Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Leah Williamson, Women and Partition, Afghan women's radio

Episode Date: August 13, 2022

Having led the England women’s team to Euro 2022 victory, the Lionesses' captain, Leah Williamson, reflects on the Euro 2022 victory and answers young listeners' questions.The Armed Forces are not reaching their targets in terms of recruiting women. The MOD is hoping to increase the proportion of women in the armed forces to 30% by 2030 but they have not met the target set for 2020. We discuss with Lauren Godier-McBard and Ria Jackson.It's the end of an era - the actor playing Peggy in The Archers is hanging up her mic at the age of 103. June Spencer has played the matriarch since 1951. Her last appearance was on Sunday's omnibus edition. Felicity Finch who plays Ruth Archer, shares how the rest of the cast has reacted to the news.It’s been described as one of the most seismic events of the 20th century, but how did the Partition of India affect women? The split led to violence, disruption and death with women facing kidnapping, rape and forced suicide. It was a time of huge destruction and disruption but it was also a time of courage, compassion and survival of the women who overcame trauma to somehow rebuild their lives. We hear from Shruti Kapila, Professor of Indian History at Cambridge University and Ritu Menon, feminist publisher and writer, and author of Borders & Boundaries: Women in India’s Partition.BBC Afghan have a new radio programme called 'Women' which focuses on women and girls, especially those in rural areas. It's presented by Shazia Haya in Pashto, and Aalia Farzan in Dari who fled their home country last August when the Taliban retook control. Faranak Amidi is the presenter of World Service's The Fifth Floor and caught up with Shazia and Aalia.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Lisa Jenkinson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, where we bring you the must-hear interviews from the week just gone, and what a week it's been. On today's programme, Leah Williamson, Captain of England Women, shares her experience of leading the Lionesses to the stunning Euro 22 victory. Women and partition. We commemorate the 75th anniversary of the partition of India with Professor Shruti Kapila and feminist publisher Ritu Menon. And we pay tribute to June Spencer,

who's retiring from her role as Peggy from The Archers at 103 years old. What have you been doing with your lives? But first, if you were listening to Thursday's programme, you will have heard that we had a new captain for the day, Leah Williamson, captain of England Women, who did an exclusive takeover for Woman's Hour. Leah and the Lionesses are European champions, yes they are, bringing home the first senior major trophy for England since 1966. She's 25 and was named captain just a few months ago. She's been a popular face amongst women's football fans

for years as an Arsenal defender, but now she's a household name and Leah is using her success to boost the grassroots, especially getting more girls playing football at school. Jess Crichton caught up with Leah to reflect on her stunning victory and began by asking her what was going through her mind when the final whistle blew. I'd gone a bit crazy in my head and I actually thought that extra time finished at 115 minutes so I've been screaming at her for about five minutes to blow the whistle um so when it finally went yes massive relief to be honest um I broke down in tears because obviously you talk about things but that's been my dream since I was a little girl um and yeah to finally say that we've we've done it is

pretty special I think the whole team were in tears not just the team the whole stadium I was in that stadium the the energy was electric we really could feel everything that you guys were feeling on the pitch everyone was jumping around at the full-time whistle but then I saw you go over to one of the opposition players who was obviously crying her eyes out one of the German players yeah and you you you kind of sat with her for for a while and you seemed like you were to one of the opposition players who was obviously crying her eyes out, one of the German players. Yeah. And you kind of sat with her for a while and you seemed like you were consoling her. What did you say?

Yeah, I think the player in Oberdorf, she had a fantastic tournament. She's young. And I think a lot of our girls, you know, I was really proud of the team because a lot of us went over to speak to them. Obviously, you have an initial moment of celebration, but ultimately we went out for a day of our girls you know I was really proud of the team because a lot of us went over to speak to them obviously you have an initial moment of celebration but ultimately we went out for a day of football that's changed the game and to be on the losing side of that would we would know how

how hard that would how hard that would be so yeah I think just there's nothing you can say in that moment that will make it any better but I think in that yeah in the times like those you want to remember that you want them to remember their worth and that it's not the be all and end all in that moment. Although for us to win, it's easy to say that. For me, that felt like a moment that really typified your leadership because you were offered the captaincy very early in your England career. But that just showed the kind of leader that you were how did you decide

about how you were going to captain this team what style of captaincy you were going to do I think the main the main thing that anybody said to me was you've been chosen for a reason and it was something that I struggled a little bit with just because I've been enjoying my role as just being one of the girls and being in the mix of it all. And naturally, it's a lot of responsibility and extra responsibility, I suppose, on top of just being a player. But I just didn't want to change. And I made that clear. And, you know, if that's the one thing that I ask people to give me feedback on. If you think something or, you know, I'm not somebody that pretends to know all the answers.

I like to have information. I like to be knowledgeable about things, but I don't know everything. And I was willing to be vulnerable with the girls. And I think that is maybe a good thing because it levels it out. But also being a leader from within, it's not, there's a time and a place for everybody to say something. And I think if you know your strengths and you know what you can bring to a team, especially in a team environment, it's really important that you do step up in those moments, but to force them is the worst thing that you can do

because people see straight through it. And we're about to go on a tournament, a journey in a tournament. We were away for ultimately nine weeks. You can't pretend to be anybody that you're not and I didn't want to do that so for me I sort of backed the fact that I was one of the girls and I was um I felt part of the group and just tried to lead from within that way and be as authentic as possible that shows a great level of maturity. Now you were playing under a manager Serena Veegman who was in the team or became part of the team for less than a year but achieved so much. What do you feel you learned from her during the course of the tournament about leadership,

about being a captain? I think she's something that I admire about people is when they're they're comfortable with themselves. They've obviously got to a point where they understand themselves. They know what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are. And I think that's played a major role in Herbie. And she's come in and she's just sort of... English football culture is so strong. And she's come from a different culture, a different country,

and just been as true to herself as she could have been. So her culture is remarkably different. She's Dutch, isn't she? So is that her culture remarkably different to English culture? I think so. I mean, English football culture, I don't think anything really compares to how crazy we all get about it and that kind of side of things.

Even our media is different, you know, just to other nations. And I think historically people have had a problem with England or they like to dislike England so for her to come in and I think that Dutch style is very direct is very straight to the point very respectful and I think that's that's what people do respect about is that she's human first puts you as a human first but ultimately she's here to do a job and because she does it in that way even if you don't if you if you disagree with something that she says or a decision that she makes you can never question her intent or like I say you

can never sort of lose respect for her in the way that she does it I don't think which is a major strength in a team environment because as I said people see through you if you're if you're not yourself or if you're chopping and changing so yeah so you've tried to be as authentic as possible yeah basically yeah basically and I think that has come across throughout this tournament and the leadership that you've shown has not just impacted your teammates but also fans as well because ahead of ahead of you coming on today we did ask some listeners to send in some questions from future Lionesses. So let's listen to two of them now. My name is Nelly. I'm seven years old.

I love football, but I play with boys. It was a great experience to see girls play football. Keep going, do your best and have fun. How old were you when you started to play football and when did you join a girls' team? Hi, Leah. My name is Evelyn. I'm nine years old and I play for Carver United under 10 girls. I'd really like to know who or what inspired you to start playing football.

They're lovely, you see. They're very cute. There's a question for you direct from some of our listeners. So Nelly asked there, how old were you when you started playing football? And when did you first join a girls team? Yeah, so I was six when I started to play outside of the playground, I think.

And then I actually joined a girls team the year after. So I was seven. I was lucky. I got scouted and sort of moved into a centre of excellence at the time. So, yeah, I was really lucky in my journey in terms of being in a safe environment and playing with girls growing up. But I don't think it's a bad thing to be playing in a boys team either. I don't think that affects your journey.

And so many of the girls, the Lion lionesses current squad grew up playing with boys yeah it's the same for me as well yeah I think some girls naturally if you want to get into it and you feel uncomfortable in those environments then absolutely find a girls team and I'm that's what we want we want more girls teams we want it to be something that everybody can access but playing in a boys team I think is a great option too I don't think you lose anything by doing that and what inspired you to first start playing because I know you come from a football family your brother plays doesn't your dad is a football fan a Spurs fan when you are out and out Arsenal I don't even know how that would work but what first inspired you to start playing yeah I come from a football household

split down the middle mum's Arsenal Arsenal, dad's Spurs. Wow. Yeah, so... North London derby must be fun. Yeah, I don't think we ever watched it in the same room. But yeah, so it was, you know, I was always going to grow up loving football if I wanted to be close to my family, I think.

And then, yeah, I don't know. Mum just says one day, apparently I went home and said, I'm going to play football. And she said, you sure? And I said, yeah, go on, we'll give it a go. And then that was it. I just never looked back. I think I've just always known that that's what I loved and sort of fitted the nature of who I am. Yeah. And it's great that you had that support from your family and from your parents in particular. Now, on our programme Monday before last, we spoke to a former Lioness you might have heard of, Kelly Smith.

And we asked her about a photo of you and her when you were just a young girl coming out with Arsenal as a ball girl. This is what Kelly has had to say about you. She's only a young captain, but her play, she plays way, way beyond her years. She's very calm, relaxed, leads by example. But Leah's just very humble. She comes from a really friendly family background, good nurturing. She's very intelligent in the way she comes across and portrays our game. So full credit goes to her and her family and the way she's led this Lionesses to this major trophy.

How does it feel to hear that, Leah, from a player whose poster you used to have on your wall as a child? She was my hero. She still is my hero. No, it's lovely. It's nice to... Football terms, obviously, it's great if people have opinions. Football's a game of opinions. So you win some, you lose some. Obviously, it means a lot to me that Kelly... I think there was a slight compliment in there,

so I'll take it. But to me, and I think maybe this is what she's referring to, my mum has always sort of said to me that she would be as proud of me if I was playing for England or if I was playing, you know, just for a local team at the weekend. That wouldn't matter to her. The thing that makes her proud is if people say,

Leah's, you Leah's got good manners or she can communicate with people. She makes people feel good about themselves. And I think that's what makes me proud when I listen to that because it's not something that you can try and be. Like I said, you can't force those things. It's just how people perceive you. And yeah, that's more important to me that she thinks i'm a good

person i think and kelly smith isn't the only one singing your praises you've become a household name leah haven't you what is it like going to the shops now yeah everybody double takes um most of the time i say yeah that's not me um but yeah it's been crazy i'm but i'm glad you know it's it's been a while all those people you know kelly should have been a household name. She probably was, but she was probably the only ones. There's been so many years of women's footballers that deserve the platform we have. So I take it in my stride and hopefully, yeah, for the better of the game. And we've spoken about sportswomen using their platform and you and the Lionesses have done exactly that. There were so many times during interviews where you would say, we've changed society.

You said it throughout the tournament. What is it about this team that's made an impact, do you think? I think another thing that Serena brought in was she wanted us to connect with the fans and she wanted us to be relaxed about that. You can have a good time whilst you're doing your job and that kind of vulnerability vulnerability i suppose to people shows that we're human uh makes us a little bit more takes us down off a pedestal and was that kind of discouraged before under previous managers

i don't think it was discouraged at all i just think the like i said this english mentality we're you know when we go to work we're we're at work and we have to be hard-faced and we have to be you know stiff up a lip yeah you know and it's just how we are it's, we're at work and we have to be hard faced and we have to be, you know. Stiff up a lip. Yeah, you know, and it's just how we are. It's how we've sort of grown up to be. And I think that it's not a sign of weakness to show vulnerability. And by vulnerability, I mean, you know, allowing people to see you as a human being.

So I think we know that sport changes and sport has the power to change things and for women to be on that platform showing that they can sort of connect with people in that way and bring others up with them I think is the most important thing that we could have done one of the biggest areas that people talk about when it comes to change within the women's game is is the finances the money yeah now when playing for England the men's and the women's teams are paid the same but for club football earnings are nowhere near equal do you think that needs to change I think that as the game grows naturally those things should change you know we're gone are the days where my teammates had two jobs when I first started playing with the senior team people would leave their job in the day to come and train at night. You can't expect a level of quality.

You look back on the two finals, the last time the Lionesses were in a final against Germany, and most of those players would have been part-time or working all hours of the day to support their footballing career. So we're on this journey now where we have a professional game the finances need to reflect that to allow people to if we want to be good if we want to produce quality on the world stage you have to have a level of professionalism in your life that is only sustainable through better finances than we've previously seen do I think it should be the same as the men's nobody's

asking for that right now it's a different product they're like you know ticket sales the amount of people that go to watch week in week out it's a completely different product and in terms of stages but are we surprised no we were banned for 50 years so we're playing catch up which is fine we are where we are but we don't settle because we know where it goes, I think. Now, I just want to change subjects slightly here, Leah, because I want to talk about music is one of your passions. Now, you've got some DJ decks at home and you might already know this, but Leah is the England women's dressing room DJ and she takes it very, very seriously. What kind of tracks are you playing Leo in the dressing room this is where I think unless you've been inside a football changing room you don't understand sometimes that wild cards get thrown in but they're the best ones so like

you know over the course of the summer we had a bit of ABBA is that a wild card that's a classic you know what I'm saying it's not it's new release, is it? Or it's not modern. But I think songs like that just get everybody going. Yeah, a bit of ABBA. We had, it was a nice moment before the final, we had In A Smile by Texas, which if anybody's seen Bender Like Beckham, is sort of from that.

So yeah, I think it was like a bit of a chill, think about where you come from. Imagine you're a little girl watching B Lightbeck and thinking about this day. So yeah, songs like that bring people together. That was Leah Williamson. And you can listen back to her Takeover programme on BBC Sounds. And we had a huge response from you to Leah's interview. Some texting to say,

It's not just young girls who've been inspired. I'm 38 and have now signed up for a veterans women football team in Kent, all due to the Lionesses' success. Thank you, Leah and the team. Maddy tweeted in to say, And Lorraine said, listening to Leah and the legends who've made women's football come alive again, Leah is an inspiration for us all. Now, the armed forces are not reaching their targets in terms of recruiting women. The MOD is hoping to increase the proportion of women in the armed forces to 30% by 2030, but they've not yet met the target set for 2020, which is 15%. One of the barriers to change is thought to be visibility.

New research by the Anglia Ruskin University has found the UK public knows little or nothing about female veterans. Lauren Goodyear-McBard led the research, which included a poll of more than 2,000 people aged 16 and over across the UK. And Ria Jackson is an RAF veteran and founder of the blog The V Word, which discusses life as a female veteran. Jessica Crichton spoke to them earlier this week and asked Lauren what she found in the research. What we found was actually really interesting.

So the majority of respondents, around 70%, actually supported women's participation in combat roles, which, of course, they've only been able to take up since 2018. However, this dropped down to about 56% when they were asked if they would actually support a female friend or relative in those types of roles, so someone close to them. Now, when we looked at perceptions of women after service, this was generally quite positive with sort of 70, 80% of respondents reporting positive perceptions, such as that they admired women

veterans, viewed them as heroes. However, the big one for us that you've already alluded to is that 82% of respondents actually reported knowing very little to nothing about female veterans and actually knowing very little or nothing about female veterans appeared to be related to having more of those negative perceptions of how women fare after service and attitudes towards them and actually being more likely to oppose women's participation in the military. So these results suggest a lack of visibility of women who've served in general, but also that potentially increasing this visibility and public knowledge and understanding might

actually impact positively on perceptions and attitudes towards women's military participation. Okay, so how do you feel like the two link together then? How does this lack of public awareness impact the possible recruitment failings? So we can only speculate about this at this point based on the data that we have. But one of the things that our surveys also found is that those in the kind of lower age ranges, so sort of 16 to 34, which is the cohort that would traditionally be recruited from by the military, are more likely to actually hold some of these negative perceptions of women who served in the military. So, for example, they're more likely to believe that women who've served have poorer mental and physical health, for example,

and more likely to believe that they've lost out more than they've benefited from an armed forces career. This age group are also more likely to get their information about female veterans and women who've served from social media. So they may be more susceptible to those kind of more extreme depictions of military service or women's experiences that are propagated by social media. And these kind of perceptions may impact on their willingness to consider an armed forces career. So we can't say for certain, but it's likely that prevailing public perceptions of suitability and impact of a military career for women will have an impact on recruitment.

OK, so public awareness is one aspect of this, but there have been quite a few reports in recent years around the culture within the armed forces of sexism, of bullying. What impact might those stories have as well? Yeah, I think, as I mentioned, if you're getting your information from things like social media or the media in general, who tend to depict those more extreme cases of things like sexual harassment and sexual violence, then your perception of what a military career is going to be for women is going to be potentially quite negative. So, and that's not to say that those experiences don't happen and that the military don't have a responsibility to address them. They absolutely do. And, you know, making the military environment safe and inclusive for women is likely to impact on retention and recruitment of women as well.

But I think there's a part to play here by both the military itself, but also media presentation and representation of women being quite negative. Whereas actually what we find in research is that women are, you know, very proud of their service and actually very keen to have that kind of representation of positive experiences as well. Yeah, Ria, let's bring you in here because you spent 12 years in the RAF. What was your experience? I loved being in the RAF. I look back at it very fondly.

I had really positive experiences. I got to travel the world, made some beautiful friends, got a lot of skills. They educated me. Things that maybe I wouldn't have necessarily had the opportunity to have without it. And how would you describe the culture within the Armed Forces or the RAF specifically as you were a part of that? I think as with any organisation there are room for improvement, it doesn't matter what organisation or industry you

go to there's always some level of improvement that's required for equality, inclusivity and diversity. And I think the military have got some work to do without a shadow of a doubt. But I do know that they have been making positive strides quite a lot of late to address those. What do you feel they have to improve on what was your experience so it was it's a very male orientated environment and you tend to conform to that male orientated environments that makes you quite androgynous which sometimes particularly when you're coming to leave as a veteran and that can be hard to integrate back into civilian life because you are quite an androgynous character so you're you you do come with quite male and and in in how you communicate how you work and how you address things so I think some of the culture

needs to in the military for me and it is heading that way needs to realize yes we are in what was once a male-orientated environment however we are still women I mean I know that they've recently brought out uniform that's more fitting for um military women and I know that they now issue sports bras but at the time when I was serving um that wasn't the case which meant we often had ill-fitting uniform um I personally didn't have a problem with this but I had colleagues that were having to strap themselves down in order to fit the body armor on and things like that which is very uncomfortable particularly in in hot countries um but these are things that we adapted to because one of the things that they teach us is to adapt and overcome however they're now addressing this now although I think it's been

a slow process but there are positive strides being made yeah you also have this blog, The V Word, which I've been reading. And I found it, yeah, I found it very interesting. And one of, in one of the blog posts, you say, we learn very quickly to suppress our emotions in a bid to avoid being branded tits and tears. God forbid, as women, we get emotional. Our femininity is quashed from the moment we arrive at basic training, immediately stripped of any feminine styling such as makeup, nail varnish, jewellery. Even our body shape is cloaked by the ill-fitting uniforms made for men. That sounds like a tough thing to deal with. It is. At the end of the day, when you join the military, you know at the moment that it's a male orientated um environment you know that so I expected some of that but I think as I've grown older and a bit wiser and also become a mum to a little girl I've come to realize what an impact that has on you as

an individual I mean you need to conform in the military because it's very much a team environment and it's a team ethos and that's what you need and to do that you do have to strip away some of your your individuality in order to meet the team requirements however as a female that is completely stripped when you get there now I know they are making changes with that but that is quite an impact on you because your hair is scraped back into a bun you can't have any piercings there's there's no I know they're making improvements. Girls are now able to wear plaits and ponytails, which they weren't able to before, but that wasn't whilst I served.

Now, you have alluded to the fact, Ria, that they are making changes. And we did contact the Ministry of Defence to tell them about this discussion. And a spokesperson has given us a statement. They say that women make an essential contribution to the success of our armed forces and we are taking bold steps to ensure full, thriving and varied career routes all the way to the highest ranks. This includes opening all roles to women, cracking down on inappropriate behaviour and rolling out wraparound childcare. We are seeing a long-term trend of more female recruits

and our target of 30% of entrants being women by 2030 will drive change forward, building on the great strides already taken to attract, retain and develop the best talent. Now, Ria, I know that one of the reasons you left was because you wanted to start a family. Tell us about that experience, but also the fact that the MOD have recently announced that there will be new wraparound care for parents.

So my reason, one of the reasons why, there was a number of reasons why I chose to leave. It was the right time for me at that time. I do think about wanting a family, but I experienced quite a few miscarriages prior to successfully birthing my daughter and I think that changes your mindset as well and I didn't want to go away for six months at a time and and leave my child at home by the same token I think in any organization whether it's the military or in in civilian street they expect you to work like you haven't like you haven't got children but mother like you haven't got a job and and I didn't want to have to make that that that hard choice I also didn't

want my child to be traveling all over which is my personal choice to do because I know that there's a lot of children out there that are military children and they're highly successful but I didn't want that for my child moving forward. And what more do you feel the military could do in terms of raising awareness of people like yourself, women that have done their best within the armed forces, have transitioned to civilian life and perhaps feel a bit forgotten about? I think the public profile needs to be risen,

which is one of the reasons why I did the V word because I'm not the only female veteran that's left. When somebody thinks of a female veteran, sorry, thinks of a veteran, they don't necessarily think of 39 year old Ria from Barnsley. They think of Sir Tom, who, you know, did a fantastic job and was an inspiration during Covid. Why is that? I just think that's public perception. I think that's what's been out there. Someone mentioned to me yesterday, actually someone from Women's Hour actually, who was speaking to, is that there's more visibility for military spouses than there actually is for female veterans. Because obviously military wives' choir, that's raised the profile really positively. And I think

we need some more positive public knowledge put out there, I think that profile needs to be raised. Number one, so they can meet their recruitment needs and so other people can experience a lot of the positive things that I experienced. And number two, so that people like myself and lots of other women that I've been in touch with as a result of the V word don't necessarily feel left behind.

That was Ria Jackson and Lauren Goodyear-McBard speaking to Jess. Now, it's the end of an era. Peggy from The Archers is retiring at 103 years old. Well, actually, it's the actor playing Peggy who's hanging up her mic, and that's June Spencer. She's played Peggy since 1951.

Her last appearance was in Sunday's Omnibus edition. Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall, was a big fan of Peggy's, calling her a true national treasure who's been part of my life and millions of others for as long as I can remember. Well, on Monday, Jessica Crichton was joined by Felicity Finch, who's played Ruth Archer for over 30 years, so has known June for quite a long time. She asked her whether she knew June was going to retire before she heard the omnibus. I heard very recently that she was going to retire. But what I didn't realise was when I was listening, I listened to yesterday's omnibus to catch up on the week. And I didn't realise until this morning that the scenes that I heard yesterday were June's last scenes that she was recording.

I was shocked and I feel quite, I have to say, I feel, you know, emotional about that, that I won't actually see June in studio again. And that's, you know, that's quite difficult. Yeah, I can imagine after working for so many years with each other, how are the rest of the Archers team reacting? Well, we have a WhatsApp group. And this morning, my phone hasn't stopped pinging.

So people just say, oh, my God, I didn't realize, you know, that yesterday was the last episode we'd hear. And what an inspiration she is, what a role model is, you know, to have somebody that, you know, I think one of the really strong things about the Alpacist program is the multi-generational aspect. You know, the huge cross-section of characters from very young, in fact, two babies just been born, right through to, you know, the older members of the cast. And that is so important.

So, you know, somebody like June is a, you know, she really is an inspiration. I mean, she's lived through the different changes in, you know, throughout the century, let alone the, you know, Archer's life, the way it has changed over the years. Well, tell us, what's her secret? You've worked with her. How has she managed to keep on going to past the hundred? I honestly don't know. She just has, you can, you know, I remember when I first saw her, when I first started in the program back, you know, as I said, over 30 years ago in 1987,

she struck me as being a cross between, when I looked at her, a cross between the queen and a prima ballerina. She has that amazing poise, that amazing, you know, natural, innate stature. And I think, you know, I think it's that how she's lasted so, you know, wanted to be in the programme for so long is that obviously she's kept her health, which has been brilliant.

You know, you have to travel to Birmingham to do The Archers. You're not doing it on your doorstep. You know, she lives, you know, on the other side of London. But I think it's that she, you know, it means so much to her. Radio, being an actress, it's her, you know, it's her identity. It's what her passion, the programme, you know, what happens. You're growing, you're growing with the character. So as June has grown older, so Peggy has grown older and vice versa.

And I think just that, you know, what happens to your character over the years and what you bring to that is always fulfilling. You know, it never ceases to be fulfilling playing a character that you're going on that journey with your character right through to the end of your life and the end of the character's life. And that doesn't sound morbid at all no no of course not but she has so many fans doesn't she including some from the royal family well yes i mean camilla is a is a huge fan and we actually attended um an event at crown's house earlier this year and some people said it was difficult to tell who was the greater royalty because june was actually sitting in a chair and so many people just, you know, were going and chatting with her, taking her food and generally making sure,

you know, very tough that she was able to be there. Yeah, Camilla is a great fan of the Archers and, you know, of somebody like June. That was Felicity Finch there. And Team Woman's Hour want to wish June Spencer a very happy retirement. Now, Listener's Week is coming up, and there are still a few slots left for your stories and questions. Maybe you're starting a career or navigating the dating scene, or perhaps you have a health or social issue you'd like to put to an expert,

or maybe you just want to share some gossip. There may even be an unusual lifestyle, beauty, fashion, or social media trend that you'd like us to cover. Whatever it is, get in touch with us. It's bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour or on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And remember, you can enjoy the programme any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you have to do is subscribe to the podcast. It's free via the Women's Hour website. But do please get in touch with your stories or whatever it is you'd like us to talk about on Women's Hour for Listener's

Week. Now on yesterday's special programme, we commemorated the 75th anniversary of the partition of India, one of the most seismic events of the 20th century. In August 1947, independence was finally granted to India, ending 200 years of British rule. It was also the moment a line was drawn that partitioned the country into two, India and eastern West Pakistan that later became Bangladesh. It was the largest mass migration movement of the time, 15 million people becoming refugees in their own land overnight, the land they'd lived on for generations, and up to 1 million people lost their lives. The trauma of partition was also the violence, the horrific violence that surrounded it. But the experience of what women went through is rarely spoken about. So we dedicated the whole hour of Woman's Hour yesterday to hearing her story, the forgotten women of partition.

It's really important to hear in detail the experiences of women during partition. So we spoke about violence, kidnapping and suicide, which may be difficult listening for some of you. I started the programme by speaking to Shruti Kapila, Professor of Indian History at Cambridge University, and Rithu Menon, a feminist publisher, writer, and author of Borders and Boundaries, Women in India's Partition. And I began by asking Shruti to explain the historical events that led up to Partition. I think there's the immediate context of the Second World War ending, and there's a kind of endgame of empire that begins. I mean, India is the first country

to be decolonized after America. So it's a big change in world history. And of course, it is also known to be the so-called jewel in the crown. So there's a kind of momentum that has built up from 1945 onwards that the British are going to have to leave. But this has proceeded by almost 30 years of mass mobilization against the British. So it's not the endgame of empire that is triggered only by the war, but that it becomes unsustainable after the war because of 30 years of mass mobilization. Also, in the 1940s, for the first time in the opening years, Pakistan gains as a momentum, a mass momentum amongst the people of, you know, particularly the majority provinces such as Punjab, Bengal, and vast parts of North India.

So there is a question as to what is going to be the political settlement of India after the British leave. And that's really when this idea of partition comes. And let me just also say to viewers, it has kind of world historical implications because Pakistan is the first avowedly Muslim nation in the world. And secondly, it would be the same kind of settlement which would be repeated in Israel and Palestine only a year later. So it becomes a way of British, wherever the British leave, there will be partitions. And it's really India, which becomes the first big story, because it is also deeply, deeply, deeply violent. It is an unprecedented form of violence that the Indian subcontinent

sees. So a million people die, conservative figures, within a year, and 10 million plus move within the same period. So that's really, in a very crass, short nutshell, the story of a very complicated history. So the buildup was, as you just said, for 30 years, the momentum towards moving towards independence was building. But then actually the division, the you just said, for 30 years, the momentum towards moving towards independence was building. But then actually the division, the line of partition, what actually happened, happened really rapidly, didn't it? That's right. Explain a bit about that. Yeah. So the end game, the final end game, the political settlement actually takes less than 75 days.

This is part of the problem. And this is and in some ways this is, you know, this is how Mountbatten comes. The idea of Mountbatten is a kind of decorated hero or figure. I mean, I don't know if he's a hero, but he's certainly a figure in the Second World War in the Southeast Asian front. He's appointed as viceroy precisely because he seemed to be not too invested in Indian affairs, but also carries the authority of the royal family and the imprimatur of the royal family. And the minute he comes, the idea was initially that it would take another 14, 15 months of negotiations, but it then is kind of fast

forwarded. And within, as it were, months, two to three months, it has decided, you know, initial plans, initial discussions which have taken place, say, from between 1945, 46, for various reasons, you know, are torn down, and a new partition plan is instituted, in which the idea is, because if you look at the map of India, its western frontier, which is Punjab, and its eastern frontier, Bengal, had Muslim, this is what could be Muslim majority provinces. Readers, listeners should also know that having said that, this is not a complete balkanization or ethnic cleansing that we understand Europe with, because India still date houses the second largest Muslim population in the world. So you have, you know,

Pakistan, which is established as a Muslim nation, and India, which is going to be secular, which is to say it is going to be a composite culture. So that's really, I mean, it's very complicated to answer, but just these very simple facts can tell you how difficult it was. And then you have a kind of crass, blunt instrument of a line which is then made to create, as it were, Muslim majority provinces, because Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs live cheek by jowl together in what is now Pakistan and India, that bit of India. And of course, Hindus and Muslims on the eastern frontier of Bengal. And so what happened? So the line was drawn, it was created, as you said, 75 days. So what then happened to the women? Well, yes, so you have, as it were, premonitions of a separation or batwara, as it's called in Hindi Punjabi, you know, in early months of January of 47 itself.

And that, in a way, you know, violence becomes, as it were, highly mobilized in these districts, because people don't know if you have a district which is, you know, 51, 49 percent either way for each community. There is a kind of anxiety, which part is going to be Pakistan, which part is going to be India. And as a result, you have, you know, communities and even political parties arming themselves. And this is a civil war. The state is only present to the extent that it's entirely negligent. The British completely evacuate all responsibility for this violence. And you have people literally ethnically beginning to, you know, turn upon their neighbors, they turn upon their kin. And women are, of course, the frontier. They are the essential

frontier of this boundary, because in any nationalism, violent or non-violent, the woman's body becomes, as it were, the site of purity, of national honor. And in this case, it also becomes the site of religious honor. And therefore, there's a huge anxiety amongst religious groups to both, as it were, make the women the weapons of this war, the civil war. I mean, they're really the weapons. And they also bear the brunt of actually making these new boundaries anew. And you have, I mean, Ritu Menon, it's a great privilege to be in conversation with her. I've never met her, but you know, they did a phenomenal pioneering work on, as it were, excavating these experiences about 30 years ago. And it's really from their work we learned what actually happened on an everyday basis,

on a very ordinary, you know, what happened to the women, were they being told to kind of sometimes commit suicide, you know, to jump into wells is a very prominent image now that comes from it, that, you know, women were pushed into wells so that they don't move because moving was perilous. You could be raped, you could be killed, but it was the rape that mattered. And also the kind of heightened sense of forced conversions. Would they lose their religion as well?

A lot, a lot for listeners to be processing. You've mentioned her, you've introduced her. So I'm going to bring her in actually, Rithu Menon, because Rithu, in 1984, you started thinking about collecting oral histories of women. So let's bring you in to join the conversation live from Delhi. Tell us why you felt the importance of doing that work. So, you know, when we started, actually, we weren't really looking at the violence because that's not something that had ever been part of the conversation. It had never even struck us that this is what we would find.

When we began, we began because post Mrs. Gandhi's assassination, there was another kind of communal carnage which took place, which was against the Sikhs. And it was the widows of 1984, the Sikh widows of 1984, who alerted us to the fact by saying that this was a repeat of the partition violence. And what they said was, this is our own country. We thought we had left all that behind. And here it is again. That got us thinking about what it is that actually this violence,

this level of communal, ethnic, religion-based violence means? What does it entail for women? And so when we began, and actually I must say that, you know, we are not historians. We didn't come at this from a historian's perspective, but we are very much a part of the women's movement. And so our idea was actually to do a three-country study, that is Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh, to see what the whole notion of nation and country means for women. What does religious community

entail? I mean, do women have a country? Would they die for a country, for example? What did it mean to them to move to another country in 1947? What did it mean to them to leave what they knew as their home and their settled community to go to a place that was completely alien, that was in fact another country. And then through doing this work, you unearthed this, the horror of the reality of what happened. What were those shocking testimonies that you heard with you at the time? We met a family in Rajasthan, a family in Kota. We met the nephew. And these were men who were talking, because we spoke to men and women both. Of course, the way they told it was very different from the way the women told it.

Nevertheless, he told us about his uncle, who had six daughters. And he said when the violence began, and actually, we must remember that it began very early in 1947, in February or March, much before the lines of demarcation were made. He said that he was told by his neighbors who were Muslim and friends that they would look after them, that they didn't need to worry about their safety, that they didn't need to worry about the women. And the patriarch of the Muslim family said to this uncle of this person we were speaking to, look, why don't you give your daughters in marriage to us? We've known you since we were born, since they were born. And when they become our brides, they'll be completely safe and you won't need to go anywhere and you won't need to worry about them. So he listened to them and he nodded and he didn't disagree and he didn't say yes and he didn't say no. But that night, he decapitated 13 members of his family including all his daughters and then he went up to the roof

of his house and he shouted to his neighbor and he said bring your marriage parties the brides are ready for their grooms and he committed suicide himself. This story and similar stories were repeated to us several times, not once, not twice, tens and dozens of times. Shruti, we've... In different forms. Yes. Yeah, Shruti, and these are stories that now are being unearthed and spoken about.

Why was this happening? Why was this particular form of violence towards women taking place? Not only the threat of violence from the other, but from within your own family? Well, I think this is one of something that goes to the heart of my research, that in some ways in India, certainly in South Asia, violence takes on a very intimate form. So typically, you know, people turn,

political violence turns against one's kith, neighbors, the known. And that's something, you know, that can be discussed later. But precisely because, as I said, you know, women are kind of perceived and actually seem to have all the kind of elements of nationalism,

the repository of the nation, the family, the religion, that they become such a potent symbol, not just for deification, but then for their destruction, then for their bodily destruction, which is why, as it were, partition is made through not simply the movement of people, but actually through what happens to women in that moment. And in a way, you could either incorporate women through conversion, like the story just told, you know, join, you know, and people, some people made those choices, you're now seeing in the oral archives and private archives, and even on WhatsApp and Facebook, you know,

brothers and sisters reuniting 75 years later, across the border, one Sikh and one Muslim, you know, 75 years down the road. And this is not an atypical story. So these are people making certain contingent kind of decisions. And then there is the violence, as I said, of, you know, families, the patriarchs of their own family or even religious leaders, you know, collecting women around temples and gurdwaras and, you know, if they're moving from the Pakistan side to India, you know, to be, you know, sacrificing primarily, killing them as sacrifice for that honor. And then, of course, there is mass rape. And so you have abduction, kidnapping, mass rape, but also, you know, and so I looked after or not treated will repeat in itself, will repeat. And it's therefore precisely because you have a pogrom in 84 against the Sikhs in Delhi. And Delhi is the epicenter of this communal violence.

A large number of refugees are pouring into Delhi from the Western border. And this is precisely why then, you know, these stories are unearthed. Yeah. So that's actually quite important. So this is why if we don't resolve this, these things will go on. A very powerful listen.

That was Shruti Kapila and Ritvi Menon. And you can listen back to the rest of the interview and in fact, the whole programme on BBC Sounds, which includes an interview with one of the writers of Ms Marvel, Fatima Ashkar, and a very moving, poignant and haunting performance by Amrit Gore. I urge you to head to BBC Sounds to listen to the whole programme. Now BBC Afghan have a new radio programme called Women which focuses on women and girls especially those in rural areas in Afghanistan. It's presented by Shazia Haya in Pashto and Alia Frazan in Dari,

who fled Afghanistan last August when the Taliban retook control. It aims to inform, educate and empower its listeners. Farhanak Amidi is the presenter of The Fifth Floor. She spoke to Shazia and Alia and began by asking Shazia about the name of the programme. The name of the programme in Pashto, it's Merman. It means Miss or Lady. It's a very formal word. So it's like Miss Lady.

Yeah, Miss Lady, yeah. Okay, what about Ndari? Ndari, it's Zan. Zan is not equal to Lady, but Zan is equal to Women. And Alia, the programme goes out only on radio. Why is that? Because in this particular time, women do not have access to any other media. It's very difficult to watch TV because they don't have access to electricity. And also they don't have access to social media.

That was why we chose the radio to kind of serve all women, especially in remote areas. Shazia, we all know how difficult it is, even when you are in Afghanistan, in the field, to get women to talk to you and give you their opinion. How do you do it all the way from London? It must be really challenging. Yeah, it is. It's a tough job. Previously, the fall of Kabul, it was really easy. Women did talk to us, even in

television and social media, but now everything has changed in Afghanistan and it's a tough job. But most of women now, they're really afraid of their safety. So we say, okay, I won't say your name, I won't say your location, and even though you're afraid that your own family would recognize your voice, whatever you say, I will write word by word and then I will voice over your every word and then you would be fine.

Apart from what Shazia mentioned, there are some other issues with our contributors in Afghanistan that they have fled Afghanistan. We cannot find them through their WhatsApp numbers or we cannot find them through their local numbers. We just ask their friends, their family. We search through social media that where's that lady? Where's this lady? It's kind of like detective work. Yeah, it's a tough work. But still, we never give up, right?

We don't, we don't. I know both of you. I know you won't give up. And what about the content? How are you trying to make it a bit more different from what is being told in the news? Well, you know, Farina, there was a special program for women during our childhood. And when we came here, the management just decided, again, let's have a special programme. So I emailed my editor and I just wrote, it would be really nice that we should have debates on taboo issues regarding women

and also health section is really important and we should bring out a woman's voice. And at the end of the email, I just wrote, I would love to present this programme. So please consider me as well. Just sneak that in as well. And when you say taboo topics, can you give us some examples of those? You know, Franek, in Afghanistan as well, there are some issues that's taboo for Afghan people.

And there's a need that we should talk about those matters. Like, you know, about period. You know, in rural areas, you can't talk in front of your family members about period. You can't ask, OK, my dear brother or my father, please, please bring me pads because I can't go out. It's taboo. Yeah. Like even family planning. In this program, I just talked with a female doctor.

I asked her how family can consider family planning. You know, even that lady couldn't say condom. The word. Yeah, the word. Even taboo for doctors. Yeah, it is. I totally understand that. And Alia, what about you? Because you were the women's affairs journalist in Kabul and we've worked a little with each other throughout the years as well. What kind of topics did you have in mind? I don't want to be this program like a news program. I just want to educate women through this program. I just want to be this program like a news program. I just want to educate women through this program. I just want to inspire them through this program and want to entertain them through this program.

I try to put a little bit music through the program because the music is banned in Afghanistan. And also to find inspiring women from Afghanistan and all over the world that can inspire them and motivate them and also educate them. This is the main point that women in Afghanistan, they don't know about their basic rights, that they have the right to study, the right to work, the right to marry, the right to divorce. According to Sharia, Allah has given you the right. But what about under Taliban? Because Taliban is forbidding all of these right now. Yes, we don't want it to relate to Taliban

because in Afghanistan there are a lot of other issues apart Taliban. They live in a kind of traditional society. It's about culture. It's about mentality. You can change the government, you can change the rules, but it's very difficult to change someone about mentality. You can change the government, you can change the rules, but it's very difficult to change someone's mentality. And we are trying to do this through our discussions. We bring talented women in our discussions because they listen to women. And also we try to bring scholars in the discussions, especially religious scholars. People really listen to them. They listen to religious scholars. People really listen to them. They listen to religious scholars. They have authority.

Yes, they have the authority and the influence. I think this works, but not now. It takes time. I hope in one year I see the change. When you are making these programs about these issues, do you imagine a single person in your head? Do you think of a girl, of a woman you knew back home? Alia, you first.

I imagine my mother because she's in Afghanistan and she's in a city that she does not have access to the social media or television even because they don't have enough electricity. I imagine my mother. I just tell her that this woman can inspire you. This woman can inspire you. This woman can tell you that you need to be strong, even if you are far from your children. Because my mother, all of her children have gone from the country and she's kind of alone there. What about you, Shazia? Well, this program is really close to my heart.

When I present this program, I talk to my female cousins and especially to my mum. I'm the fourth child of the family and my mum has five children. And whenever I got angry in home, I just yelled at my mum, which is not a good thing, that why you brought me to this world? Why you just don't got abortion? And my mum always told me that on that time we didn't have family planning and I did a debate about family planning and that program I just repeat So family planning was something

that reminded you of your mum? Yeah, this is This program is a story, my mum it's a story, Alia's mum and it's a story of every Afghan mom and housewife. That was Shazia Haya and Alia Farzan. And the new radio program Women is available via FM and shortwave frequencies across Afghanistan. That's all from me today.

Thank you for joining me. And remember, join Emma on Monday from 10 for Woman's Hour. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.