Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Lionesses' win & Diane Bronze, Child sex abuse gangs, Michelle Collins, Sara Pascoe, Nicola Benedetti

Episode Date: August 2, 2025

The Lionesses have made history by becoming the first England football squad to win a major trophy on foreign soil, they successfully defended their European title in Basel last night. The match went to extra time and penalties - Clare McDonnell got reaction and reflection from guests including 5Live commentator Vicki Sparks, BBC Sport correspondent Katie Gornall, chief executive of the Women's Professional League Nikki Doucet and star player Lucy Bronze's mum Diane.The BBC has found that five women who were exploited by so-called grooming gangs in Rotherham as children say they were also abused by police officers in the town at the time. One woman says she was raped repeatedly in a marked police car, and threatened with being handed back to the gang if she didn't comply. The BBC's Ed Thomas brings us the story and Clare hears from Professor Alexis Jay who is the author of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sex Abuse and Zoë Billingham, former His Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary.Actor Michelle Collins, best known as Cindy Beale in the BBC’s EastEnders, makes her Edinburgh Festival Fringe debut in Motorhome Marilyn, a dark comedy inspired by Michelle's real-life encounter with a woman Cindy saw in LA. The play reveals the toll of living in the shadow of an icon, exploring failure, ageing and the heartbreaking cost of unattained dreams. Michelle joined Datshiane from Edinburgh to talk about her debut.Hattie Williams lost her mother when she was 18 years old leaving her feeling anchorless and needing to embark on a self-exploratory journey to recover some stability. When she experienced motherhood, she felt that she had achieved that. She told Anita Rani how these experiences inspired her first novel, Bitter Sweet, which she wrote on her maternity leave.Sara Pascoe is a comedian, and her children don’t sleep, her kitchen won’t clean itself and her husband “doesn’t want to be in it”. Sara’s new show - I am a Strange Gloop – is on a UK tour. She stumbles stunned to the stage from the soft play area, with battle-hardened tales to tell on the front line of motherhood.Nicola Benedetti is a Grammy award winning violinist and ambassador for classical music. She is also director of the Edinburgh International Festival, which begins on Friday. In October she’s due to embark on her first solo tour in more than ten years. She joined Clare to discuss the repertoire, and how she will combine solo performances with storytelling, and share a selection of shorter works.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Corinna Jones

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up, some of the highlights from the week just gone. In case you've been living under a rock, the Lionesses made history by becoming the first England football squad to win a major trophy on foreign soil by successfully defending their European title in Basel.

We'll hear from Lucy Bronze's mum Diane. Did she know her daughter was playing with a broken bone in her leg? That's how tough the Lionesses are. EastEnders actor Michelle Collins on making her Edinburgh Fringe debut in a one-woman play Motorhome Marilyn, based on a woman she met seven years ago in LA. Hattie Williams on her debut novel Bittersweet on themes of losing her mother when she was 18 and suffering with depression. Comedian Sarah Pascoe on how parenthood has banished her from the centre of her own life but also given her a wealth of material for her latest tour. Now it's been called the greatest achievement in the history of English football. The Lionesses lifted the UEFA Euros trophy for the second time

in a row. The first time England has ever won not on home soil. The group of women who make up Serena Vigman's side silenced the doubters and came back from the brink time after time, showing such grit and determination throughout. Let's listen to this clip of Lucy Bronze. I've actually played the whole tournament with a fractured tibia, but no one knew. And then I've just hurt my knee today on the other leg. I think that's why I got a lot of praise from the girls after the Sweden game, because I've been in a lot of pain, but that's what it takes to play for England, that's what I'll do.

They know that, I think we inspire each other by playing through things like that and it got us to the end in the end. For those who don't know, a tibia is a shin bone. Well Lucy's mum, Diane Bronze, joined Claire the morning after the night before and she began by asking her if it had sunk in that they'd won. I'm not sure because I don't watch penalties, which I think people have got the hang of. I had my head in my hands and I actually lost count last night. So I was sitting with my head in my hands and I heard everybody screaming and I said, was that it? Has it happened? And my younger daughter Sophie said, yeah, it's all right, it's all right, it's over. Why is it so difficult because obviously Lucy's

penalty in the semi you know it was just so spectacular and the force with which she hit it and the way she slammed the ball down onto the ground afterwards and turned to a team and said that's how you do it she makes she lifts other players doesn't she your daughter? Yeah yeah yeah she does but it's the pressure on all of them, I just, penalties are so hard to do and to stand up and do that and I just have my head in my hands and visualise I was going in and Hannah saving the other ones and just hope it makes difference, but Chloe's was, and I've just seen something this morning, somebody said they were going past a park and they saw some kids and there were little boys going, watch this and they were copying Chloe's style. How does that make you feel? A bit emotional.

Yeah, yeah. It's bigger than football isn't it really, this kind of the impact this team have made. It is, it is. And you know, we've seen it every time and it's a little bit more every time, a little bit more every time. After 2015, it was it was kind of a big deal. And there was a there was a full page advert of little boys pretending to be Lucy Bronze smacking that Norway goal. But this feels like even more because I've had so many people who maybe don't watch football, who have gone out of their way in Crete, in France, they found campsites, all my WI friends all over the place and they're on holiday and they've all managed to find a place to watch the match. That's amazing, it's bringing people, they've brought managed to find a place to watch the match. That's amazing.

It's bringing people, they've brought people to this sport that previously, as you say, didn't have an interest. I have to ask you, did you know your daughter was playing with a broken bone? Yeah. Yeah, we knew all the way through. We've known all the time and we, but we all, but we all saw you because originally somebody said, well, it can't be a fracture because you wouldn't be able to stand up. But she said, I've got a high pain threshold and I can deal with pain.

But then there's lots of equipment and things that they've got. And obviously, we knew the medics had checked it and they knew what they were doing. And so she because you know she did a sports science degree, she reads research papers and things, she knows about injuries that's how she can keep going, that's why she knew how to tape her own leg because it's like she knew that she felt her muscle and she thought if I don't tape this I'm going gonna pull the muscles I need to tape it now. Incredible. There was one point in the match last night where she was thumping her leg and the commentator said there Lucy Bronze goes again trying to fix herself. I mean she has this kind of never say diatody. When did she break this bone? During the tournament? No, no, no, no. It was in June.

Right, okay. So everybody knew about it. How did you feel about her playing with it? It doesn't matter how I feel, it's what she's going to do. You couldn't talk her out of it anyway. No, no, no, no, it's not going to happen. Yeah, so, and the thing is, she knows what she's doing. She knows her own body. And as I say, I trust the medical team. They know they talk with a boat boat and Chelsea knew about it. And the amazing thing is that the medical team all knew about it. We knew about it.

I think a lot of the girls a lot of the girls knew and not a whisper got out. That is incredible. Didn't want anybody else to know. Yeah well no you wouldn't, you absolutely wouldn't. I understand and correct me if I'm wrong Lucy's middle name is Tuff. Well that's my maiden name so in Portugal that's what you do. So I was born my original name so I'm Diane tough bronze because when you get married in Portugal, you just add your husband's name You keep your own and add his so all of my children are tough bronze tough problems. That's just incredible And there couldn't be a more appropriate name. What do you think she's done for the sport?

What do you think she's done for her teammates? What do you think she's done for the country? sports, what do you think she's done for her teammates, what do you think she's done for the country? I would like to think she inspires them just to enjoy what they're doing and be the best that they can at whatever they enjoy because that's what it's about. She plays football because it makes her happy and that's what it's always been. That was why right back in the day we sort of went out of our way to drive an hour each way because that was the nearest place she could go because and obviously it's come out now about her autism, her difficulties, her shyness and things like that but the one time that you could be sure she was happy was when she was running down a football pitch so we

were going to take her to that and get her there. What is next for Lucy then? Did she give you any thoughts about what's next for her? Recover and go again. Yeah, that's it. She's not going anywhere. She's staying on the football pitch. Yeah, recovering. Well, I think Serena had it right. She's going to have to get her off the pitch in a wheelchair. The very proud Diane Bronze there. And if you'd like to listen back to that programme, then remember you can listen to all the programs that you've missed during the

week just go to BBC Sounds. Now to a story you might find distressing and if you have children listening you may wish to turn down the radio. The BBC has found that five women who were exploited by so-called grooming gangs in Rotherham as children say they were also abused by police officers in the town at the time. Some while still in their early teens. One woman says she was raped repeatedly in a marked police car and threatened with being handed back to the gang if she didn't comply. These women's testimonies, shared with the BBC and gathered by specialist child abuse lawyers, include claims of sexual violence, drug trafficking and police collusion.

Claire MacDonald was joined by Professor Alexis Jay, the author of landmark reports and Fire and Rescue for 12 years and author of the 2017 report Shining a Light on Betrayal, Abuse of Position for a Sexual Purpose. But first Claire spoke to the BBC's UK editor Ed Thomas. This is information from the 30 witness accounts that we have seen at the BBC. It details years of abuse from serving police officers from the mid-90s to early 2000s at the same time as these women as children were being exploited by Rotherham grooming gangs. Most of the alleged victims were teenagers but some were as young as 11. One woman says a child, as a child, she would hear a police officer having sex with girls in exchange for drugs and money. Another woman says she witnessed a police officer

supplying illegal class-A drugs to a grooming gang and three women in this document described being beaten up by officers as children and one said this happened in a police cell. I know Ed Ed, you also heard from the women, who were, of course, girls at the time. We're calling this woman Emma. She says after she would run away from her children's home, a police officer would track her down, take her to a squat, and rape her.

He were a pedophile, simple as that. Everybody knew about this certain officer and what he was up to. We were only 14, 15. He knew we wouldn't, 15. He knew we wouldn't be missed. He knew we wouldn't be reported. He played on that vulnerability, you know, and that naivety and the innocence that we still have left. Did anybody in authority take it seriously what was happening to you at the time?

I can't go to a copper because they just, well they just said they're lying, they're naughty kids, get them back to their kids' homes. We didn't have a leg to stand on. And I know a criminal investigation is now underway, so tell us how that will work. Yeah, there is a criminal investigation into what South Yorkshire police officers did during the grooming scandal. It is being led by South Yorkshire police.

It is being overseen by the police watchdog, the IOPC. South Yorkshire Police say they're pursuing all lines of inquiry. They say they understand how difficult it is for victims and that there's a dedicated team of detectives looking into this, led by their major crime unit. And what have South Yorkshire Police had to say about all of this? Well, they told us that they're having conversations with the National Crime Agency and the police watchdog the IOPC to make sure victims are at the heart of this criminal justice process. But there is that question outstanding. How can a police force investigate its own officers and in some cases its own former officers? South Yorkshire Police said it was the IOPC

that directed them, South Yorkshire Police, to investigate while the Police Watchdog said there was no conflict of interest and was assured by South Yorkshire Police that none of the investigating team had worked with any of the former officers under investigation. Ed, thank you so much for joining us. The BBC's UK editor, Ed Thomas there. Well, to respond to that, I'm joined by Professor Alexis Jay who led the independent inquiry into child sexual exploitation in Rotherham in 2014. She also led the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse which reported in 2022 and that looked into the ways children had been sexually

abused in England and Wales. Professor Jay, welcome. Thank you. Welcome. Your response to what you've just heard there, the allegations that police were also involved in this abuse. Well, let me say I was shocked when I heard this and shocked particularly at the very serious criminal allegations that have been made. This is not a matter of minor misconduct which is being alleged. It is extremely serious and it has taken far too long to get to this point. And just to say thirdly, I'm very concerned that South Yorkshire Police effectively would be investigating their own, regardless of

whatever guarantees may have been given about the involvement or otherwise of individual police officers investigating it. It's simply not visibly independent. This process, before it starts, must be independent, fair and impartial and I cannot believe that those who have made these allegations will see it as such if South York Chokelis are those who will be investigating what had happened to them. I mean just to reiterate, we heard the statement there from Ed Thomas but the statement from South Yorkshire Police says, you know, it's the investigation being overseen by the Independent Office for Police Conduct and they themselves say we're satisfied, there's no conflict of

interest. South Yorkshire Police say none of the investigating officers had either worked with any of the former officers under investigation or were themselves investigated as part of Operation Linden. So they say it's very much once removed. What do you say to that? I'd say it's not good enough, actually. This must be visibly so, primarily, of course, for those who have come forward to make these allegations but also for public confidence in the police because it simply doesn't appear to be fair that the police force who were with this may or may not have a current according to the allegations would investigate themselves. Let's bring in Zoe Billingham now, former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue for 12 years and author of the 2017 report Shining a Light on Betrayal,

Abuse of Position for Sexual Purpose. Welcome to the programme. Morning Claire, hello Alex. Let's just get your view on that. Do you think it's appropriate for South Yorkshire police to conduct their own investigation? I absolutely don't for all of the reasons that Alexis has given. I know South Yorkshire police today is a very different force to that that was in place 10, 15, 20 years ago, but this does not pass the sniff test does it? How can a police force be given permission to investigate very serious crimes, as Alexis has said? The issue here is not whether the officers in South Yorkshire will do a good job. I have every confidence that they will. The specialist

officers will understand how to deal with crimes of this nature. But it's trust and confidence at the heart of this, and the victims are clearly not trusting that this will be done well and we have to listen to the victims voice in all of this. So absolutely it would be perfectly reasonable for another police force to be asked to come in and investigate independently under the auspices of the Independent Office of Police Conduct and I think that that should happen immediately. We did invite South Yorkshire Police to come on the program this morning and they declined. So you think it should be, sorry just go over that what you just said, was it another force or the

IOPC itself, who do you think should we should hand this over to? So it's a criminal investigation Claire and there will be any number of large forces, particularly metropolitan police forces, probably outside of the region of South Yorkshire, who could come in and do this investigation very readily, very ably. And that would provide that kind of precious bond of trust, at least some chance of that being restored, because this isn't about the competence of South Yorkshire police officers here and now. They're vastly improved to what we've heard about in terms of the harrowing testimony of Emma and Willow. I wouldn't expect to see this in South Yorkshire now, I can't say absolutely definitely, but this is all about trust and confidence in

the system to get justice for these victims after far too long. And what we heard, wasn't it, these young girls were not prepared to come forwards. They were abused because they feared they wouldn't be believed, they wouldn't be listened to, they wouldn't be taken seriously. And we know that that has to change. You seem confident that this police force has changed. What do you base that on? So I did a lot of work in 2019 around shining a light on betrayal and in fact the lead force ironically that had really put in place the strongest

counter-corruption measures, surveillance of police officers who were suspected of making a beeline towards vulnerable victims was South Yorkshire. It was an outstanding force at that point in terms of dealing with these measures. We know that men join police in order to have access to vulnerable victims. And we heard that play out, didn't we, in Emma and Willow's testimony. I remember a terrible case of child rape

where the judge described the police officer who was guilty of the rape of acting as though he'd got the judge described the police officer who was guilty of the rape of acting as though he'd got the keys to the sweet shop when he became a police officer because he could access vulnerable children, he would be going repeatedly to care homes, he could look up the names and addresses of domestic abuse victims who are also incredibly vulnerable. And these women, and I've spoken to many of them myself, knew that if they made a complaint against the police, nobody would believe them. But South Yorkshire, as I say in 2019 when I

did this review, was outstanding and it was devoting resources to making sure that it was on to its officers, it had high standards of vetting in place. So while you can never say never, Claire, South Yorkshire was at that point a beacon force in this area. And just briefly before we go back to Professor Jay, you mentioned tech surveillance. Is it easier then if there is behaviour from certain officers that would raise flags? How does tech help spot that? So there's a number of ways. I won't go into too much detail, but an obvious thing that forces track is where their police officers are. Are police officers repeatedly going to a care home

or the home of a domestic abuse victim? Are they going into the system and checking up on particular cases which involves vulnerable victims and now we have IT surveillance counter corruption measures in place which means that police officers phones can be screened and checked and all of that's important is kind of having that sort of safety net to protect victims against corrupt police officers. But the real issue here Claire is people like this should not be getting into policing in the first place. There should be really high standards of vetting in place and we should be asking ourselves as a society what sort of motivations, what sort of conduct that we do expect to see in our police and we should be raising the bar. Professor Jay your investigation into child sexual abuse for Rotherham Council, that concluded

in 2014. Since then you went on to lead the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse. That looked at sexual abuse primarily in institutional settings across the UK. Do you feel it's possible or even likely there will be cases of this, what we're talking about today elsewhere in the country? Well of course I would hope not but I would never underestimate the power of one of our main findings which is institutions almost always act to protect themselves and therefore it may be have occurred. I hope if it did it was it is not current. I don't know that of course. But we definitely know that anything like this is always under reported for the reasons that we have heard about from Zoe.

The fear of something worse happening and the embarrassment and shame that accompanies it for children. We are talking about children here from the age of 11 back in 2013, 14 when I did the work and that's as extraordinary that they were being treated like this. At that time it was the case that there was a great deal, we didn't use the term victim blaming, but that's what was going on in Rotterdam at the time. And that continues in some of the work that we carried out in the public inquiry on child sexual exploitation. It was still in evidence. Victim blaming has to be eradicated. In 2013-14 in Rotherham, the police, frontline police, certainly not all of them of course, but we did

understand that they considered girls principally, but not only girls, to at the age of 11 or 12 to be consensual in their own rape. It's just even hard to hear that now, isn't it? I mean, since your investigations, as I say, started in Rotherham 2014, went on to do a much wider investigation into institutional settings. There's been a major report, of course, the latest by Baroness Louise Casey, and subsequently a national inquiry has been announced. Do you think your recommendations were taken seriously? I know you've always said just act on my recommendations.

What is the progress on them? What stage are we at with them? Well in October of this year, it will be three years since we published the final 20 recommendations. We had 87 others before that, and because we existed as an inquiry at that stage, we were able to track those very diligently, and many of those were met. However, the final 20 were the big overarching issues. Now, nothing happened during the previous government's administration. There was an attempt, a belated attempt to introduce mandatory reporting in the criminal justice bill, but the general election overtook that, so it didn't happen.

But there was no progress on the others. It took some time, understandably perhaps, for this government to start to address these issues. I would say progress is slower than we would like, but it is being made on some of those recommendations. The most important ones concern mandatory reporting of a, we require certain people to report child sexual abuse, we call them regulated, those involved in regulated activity or positions of trust such as priests or sports coaches and others. And we strongly believe that those people should be mandated, required in law to report to the authorities when such things happen. There is progress on that.

There's progress, although it's taking some time, on the proposal for a single child protection authority, which we believe is necessary. But there are others where there needs to be faster progress. Professor Alexis J., Zoe Billingham and Ed Thomas there. Actor Michelle Collins, best known as Cindy Beale in BBC's EastEnders, makes her Edinburgh Fringe Festival debut in Motorhome, Maryland. A dark comedy inspired by Michelle's real-life encounter with a woman known as exactly that. The play reveals the toll of living in the shadow of an icon, exploring failure, aging and the heartbreaking cost

of unattained dreams. Michelle joined Dacciani this week and she began by asking, how did it go? It was good, it was good. It's a preview. And I think the wonderful thing about Edinburgh is, which we kind of forget, it showcases new work. And I think we are allowed to kind of explore and see how it goes. I mean, I was very lucky. I had a full house last night. I spoke to one comedian who had six people in the audience. But I was probably more nervous than her. I mean, I kind of think, you know, am I crazy?

Most people do this at the beginning of their career. Well, I hope it's not the end, but I'm kind of doing it at the kind of the latter end. And I mean, yeah, it's so the end, but I'm kind of doing it at the kind of the latter end and I mean, yeah It must be quite overwhelming You look a bit stunned, but in a good way I am a bit stunned. I am a bit stunned and I'm on stage on my own and I'm talking to a pet python And how do you react to a pet python? Presumably not a real one. The pet python, no, sadly we couldn't get one up here, they wouldn't let us have a real one.

It's very comforting to have my pet python, I tell you. But it's something I think, I don't know, I had to do. I kind of felt like I really had to do this. I've never, I've done a two-hands-up but I've never done a one-woman show. And it's being creative and it's just so, it just feels so creative up here and you know what sometimes you've got to do things that really scare you. And really put, yes, now I know that. At the end of the day, as an actor. And I think we kind of forget that. We get into our comfort zone and we're just kind of riding along and sometimes you

you need to kind of get out of that zone really. Well look Michelle I want to get into what the play is about but but just before we do that tell us how it came about because this is a fascinating story. You were in LA seven years ago. Yes I was in LA and I'd kind of got over there you know a fair bit for kind of work pilot season that kind of thing and I was wandering around kind of got over there, you know, a fair bit for kind of work, pilot season, that kind of thing. And I was wandering around kind of Hollywood, as you do, and I saw this woman get out of this little motor home

and she put some money in a meter by the side of the road. And she had the iconic white Marilyn dress on. And she kind of, you know, swaned off and said hello to a guy that was outside a shop and and then when she went she turned around and I was like oh she's kind of my age that's a little bit okay because Marilyn Diamond she was 36 you know and not to say that you can't be an older impersonator but I was a little bit you know and I said I said, oh, who was that? And he said, oh, that's Moldeholm Marilyn.

She lives in the Moldeholm, and she just drives around Hollywood. And I was just intrigued, never saw her again. And I just couldn't get her out of my head. And I thought I'd write a short film about her, but that kind of didn't happen. And then I decided that I would do a play and I created something.

I spoke to a friend of mine who was a writer called Stuart Permitt, who'd already written for me something which I performed out of the park a few years back. And we got a venue, we were at the Gilded Balloon, we did the poster, I got a co-producer, I'm co-producing it as well. And then COVID happened. So then we tried to kind of resurrect it again.

And Stuart wasn't well at all. He'd really, really suffered with his mental health. And he died sadly last year. I'm sorry. But he gave me permission to, in fact, he left me his entire literary works. Wow. So in fact, I inherited Motorhome Marilyn. And so Josh, my co-producer, said,

what do you think about doing it again, Michelle? And I'd already been in EastEnders for about a year and a half, 18 months or something. We found the most brilliant writer called Ben Weatherill. It's very different from what it was, but it's still very, very good. And it still has echoes of that woman that I saw that first time. And so here we are, and she's now called Denise.

She's called Denise Jarvis. She's from Southend. She went over to LA in the 80s seeking fame and fortune, wanting to become an actress like Marilyn. And for lots of reasons, she had bad experiences with men, she had bad experiences at work. A lot of parallels to Marilyn's life. You know, Marilyn wrote this essay about the wolves in her life, which we also talk about in the play. Predators, she called them. And as we all know, Marilyn did not have an easy life, she didn't have an easy upbringing.

And there are parallels to Denise and Marilyn's life that are quite kind of blurred. And Denise is kind of living in a world where she's been impersonating Marilyn for so long, 30 years. She says, I've been perfecting her for 30 years and I think she doesn't quite know who she is anymore. The line has blurred. Yeah, and she lives a very lowly existence.

She lives in a motor home on her own with this snake and she talks about aging a lot. I know Motorhome Marilyn inspired you to write this play but the story and the content has all come from from yourself so why did you choose to tell this particular story of an older woman lonely impersonating such an iconic figure? You mean is that me? Am I impersonating someone called Cindy Beale? Sorry I couldn't not go without mentioning that name. It's important, you know, I'm a woman of 63 and I think aging is just out there, isn't it? It's about aging and I think it's, we kind of deal with it and as actors we are up against aging all the time.

You know, I couldn't play this as a young girl because I just couldn't. I am 63, you know, and I just think It's it's such a big thing this kind of aging thing and and we're obsessed with with how we look and it's and our lack of self-esteem and our lack of confidence and You know, I'm a I'm very hard on myself I'm a particularly very very hard person myself I'm a particularly very very hard person and I don't know why my director said I think a director must have said something to you years ago that really really did something to you Michelle and

you know your confidence is and I just think it's just something that's really really important that we talk about. Well women can be hard on themselves, can't we? We can sometimes be our harshest critics. Absolutely, our worst enemy. And some people are very good at covering it up. But then maybe also that's, I think you also, you need to have a vulnerability as an actor as well. You have to have a, you know, and for me it's kind of easier

to play those showy roles. But I think showing your vulnerability and your fragility is also very, very important because as a woman we have to show all those kind of facets, you know, and I think we're all so scared to fail anymore, aren't we? We're so scared about what people are going to think of us as people, as actors and with social media. It's all very, very frightening out there. Well no, it's a good point and actually as you were talking, a phrase came to my head that a friend said to me years ago and I always remember it. He said you miss 100% of the shots you don't take and sometimes I just cling

cling to that one thing about what you said, you know, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. But you're talking so eloquently about what it's like for women as they get older and how complex all the emotions and feelings can be but also how people react to you and you mentioned that you were in Hollywood a few years ago as an old woman. Tell us what that experience was like. So this was probably round about that time. I went to see this, I think she was a manager, I wasn't quite sure, no she wasn't a manager because I'd already had a manager anyway and I remember taking my daughter with me, he was quite young and she was being very nice to me and then she said to me, you know what, why do you want to make it in Hollywood? You're quite old

and I said oh I didn't think I was that old. And anyway, and I went away feeling ill. And then she sent this email to my manager and said, would you tell Ms. Collins if she wears that perfume again, anyone will be sick. It was disgusting. When she said, you know, why do you want to make it? You're so old. How did you get over that? I think I said, well, Helen, I think I said something like well hell and Mirren's um a bit older than me And what did she say to that? She probably said but you're not Helen Mirren. I think it really I don't think I went back actually that and whenever I went to LA I got work back in England

And then I I was never that comfortable I went to LA I got work back in England and then I was never that comfortable I always thought you know there's only so much time I can spend in a gym and sitting in a coffee shop really and just waiting and waiting and for what you know. Well look you've recently come come back into EastEnders and you've said recently that TV isn't great for women of a certain age but soaps are different. Yes. Why do you say that? Because there are women of my age on screen. You can see them in your living room.

And I think the writers love writing for mature women. And I think soaps have always had matriarchal figures at the four of their storylines. You know, your original characters, you know, Angie Watts, Pauline Fowler and Barbara. Barbara came back and was a huge Barbara Wood's character on EastEnders. And a lot of the demographic on Soaps are women of a certain age as well. And you know, you kind of think, well... And you can tell those storylines. Yeah, and why can't a woman of my age or Cindy's age, 61, 62, have an affair with a younger man? Why not? Michelle Collins there and Motorhome,

Maryland is playing as part of the Edinburgh Fringe Festival at the Gilded Balloon at 5.30 until the 25th of August. Still to come on the programme, Listener Week starts on Monday. It's the week where every idea is chosen by you. Lots of you have emailed in already but we still need your ideas of what you'd like to cover on the programme so don't delay and get in touch right now. You can text us on 84844, you can also email the programme by going to our website and on social media we are at BBC Woman's Hour. No idea is too wild. Testers go on and dare you. And remember you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live

at 10am during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now Hattie Williams left her education in her teens to pursue a career as a musician but ended up working in publishing for 12 years and now written her first novel, Bitter Sweet. Hattie's mother died when she was 18 years old and she suffered severe depression as a result. When she embarked on motherhood herself, her mental health had to be carefully managed. Because of this, she felt her experience was positive and it, together with her experience in publishing,

inspired her to write her first novel, Bittersweet. Hattie joined me this week and I started by asking her why she wanted to write the book. I don't think I consciously set out with any kind of intention. I think I had this very clear first scene in my head of these two characters Richard who is this incredibly famous 56 year old married author and Charlie this kind of 23 year old very green Publicist who is working on his books and I think so much of writing is really interesting You often don't realize what you're writing about or why you're writing it until you've written it and you read back through it So I think that's been kind of a really, really interesting thing for me. Lots of really good themes in this, a lot mined from your own experience as I said at the beginning. Your main character, Charlie, works in publishing.

Yes. Something you fell into and fell in love with. Tell us about going from a musician and how you stepped into that world. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I kind of left school, I kind of finished my A levels and then kind of went off to music college for a bit and then dropped out and ended up playing bass and rock bands for a really long time and I loved it and had a lot of fun but it was it was chaotic never really had the success that we were hoping for and so one of my bands broke up and I found myself living in London and I applied for kind of admin temping jobs and ended up in children's publishing and did two weeks

of spreadsheets and admin temping and I just fell in love with it so much. I was so enamored by this world so I never really left. And they loved you. They did. They created a job for you. Yeah, they did which was incredible and then I didn't have a degree so they briefly said I couldn't apply for the job but they fought through that. It doesn't work like that anymore they have I think most

publishing houses have now dropped a degree as a requirement which I think is a fantastic thing for them to have done but yes. The other thing that I mean lept out to me I guess you read them and there's things that you can relate to yourself when you're reading a book that stand out and the class divide really stood out for me especially as someone who works in broadcasting yes highly relatable. Something you came up against yourself and you just mentioned and the class divide really stood out for me. Especially as someone who works in broadcasting, highly relatable. Something you came up against yourself

and you just mentioned that you didn't have a degree. Yes, I don't have a degree. Not that it matters. No, no, but I don't know, I think maybe I've never felt like I massively missed out on anything. I got to kind of travel around Europe and be in bands and be creative and live a very free life. So I've kind of always been glad that that was kind of my path.

But yeah, it was, you know, there were definitely certain moments in publishing where I was kind of reminded that I didn't have a degree, a lot of kind of presumption that I wouldn't have read books or, oh, you won't have read that classic because you didn't go to university. Is this this idea that people only read through education which I think is a little short-sighted. Yeah, but your mum was a big reader. Yes, she was, she studied English literature herself and books were kind of always a massive part of us growing up.

Alan Alberg, Janet and Alan Alberg, very kind of... RIP. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, but those kind of early memories of reading with my mother and you know that kind of inspiring love of language and learning to read really early and how much that kind of opened the world up to me and I think that I I always think in thoughts that's I think in thoughts and my thoughts always have kind of a narrative structure I think in words and I think that is so much about kind of learning to read really young and

having that. And Charlie, who suffers with depression in the book, loses her mother at the age of 16. You lost yours at 18. And how was it getting the depression onto the page for you? Yeah. So when I haven't, you know, I haven't felt like that for a number of years so I think actually kind of having some space from a period of illness kind of allowed me a lot of perspective. It flowed really really

easily that kind of element of the story. I think before I had my own daughter which was three years ago just kind of before I wrote the book I wouldn't have been able to write this I wouldn't have kind of been able to go to that place. And although I think I had done all the therapy, I'd, you know, kind of worked through it, actually kind of writing about depression, nurturing that story on the page, really kind of thinking about the narrative that I was giving Charlie was an incredibly therapeutic thing for me. It was also very important to me to write about depression with integrity and to really show what it's like. You know, Charlie doesn't have just, Charlie doesn't have kind of mild mental health problems. She has very serious

mental health problems. She has a lot of interactions with the NHS and the book is kind of set in Hackney. So a lot of that was kind of based on my own experiences. You know, I worked with a psychiatrist to kind of get all of that detail right on the page and really kind of show what interaction with mental health services actually looks like day to day. And so yeah, that was really important to me. And it's been so wonderful to hear from so many readers that have either are in it now or are recovering from it.

And I hope that they, you know, they found a lot of kind of hope in the book that, you know, you can kind of get through things. I think when you're in the depths of despair and crisis you feel like it is never going to end and I think all sorts of things can trigger that with this book. It is the relationship that kind of triggers Charlie's breakdown but it's you know that's what kind of allows her to examine you know the grief and kind of abuse that she's been through in her own childhood. So what changed after you had your own daughter? It was it's a remarkable thing obviously because of my history of depression I was very very closely monitored

throughout my pregnancy, I did a lot of preconception counseling, I did a lot of planning with my specialist, wonderful midwife at the Homerton in Hackney, so you know we did a huge amount of work to make sure that everybody knew around me what you know the early signs would be, how I wanted to be treated if it happened, you know what kind of pathways I wanted to be treated if it happened, what kind of pathways I wanted to follow. And I think all of that put me in a really, really strong position to go into motherhood. I mean, fortunately also, it's a physical disease and postnatal depression, postnatal psychosis, these are actual physical things and I didn't

physically experience that. And what I actually found through becoming a mother is I've just felt this like peace and stability. I think it is part of being a mother daughter relationship again. You know, I've watched all my friends, you know, kind of have these beautiful relationships with their mother, their mothers for so long. And then I had my little girl and I was like, I'm back in this. I think what was so interesting to me is I, I know my mother so much better now than I did before I had my daughter. You know, she's been gone for 22 years, but you know, because she was my mother and I didn't understand what it was to be a mother. Now I am a mother myself. I can, I know her in a better way. And she has your mum's hair, did I read?

Yeah, she has exact same colouring as my mum. It's so funny. I'm a redhead, my husband's dark, she's blonde. She looks astonishingly like my mum and she's got her temperament. And you know, that's beautiful because that's my mother's DNA. Sure. You know, coming through and kind of being passed up, I think it's really beautiful. And you know, I really treasure that relationship with her and it's been incredibly healing for me. Hattie Williams there and the novel Bitter Sweet is out now. And if you'd like information and support

about the issues we've discussed, you can head to the BBC Action Line website. In comedian Sarah Pascoe's last show, Success Story, she was in the loved up phase of recent new parenthood. In her new show, currently on tour around the UK, I Am a Strange Gloop, finds Sarah stumbling stunned from the soft play area to the stage, with battled, hardened tails to tell from the front line of motherhood. Well, Sarah joined Claire this week and she

began by asking her what inspired this new tour. I did IVF and when we started trying for the second one, when the first one was 10 months and I just found out that this embryo had taken when the 10 month old started walking and I was like oh what have I done what have I done the loaf of bread stage is over yeah yeah when they start moving yes and now do you have two that are moving around two moving around yeah very destructively. Yep. That's what they do. That is what they do. So let's talk about the title. I am strange, gloop. Yes. What does that mean?

So I am a strange loop is quite a significant philosophy book about the self that I was reading when I completely lost myself. I was postpartum, didn't know who I was or where I'd gone. And I thought, OK, I'll read this very difficult book about consciousness. And then I had to name my show. And I'm very much in a gloop stage of life, as in that I am covered in it, my home is covered in it, the dog's covered in various colorful things. And I don't feel very solid, actually, as a human being anymore. Do you feel you've disappeared? That's part of your show, isn't it?

Yeah, well, definitely who I was. I didn't have a baby till 40, so I'd had a really long, nice life and my career was quite established and all of that's disappeared. Do you find so it's a new chapter but you're just finding your feet in it or you trying to kind of hang on to elements of the you that you had before? I think that you has gone, it has gone. And my naivety when I was trying for children, because my husband and I tried for a really long time and didn't think we were going to be able to have them, my naivety was thinking that I was in control and what I've discovered is actually you're not. You don't know how you will feel as a parent and you don't know how your children will want you. So I was very naive.

And I mean, my kids were that age but I didn't have social media and in some ways I think would that have been helpful because there's so much advice and then you know you're kind of in these groups that you don't feel so alone because it can be incredibly isolating. How have you found that being in that world? Oh I don't really go on social media actually. I mean, when I do go on Instagram, I get videos for parents who aren't coping. The other day I had a video telling me that you just have to, in any situation, if you want to know how your toddlers will respond, you have to

go, what would a raccoon do? And the answer is, oh, you know, they'll go through the cupboards, they'll make a big mess and then they'll hurt themselves. Yeah, which is probably what you do on a daily basis. Yeah, so maybe that's helpful. But I think actually I know there's a whole like mumfluence, a thing. I think in every aspect, social media is people telling you that they're having a better time than you and that you should buy stuff. And it probably isn't actually that helpful. I think when you're isolated and lonely, which has been a big part of my experience, I think that's very common. Social media makes you think you're being social, but actually it probably has a cumulative quite negative effect, doesn't it?

Thinking that other people are having a better time. So you still feel you've got something to live up to? Yeah, or that you're failing, which is a really common experience, isn't it? Obviously with my show, I'm trying to sort of be funny about it, but really a lot of the through lines that are really similar for parents in general, especially parents of young children is, I'm not doing this very well and I thought I would be having all of this love and bliss in these stages of life and the experience is quite different.

Yeah. So tell us how it's different and how you're using that in your show and why you think it's important to be real about it, funny about it, but real about it. Well, I guess a lot of things I'm struggling with, partly I'm struggling with, oh, is it because I had children in my 40s? I'm so lucky, I'm so fortunate that I had IVF and IVF worked for me, but at the same time I really do miss out on the things that I used to have. And then just like the struggles with my husband, I love my husband, he's my favorite person, my best friend. I don't know how anyone gets through having children with someone.

I mean, in terms of like the housework demands and even like just the language of all of the baby names you have to say for things like, oh, have you packed the bugaboo? Have you got the two feet pegs? I don't wanna sleep with someone after I've used that language. Not really. No, it's infantilising. Isn't it really for both of you?

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and just things like competing needs and having to sacrifice, which again is the parental experience for everybody. And also, I hope that people come to the show and sometimes are really glad they don't have kids. I think that's a big part of it. So it's inclusive, isn't it? Because you made the point, I think I saw another interview where you say, people might listen to this and think, well, I don't have kids. Well, how am I going to relate? But you make it relatable, because I guess we've all been children and we've all had parents.

Yeah, I used to have a line about how and it is still relevant to you, because I want you to understand why it's often seemed that your mom doesn't like you, like she doesn't forgive you. My mom's attitude to me made complete sense when I had one and I was like oh oh that's why she was like I did everything for you, I sacrificed everything and this is how you repay me. Yeah they do hijack your life. Let's go back to your husband then. I mean, you use him, he's a source of mirth in your life

and in your standup as well. Do you relate differently to one another now? Have you found things out? Did you expect him to be a different kind of parent? Where are you with that? Yeah, neither of you know, do you? It is such a leap of faith. You think you know how you're gonna be.

He is an incredible dad. And he's an incredible dad in that very, I think, children, I should be very grateful that actually men are being given different roles and a lot is expected of them, a lot more is expected of them. In terms of communication, softness, being about sharing their own feelings so that the child can understand what they're going through. I think it's so momentous and so amazing how brilliant a dad he is. So I have to say, obviously I don't say that on stage. On stage I say he's too tall and he's massive shoes all over the living room, but he is a brilliant dad to the kids. And you don't know until you do it, do you? You don't know until you do it, but also how is it breaking down? I know you've mentioned the whole kind of drudgery of the domesticityity which goes up to the spinal tap 11 when you have children. Your life kind

of revolves around the functioning of the day today. How's that working out? Well, it's just I'm always wiping stuff. I'm just always wiping and it's Sisyphean. It's wiping a thing you just wiped. And how has it got baked beans on it again? And how is their custard there? And I didn't know we had mayonnaise in the house. Is that mayonnaise? Why is it under the radiator? It's constantly always it's on my clothes, it's on my skin. It's on them. As I said, it's always it's on the dog. I don't know where they find it all and how they make it so disgusting. Yeah, I find you will have to take things to the tip eventually. There's no saving certain items. They just have to go.

Let's talk about you in comedy now. You've been doing it for a long time. You started in your mid-twenties. Where do you think, I mean, we hear so much about what women have come through. We're talking about the lionesses, the progression of women in public life. Where do you think we are with women in the kind of comedy that you do, which is stand-up, which has always been very male-centred? It has been male-centred but audiences changed a lot in terms of they diversified, in terms of what they expected.

And there was a thirst and there has been for over a decade for women's stories. I think that's not just comedy, it's in general, it's happening in books as well. In all of the media we aren minimising a woman's experience anymore. We realise there's a huge range, a huge spectrum of women's experiences, and that's very exciting. But I'm always really wary of going, so ta-da, we've fixed it everyone, let's all give ourselves a round of applause.

There are still issues, but I hope that nowadays, when a girl or a woman decides she wants to go into comedy, she's got so many different role models that hopefully she feels that there is a place for her and there's a path rather than going, oh, I really have to fight my way in or pretend to be something that I'm not. Yeah, or wear a raincoat or something.

Do you ever hear that sad old trope that just women aren't funny? I think it only actually comes up in interviews, which is really... What about that? No, I didn't mean that to sound like I was... Oh my God. But it's because people like you who work in the thing, is that still happening? Very occasionally, maybe a black cab driver, and again, not to stereotype, might say it,

but I know some really, really rich women. And not to say that money is everything, but I know a really, really rich women and not to say that money is everything, but I know a lot of women who've bought houses from jokes. Yeah, there you go. And that's what you say to them when they ask. No, no, I go, I go, it's very hard to be funny when someone's just said something like that. I wish I had a really funny answer because that's what you want. It's good women aren't funny. Try this size.

Not who's there. Funny joke. Sarah Pascoe there and I Am A Strange Gloop is touring the UK until March 29th next year. And as you may have heard, Listener Week returns next week. On Monday we'll be discussing surviving marriage long distance, the difficulties of finding work and the role of AI in recruitment and turning to standup comedy later in life. Remember to join Noola on Monday at 10am. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.