Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour Listener Week: Van Life, Risky sports, Widows Fire, Pets as therapy, Tummies

Episode Date: August 24, 2024

Listener Week is when all the topics, interviews and discussions are chosen by YOU!We hear from listener Siobhan Daniels. She wrote to us on Instagram: 'I would love you to talk about van life and an alternative way of living.' Siobhan is 65 years old and after selling her home and possessions has lived in her motorhome for five years. She joins Nuala McGovern on the programme.Listener Kitty Dowry wanted us to take a look at so called 'risky' sports, and to encourage us all to look at them in a different way. Kitty is a climber; she has been doing it for 10 years and wants to see more women give it a go, even those who might have written it off for fear of it being too dangerous. Kitty joins Anita, as does Hazel Findlay, a professional climber and coach.As part of Listener Week we have been asked by widows to discuss one side effect of bereavement – hyper-arousal, and the term ‘Widow’s Fire’. Nuala McGovern explores these ideas with listener Lizzie, Stacey Heale, who has written a book – Now is Not the Time for Flowers - about her experience of being widowed, and also by the psychotherapist Lucy Beresford, who can shed some light on what might be going on.How one moment or person can change your life’s trajectory. Listener Bettie tells Anita how a childhood invite to a friend's house introduced her to a new way of life -one she says saved her.Listener Sarah Palmer got in touch to tell us about the volunteer work she does with the charity Pets As Therapy. She joined Nuala to talk about how her life has been “immeasurably improved” because of her dog Haggis and the work they do together visiting local hospitals and care homes.Why do so many of us feel bad about our tummies and why are the rounded or wobbly ones never celebrated? That’s what listener Carole wants to know. Content creator Lottie Drynan created the IBS blog The Tummy Diaries and #mybloatedwardrobe and has learned to love her rounded stomach. She joins Nuala McGovern, along with Charlotte Boyce, Associate Professor in Victorian Literature and Culture at Portsmouth University, and columnist Pravina Ruda to discuss our historical and cultural relationship with our tummies.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Sarah Crawley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to a special Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. It's special because it's a round-up of Listener Week. All the ideas for the discussions were generated by you. And I just want to say thank you as the stories made for fascinating listen. Your stories, they were inspiring, heartbreaking and heartfelt.

And you're about to hear a few highlights from the week, but do go to BBC Sounds to hear the programmes in their entirety. In the next hour, we'll hear from Siobhan, who sold her possessions and now lives in a van. And we talk tummies. We'll hear about Siobhan, who sold her possessions and now lives in a van. And we talk tummies. We'll hear about the historical and cultural differences when it comes to how we view our bellies.

Growing up, I was around a lot of women wearing saris of all sizes. And saris obviously mean that you're showing quite a lot of your belly. And I really think that influenced a lot of my beauty standards because I didn't think that you can't have a wobbly belly if you want to put it on show. The often taboo subject of widow's fire, a compulsive desire for sexual gratification after bereavement, pets as therapy, how listener Sarah's life has been immeasurably improved

by her dog, Haggis, and his work as a therapy dog. And we hear from listener Betty on how a significant moment as a child changed the trajectory of her life for the better. And you know the drill by now. No disruptions for the next hour. Just you, the radio, and a cup of what you fancy. Our first guest for Listener Week was Siobhan Daniels. Siobhan got in touch with us on Instagram about her alternative way of living.

Five years ago, Siobhan sold her home and most of her possessions to do something that might appeal to you. She decided to live in a van, a motorhome to be exact, at the age of 60 and has been travelling around the UK for five years. Siobhan joined us from her van, Dora the Explorer, and Nuala began by asking her why she decided to live in such a confined space. Well, basically, I got to a stage in my life, sort of mid-50s, approaching 60, where I felt really broken.

I'd had a brother and sister who'd both died of lung cancer. I was struggling with the menopause. I'd had precancerous cells and had to have a hysterectomy. And I was struggling at work. I felt marginalized and voiceless, something that I know a lot of women, when they get to my age, sort of approaching 60, feel. And so I just, one day I had an incident at work, and I remember going into the toilet and just looking in the mirror

and sobbing to myself, thinking, I want to stop pretending. I want to find pretending. I want to find me. I want to find my happy place. I know it sounds melodramatic, but that's genuinely how I felt. And so then I just started trying to figure out a way of doing it. And eventually I came up with the idea of a motorhome. But where did that come from? And what we do? I don't know, scrolling used cars and went, oh, you know what, I'm going to live in a van. No, I really don't know. I had all these ideas in my head and motorhome wasn't there. And I literally woke up one morning and I thought motorhome. And it was like a eureka moment.

And I'd never holidayed in one, never driven one, hadn't got a clue. But I remember going into work and saying to everybody, that's it. I'm going to get rid of my home, my possessions. I'm going to buy a motorhome. I'm going to hit the road and find my happy place. And that is a big leap, though, because at first I would have thought that you would have kept flat or wherever you were living, rent that out and then maybe do your thing in the van. But why did you feel you needed to go the whole hog? I think also I felt in society, we were working long hours to earn lots of money to clutter our lives, fill our lives with stuff. I had my flat was full of beautiful things and on the surface it looked great.

But I was so, so unhappy and just really going through the motions, just existing to pay bills for all this stuff. So I kind of thought with my crazy mind, if I get rid of it all, and I'm not worried about spending on all this rubbish, then I can focus on finding my happy place. And I've realised after five years, I really don't need much. So how did that feel though, selling up or whatever way it was that you donated, like when the house is gone, clothing is gone the possessions it was it was a bit of sort of hysteria at the beginning I thought it was all absolutely hilarious giving my friends my possessions and they'd come around for dinner and I say you can take this you can take that but when the reality hit in it was scary and my family and friends hadn't a clue really what I was doing. And I remember turning the key in the ignition in the motorhome in 2019, sort of giggling and crying at the same time, thinking,

what the heck are you doing? Where are you going? And I genuinely didn't know, but I somehow had this innate belief that it was going to work out. You know, I've never felt happier. And we'll get into the not knowing how to drive one, for example, and everything that comes with it to work out. You know, I've never felt happier. And we'll get into the not knowing how to drive one, for example, and everything that comes with it in a moment. But can you describe the van? The part I'm looking at,

you have a window, obviously, I think a little kitchen maybe behind you, some cosy cushions. Oh, you've just turned the camera around for me. Why don't you describe fully what you see? Well, I've got microwave, fridge, freezer, my gin bar just there, the all-important gin bar. I've got a fridge freezer my gin bar just there the all-important gin bar

um I've got a kitchen an oven at the back um grill uh through the door there there's a shower full size shower and toilet and then I've got two bench seats which I turn into I don't want to show my rubbish um they turn into beds single beds or they come right across. And I've got two seats at the front which swivel around like armchairs. Which are the driving seat, driving and passenger seat. So, I mean, fairly comfortable by the looks of it. And as I mentioned, people can check it out on the Women's Hour socials. But, you know, immediately I began thinking of, let's take it from brass tacks. You get in, you've put the key in the ignition. Where are you going and how are you figuring out how to manoeuvre that motorhome if it's something you haven't driven before? Well, the dealers were brilliant.

When I first bought the motorhome, they knew they could tell I hadn't got a clue what I was doing. And they paid for me to stay on a motorhome site for a night to get to grips with various things and I did cheat a little bit I did get someone to fill the tank for me and I used my watering can and my bucket to fill the tank for months for ages people used to move their chairs and watch me as if to say what on earth is that woman doing but then someone took pity on me and showed me what to do. And driving it, I got terrified. But my brother Paddy had had a motorhome. So I was forever ringing him up going, I can't do it. I don't know what to do. And he'd be going motorhome helpline and giving me tips. And eventually, I just thought, go my own speed, calm down if there's people behind me.

And I've got to grips with driving it now. And I absolutely love it. And, you know, you're five years in. I mean, you're kind of a veteran van woman now. I am. And I know I'm inspiring loads of other women. I've been taken on by the Caravan and Motorhome Club as an ambassador to encourage older women to have the van life and to, you know, experience the adventures in later life. And it's incredible.

I literally get hundreds of messages from women saying that I've reignited that spark for their 60s and their retirement. And that's what I want to do. Let's talk about the good, the bad and the ugly. OK, the good. What's the upside? I imagine it's that freedom. It's being mistress of your own destiny.

And I through this, I found my voice and my inner warrior, and I'm more courageous about exploring places. So I'll go to parts of the country that I really don't know. I went up to the Outer Hebrides at the end of last year and spent five weeks just going from island to island. And it was just heaven. And I went to island itself and traveled around Southern Ireland for five weeks and spoke to the locals and found places. So I found my courage and I found my sense of adventure and I found me. I really, really I'm living when I was before with all the trappings. I was existing. I wasn't living like many of us do now.

I literally stop and I have my cup of coffee and I sit on the doorstep of the motorhome and I listen to the birds and I feel the wind on my face. Things my mum used to say to me and I'd roll my eyes thinking, oh, for goodness sake. But I'm doing it now and I feel the benefits of it. I go and walk in bare feet on the grass. So let's talk about the bat.

I mean, immediately I'm thinking something you mentioned there, maybe the motorhome place. I was thinking, OK, how do you ensure your safety wherever you go? You are a woman travelling by yourself, possibly to places that there mightn't be

many other people around. I don't know. You tell me. Yeah, I take all the precautions that you would do when I lived in the flat on my own. I've got an alarm on the motorhome. I've got locks that I put on the pedals, metal locks. I've got locks on the wheels. I get the seatbelts, wrap it round the door and then put it in round the seat.

And that stops it opening. I wedge things up against the door. I stay on a lot of certificated location sites, which only take five vehicles. They're not the big sites but they're in lovely remote places and farms and fields but i feel secure staying on those for me staying uh wild camping is one step too far i've done it in scotland because it's geared up for that and especially on places like harris and the outer hebrides you just text the council and you can stay in the most beautiful places but But listen to your gut instinct. If it doesn't feel safe, if it doesn't look good, then move on. Okay, let's get to the ugly. What about, I think I was reading about,

as you were learning the various aspects of van life, you have to do quite a bit for yourself. Some of it may be not so pleasant yeah um the emptying the toilet in fact i put on my tiktok emptying the toilet and i've got 50 odd thousand people who viewed it there's all sorts out there but you're emptying the toilet filling the water and washing it i couldn't wash the roof um and i i actually took it for the first time in five years to a place to get the roof washed and i got told off by the guys yesterday because there was mold and all sorts growing on the roof. So other than that, though, there are not a lot of negatives. What do you miss about the non-van life?

Initially, I used to answer that question with I miss a bath or as my daughter would say, a bar. But I miss a bath, just soaking soaking in it that was always my place I went to when I felt really uptight but more recently because I've been invited to a lot of events with women like Nordic walking or swimming and I see these bunch of women together and their interaction and you think they've supported each other through things like mastectomies or death of children or you know trouble at work and you see the camaraderie in the sport. And I think, do you know what? I miss my bunch of girlfriends that I used to be able to just, you know, go around to theirs with a bottle of wine and sit down and have a good chat or go out on a night out or go for long walks together.

So I miss my bunch of girlfriends. I do see them. They can come to train stations near where I am. I pick them up. We travel for a few days and then I drop them back again. That's lovely. So I do get do see them. They can come to train stations near where I am. I pick them up. We travel for a few days and then I drop them back again. So I do get to see them. You've inspired me, Siobhan. Siobhan Daniels there speaking with Nuala. Now, what's your attitude to risk? Do you do risky things? And what do you consider to be a risky activity? My next guest, a listener, Kitty Dowry, wanted us to take a look at so-called risky sports

and to encourage us all to look at them in a different way. Kitty is a climber and she's been doing it for 10 years and wants to see more women give it a go. Perhaps those who might have written it off for fear it's too dangerous. Kitty joined me, as did Hazel Findlay, a professional climber and coach. And I began by asking Kitty why she loves climbing. I love climbing because it's something that gives you this experience of space, escapism. It gets me away from doing stuff that might not be necessarily in my normal day-to-day life. I think that it gives such a relaxing, calming, supportive environment. It's really, really

accessible and anything that I do when I relocated I joined a club and that enabled me to meet people in a new place where I previously knew no one so it provided that experience of that getting to know people and also just a lovely community that climbing is it's a really really accessible thing to do like there's over 400 climbing walls in the UK so it's super super accessible and you were 17 when you started yes I was yeah and but it's become your life now hasn't it it has become pretty much my life now um I work within the outdoor industry as well so I'm a qualified climbing instructor indoor and outdoors so I work within the industry so you got in touch

to us first to talk specifically about why people might be put off it why do you think people particularly women don't are, aren't drawn towards it? I think there's this sort of element that it's a high risky thing to do. In what way? I think the height. I think some people think that maybe, oh my God, you're really, really high and you're, yeah, you're really high. And therefore that must be really dangerous when actually it's not. And while there are elements which might be more dangerous

and there's lots of different disciplines of in climbing, like there's bouldering, which can be indoors or outdoors. Indoors, again, that would be a lot safer than outdoors. There's top rope climbing indoors, but that can also be done outdoors. And both of those are relatively safe in what you do within them. I think it's interesting like from non-climbing friends if i put something on social media they think oh my god that's so dangerous how are you doing that it must be really really challenging and difficult when actually it

really isn't it's something that is really accessible and easy to get into i i absolutely love it i have to say um but every time i've ever done it and or as you see a photo of someone climbing the you the back of your knees go just looking at a photo, you know, and you just see. And it is it looks terrifying. I'm going to bring Hazel in. Also, I have to say, Kitty, how excited are you to be talking to one of your climbing heroes? Hazel, have you spoken to each other before? Hazel, you are Kitty's hero. Great to meet you, Kitty. And you. I've seen Hazel's talks that she does across the country

i went to one in leeds but um i haven't actually spoken to her well here we go we've got the two of you on together so you can talk to each other as well but hazel i just want to ask you how dangerous is climbing well it's like how kitty says you know it's kind of as dangerous as you want it to be. You can really control the risk in climbing, especially if you have access to an indoor climbing center. Outdoors, it's a bit harder to control the risk and it's more about your experience level. So if you're very experienced and skilled, you're going to be much better at controlling that risk compared to if you're a beginner climber. And that's why kind of like employing instructors and getting mentors is really important if you do want to do those types of climbing. So there might be lots of women feeling inspired or people feeling inspired listening to this. What are the stages? Presumably you can't just start straight away you must have to build it up well i mean you

can just find where your local indoor climbing center is and you can show up or you can ring up and you can ask to get an instructor or a coach just kind of like any other sport really isn't the fear rational though because you are you are ultimately you are climbing high often on vertical uh rock faces i mean obviously that you the more experienced you get the higher and harder it gets but that fear and i think that fear of heights certainly increases the older you get yeah so i think that's a good way to think about it. You know, it's like you can make climbing safe in the sense that you're very unlikely to hurt yourself physically when you go climbing. But it is actually a scary sport. You know, I think we all have this kind of primal, deep seated fear of heights, fear of falling.

I think that's totally normal. But I also think that's what makes the sport so special because it gets you out of your comfort zone. And you get to travel. Tell us about some of the amazing places you've climbed. Let's talk about, I know we've talked about the risk and the fear element. Let's talk about what makes it so spectacular. Yeah, I mean, outdoor climbing is just amazing because you get to go to some of the most beautiful, wonderful places in the world. It's kind of like a passport to see the world and also get off the beaten track. You know, you're not going to end up in the same tourist destinations as everyone else is a climber. You're going to end up in some more remote, unusual places.

Kitty, you mentioned in your email, Hazel, why do you find her so inspiring? I think that it's really interesting to see sort of a female role model within within our sport and it's not always been quite present like a lot of the social media that you see the films that have been on Netflix they're all male athletes and I think it's really nice to see a female athlete promoting the sport getting people involved within it trying to help them within like this like mindset and making sure that it can be something that you can be calm and enjoy and I think seeing like Hazel's documentary when she went to the Arctic with Greenland was really, really awesome. But also they're not necessarily seeing the coverage that Hazel was even a part of it.

And I think that it's a role model of somebody that is doing really cool stuff. And hopefully by putting someone on a stage like this, then that will help. Then others see that it's actually there and women are actually participating in it. Which is what you're doing and also Hazel inspired you and you're eight months pregnant hazel look i looked at your instagram nothing stopped you amazing but you've obviously had some backlash people have an opinion on that yeah i mean yeah so i'm still climbing

is looking very different though you know i'm climbing in a very different way um you know some some people have sort of made comments about it you know that it's too risky and that kind of thing um but actually I think times are really changing and most of the comments I've got have been really positive and it seems that people mostly find it inspiring we should probably say that of course if anyone is pregnant and looking to do exercise they should speak to their doctor you are a very you're at the top of your game so you know what you're doing. Yeah pregnancy wouldn't be the best time to start climbing let's put it that way but if you're already an experienced climber I actually think it's a sport that is that is possible to

continue through pregnancy. And the little one is going to presumably be climbing up walls and trees and anything as soon as it can. I hope so. She feels like she's trying to climb out of me right now, actually. Well, best of luck, Hazel, with all of it. Kitty, thank you so much. What's your next adventure? Where are you off to climb?

I'm off to Pembrokeshire, hopefully pretty much as soon as I finish this. I was supposed to be there already, but I delayed it because I didn't think I'd get signals. Thank you to Kitty Dowry and Hazel Findlay. Now, we received this email from a listener who writes, several of my female friends have lost husbands in the past couple of years. One mentioned to me, widow's fire. She'd never heard of it.

I never have either. Have a Google. It's a fascinating and, according to my friend, very real phenomenon. We would both be very interested to hear it discussed. Well, another listener, Lizzie, also wrote to us saying, I would really like to hear something about a much ignored side effect of sudden bereavement, and that's the need for instant gratification. That's financial, emotional and sexual. And she goes on to say, I think it one of the great taboos when speaking about death, particularly the fact

that one's libido goes through the roof. Well, we wanted to have a frank discussion about this. Nuala was joined by Lizzie, along with Stacey Heal, who's written about her experience of being widowed in the book, Now Is Not The Time For Flowers, and also the psychotherapist Lucy Beresford to shed some light on what might be going on. Nuala began by asking Lizzie how would she describe how she's feeling? I think it's changed, but there is a pretty constant, very high libido. I've described it to my friends as being like having my pants on fire. So you feel sort of permanently kind of tingly. Now, sometimes it's worse than others, but it's pretty much there all the time. And in the beginning, certainly it would wake me up at night, I would be getting out

of bed first thing in the morning. And I found the only thing that could really get rid of it was either masturbation or some form of exercise because it makes you very restless. So running, going to the gym, walking, etc. What did you think when you had these feelings? No, because I mean, people talk about grief, they talk about, you know, isolation, various things. But I had never, in all my years interviewing people about grief, heard of this. Me neither. I hadn't got a clue what was going on. And in the beginning, I just thought I was being weird. I thought this was some sort of strange

side effect. Well, of course it was. But not talked about. But not talked about. And eventually, I have to say, I didn't talk about it immediately because maybe I was a bit embarrassed, a bit humiliated about it. Talked to some of my friends who haven't been bereaved and they said, we haven't got a clue. And then talked to a couple of people, one a man, one a woman, who said, oh yeah, that's the thing. I went through that. And then I started to think,

well, why doesn't everybody talk about this? Let me turn to Stacey. And I'm also sorry for your loss, but you devoted a chapter of your book, Now Is Not The Time For Flowers, to what is called Widow's Fire. So Lizzie is not alone. No, far from it. I think when you are in the club that nobody wants to be part of, when you have these intimate conversations with other people who have lost

their partners, and I would say also not just women, I think this is something that affects men as well. I think you suddenly realise that these really strange, intense feelings that very much like Lizzie said, you have no idea where they've come from. You didn't know they existed. Suddenly, you've got this group of people that you can talk to and say, yeah, me too, me too. And I felt that it was important in my book talking about my experience of being a carer for my husband who had terminal cancer and then becoming a widow. I really wanted to shine a light on topic that people like to talk about. Mix death in with that as well. It's a really chaotic mixture that people find really quite affronting. And particularly, to be frank, a desire, an urge or a compulsion, as I think I've heard it described, for sex very soon after the partner has died.

Absolutely. And it's not even just about sex. I think it's way more nuanced than thinking of women as being these sudden, horny teenagers who never loved their husbands, anything like that. It's a, I think, depending on different situations. So mine is different to Lizzie's, for example. If you want to expand, please do. Lizzie's husband died very, very suddenly, whereas my partner was ill for a very long time.

And I think it is that when you are so up close to death, illness, hospitals, I think you feel this urge to feel alive and to experience touch and care and emotions that are not so horrific as grief. What were you looking for, Lizzie? I think it's really important as well that perhaps one of the things that stops women talking about this is maybe it's because, you know, we're middle-aged and middle-aged women's sexuality is not something that's much discussed, but also because you're not fantasizing or fixated on your husband. It's not about that. For me, it's not triggered by a person or a place or any of those things. It's just this overarching sense of desire, which, again, I think makes it a bit more taboo. Because if I were thinking about my husband, that might be more acceptable. But it absolutely isn't. It's just something that's, it's like an addiction.

That's an interesting word to use. Did you feel you needed to indulge it or stop it? I'm just thinking. In one way, it's really funny. It is funny. We're all going to admit that. It is quite funny. Maybe I'll say it is life of her that someone wants sex. And it's also quite inconvenient. Well, I'm just thinking, you said you were waking up at the middle of the night or it could happen in the middle of the day or...

Or when you're at work or you're buying a coffee or you're driving. You know, it is really, really tricky to navigate this sometimes. And I know it's not the worst thing that can happen to a person. And it is quite comedic. But you have to learn to manage your body, which as a 60-year-old woman I now am, I never thought I would be in this situation feeling like a horny teenage boy, like you said. Lucy, I have to bring you in here. How do I follow that?

But what you're hearing, you know, it's visceral, I think. And it's about the things that really matter about life and death and connection and feelings, maybe not sure what to do with them. And intimacy. Above all else, it's about intimacy and connection. There's a reason why there was a spike in births nine months after 9-11, that in the face of that enormous tragedy, people came together very urgently, very powerfully, without thought often, just to have those life-affirming experiences to remind themselves that they were alive. And what's happened here, Lizzie and Stacey have both been very eloquent

in talking about their own situations. They lost their partners in slightly different ways, but the end result is they're still alive. They're still vibrant with life and energy. And I was really struck by the fact that Lizzie taught for example about how masturbation was one of the ways through it absolutely I wish people would masturbate at least two or three times a week if not more I thought you were going to say a day I thought that as well it could be I'm not going to say no Lizzie is doing thumbs up

because it is the perfect self-soother. And you release those incredible feel-good hormones. It makes you feel much less, you kind of reduce your arousal. But you're doing that within your own parameters. You're saying this is what works for me and this is what I enjoy. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's so taboo. Women are not allowed to enjoy sex. It's almost as if society has said that isn't possible. Obviously, I do spend my life

promoting a very different message. But it is important to recognise that whatever age, it is something to be treasured, that you have that capacity for pleasure. I know it can strike you at the most inopportune times. Oh, yeah. I was coming back from Cornwall, just sitting on the motorway, and I had to stop the car. I was kind of overwhelmed with desire. I mean, it's terribly embarrassing. It's fine if you're by yourself. But you know, if you're in a meeting or something, it's absolutely devastating. Now, I have to say, it's not as bad as it once was. But I'm quite intrigued whether this is going to stay with me forever, whether this is how I now am or whether I'm going to go back to how I was. I just don't know. Do you want to go back to how you were?

I don't really know. Is there something very, very vibrant about really being in touch with that side of you? Yeah. One other thing I wanted to add was how we have to recognise that this is coming about at a time of great instability. And there's something very powerful about the known and the way in which our relationships can be very anchoring for us. But if you've lost someone in your life who was an anchor or a form of an anchor, no matter the quality of that, and you're leaving that behind, where are you going to find that? Where are you going to find not just the physical practicalities

of skin on skin contact, but where am I going to anchor myself in knowing that I'm loved and thought about and desired? And you can do that for yourself before you go into your next relationship. Because I'm thinking that you are I would imagine Lizzie Stacey you tell me a vulnerable person in the sense of potentially going into another relationship that hands up the hands are going up here go ahead Stacey you tell me I think that is such an important point it's this it's this balancing act of realising that you are exceptionally vulnerable. It's not like maybe when you were in your teens, early 20s, where maybe you broke up with someone and you could go out and meet someone

and it could be very easygoing. Whereas I think when you're older and there's been a death and maybe you have children and you have other responsibilities and you're grieving and you have all sorts of emotions in the mix that idea of how do I resolve this within me um and obviously masturbation is um an incredibly important part and again like you said something that women um don't talk about very often. But the idea about bringing someone into that is complicated. It's not as easy as kind of scratching that itch.

Lizzie, I think you're right about the vulnerability. I am worried that if I were to have a relationship in the future, I, hateful word, I worry about whether my feelings are authentic or not whether it's just a product of this of lust yeah exactly which obviously there's nothing wrong with that yes but that is and that's what I mean about

whether I would return to my pre-bereavement state or not I don't know that was listener Lizzie, Stacey Heal and Lucy Beresford speaking to Nuala still to come on the programme our relationships with our tummies, how women's much maligned middles have been portrayed culturally and historically. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day.

If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, has a significant moment or person influenced your life in a way that diverted the trajectory of it forever? Listener Betty told us about her experience. An invite to a friend's house when she was a young child introduced her to a different way of life, one that she says saved her.

So I started by asking her why she wanted to share her experience with Woman's Hour. I was in education myself. I've just recently retired. And I would often say to people, don't dismiss those little moments with children, because I guarantee you that you make a difference to that child, even if it's a moment. I've never shared it with anybody why I knew for a fact that those tiny moments tend in this kindness that thought makes a difference. So what was the moment in your life? I'm in my mid-50s and so I grew up in London in in the 70s and I was from a very large family and I was a latchkey kid like lots of children. I lived on a council

estate in Brixton and from a young age I fended for myself and life was very hard for me in my family, very challenging and I kind of had to kind of look after myself from quite a young age, from about five. But I was one of many children on the estate where we were out all day, fending for ourselves. At school, I found it difficult to make friends. So I was on my own a lot, head in a book. But a girl came to my school, and she stood out as well. She was white, but she wasn't like the other children. I suppose she would call like a hippie, free-spirited child. But also her head was in the book all the time as well. So we became really good friends very quickly. Her mother invited me to come and play after school and come for tea.

Now, as an African child, I had no idea what that meant. And I did actually expect to go and have a cup of tea. I said yes, because I didn't have to ask permission for anybody because nobody knew where I was after school. My parents came home in the evening and as long as I was there by the time they got home, everything was fine. So I said yes.

So I went to her house and it was literally like stepping through into sort of Alice in Wonderland in terms of difference. You know, her house was painted all different kinds of colours. Her whole family was there, her parents were there and her siblings and they all played. Then we had tea. What was it specifically about the dinner? They sat at a dining table and I had to actually be shown the only time I sat at a table to eat was

at school in the dining hall so I'd never experienced anything like this before and they had this meal laid out on the table her father said oh we're vegetarian I hope that's okay I just said yes no idea what vegetarian was then when we said I was looking at this food and it wasn't anything I'd I ate Nigerian food obviously I'd had chips and things at school but this was a vegetarian meal it's a beautiful meal what was it can you remember oh yes it was a egg and cheese potato pie sort of layered and it was delicious I had had like a Nigerian egg breakfast which is mixed with rice so you don't actually see the egg it's all mixed in and obviously I knew what an egg looked like but to see it in that form because when it's sliced into the pie you could see the

egg so everything was very strange I've never had broccoli before I'd never had orange juice before but the thing that got me and I was about seven or eight at the time um the thing that got me was her parents were talking and chatting to the children and asking them about their day and it just floored me and I just was staring at them how they interacted with their children and how they all interacted with each other how did that compare to your own household? The opposite. The opposite. I mean, you could actually feel the care and the love in the air. And being in that was quite overwhelming. But I just was watching it and soaking it all in. And I have a very clear memory of myself sitting at the table thinking, when I become an adult, I'm going to have a dining table.

And when I have my children, this is how we're going to live. I'm going to ask them about their day. That was everything for me. You know, I knew that in that moment that life could be different. Because as a child, your experience is your normal. And the things that I experienced in my family home, I assumed everybody's life was exactly like mine. Well, if you don't know any different when you're a child,

if that's all you've seen, then how would you know? And you've stepped into another world. Yes, I was a very unhappy child who lived in her head. And at that moment, I knew that my outside world could mirror my inside world in my head. And from that moment, I just made a vow to myself that this is the life you're going to have when you grow up. So you had something to aspire to. Well, life was quite challenging right through. I had some difficult times as a teenager, quite severe mental health issues where I was making decisions whether I was going to continue living but it was

that moment of remember you made a vow to yourself that you can have a different life so when I got married to my first husband moving into our first house and we had a futon and a couple of broken chairs we went to Ikea and I saw this huge dining table with six chairs and he said look we can't get that we we need plates and cups and I insisted and he just couldn't understand why we had to have this table so yes I bought the table oh what was that feeling like when you bought your dining table it was wonderful um I just started picturing how my children and my family the meals I was going to have the friends I was going to have around it was all my life was going to have, the friends I was going to have around. It was all my life was going to be centred around that dining table. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah. Amazing.

As a family, the dining table was the centre of everything. We played games around it and so on. I'm very engaged in my children's life. They're grown now, 28 and 26. My son lives in Brighton and he just recently pulled a dining table and phoned me to say, mum, my flat, it's now perfect because I've got a dining table. And I just burst into tears. And that's when I shared the story with him. And he said, I knew that a dining table was important to you, but I didn't know why. but it became important to me because that's where

a lot of our happy memories where have I've been together and that's where he said I knew always that you loved us and cared for us and that was another thing as well because I didn't know if I was loved as a child and I didn't really experience mutual love with somebody else until I was an adult so to have my children say that to me beautiful to me I thought well thank you it's a beautiful story it's a bit I know you've gone through a lot of hardships and I know your childhood was very difficult but uh what a story of your something it tells us a lot about you. It really does. That as a little girl, you made this promise to yourself and you worked to get to where you want to be.

The friend, what was her name and what happened to her? Her name was Love Day. So obviously you can imagine in Brixton in the 1970s, I'm sure she was picked on as much as I was. I can't remember her surname we've um lost contact we moved away in I think it was 1979 and that was it from that moment I lost contact with her have you tried to track her down well yes and no one of the details she told me was that her uncle was in TV. And I went to work in TV before I became an educator. And I nearly contacted this person a couple of times to say, do you have a niece called

Loveday? But then when I said it out loud, it sounded so ludicrous. And also, this is huge and significant to me. I don't think it would have been that significant to this family because I think they're just naturally, beautifully kind people and this is something that they do like breathing. But I think there would be something quite beautiful about them knowing the impact that they've had, you know? So Loveday, it's quite an unusual name, isn't it? Maybe Loveday or someone who knows Loveday is listening.

Well, I would love to say it was more than thank you a huge incredible gratitude to love day and her family for befriending me and her mother taking me in i suspect that her mother had suspicions that my life was tough because i looked a bit grubby and very underweight and i'm sure she was very happy that her daughter had a friend. Well, if they were standing in front of you, what would you say to them? Well, thank you so much. You have been in my thoughts, I think, nearly all of my life. Because I don't think I would be here today with the life that I've got today

if you hadn't befriended me and invited me into your home I wouldn't have the life that I have and my children the children that I would have had wouldn't have felt the love from me I think I learned how to be kind in that moment. It took me some time to do that, but I learned how you treat other people, how kindness is infectious. What a wonderfully inspiring conversation that was with Betty. And if you or someone you know are having feelings of despair

or are emotionally distressed, you can go to our website where there's a list of organisations that offer advice and support. So many of you felt compelled to get in touch with us after hearing Betty on Woman's Hour. I'm going to read a couple of your messages. Anita, the little Nigerian girl who was invited for tea to her friend's house is the best and most memorable article on radio I have ever listened to. Tears rolled down my face when I heard that story totally wonderful inspirational and happy thank you I will never forget the message in there another one here amazing to hear your story

from Betty it was like I was listening to my own childhood in the 70s the kindness shown to me by another family who are culturally different to my own West Indian family thank goodness today I think those old ways of bringing up children in those families have gone. Friends of my generation who shared my background now have loving and engaged families. Thank you. Now, our next guest got in touch to tell us about the volunteer work she does with the charity Pets as Therapy. Sarah Palmer told us how her life has been immeasurably improved because of her dog, Haggis, and the work they do together visiting local hospitals and care homes. Sarah and Haggis joined Nuala from Farnham in Surrey, and Nuala began by asking Sarah how Haggis brings comfort to others. He's there for cuddles and confiding your troubles and just being a really delightful, non-judgmental companion.

He's never going to look at me and say, my God, what have you done to your hair? Or are you really going out like that? And when we go to hospital and the care homes, he sometimes is a trigger for people to remember their past lives, think about things in the past and how happy they've been. And even idly, I can be chatting to the patient or the resident and they can be just gently cuddling his ears or something.

And I can see people relaxing and unbending. And even if they've been a wee bit suspicious of a perfect stranger coming into their hospital bedroom when you've got a wee cuddly dog sitting on your knee or putting his head on their knee and looking just adorable and lovely and totally non-threatening it does seem to have a very very beneficial effect. And so does Haggis have a particular temperament that you knew he would work in this way? The lady who bred them told me that there were two puppies in the litter who she thought would be ideal for Pat. Well, I was so ignorant, I didn't know anything about the organisation at all. And Sarah, let me just interrupt there

because Pat is pets as therapy. Sorry, continue. Pets as Therapy. I didn't know anything about the organisation. So I spent the first few months of his life with me just bringing him up and training him to be a sensible, obedient, lovely dog. And I noticed that he is very calm and quiet and gentle. He has his moments, obviously. And so last spring I looked into it and received tremendous enthusiasm and support and encouragement. It was very, very easy and enjoyable to get him trained and assessed. And he knows when he goes into hospital or the care homes or the library, we do sessions for the children in the library, which is great fun. He just knows that he is quiet and walks nicely and sits partly on people's feet or people's knees

or wherever they would like to interact with him. But he must be a particularly sensitive dog because you know yourself, it's not every dog that wants to interact with many, many people. You're absolutely right. And I'm obviously very biased. But I do get people remarking on how calm, gentle and intuitive he is. He does seem to know.

I mean, I was at the hospital yesterday and there was a gentleman who was obviously feeling appalling, in pain, tired, exhausted, disorientated, and very ill at ease with life. And Havis just went and put his head on this gentleman's knee and just, I could tell the chap was just delighted to have something tangible, a lovely soft food. And by the end of our conversation, he'd sort of unbent and relaxed and was not talking quite so much about how awful he felt, but looking forward to the future and going home and his daughter was going to look after him. So he's an extraordinary little dog.

What a wonderful listen that was. That was Sarah Palmer and Haggis. Now, we got a message from Carol. See what you make of this. She said, could you do something on women's relationships with our tummies? Girdles, shapewear and finding ways to conceal our wedges, muffins and midriff bulges. Post-pregnancy, post-menopause, it's a lifetime of struggle and sometimes shame. Can we make peace with our tums? Big bums are okay, but not big tums. Now I'm over 60, I no longer get asked when my baby is due. I'm thin all over, but always had a big tum. Carol, the barrel, I was called in school. Please can we have a respectful ode to the female tum? Oh, Carol, kids are cruel. To discuss this, Nuala was joined by content

creator Lottie Drynan, who created the IBS blog, The Tummy Diaries, and hashtag My Bloated Wardrobe, and has learned to love her rounded stomach. Joining them was Dr. Charlotte Boyce, Associate Professor in Victorian Literature and Culture at Portsmouth University, and columnist Praveena Rudra, who are going to tell us about the historical and cultural differences when it comes to our midriffs. Nuala began by asking Lottie when she began to think of her tummy as a problem. I grew up with IBS and bloating, so my stomach was always changing. And for as long as I can remember, I used to stand in front of the mirror, holding stomach squeezing my rolls trying to suck in and trying to sort of distort and change my body to be something that I'd see in the magazines and now we see in social

media and IBS is irritable bowel syndrome which can cause bloating I imagine that's it yes so your body's constantly changing specifically your your stomach area you know I just had a quick search right on google and I put in tummy. Here's a few headlines that came up to me in newslines. Flattering and lightweight. The little black dress that's perfect for hiding a tummy. The tummy-controlled swimsuit taking brand name by

storm. Kendall Jenner shows off her taut tummy in a crop top and leggings. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. It's absolute madness. And all of that is around women's bodies as well right was there a single one about the one about the man was a health concern right when to be worried about yeah so it is that doesn't surprise me at all because it's all either how to make your stomach look look a certain way or if it doesn't how to hide it we've grown up to

feel ashamed of this part of our body that actually most women, almost every woman has, maybe not Kendall Jenner, but apart from that, I'd say all of us have a bit of a tummy. And what changed for you then to embrace it? And as I think of embracing tummy, I'm actually sitting here kind of holding on to mine. I feel you. Do you know what? I think it was, so I tried to change my body for so long, did really dramatic things to do that I'd been on every diet. I've done dangerous things and I suffered with an eating disorder. And even when I was dangerously thin, I still had a little bit of a tummy. It still didn't look like what I was trying to get my body to be. And I thought, if I have put myself through all of that, and I still don't look look this way that's just not how my body's supposed to be and I started on this journey of it actually social media for all the things that are bad about it it really helped me and following women of all different shapes and sizes and seeing that they're still beautiful but not even just the way they look just like what what's on the

inside is so much more important and it took a lot of learning and practicing and it does sound cheesy but it's something that I sort of had to fake that confidence until it genuinely practice it just like you you would with anything else that you're trying to change and eventually I believed it and realized that my stomach or any part of my body is the least important thing about me that we don't sit and prod our elbows or our, like, you know, or our, I don't know, our wrists. I can't believe my elbow. It's just another part of our body. Yeah, although there are certain parts of the body that definitely get a very hard time.

And they're the parts of the body that the diet industry can profit off of. They can't really profit off our elbows. But if they can tell us that we need to change our tums or our bums or our boobs, they can make money. Let's bring in Dr Charlotte Boyce. Charlotte, our listener Carol asked if we can ever make peace with our tums. Has there always been this ongoing war? Belly factor has always tended to come with a lot of cultural baggage, particularly for women. I mean, we can look back as far as the Middle Ages and the Christian churches' attitude towards an excess of flesh. You know, it was considered to denote an excessive appetite, which was a sin. And for men, forgive me for stepping

in on you, but for men and women? Well, I was just going to say women as the kind of daughters of Eve are seen as particularly susceptible to the temptations of appetite. So there's always been, I think, this particular cultural baggage for women. A crucial point is the 19th century with development of a mass media, women more and more being surrounded by the kinds of images which really promote a very slender beauty ideal. And we start to see evidence in this period of women expressing dissatisfaction with their bodies and particularly with things like belly fat. The editors of the Girls Own Paper, which was a really popular magazine for young women in the 1880s and 1890s, they wrote that their readers

seemed crazed on the subject of being, as they supposed, too fat. And they blamed these anxieties on women wanting to live up to the imagery that they saw in fashion plates and in adverts. Incidentally, the girl's own paper also carried these fashion plates. So I think that is indicative of the mixed messaging that women get, that, you know, we're supposed to be content with our bodies, but also here is this very unobtainable ideal. But I'm thinking back as well, like, you know, if you look at Renaissance painters, the belly was in full glorious display. Yeah. So what's been held up as the physical ideal for women has definitely changed over time. has a defined stomach, you can see it. And even more so in the paintings of Rubens, the

Three Graces, paintings like that, there's a very visible overhanging belly. Art has also been used though to fat shame women. And a good example of this would be Emma Hamilton, who's perhaps best known today as Nelson's mistress. When she was in her late teens and early 20s, she was actually a very celebrated muse of artists like George Romney. She was held up as the epitome of female beauty. But then when she got into her sort of late 30s and 40s, after a couple of pregnancies, her body was subject to some quite cruel public mockery by cartoonists like James Gilray, who depicted her performing the poses that she'd done when she was a younger woman, but this time with a very large rounded belly. And she's portrayed very much as a grotesque. So there's definitely shifts over time. And I want to bring in Praveena here, who is listening to our conversation,

Praveena Ruda, because you say that culturally things can be somewhat different. Perhaps what we're talking about is a more Western view of tummies. What do you think, Praveena? So yes, my parents are Sri Lankan and I've spent a decent amount of time in Sri

Lanka, and India, certainly growing up. And yeah, I guess like what the West sees of India quite often is Bollywood and things like that, all of which have very specific Western influences. So you will see more women with super flat bellies and fair skin and all that kind of thing. But I would say growing up, I was around a lot of women wearing saris of all sizes. And saris obviously mean that you're showing quite a lot of your belly on a day to day basis. And I really think that influenced a lot of my beauty standards, because I didn't think that you can't have a wobbly belly if you want to put it on show and I saw yeah women with like folds of fat just like happily having their bellies out and I think that is something that is quite different from here where I think there's a

feeling that you almost can't wear a crop top or get a picture of yourself in a crop top and put it on Instagram unless you um you have a kind of washboard stomach. Why do you think, Lottie, that larger boobs or smaller boobs or a big bum or a small bum, that's gone in and out of fashion? I never understand why thighs and tummies have not, or upper arms for that matter. I do. Like I say, I think it is down to diet culture. They know it's a multi-million and billion pound industry across countries and they can make so much money out of profiting. And unfortunately, you know, we're seeing, I think we do see it less now, but diet ads have been part of our life every single day. I grew up, my mum always on a diet and she grew up

with her mum and our stomach is an easy target for that. I'm wondering about that Praveena I've just talked about you know whether it's boobs or bottoms and bellies is there a difference that you've seen there as well with other body parts in the sense of being celebrated or shamed? I think I notice it most with the belly specifically because with a sari it's the one bit it's really funny we're very modest about this area and covering it up so you're covering you're talking about kind of clavicles chest yes exactly and um growing up like relatives would always tell me if this bit of the sari was falling down and I'd be like hang on a second like the whole of my stomach is on show I'm looking at you on a screen but just to describe to our radio listeners, so that is the part just above your breasts, kind of your chest, always needed to be more covered than a belly.

Yeah, as in even if you were wearing essentially the crop top there, if the shawl on top of the crop top was falling such that you could only see the crop top covering your chest, that was a problem. But it wasn't a problem to have, yeah, your whole stomach showing. Lottie Drinan, Dr Charlotte Boyce and Praveena Rudra speaking to Nuala. What a wonderful week that was. And just a reminder, if you'd like to listen to those programmes in their entirety, just go to BBC Sounds. Do join Nuala on Monday for a very special programme all about sisters. We're even going to get introduced to Nuala's sisters.

That's all from me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend and love your belly. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.