and respect him as a person were huge for me. When my son arrived silently onto the hospital bed, These small gestures to recognise and respect him as a person were huge for me. When my son arrived silently onto the hospital bed, the midwife's first words were, he's beautiful. Those two words will be with me forever. He was beautiful. He deserved to be recognised and remembered.

It was heartbreaking knowing that his birth would not be registered. These new baby loss certificates are such an important step for mothers like me. Hayley, I'm incredibly sorry. But again, thank you for sharing your message. And so they carry on. Many more coming in. I hope in some way that our discussion and going back to this now, they've started arriving, these baby loss certificates,

for those who would like them, those who are able to apply, but that will be changing. I hope that the ability to have this conversation this morning perhaps gives again another external place to be able to talk about what was and what perhaps nearly was and for that to seem real. Emma finishing that discussion on baby loss certificates there and if you've been affected by the issues raised there are support links available on the Women's Hour there are support links available on the Women's Hour website. Still to come on the programme, we hear from two surviving members of one of the first all-female rock and roll bands in the world, the Liverbirds. Also, do you believe

in women's intuition? We hear from one author who doesn't think we should call it that. And remember that you can enjoy Women's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, actor and healthcare assistant Vicky Knight was having a sleepover with her cousins above her grandfather's London pub at the age of eight when a fire broke out.

She was rescued by a pub regular named Ronnie Springer, but her two cousins, Christopher and Charlie, did not survive. Ronnie Springer also died trying to save them. More than 20 years later, nobody has been found guilty of causing the fire, which investigators believe was an arson attack. Now Vicky is starring in a film, Silver Haze, that retells the story of the attack, as well as other moments from her childhood. These real events are blended with fictional elements as well. It's Vicky's second film alongside director Sasha Pollock.

The first was Dirty God in 2019, which Vicky starred in despite having no acting experience. Vicky spoke to Emma about why she wanted to share her story. When we did the tour of Dirty Gods, we travelled the world. I travelled the world with Sacha Pollack, the director, and as we was on our journey, I was just telling her bits and pieces about my life story. She met my family, and I think it was on the plane to Australia,

she said, I think we should do another film together, but let's base it loosely upon your life story. So that's where the idea of making the film come from. And, you know, Sasha saw me over the years trying to get justice and trying to fight for my family and get answers. Not many people get to hear the ins and outs of the story because it just takes too much out of me to keep reliving that particular night and their memories. And in Silver Haze, I do tell, you know,

I remember seeing him melting in front of me like a candle, but that was a child's way of thinking. But, you know, I now understand that he was actually, his skin was melting off. And, you know, I remember the whole fire like it was yesterday. And, you know, I just, yeah, it's not a nice thing to keep going back to. Yeah, I mean, and as you say, you're still trying to find answers. Yes, yeah.

You know, I go to where the pub was every year and put a shrine there and put balloons up for the boys, for Charlie and Christopher that passed away. And, you know, to be able to put my story into a movie is just incredible, really. I haven't really got any words for it. I'm just so grateful and so thankful to Sasha, the director, allowing me to be able to do that. And also in the film, my real family play, my sister plays my sister and my brother and my nephew as well so to have them on set and to have them you know have a little bit

of happiness injected in back into the family is just just means the world to me you talked about skin there and melting and you sustained significant burns yes i did 33 percent of my burns full thickness um so yeah i was in hospital for three months um and then as soon as i got discharged i wanted to go back to school you know i was still bandaged up when i went back to school i did half days and and then that's when the bullying started and yeah, school and college wasn't great at all. You know, I was beat up pretty much every day walking to school because one particular girl didn't like the way I looked. No one just understood me.

No one understood the story. So it was really, really difficult. And how has it been also living as a young adult with, you know significant significant scarring it's difficult because i'm also a gay woman so to have them to to be visibly different and to also be a gay woman growing up was very very difficult because back then social media wasn't really a thing um so there wasn't really much support or charities out there that I could lean on and the only support I had really was my mum you know we just dealt with it

together and the only thing that really I could say that saved my life was was doing film you know especially with my first film Dirty God that's based on an acid attack a young mother in London who was involved in an acid attack and before that I didn't want to live I was suicidal I didn't want people to look to look at me and it wasn't until I see Dirty God for the first time in cinemas I see someone else but with my scars and that's the moment I realized hang on a minute there's nothing wrong with me this whole thing I had in my head wasn't true I wasn't a monster I wasn't just known as the girl with scars I'm Vicky you know and that's that's how I see myself now is I will never ever cover my

scars again so it's give me so much confidence and you know if I could be a voice for people that haven't found their voice yet then you know I've achieved something in life well also the the British Film Institute the BFI has pledged not to fund films where facial scarring is used to represent immorality and has cited the film Dirty God your film as an inspiration that must have been quite a moment yeah I mean when I got when especially when I was in school and that or even like for example I did work experience in a nursery and you know parents would look at me as if I had a disease they would snatch their kids off of me because they think their kids were going to catch it and things like that and you know I was always known as the the bad guy or I'd done

something wrong to get my scars I was always looked at as a villain and not a victim or a survivor you know and the fact that the BFI has pledged that is just amazing, you know. Because I didn't really think of it in the way of having scars would make you look like a bad guy. But thinking back to, for example, The Lion King, the bad guy is called Scar. I'm just glad that, you know, it's not going to be the bad guys are going to have something wrong with them. Because you could be the most beautiful person in the world, but be a serial killer, you know. And be the bad guy. Yeah. And be the bad guy. Yeah, and be the bad guy, yeah.

You have another job. I do. So a healthcare assistant, is that right? Yes, yeah. You have worked, I believe, or work at one of the hospitals which treated you with burns as a child. So that must be also a very powerful connection. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's very rewarding.

I don't actually work there now. I've moved on to another hospital that also received me as when the fire first happened. That was the receiving hospital and I got transferred to the burn unit. To have nurses and doctors that remember me as this eight-year-old child that was severely burnt. Now the tables have turned and now I'm helping them. And I actually looked after one of the police officers that was on my case. That was on the case right from the beginning. One of the first police officers that was on scene. And then I ended up looking after him in the hospital.

He just looked at me and went, oh, my God, you're that little girl. And it was just amazing because he looked after me and my family and now I was looking after him and it's just you know them them special connections. That's incredible. Yeah. Are you hoping are you thinking there could be an answer from the point of view of who started that fire and how much would that mean to you and your family? I mean it would be very very nice to to get justice and you know to have the answers and to allow Christopher, Charlie and Ronnie to actually rest. But, you know, I'm just hoping with Silver Hayes, it's not for more justice and answers, it's for people just to look up to me and think, if she can do it, I can do it, you know,

because I've come so close to giving up and there's got to be things in place that keeps people going. Actor Vicky Knight there. Lots of you reacted to Vicky's interview. Someone on Twitter messaged us to say, this is why I can never miss an episode of Woman's Hour. Stories like this. What a brave, strong and articulate young lady. Have you ever had a nagging feeling that something wasn't quite right? Was there a

great job that seemed perfect on paper but you didn't go for it because of a gut feeling or a niggling sense that your partner was having an affair? Some might call that feeling women's intuition. But journalist and author of a book called Emotional Labour, Rose Hackman, believes that we should stop calling it that. She joined Emma in the studio and began by explaining what women's intuition means. So women's intuition, I think, is a kind of a bit of an amorphous thing that maybe different people might have different opinions

of what it means, whether it's having a gut or an instinct that something might happen, whether it's being able to tap into intuitively the feelings of the people around you. It's a question that I really delved into at this point nine years ago when I started writing my book, Emotional Labour, that came out last year. And so much of the feedback I was getting initially as a journalist who was looking into emotional labour is, you know, women are just better at emotions, women are just better intuition. And so I set about trying to figure out, is this actually true? What does the research show? The research is actually pretty damning.

And it shows that if women are indeed better at quote unquote intuition, it is not because of biology, it's because of subordinate positionality. So it's because we are in this society still expected to cater to the feelings, to the experiences of other people, often men. There's this seminal study from 1985 that pairs up randomly whether women or men into pairings of leaders and subordinates. And what they find is that leaders do not have to express any kind of intuition to their subordinates. Not really very surprising.

And subordinates are expected to be extremely perceptive to the expressions of the leader, regardless of gender. And that's just one of the many, many, many pieces of studies across neuroscience and psychology. Which is fascinating. I'm only coming in at this point. So because some people may be hearing the phrase women's intuition and then hearing emotional labor and they might be thinking, how do those two things go together? So are you saying there's no such thing as women's intuition? I mean, effectively, if I'm trying to be bombastic, I would say there is no such thing as women's intuition. It's subordinate intuition.

It's what women have had to do to survive the structures put around them of perceptiveness that anyone who's in a subordinate position, in this case, women in a patriarchy, are expected to do, have to do, as you say, not just to survive, but to figure ways out to not, you know, ruffle the feathers of the person who has power. The work ramps. I mean, I love this because, by the way, something I'm really doing at the moment is I'm not making conversation with people if they're not making an effort back. So if I've done a load of questions, because you can guess I'm pretty good at that, I'm facilitating, when I'm off the clock, you ain't getting it. And it has happened more with men than women, as you may imagine. So I sit in silence with some men and we see what happens. I love that so much. There's this trick with emotional labour, which is a thing in our economy, also in our private lives, of course, so many people refuse to say it's a real thing. They just say it's nonsense, in spite of the fact that it's the central part of millions of jobs. And one of the best ways to get people to actually

see it as real is to withhold it. You know, so if you're a woman and you're expected to constantly make people feel a tease around you or you're expected to be terribly good at conversation and you stop doing it, suddenly, you know, people are very uncomfortable because you're withholding that emotional labour that they've actually come to rely on, but they refuse to treat as real or even valuable. Yes, it's such a good example. I mean, you've also given examples, haven't you, in work, you know, where there's now emotional labour baked into certain roles, and those roles are often seen as feminised, for instance, waitressing, as opposed to waitering, where if you weren't polite when taking somebody's food order, you would be penalised, it would be commented upon. So you're right that the way to perhaps show something like this is to withdraw it. But just to go back to the difference between emotional labour or how

we're talking about emotional labour and women's intuition, how do you explain those two in relation to each other? I mean, emotional labour is the editing work of emotions a person will do on themselves in order to have an effect on the emotions of the people around them. So it's a smile, as you say accurately, or it's um that you will do to make other people feel good inside inside regardless of whether you're feeling good inside it's an expectation that we have long placed on women and we have rendered invisible devalued in spite of the fact that's one of the most essential forms of work in our society because it's the work that you know keeps families communities economies going so what's the difference between emotional labor and women's

intuition there are so many ways in which we refuse to name emotional labor as real but in our society we talk about basically versions of emotional labor as real women's intuition is one version of emotional labor it's a version of it. Absolutely. It's one of the ways in which we've internalised and actually fixed in place a set of skills and duties and activities that are not just offloaded onto women, but offloaded onto, you know, marginalised communities. So it's something that, for example, black people might feel like they have to do towards white people.

It's definitely something that gets racialised. In some of your videos where you've been posting on this on social media, in fact, there were, I understand, black people saying this is like racial code. This is to that point. Absolutely. I think, you know, black scholars have done an amazing job, especially across the 20th century, to really talk about the, you know, double bind that they find themselves in, the white mask that Black people often, whether in the UK, in Europe, or in America, which is where I'm based,

you know, forced into wearing in the white-dominated societies. And I think as women, we can relate to this kind of existential state that we're forced into. And actually in my videos, as you so kindly pointed out, a lot of people commented suddenly these big aha moments. One person commented this idea that someone looked at him, a woman looked at him, not like a hawk, but a mouse. You know, if you've been brought up in, let's say, a family where you have a father or husband who has a very bad temper, the people around that husband, very sadly, are going to be taught to walk on eggshells,

are going to be taught to watch that person and be very careful about what they say or do. They're going to be very good at perceptiveness and intuition. They're going to be doing that defensive emotional labour. Yes. And I mean, there will be those perhaps, because that's why I asked you to explain about the relationship between emotional labour and female intuition, this idea of women's intuition. There will be those women who believe, though, sort of separating that, that as women, they do have some intuition. There is a knowing or something, you know, whether it's related to child rearing through to just human interaction and being better at perhaps some of that. Are you saying that is there, but it's the reason that it's there? Or are you, you know, the reason that it's there is because of how we've

been codified and all the points you've already made? Or are you saying it's not necessarily there? I'm definitely saying it's there. It's something we've been trained into being very good at. It's something that, in fact, if we don't do from a young age, we're policed. You know, if we're not smiling on the street,

we will be told to smile. If we are not smiling at work, we will be told we're abrasive. We will not be given those opportunities that our fellow men will. So what should it be called if it's not called women's intuition?

Should it be called forced niceness onto women or forced capacity I wrote a book called emotional labor so I would argue it needs to be called emotional labor yes I suppose that just takes in lots of things maybe in some people's minds but yes um you would argue that and and rightly so I'm sure what just just with a tiny bit of time we've got left together, I think this is absolutely fascinating. And we've just had, for instance, a message from a nurse saying, I'm a nurse, emotional labour is a huge thing, invisible, but felt by both nurses, patients and colleagues. It would become visible if we withdrew our emotional efforts, but it is a compulsory part of the role. So this will never happen, says Elaine in Glasgow. So another example away from the serving of food through to the care of patients. So to your point, if it's withdrawn, it's noticed. What are you advising, if you are women in particular,

to do when it comes to, if they recognise this, when it comes to beyond recognising it, what to do about how to navigate that? I mean, I think fundamentally, whether you call it emotional labor, whether you call it women's intuition, it is a superpower that clearly is available to all genders, but women are just better at it, you know, for now. I think that when aware with it, just like what you're doing, you know, we can choose whether or not we want to be doing it, we can become aware of the degree to which we do it, we can become aware of the degree to which it's expected of us in ways that are not necessarily always fair I think it's really

important when we're having these conversations to also remember that this is a valuable set of traits it's a valuable skill set so I'm not saying let's all go on emotional labor and women's intuition strike it's just a question of actually rendering, you know, making it visible, making it valued and ideally sharing it across, you know, people, groups. So honestly, what about men having really good intuition? That would be great. It would be wonderful, you know, to have men who are constantly thinking about how they're being perceived and, you know, what other people are feeling. Journalist and author Rose Hackman there. Finally, girls don't play guitars. That's what John Lennon said to four working-class girls from 1960s Liverpool who went on to form one of the first all-female rock and roll bands in the world. The Liverbirds proved John Lennon wrong by touring stadiums across Europe,

playing with Chuck Berry, the Kinks, the Rolling Stones and winning over tough crowds at Hamburg's legendary star club all in the space of just five years. But unlike their male counterparts, the same length of career and riches didn't follow. Emma spoke to two surviving members of the band about their new book, The Liverbirds. Bass player Mary McGlory and drummer Sylvia Saunders

joined Emma in the studio and Sylvia began by giving her reaction to hearing their music again. Absolutely fantastic going back there, but we're like 16-year-olds again. What memories come to mind for you, Mary? For me, listening to Peanut Butter. Well, going to Hamburg, of course, on the train, practising songs, getting to Hamburg and going on this fantastic stage. And the people just went crazy.

We turned around and started waggling our behinds because they were shouting the same as they did to the Beatles. Max Schau. And that was our Schau. And the people started throwing money on stage and were really, really going mad. I wonder if I'd just take you back a tiny bit, Sylvia, with how you actually got together as a band. Yes, well, first of all, Mary, she had photographs taken because they were going to form a group. And then we saw an advert in the paper, which was the Mersey Beat then,

and that these four girls were going to start a group. And Valerie and I had the idea also, because Valerie was lead guitarist. paper which was the Mersey beat then and that these four girls were going to start a group and Valerie and I had the idea also because Valerie was lead guitarist but then I couldn't play the guitar because my fingers were too small for the fret so I said I'll get a kit of drums and then we went to Mary's house and we said have you got a band is everything going all right and she said no we stopped we couldn't play and Valerie said well don't worry you've got the instruments I'll teach you and that's how we come together that's amazing and the name who named you well as a matter of fact it was my cousin who was in the group at

first but she couldn't play neither so she said before she left she had a good idea for this name, Liverbirds, because up to then, nobody had thought of using this word referring to females from Liverpool. And that's how we got the name. Yes, synonymous with Liverpool. And taking us back to that time, you mentioned the Beatles, but it was a really important time, wasn't it? Culturally, music-wise, but mainly men. It was a really important time, wasn't it, culturally, music-wise,

but mainly men? It was all men. I mean, when we first seen the Beatles on stage, we just thought, well, why the hell aren't women doing this as well? And that gave us the idea, let's do that. But like Sylvia said, my first group, my cousins, we couldn't play. I love that you couldn't play play but you still formed a band. That's ambition.

Both the instruments as well and when we got to the shop we said to each other, well what instrument are you going to play? And I said, well I want to play bass like Paul McCartney so that's how I got a bass. And this quote from John Lennon about girls not playing guitars how did that come about or who did he

say it to? He said it to all of us. The four of us were in the cavern, and Bob Waller, the DJ, said, would you like to come and meet the boys who had just come off stage in the dressing room in their undies, getting themselves dried with a big towel? And Bob Waller said to Paul McCartney and John Lennon,

this is the Liveabirds. They're going to be the first all-female band. And Paul McCartney said, oh, what a great idea. And John Lennon just looked at us and said, girls don't play guitars. What did he say, Pat? What was the response? Well, we said, we'll show him. We're going to show him girls can play guitars and drums, of course.

Yes. Because I couldn't play the drums at all neither And did you say that to him at that time or was that one of those moments where you think of the response later, you know, the brilliant thing to say As we sort of come out the dressing room we both look, well four of us, Mary and I both looked at each other

and turned around and said, we'll show him won't we? And we did Yes, and I mean going to Hamburg, this whole journey, how did that come about? We heard about a man coming from Hamburg to do auditions for the Star Club. It was Bill Harry from the Merseybees who told us to go to these auditions. We auditioned and Henry Henroyd, the man, said right away, oh, we definitely have to have you in Hamburg.

And how did you find it? What was the experience like, Sylvia? It was fantastic, but of course we couldn't go right away because I was only 17. So we had to get special permission from Bow Street Magistrates' Court for me to go. Wow. Yeah, and so I got the permission and when we actually arrived at the Star Club,

it was absolutely, we couldn't believe it. You know, we saw the street with all lights, all sex. You know, we just saw an amazement. And of course, Mary was going to be a nun, don't forget. Wow. The bass playing nun. Yeah. Taking Hamburg by storm.

There's still time. I was going to say, is that the latter aspiration? Yeah, I can give up, yes. Just been a bit distracted along the way. But it went well in Hamburg. I mean, you guys are still huge there, right? You have a real following. Yes, every time I go over to Hamburg,

because, of course, Mary, she married a German, who was lovely, Frank Dostal, who wrote Yes, Sir Sir I Can Boogie and you know as she is still there living there 60 years she's and I go over and sometimes we'll go to a show to see something and people come over to us and say you're the live a bit aren't you and we're signing autographs that's amazing that is amazing and I was looking back at a video of you performing Peanut Butter and it's really striking, you know people may have heard

your music but maybe not everybody has or can necessarily think about what you looked like and how you dressed and how you presented yourself and you didn't trade on your sexuality, you know you look in some ways like the boys or they look like you whichever way around but was that a very deliberate choice, did you talk about that? yeah it was at the time we didn't

want to be going on on stage in frilly dresses or things like that and Astrid Kirker who was a good friend of the Beatles who was engaged to the one that died in Hamburg she helped us have the idea of having these black trousers and white frilly blouses on. So a tiny bit of frill, but not too much. A nod to a frill. And hardly any make-up. Yes, and it's a very cool thing to look back on, I have to say. How do you feel about it now, that whole look and the way you came across? Well, as a matter of fact, it's very popular at the moment.

When you walk into the shops, you see all these frilly blouses. All the frilly blouses are coming back and also the trousers with the little slit at the front. Yes. What we used to call then the, they call them boot bootleg trousers now, don't they? They are. I'm wearing a little bit today. No slit

but yeah, you're right, they're back. Yeah, yeah. And was it for you, I mean, how do you think you experienced because now, you know, we still see the Rolling Stones on tour, for instance, right? You know, and I wonder how that feels to you having come up at a similar time. Well, as a matter of fact, we are starting off again.

Five years ago, we got an offer for a musical about us and that really took off called Girls Don't Play Guitars in the Royal Chorus. And now we've just recorded a new album with the two girls who play Pam and Val in the musical. And of course, the book. Yes, which is what we're talking about.

And many stories in there. I suppose it's also just that what the lives were like for you being in the first situation of a female rock band here and how it was for the men as well. It is different, isn't it? Well, I mean, we mixed with them you know i mean we were looked upon as part of the gang and even the females in who were like the groupies in them days they accepted us yeah in

fact you know they used to come to us and say to help them you know because they used to be in the beer shop where the Beatles used to go all everybody used to help them, you know, because they used to be in the beer shop where the Beatles used to go all, everybody used to sort of congregate into this beer shop. And they'd ask our advisor, Oh, could you tell us what do we say to the boys? Because of course, they were trying to speak English, you know? Yes. And your groupies, how are they? Oh, fantastic. Your groupies, how were they? Ooh. Fantastic. Our husbands always said they were our first groupies. Yeah.

I feel there was a lot more that was about to be said here by Sylvia. Yes, yeah, that's true. Read the book. Mary McGlory and Sylvia Saunders from the band The Liverbirds There. That's it from me on this edition of Weekend Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your company. Join Nuala McGovern on Monday, where she'll be speaking to Academy Award-winning actresses Jessica Chastain and Anne Hathaway,

who play best friends in the new psychological thriller Mother's Instinct. That's Woman's Hour on Monday at 10am. Have a lovely weekend. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.