Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: LeAnn Rimes, Women in the Royal Navy, Althea McNish

Episode Date: November 12, 2022

The Grammy award-winning singer, songwriter and actress LeAnn Rimes joins us in the studio. Her unforgettable ballad "How Do I Live" holds the record as Billboard’s Hot 100 all-time #1 hit by a female artist. She talks about the inspiration her latest album, God’s Work.A woman who served in the Royal Navy for 20 years speaks for the first time about how she was raped and sexually assaulted during her career. The woman who we are calling Catherine says that when a senior colleague discovered she was pregnant, they suggested that an appointment be made for her to have an abortion.The Conservative MP Sarah Atherton serves on the Defence Select Committee, and led an inquiry last year into the experiences of women in the armed forces, which heard from 4200 women, including some 9% of women currently serving in the armed forces. The Atherton report found that 64% of female veterans and 58% of currently-serving women reported experiencing bullying, harassment or discrimination during their careers. She gives her response to Catherine’s story.Lotte Wubben-Moy has become the latest women’s football player to say she won’t be watching the World Cup in Qatar, because of where it’s being held and their stance on homosexuality and equal rights. Suzy Wrack from the Guardian tells us why women speaking out about this is so significant.Althea McNish was the first Caribbean designer to achieve international recognition and is one of the UK’s most influential textile designers. There’s currently a major retrospective of her, Althea McNish: Colour is Mine at the Whitworth in Manchester. Rose Sinclair, Lecturer in Design Education at Goldsmiths, University of London, co-curated the exhibition.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, where we bring you a selection of highlights from the week just gone. Coming up, Leigh-Anne Rimes, the Grammy award-winning singing superstar, joins us to discuss her new album, Turning 40 and Growing Up in the Spotlight. As a child star, most people don't survive it. I joke, but it's true. That's been my greatest been my greatest feat in this life is, you know, surviving up until now. And then, like I said, thriving at this point. So it's a rough life to navigate. We discuss why women footballers might be more likely to speak out about the FIFA World Cup in Qatar. And have you heard of Althea McNeesh? We learn about the career and legacy of the first Caribbean designer to achieve international recognition. But first, on Thursday's programme, we looked at allegations of sexual assault in the Royal Navy. A woman who served for 20 years has broken her silence and spoken for the first time about something she's never felt able to share before. We're

calling her Catherine to protect her identity, and shortly you're going to hear her talk about being raped while serving on a ship. She became pregnant as a result, and then a senior colleague suggested she have an abortion. She's felt compelled to speak now because of a series of allegations about the treatment of women in the Royal Navy in newspapers in recent weeks. Those allegations have focused on the experience of women on submarines, but today we hear an insight into life on board ships. Women have been allowed to serve alongside men on ships since 1993 and on submarines since 2011.

Catherine remains very proud of her years of service, a poignant truth to not lose sight of, especially on the eve of Remembrance Sunday, as we remember the service of our armed forces. Here is the woman we're calling Catherine. Her words are spoken by an actor. Emma began by asking her about her experience on her first ship and we should warn you that the following interview may include descriptions of events some listeners may find distressing. I can remember on the very first ship that I joined, it was very clear that the men weren't necessarily happy with having the women on board,

and they were still trying their kind of little ways to make you feel unhappy so that you would complain and that the powers that be would think, oh, actually, this isn't working. Let's get women off the ships again. And, yeah, it was really tough, actually, where for so many years we had to kind of prove that we could do the job.

But sadly, that also meant that we had to put up with, you know, wrong behaviour. Could you tell me about some of the wrong behaviour that happened to you? Uh, yeah. So, just a few sort of glimpses into it really. One day I was sat at a desk typing and all of a sudden I had my supervisor's penis tapping away on my shoulder, completely out of any clothes. It was just there. I'm not quite sure what that was going to achieve or anything.

Sorry, just before you move on, I mean, that's an extraordinary insight into a behaviour that, you know, never mind in the workplace, it would be very hard to imagine in a, I don't know, at best a jokey social setting. What was the... Was anything said? What was the... Was anything said? What was the mood?

Literally nothing was said. He just came behind me. He was checking what I was doing. He was my supervisor. And there it was on my shoulder. And he just put his penis on your shoulder while you were at your desk? Yeah.

You kind of, like, think, I'm not quite sure what i do here do i say anything and make a big scene of it do i carry on and hope it goes away it's one of those moments where you kind of think i'm not even sure is this is this actually happening you know and if that was to happen today in 2022 um in fact if someone came behind me now I think I would do the same kind of freeze moment what do you think you know what the hell am I meant to carry on I don't know it's one of those weird kind of moments that it was almost like well this is how things are you know you you just put up with whatever comes next. And it might not be, you know, necessarily a sexual assault, but it's just a behaviour where they try to make you feel uncomfortable so that hopefully they won't have to put up with you there for much longer. That sounds absolutely horrific.

And I understand there were even more serious sexual assaults that happened to you. Yeah so in my very early days of joining the service I struggled with a few things and I was told by my supervisors on the course my course instructors that I had to do whatever I could to pass the course or I'll be sent home and discharged and at the time there were some physical training instructors who would help us get through the course but in the help to get through the course they expected sexual favours in return and I do recall I think at the time that it was in the paper, actually, that some people would make complaints about that sort of thing. So, you know, I was given this ultimatum of go down to the sports hall and do whatever you can, do whatever is necessary to pass the course or we'll discharge you.

And so I had to kind of learn very quickly as a young woman that this is how we get through life. This is how they expect you as a woman to get through your career. And when I went on to my next establishment on one particular night, one of the senior instructors of my course did assault me. And I reported it the very next morning to another. And I was actually given an ultimatum of, you can take the official line and you can make your complaint to the service police, but we'll contact your next ship and tell them that you've caused this trouble and that you're a troublemaker and you may not then be trusted in your future career.

Or we can deal with it here. It be uh closed doors it won't be made official and you can go off next week and you can join the ship and you can have your career and so again it was very early in my career that I had a well it's just sort of rammed down me that you kind of put up and shut up if you want your career. But I mean, I am really proud of my career and I've had some really happy times and the sad and uncomfortable times that I talk about, although there's a lot of them, it's actually a minority of my time. So I'm still really happy that I served and I'm still really proud of my service and I'm really proud of all of those people I've served alongside. I'm just not necessarily happy with the culture that was okay at to try and put an aim on what happened to you as well, to recognise those very dark times as well as the good times.

And I also understand you sustained injuries. Yes. So there was a time when I did sustain some injuries. I had some bruising and some cuts and actually it happened on a ship and I needed medical attention as well. And I was given sleeping tablets and signed off of duties for a couple of days. And I've since, um, not long ago, actually, I got a copy, a whole copy of my medical records and my medical records didn't mention any of that. It says that I was given sleeping tablets and signed off of work because I was homesick. It was no mention of any assault, no mention of any of the cuts and bruises

or the medical attention that I needed. And actually that was a medical member of staff with a direct access to the captain of the ship that could have helped or said something. But instead it is kind of brushed under the carpet and we'll just put something else in the medical records because she'll never know and she may not even ever read these medical records. So was that a sexual assault?

Yes, it was, yeah. And it was that bad you sustained injuries? Yeah. And several years later, I was pregnant. I had a child and all through my pregnancy, it makes me really sad to think that, you know, I went through this now. But at the time, I was begging my midwife to allow me to have a cesarean because I couldn't bear anyone to think, to see any damage or anything that had been caused previously. Yeah, that's probably the worst time I went through, really. So you didn't want doctors to see you during the birth of your child

because the harm that you'd been caused, the injuries that you had received were so severe? Yeah. Or I believe they were. Would you describe, however you did sustain those injuries, would you describe that as rape? Yeah. There wasn't any consent given.

It was... I don't think you could describe it in any other way. I think it's really important for you to be the one to say that. I don't want to suppose anything about what happened to you, but if you're describing something which had made you feel like you couldn't be seen by doctors in a different setting it it does sound like it was incredibly difficult and and and violent it was it was just horrible and it was kind of like the time of my life where I was really grateful, you know, that I had this at the end of it.

I had this lovely little bundle of joy to cuddle and to love. But actually, in the kind of the approach up to that, that wasn't a memorable journey. Yeah. Have you ever spoken about this before? Have you ever talked to those who are close to you about this happening to you? No talked to to those who are close to you about this happening to you no not to those that are close to me um I've recently in the last few years been searching for counselling and for for help because it does affect me it you know it affects almost every single day um the things that I've through. They affect everything I do in life.

It's there. And there's also a big struggle in trying to find the right mental health support for something like this. There's a lot of mental health support out there if you've sustained things like PTSD during combat. But there's very little help and support if you've sustained mental health issues because of sexual trauma whilst you've been serving and a lot of the help and support that is out there is for where you've sustained it through one single incident of sexual trauma you know not through years of being subjected to a culture of wrongdoing. I eventually did find some help and I did receive a formal diagnosis of complex PTSD due to my service. And thankfully I am now receiving some directed mental health support.

That's very good to hear. And it sounds, as you say, like it's been difficult to find to try to get that support in any way. If I can, to what you just said about to be accused again of causing trouble like I had been previously if I reported something? And also my life was moving on. I was having to leave one place and go to another because I was going to spend my maternity, I was actually told by a very senior officer that I was bringing shame on the Navy because I was a single female that had become pregnant at sea, that if I was his daughter, he'd be very ashamed of me. And he actually...

I laugh because I just can't believe he even said it he actually gave me a few extra days off um free leave kind of thing to go home and contemplate my future and told me in no uncertain terms an appointment could be arranged for me next week and I could go back to the ship a few days later with no questions asked so when you've got people like that who are the very people that you could potentially complain to or raise these issues to saying that you are the one that's done the wrongdoing you are the person that's brought shame on the navy that you are the one bringing us into disrepute. How on earth do you open your mouth and say, hold up, but not once have you asked me if I'm okay with this. Not once have you asked me how this even happened when there's a no-touch rule in force and we've been at sea for

several weeks. You know, not once did anyone say to me, are you okay? It was all a question of, oh my gosh, look what you've done. This is the shame that you're bringing on. It's not long that women have been at sea, women have fought for this position and you've created another issue. So who do you go to when you're in that situation? So no, I didn't report it. So to be clear, you had an abortion suggested to you? Yes. By a senior member of the Navy? He didn't use the word abortion, but he did tell me that an appointment could be made

for me the following week and I could be back on the ship a few days later. Again, because I just want to be clear, had you become pregnant through the assault, through the rape? Yes. Do you know of other people who have experienced this? I know other people who've sadly become pregnant or happily become pregnant, whichever way you want to look at it, through instances that may not have been a relationship or may not have been consented to. And are you talking about in the Navy and I think if the powers that be actually do conduct an investigation into what's

happened in the submarine service, I would actually really like to see that that investigation take place from an outside organisation, not an internal group of people. I'd also like to see that extended across the naval service and indeed across the other services as well. And I think that we've come to a point where this has become made public, that this has been happening. We've got a few people now to sit up and go, this should never happen. Let's look at it. Let's see what we can do to put this right. But actually, that probably needs to happen across all of the services not only the submarine service and I think the only way that anyone is going to get to any positive outcome out of it and to move

things forward and to make positive changes is if it's an external body of people that do the investigation. I'll come back to that in just a moment but to finish if I can with your career I imagine things were different for you when you were pregnant but when you came back and carried on serving did assaults continue or were you then treated differently? Yeah so not necessarily full-on sexual assaults but there was always uh sexual terminology phrases actions and so on one term that i really and i know a lot of women really really despise the use of it a lot of men will and still refer to a woman as split ass and that is a term used to describe a woman as like a sex object

so you'd always hear oh here comes those splits did you see that splits so you'd always have that kind of terminology around you uh there would always be little things you know a smack on the bum as you walk past or just generally talking about who they would want to how many crates they would need to drink to have sex with a certain person and the more crates they would need the less attractive they would find you but they would still do it as if they had to do it bringing us to today if i can because there could be some listening i know you serve for around 20 years we're not going to talk about exact dates because we want to to protect who you are but there'll be some of you listening today that maybe say you joined a different navy um it's not like that now or it's it's it's different

things have moved on we also hear from the first sea lord adm Sir Ben Key, calling some of the claims we've been reading about from women abhorrent, saying sexual harassment has no place in the Royal Navy, will not be tolerated. Anyone who's found culpable will be held accountable. What do you say to those who say it's different? And do you have faith things have changed? Well, to anyone saying that it's different i hope it is different because i really wouldn't want anyone joining the navy or any of the other services now to go through anything like that but the claims in the daily mail um you know i think they really need to be taken seriously and whilst it's great that he can say that this behaviour has no place in the Royal Navy,

yes, it doesn't have any place in the Royal Navy, but that doesn't mean that it's not happening, which is one reason why I said earlier about perhaps investigations need to happen from an outside agency rather than an internal agency. Because, I mean, the other part of this is, you know, which you've also talked about, is that, you know, you're often stuck in confined spaces together with the type of work that's going on, whether it's on ships or submarines.

And women within the forces and specifically within the Royal Navy, you could report it to are going to be living alongside the very people that may have done this and having a beer with them after work in the bar. So how do you. There was no complaint system that is completely separate to the people who are serving. So anyone that's going to investigate a complaint is actually serving and working alongside the people who you're complaining about. You've been listening to the woman we are calling Catherine and her words were voiced by an actor. Well the Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace gave us the following statement. I'm very serious about tackling this issue. I would also say that the military I left 25 years ago is a very different armed forces and I would challenge the assertion that the reforms we're making aren't changing things. We are removing service complaints from the chain of command, are very different armed forces. And I would challenge the assertion that the reforms we're making aren't changing things.

We are removing service complaints from the chain of command, investing in a new serious crime unit across all services, linking poor responses by commanders to their careers, taking fast administrative action to remove people when required,

and ensuring a stricter code of Crown Prosecution Service or Service Prosecuting Authority trial paths than ever before. Much of Sarah Atherton's report is being implemented and a lot of the serving personnel I speak to, like the Service Women's Network, agree that things are improving. Things are changing and many women serving today would say they are, but there are challenges as there are in the civilian world. Now you may have heard the Atherton report mentioned there in the statement. Sarah Atherton is the Conservative MP for Wrexham, an armed forces veteran and very recently and briefly a junior defence minister in Liz Truss's government. Sarah serves on the Defence Select

Committee where she led an inquiry last year into the experiences of women in the armed forces, which heard from 4,200 women, including some 9% of women currently serving in the armed forces. The Atherton report found that 64% of female veterans and 58% of currently serving women reported experiencing bullying, harassment or discrimination during their careers. The inquiry also heard evidence of sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape experienced by servicewomen. The committee discovered a lack of faith in the complaint system. Six in ten women did not report what they experienced. Of those who did complain, one third rated the experience extremely poor. Well, Emma spoke to Sarah Atherton, who'd taken the time to listen to Catherine's story earlier this week,

and asked for her reaction. I was deeply saddened by her account. And, you know, this is for a woman who had stepped up to serve our country. And, you know, this repugnant behaviour is really quite unacceptable and incompatible with civil society and a professional military. And I'm pleased to hear that she's getting the support she needed. But this is totally unacceptable. But unfortunately, as someone that ran an inquiry

into the experiences of women in the armed forces and female veterans, it's too familiar. What about the idea it's too familiar. What about the idea it's changed, it's not like that anymore? People say this is all historic, these sorts of things. Yes, there's a lot of legacy, what they call legacy historical accounts coming out. I'm pleased to say, and I hope she'll take some reassurance in this, that it has changed and is changing. And I'll go through, if you like, some of the changes that the MOD have embraced through the recommendations made in the Defence Select Committee's report. from complaints, which I think has continually proven to be a problem, a pinch point with making

complaints, because it's that abuse of power. So things have changed quite significantly. But from my point of view, not fast enough and not far enough. The armed forces complaints system, the changes to that that that you're starting to talk a bit about there, is due to come into force on the 19th of November, a little bit later this month. Does that go far enough? Do those changes go far enough? Yes, there's a few changes. There's a transition of the service complaint system, which will remove the chain of command from complaints of a sexual nature, which the evidence suggests was a big problem during the inquiry. And the three services now will have independent, or they say independent, independent of their unit, central admissibility teams. So a woman now, or a man, can make a complaint through the central admissibility team, not their chain of command. So when the MOD say that's independent, it's independent of the

chain of command, not the military. So that is a new system that was set up in June, and that's up and running now. So that removes that abuse of power that we see so often in complaints. But on the 19th of November, the MOD are introducing a zero tolerance policy with a presumption of discharge if anyone is found to have perpetrated an act or sexual act or brought the military into disrepute. So what's not going far enough? Is it brought the military into disrepute. So what's not going far enough? Is it that the military is still involved with investigating the military? Well, there's a couple of areas that I would like to see the MOD go further with because I would like to see this new complaint structure

where complainants go through a central admissibility team to extend not just to complaints of a sexual nature, but complaints of intimidation, harassment and bullying also. I also would like to see the zero tolerance policy apply to voyeurism and people that stand back having done the mandatory bystander training and do not report and then collude with these acts by not coming forward and assisting as they should do.

So I would like to see that zero tolerance extended. It was confirmed that it will apply to phase one military training, which was an area that we weren't sure about, but the MOD have now confirmed that. And if anyone has ever read the report that I chaired, I would also like to see rape cases trialled in civilian courts. And at the moment, they are remaining, by and large, within military courts.

That was a big criticism at the time, I remember that being a question. I remember even putting that to the Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, who we did invite on to the programme. He wasn't able to make it this morning, but I hope to talk to him certainly this side of Christmas. Catherine is concerned that the people investigating complaints are still going to be drinking with those that they're accusing in the officers' mess. Are you saying that's not going to be the case after the 19th of November?

That was a question that was asked of the MOD on Tuesday at a Defence Select Committee inquiry. And after some hesitation, it was confirmed that that person would be removed pending investigation. So I'm hopeful that that person would be removed because what we had was, as indicated in your report, women having to then live work with the perpetrators of crime, which is totally unacceptable and, in this case, on a ship. So you can't get away from anything. So hopefully that will happen it's my job now back on the defense select committee as a former mod minister to make sure that these things do

happen what would you say to anyone who's listening to this whose daughter might be thinking of joining the royal navy or the armed forces or they themselves are thinking of joining or thinking about this as a career? The lady that we just heard the report from actually said right at the very end, I served 20 years and I'm very proud of that. And I'm very proud of my service in the military. And my inquiry highlighted that nine out of 10 women actually would recommend a career in the military. And we need to hold on to that because it is an excellent career and changes have happened.

They may not help people in the past, but they will help the recruits of the future. And I would certainly be very happy for my daughter to be going into the military. Yeah, I mean, I just think it's also, know it's um it's not all in the past that's that's the other issue and you know you want things as you talked about being between systems to be better now but there will be concerns just still about culture yet we've talked a lot about systems and how to police things when they have gone wrong but you know the military like the police reflects society we're in as well and uh but the culture of how you all live together and how that all goes hand in hand i mean you know

just the detail from katherine about her her senior you know putting his penis on her shoulder while she's working there are people who may still describe that i I'm not one of them, as, I don't know, banter or jokes and not sexual assault. But that's the concern as well, that it's not all historical. Yeah. So the last chief of defence staff referred to that as laddish behaviour. He's now left and the culture needs to leave with him cultural change will not happen overnight um so you know i will expect probably see more cases coming forward as women have a voice as women feel more confident as women know that this is now unacceptable and i probably will expect cases to increase. That's a bad thing but

it's also a good thing because it does indicate that systems are changing. Sarah Atherton MP and you can listen to the full programme by searching for Thursday's episode on BBC Sounds. Still to come on the programme we hear how an Allen key unlocked memories for the textile designer Althea McNeesh. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to our daily podcast. It's free on BBC Sounds. Now for a bit of this. How do I live without you? I want to know How do I breathe

Without you That was, of course, the Grammy award-winning singer, songwriter and actress Leigh-Anne Rimes. Leigh-Anne has sold more than 48 million units globally. At just 13, she released her first album, Blue. At 14, she won Best New Artist. Her unforgettable ballad, How Do I Live, which you've just heard,

holds the record as Billboard's Hot 100 All-Time Number One by a female artist. She's also received an Ally of Equality Award by the Human Rights Campaign for her over 20 years of support for equal rights. She's turned 40, has launched a podcast, has a new album called God's Work, and she joined me live in the studio on Friday. I began by asking her how it feels to hear How Do I Live. I have such a great respect for songs like that. I mean, that really was woven in and has been woven into the fabric of people's lives

for now generations. I mean, it's crazy to think about. But yeah, now I like to play around with my music and rework things and we've done a reimagined version of that song and it's almost like a prayer and it's just yeah it's it's such a beautiful song really is why did you want to do that I just I love you know whenever you recorded something so young I just have such a different view of it now um and such life experience behind it and I um I like to keep it interesting too for myself or for everyone else and yeah it's just a bit of a different spin on it and what do you think about

the 14 year old who sang it the first time around yeah I know I I wow yeah I have great I have great respect for for that child I mean I was such a child and such an adult too, at the same time, like living very much in an adult world. But I have two step sons that are 19 and 15. And like, not till I saw them in their normal childhood, did I understand like how abnormal what I was doing was because it felt so normal to me back then. But now looking back, it's like, you know, I was a real survivor of so many things and had a lot of guts at 14. Like, I really did. You really did. Yeah.

And that's an interesting word, a survivor of so many things. What have you survived? Oh, my God, this business, life. I mean, you know, it's I love being at 40, you know, in the place that I am. I feel like I'm in a place of thriving instead of just, you know, struggling to survive. And, you know, I've battled, you know, depression and anxiety for many years and been very open about that. And yeah, and we've all been through it these last three years. And it's just humanity. I mean, we're all, you know, we're here experiencing the emotional rollercoaster ride that is humanity. And to feel like you can come through all the ups and downs and then come out of it with wisdom and, like I said, feel like I'm thriving at this moment is an amazing feat. You can tell you're thriving through your new album. Oh, thank you. God's Work.

It's an incredible listen. It's very powerful. You've done so many different genres, country, pop, contemporary, Christian. Talk to me about your new hey, would you come on the record? And everybody was at home. Everybody was like, yeah, sure. So like Ziggy Marley, Ben Harper, Aloe Blacc, Mickey Guyton, Sheely. Sheely is amazing. And yeah, it was, it felt like a real community of people came together that just loved music. I like to say, you know, we really looked at the light and dark of our human experience and the human and the holy of things. And I think that comes through sonically in the record because there's these really tribal, like primal rhythms. And then there's these very ethereal sounds.

So it's kind of the, you know, two sides of the coin. Yeah. When you all listen to the album, it does connect to you sonicallyically you are really transported into a different realm almost so we listen to the single this is spaceship you know it's uh working sonically because it it just brings tears to my eyes instantly. Yours too. Yeah, it does still. I know, look at us both.

I'm also very jet lagged and I'm really emotional right now. Also, it's Woman's Hour, so you're in a safe space, Leanne. Yes, thank you. Safe space. We all shed tears here. You sang it for the first time live last night. I did. I was doing a TV show with Luke Evans that will air next month.

And it was the first time I've sung it live and in rehearsal. I almost lost it at the end. I made it through during the performance. But yeah, it's so powerful. Why is it so powerful? Obviously, you wrote it, you've sung it it but it's impacting me in the same way yeah no I think we've all experienced that you know having it out with God I love that I opened an album called God's Work with this song which is like this whole conversation of just having it out with God and I think you know we've all been in that space where

it's just like I don't want to be here anymore especially these last few years I I think the collective experience we had really informed what I was writing about. And, you know, there's such angst and heartbreak and rage in the song. And at the same time, there's a hopeful, there's a hopefulness to like, then there's humor. I mean, it's like, I'm waiting on my spaceship to come, you know. So in the midst of it all, I think we can, we can hold such complexities of emotion. Now, you talked about surviving and you have lived many, many lives for your only 40 years. You were very open about your struggles with mental health and anxiety because it was after your 30th birthday, you,

you checked yourself into a facility. Yeah, I did. I was, I was exhausted, I think, you know, at 30. And I, I have always had people around me There was, you know, either my ex-husband or, you know, managers and parents and the whole deal. So I'd never really been alone. And I was going through a lot. I was going through a lot of teeth surgeries at the time. I had a bunch of dental surgeries and a lot of pain. And it was just like mental physical anguish and I thought you know now it's time to to get help because I I just couldn't I couldn't go on any longer like that so um because you've

had this huge success at a very young age um and then your your dad was managing you yeah but you actually ended that relationship as your manager that must have been really difficult yeah it was tough my parents got divorced when I was 14 and I went through a lot of struggles with my dad and my record label at the time. And then, you know, it was just one thing after the other. And I never really had time to process it because I was constantly working. So all of that builds up, you know, in your nervous system after a while. And when you never have had time to, like, actually sit with it, it can kill you. I mean, it really can.

And on top of that, you're a young, beautiful female singer, successful in the 90s. Yeah. I mean, the 90s must have been a tough time. You were a commodity. Yeah, exactly. You know, we've left the humanity out of celebrity for a really long time. I think that's starting to change. You know, like people like me that are talking about, you know, the real humanity of what that's behind it. But I yeah, I became you're right, a commodity and the the human kind of got pushed to the side. And you know, we're always as not just as celebrities, but as human beings, we're constantly wearing a mask. And it was like, I just needed to get back, or even to get to who am I, you know, who am I at the core of me? And I think that's what you're hearing on this record is like just the authenticity of I don't want to talk about surface stuff.

Like I'm making music for, you know, to heal my own heart and at the same time help heal others. Because so much is projected onto young pop stars, particularly in the 90s. Britney Spears being the other one. I'm sure people have often talked to you about the parallels yeah i mean i there's a lot there's very much you know a lot there and i my heart goes out to her anybody and you know as a child star most people don't survive it like i i joke but it's true it's like that's been my greatest feat in this life is, you know, surviving up until now. And then, like I said, thriving at this point. So it's it's a rough life to to to navigate. Shall we listen to some more music? Sure. Absolutely. Love this track. It's called The Wild.

Oh, yeah. How many of us have to die before we ever see? So bring up a fellow, my sweet child. So powerful. I'm like, I credit that song to you. Yeah, I mean, you do. I don't know whether we're both just highly emotional to write that. There's an energy in the room. Co-vocals from Country Star, Mickey Guyton,

drumming from the legendary Sheila E. I mean, this is power. She made that song. She really did. What's it about? I think for me, I was reading this book called Mary Magdalene Revealed, and it's the persecution of women throughout the ages. And it just really struck me in the heart of like, you know, being a woman and coming into my own power now at 40

and really wanting to be a voice for that. Like, you know, to reclaim our wild, you know, being a woman and coming into my own power now at 40 and really wanting to be a voice for that, like, you know, to reclaim our wild, you know, they talk about that mask as women, like we've been put in boxes and told, you know, you have to be polite and there's certain emotions you have to push away. And, you know, our sexuality has been, you know, so shamed and it's, you know, it's reclaiming our humanity reclaiming our wild as women and that's um that's the way forward it's the only way forward we are all about reclaiming your wild here on woman's hour that was the wonderful leanne rhymes and we received a text message from maria who said i wanted to share that i gave a cd copy of leanne rhymes is how do i live

to my husband to tell him i was pregnant with our first child. I still love the song. Now to the Qatar World Cup. It's less than two weeks away and has been mired by controversy. Qatar has been criticised about its stance on same-sex relationships and human rights issues. The latest person to speak out about this is the England and Arsenal player Lotta Wubben-Moy.

The centre-back has said she will be is the England and Arsenal player Lotta Wubben-Moy. The centre-back has said she will be supporting the England men's team at the World Cup in Qatar but won't be watching the tournament due to the country's views on women, homosexuality and human rights. It follows lioness Beth Mead who spoke to us here on Women's Hour about this last week. From the minute it was announced I thought I, it's not the best idea. I think, obviously, the way they think and how they go is completely opposite to what I believe and respect. And although I'm cheering for the boys who are going to play football there, I still don't think it's the right place. But unfortunately, money talks and the situation even of the stadiums being built and the amount of people that have passed because of that um it's i mean it's not an ideal situation it's not something

that i will be backing or promoting at all beth mead speaking there suzy rack is women's football writer for the guardian and author of a woman's Game, The Rise, Fall and Rise Again of Women's Football. Nuala McGovern spoke to her earlier this week and began by asking her about the significance of women footballers speaking out this way. Yeah, it's very significant. And I think it's no accident that it is women players that are speaking out more firmly, perhaps,

than some of their male counterparts. You know, they face a lot of the issues much more directly than maybe the men do. You know, in particular, right, it's Qatar, obviously homosexuality. Beth Mead is in an open relationship with her teammate, Biana Mirdama. There's a lot of very open out players in women's football. You know, these players that for their whole lives have fought for the right to play football. And then you see a country where, you know, women can't travel without the permission of their their husband or or or father um and you know these are you know whilst not as extreme situations that they've had to grow up with you know it's a similar battle and have a very you know real visceral relationship to

to the the issues at hand here in a way that maybe the men's players don't quite have it on the same level so So it's an interesting one because, yes, they are more open, definitely about sexuality, some of the relationships that you mentioned there. But I suppose there's always that debate, isn't there, Susie,

about whether people should instead go to the country to try and expose or show that there are other cultures, other ways of living, maybe trying to promote more tolerance by taking part in the tournament. But is that something, do you think, that Lotta or Beth are thinking about?

I think that's something that everyone is thinking about as an option and, you know, maybe where you find the best of a bad situation but the problem is is Qatar are very much using this tournament to enhance their international their their the world's view of them and so they've talked a good talk you know a women's team was founded shortly after the bid in Qatar but that team has played once since and it wasn't a proper team. So it's not, you know, there's been a lot of talk

and there's a lot of, oh yeah, we're going to make all these promises and put all of these human rights conditions in place imminently. But we've, you know, we've known that it's being held in the country for 10 years and a lot of those things still haven't happened. So why are we expecting that after the big showpiece is gone that they're going to be done um i think that's maybe slightly naive and i think russia has woken people up a little bit as well the 2018 world cup in russia you know that was again another tournament where the bidding process was questionable it was part of the um the same process where tatara awarded the world cup too and you know you've got a situation there

where once the football started everyone sort of you know fell in love with the tournament fell in love with the football all of the issues with Russia fell to one side and you you reflect back on that now in the context of Russia and Ukraine and think why the hell did that tournament go ahead um and why was why was Russia able to use that that tournament to really whitewash its reputation to the rest of the world for that month-long period. And I think that's put this tournament in a lot of context as well. Yeah, we do hear that term sports washing, don't we, Susie? Do you think it concerns the FA that female players like Beth,

like Lotta, are more outspoken on this issue than the men's teams? I don't think so at all, actually, because, I mean, for a good few years now, the FA have very much had a very open approach to the press in a way that maybe we hadn't seen previously. Gareth Southgate coming in was a big driver of this, of changing the relationship between the players and the fans through the media. And so there is a lot of freedom for players to say what they think um and speak their mind you know we we were sat with lotta at an england media day with a an england press officer

standing nearby but she was you know completely free and able to say what she thought on qatar um without into intervention so there is very much a respect, I would say, for the players and their voices and much more of a view that we, as the FA, allow them to speak their mind and help them with that process rather than, you know, kind of put them into a box and say, no, you can't talk on this, this and this. I wonder then how, Susie, do you understand the difference, as I see it on the outside, of the outspokenness between the men and women's teams? Yeah, it's different, but it's not completely unheard of that the men speak out too. I mean, you look at Rashford on free school meals or Raheem Sterling on racism, and there are

pockets of players that do do take a stand on things it's I would but I suppose on Qatar specifically yeah it's very difficult isn't it I'd say like partly from what I said before where the the women are more acutely in tune with the issues at stake particularly on homosexuality and on gender equality um so they feel that a little bit more deeply obviously they're not as impacted in that they're not faced with the decision of you know you've got to actually travel to this country and play so there's that too but then also there's the fact that you know women footballers are generally quite activists just

in their very nature because they've had to fight for so long just for the right to be able to play for the right conditions and things so that they almost have had a voice throughout their entire playing career in a way that the men's players maybe haven't had because they've not needed to so then when a big tournament like Qatar comes around where there's all these controversial issues they're maybe not as experienced at raising their voice in that way in the way that the women's players are. But you know you could see a chance. I was just seeing this survey suggesting there's four million more fans supporting female teams

than a year ago. This is according to research for the BBC. Women's tournaments are going to get bigger and bigger. They're going to come up against these issues. Oh, 100%. And I think it will put a lot of pressure on players who, you you know have historically been very very vocal advocates of social change of equality of opposing homophobia and homophobic

laws and you know a lot of them will find themselves in tough situations will a country like Qatar bids to host a women's world cup probably not could they do it from a completely you know kind of reputation building perspective they could try would a lot of women's players refuse to play in that tournament I think that would be highly likely scenario so it's a slightly different ball game because of the nature of being a women's footballer almost making you an activist by default because of how hard you've had to fought to play. So you've got this sort of more activist mindset

to women's football generally, which is very, very different to the men's. And it is a problem that they're going to be faced with repeatedly. Do you think more will speak out just before I let you go, Susie? I think we will see more. And I think this tournament is going to be a little bit different to, say, some of the tournaments of the past that may be being slightly controversial, not just football, but, you know, Olympics and stuff too,

in that I don't think it's going to die down when the action starts. I think, you know, it will only get louder. I think the questions will only get more prominent. And I think the, you know, examples of protest will only get more prominent too. So I think that's an interesting shift in that, you know, there was very little uproar once the tournament

had kicked off in Russia. But I think that's going to look very, very different this time round. And that's going to be an interesting change, I think, in the dynamic of, you know, kind of some of these more political,

social political situations that football finds itself in and footballers find themselves in moving forward. That was Susie Rack speaking to Nuala McGovern. Textile designer Althea McNish was the first Caribbean designer to achieve international recognition and is one of the UK's most influential and innovative textile designers. She left Trinidad in 1950 to come to London to study architecture, but she soon switched to textiles and went on to gain a scholarship

for a postgraduate degree in textiles at the Royal College of Art. Straight after her degree show, her designs were snapped up by liberties. There's currently a major retrospective of her Althea McNeesh, Colour is Mine, at the Whitworth in Manchester. Well, earlier this week, Nuala was joined by Rose Sinclair, lecturer in design education at Goldsmiths University of London, who co-curated the exhibition. She began by asking Rose about the beautiful prints she was wearing in the studio.

I'm wearing Althea McNish Sora or Port of Spain, which is one of the designs reissued by Liberties during the summer. So, yeah, textiles is my world. So I just need to explain it to people. So it's kind of a darker, not as dark as forest green, but then with pink and yellow, very bright, almost a neon pink that pops out. And what does this design say to you? It just says to me the world of colour that Althea inhabited. She said, why not use colour? Why be afraid of it? And the exhibition is that understanding of her use of

colour, this notion that you could, colour was the thing that she said you can't be afraid of it she one of her quotes is black because it has power in it red she loved grey was a non-colour. Grey is a non-colour I agree with her on that one and I did like one quote that I saw everything I did I saw through a tropical eye. Yeah and that is that becomes the thing that when you look at her work she always said that she was homesick and she explores that through all of her fabrics

As Rose pulls a fabric out of a very bright bag but this one. This one's called Gila and it was by Hull Traders and what you can see and well no viewers can't see it but you can let's describe it and it's it's um a mixture of oranges purples blues it just brightens up the minute you hold it it's talking to me of definitely a tropical climate yeah but I'm just thinking about all of that in a very grey England.

Yeah. And she was, if you think about it, we were living in a post-war, new buildings. And the designs that she created actually fulfilled this notion of newness. And when she was interviewed by Arthur Liberty in 1957, they recognised that straight away this woman had this extraordinary sense of colour and snapped up her whole collection on the spot.

So talented. She designed for Queen Elizabeth's trip to the Caribbean, some of her clothes and the fabric for her temporary residence. I love this. The Bachelor Girls Room for the influential Ideal Home Show in 1966. But what is her legacy for you?

Her legacy for me is that she opened the doors for, as a black woman. So as a black woman, she was actually influential in saying that this is where you can be. I've made a point of saying that I could open the doors, I am there. But she's also absent from the many textbooks. So there are young designers out there that will never have heard of her. And going into the space and seeing her, whether it's the William Morris Gallery or seeing her at the Whitworth, they can see that you can have a career. She had a 60-year career in design. And you met her. And I met her.

What was she like? It was like meeting my own grandmother because she was 93 by the time I met her and she just had this amazing sparkle in her eyes. Once she started talking about textiles, it was like she was transporting you back back and she always carried this allen key in her pocket and you know when you go and do the the when you buy furnishing yes and you have that little key that can put things together can drive you crazy you're putting furniture together but yeah but you use

this allen key when you set up a screen print when when you're setting up screen printing, it's like a flat screen. And she would actually carry her Allen key when she went to the screen printers because she knew this stuff inside out. She was that was her thing. Her technical acuity was her thing. And she would actually go behind some of the technicians and actually just tweak her screens. If she didn't think they were quite right when they were getting ready for printing. And whenever she took her Allen key out, she would just start talking about back in the day. screens if she didn't think they were quite right when they were getting ready for printing. And whenever she took her Allen key out, she would just start talking about back in the day and talking about what she was doing or how she felt. And she would just be, you would be transported back 20, 30, 40 years when she started talking about her designs.

And, you know, this is about her designs and her career. But as you mentioned, she was a black woman living through those decades. You asked her about whether she'd ever experienced racism. Yeah. And she's just said, I didn't take no notice of it. She said it was there, but I couldn't take any notice of it because it wasn't going to be the thing that would consume my life. I just loved design and I just had to get on with it. So she could walk into a room of 200 men and be the only woman, but also be the only black woman. And then another woman would join and she said, but then there'd be two women in the room.

So she said her dad told her that they are going to see a beautiful woman walk in the room. You just get on with it. And the exhibition, what can we see? You will see her process, her practice, her designs. They are hung in, I call, they are hung in majestic spaces. So the Whitworth is a massive, it's like going into a big cathedral and being bathed in

colour. Somebody said it's like walking into sunshine. What a gorgeous description. That was Rose Sinclair speaking to Nuala McGovern. That's it from me today. Tune in to Woman's Hour on Monday from 10am with Emma. I'm off to set my wild woman free. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.