Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Leigh-Anne Pinnock, Rescuing seal pups, Tell-all celebrity memoirs

Episode Date: October 28, 2023

Leigh-Anne Pinnock - a name you may know, as a member of one of the biggest girl bands in the world, Little Mix. This year - almost two years since the band announced a hiatus - Leigh-Anne has embarked on her own solo career. She tells Anita Rani about her new memoir Believe, all about her life growing up, what it was really like going through The X Factor and how she found her voice. Ukraine claims it has identified 20,000 children who it alleges have been abducted by Russia since the start of the war. Arrest warrants have been issued to President Putin and his Commissioner for Children's Rights. It's the subject of the latest work from film-maker Shahida Tulaganova, who joins us to discuss her ITV documentary Ukraine's Stolen Children.Lizzi Larbalestier has cared for 139 seals in her home in Cornwall. She also helped set up a new seal hospital with the British Divers Marine Life Rescue, and has just won an animal action award from the International Fund for Animal Welfare. Ruth Birch and Julia Curry are a couple from South Wales. They met as young women in the British Army, but had to leave because of the pressure they were under to lie about their sexuality and conceal their relationship. The stress led to them breaking up, but 20 years later they reunited. They join us to share their story.Britney Spears has been in the news again after spilling personal stories in a memoir. Are women being pressured to overshare in order to sell books? And are men also expected to publicise their personal lives? Nina Stibbe, whose newest memoir is Went to London, Took the Dog, and Caroline Sanderson, Associate Editor of The Bookseller, joins us to discuss. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, where we treat you to the highlights of the past week. Coming up, as Brittany's memoir storms the charts with its revelations about her career, we ask if women are under more pressure to tell all in their autobiographies. We hear from a volunteer who's looked after 139 injured seal pups in her house. They certainly were in the home, much to my husband's joy, because he said, four maximum, four maximum, and they need to stay in the garage. And then, obviously, as the season evolved, they expanded slightly. I know. We're all intrigued to hear more. It's coming up.

Plus, a love story against the odds from military veterans Ruth and Julia. But first, Leanne Pinnock, a name you may know as a member of one of the biggest girl bands in the world, Little Mix. This year, almost two years since the band announced a hiatus, Leanne has embarked on her own solo career and has already released two songs. Her latest is called My Love. Well Leanne has spoken publicly before about her experiences as the only black member of this global band and as a black woman in the music industry and she's now got a new book out Believe all about her life growing up what it was really like going through x-factor and how she found her voice. Well I spoke to her earlier this week and began by asking her

why she decided to write a memoir. I feel like I touched on my experiences in my documentary so Race, Pop and Power but I felt like there was a lot more that I needed to be open about. I think like when you're talking about race such a complex issue like to put that in an hour's documentary and also like I really wanted the documentary to not just focus on my experiences but other black women's experiences too um so yeah I just felt like there was a lot more that needed to be said I wanted to go right back into my childhood as well um and I feel like this journey that I've had of like this self-belief and losing my confidence, losing parts of my character to regain it again. And I really wanted to share that story and hopefully relate to some people and inspire whoever reads it.

It is really relatable. It's very inspiring. So that the audience understand, like, how are you feeling about race? When did it become an issue for you? Because when you read your book, you talk about talk about you know this childhood surrounded by your sisters and we'll talk about sisterhood and how important that is for you um but actually race wasn't a thing it's only when you were in little mix yeah so tell explain how it became obvious to you that you were being treated different or how you were made to feel different yeah so so I went to a multicultural school and my parents when they brought me up they never taught me to they never

said that my race was going to hold me back like that was never a thing and it wasn't till I got put in the group where these things started to happen and it started right from the x-factor and like things like taking away my lines and that sort of like chipped away at my confidence and then like noticing that like like fans were like walking past me and like one fan asked me to take a picture of the like of them and another of another one of the group these little things that kept kept building kept building. And I used to get like anxiety before fan events because I knew that they weren't really there for me. It just became apparent that I was kind of like fading.

And I just felt invisible. I felt like I might not as well not have even been there sometimes. And I think the moment that I realised this is not all in your head, Leanne, was when I went to Brazil. And I performed in front of a predominantly black crowd for the first time. And we'd been touring, we toured the world for, at that point, nine years touring the world. And it was the first time that I felt seen.

I'm like, how? How in all this time are people seeing me? And the crowd, like they chanted my name. And like that was my, and it's the first chapter of the book, that was my awakening. And that was like, yes, like this, this isn't all been in your head, Leanne. And so why did you decide that you needed to talk about it? Because that's quite, you know, putting yourself out there

to use your platform to then speak so publicly yeah I think the fact that I do have this massive platform and a part of the reason I wanted to do the documentary as well because I have this massive fan base that I feel like why not use that to spread this message you know and like I'm raising children now and like I don't want them to have to go through some of the struggles that I've had to face and I just want I think when um like the horrific killing of George Floyd and when like obviously the BLM movement was happening and all of a sudden the whole world was talking about race and I just feel like I remember saying at that time,

I don't want this to just be a moment. It needs to be a movement. It needs to carry on. And I know sometimes with social media, people like talk about things and then they stop. And for me, it's like carrying on that conversation. And I guess as well, that's why I decided to create my foundation, the Black Fund, my charity,

because I just wanted to do something, you know? Like, I'm sick of talking about it and... Nothing happening. Yeah. So, like, full disclosure, Leanne and I have climbed Mount Kilimanjaro together. So we've got history. We do.

We've had lots of very wonderful, intense conversations climbing a mountain. Like, that is a life-changing thing that you go through with somebody when you spend 10 days on a mountain, having to go to the toilet inside a mountain together. Oh, gosh. We don't have to talk about that. But I really so, you know, watching your documentary was amazing and you having these really honest conversations. But also I feel like, you know, you are made to comment about so much stuff. Like it was very public when Jessie left Little Mix and also she talked about the sort of trauma that she

faced and you actually talk in the book about the therapy that you've all had to go through when that happened tell us a bit about that how that yeah um I mean like we were together for so long you know 12 years so if any member left it would have been like it's like a breakup you know like it was really really sad and it yeah a little bit traumatic I guess like sisters you know and obviously it wasn like we are we have this sisterhood and like we stuck together through it um and can we talk about what happened next can we talk about the um accusations of blackfishing oh i know it's difficult so for so for people who don't know what blackfishing is, it's, for some of our listeners who won't know what the term is,

it's the process of white women embodying, borrowing, parroting the aesthetics of blackness. And it was an accusation made of Jessie, who was in Little Mix. And then I suppose it puts you in a difficult position? Yeah, definitely. who was in Little Mix and then I suppose it puts you in a difficult position yeah um definitely um yeah hard to talk about it is it is um I mean I guess I think I read that you said capitalizing on aspects of blackness without having to endure the daily realities of the black experience is problematic and harmful to people of colour. No, it is harmful. It really is.

And I think especially when you look into the music industry, like the pop industry, and like some labels will like support artists that are doing R&B and black music support white artists doing it but not necessarily dark skin artists black artists yeah and I think that's when it gets frustrating um and yeah I think that was something that like I wanted to talk about in like the documentary as well like um in terms of like when you look at the music industry like why why aren't dark-skinned women appreciated like they should be you know and like looking at music like music is driven by r&b and then black music it is all of it and then you look at like people behind the scenes as well and like and me like walking into probably white rooms all the time. Like, why is this happening?

And again, another reason why I wanted to do the doc, because it's just frustrating. And even after I'd spoken about it all, and like I was onto my team, like towards the end of the Little Mix days, like I don't have to face this anymore. I don't have to walk into white rooms. Like, why, you know?

And sometimes I felt like I was literally banging my head against the wall and the last couple of video shoots like it was it was still the same and honestly like it really was frustrating but I feel like now the fact that I am on my own and I can really control this you know and like my team like has to be a percentage black why not I need to see myself I need to feel represented I need to not feel alone is it annoying that you can't just be a you know a singer and a pop star and just get on with your job oh honestly you have to come and talk about like all of this I'm so glad you said that because it's tiring yeah it's so tiring and I mean I could just not say anything but I want to see change

and like through all the experiences that I've had in the group it's like what would I be if I didn't say anything and I didn't try and push for change and I've always been that type of person like even in school like I love debates I love to stand up for for people like I was the one out of my friendship group that would like stick up for my other friends, you know? So I feel like I've always kind of had that in me. So yeah, but I do definitely feel like, like after all of like these conversations around the book

and I'm not going to speak about race for a while because I don't yeah it is it's a lot it really is yeah what's it do to your mental health how do you keep that in check gosh yeah um it is I have therapy and I think there's a lot that I still need to heal from from those days of feeling very less than and invisible and like when you think about all of that and because of the color of my skin like something that like I can't change who I am and being like in this industry and oh gosh yeah it's just a lot but also like I'm here to show other black girls that yes you can do it yes you

can and I'm raising children as well and I need them to know that they can and like I don't want to be the person that keeps bringing up those times you know like I'm ready to move on from from that and after after this book and after everything around it, I am moving on. Yeah. Because I'm owning my power now. I was going to say you're embodying it. Oh, there's so much to talk to you about. I want to talk a bit about Little Mix and where you are now.

So let's go back and talk about just the magic, I guess, because we have seen you become who you are. And it's really interesting that you talk about feeling invisible when you were so visible to all of us yeah from day one you know going to the audition at x factor it's a little mix being created before our eyes it's such a chance wasn't it that the four of you came together because it could have been any number of combinations oh yeah but i think it was fate 100% because how can you put together four girls that just get on so well laugh every day like what you saw was real you know like we genuinely did like do love each other like we are sisters when you think back to the innocence of those four young girls, what do you think about? Gosh, I think about when we walked into the studios. I think it was the first week into the X-Rap Studios and the pap said to us,

see you on this morning tomorrow, guys. As if to say, because the person that got sent home always went on this morning, the next day. So basically saying that we were going to go home. And it was like, oh, well, we showed you, didn't we? Because I feel like we were the favourites to go because people didn't think that girl bands could do well anymore, which is just ridiculous. And we proved everyone wrong. You really did.

When was the first moment you realised we are, we've made it, we're massive? Ooh, I think it was Shout Out To My Ex. Yeah. Yeah, the anthem that changed a lot of people's lives. I feel like it was, we had so many people come up to us, like, this song helped me through this breakup, this song helped me so much. And I think our other songs,

we always wrote songs to inspire people, but that one just kind of traveled um it was just so real and i think there was one time we won the brit for best single for that song and then that night we got a jet i think it was where did we go oh we got we had you're gonna tell me a private jet story uh are you about to say we got on a leo jet but wait wait wait we have been on the jet taylor swiss jet actually oh come on yeah tell me more yeah so we um was taytay on the jet wait we supported ariana no no no sorry so taylor swift brought us on stage uh it was around black magic times

and we performed black Magic with her. And then we got on her jet back to another state. So yeah, that was like, and she even had like towels with TS like embroidered on them, like something else. How was that? Amazing. Gosh. Towels with Leanne printed on.

Come on. I can see it. I can see that, definitely. How difficult was it then to make the decision after so many years and all the success and all the fun and the sisterhood to go your separate ways oh really hard actually um we were still super close and yeah I think 12 years in a band like that's a long time. Like, there was no, like, arguments, you know,

like, we'd all decided that it was the right time for all of us. There's, like, an element of wanting to step out on your own and know that you can do it on your own, you know, and from being in a group for so long, like, there was a desire for all of us to do that. So, yeah, I mean, it's definitely been the right time, but I remember on the last tour as well, like we were saying to each other, are we doing the right thing here?

Should we be doing this? Because it just felt like, I don't know. It's sad. It was sad. Have you broken up or are you on a break? We're on a break. Does that mean you could get back together? Oh my God, yes, of course.

I think there is 100 percent going to be some sort of reunion in the future but we just need to enjoy this time now okay so how how does it been or how different has it been then stepping out as a solo artist gosh it's so different um I think there was always that element of like oh that's my belly, element of anxiety, I guess, from like, how many fans are going to come along with me? You know, like realistically, not everyone is going to come on this solo journey with me. So I think that was like quite a scary thing. Like, how am I going to be perceived? And also it's like going from this machine, you know, like we are used to getting number ones and this and that,

and like just everything is so big. And we came straight from, um, obviously the X factor as well. So coming from that and going straight into superstardom, you know, like there wasn't like this, obviously like we worked really hard,

but we almost kind of just went straight into it. Yeah. People knew you straight away. You were famous overnight. They I'm so lucky for this incredible platform that I've got but I'm still a new artist I'm how you feel starting from scratch it feels it's great and it's amazing because I'm putting out music that really resonates with me it's great music thank you so much yeah and this is just the beginning like two songs I've had really resonates with me it's great music thank you so much yeah and this is just the beginning like two songs I've had yeah um but no it's definitely it's a bit

it's going to be a build and it's going to be growth and yeah I think it was mentally preparing myself for that because I have been in this industry for 12 years so going back to the beginning like yes it is hard but I'm ready. Leanne Pinnock there her book Believe is out now and Jessie Nelson from bandmate in Little Mix that we mentioned in that interview has previously responded to blackfishing claims publicly saying that her intention was never ever to offend people of colour with her video and her song and on the subject of celebrity memoirs stay tuned for our discussion about women writing autobiographies later in the programme. Now, Russia's war in Ukraine continues and has been going on for 612 days. Last Friday,

a United Nations investigation found further evidence that Russian forces have committed war crimes in Ukraine, including the deportation of children to Russia. Ukraine's government claims it's identified 20,000 children who it alleges have been abducted by Russian forces. However, the numbers of those deported is expected to be much higher. Ukrainian officials say the children were forcibly separated from their families, taken across the border into Russia, and have faced efforts to strip them of their Ukrainian identity. Just last week, it was announced that four children were returned to their families

in Ukraine following a deal brokered by the country of Qatar. But what about the other Ukrainian children still in Russia? It's the subject of a new ITV documentary made by the award-winning filmmaker and war correspondent, Shahida Tuluganova. It's called Ukraine's Stolen Children. Well, Emma spoke to her earlier this week and began by asking her when she first heard of Ukrainian children being taken to Russia. I was in the middle of making my previous film, Children of Ukraine, and as autumn last year, reports started coming that some children are being abducted by the Russian troops, especially the orphanages.

And I didn't realize the scale of the problem, but it was alarming already at that stage. Then as soon as Ukraine was deoccupying the territories, like Kherson region and Kharkov region, more and more reports started coming because parents were coming from the saying like we don't have our children. So it's a mixture of orphanages that have been what attacked or? Orphanages were just taken to Russia. Okay. The whole orphanages. And then children taken from families

as well. Exactly. And what's going on around, because just to be clear, some of our listeners may have read reports that certain families have sent their children to safety because there's also that element. Yes. About 4,000 children were sent to Russian holiday camps in October last year. What happened, Ukraine was conducting its counteroffensive in Kherson and Russians were losing the ground. So parents were offered to send their children for rest for two weeks. And then two weeks after, they couldn't bring the children back because the front line has shifted. It was impossible to travel from Kherson to Crimea

and that's how children were stuck there from six to nine months. There are individual stories that you focused on in this film, which I imagine was very difficult to make, also getting access and managing to speak to people. But tell us about Daniel and his mum, Ala. That's exactly the story of Daniel and his mum, because his mum didn't want to send him to the camp. But other kids who went before started sending photos and look how fun it is.

And he persuaded his mom to let him go. He said, it's just two weeks, mom. Then what happened? Two weeks turned into six months. She didn't know how to bring him back. She didn't know how to bring him back. She didn't have any money. Plus, you know, you can't you have to travel to Moscow from Ukraine and then from Moscow to the occupied Crimea. It's a very, very long journey. It's a difficult journey.

Sorry, how old are these children going on camps? Is there a range of ages? It was from 10 to 14. OK. Daniel was 14 at the time. So what happened, the Russian authorities never really offered the Ukrainian side to bring these children to a certain stage or the third country so the parents can pick them up. Instead, what was offered to the children, if you're not being picked up by your parents,

you're going to be sent to the Russian foster care. Which means that you will have Russian nationality and you'll be placed to Russian foster care, maybe somewhere close to Ukrainian border or maybe somewhere in the Far East. And was she able to get her son back? She was able to get her son back because at the time volunteers from an organization called Save Ukraine, they started helping mothers to do this difficult journey. So they paid for it and she brought him back. He was lucky. These women, though, who've gone on these journeys, as you just described, not easy journeys to go on. I mean, what do you make of them having covered this? They are very courageous women because some of

them never left their hometowns. Some of them never been even to Kiev, the capital. So they had to make the journey all the way from their home places to Poland, from Poland to Belarus, and from Belarus to Moscow, and then to Crimea. So the journey takes about seven to ten days. But this is not the main difficulty. The main difficulty is they've been interrogated upon arrival to Belarus, and they interrogated upon arrival to Russia. And this takes from seven to 14 hours, depends. Some women didn't make it. And one of the godmothers who went to fetch her godson, she was actually sent back.

And wasn't able to... She wasn't able to see him. She wasn't able to speak to him. She was just deported from Moscow back to Belarus and then made her journey back. And for the children who weren't sent on a camp, who have just simply been taken, what do you find of them? Is there a particular story that can bring to light some of the work that you've seen and what's happening? There's a story of a woman called Halina. She's not in the film, unfortunately. But in August last year, Russian soldiers just came to her house

and said, we're going to take the son of yours. If not, we're going to kill you and your daughter. So the boy called Seryozha, he was 14, he just went with them. And the next thing, she didn't hear about her son for the whole year up until one Russian volunteer woman,

she was scrolling the website for adoption in Russia, and she saw the name of the boy and the region, Kherson region, so she started looking for the mom. She found the mom, and they managed to bring the boy back, but he was already in a boarding school, and he was already on the way to be fostered. You interview Putin's Commissioner for Children's Rights in this film. What's said? This is the woman who is allegedly responsible for illegal deportation of Ukrainian children.

An international criminal court issued an arrest warrant for her and President Putin exactly on this matter. And how does she explain what's happening? She says that they are actually saving children from the military actions and they give them safety in Russia. She claimed that whenever there is application of the relative, mother, father, blood relatives. Then, of course, they do everything to reunite the families. Whereas we know it's very, very difficult. They used to be more lenient about it. For example, when grandparents were coming, they were allowing them grandparents to bring the child, get the children back. But now they insist on DNA test. So they prove that this is really blood relative of the child and only then they

give the children back. Are children still being stolen now from Ukraine? Yes, in the occupied territories, which is half of Zaporizhia region, eastern Ukraine. In all those areas which are still not under occupation, children are being taken away. And do you know the total number? Does anyone? I think nobody knows the total number. We can only guess because we don't know what's happening in the occupied areas. And just in the last, you know, more than 600 days, though, is this a widespread practice? Is it going further across Ukraine? Because if so, or even if not, I'm just trying to understand, is the strategy of it a psychological thing? Is it psychological warfare as well as the cruelty? It is. Maria Lvova Belova, the Putin's commissioner,

she declined. She said, we don't have a state policy of abducting children. Of course, that's what she will say. But from my observations for the last nine years of the war, because this war really started in 2014. Children were systematically taken away to Russian Federation from occupied Donetsk and Lugansk regions. So I think this is an endemic problem. Because otherwise, why would you come and take the whole orphanage to Russia? So no explanation given as to if this is, you know, denying that this is a policy and no explanation given of those who have been taken. What have happened? You've mentioned a few times here of people with family, children with families. If you have no family, what has happened to those who are in the orphanages?

That's the main problem because Russia states very clearly that they're not going to give orphans back. And the reasons vary. Oh, why would they go to the country which is at war? It's not safe for them, provide safety. This is not Russia's problem. These children, the Ukrainian state is their legal guardian. So they have to be brought back either to Ukraine or to the third country, which will temporarily host these children while the war is going on. What Russia is doing, they're placing these children into foster care. And she, Maria Lvova Belovos herself

confirmed that about 380 Ukrainian children are already fostered in Russia. And they're so far away from Ukraine, which is illegal by the international law. They place them in Far East, in Siberia, wherever the families are. What does the, what do Ukrainian officials say about this? And what do you think needs to be done having followed some of these stories? I think things are changing slowly. I think Russians understand that they're in a deep, deep trouble, even though they deny it, they're in deep trouble with these children. So Qatar is now involved in negotiations with Russia to bring them back. Vatican is involved. There are some things that happen. I mentioned those four children who have been returned.

By the way, these four children, I spoke to Ukrainian lawyers who were involved in the process. The negotiations started in July this year, and the children were returned only in October. So you can imagine how long does it take. Russian Federation is doing everything possible to make this return of the children impossible. As many obstacles, as many documents,

and only then you can bring your child back. Shahida Tuluganova speaking to Emma there, and you can watch Ukraine's Stolen Children on ITVX. Now, can you imagine looking after 139 injured SEAL pups in your home? Well, our next guest, Lizzie Larbalestier, has not only done that, but helped set up a new seal hospital with the British Divers Marine Life Rescue. In recognition of her work, Lizzie was awarded with the Animal Action Award from the International Fund for Animal Welfare earlier this week.

Emma caught up with Lizzie and began by asking her how she fits so many seals into her home. OK, so I live in Perranporth. It sounds a little bit more impressive than it was. We didn't have all 139 at the same time. We had a maximum of six at one time. I mean, otherwise we'd have a massive house and that would be pretty chaotic. But between September and May, during one of the seal pup seasons, we were lucky enough to be the host for Cornwall Seal Hospital. And that was before we had our purpose built facility. And it's important to say other volunteers had done that in the past.

So over the last seven years prior to that, seal pups had been housed in all sorts of places because we just didn't have facilities at the time. So but we were lucky to have them in our garage and Airbnb. Yeah. So and they have them in our garage and Airbnb yeah so and they'd come in the garage they're four in the garage and two and at 1.3 in our air bed and breakfast so we had our standard Airbnb tarpaulin out and made into a mini extension for our seal hospital so yes they certainly were in the home much to my husband's joy, because he said, four maximum, four maximum, and they need to stay in the garage. And then obviously as the season evolved,

they expanded slightly. I'm so sorry to ask, Susan. I promise we're going to keep going on about the amazing work, but I do have to ask, the smell? Does your husband have a point? Well, randomly, yes. I thought it would never smell the same again. And our garage certainly has would never smell the same again.

And our garage certainly has never smelled quite the same. But the Airbnb, we haven't had any complaints since. So fingers crossed, we've managed to completely decontaminate it. There was a lot of tarpaulin involved. There was a lot of tarpaulin. I think, you know, on your website, wherever you advertise your rental, you might have to say it's got a unique odour and we care very much about animals. In all seriousness, though, you've been doing some incredibly important work, a lot of it voluntary. Why do you do what you do? What drives you, Lizzie?

Much like anybody that might consider themselves a coastal person, I absolutely love the ocean. And therefore, there are lots of us that get involved in things like beach cleaning, those sorts of things where it's actually removing items of litter. But I love animals and most of us do. And seals are really charismatic and dolphins, too. And when I found out about British Divers Marine Life Rescue, it was so inspiring the work that they were doing. And then to find out that anybody can get involved in this was amazing. So literally, I could not get involved. And I've just been completely hooked since. And we have a really dedicated team. And they're from all walks of life as well.

So all ages, all different careers or non-careers. There's such a mixture of people that get involved in this, that you not only do you get the joy of helping marine life,'ve also got this real sense of community which is beautiful and and how the injured seal pups do they make a good recovery how how does that work because there'll be those i'm sure listening want to know what what happened so we're we're really lucky that grey seals which is predominantly the type of seal that we have in Cornwall are pretty robust and they do respond very well to rehabilitation so obviously we don't save every single animal that comes into our care and we do lose some but predominantly we have a really high

success rate and even when we're even when an animal doesn't survive we know that everything that we're doing is to reduce its suffering so rather than it having a long drawn out end to its life, it could well be that through our care, we've ended it, allowed it to leave with grace, leave the world with grace. So yeah, it's light and shade. You have a lot, it's an emotional roller coaster. But again, we have real support network with each other that we can check in with each other if perhaps an animal doesn't make it but it's such a joy with the ocean I mean that's that's amazing yes that must be and and not least for your husband when they've been in your house um how do they how do they get injured though what's um what's been happening and and why do they need such help so pretty much every challenge that our seal pups have is human related so whether that is disturbance so people

can be they're so fascinated people want to get close so it can be disturbance of seal pups where people just get too close and the mum gets spooked so they end up getting separated from their mums that can happen with really young seals but also climate change is having a real impact so at the time that our seal pups are at that stage where they're leaving their mums which is only at three weeks old they have to leave their mums and become seals. At that point in time, that tends to be the type of year that we're getting lots and lots of storm conditions. So they're having to fight bigger swell whilst learning how to hunt for themselves and fend for themselves. So they get caught up in that swell, they get malnourished, they get totally exhausted totally exhausted dehydrated get bashed up against rocks

all sorts of challenges that they face that are appear to be indirectly linked to us but it's certainly climate change related and then we have things like net entanglements and currently one of us focusing on is those flying rings the frisbees that have a gap in the middle of them that's a big focus for ourselves at british divers marine Life Rescue and Cornwall Seal Group Research Trust, because those are fascinating to seals, but they can get them caught on their necks. So those flying rings are absolutely horrendous for marine life. So lots of different dangers to navigate.

Yes, and we talked about the new seal hospital with British Divers Marine Life Rescue. It's been reported that the location is secret um why is that so we don't publicize our location because it's not a visitor center so generally we're dealing with seal pups straight after rescue they're in that critical phase where they require quite a lot of care they're really poorly so we're looking for privacy and not visitors coming in and out of their space. They require a lot of rest and they require a lot of care at that time. So we get them through those initial stages of rehabilitation. Then they go on to larger rehab

centres such as RSPCA, West Hatch and Cornwall Seal Sanctuary. So lots of the pups that you see go through those rehabilitation centres will have potentially been at our hospital first, gaining their initial critical care. And it's just about giving them some space and quiet to heal. That was Lizzie LaBalestier speaking to Emma. Still to come on the programme, from the menopause to her marriage, the award-winning author Nina Stibbe

reveals how she decided what to share and what not to share in her upcoming memoir. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free on BBC Sounds. Now to an extraordinary love story. Ruth Birch and Julia Currie are a married couple from South Wales.

They met as young women in the British Army, but both felt they had to leave because of the pressure they were under to lie about their sexuality and conceal their relationship. Until the year 2000, you were not allowed to be gay or lesbian in the UK military. The stress led to them breaking up, but 20 years later, they were reunited and now campaign on behalf of fellow LGBT veterans. Ruth and Jew, as she's known, have just recorded an episode of You Had Me Yet Hello, a new podcast where guests tell their love stories. Emma spoke to them earlier this week

and began by asking Ruth how they first met. It was a relationship that neither of us expected. Our eyes met across hockey sticks and that was it. It was like love at first sight and we knew that our relationship was wrong according to the army and we kept it a complete secret as best we could could we didn't even acknowledge each other on the um where we were in northern ireland and it was so difficult because you have to be two people all the time it's mentally exhausting. Ju what was it like for you conducting a secret relationship? Like Ru said it's like living a double life, being a professional soldier. And we loved our jobs. But the love I had, you know, which I do still now for Ruth, I wanted to share.

Like when you first fall in love with somebody, you want to, you know, tell the world. And we had to keep it secret because of our careers. You know, this is also for people who aren't familiar with this, but I've interviewed a few people on this and I still find it very shocking. But when there's suspicion, when there were suspicions about people and their sexuality, you know, there's treatment that was meted out by the people in charge. And I know you both fell under suspicion at different times. Ju, what kind of treatment did you experience as a result? Well, actually, I had a new staff sergeant

came into the garrison because I was a driver. And the corporal who was in his office at the time said, Ju, he wants you out. He thinks you're gay. No proof there wasn't Emma. So he made my life hell. He put me on the worst driving details like early night, early morning. He stopped me from doing all the sports. I was at high standard. He used to fly me back to mainland England. That was all stopped. And I felt so alone, so isolated. I couldn't

speak to nobody saying I'm getting victimized because my staff sergeant thinks I'm gay. And I couldn't tell nobody I was gay because I would have been thrown out the career I love so much. So I was under pressure to do my job professionally especially Northern Ireland the pressure we had there let alone the pressure to hide my identity so it put so much mental pressure on myself a huge amount and then being you know your job being made more difficult and Ruth also you know that people had raids didn't they, on their stuff? You know, people were suddenly, their belongings were searched. There'd be all sorts of, if there was suspicion, there'd be all sorts of actions, wouldn't there? Yeah, that's absolutely what happened to me.

I came back to my accommodation, to my room. I opened the door and everything was everywhere. All my documents, things had been taken. They'd taken cuddly toys. They'd taken written documentation. They'd taken some of my CDs, Erasure, the Communards. I think they thought that was a thing then. That was it. If you listen to those, you must be gay. And everything was taken. I turned around and there were two Royal Military Police there and they marched me away. And I was taken for interrogation. And I say interrogation, not an interview. And I had light shone in my face. I had no legal representation. And that was on and off for about three weeks, solid.

Was leaving, to keep with you Ruth for a moment, was leaving the military and your splitting up, your relationship, was that all mixed up together? They actually posted you out because they couldn't find any evidence on both of us as such that they could get to stick to dishonorably discharge us or just throw us out. They sent you to Cyprus for six months to split us up and And we used to write to each other every day on the Blueys. And we used to have to write in code because we knew that these were being intercepted. The Blueys are the messaging system in the military. Yes, they are. Yes. Sorry.

I only know that because I've written to my brother-in-law and sister-in-law that way. So there you go. That's why I know. But for those who don't. Fantastic. Yeah. and they're free so um we we made a point then of you know still being in touch but it just got too much because when Jew came back she was still hounded I was still being hounded all the time and um Jew rang me up one day and said I just can't't cope anymore. We're just going to have to finish. And it was such a brave thing that she did. But it absolutely broke me. And both of us then decided on our separate ways that we would leave the military.

We felt we had to before we would dishonorably be discharged. And that was it until over 25 years later, when by some miracle, we caught back in touch again well i mean let's come to that in just a moment if we can because you did leave the forces but you also returned i understand yes yeah that's correct emma um when they got their way they posted me out to cyprus they left me alone no mental abuse I did my job which I love the day I came back to England I was posted in Colchester they went through all my MFO box which was all my um belongings they went through all that uh so I thought oh here we go again. I went to work. I was changing the wheel on the lorry because I was a driver.

And two men came in suits and took me away in front of my bosses, all my colleagues, and took me in a room and interrogated me for hours with all those blueys that Ruth sent me and they highlighted certain sentences and said what does that mean why why did Corporal Birch say that and I said we were just you know friends and waffled on so when I got back everything was uh people looked at me so I knew I had to sign out because I was witch-hunted, my career was over. But the crazy thing is, Emma, because I signed myself out, within then a couple of years, I was still on the reserves service.

I was sent to Bosnia. I didn't have to go, but I left the British Army and the country and our queen. I went, yeah yeah I'm going so I did seven months in Bosnia and they left me alone and that's all I wanted to do is serve my country but unfortunately the tour finished and very humbling experience and back to Sivlian Street and I thought what a waste all that money they spent on me and Ruth professional soldiers years ago and we we were good soldiers because we loved our jobs we loved it so yeah

that's what happened to me I was sent to Bosnian then but if I was thrown out they wouldn't have called me up no and I'm still the same person yeah it's it's it sounds like a time very long ago and it's not um but there is a happy ending if I could put it like that because obviously things things have changed there we go you do if I can fast forward slightly because of your relationship you aren't together for many many years and then you are. Tell us how this happened, Ruth. Okay. It was over 25 years and I'd still been thinking about you. There was something, you know, that was still in my heart. And I was lucky enough to go on a Channel 4 programme called Coach Trip with the wonderful Brendan. And I was on there from the start to finish with a fantastic work colleague called Andy

and he's a veteran as well and we got on like a house on fire and I wasn't very good with IT, I'm still not very good with IT because I couldn't get the camera to work on this either and I had a message on Facebook and I didn't know you could get messages on Facebook so I didn't know you could get messages on Facebook. So I didn't read it for three months. But it was actually from Jew. She got her mate to send a message to me. She just wondered how I was. So when I got it, I said, oh, I'm on the TV. Have a look at Coach Fit. And we started texting.

We text for a couple of times a week. And then we started to ring each other. And after about six months, we actually finally met up. We met up in Porthcawl and we met up in August when the fireworks were on. They have fantastic firework displays down here. And when I saw her walking towards me, it was a particular walk and her smile and it was so incredible it was like all of a sudden oh hello all those all those um all those years had suddenly disappeared and we we were back together again and it was absolutely fantastic you are together now finally yes um

I suppose it's it must be weird, Drew, because you could have had all those years in between. But a way of being, I suppose, together now and what you've been through must make you all the stronger for it. We can't believe it. Even now we say, when we listened to the podcast the other day, we went, who are those two young ladies we're listening about? Did that really happen?

And we just count our blessings. And my wish was, I know it might sound a bit corny to all the listeners, but to meet back up with Ruth and to live with her to an old lady. And what's happened in the past was so wrong. And for all the veterans, but love and light to everybody because there is hope and me and Ruth still love the British army to this day unfortunately just so sad but we lost oh sorry we we we lost what what you can look at is you could say that we lost like over 25 years the army took that away from us but if you start to get consumed by that then it isn't any good

you need to move forward and it's very easy to say that sometimes but we just look at each other sometimes i say we can't believe that we're actually back together again. It's an absolute miracle. And how it happened, you know, is just absolutely incredible. Ruth Birch and Drew Curry. And you can hear more of their story on You Had Me At Hello, wherever you get your podcasts. Now, pop icon Britney Spears has been making headlines this week

with her new memoir, The Woman in Me. It's contained some pretty shocking and upsetting revelations, including having a secret abortion after she and her pop star boyfriend at the time, Justin Timberlake, agreed not to have their baby. In her recent autobiography, Worthy, the actor Jada Pinkett Smith revealed that she knew her marriage to Will Smith was over before he realised. So are female celebrities under more pressure to tell all in their autobiographies? How does that compare to their male counterparts? Well, to discuss this, Emma was joined by the author Nina Stibbe, whose newest memoir, Went to London, Took the Dog, is out next week, and associate editor of the bookseller Caroline

Sanderson. She began by asking Nina how she felt about sharing her life in her memoirs. I have shared in this current book, my new book, I've shared a lot about myself. I made a big change aged 60 last year, and I moved away and I went and lodged in a house in London after living in Cornwall for 20 years. And I started writing a diary and for six months, it was just an authentic diary. I was just writing a diary for me to look back, make sense, etc. And then six months in, my publisher suggested that we publish it and I got a book deal. So I looked back at it at the six months I'd already got. And I thought, OK, I'm going to take all my friends vaginas out because we're all in HRT or not. We're in menopause. So there's lots of detail about my friend Rachel sneezing

on a zebra crossing and weeing herself. Right. Anyway, when I thought, OK, I'll take all that out. But when I took all that out, there was nothing much left because actually that's life when you're 60 um for for me anyway um so I carried on with their blessing I have to say um but it is very revealing but it's not revealing about the breakup of my marriage because I don't think that's my story to tell that's private um but I did I did talk a lot about women's health I didn't set out to write a menopause diary and it isn't a menopause so you've taken some of them out and you've put it back in or you've gone and asked permission have you had to ask permission of said women's vaginas right once you know once I was writing the diary for publication, it felt a little bit different.

I remember being on a mini break with my mum. She won't mind me saying this, by the way, and this is in the book. My mum got some intimate stabbing pains. And I immediately, instead of saying, mum, how are you? Oh, poor you, sit down. I got my phone out and made a note of it for the diary. And she said, Nina, don't put my vagina in your book. And I said, Mum, do you want to be the only person whose vagina isn't in this book? And she said,

is everybody else's in? I said, yes, everybody's. Maybe there's a couple of people with hemorrhoids as well. You're in great company. But people were happy with it. Did you feel pressure, though, from your publisher to put all the stories back in? No, not at all. And we talked about it at length because it was I mean, she didn't want me to be writing just a menopause diary, understandably, because lots of other things were happening. So we thought about it long and hard. But interestingly, Emma, this weekend just gone, I had quite a big review for the book in The Times. And that review bemoaned the fact that I clammed up and I didn't dish the dirt on my marriage. And I thought, oh, well, that's really interesting because this is a woman reviewer. I've written. There's an awful lot of intimate stuff in there about myself, about my mental and physical health and everybody else's and lots of fun as well but she felt sort of cheated

I mean that's that's interesting when we're talking about what you've decided to share and what you've not decided to share because you you drew as you say you drew a boundary is it because your marriage is not wholly yours to write about yes and. And I've got two grown up children who would hate to see, you know, our marriage written about in any kind of salacious way. And also, you know, we've had a perfectly civilised breakup. And, you know, I don't see it as a failure. I don't think, oh, my marriage failed. I think my marriage ended. And, you know, there's more to life than being somebody's ex-wife. Caroline, it's a good time to bring you in at this point from the book side of things, because it has to be said, and obviously you still don't know what's being left out, but some of these books that are making the headlines at the moment don't seem to have anything left out.

There will be, but there are very few boundaries. How does that come about? So when we're talking about memoirs that so to speak tell all um you know telling all is one thing and certainly you hit headlines uh as we've seen with britney spears book but does that translate into sales that's the key question because of course if a book's got juicy revelations in it, then that's great. And we all love that. I mean, I'd be wrong to say that we didn't. But is it enough on its own? I'm not sure. Have we seen books that haven't worked? I mean, because you're talking about it from the selling industry side of things and how well they do and how well they reach people. Have we seen people really bear all and they don't do well? Yeah, I think there are probably numerous examples of that because,

you know, in a sense, it's, well, who really cares? And if you've read all the headlines in the papers before you actually get to the book, and the book's effectively being gutted by the media coverage, and there's nothing of substance left, then you sort of think, well, you feel a bit cheated by a book like that. But if the headlines are a prelude to a really authentic, thoughtful account of somebody's life, or a book, let's say that makes you laugh, because I think that that is common to a lot of the most successful celebrity memoirs, funnily enough. I mean, you've got books by Peter Kay riding high in the charts at the moment, Miriam Margulies. You know, those are kind of authentic books, but also really funny.

So I think a canny reader really wants more than just the juice, as we might call it. I know that there are many types of memoir. And as you're describing, you could be doing it with humour. You could be doing it with a lot of pain. There's different ways of, there's different lenses and skins through which to do this. But for those who really are, and you tell me, I don't know, do you think it is more women who have to or are tempted to really share every detail?

Because even though Nina, I'll come back to you in a moment, Nina, but was talking there about not sharing about her marriage. You know, she feels very happy writing, for instance, about, you know, not only her own vagina, but maybe her mum's vagina. You know, there's a comfort there and that women have led the way in breaking a lot of social taboos. But I wonder what you make of that, whether it is more of a female than male author.

Well, I think that's true about women breaking lots of the taboos. And I think a few years ago, I would have said, yes, absolutely, it is possibly a more female phenomenon. But then I do think that's, I do think that's changing. And maybe that's because there's been more focus on male mental health, for example. But, you know, recent books by, let's say, Rob Delaney, the American comedian, Heart That Works about the death of his son. Matthew Perry from Friends, Friends, Lovers,

and The Big Terrible Thing. That sold very well. I mean, you know, a celebrity story for sure, but a kind of warts and all accounts of his, you know, what the toll it can be to be a celebrity in the Kandakai. Nina, to come back to you, do you ever worry, and I'm asking you this not just as an author,

but, you know, as a member of our society, do you ever wonder or worry about the toll of, not you, but of women generally, and men, as we're hearing, sharing so much that maybe we will look back on it differently. Yeah, I do up to a point if I think about it. But I agree with Caroline. I think a few years ago, it was really up to very brave women who may have gone on to regret it later to start the conversation about things like consent, for instance. And in order to explain the problem with consent, they had to tell quite revealing stories about themselves, painful stories.

And I remember about 10 years ago, there were a lot of very young women writing about, you know, dreadful times in their lives when they were being exploited. But, you know, it's a shame we had to hear them via that process. But we did. And it did start a conversation. And it has been incredibly useful for other women. That was Nina Stibbe and Caroline Sanderson. And Nina's memoir, Went to London, Took the Dog, is published on November 2nd. That's all from me this afternoon. But do join us on Monday morning, where we'll be speaking to sprinter Bianca Williams, who was stopped and searched by the Metropolitan Police in July 2020 on suspicion of having drugs and weapons.

A police disciplinary hearing has found gross misconduct by two of the police officers involved and they've since been dismissed. Bianca joins Krupa Paddy to discuss the impact this had on her and her family. So do join us then. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend. Bianca joins Krupa Paddy to discuss the impact this had on her and her family. So do join us then. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.