Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Leah Williamson, Performance poet Salena Godden, Sex education in schools

Episode Date: April 1, 2023

The Conservative MP Miriam Cates said in the House of Commons that children were being exposed to “graphic” and "age inappropriate" material during their sex education classes. The Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has decided to bring forward a review of the Department for Education’s Relationships and Sex Education guidance in England. Two parents, Fiona, a listener and parent of four and Clare Page who was concerned about what her daughter was being taught discuss. Sian Richardson from Pembrokeshire in Wales is Number 12 on our Woman’s Hour Power List 2023. Sian started The Blue-tit Chill Swimmers nearly 10 years ago, a cold water swimming community which now boasts an incredible 100,000 members world-wide. She explains why she’s encouraging people to get in the water and enjoy the outdoors.Leah Williamson, who took the Lionesses to victory at the Euros in 2022, tops the Woman's Hour Power List 2023. She explains what role her mum plays in her success and talks about male allies in women’s football.Money and Love: An Intelligent Roadmap for Life’s Big Decisions, is written by Stanford professor emeritus Myra Strober, who is an early feminist economist and Abby Davisson, one of Myra's former pupils who is now a social innovation expert. They give detailed advice about navigating the crossroads of finances within a relationship at different life stages.Pessimism is for Lightweights is a new collection of poems by the celebrated performance poet Salena Godden. Salena discusses the collection, how poetry can confront misogyny and injustice, and why she personified death as a woman in her debut novel Mrs Death Misses Death.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Paula McFarlane Editor: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. In a moment, we'll hear about what parents want when it comes to sex and relationship education in schools. And we hear from the England football captain who tops the Woman's Hour Powerlist 2023, Leah Williamson, who discusses the role her mum has to play in her success. I have a life outside of sport as well. And I think when I go back into that world, she can just sometimes see if I am struggling or, you know, things that we maybe wouldn't vocalise that easily. And even if we don't talk about it, I think she knows how to

pull me out of those times when I'm just a little bit in my own head. Also in the programme, what you should be thinking about as a woman when it comes to money and love, and the performance poet and writer Selina Godden, who celebrates courage and resistance. So put the kettle on or pour yourself a cold one and settle in. It's going to be a good one. But first, earlier this month, the Conservative MP Miriam Cates

said in the House of Commons that children were being exposed to graphic and age-inappropriate material during their sex education classes. The Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has decided to bring forward a review of the Department of Education's Relationships and Sex Education Guidance in England. So what do parents want when it comes to sex and relationship education in schools. We heard from two parents, Fiona, a listener and parent of four, who wrote in to us about the topic, and Claire Page, who was concerned about what her daughter was being taught in a sex education lesson. She made a Freedom of Information request to the school trust to have a copy of the lesson plan, accompanying slides and other materials,

which was not fully granted on the grounds of commercial sensitivity and for the privacy of the teacher. The lesson was carried out by an external supplier of relationships and sex education. Claire then took the case to the Information Commissioner's office and they ruled that the initial decision was correct. Claire is now going to tribunal to appeal the ICO's decision notice. Well, Nuala started by asking what Claire's concerns were about that particular lesson and what year it was being taught in. It was taught to year 10. And I think the chief thing that concerned me to begin with was that it wasn't as it was described. So parents have the right to withdraw their child from sex ed. And in this case, the subject was consent.

And I thought that that was a good subject to learn about and happily gave permission for my daughter to take part. But when she got home, she described something a little bit different. You know, she was saying that she'd been taught she lives in a heteronormative society. That's a very bad thing. And she should be sex positive in her attitude to relationships. I think she was taught about intersectionality too. I obviously can't be fully sure what she learned, but you know, I go by what she tells me. That's why I asked to see the lesson and was unable to, so couldn't fully verify what all of these things were. So then I did a little bit of digging online to find out what the charity might mean by these things.

And actually, when you look up the definitions of sex positivity, although it's a very nice, sounds positive, it actually is a very political theory. It has a lot of controversial issues that I think wouldn't meet the Education Act's requirement for schools to be impartial. Well, let's talk about that because I think sex positivity, people hear that term.

If you look it up, some of the explanations might be to have sex as part of a positive part of your life. What was it that you found political about it? Well, I can give an example of a definition on one mainstream provider, for example. So they say to us, sex positivity means providing a sex education free of shame and discrimination. And the links between shame and sex have deep of shame and discrimination, and the links between shame and sex have deep roots in colonisation, the violent enforcement of ideals of sexual expression, and the demonisation of anything that isn't heteronormative, white, or Christian. Elsewhere, I've read that it means stepping away from heteronormative and monogamy

based assumptions, and being non-judgmental and accepting about sexual practices that are considered to deviate from the norm. I don't know where that is coming from and obviously I don't have them on to defend themselves but what you're saying is that you feel it is partial. You heard me speak a little bit earlier about impartiality. It seemed that it was up to the school to vet the RSE providers. Is it that you don't trust the school to do that? I think schools aren't ready for this. I think the third sector has quite a strong and established vision of what they want to put into schools. I know my school was perhaps quite naive in letting this come in. When I asked for the lesson plan, my school couldn't provide it to me because they

didn't even have it. And so that means they aren't actually in a position to really scrutinise themselves, I think, or perhaps don't look at it enough beforehand. Also, there's often quite a big difference between what the external provider might do online, which is their wider offering, and the sort of small part that they present to the school, so that the school doesn't get the full picture either. And without us having the actual slides and looking at the actual words, we can't, as parents, we can't make a complaint to our school. We can't compare it to our school's own RSE policy. And even more than that, I don't think Ofsted can even get to see these materials, which is quite a concern for the regulation of education. Well, I can't confirm or deny that for Ofsted on whether they've seen, you know, specific provider materials.

And of course, this was one lesson with one provider. But you decided to take action for the reasons you've outlined? Yes, absolutely. I just think that especially in the publicly funded sector, these are lesson plans that are being paid for by the public purse. And we, not just parents, but all of us really need to be able to have a view on the way that our young generation is being brought up and to be able to see that governments and teachers and all the different parties involved are doing an impartial and fair job. What would you like relationships and sex education or SE to contain? What is appropriate? I think it's hard for me to say. I'm not an expert. I'm not a teacher. And I have some doubts about the entire premise of teaching relationships. I think relationships are learned through having them in our families and giving the power to a part of society to sort of determine what that looks like is quite controversial. It's very difficult to suit everyone. So that the job is making something that is universal, universal principles, not political theories. Just on that point, Claire,

many would say the reason they have RSE for some in schools is because perhaps the family is not providing a healthy relationship or not providing the correct information, even for stuff that people can agree on, to that child. Yes. And I can't imagine there are many people who would deny children being taught all those important facts, the basic important facts. I think it's the higher level aspects that are of concern. So if you're teaching children the biological facts, the procreative and disease facts, and also important legal facts, so we can talk about consent, because that's a legal issue, and it's very clear age of consent, and so on. It's when we start to discuss how it is that we should and shouldn't engage in our sexual relations from moral points of view with value statements and value judgments added to it, that it becomes much more problematic. And I don't think the balance is right. I don't think parents are. I think something is being pressed into RSE that not all parents will agree with. And that's a real problem.

When we were talking about what it is that you might like to see in there, and I know you say that you are not an expert on it, but when it comes to pornography, and consent was actually what initiated, I suppose, this whole debacle for you with your daughter, what way would you like that to be talked about? Because we do know that we live in a social media world, that pornography is something that children seem to be coming up against younger and younger. Well, this comes back, I think, to the sex positivity message. There's a really incoherent position, I think, coming through at the moment.

So I think everyone's in agreement that there is too much porn in proximity to children and it is doing them harm so all sides agree on that I think what people disagree about is how we treat that and for some people there's an idea that you mustn't shame children you must make them feel comfortable about the fact that they have seen or are watching porn and you're going to help them sort of navigate their way through that towards ethical porn. So there's quite a lot of talk about watching feminist or ethical porn or making sure that the porn industry is paid for and things which actually accept that the porn watching will happen and teachers together should be giving that singular message of don't watch it. We haven't got a clear mandate from the public of what we want to say to our kids. And yet the third sector are going forward with a very sex positive message about, you know, sometimes saying that porn isn't even a bad thing. It's just how you, you know, you critically digest it and things like that, which I don't think is a universally sound or safe answer. And it starts to also make us a

little bit relaxed about the age of consent as well, which I don't think is the right thing. I'm also joined by Fiona, who's a listener and parent of four, who wrote into us on this topic. Fiona, you're hearing a little bit from Claire there, but what's your view on how early children should be taught about sex and relationships? My view is as early as possible. I have four children ranging from four up to 13. So they're within the school system. It's obviously got to be age appropriate. And I know that is going to be somewhat of a different definition for different people.

But from an early age, children should be taught body positivity, should be taught about their bodily functions. It shouldn't be shrouded in shame or taboo. And my experience of sex education within my children's school has been pretty positive. to teach children about things such as safe touch, things about the changes they will go through. Up to, I believe it's around eight, they're actually taught the biology of sex. They're talking about menstruation, about puberty in boys. But they're also, most importantly, from a very early age, talking about healthy relationships. And as a parent, this is key. And this is built on throughout the curriculum. So by the time they are experiencing puberty, they may be seeing things

on social media, which will happen. They have the tools to begin to navigate that. There are adult issues, for example, like pornography, which is illegal to watch until somebody has reached 18. But as we have heard, and example, like pornography, which is illegal to watch until somebody has reached 18. But as we have heard and there has been evidence, it is more diffuse, obviously, into younger people than that. Should teachers be proactive about that or reactive? Do you think it should be initiated by the teacher? I think the earlier conversations can happen, the better. I think in an ideal world, our children would not be watching pornography until the age of consent, or pornography would be very tame. Certainly the

extreme or misogynistic pornography would not exist. Now, as a parent, I can put as many safeguards in place to ensure my children don't see that the reality is children are tech savvy even if they're not watching it they may be past it by friends I want them the teachers and parents to get ahead of that so and to be having those conversations around what they're viewing and what that means in real life so my son my eldest was um in year six, which would have been around 10 and 11, when there was an incident where a boy asked a girl in the class to send nudes. And that was, the teacher had to deal with that reactively. I think they dealt with it very well, and parents were informed. But it would have perhaps been better had it been discussed as part of sex education, because that

has very serious ramifications. I mean mean you're essentially dealing in child pornography and it those conversations did happen but had they happened earlier that incident might not have taken place and some people of course um do not like the term child pornography they prefer the term child sexual abuse what about that Claire instances like Fiona brings up and she would prefer that the teacher be proactive. Well, it's very difficult, isn't it? Because in order to save one problematic incident, you're going to have to perhaps slightly spoil an innocence that a lot of children are enjoying. This is something we really haven't got a clear answer to. And I don't think it's been debated properly. I don't think I think we're just running ahead with actually what third parties feel might be the best answer for them. And we need.

Sorry, Clare, to interrupt you, but I think Fiona is saying this as a parent, not as a third party provider. She's talking about it just in reference to her kids. Well, yes. And but it will be. I think the answers are being delivered by the third sector at the moment. And, you know, actually, I mean, my feeling is, is that we should to sexualise them early, even in a defensive manner, because that's still exposing children to these ideas that are out of their age group. I, in an ideal world, I think we're all coming from the same position. We don't want children sexualised. Of course we don't. This idea that children are somehow enjoying this innocent bubble, I don't think that's necessarily true of a lot of children,

you know, whether they have older siblings, they have peers, they will be shown this material, sadly, at some point. And we have to get ahead of the game to ensure that they have the tools at hand to understand what they are seeing, and hopefully to have the relationship with a teacher, a parent, to be able to discuss this fully. And you can listen back to Monday's special programme on sex education via BBC Sounds. Now, on Tuesday, we were live from the Radio Theatre for a very special edition of the programme when we revealed the Women's Hour Power List, showcasing the 30 most remarkable

women in sport in the UK right now. It's such an exciting time for women's sport in this country after the success of the Lionesses last summer at the Euros, when England lifted a major football trophy for the first time since 1966, the women brought it home. There's been more attention, more funding and more interest than ever before. And there is so much more to come this year. The Women's Ashes, the Cycling Women's Tour, the Netball Super League Grand Final and the Football World Cup, to name just a few.

Our Power List features many outstanding women who are involved in sports at the elite level. But here at Women's Hour, we felt it was just as important to celebrate those in the grassroots sector who are bringing about real change in their communities. Number 12 on our power list is Sian Richardson from Pembrokeshire in Wales. Sian started the Blue Tit Chill Swimmers nearly 10 years ago, a cold water swimming community which now boasts an incredible 100,000 members worldwide. On stage with Nuala and joining in the conversation were Ebony Rainford-Brent, one of the Powerlist judges, and Jessica Crichton, who was the chair. Nuala started by asking Sian what her initial reaction was when she found out she'd been chosen to be

on the Woman's Hour Women in Sport Powerlist. Speechless, and that doesn't happen very often. OK. I normally have plenty to say, but I was speechless. And I suppose the interesting reaction for me was I went straight back to my school days when I was that person who was no good at sport and was treated as such in school. And it interested me that I went straight back there. And I just wanted to say that look at this we can

all do anything. Let's talk about what you do because you have inspired so many people and that is part of the reason of why you're here today. What is it about cold water swimming that has invigorated you and all these people who have followed you into that freezing cold water? Well, I never envisaged any of this when I started doing it. And what has grown over the years has not shocked me, but has intrigued me as well, that this act of going into the water. So I'm always asked, of course, what is it about the cold water it's what happens around the cold water the cold water is that anchor but it's the community around it so I listen to a lot of people saying I could never do it I don't know how you do it I don't like cold showers I don't like being cold all of these things

it's the community the blue tit community or the community around cold water so we don't want to do something like this we've been told it's good for us but oh i don't know i don't like i don't want to do it so then we we find the courage to do it we turn up then we find the courage to get undressed and get into whatever it is that we're wearing to get in the water but but i'm going to stop you there for one moment because even that can be a massive thing for somebody to be in a swimming costume or whatever in front of other people, you know, and to put themselves out there, really. This is it. This is the first big thing. We often hear people saying, oh, I wished I'd done this earlier. I've been stalking the blue tits for six months, 12 months. But that's a natural thing to do because we're looking at

the pictures on the pages maybe. Do I look like the person in there? Am I going to be accepted? Are they going to make me swim six miles? You're looking for all of this confirmation. And I should say on your website, for those that haven't seen it yet, and it's great, it is fun and fabulous. There's people in really bright colours, all body sizes and types, and it seems like a very fun, inclusive atmosphere. It is, and you don't necessarily know this until you turn up. So you turn up, you've made this decision, you're brave, I've done it, I've done it, I'm here.

Then you make the decision to actually get undressed. It could be a swimsuit, trunks, it could be a wetsuit. It doesn't matter what it is, it's still massive to you. Then, of course, you go into the cold water. So the adrenaline has been building and when you hit that cold water, it is cold, but the community around you are encouraging you to go forth and so in you go, in you go. And then you get in the water, it's cold, massive, oh my goodness me. And then you're starting to realise, well it's really cold and I'm not sure I like it, but I'm still alive, I'm still here. and people are telling you around you you are amazing well done

and then you do it and then you your skin adapts you get used to it and that's when it happens you look around it's amazing I'm alive I've done it people are saying well done and of course the best bit is coming you're getting out and you know you know that there's coffee there's cake there's biscuits there's people who haven't swum because lots of blue tits don't swim we don't mind they're waiting there with the fire or a robe or whatever and you get out and then of course your family tell you're amazing your friends tell you you're amazing and slowly slowly slowly you really start to believe that you are the amazing person that you are but for whatever reason you'd forgotten that or you didn't realize

that and that is just the best thing and it builds and builds and builds so when people say it's changed their lives it doesn't happen overnight it's this gradual building of actually I'm okay I can go into cold water I can do this thing that a lot of people say they can't do and you really do start to feel amazing you don't need to go in very often you know once a week even it doesn't matter and you don't need to stay in very long the most important i'm trying to convince you lot to come this is what i was just about to say sean we met in the green room a few moments ago i'm nearly i'm on the fence i'm nearly convinced about this cold water thing i'm not sure get in there um but i was more intrigued about you

because i think one of the things that has always struck me, I'm sure we've all had to do it in this space, is the skill of influence, getting people on board with your message. And I'm intrigued about how you got to that point. Is it something that you've always just, the passion flows out of you? Have you had to develop how you bring people on board and lead? What have you done personally

that's allowed you to get 100,000 members together? I was brought up in a family by a mother who was quite a strong woman and who always used to just say, do something. If you don't like it, don't do it again. And so I was always encouraged to do things that sometimes I didn't like and didn't do again. And I've always quite liked to challenge, but I was driven to do this really because I wasn't very well and I was diagnosed with depression and I came again, my mother would have been like what do you mean depression come on shoulders back off you go don't be ridiculous

so I was quite embarrassed about it and somebody said you need to start running which was ridiculous thing to say to me I mean absolutely ridiculous at that time so I started running in the dark because I was so embarrassed and then I signed up for a half marathon ridiculous it was unachievable at the time in my brain that was unachievable and I did it and then I quite liked it because I liked this my family saying well done you're amazing my friends well done you're amazing I thought this is actually quite nice I quite like it I like the attention and so I just carried on doing things and so that I suppose where partly where my passion comes from when people say I can't do something because I'm this or I'm that or I can't possibly

yes you can you can and I'll help you do it or all these blue tits around the world they are the ones who are pushing it forward you know yes we've got HQ in Pembrokeshire and we've got my family who are all supportive and we've got the people who run the groups, the admins. They're all brilliant. They, as well as the 100,000 blue tits, are the ones doing this now. Come on, we can do it. Together we can do it. You don't have to be anything. You don't have to be an amazing swimmer.

You don't have to be whatever. Just come on. Let's start little by little. So I think it comes from... I'm nearly sold. I'm nearly sold. Yeah, I'm nearly sold. Jessica, you going in?

I mean, when I first saw it i said definitely definitely not but now that i'm listening to you i'm like you know maybe i should actually give that a try maybe maybe i've now said it on live radio um where would i do this if i live in london i'm not going to jump in the Thames, am I? Am I? Yes. Yeah. So in London, we have the Tooting Tits. And we have the Tottenham Tits. Okay. And so you can. So what you do, we've got a website. On there is a map.

And our logo is where all the groups are on the map. You click on the logo. You join the Facebook group. You go along and swim because anybody can put swims on there. So I might say 5 o'clock on Porcelli Beach. Tomorrow night you come along and then somebody else will do it. So you just join. And what constitutes kind of a safe, open place for someone to swim?

They're thinking about doing this. There are lots of places. I mean, a lot of places like are run by businesses. So you turn up and you pay to go and swim in lakes particularly in the built-up areas you so you know that that is very safe it's it's lifeguarded and it's got changing rooms and it's all very lovely and some people choose to do that or they have no choice they have to do that or in my case out in Pembrokeshire we just rock up on a beach and we go swimming and there are apps to tell you about the water quality,

you know, if it's something that is important to check in your area. In Pembrokeshire, we're very fortunate. We can just about swim anywhere. But join a group. That's the best way to get started. Join a group. That's really good advice. We've got no excuse now, have we?

No, you haven't. Exactly. I was wondering, now that you are a seasoned, open water, cold swimmer, on the woman's hour power list, do you just run into the icy cold water now? No. No, I don't. No. And I really don't. So I very much believe in the power of the community. I live above a beach. I have every opportunity to go and swim on this beach or dip in the sea on this beach every single day. If I go alone, I'll go and look at it and go, no, it doesn't look very nice today.

Oh, no, it's not doing it for me. And I mean, I perhaps will go in. But if there's somebody else with me, I'm as brave as anything. I'll go in and I'll do it. But I still look at that water, wherever it is, and go, oh, I know it's cold. But I know, I know that prize that's coming now.

I know if I pluck up the courage to go in and stay in for two minutes, you don't need to stay in any longer than that. I know that I am going to feel amazing because I still, all this time on, I still think I'm a superhero when I go into the water, no matter how many years I've been doing it. Well, you are a superhero.

You're on the Woman's Hour Power List. Inspiring stuff from Sian Richardson there. And coming in at number one on the Woman's Hour Power List 2023 is the England football captain who took the Lionesses to victory at the Euros in 2022. Nuala caughtesses to victory at the Euros in 2022. Nuala caught up with Leah at the Arsenal training ground. I have some good news for you. I can reveal that you are number one on the Women's Hour Power List 2023,

celebrating the most remarkable women in sport. So congratulations. Thanks very much. Thank you. I'm not sure I'm deserving. So congratulations. Thanks very much. Thank you. I'm not sure I'm deserving of that, but thanks very much. Well, I think our listeners, so many of them put you forward. They really do believe that you are. How does it feel?

It's lovely. I think it's always nice. I'm just trying to do my job and be as good of a person at the same time. So if people recognize that as this, then that's really nice to be thought of that way I think. The Women's Hour Power List it's full of outstanding women it can be boardroom executives in sport in the UK or grassroots coaches or indeed players like you and we celebrate all their achievements what is the benefit do you think of highlighting women in this way? I think that as women we've been

living in the shadows maybe where we know that we have the ability to step up so I think when we do recognize women like this when there is recognition I think it's it's great because it shows that next person you know if you can't see it you can't be it it's something that I really love as a say and so yeah I think that whole concept of shine a light on those that are already doing it so that those below or you know aspiring to be in those positions can believe that there is a place for them in that world so to speak and now you're number one on the list how is it feeling because I know I just sprung it up yeah um my mum will be happy um yeah no it's it's really nice I'm yeah slightly slightly taken back by that

so yeah very appreciative well we're delighted uh that you are number one on the woman's hour power list now you mentioned your mum there and you did pay tribute to your mum recently on social media saying she's my mum but she's always been a mum to anyone that has ever needed one and I love her for that you mentioned she's going to be thrilled yeah yeah this latest accolade um but she sounds like a very special person uh what role would you say she has played in your success I think uh my mum I always say she she sees even what my heart tries to hide um and I think she just knows me in a way that, you know, woman to woman, mother to daughter. She's known when I've been vulnerable and she kind of knows how to support me off the back of that.

She's always taught me to be humble. She's always taught me to be inquisitive and sort of search for new information all the time. So I think that's maybe one of my greatest strengths, sort of trying to be a sponge and taking as much as I can to just continue to try and be better so I think that's I owe that to her for sure and you talk about what your heart tries to hide what's that I think you know sometimes in the nature of what I do and how competitive stressful um it can be sometimes and you know you're under constant review uh and to manage those emotions within yourself whilst also trying to live life. I have a life outside of sport as well. And I think when I go back into that world, she can just sometimes see if I am struggling or things that we maybe wouldn't vocalise that easily. And even if we don't talk about it, I think she knows how to pull me out of those

times when I'm just a little bit in my own head. Shall we go back to perhaps maybe a kind of unreal moment? I don't know. You tell me. Because we all remember when the Lionesses won the Euros last summer. Making history with your team. And after you won the tournament, you and your teammates, including fellow powerlister Lotte Wubben Moy, called for the government then to create better access

to football for girls. They recently set out the new standards for equal access to sports, making it clear boys and girls should be offered the same sports during PE and also extracurricular time

in schools. Were you always confident that would happen? Yeah, I think it's an... You can't argue with the fact that we all believe it's in the best interest of young people to be active. I think we maybe needed that little bit of, not proof, but 90,000 people turned up to Wembley and the success of the summer.

I'm like, I think we're here to stay now and I think this is a genuine interest of people and how can we make it... Yeah, how think we're here to stay now. And I think this is a genuine interest of people. And how can we make it? Yeah, how can we just, how can we make this the new norm, basically? And I think that was always in our favor, so to speak, when we were advocating for that change, yeah. So you really had to win the Euros to try and get that. I think it was a good thing to have in the locker. But I think, yeah, just an opportunity to show you know

the home euros in itself so that uh will take place but we don't know how effective those measures will be yeah to you and latte will be you know looking at it really closely along with so many others but what would you like to see happen those next steps i think the equal access is really important that's an easy change you know, you've obviously got a term and a half or whatever left of the year. I think then when people are planning for next in the summer and for next year's curriculum, I think it should be equal. That should be the first thing I think that we change. And then I think the perception and then, you know, we have a responsibility to then push those girls to try new things. And I always say if a girl chooses not to play football,

then it's good she's had a choice in the first place. I'll take that any day instead of somebody choosing for her. But yeah, I hope, you know, hopefully we'll reach out to the schools and really, you know, explain the benefits to them as well for anybody that's maybe not so much of a believer as we are. But yeah i don't think it'll be the hardest thing in the world to to implement hopefully but we won't see the real change what 5 10 15 years maybe how does it feel for and you can tell me if this is the way you have experienced it but for your voice to be taken ever so much more seriously after the Euros? Yeah I think like I say we've lived in the shadows for a long time as female footballers I've watched

people before me have and I'd say you know a lot more knowledge and a lot more experience and maybe could have if they were in my position now what impact could they have had on the world so I think as a team we owe it to those women. The circumstances have changed and the position we're in now is a platform that people are listening to us speak from. So I don't want to look back. I just don't want to waste the opportunity that we have now. According to BBC analysis from last year, when comparing average player pay between the Premier League and the Women's Super League, top tiers of men and women's football. It's difficult to make exact comparisons,

but their findings suggest that on average, men are earning 100 times what the women do. In your view, the steps, what are they that need to be taken to narrow that, if not equalise? Fans' interest in the game. That's why we play football. It's a service. It's a service to the fans, to the clubs. We need to keep growing our fan base. We need people to turn up consistently.

We can week out for these games. These numbers are getting bigger, but they need to be consistent. And I think that's the quickest way to close the gap. Is it going to happen? I hope so. I hope so. I'm not sure I'll see that gap closed

in my playing time, but yeah, hopefully. Are there enough male allies to get you to the next level? I hope so. Ian Wright is obviously a major one for us. And when he speaks, he speaks from the heart, I believe.

The only thing I'm ever concerned of is that as a growing sport, we're used as a stepping stone into men's. I think it needs to be a real, if people are going to get involved, they need to be invested and they need to have our best interests at heart. But I think that we do have good male allies. And I think especially the relationship at England, Gareth Southgate, Serena, you know, the respect between them.

I think that's what we're asking for, a level of respect. And then if people have something to give, I think they should, as we all should, and all try to be allies of anyone that needs us. Let's talk about success. 2023 is shaping up to be another really exciting year for women's sport, women's football in particular. The World Cup has been held in New Zealand and Australia this summer.

We're already working out what time do we need to be up at um you won the euros how do you feel particularly with leadership of what you're talking about there the amount of pressure is it more is it less than previous to the euros i think definitely more in terms of we're a team to beat uh you win a tournament you're the one that everybody's coming after. So that makes sense. But in terms of playing at home Euros and the longer that goes on and the longer you think how much impact we could have, look at what's happened post-Euros. We knew that that could be the case.

So in terms of that pressure, I think there's a lot less. We're on the other side of the world in our own little bubble. And especially for all of us as players, all we've ever done is gone out and tried to enjoy it as much as possible. That definitely won't change the joy after the matches uh whether it was that one in the euros or you know of course money since then as well it's just got this feverish following i think does it ever get old

no absolutely not absolutely not um and i think i'm that's i'm that's why i love playing for england that's why i love being in that in, because it's, yeah, it's happy. It's happiness. Hopefully your place as number one on the Women's Hour Power List will be an honour that you will enjoy and never forget. And congratulations again. Thank you so much. Good stuff, isn't it?

Leah Williamson there, England football captain who tops the Women's Hour Power List. And if you missed that special programme broadcast from the Radio Theatre, you can catch up with it on BBC Sounds. Right now, it's under the 28th of March. Now, let's talk about something that affects us all. Well, I hope it does anyway. Money and love. Specifically,

what you should be thinking about as a woman when you're starting out in a relationship or taking some of life's big decisions, such as maybe moving in together, sharing an account, getting married, having kids, a new job. What about later if you're getting divorced or planning to retire? Well, I'm delighted to say that I was joined in the studio by two women who are experts in the field. Myra Strober, Professor Emerita at Stanford in America. She was an early feminist economist and has written widely about issues, particularly to women in their working life. And Abby Davidson is one of her former pupils

who is now a social innovation expert. Together, they've written a book called Money and Love, an intelligent roadmap for life's big decisions. a social innovation expert. Together, they've written a book called Money and Love, an Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Big Decisions. And I started by asking Myra about the different perspectives they both bring because of their age and experience. I taught a course at Stanford for almost 50 years. First, it was called Women and Work, and then changed the name to work and family when more men started taking the class. And Abby was one of the students in that class in 2008. Abby, as well as the man she eventually married.

And so for years I had them come back and talk to the class because they were having the real-life experiences now of raising two kids and having two demanding careers. And then when I retired in 2018, I told Abby that I wanted to write a book about the course. And we had lunch a couple of years later, and she said to me, how's the book going? And I said, oh, I haven't written a word. And she said, you, how's the book going? And I said, oh, I haven't written a word. And she said, you need an accountability partner. And I looked at her and I said, no, I need a co-author.

Brilliant. And so that's when we started working together. Let's talk about the book, because the key point I've picked up from reading it is that you talk about money and you talk about love and the two are intertwined. And that's very important for people to understand at the off. They are. And the conventional wisdom is that we should separate the two topics, we should think about relationship decisions with our hearts, we should think about financial decisions with our heads, and never let one get in the way of the other. And that's just very flawed, because all of life's biggest decisions that you just mentioned, involve both

money and love. And if you ignore one, you're missing a huge part of the picture and you're more likely to make a decision that you regret. You start by coming up with something called the five Cs. It's very useful. It's very handy for people who have been impulsive. They stand for clarify, communicate, choices, check-in and consequences. Explain what that's all about.

So the research says that people make decisions that are really important decisions too quickly. They feel uncomfortable having to make the decision, and they would like to get the decision off their plate as soon as possible. And so really what the five C's does is give you a framework for slowing down this decision-making process. So clarify, that's the first. Figure out what it is you really want. Figure out what it is you really want, not what your parents want, not what your friends want,

not what your children want, but what you really want. And that's often a hard job. The next is communicate that to your partner or whoever else is involved in this decision. And we see clarify and communicate as a kind of dance. First you clarify, then you communicate. Then your partner clarifies and communicate. Then you dance some more.

And so this slows down the decision-making process. And then you're into the choices part, which is all about not getting into the tunnel vision that we sometimes get when we see the two extremes, right? Do I either marry this person or break up with them? Do I go for the promotion or do I quit my job? The truth is there are so many places in between. And when you are able to be creative and generate more options, that's more when you're likely to get to an option that is, well, better suited to you. And that's where the check-in point comes in, which is check in with friends, family, and trusted resources that can help you get the perspective that they've had, having gone through

the decision, generate more choices, and then start to think about the consequences, the last C, not just the short-term consequences, which is what we're so wired to see as humans, but the medium and long term consequences as well. I was wondering when I was dipping in and out of this about how this, because you're both American, how this translates to other cultures, particularly here in the UK, because we find it so awkward to talk about money. Well, I had students from all over the world in my classes. And students from the UK were more like American students than, let's say, students from Pakistan or India or South America. And yet, despite all the differences, they all had the same decisions that needed to be made. And so it might have been harder for Brits to take the plunge and have uncomfortable

conversations before you're ready. But it wasn't exactly easy for Americans either. So I would say there's not that much difference. It's what couples argue about the most. But interestingly, it's the thing that they feel most uncomfortable talking about. Why is that? Why do we find it so difficult to talk about money? Well, we don't have models for how to do it, right? We see movies, we see all of these examples before us of the romanticized version of relationships. And you're planning a wedding, you're doing all of the wonderful parts, right? You're not sitting down on a first date and revealing your educational debt to each other. There's no spreadsheet involved when he's sweeping you or she's sweeping you off your feet. Right. But one of the reasons Myra's class was so powerful for me is that I took it with my

boyfriend at the time. We had been dating for less than a year, but we were about to graduate. We had to make decisions about whether we were going to look for jobs in the same city, if we're going to move in together, if we ended up in the same city. And we were forced to have the uncomfortable conversations with Myra's prompting. Abby, you're a real life case study. I really am. So you were living it and breathing it. Absolutely. So let's talk about you personally then.

What came up in the lectures and how did that influence your decision making? Well, one of the statistics that Myra shared in her class, because as a labor economist, there were a lot of statistics and data in the class, was that couples who live together before getting married have higher divorce rates. And that is very counterintuitive. It was not a situation we wanted to end up in. And so we did our final paper for the class all about why that is and how you can avoid it. And it turns out you can avoid that fate with one word, which is intentionality. If you go into your cohabitation with an intentional approach, discussing, for

example, will you each contribute to the rent in a similar way? What if somebody earns more? Would they pay more? My husband, my boyfriend at the time, was going into the world of finance. I was going to work for an NGO after graduation. We were making wildly different salaries. So one of the things we discussed is how would we combine our finances in a way that felt equitable to both of us, in a way that felt different from when we were not living together, but also different from when we got engaged and when we got married. And so we wrote our final paper as our blueprint

for the plan that we would follow for the next, it's now been 15 years since I took the course. No wonder she went to the top of the class and came back to write this book with you. We've talked about the division of labor within the home a lot on Women's Hour, particularly during lockdown, as I'm sure you're aware, because actually the roles reverted. And it tended to be women who were doing the bulk of the housework as well as holding down their own jobs. What's your thought about that? Well, you know, under tense situations, people revert to what they saw as children. And most of us saw our mothers doing a lot more

housework than our fathers, a lot more. And although that has changed now, and I'm hoping that since the pandemic is over, it will go back a bit to the way it was before. People did tend to rely on old patterns. We've had lots of people get in touch about this subject. Someone anonymous has written in to say, one of the most difficult decisions I had was negotiating with my partner that he should pay into my pension at the same total amount as his, his contributions plus his employer's too, while I was on maternity leave. I'm a freelancer, so I'm responsible for my own pension payments and didn't get maternity pay. I didn't see why his contributions should remain the same

while mine would go to zero for 12 months. He was shocked but understanding, and that was the agreement we had while I was working. I find that really interesting because it would have taken a lot to bring that up with your partner to even have that conversation. I love that example. And I love that, A, she recognized that this was the situation. B, was transparent with her partner about, well, my being on maternity leave is providing value to the family. Why should I be financially penalized while you get to contribute to your pension the whole time

while I'm caring for our child? And that they had the conversation about it, even though it didn't occur to him, he agreed. So this is actually a wonderful example of what we talk about in the book. How do you get over cultural conditioning, though? How do you get over that idea for both men and women approaching men who may be earning more to say, you know what, is this fair? Well, ideally, you're having these uncomfortable conversations before you've committed to spend the rest of your life with this person. seen colleagues of mine who were long married change the relationship that they've had just by bringing up the topic and saying, we need to take a nice long walk somewhere. I have something I want to talk to you about that we have never talked about before. That kind of gets their interest. And then off you go. And don't think about this as a one-time conversation. This is a long dance. And you

need to keep listening to your partner's reactions and keep being gentle with your partner if you want to change what's been happening for a long period of time. So yeah, take it easy, but be persistent. And one of the reasons we wrote the book is to not have this be the best kept secret of only the students who are fortunate enough to take Myra's class. We think that so many more people could benefit from this approach and this information. And so you could even say, I heard these authors on Women's Hour this morning, and I'd love to bring this up. This is something we think anyone can start at any time. And we love it when you say we heard these amazing authors on Women's Hour.

Talking of amazing authors, on Friday's programme, I was joined by the much acclaimed performance poet and writer Selina Godden, whose new book has an intriguing title. Pessimism is for Lightweights. It's a collection of 30 poems written over the last five years celebrating courage and resistance, including poems responding to the Women's March, the stigma around periods and everyday sexism. Well, I started by asking Selena where the title of her book comes from. Pessimism is for Lightweights was first coined, the phrase first coined by John Higgs. And John Higgs is a lovely friend of mine, amazing author. And I was at one of his talks or one of his books for the Cosmic Trigger play. And I just loved it. I just really liked that title.

He approached me and asked me to write a poem for him for his Watling Street book. And I said, only if I can call the poem Pessimism is for Lightways. So it started as a commission, as a poem for his Watling Street podcast, for the podcast that went with his book. So the road that the poem's referring to is Watling Street, which is a very ancient road, which goes all the way up the UK. There's a bit, I know I probably shouldn't read what John Higgs has to say at the beginning, but I love this bit. He says, to give up requires the knowledge I know I probably shouldn't read what John Higgs has to say at the beginning, but I love this bit. He says, to give up requires the knowledge that the darkness probably won't affect you in your daily life. Basically, to give up then is the privilege of abandoning others to their fate.

Yeah, he's got, I mean, I really love John's writing, but this phrase just really stuck with me. How can optimism enact change? How can optimism enact change? I mean, there's so many ways to answer that. And we don't have, I mean, I could really talk And so to be optimistic and to have enthusiasm and to have fire and passion is going to get you a lot further than giving up and being pessimistic. And to have that hope and to have that drive and to have it mistaken for weakness, you know, and to have all that energy has really been something that I've had to really dig deep and use to keep going and to survive. I think optimism is a survival.

I think it's really important. I mean, I've often coined the phrase, hope is a group project. And this idea that if we're all hoping and we're all dreaming, we're going to get a lot further. If we're not visualising a better and more hopeful outcome, if we're not imagining that, and you know, it is idealistic. I take it.

I am idealistic. I've always been idealistic, but I don't think things are ideal. So I want to be idealistic. Yeah. You don't have to apologise for that. Yeah. It's pragmatic, pragmatic optimism.

I would love to hear you read something. You would? Yes, please. Shall we go for Cour is a muscle okay this is a very uh very rallying kind of robust poem this is courage is a muscle courage is the muscle we use when we speak if we're being talked over and told we're too weak and when we get weary and when gets tough, it's our united courage says enough is enough. Courage is the muscle we work night and day to get equal rights, to get equal pay. Our blood is taxed. Our blood is shame. Our courage unites us, for we all bleed the same.

Courage is the muscle we flex when we must. Courage is the muscle for truth and for trust. Courage is the muscle we use when we speak, if we're being walked over, talked over and told we're too weak. And when we get weary, we march side by side. A thousand years we're still marching with courage and with pride oh yes when did you write that um when did i write that i must have written it around the time when there i think it was the first woman's march and i remember specifically a fantastic um gathering in trafalgar square and reading that to thousands of thousands of people. And it was just such a buzz and such a feeling of so much hope.

It was an incredible moment. And it's the way you deliver it as well. You know, you are the words and the rallying cry that comes from within you. You've been described as a feminist poet. How can poetry be a form of protest? I think poetry, I think my poetry has always been a form of protest. Sometimes we write poems because they're things we wish we could say. Sometimes we write poetry in afterthought of things we wished we had said in arguments or something. I think poetry and art and beauty and the way that we use the creativity to speak and

say what we're seeing and feeling and observing and narrating the times, it's very much the role of the writer and of the artist to narrate the times. I've often said that there's a lovely place where poets are, which is, you know, with the dreams, but also somewhere in between journalism and being a comedian, because you can use the humour and you can use the facts and the observation of what's happening, but you can also use a lot of heart and emotion and really get to the subject of things.

And I think that's why I love it. I want to read something out that you've said in an interview last year. I think this was a lovely thing that you said about Amanda Gorman. Amanda Gorman in America standing there in yellow. Now there was a fantastic moment. It was incredibly powerful. I wonder if in England we could ever have a moment like that where instead of putting an actor there reading something from an old dead white poet,

we could actually have one of a young hopeful bright spark speaking since it's their future yes yes wasn't that that was such a powerful moment i think she's such an incredible poet in fact i think there are so the next generation of uh poets are just so exciting i have such amazing conversations with 20 year olds it gives me so much yeah they have a fearlessness about them don't they yeah they really do and they have a really difficult a difficult place I've been thinking about this imagine if you're at a wedding and you're stuck between two aunties and there's two kinds of aunties that you've got the auntie that's like I had it tough so you should have it tough and I was fine so you should be fine then you have the other auntie that says I had it tough but I want it to

be easier for you yeah I want it to be easier for you. I want it to be better for you. And I like to try and be that kind of auntie, that kind of big sister. You're definitely that kind of big sister. I'm not going to put you in the auntie bracket yet. Thanks. Another thing you write about a lot is identity and racism.

And there's the poem No Holds Barred. It's about an experience that happened to you outside a pub. But your reaction to the racist incident. We're talking about optimism here, but there are some times where life just really punches you in the gut. It's very hard to find hope. But somehow you did something so magnanimous and the reaction was huge.

Tell me about the poem. That poem was written of a true experience. I was outside a pub and someone was telling me to get back on my boat and it was just and everyone was saying ignore her, ignore her but I couldn't and I don't know I think it must have been the moon. It was a full moon. Yeah. But I stood up and just went and hugged her and it just felt like I couldn't hear her anger. I could just hear that she was in pain and that she needed a hug. So I went and hugged her and it luckily worked. And we ended up just both having a cry under the full moon outside this pub. And I mean, I wouldn't suggest that we all

go hugging people, you know, when they're being horrible to us, but maybe sometimes it's here the pain. We've got to talk about your debut novel that came out two years ago, Mrs. Death, Mrs. Death. Yeah, in lockdown. You personify death as a woman in it. If you haven't read it, it's brilliant. Why? Why did you choose to make death a woman? The novel's Mrs Death, Mrs Death. And in it, I imagine death as a black woman, as a powerful black woman.

I was walking down Brick Lane and it was Christmas time and I was quite low and quite blue and then, and quite, you know, sometimes I don't really like Christmas, OK? So I'm walking down. Tough time of year for a lot of people. And then I hear this voice and the voice says, I know a lot of dead people now. I know a lot of dead people now.

And from there, this voice, it was a new narrator, a new story. And I remember writing and walking all through Whitechapel, recording her into my phone. And that's where the character first came to me. Yeah, I think maybe based on one of my elders, I have this amazing great-great-grandmother in Jamaica who smoked a clay pipe and was a medicine woman and a healer and I like to think maybe there's some of her in there some old Jamaican medicine woman healer woman and

to think of death like that I found it comforting and also exciting to write so that's where that sprang from. It's so wonderful because you really make make like all your work makes you stop and think I'm just gonna read a quote from the book if I can, Selina. For surely only she who bears it, she who gave you life, can be she who has the power to take it away. The one is she, for there is no human more invisible, more readily talked over, ignored, betrayed, and easy to walk past than a woman, than a poor old black woman,

a homeless black beggar woman with knotty, natty hair, broken back, walking ever so slow, slow, slow. I love the way you read that. I just, you're always like, yeah. Whilst I was reading it, I was like, I can't believe I'm reading her words out to her on the radio. I did

have a moment within that moment. And it's been optioned. Is it going to happen? Is it being turned into a TV series? Yes, it's very exciting. It's been optioned. Is it going to happen? Is it being turned into a TV series? Yes, it's very exciting. It's been optioned by Idris Elba and his production company, Green Door Pictures. So look out for that. I'm very excited to see who will play Mrs Death

and who will play Wolf and how that book will look. I'm very excited, but I'm trying not to think about it too much because then that's very shiny and distracting. The phenomenal Selina Godden there. That's it from me. I'm going to go and disappear into Selina's book once again. Remember to join Nuala for Woman's Hour on Monday, where she'll be talking to author Erica Berry about her book,

Wolfish, about fear and wolves. Intrigued? Join her on Monday. Hello, I'm Lucy Worsley, and I want to tell you about Lady Killers from BBC Radio 4. It's a programme that mixes true crime with history, but with a twist. With our all-female team of experts, I am re-examining the crimes committed by murderesses in the past through the eyes of 21st century feminists. What can we learn from these women? And would it be any different today? Lady Killers.

Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.