Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour - Libby Scott and mum Kym on Autism, the future of the High Street & Anne Robinson

Episode Date: July 3, 2021

The novelist Libby Scott has just released her third novel ‘Ways to Be Me’ in collaboration with the author Rebecca Westcott. Along with her mum she tells us about her new book and it’s realistic portrayal of autism, and her own diagnosis at the age of 10. The presenter, journalist and “Queen of Mean”, Anne Robinson, tells us about becoming the first female host of Channel 4’s longest running series CountdownWe discuss why the future of the high street needs to put women at the centre of its design and overall regeneration. Mary Portas has done a TED talk and podcast arguing for a new approach by business and customers and has now written a book about it all called “Rebuild”. Suzannah Clarke has published new research saying women are responsible for 85% of spending on the High Street and they need to be taken into account in future planning if the downward trends are to be reversed. Eilidh Doyle is Scotland’s most decorated track and field athlete of all time. The Olympic, World and European medal holder had hoped to compete in the Olympics in Tokyo this month but instead announced her retirement from competitive athletics. She tells us about coming to that decision about retirement and why she is involved in a project with Abertay University, where elite athletes and sporting figures share their experiences of unexpected setbacks and coping strategies with people who have been negatively impacted by Covid. And the writer Emily Rapp Black, whose left leg was amputated at the age of four due to a congenital defect, tells us about the instant connection she felt with the artist Frida Kahlo. Her new book ‘Frida Kahlo and My Left Leg’ describes how Emily has made sense of her own life and body. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. On today's programme we'll hear from the Queen of Mean herself, Anne Robinson, talking about fronting the quiz show Countdown. We'll discuss why women need to be at the forefront of all decision making when it comes to the future of the high street. Most of the women in this research said, I still do all the cooking, the shopping, the childcare, looking after older people. And yet they're now professionals. They're expected to be up in top management, aspire to

that. And yet with this change in role, the high street hasn't reflected this. They're too busy, many of them, to get onto the high street. And Scotland's most decorated track and field athlete of all time, Ailey Doyle, tells us why she's retiring from the sport. And the 13-year-old author Libby Scott gives us her take on being autistic. Everyone's different, and just because you have autism doesn't mean you're different in a bad way. It just means you're even better, almost. If you don't have't mean you're different in a bad way, it just means you're even better almost. If you don't have autism and you're listening to this,

I hope you know that it's not a disability, it's not a disease or anything like that, it's just purely a different thought process. But first, Anne Robinson. Journalist, presenter and self-styled Queen of Mean has this week become the first female host of Countdown. Best known for her acerbic style of presenting on The Weakest Link, she became the highest paid female presenter on British TV.

In the 1960s, she was the first young female trainee on The Daily Mail, worked at The Sunday Times and The Daily Mirror, and went on to host programmes from Points of View to Watchdog. Now Anne takes up the Countdown reins Channel 4's longest-running series. She joins numbers guru Rachel Riley and wordsmith Susie Dent to make a formidable female trio. What was it about Countdown

that made her say yes to this particular presenting gig? Because I've always watched it and I love it and it's very authentic and it's not felt the need to jazz itself up to keep up with the times. And it's cerebral. No, I think it's a terrific programme.

I'm just groaning, Chloe. I'm sure you are inwardly groaning at the idea that it is something of an astonishment that a woman is going to be presenting countdown. It's disappointing, isn't it? We've lost that. I mean, why should it be a label anymore that it's females? I said to somebody that they may as well say I'm the first person from Lancashire with an underactive thyroid that is presenting countdown.

But I guess it's an important moment as well and disappointing that we are in 2021 and it's taken this long. Well, I suppose it was just tradition on countdown to have a sort of relaxed guy on it, wasn't it? I don't think anyone was thinking we must have a bloke. Do you think it makes a difference with being with Susie Dent, being with Rachel Riley, having the three of you as women together? Does it change the feel of the programme at all?

Well, it must do. And also I've recorded about 40 episodes. That's 45, I think. And there is one early one where the guest is female and the two contestants are female. So we're an all female group in the studio, which we just thought was quite funny. I haven't urged them to have more female contestants. So if you're really, really good at doing countdown, please apply if you're female. female it seems to we've had a text already

from bridget this morning saying i've heard that you've got anne robinson on this morning to talk about countdown i was one of the contestants a couple of weeks ago when anna just started it was a strange experience i left my brain at home do you remember bridget i do indeed i don't think she did leave her brain at home actually actually. She was terrific. Well, she's obviously putting herself down this morning, but it's good that she made an impression. That's what you do. Yeah. Is that what you think? I think there's still a grandmother's voice in the background

saying, don't think too much of yourself. And why do you think we have that? I don't know. I really just feel that we're wired differently to guys and they come into the world with more self-confidence. Actually, that's not quite true because often in a family growing up, there's a younger sister to, say, two brothers, and she runs rings around them, but somehow in the mid-teens,

she isn't so self-assured. And she's not so self-assured when she gets to work in an office. You know, and she lets... I mean, I think if you go into a meeting, you will find the guys talk about 50% more than women in the meeting. So where do you get your inner confidence from? Or is that just a show? Well, I think there's always a gap between how we present and who we are. I mean, I worry all

the time, which is probably not obvious. But I came from a trading household. And I had a mother who was the main breadwinner, and didn't seem to have any truck with men. And so I didn't grow up thinking it was a problem to disobey. And, you know, she was a great rule breaker. And I suppose she taught us to do the same and not be intimidated. And I mean, people will remember you from The Weakest Link as being intimidating, as being frightening. I mean, that was a conscious decision, was it, to play that role in that way? Well, what happened was when they wrote to me and it was the days of faxes I remember the fax coming in and they said we've got a new

program and we think that you would be brilliant to present it because you'll look as if you know the answers to the questions and you can ease the disappointment as people are sent off. And then when I met real contestants, they were so fusty and competitive that it was pointless being a cheesy game host. So I suppose I just became the person we are in newspaper newsrooms and probably how you are in Woman's Hour when you're not on air. Things like, God, didn't that guest today wear a terrible blouse? I didn't know she put on so much weight. Well, it's interesting you say that.

I want to get on to you as well about the judgments that are made of women on TV and certainly women of your age. But we'll get into that in a minute, because what I want to know is presumably you've not got that weakest link persona on Countdown. It's a different Anne that we see there. No, it's still me. I mean, it's dark and light shades, isn't it? There are some contestants I've met on Countdown that are very cerebral and probably not ready to be teased. And there's been some absolutely brilliant ones

and we have laughed our socks off. And I don't think it's very different from weaker sling you always had to choose and make a judgment on who you could send up and who you had to be quite gentle with always we had a sort of generic um man I used to call Norman on podium one because you'd spread them out so you got pretty girl, middle-aged man. And there used to be a 60-year-old plus on podium one. And I'd say to him almost every time, have you always been so devastatingly handsome?

And it didn't matter what he looked like. He always said, thank you very much. It's that inner confidence that you were talking about with men. Yes. And probably a lack of irony. Do you think if Weakest Link was commissioned today you'd play it in the same way? It has just been commissioned. Has it? Yes it's been commissioned by the BBC with a comedian called Ramesh I think he's called. Oh, Ramesh Ranganathan. Yeah, and it'll be a very different Weecus Link.

And I think it's quite clever, actually, to have a guy doing it and a guy, a comedian, whose approach will be very different to mine. Do you think you'd get away with being like that on TV today? Absolutely not. Why? Well, because, you know, we're in a different age, woke age, where almost anything you say upsets someone. And I wouldn't like to be doing a week of slink with sort of leg irons on and having to worry all the time, we'll have to cut this,

we'll have to cut that. And language has changed and attitudes have changed. So it was very lucky to be able to do it at the time I did it. Let's talk a little bit about being someone on TV. You're in your 70s. I mean, you're known for being immaculately turned out. I'm looking at you now and you've got a wonderful sculpted outfit on. Victoria Beckham. Well, I was going to say, I know you've got a wonderful sculpted outfit on victoria becker well exactly

i was going to say design i know that you have a big designer wardrobe so do you ever feel pressure as a woman in her 70s i'm sure you won't mind me saying that on tv because i know when i've been on tv i found it infuriating when people would talk to me first about my outfit or my hair rather than an interview i'd done oh no. The hair and the outfit's the most important. Really? Yes. Listen, no one's going to listen to what you're going to say unless you look good. If you go on television looking scrappy and looking like a tramp, that's all they're going to talk about. I don't know, I think that I'm very shallow and it's always been hugely important to me to dress well and look good.

It's vanity. Do you think there are the same rules for men on TV? No. When I did The Weakest Link in LA, they used to pay the audience so that the producer could put pretty women on the front row. I mean, there always has been a need for women to look pretty on television. And there's always been women at home saying, she looks a bit ugly. There is an expectation that part of having a woman on television

is that she will look terrific. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just telling you how it is. I mean, I know that you in the past, you've been very open about the fact you had a facelift, didn't you? And you've had cosmetic surgery. Why did you think it was important to be so honest? Well, first of all, I had a facelift in 2004 because I had the opportunity to have it.

And I thought it would make me look better for me it wasn't it was never about this be a way I'll be able to stay on television longer not absolutely not and it wasn't pressure of any kind it was no different to me always wanting to be a size 10 it's I know you have to accept that I am very, very vain and very, very shallow. And before we talk about other things, there's been so much coverage, hasn't there, about the lack of older women on TV.

Yeah. Would you want to see more older women on TV and do you think there are enough opportunities? Yeah. I do think particularly current affairs programmes, news programmes, news producers, I think maybe they feel that if they have a woman over 50 reading the news, she'll have to bring her mobility scooter in with her. I mean, it's part of the saying, will she be pretty enough? It doesn't matter how old John Snow is or Hugh Edwards but we must

have a pretty face if it's a woman. Although I've just checked Fiona Bruce is only two years younger than Hugh Edwards. She's not reading oh yes she is ITV I don't think ITV has got go and look at ITV have they got anyone over? I think Mary Nightingale's 58 I think think. Is she? Yeah. Oh, good. Let's talk a little bit about lockdown, because I know you lived with your family during lockdown, didn't you? You lived with your daughter and her family. No, they lived with me. They lived with you.

I lived with them. They arrived the night before lockdown, and things just didn't stop coming out of the back of their car. Cricket bats, footballs, laptops, dogs, grandsons, and they were with me for 13 months. Wow. But you survived that and it was good. I want to also talk to you about how you've been coaching women on interviews during lockdown and the importance of that.

Just give us a few tips that you would pass on to people. Well, what I was doing on Zoom, these are women, and it was for charity, actually, I'm just interested in. They're women going for non-executive directorships on boards, FTSE 100. And I was very surprised that when I asked, there'd be six on Zoom, and I'd say, okay, tell me what you would say if you were applying for a board you're in front of the board and they'd all say things like um you know i like a challenge i'm full of energy la-di-da-di-da cliche cliche cliche and then we went around like i'd say to each of them tell me something that's really important in your life what's really interesting about you. And one of them said, I'm a banker,

and each of the countries that I do business in, I've climbed at least three mountains in each of those countries to get to know the country. And I said, why aren't you saying that when you go for apply for a board. And so by the end of two hours, two one hour sessions, they had begun to be themselves. And that is what is really important. And I hope, I think I did it for about 12 women in the end, that they've got A, jobs on boards that they want and that the board knows much more about who they were. And I don't think that comes naturally to women, actually. She's no longer the weakest link. That was Anne Robinson. Now, at 13 years old, Libby Scott has just released her third novel, Ways to Be Me, in collaboration with the author Rebecca Westcott. I

know, what have we all been doing with our lives? Along with the hugely successful Can You See Me and Do You Know Me, the three novels feature the story of Tally, who is autistic. The books have been widely praised for their realistic portrayal of autism. Although not autobiographical, Tally's story is partly based on Libby's own experiences of being autistic herself. This latest one is a prequel to Can You See Me and goes back in time to the period just before she gets a diagnosis, age 10. Chloe Tilly spoke to mum Kim and to Libby, who told her about the character Tally.

She's much like any other girl, really. She has her days where she's really happy and funny and energetic, but she also has her down days of maybe being a bit more demand-avoidant or a bit more sort of not feeling as confident a bit more self-conscious about like maybe even about her autism maybe she feels a bit less yeah like confident in herself on some days too you talk about demand avoidance that's something that I know that that Tally has and you write about it in the book so

pathological demand avoidance. Many people listening might not know what that is. So just explain it to us. So it's sort of not having a choice on whether you feel you can do a demand that someone's expecting of you. Sometimes maybe neurotypical people wouldn't actually see as things that they wouldn't actually see as a demand, maybe. They might just see it as an everyday expectation.

But to some autistic people, obviously not every autistic person has this, has pathological demand avoidance. It's sort of feeling that you can't do something expected of you. Not like you won't, not like it know an active refusal of someone asking you to do something but it's actually like feeling that you can't do it and you're like incapable of actually doing it can you give us an example of something that that might be so well anything really like what do you think mom sometimes when she was younger it would just be putting your shoes on to go yeah things like that anything like that even if so it would actually like this is something that can be quite difficult to understand but even if I wanted to go somewhere if I was about you know six or some six or seven and my mum would

say right go and put your shoes on now we're gonna go and I just like just know would come out of me and um but back then my mum didn't know that I I was autistic but I just sort of know and I'm like wait why am I even saying no I say it to myself but and then I just demand I'd be like no no I'm not but it's actually something that I would like to do to go there but it's the way that someone asks me to do it is you know that affects the whole thing and how does that affect life I mean I'm thinking about things like school and stuff like that I mean the way people speak to you I guess is important yeah definitely like the most important thing to me is tone and approach because even the way something is said

even if the wording is the same even though if the way someone says something is more softer, that can open a gateway to me actually doing the thing. But if it's said in quite a harsh and abrupt tone, then that's more likely that I'm going to sort of freeze up and just be like, no. Which is perfectly understandable, to be honest, isn't it? It's about we should all be a bit more polite in the way that we speak to each other. I know one of the things that you write about as well, Libby, is a list of things that Tally likes and doesn't like. And I know that in some ways your life can be a bit like that, can't it?

There's certain things that you feel uncomfortable with. I think, am I right, seams on socks? Yeah, like random things like that. Like the sensory side for me is quite it's quite like drastic because like for example the like even like labels in a top but I actually find that when I'm having more of a stressed day a label or something in my shoe or something like that I feel it more and I've only really discovered that more recently like but actually for me touch is my worst like one so like that for example seams and labels and things like that but things like sounds loud noises which

might affect other autistic people that's not as bad for me it used to be back when I was in year six you know if like an ambulance would come past they would really like stress me out but now I'm a lot better with that like things like really loud motorb past, they would really like stress me out. But now I'm a lot better with that. Like things like really loud motorbikes and stuff, they don't affect me as much anymore. I know that in your books, Tally gets diagnosed at 10. Was it a similar age for you? Yeah, it was. I was diagnosed at 10. And I was actually quite relieved when I was diagnosed because it was kind of like the questions I had asking myself, why am I like this, why am I like this?

It sort of cleared up, I suppose, because I found out that I actually did have a label and I had something that I could sort of look into. Like, if I was feeling a certain way, I could sort of even, like, Google it or something like that, like, how to help this. And I had, like, a label that I could use, kind of, for different situations.

And Kim I guess it must have been a relief for you as well to to see that relief in Libby. Yes it wasn't immediate it took a little bit of time for her to get used to it of course but actually because we talked about the possibility of it before diagnosis and she'd already gone through an assessment procedure locally that and they hadn't followed through with the diagnosis so it had taken about another year to then follow through with the Lorna wing the National Autism Society and we had to go through a private one but we had an exceptional experts there Dr Judith Gould and Sarah Listerbrook. And they took a lot of time over the diagnosis process, a full day almost with myself and my husband and separately with Libby

and were able to talk it through in such a way and give her a lot of resources and support going forward. And I think that really helped her to understand it and come to terms with it. It was a relief because I could instantly see that she had something that she could, well, to understand herself, really. And everyone deserves to understand themselves, don't they? Absolutely. I mean, it's just a basic requirement for us all to get the best out of our lives. I just wonder, Libby, for you, what would you say are the best things about being autistic? Well, I think having a bit of a like boost on body language like

this also might surprise people because there's a sort of a stereotype that all autistic people can't understand body language that's not true for me like I'm actually like really hypersensitive to it maybe even too much at times I can really notice like little things in body language like even with like one of my friends if um if I say something and they say like okay and a bit of like an undertone more of a even more quiet or anything like that I'll be like what's the matter and they'll be like nothing what do you mean but that's like me sort of being me and more I'd sort of dive more deeper than other people would in situations like that and I'd sort of dive beneath the surface and think maybe they do it because of that or something because I overthink quite a lot as well um but

yeah you mentioned there about your friends I just wonder what school is like for you because I know that for some autistic girls particularly when we think about things like masking, that's talked about quite a lot, that there's this real desire to fit in, to mirror. And then in doing that at school, then getting home, it can be absolutely exhausting. What's it like for you? Because as you've rightly said, everybody's very different on this. Yeah. Well, I remember on Twitter Twitter my mum posted this thing that I wrote when I was in Year 6, and it was like I wrote on a piece of paper. When I'm at school, I get crumpled up like a crumpled up bit of paper,

and then when I get home, I can unfold, but the creases are still there like scars from when I've been at school. But, yeah, school is quite a hard sort of subject for me because my attendance isn't very good at school because of the anxiety. Yeah, it's just a very, like, hard thing for me. And, Kim, so many parents with autistic children can identify with exactly what Libby's saying, and it's tough for parents,

isn't it, to make sure that Libby gets the education that she deserves and she has a right to. And you want her to be happy. But I'm guessing it's been a bit of a battle. It is. And, you know, I have to really reflect myself because every morning that Libby says she's not going, I feel stressed. I want to push her to go. And then I'm thinking, but why am I doing this to her? Because, as she's not a choice it's actually not a choice and it's not the fault of the teachers but there is something about the school system as it is at the moment that is not providing ideally the flexibility for these children. I think school needs to be more specific for the different people

at the school because they sort of lay a blanket over the whole thing they're like right we need to be learning this is how you learn this has worked with the other kids so we're going to do this instead of taking like each child's way of like the best way of learning for them and sort of figuring that out and I think that needs to be changed Libby before you go I want to talk to you about your new book and for people who are reading this whether these are children who are autistic or whether they're children who've got friends who are autistic what do you hope they're going to get out of your new book so for autistic people I hope then they that they know there's a that there's always someone going through the same thing as them.

And there's always someone out there that can help you. There's someone out there that will understand you. And, you know, even me, like my Twitter is bloglibby. I'm usually free. If you want to message me about anything, any worries, any questions, everyone's different. And just because you have autism doesn't mean you're different in a bad way. It just means you're even better almost. You're special.

Yeah, exactly. And if you don't have autism and you're listening to this, I hope you know that it's not a disability. It's not a disease or anything like that. It's just purely a different thought process. Libby Scott and her mum, Kim, were talking to Chloe Tilly there and your emails came in.

Darina says, I'm so inspired by Libby Scott and can't wait to read her books. I have a nearly 14-year-old autistic son who sadly is way, way behind Libby in being able to express himself. But hearing Libby gives me hope. Anxiety is a huge problem for autistic people and being able to express it is a big step to healing this. Still to come on the programme, Ailey Doyle, Scotland's most decorated track and

field athlete of all time and author Emily Rapp Black. Now the future of the high street looked challenging before the pandemic but as shops have reopened and some of course not, it's become evident how urgent the situation now is. More than 17,000 chain stores shut last year, and some of course not, it's become evident how urgent the situation now is. More than 17,000 chain stores shut last year, an average of 48 closures a day. This includes the likes of Debenhams, Topshop and Dorothy Perkins. And this week, clothing retailer Gap has announced it's closing all 81 of its stores in the UK and Ireland to go online only.

And we've heard from Asda upping their online game with deliveries set to be offered within the hour. Susanna Clarke is a councillor and chair of Lewisham Planning Committee and she's recently published academic research saying women are the key to the regeneration of the high street economy. And a decade ago Mary Portas carried out a government review into this problem but she's now urging people to rethink their whole relationship with shopping and consumerism and move towards a kindness economy. To that end, she's already done TED Talk and podcast arguing for businesses and consumers to take a new approach, and she has now written a book about it called Rebuild.

So how do we go about rebuilding? When we talk about the high street, we have to understand how our lives have been fundamentally changed and what we've gone through. And we've created a new rhythm now. And we have to look at this new rhythm. We have to, I know we're talking about how women can help. But of course, the stats that we've looked at for decades is that nearly 80% of buying decisions are made by women. And of course, there's been a rise in internet. We've all been locked in, for God's sake, for the past 18 months, practically. So of course, that's been a rise. But I think the most important thing here is what businesses can learn from what's happened. And we need to look at businesses,

in particular, retail businesses, and understand that this consumerism that we've gone through for the past 40, 50 years has been based on one tenet of success, which is growth, growth, growth, growth. GDP, that's all we ever hear. Even if we wake up to the news in the morning, if your business hasn't grown, you're a failed business. Here's the most important thing that I hope we have learned out of COVID. And before that, because of the marches that we've seen, because of the shift that we've seen in people's awareness of what we're doing to our planet and what we're doing to our wellbeing, growth is killing us. So we need to rebuild back businesses that are better, that add, that add and thrive, that add to

communities, that add to society, that create social progress, as well as being profitable. What are we going to be left with? I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I'm going to say there are some people who may have lost their jobs through all this. Many, many people have. And they might be saying, I just need to earn money. How do you get people back into buying this idea of building back better with all these things that you talk about, feelings, kindness? Here's the thing. This is what we get muddled up on.

We believe that you can only have a job and create profit by being a bit of a business that doesn't think about kindness, doesn't think about social progress, doesn't think about people's well-being. That's not true. We can create businesses that do that. Within my book, on my podcast, I talk about those. And some of those have been the most successful businesses that we're seeing. One of the greatest is Patagonia in the States. We've got Lush Cosmetics here. We have The Body Shop. Anita Roddick was banging this drum in the 70s. We as women have the power with every pound we spend to make change because every pound that we do spend is a vote on how we want to live.

And we need to be connecting with brands and businesses that are doing more than just taking. We talk about women as key consumers. Susanna, let's bring you in here because you say the decline of the town centre is rooted in a change in women's lives and shopping habits. Explain that to us. Well, obviously, shopping is women. 80% of the, as Mary says, 80% of shopping is done by women.

They are becoming economically very powerful. Ernst & Young, their research showed that $18 trillion are spent by women around the globe. That's their worth. But yet they're non-existent, non-existent in policy, in all the government documents, the industry documents that I read, all the media and academic research. Women were just not there. They're the missing link on the high street. And there's an awful lot of government policy that impacts upon women. But that impact is onward to the high street. Things like childcare, free bus passes, flexible working, all of these things impact on women's ability to actually go to the high street and spend money. The high street hasn't changed to reflect the needs of women. Women's roles have changed vastly. We're still

doing the roles of the 1950s. Most of the women in this research said, I still do all the cooking, the shopping, the childcare, looking after older people. And yet they're now professionals. They're expected to be up in top management, aspire to that. They're doing more degrees than men now. And yet with this change in role, the high street hasn't reflected this. They're doing more degrees than men now. And yet with this change in role, the high street hasn't reflected this. They're too busy, many of them, to get onto the high street. And this is an opportunity. We've got empty retail outlets galore on the high street. My high street is looking incredibly bleak. How do we capitalise on that opportunity? How does the high street need to change to better reflect the modern woman? They need a reason to go.

Give women a reason to go. The environment of the high street is poor. Choices of shops even, the retail sector, dominated by men. We need to look at the needs of women and design it and involve women in all of the decision-making. The problem is it's done on a siloed basis. We have landlord and retailer. There's a relationship.

And very rarely do you get local or central government coming in. Although I have to say we have an opportunity here to do this. And I do think this isn't going to come from central government because we've been talking about this now for 11 years. And what we should be looking at now is, and I think some other cities are doing this brilliantly, creating what is called the 15-minute city or town centre, which is looking at how the rhythms of our lives

have so fundamentally shifted. Absolutely, the social care that's done, the buying decisions, all of that stuff. Tragically, we're still talking about women taking up 80% of that time. So we have to put their needs at the heart of this, whether it's creches, whether it's social spaces where you can have children work, all the stuff that you probably can't get within your house as well. This isn't just about retail. But more importantly, I love the fact that we need to be looking at how we can create city centres, town centres, local shopping that is feeding the planet and our well-being. So the 15-minute city, we should be looking at this. This should be something

in central government that's saying, how can we have everything within walking distance or cycling distance within 15 minutes? That's what we need to be looking at. Our lives have changed. Even 11 years ago, when I did the High Street Report. Our lives have changed. Even 11 years ago, when I did the High Street Report, it's fundamentally changed. Through COVID as well, we're going to be spending more time at home, which here's an opportunity to recreate local high streets that are fit for purpose. Stats have done, I'm sure you've done much more than me on this, but stats have been done that saying nearly 80% of women and people will talk women are saying, I still want to support my local high street. I love that. It's a social infrastructure as well as a place that I can go and buy stuff from.

That's what we need to put centrally and we need a new vision for the future. But we can't ignore what's happening. The space is moving online. And I'm just wondering, you know, when we talk about convenience, this whole 15 minute round trip, everything done, which sounds idyllic. The convenience of online cannot be denied. How big an issue is this when it comes to reviving the high street? Well, it's an enormous problem, because the online sector is actually supporting busy women's lives. And also people with, you know, older women with mobility issues. Online is useful for them, and we're not enabling women to get to the high street.

Access is a major problem. You know, we have an anti-car policy at the moment, and we're trying to stop people accessing by cars. But for women who are very busy, they have to nip in, nip out. And often public transport is very expensive and also takes a lot more time and it's not accessible for many women. Also older women, they told me that they enjoy going in in a car. It's comfortable, it's warm, you get there, you can go into the high street, carry heavy bags back to your car and you're done.

Saying that we can't use cars is going to restrict women from going to the high street. I had my children go to a dance class near Bromley High Street, just around the corner. I'd leave them because women don't always like shopping with children. And I'd leave them, nip into the high street, grab some food, go shopping for clothes and things, have that wonderful 15 minutes for a coffee by myself without children demanding something. And then I'd go and pick them up. I had a reason to go, but I could concertina lots of my daily routine into that. And also it's that safety element, that edgy feel of the high street in the evening. Women abandon the high street after

certain hours as well. So we need to attend to that. Susanna, next steps, practically speaking? Well, I think the first thing is to look at policy and how it's affecting women. As I said earlier, we need to look at how to enable women. And policy is a big part of that. But the solutions really are to give women a reason to go, to give them access and to feed their needs on the high street. But also, most importantly, is actually to put women in positions of power. Women are not there in the retail sector, in government, in those places where they're going to make impact. We don't have women. And women change policy. You know, I come from Lewisham and in Catford, we're doing a regeneration, but we've really spoken to thousands of people and many women

and they immediately said, we want a greener space, we want a safer space, and then we'd go there. And we've responded. We're now going to have the, we hope, the greenest high street in England. And I think that will pull women back in. It's also going to be a safe space for children. There's not a big road running through it as there was at one time. And the design is based around women's needs. So we're hoping that that work will work. And when you were talking, Mary, about, you know, big business has controlled the high street for a long time, big business run by men very often, but also run by foreign countries. A lot of foreign countries own this big business. What we do need is more independence, more smaller companies coming in,

more smaller local businesses. And to do that, we need to have small units that are maybe bought, like in Middlesbrough, they've bought a section of the High Street and they're going to use it for many different facilities. I think that's a really good... I mean, I did this in my High Street report. If you can get councils to actually own the space, then they can start to create the needs-based High Street for that particular community.

And we aren't talking about... You know, we have to go back to the 90s, some deeply boring High Streets around the country. country turned up at every place, same shop one after the other. And we're sort of grieving that now. Well, we can't grieve that all those names, all those businesses that were just selling us stuff, a lot of them super sophisticated operators, brilliant businesses, most of the men were knighted and got their knighthoods for making so much money and then clearing off. Those days are gone. Thank God.

We've just got this wonderful gap here and an opportunity to look at how we're living. That's all that we need to be. Well, she says that's all. My God, it's a big thing. But that's what we need to be looking at. The way that we're living has shifted. How do we create our high streets for the future that feed the needs of people, humanity and our planet. Mary Portas and Susanna Clarke were talking to Krupa Pardi and your emails came in. Ruth says,

as a woman running a small shop employing six people part-time, five women, and doing all the right local things, don't underestimate the wage costs and rent and rates. We pay minimum wage and I appreciate the living wage arguments, but the wage bill shows signs of closing us down. So how are your friendly green businesses going to pay their way? Or are they all staffed by volunteers? Or really pricey city centre products? Or underwritten by the council, entirely in favour of councils facilitating small units for varied little businesses,

but they can't just be given away for free. And Annie says, The social cohesion that holds us together has been replaced by full-time paid work. The important role women traditionally played in the community has been removed. Men and women need to replace this crucial function. We need to make time to contribute. What do you think?

Get in touch with the programme. You can email by going to our website. You can also contact us via our social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Now, Ailey Doyle is Scotland's most decorated track and field athlete of all time, the Olympic, World, European and Commonwealth Games medal holder, the winner of 17 international medals in the 400m hurdles and relay. She's now taking part in a new project with Abertay University

where leading athletes, coaches and sporting figures such as Judy Murray and Tanni Grey-Thompson share their experiences of unexpected setbacks and coping strategies with people who've been negatively impacted by COVID. I was approached by Professor David Lavely, who started the project. We'd done a little bit of work together previously, looking at some sort of the mental health issues that are going on and he sort of said to me he was wanting to look to see if sport in any way could help some issues with COVID and he he sort of spoken to me about some of the things that I go through with my in my career some of the setbacks

I've had some of the coping strategies I've used and whether I'd be willing to to share these with people who are going through some difficult times with COVID. And I must admit, I was a little bit apprehensive to begin with, because I kind of thought, well, how on earth can I help? How on earth can I, you know, do anything? But I was open to trying to help and trying to do something. So I was put in contact with a gentleman who was suffering from long COVID. And basically, we just had a conversation about what he was going through and I just kind of shared a lot of my experiences a lot of stories that throughout my career that I've dealt with hoping that something might resonate with him hoping something might help him you know give

him some sort of nugget of just some sort of strategy or coping mechanism that might just give him a little bit of a boost and I must admit I wasn't sure anything would help but thankfully you know having spoken to him afterwards, there was some useful information there that was worthwhile. It's interesting that you thought that you didn't have the skill set to help. And yet here you are making a difference. And it really feels like mental health has been a key part of this. Yeah, definitely.

And, you know, I'd like to sort of emphasise the fact that I have no medical background. You know, it is from an athlete point of view that I'm sort of sharing my stories. But I think within sport, we know that the mind is so important. You know, physically, you can be ready and there to compete. But if your mindset isn't there, then the performance doesn't come out. And I think as sports people, yeah, you learn a lot about the mindset. Well, I certainly have in my career of how important the mind is. And like I say, there's a few sort of strategies,

a few things that I use within my sport that are actually relatable to other parts of life as well. And I've just proven to be really useful. And thankfully, they've been kind of transferable to the gentleman I was speaking to about long COVID. Well, it sounds like you're doing some tremendous work the gentleman I was speaking to about long COVID. Well, it sounds like you're doing some tremendous work there. I do want to talk about your career because there have been a lot of life changes for you in the last year.

You welcome your little boy Campbell into the world. Congratulations. You have had an injury as well. You had hoped to compete in the Tokyo Olympics. And then you announced your retirement. Talk us through that decision making process. Yeah I think for a lot of people who probably don't know me I think that it came as quite a sudden decision but for me it's something I've probably been thinking about probably for the last three or four years I remember coming back from the Commonwealth Games in the Gold Coast and

that had been a really great championships for me I got to carry the flag for Scotland and I won a medal. And when I came back from that, I sort of said to my husband, who's actually my coach, I think I'd be quite happy to retire now. You know, I think off the back of that, to kind of go out on a high. And I think as soon as you sort of say the word retirement out loud, it's there and you're kind of thinking about it. But there was always something to pull me back.

And there was always another event or another competition that I wanted to take part in so I kept going and then um I got pregnant in 2019 and the plan was after having my son to try and get back for the Olympics had they gone ahead in 2020 I thought that was a really good target to have to try and get back you know just to get me back physically um and and recovering after birth and, had they gone ahead in 2020, I would have retired after that. But then when it was postponed, I thought, right, I'll just keep training away, keep carrying on,

trying to get back for the Olympics in 2021. But I must admit, my motivation was up and down. It was a bit all over the place. And just within this last year, having everything going on, the appeal to go away and compete to to go to an Olympic Games was very different I didn't have that same excitement about going I didn't have that same drive to go and it was just one day at training my husband sort of said to me why are you doing this and I didn't have an answer and I thought actually I've always done this

because it's made me really happy I've loved it and that's just not quite there anymore and so that day at training we just decided that actually it's time to step away and once I said it I felt this kind of weight off my shoulders I felt this real relief so it kind of confirmed to me that it was the right time to do it. It sounds like you know it's been a year of self-reflection as it has been for so many of us and obviously having your baby has been a key part of this and there always seems to be an emphasis on women continuing to compete and do well once they've had a baby for example we've heard about Serena Williams when it comes to this a great deal what do you say to that? Yeah I think we know we've seen it time and time again that women you know can go away have babies and come back and actually come back even stronger

and faster to compete you know we saw it with with them like say Serena Williams we've seen it with Jessica Ennis and I think if you have that support around you it can be done and and for me I never ever doubted that physically I wouldn't be able to get back I always thought it's going to be how I feel and I think the thing is with with having a baby everybody's experience is very different you know everybody's pregnancy is different everybody's experience is very different. You know, everybody's pregnancy is different. Everybody's labour is different. So there's no guidelines to follow to say if you do this and you follow this protocol, you'll get back to your sport.

Everybody, you know, everybody goes through things differently physically and also mentally. And, you know, I must admit, I kind of thought, you know, if I do retire, am I saying to people that actually you can't come back after pregnancy? But but that's not the case, because like I said, you see everywhere. And I think that's the most important thing to remember is everybody's individual choice. And it's about supporting that, whatever that may be. You sound incredibly confident in your decision, and that's great to hear. Obviously, as part of this decision, you've decided not to compete in the Tokyo Olympics.

And I want to move on to talk about that a bit more, because really, many people are questioning whether there should be the Olympics taking place at all during this pandemic. And of course, it's going to be a very different Olympics there, limited audience numbers, no international spectators you know not being able to shout or speak loudly how is this going to impact athletes performances do you think i think it's going to be a very different olympics i think it's going to be a very unknown olympics i think you know normally you would go into a games and you would know who the favorites were and and you know what countries are going to do well and I think we go into this and it's very much it's it's it's very open because a lot of it will be based on who has managed the pandemic best um and and there could be situations when it starts where people test positive or have to self-isolate so they cannot can't compete and so I think there'll be

there'll be a lot going on you know it'll be very different and, you know, I've been to two Olympics, I got to go to London, obviously been at home Olympics, I then got to go to Rio where I won a medal and so for me those experiences were incredible in different ways. Tokyo's going to be very different and I think for those athletes

that have experienced Olympic Games before, it's going to be very strange, likewise for those who are going for their first Olympics, you know, it's not going to be the norm. So, yeah, I think I think it's just very unknown. I think we're just going to have to kind of wait and see how it all unfolds. Back to you and your future. You've been running since you were nine years old. What next for you? Yeah, well, the thing is, I still love running.

I still love I still love doing sport and so that will carry on although I'm I'm retired I'm retired from sort of being a professional athlete and going away and competing but yeah I will still be still be continuing to train and do that but for me I I love sport I have a real passion for sport and and so I'd like to still be involved in some way or other. I was actually quite lucky when I was pregnant with Campbell I could step away and explore other avenues and so I did a little bit of work with Education Scotland and with Sports Scotland looking at some of the barriers facing young people today with access to sport and I'd like to sort of continue

with that sort of thing and still have an involvement in sport because like I say I just I'm a big sports fan anyway. So although I'm not doing it myself anymore, I think it's really important to still stay involved. Ailey Doyle. And finally, writer Emily Rapp Black felt an instant connection with the artist Frida Kahlo after seeing her famous painting, The Two Fridas.

At the age of four, Emily's left leg was amputated due to a congenital birth defect. In her beautiful new book, Frida Kahlo and My Left Leg, she explores the legacy life and art of Frida, which helped her to make sense of her own life and body. So how did she first come across Frida Kahlo? When I was in high school, my brother brought home one of his college girlfriends, and I saw that she had an art book, and I opened it, and it fell open to the painting, The Two Fridas. And I had this incredible, visceral, bodily reaction that I couldn't explain, but felt palpable and real to me. And as a writer, those are the things that you have to go and explore. At the time,

I wasn't thinking that way. And so I just tried to read everything I could about her. And I went to the actual library. I know, right? Remember that? And went to the drawers and then would find it in the stacks. I looked at microfiche, which I still love to do if it existed anymore. And I just felt there was something going on with the way in which she depicted disability, pain, the female body, her body in particular, that intrigued me.

Yeah, the portrait that you talk about, the two Fridas, shows two different personalities. One is the traditional Frida with a broken heart sitting next to an independent, more modern Frida. You're going to read an extract from your book, which explains how you felt when you first saw it. The first time I saw Frida's painting, the two Fridas, I felt the impact in the intimate landscape of skin between my real leg and my fabricated leg, that small, hard-working patch of flesh

that touches what is connected during the day and disconnected at night. For so long, I explained to people that it was like having two Emilies living in two bodies, one for the day, one for the night. And when I saw the two Fridas in an art book my brother's college girlfriend brought home during Christmas break, I thought, yes, I thought, you see me. I thought, this is true. It was 1991 and I was still in high school. I went to the library and found every book I could about Frida and read them in a quiet corner as snowflakes slowly twisted to the ground on the other side of the window and the sounds of public enemy screeched through my Walkman headphones.

Many of the books mentioned that Frida was debilitated by her pain. They talked about how much and how long she suffered. And yet, all these paintings, all this output, all this art, all this beauty, I knew that pain was not a muse. So what sustained her? The two Fridas was not about suffering. It was about imagination and connection. And that word my parents had started to use with me, self-love, which I was supposed to be practicing and was not. I had no model. I knew no female bodies like my own. It is really beautiful writing.

Thank you. Really powerful. So for the first time, someone who had your leg amputated when you were four years old, you saw someone like you who was creating this stunning art. Exactly. And you describe Frida Kahlo's art as the art of survival. Do you feel the same way about your writing? Absolutely.

Yes. survival. Do you feel the same way about your writing? Absolutely, yes. I think if you have any kind of an experience that's non-normative or any kind of a life experience that people would automatically categorize as tragic or the worst thing that's ever happened to them, I think as a writer you want to create a new narrative and you take back your agency and your power by writing your truth in in in the narrative and in that sense you can't put in a box and so I think that's what my writing has done for me it's also kept me literally alive at certain points um and so yeah survival yes at what points did it keep you literally alive So my son was diagnosed with Tay-Sachs disease in 2011, and he was a baby, and he died in 2013.

And it was, I mean, after that moment of diagnosis, I had my body just cracked, basically, and all I could do was write. And it was the only thing that I could do that didn't feel saturated with just dread and rage and, I mean, helplessness and sadness, you know. So it gave me purpose and meaning. And it allowed me to parent him until his death. And it allowed me to continue to feel like I had a role in the world. You start the book by visiting, you are at the Blue House, the Casazul, Frida Kahlo's house, the residence where she lived most of her life. Talk me through how you felt when you viewed

her legs and corsets, which she turned into works of art. Well, I mean, I didn't know actually that they were going to have her legs in corsets and shoes in an exhibit for some reason. I just I wanted to go to her house. They had just unsealed the rooms where she died. I was also about eight months pregnant, so I was just kind of trying to maneuver around the museum without without a huge amount of discomfort. And when I saw them, I was just, again, I had this moment where I was like, something's happening to me. I can't analyze it.

It's just a feeling. It's something I have to explore. I'm upset. I am disturbed. I'm electrified. I'm angry. Like all the emotions at once, like this big star burst of emotions.

And it took me a while to figure out how to approach that and how to think about it and how to write about it. But yeah, I knew at the moment I was like, I'm gonna have to write about this and have to comb through this because this is how it just, there's no denying this feeling. I mentioned you, you had your leg amputated at the age of four and your body has been shaped by a team of mostly men over four decades what impact has that had on you well uh well I just actually in my um the man who's been making my legs since 1991 just retired and I literally was like I don't even know how I'm gonna live like what what are you doing you can retire. Never. But he actually hired two women prosthetists and gave them the company. And so that's new. It's strange. I mean, it's a

strange relationship. It's incredibly intimate. You know, I owe so much of my mobility to these two people and more than two people, but my last um prosthetist so it's very strange and it's um i i don't know quite how to describe that that um relationship except that it taught me a lot about trust and it taught me a lot about um acceptance in the sense of letting somebody kind of take over and see you in a really vulnerable position. This book is really vulnerable. Yeah. It's honestly, it's, it's, you have to, I've, when I was reading it, I had to kind of just take a moment, put it down, take a breath, reread it. It's, it's so beautiful, but incredibly vulnerable. How does it feel putting it out there and talking about it? It's a relief, to be honest. I mean, I write memoir primarily or have done to keep my sense of privacy, which no one ever believes, but it's true. Because people will otherwise tell me what

my life is like or assume what my life is like. And I don't want to have any part of that. That's not the truth. So in some ways, I think it's the book I wrote for my secret self. If you have a public, a private and a secret self, took me a long time, and I resisted it. But now I feel a lot of relief. And I feel like it's been, I mean, whenever you put a book into the world, it's a strange experience. But this has been a pretty remarkable, actually, Zoom book tour, if that's a thing. And you talk about assumptions people make about you. You were given a round of applause on a flight because passengers assumed that you were a war veteran. Yeah, that was a moment. I mean, actually, yesterday on the plane, there was an actual war vet behind me. And someone was saying,

like, you know, thanks for your service. And I was like, oh, my God. Yeah. But yeah, that was very strange. I didn't actually realize it was happening until after it was over. And then I just like beelined out of there and was like, yeah, it was very bizarre. And Emily, do you think that attitudes and the discourse around non normative bodies are changing? I do and I don't. I think like any kind of group that we're just learning about, we have a lot of work to do. And as long as disability is framed as a disaster or a tragedy, it's a problem.

So I think there is a lot to celebrate in terms of how people with different bodies are viewed, but I also think we have a long way to go. And it really is an astonishing read. That was Emily Rapp Black. Set your watches. Two minutes past 10. Emma's back on Monday.

I'm Sarah Trelevan. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.