Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Loneliness & health, Concepts of Renaissance beauty & Rock Follies musical

Episode Date: August 5, 2023

All this week on Woman’s Hour we’ve been discussing the topic of loneliness as women and young people are statistically more likely to experience it. We hear from the psychiatrist Dr Farhana Mann from UCL about the impact of loneliness on our health.Jodie Ounsley is the world’s first ever deaf female rugby sevens international player, and she was part of the Woman’s Hour Power List of women in sport. She also uses TikTok to show others what it’s like to live with hearing loss. She talks about being a sportswoman, as well as one of the brand new TV Gladiators.The children’s charity NSPCC says that its Helpline received over 1,000 contacts last year about children experiencing coercive and controlling behaviour, a form of domestic abuse. The school summer holidays can be a particularly difficult time for some of these children. If you are worried about someone, what should you do? We hear from Paddi Vint, Development Manager for the NSPCC and a woman we call Margaret, who experienced coercive control in a previous relationship.Would you use fig and pine nut hand scrub? Or perhaps some tree gum anti-wrinkle cream? Just a few of the 16th century beauty recipes Professor Jill Burke has included in her new book, How to be a Renaissance Woman. Jill discusses 16th century women’s body anxieties and the men who wrote beauty tips for them.Actor and writer Georgie Grier has shared a post on social media after her opening show at the Edinburgh Fringe had just one person in the audience. She’s had replies of support and encouragement from thousands of people, including comedian Jason Manford. She tells us what it was like to perform to one person, and how she feels about the reaction she’s getting.Rock Follies was a 1970s TV series about an all-female rock band, The Little Ladies, trying to make their mark on a male-dominated music industry. A new musical adapted from the TV series is currently on in Chichester. We hear from Rula Lenska, who played Q in the original TV series, and Zizi Strallen, who has taken on the stage role.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and a very warm welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. This is where we gather up the most interesting things on the programme from the week and put them all in one place just for you. Call them the highlights, if you like. Coming up this afternoon, Renaissance beauty standards. How do they compare to beauty standards today? You weren't allowed to be too fat and you weren't allowed to be too thin. So basically, these pressures on women haven't changed. The specific kind of things that you

have to be might have changed, but there's been pressures at least since the 16th century. And I think the 16th century was particularly the flashpoint for a lot of these pressures on women to be beautiful coming together. Plus the professional rugby player Jodie Ounceley on what it's like to live life as a sportswoman with hearing loss. At the minute, I'm the only deaf female rugby player to represent England Sevens, which, yeah, that's amazing for me, but I don't want to be the first person. I'd love for other people to feel like they can do the same.

So I feel like we still have got a long way to go, but I think that's why I'm so passionate of trying to do my best to get it out there and just raise that awareness along the way. As the Edinburgh Fringe opened this week we hear from actor and writer Georgie Greer who opened her one-woman play Sunsets at the Fringe and only one person came to watch and we have music and chat from Rula Lensker and Zizi Strallon on playing the character Q in the TV show and stage play Rock Follies. So grab yourself a drink and get comfy. Now, loneliness. Is this something you feel? Have there been particular times in your life when you felt lonelier than others? Well, what helped? We've been discussing loneliness all week. On Monday, we heard from Rachel and Beth,

two women in their 30s who say they are lonely. The stats tell us women and young people in particular are likely to say they're lonely. In a moment, we'll hear what loneliness really is, why it happens and what impact it can have on our health. But first, here's a clip from Beth and Rachel about their experiences on loneliness. It was sort of like a lens had been slipped down over my vision and it was warping things and I would go about my life as normal. I would go on these trips alone, I would be writing at home and instead of finding this really empowering, I just felt drained. I would go in public and people would seem hostile and my friends almost, I would feel this yawning

distance between us. It was so so bizarre. You know I kind of feel it in the pit of my tummy a little bit it sort of like sits there under everything that I do and it's like I find it for me it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy actually you're sort of lonely and you're desperate for something but you're sort of isolating yourself at the same time. Well on Tuesday Nuala spoke to Dr Fahana Mann a psychiatrist at the University College of London who's been studying loneliness and its effects for over 10 years. Loneliness itself it's a very powerful emotion you know many people are trying to better understand it by talking to people but one thing that comes up is that it's very powerful and it

has strong links with mental health and also with physical health so it's not surprising that you get those kind of physical feelings just like you might if you're particularly anxious or you're particularly distressed in other circumstances. And why does it have that impact on the body? Well, so this is an active area of research trying to understand what it is. I suppose a good place to start is sort of defining what we mean by loneliness when we're talking about it in the research that we do. It's a subjective experience. So it's this distressing experience where there's essentially a mismatch between the level of social connectedness that a person has in their life and what they would like. So of course, that varies from person to person. And so when we do research, we very kind of have to focus in on that specific aspect of relationships other than, for example, objective things like whether or not you live alone or other things that we can

count. So it's that emotional experience, exactly how it has the obvious effects it has on mortality. So premature mortality, risk of dying earlier is higher in people who are lonely over time. There's a number of possible explanations. One of those is health behaviours. So people who are lonely tend to take more risky health behaviours. So in terms of think other risk factors for health, whether it's smoking or physical inactivity, etc. Other aspects are impact on the immune system. So there's increasing work, we're not sure exactly how that sort of causal those steps happen. But there clear evidence that to do with your sort of inflammatory processes and so we see differences in outcomes in things like heart problems or

respiratory problems and also in mental health and depression and what's clear is if you already have an existing mental health problem you're or physical health problem you're at risk of becoming lonely but also the other way around if you don't we've looked at people in the general population who don't have existing mental health problems and loneliness predisposes you to developing those problems over time. So it's kind of both ways. What about sleep? Yes, sleep is something that has come up. Again, exactly what the mechanisms are could be to do with those inflammatory processes and a sort of stressor effect on the body.

But it certainly is linked with poor sleep and sleep. We know poor sleep is linked with poor health outcomes in a range of different ways. So it's working in many different fashions in different people. So there isn't a kind of one-size-fits-all solution in that sense. Rachel and Beth that we spoke to are both women in their 30s. You know, they talked as well about, particularly Rachel saying, you know, feeling embarrassed that you shouldn't be lonely at that age.

Is it possible to predict who will or won't be lonely? Not in the sense of having an exact formula. And I think that's the thing that keeps coming up when we look at interventions. What do we do to help people? And part of that process is, well, how do we know who we're meant to help and what works? But there are certain things when you look across a population, you sort of look at statistically what puts us more at risk. And one of the things that people are trying to do is look across the life course. And so, for example, if you look at adolescence and young adulthood,

which we're focusing on today in women or men, it's a huge time of upheaval, of change. Even if you haven't had additional mental health problems, but changes in your sort of physiology or your social setting, you may be moving away from social networks at school. The parent-child relationship is shifting. So it's already a huge period of change in terms of your social setting and your social identity. And in terms of who's more at risk, you can see certain things like, say, bullying earlier in childhood, existing mental health problems, young people who say that they perceive their parent, the relationship with their parent to not be a close confiding relationship,

that might put them at risk. There are other population factors like being in terms of deprivation and poverty, we see that that's a link in terms of who's more vulnerable being lonely, and other things like existing mental health problems, existing chronic physical health problems. Why the bullying? So again, it's an important, I suppose, an experience early in life that is kind of teaching you where your role is, what your identity is, where your self-worth is coming from, how you fit in with other people in your environment. And when you're young, or even when you're older, you're constantly learning that. And so early on, you're more vulnerable and receptive to those sorts of um i suppose messages that you're getting and if your

early experience at home or elsewhere is one of trauma and stress in your relationships with other people then that can carry through later in life in terms of how you then interact in social relationships and your risk of being lonely later on and there are studies that show that if you look at people who are lonely in childhood follow them up again again in sort of 30s, 20s, 30s, and then look later in midlife, that it is linked with not just mental health problems and physical health problems, but also things like earning less, being less likely to be in the workforce. And they're looking at things like your self-esteem and what you bring into your connections that could be impacted by those early life experiences. What would better support look like in your view?

Better support for people that are experiencing, yeah. So I think certainly we're talking more about it. So that sense of recognising that I think what I'm experiencing is loneliness. And is that an emotional loneliness of a sort of need for meaningful, emotional, close, confiding connection? Or is it a social relationship, social loneliness, rather, where I do have a confiding relationship, but I would like to be more connected to community so stepping back to think what the issues are in the individual and then looking at yourself whether there's issues like depression or other stresses that are getting in the way and beyond that I

would say having a sense of where you can access help and there's lots of evidence that group membership even if it's quite sort of superficial seeming contacts at the start, but a place where places, in fact, the more groups, the better in some sense, where you feel valued, respected, and you have a meaningful connection with other people in the group, and then can grow relationships from that can be really helpful for your health. So being proactive, for example, if you're a listener to start looking at perhaps other people who share that, starting online if that's easier, and then rebuilding that sort of sense of social support and that network around you if it's something that's fallen out. Do you see, this is also I suppose related to the support, funding or initiatives when it comes to loneliness being

prioritised? Because I feel we're just beginning to have those conversations about it as a public health issue. Yes, I think it really does need to be a public health priority. I think in the UK we are in fact ahead of many places in the world. We have the world's first loneliness minister here and other places are looking to us in some ways to sort of learn from what we're doing. But I completely agree that we have a long way to go. And I think the patterns that come out repeatedly are often it's the most marginalized groups in society who most suffer from the health impacts of loneliness. So, for example, I work with people with severe mental illness or other groups.

New mothers are a group that come up. And so I think we need to better understand what works for whom and make sure that anything that we roll out, good as that is, doesn't miss out the most vulnerable groups of people. Another story here from Vicky. I survived a toxic 15-year marriage where I was systematically isolated from friends. I cannot seem to bond with others and find friendships difficult to achieve. Crippling loneliness ensues. Seeing family and groups of friends enjoying time together reinforces that I don't have that for myself.

A seemingly confident woman, she says, hiding how she really feels. She brings up a few important factors there. One is this sense of comparison, because if you're looking at the level of connectedness you sort of want in your life and what you have, you're comparing it to some sense in your mind of what you should have, what the ideal is. So I think if you're surrounded by people who maybe you don't feel able to share that experience, or there's a pressure to not have that experience, that makes it even more painful and adds to your sense of alienation and loneliness. But yeah, so I think that comparison is a big challenge, particularly getting that help on your own self-worth and self-esteem. Because she sounds like she's been through something very traumatic that will likely impact on her own confidence going into future relationships.

That was Dr. Farhana Mann. And you can find all our discussions about loneliness on BBC Sounds. Just search for the programmes from last week. And there's also an article on the Woman's Hour website with tips and advice. Jodie Owensley was on our Woman's Hour Powerlist in the sportswoman category. She's a professional rugby player currently playing with the England Sevens team and the Exeter Chiefs. She's also deaf and has created a TikTok account where she shares her life living as a woman with hearing loss. The videos have been liked nearly

five million times. She's also the honorary president of UK Deaf Sports, the first ever deaf female rugby sevens international player, and she's competed in the Deaf Olympics and was awarded Young Deaf Sports Personality of the Year. Well, Jodie told Nuala how she was lip-reading Nuala's words during the interview. Obviously, that's how I mainly communicate. Obviously, it's different for everyone but um I'm like reading

and you seem pretty pretty easy to understand so. A bit gobby so tell me a little bit though about that as you go through life day to day because I'm thinking that you might not always have people face on to you to be able to communicate in that way what's it like yeah I mean like on a daily basis people sometimes people just who don't know me don't even know I'm deaf or even most of my friends forget that I'm deaf I think it's because I just get on I just get on so well with it people just forget that I'm constantly reading it is more down to me to you know remind people or you know just be honest with people and just try and make people more aware um obviously in a my way is like making jokes I'm so bad for making jokes all the

time but it you know it breaks the ice with people people like feel comfortable to ask me questions then so that's kind of my way to get around it just being open with people and making the odd jokes and that and I thought that was interesting on one of your TikTok videos that you're very much pushing people to ask those questions what was it you said that you're not going to bite them yeah literally but the thing is like I said people just seem very nervous or scared of saying the wrong thing or can you ask that can you ask certain questions but I'm literally like don't be afraid just ask me and I'll answer it honestly um so yeah that's I'm just trying to break down the stigma I suppose around around the topic so that is one aspect that we're talking to you about today

but you are on our women in sport list you're incredibly successful rugby as I mentioned but you started doing athletics then Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu where did that come from? Well Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu came from my dad because he's come from a fighting background so he came from MMA so mixed martial arts and then he went into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu so a lot of our like Saturday nights was fighting in the garage having a fight in the garage and then just in time before Britain's got talent and then we had our like sort of our chicken nuggets on a Saturday night as well it's just typical um but I actually started before I got into athletics I started with the World Cold Carrying Championships so it's a very Yorkshire

event um but you basically run a mile with a sack of coal on your shoulders and it's it's like from the pub and it's the first one to the mayor pole but I'm I'm telling you it's such a big event now and it's been going on for like over like 40 50 years or something like that now Jodie I thought I had misunderstood you but I didn't I heard you correctly oh you didn't but um yeah like it's it just gets bigger every year as well so I started when I was three years old and I remember lying like my parents said I lied about my age obviously because you had to be like five years old to get in the races um and then I literally did it every year but obviously I had to stop when I got into professional sport but I still go every year to watch it anyway you see this is appealing to me Jodie I carry coal and I

eat chicken nuggets and I can be a superstar sports superstar like you it's balance um let me continue because you are part of the deaf community but i'm wondering how has that been to be within the sports world um is there enough recognition and i'm thinking of like you know maybe a young girl who is deaf now but would love to have a career like yours yeah like obviously the deaf community there's so many different sports and that's purely like deaf sports the deaf olympics but obviously going into professional sport it's been mainstream so at the minute like i'm the only deaf female rubber player to represent england sevens which yeah that's amazing for me but I don't want to be the first person I'd love for other people to feel like they can do the same so I feel like

we still have got a long way to go but I think that's why I'm so passionate of trying to do my best to get it out there and just raise that awareness along the way. What do you think stands in the way? It's just simple barriers and mostly like just a lack of awareness I suppose like people like if you haven't met a deaf person before never mind in a professional sporting world you just you're just not gonna be aware of that so I think it's just having that awareness me trying to educate people and the more people have that awareness the more people can deaf people can sort of mix into that environment so yeah it's just little steps so you're raising awareness i mentioned your tiktok i'm curious what reaction you've got to it

what to my tiktok to me well at the start i'm not gonna like in lockdown i didn't have tiktok i thought it was just all about dancing i thought i'm staying away from that app because i can't dance um and then when i actually downloaded it i saw people you know trying to educate people in different ways and I thought oh maybe I could do that with my deafness and just say oh this is what happens if I take my cochlear implant off and instantly the reaction I got was it was pretty it took me aback because it was like you know teachers, coaches, parents of deaf children just all asking questions and it was just really sort of heartwarming to see that. And then that just gave me the confidence to carry on doing it.

You know, you mentioned the cochlear implant there, Jodie, and that can be a controversial issue within deaf communities. Yeah, it's obviously it's just everyone has different opinions. It's just it depends how you've been brought up your level of deafness um but obviously it was my parents choice because i was what a baby at the time um and i respect their choice but obviously it just depends how you've been brought up and how would you describe for people that are coming to this fresh what what is the argument or the debate perhaps I think it's just more of the case

of if you're deaf it's nice to stay within the deaf community you know sign language as your first language if you want to go to a deaf school and just being really in that community but for me I went to mainstream school I had a cochlear implant so I got told to focus more on my speech therapy and my language rather than sign language so I only know little bits of sign language because I've learned that as I've got older so it's it's kind of just the community side of things really. But do you feel that you straddle both now? Weirdly I think I'm kind of in the middle I'm mostly like my sporting background I'm all in the mainstream world and I'm like the only deaf person but then I'm also part of the deaf community

because I obviously growing up I went to the deaf olympics and I've got loads of friends in the deaf community so I almost feel like I'm stuck in the middle but I'm just really trying my hardest to sort of manage both and you you know, keep everyone happy. Let's talk about gladiators, because I think some of my listeners may not be familiar with it. I grew up with it, you know, and that was, you know, you talk about your jujitsu and your chicken nuggets on a weekend night. We had gladiators on the telly. You are going to be Fury. Tell me about Fury and what what can we expect well obviously fury right now you probably don't really think i'm that furious but it's amazing because fury has two personalities one personality is how i am now i'm very like warm to people I'm a big hugger I love hyping people up but as soon as I get into

that arena Fury is not there to make friends she's there to do damage she's there to do business and yeah she's pretty savage but as soon as that whistle goes you're getting a hug afterwards so it's pretty much me in terms of on and off the rugby field. So it's perfect, really. That was the brilliant Jodie Ousley speaking to Nuala there. Now, the children's charity NSPCC says that its helpline received over 1,000 contacts last year about children experiencing coercive and controlling behaviour, a form of domestic abuse. The school some holidays can be a particularly difficult time for some children, and the charity is asking the public to be vigilant and contact them if they have concerns.

It's also asking the government for extra funding to ensure that child victims of domestic abuse can access high quality specialist domestic abuse support. To find out more about what can go on behind closed doors, I was joined by Margaret, not her real name, who experienced coercive control in a previous relationship, and Paddy Vint, the development manager at the NSPCC helpline. She told me who was calling them for help. From the helpline, we are hearing from parents, neighbours, professionals, anybody who has a concern for children. And in particular, we're also hearing from victims of domestic abuse themselves. And they're telling us about the impact of the abuse, not only on themselves, but also on their children's experience of the domestic abuse.

What kinds of things are you hearing? Certainly, when we're thinking about the kind of coercive control and behaviour, which seems to be most prevalent in a lot of our calls. It's about the use of that power and control over the victim themselves and the impact that it's having on their everyday life, you know, that sense of seeking to take away that person's freedom and basically stripping away their sense of self, which ultimately impacts on their own children as well for growing up in a home and an environment where that abuse is being played out. I've got a couple of examples here, Paddy. A boy aged 15 called Childline and he said,

my dad is abusive to me and my mum. He shouts at us, calls us names, threatens us, is controlling, intimidating and degrading. My dad drinks a lot and my mum makes excuses for him. I think she is scared that he will smash things up, make her lose her job and make her life hell if she leaves. I can see you nodding there. And then another one, 16 year old girl got in touch to say recently my dad's been threatening to move us to another country, even though mum is begging him not to. I'm so fed up of living with him. He doesn't let me go to school. Me and mum have pleaded with him hundreds of times to change his mind. He doesn't want us to go out or dress in a certain way.

Why do you think that the summer holidays is a particularly risky time for some children? You know, very often home isn't the safe place that we want it to be, unfortunately. You know, some children take great solace in going to school going to after-school clubs and very often the thought of going home and experiencing that abuse is actually a fear for those children so during the summer holidays we've got extended periods off where there's very little additional adult intervention for those children they're not seeing their teachers they're not seeing their sports coaches they're not seeing they're teachers they're not saying they're sports coaches they're not saying they're friends who they may be confiding and certainly the you know the contacts that we've had to our own child line service

you know children are describing that sense of fear hopelessness and being afraid. I'm keen to bring Margaret in here because Margaret you you were with your husband for almost 20 years a long history of abuse before we get into that I'm quite I'm keen to understand how you actually managed to get that get out it was a very strange thing in the process of coming to terms with what was happening to you and your children and being able to voice it out to the police, really. So there had been two occasions where I had rung them just to log what happened to us. But there was one evening when I just thought

I just couldn't get on anymore and I just sat up in my bed and actually, thankfully, a police officer had looked at my case notes and came and rescued us. Now when he came to the door it was half past ten at night my husband as he was then was a taxi driver and so he was out on a night and he came in the early hours of the morning and I was really afraid that the police officers would come while he came home. But thankfully, they completely ignored me. And, you know, I was actually shooting my dog, the policeman's foot in the door and told him to go away. But thankfully, he didn't listen. And he said, no, no, no.

We know that if you don't come now, you will be dead. And one thing he did say, which was really strange, he said, it happens in middle class, you know, which was really strange to say, but, well, I lived in a four-bed detached house and I was a teacher. Yeah. And, you know, there's an assumption that nobody will believe you because you have this respectable life to everybody else.

And you made sure that you performed that act to keep you and yourself safe. Because the threat behind the scene is if you dare tell anybody, I'll make sure that you are. They know that you are mentally ill and the children will be taken off you and you will not have them. So that police officer who listened on the phone call was marvellous. And he took that decision to actually say, enough's enough. And we were put in a police safe house with women's aid as well. Looking at those many years of abuse and thinking about it now, I mean, you've just mentioned a little bit of the coercive control by making you feel that intense shame and saying that he's going to publicly shame you and make everyone believe that you're mentally unwell. What was he like to live with? What were the other bits of coercive control that you might have not noticed at the time?

Well, it's a thing that NSPCC and other charities will hear all the time. It's like, but it's not bad all the time. You know, you do have good times and you just have to believe you're going to be okay. So elements of it were, you know, he would say things like, I will buy you the best clothes. You know the clothes I buy, you always look better on you. And you know that friend you've got, she doesn't really like you, but you're thinking, she does. Or your family member, they don't like me. It's best just if we just stay away from them because, you know, arguments happen and we're just like peace in this family now the other bit was because he was a taxi driver the children had to keep really quiet in the morning

uh they couldn't make a noise because he would wake if if they woke him up you know we would suffer the consequences um i i'm a very aware of you know of what time we're on so I'm not going to say exactly what you said but it was hurtful and lasting effects What would you say to anyone listening? What advice would you give them if this is happening to them? There are people out there that can help you You must reach out one of the things um

that stood out for me is that you are encouraging people the public to be vigilant absolutely this is something that i've i'm just it's a very tricky one isn't it because at what point should people intervene? If you don't know 100% categorically what is going on behind closed doors, you suspect something is because it can have big implications. So what do you mean by that when you're saying be vigilant? Absolutely. Well, you know, very often the height of summer,

you're going to have windows are going to be open. You're going to be seeing the children at home a lot more because they're maybe not at school. The society we live in now, a lot of people are now maybe also working from home more. So actually, sometimes we need our community to keep an eye on our neighbours and our families around us to be aware of those kind of comings and goings that are happening from the house, to be aware of noises and shouting that's coming from the house. And keeping an eye on the children. Absolutely. You don't have to be certain. You don't have to know for sure. But if you have concerns or something just seems that little bit off for you,

please reach out to the helpline. We can talk you through the process you know explore your concerns with you and the this could be this might be i've just got a bit of a gut feeling about that yeah that's what our our helpline and child protection specialists are there for to to talk you through that process and you can also do it um confidentially you know we can talk you through your anonymity policy as well if you're concerned about the information identifying you. And Margaret, how are you now?

And how are your children? We're doing really well, thank you. And the strange thing about it all, my husband said he was doing this for the best of us, all this abuse. But actually, if you saw how the children are now, they are very successful, very creative, in ways I never, ever thought that they would be achieving.

And so I'm very proud. And we love life because life's for living, isn't it? And we look for the good. So when you look for the good, you find it. That was Margaret sharing her experience and Paddy Vint from the NSPCC. Still to come, we hear from Georgie Greer, the woman who took her one woman show to Edinburgh and one person came to watch it. Now, Listener Week is fast approaching on the 21st of August. We can't wait. We've received so many incredible ideas, but we are greedy for more.

Is there a topic you've always wanted us to discuss? Maybe you're starting your career, navigating the dating scene or moving to university, and you want to consult an expert about a dilemma you're facing. Or perhaps there's an unusual lifestyle, beauty or fashion trend you'd like us to cover. Well, whatever it is, get in touch. You can text us on 84844. You can contact us via our website or you can get in touch via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

We would love to hear your ideas. What would you like us to talk about on Woman's Hour during Listener Week? We are handing the reins over to you. Now, would you use fig and pine nut hand scrub, rose lip balm, or perhaps some tree gum anti-wrinkle cream? Just a few of the 16th century beauty recipes Professor Jill Burke has included in her new book, How to Be a Renaissance Woman, The Untold History of Beauty and Female Creativity. There are also tips for losing weight, including avoiding melancholy for at least an hour and a half before bed. Jill's book delves into 16th century women's body anxieties and explores how artists, painters,

and the invention of the full-length mirror influenced them. But what evidence did she find about body hair removal? I started thinking, so what are women feeling about all these nudes being around? And does it affect the way that people understand their own bodies or the way they look at women's bodies? And so I started finding, thinking, is there any evidence about body hair removal? So I started finding all these recipes for body hair removal. And it became clear that Renaissance women were indeed removing their body hair.

And what were they doing it with? Sorry to interrupt. Oh, all sorts of things. Give us an idea. They did use wax, for example. They did have kind of wax and sticky tree gums and things, but they also used quicklime, which melted the hair off. There's lots of cautionary tales about, you know,

taking it off quick enough before your flesh burns off. I know. But, you know, just like things like Veet work today, it's an alkaline solution, so we've got to also be careful. But then I found out that there's recipes for all sorts of things, you know, for moisturiser, for toner, for anti-wrinkle cream. There's slimming tips. And there's hundreds of these recipes that still exist in printed books and in manuscripts and then I started to think

more broadly about what women thought about beauty did they feel pressurized to look good um how did they kind of juggle different um ideas of beauty and different things they're doing in their life and and that's really what the book's about it I got I was really astounded by how much women actually talked about these things in the 16th and 17th century I found as well so much of it so modern you know I was hoping when I looked at renaissance paintings with curvy bodies that those women weren't being pressurized in the same way but unfortunately yes oh absolutely um both pressurized to the same way, but unfortunately, yes. Oh, absolutely. Both pressurized to be slimmer and to be fatter. So, you know, it was harder, I think,

to have clear skin was really tough in the Renaissance because there are a lot of bugs about, like scabies, a lot of things like smallpox around. So that was really prized. It was really prized to have a kind of plump body. You weren't allowed to be plump body you weren't allowed to be too fat and you weren't allowed to be too thin so basically these pressures on women haven't changed um so they demand the specific kind of things that you have to be might have changed but there's been pressures at least since the 16th century and i think the 16th century was

particularly a kind of a flash point for a lot of these touches on women to be beautiful coming together. So give us a slimming tip. So you would sleep on a hard bed, be melancholy and have lots of arguments, this kind of thing. That kept you slim. But there was something I was reading about, you know, if you wanted bigger eyes. Oh, yeah.

So you should play ball games. I mean, honestly, some of the tips are not quite, you know, peer-reviewed. So you play ball games, sit in dark rooms and look at points of light, this kind of thing to make your eyes bigger. Also, you know, drink a lot of milk and things like that that was thought to make everything bigger in the body you know and things that we might think of as fattening today were understood to change the body's make-up and that means uh you know that affect it to make you more or less beautiful

at some of the outside influences i was really struck by the full-length mirror making an appearance. I guess I think of it as a modern invention, and I suppose I've often lived without one, but then thinking, you know, just the house didn't have one or whatever, that they had them in the 16th century. Yeah, so

before the 16th century, most mirrors were small convex mirrors, so they curved outwards, which doesn't give a true reflection of your face. And you can't really see your body in it at all. Then it was actually the late 15th century. They started to develop glass that was flat enough so you could have these full length mirrors for the very first time. So this is the first time that people were able to see their entire bodies reflected back at them. And it's interesting to think about what that meant in terms of self-awareness and how people see their own bodies and also criticize their own bodies.

So you do have the sense that people are more aware of what they look like and how other people see them in the 16th century than ever before. In the small mirror or the big mirror, they could see their noses. There were nose jobs. Yes. Yeah, I mean, poor nose. Lots of terrible things happened to people's noses, particularly women who were thought to have done something wrong, so have been adulterous or something like that. Often their noses were slashed or cut in some ways,

a sign of public shame but there was also nose reconstruction surgery starting in the 15th century and going right through to the 17th what they did was take a flap of skin from the bottom part of your upper arm and you'd have to sit with your elbow raised. And that flap of skin was joined to your face, bowed to your face to create a nose. And you'd sit with your elbow raised for several days until that graft effectively took. I want to talk about the relationship between men and women

because the men were making the pamphlets on beauty, as I understand understand that we'll be talking about whatever it is that you might decide to beautify yourself with but men were surprised when they realized that women actually enjoyed some of these beautifying procedures or would share that information with other women? Yeah so there's a long tradition of women sharing beauty recipes so people would make a lot of women sharing beauty recipes. So people would make a lot of these beauty products at home, things like hair dye, hair conditioner, moisturizer. Most of those were made at home and maybe made for female friends, female relatives.

But there's a big difference in literacy between men and women at this time. Printing starts in the late 15th century and starts to get really really popular in the 16th century and how-to books are a very popular genre and basically what happened in the early 16th century is that men took these recipes that were circulated amongst women in oral culture and printed them and so we have an insight into the kind of recipes that people were using but also men really berated women for caring about their beauty. So men wanted women to be beautiful, but they wanted them to be naturally beautiful. And so they invented all these rules.

And then when women tried to synthetically be beautiful, men would cross about it. But they also found that some women were using makeup in ways that men didn't approve of. So there's a great passage in one of these books where he says, why do women keep dying their hair red? Because, you know, men don't like their hair being red. And you see these wonderful portraits with women with these really bright red hairstyles. Or other women just choosing not to go down the blonde,

kind of curled hair route that other men liked and just choosing to have dark hair and dark hair was associated with argumentative women. Do you have a favourite? I know you've renaissance goo, you're creating recipes as well. If I was going to put something on my face that I might find at home, what would it be? It would be sheep's fat. I'm sorry, it sounds awful. Sheep's fat and tree gum anti-wrinkle cream, which actually feels really nice, like an anti-wrinkle cream you might get today. And the recipe is in my book, so you can make them at home.

Fascinating stuff. Professor Jill Burke was talking to Nuala, and that book with all the recipes, How to Be a Renaissance Woman, is out now. Now, yesterday was the start of the Edinburgh Fringe, the month-long festival that sees actors, artists, comedians, acrobats, writers, comedians, acrobats, writers, magicians, you name it, from all over the world

descend on Edinburgh and entertain thousands. It can be a tough life as a performer though. Competition is fierce and people are spoilt for choice. That's something actor and writer Georgie Greer learnt this week when she opened her one-woman play Sunsets out the Fringe

and only one person came to watch. Well, she posted about it on Twitter and the reaction was immense. She told me what happened on the night. It was actually someone I had met once, so I knew, and I messaged her and said... She even was! I know. I know. I kind of was like, would it have been better if I didn't know her, you know?

I'd met her once and she very kindly came after I messaged her asking if she could come. I walked on the stage and yeah, my first thought was I felt sorry for her because I didn't want her to have to sit through an hour of eye contact with me. But she was very gracious with her laughs. She laughed possibly at moments she didn't even find funny just to help me out. And then we eventually had some fun together as well. I think we need to shout out who this woman is. What's her name? She's the wonderful Sophie Craig, and she is also an actor as well. She has a wonderful play at Edinburgh Fringe as well. It was your first show. Tell me how you were feeling beforehand. I was nervous. It's preview week. So I knew it would be a struggle

for numbers. I had eight on the first day, five of which were again, people I'd asked to come along. So I was like, well, that was a really good turnout feeling, you know, optimistic, although I know it's a marathon, not a sprint, but each time again, you get nervous. And then there was a bit of a, a bit of a, um, a conversation outside of the theatre where my technician came out. And I was like, he's never normally out here. What's he doing? And it came to be that, you know, there was just one person there. And it was the fact that we were all kind of crowding outside of the theatre that was probably making it worse for poor Sophie in the theatre, who was just like, oh, God, it's just me in here. So, yeah, that was my first initial reaction,

was the panic that she would have to just be there with me on her own. I'm chuckling about it because I feel like we've got to a place, possibly, where we can. I don't know, I'm being very presumptuous. However, what did it feel like? I mean, you've put all this hard work in, and I guess it's the worst feeling. It's like when you throw a birthday party and you worry that no no one's going to come and this sort of happened you had one person

so what was the feeling when you stepped out on stage that's a great question it was obviously I was obviously quite upset as well but I knew it was preview week I knew it was going to be hard but you know there was some upsetness there. And I just thought, you know what, I have to get on with this. I have to treat this like a dress rehearsal. But then I think it all just came out afterwards. And that's when I had a cry, just because, as you say, I've put so much hard work into this play,

as do so many people across the fringe with their shows. And it was just a bit of a release afterwards once I was done with the laughs and Sophie and the play which also doesn't have laughs there's moments of non-laughter it was that release at the end I think it all sort of come to a peak as it were but I couldn't let it out completely on stage. I had to just go for it. Well, very professional of you to just say, right, let's get on with it, see it as a dress rehearsal. That's very good presence of mind to be able to just focus in that moment.

What made you want to tweet about it? I didn't want to call my mum crying. I didn't want her to have to go through that again. So I thought the hashtag Ed Fringe community on social media has been a really supportive place. And I thought, oh, you know, you know, might find a couple of other people who had one person might get some words of comfort from someone else, might be able to comfort someone else who had one person. I did not expect the level of reaction that I've had, Anita. It's been so lovely, so unexpected, so many words for what I've experienced. But yeah, I'm just so appreciative of the support.

Yeah. Well, look, we've had a tweet this morning from one of our listeners who said, author Tina McGuff, she says, I feel so bad for Georgie. Happened to me at a book talk the staff of the venue felt so bad they came to sit and listen so see that's amazing yeah there might be a few people listening to this who'd be thinking now is this just a crafty publicity stunt because last year robin granger who a comedian, launched his career off a post about how there was only one person at his show.

What would you say to those cynics? I would say I, as I said, just wanted someone to vent to who wasn't my mum. In that moment, I had tears in my eyes. I wasn't thinking about anything further than just needing a bit of a release and to not have to bother my mum, my dad and my sister. That's where I was coming from. And how has it made you feel about your show? Tell us about your show. Yeah, so my show is a one woman play about romantic comedies, but it fuses the worlds of movies and podcasts. So one woman is trying to reimagine her life like a romantic comedy while recording it all on a podcast but the question is will there be a happily ever after it also explores really a lot about family and also our

relationship to fantasy to the things we watch to the things the content we consume and how that impacts our reality I basically love movies and television and anything on our screens and I am so interested in stories about the ways in which we relate to the things we watch. Who doesn't love a rom-com sometimes? Who doesn't love a romance? I want to be in a movie of their own life. How do you feel about it now, though?

You know, it's preview week. You've had, what was it, eight people on day one. You're brilliant, mate, on day two. How has this been? is this been the most surreal week of your life this has I can't believe I'm here with you Anita this has just blown my mind but um but it's all about the show so how do you how do you feel now because you've got next week you're doing it how are you feeling about it have you lost your confidence has this boosted your confidence so I've got to do it for the rest of the month, including today.

I have to remind myself to go to the theatre shortly. But no, it's put a spring in my step for sure. But of course, there's no guarantee still of ticket sales. You know, I love the support, but I will never know who's there until I walk into that theatre and will be grateful if anyone turns up. Why did you want to write a one-woman play? There's quite a lot of pressure you've put on yourself here. Less production costs, just me. And I wanted to generate work for myself.

I'm an actor. It's been a quiet year. I've had a quiet other year as well. And I wanted to try and create a bit of agency for myself where i could i like i wanted to tell this particular story uh make people laugh maybe occasionally cry made myself cry in the end turns out but um yeah generate generate some work for myself really georgie greer there talking about her experience up at edinburgh let's hope she has a few more people come to watch her next week lots of you got in touch. Angela emailed in to say, As an actor and singer for 30 years,

I've spent my life performing to audiences of one, usually my dad. Some highlights, headlining an outdoor arts festival concert where only my dad and a distant cousin came. They sat alone with wine and picnics on deck chairs in a huge empty field while I sang to them. And when I finally hit the big time and was starring in a multi-million dollar musical, one night no one booked. So free tickets were given to industry people, about 20 turned up in a 2,000 seat theatre. They rudely sat on their hands,

didn't laugh, hardly applauded, such hard work. It felt like the air had been sucked out the room, but great camaraderie amongst the cast. We played games on stage, unknown to the sparse audience, and it ended up being our best show. And Simon said, I was in a comedy vocal harmony group called The Bee's Knees. We were booked by a working hens club to do an hour set. Unknown to us, there'd been a row between members and the committee

stopping children attending Saturday night entertainment, so it could be adults only. Everyone rebelled and nobody came. We treated it as a rehearsal and did our hour set. We did get paid. I want to take you back now to a time before the Saturdays, before the Sugar Babes, hey, even before the Spice Girls. It's the 1970s and feminism is on the rise.

And there was a television series called Rock Follies. It was about three women fed up with the male-dominated entertainment industry and told the story of Anna, Dee and Q, who took the future into their own hands and formed a rock band, the ironically named Little Ladies. The show was unusual in portraying strong female central characters and having an overtly feminist message. Now a new musical has been adapted from the series

and is currently on at the Chichester Festival Theatre. Well, Nuala was joined by Rula Lenska, who played the character Q in the original TV series, and Zizi Strallon, who's taken on the stage role. Rula told Nuala what Rock Follies meant to her. Well, it was completely life-changing for me. I mean, the big difference between us and the new Little Ladies is that they are all bona fide fantastic singers,

whereas in our series, Julie was the only one that was a trained, professional, magical singer, and the rest of us have to sort of bumble along as harmony queens. It was extraordinary, unique, adored instantly, and became an iconic show, which was sadly never repeated. So I'm hoping that on the back of this wonderful stage version, that they will re-release the teleseries. What about that? How did you decide how to play Q?

I mean, were you familiar with the Rock Follies before Hans Easy? Because the other work you've done is quite different. Yeah, it is quite different. Yes, I mean, I was on Women's Hour before for Mary Poppins. So and my role as Q is quite different to Mary Poppins. It's a different style of singing. She's a sort of altogether different character. I was aware of Rock Follies, but I hadn't seen any of it. So I did go and watch a few episodes. I, I looked up the sort of music videos on YouTube, sort of get a feel of it. But yeah, it was just gorgeous to watch.

And I've sort of, you know, you have to, as an actor, sort of put your own stamp on it. But Rula was definitely a big inspiration for sure. What about that, Rula? Listen, I am so proud to be part of this new vision of Follett's. I mean, one of the biggest differences with Q as I played her, and it was written that she believed that she was living out of her era. She wanted to be a topper girl.

Consequently, she wore 20s and 30s clothes, which is slightly different now, apart from I noticed your crochet waistcoat, which is very 70s. Yeah. Yes, but it brings you to the 70s. I mean, the outfits are amazing. The music is incredible. It's a musical and a rock concert and a play,

all kind of happening. Yeah, all at the same time. And people are having a blast when they're there. But the thing that really struck me, and Arula, you've alluded to this, is that it was groundbreaking at the time, but the same issues are still there all these years later. Male-dominated industry,

females still having to pay both physically and in every which way for being women. It's no easier than it was before. The conversations about homosexuality, the behaviour of the girls within their group in the first series, it's all about the little ladies against the world. And in the second series, it's the little ladies begin to break apart because of their very strong female, Kitty Schreiber, who takes them over.

And it's obviously there's more of the music than there is of the drama because there simply isn't time. Yes, yes. And I'm sure that is such a difficult thing to try and condense this series into this show. But it is, Cece, for people who, you know, haven't seen any of the clips from it, etc. How would you describe what it's like to perform during that show? Well, I mean, it's just fantastic to be part of a female trio and we sort of got each other's backs. And it's actually genuinely heartbreaking when we sort of all

dissipate in act two and and sort of I mean I I leave first um spoiler alert and uh you know and it's it it's it it but it's about finding your your self-worth and it's a lot about sort of women finding their own worth and and sort of up to, yes, like we've said, the male-dominated industry. But, you know, touching on what you said before, I think about showing how far we've still got to go, I think it shows how far we've come as well because I think the audience's reactions show that. You know, when we say things that maybe the men would have said back then,

the audience really reacts now, whereas they may have not even reacted before. So, and then obviously it shows how far we've still got to go. Can I just say that, I mean, the scripts were beautiful and the story written by Chloe now is brilliant. The lyrics of the songs, which you can hear beautifully, which you can't normally always do when you're watching musical theatre. But there are so many songs that are still, the one that springs to mind for me is The Things We Have To Do.

And also there's a number which isn't in it called The Wolf At The Door, where the first line is, when we began, we had a vision. And that vision now is rotten to the core. I mean, the way the women get exploited and their huge determination to stick together come thick or thin. Yes, it's like female friendship was the catalyst, I suppose, for the Rock Follies to come together. In the series, Rula, you made an album that was released,

which really quite something. Oh, it was so incredibly exciting. We went to number one with OK. The album went gold and platinum here and in Australia. I mean, we really did, or I certainly really felt I was part of a genuine rock band. That's what I wondered the whole time when I was watching it, because even the way you were able to step over the wires,

take the microphone, like, I mean, it is skill. What about that, Susie? Do you feel like you're part of a rock band? Absolutely. I mean, the wires have been a journey because... I was impressed. We're not used to them. So we've sort of had to make friends with them

and especially doing choreography with a big long mic wire. It's really tricky. In heels as well. They love to get wrapped around your heel. It does give you that authentic 70s feel of, yeah, I'm in a 70s all-female rock band. It is an amazing feeling. It really is.

What about an album? Oh, that would be very cool, wouldn't it? Don't you think, Ruma? Both side by side, the original recordings of the new cast recording. Oh, yes, I'm up for that. Yeah, that would be brilliant. I mean, I'm very lucky I get to sing the song OK, which was a big hit for the band.

That's sort of my big solo number. So I'm very lucky to be able to sing that song every night. I do feel like a rock star in that moment. Wonderful. Zizi Strallon and Rula Lenska. And Patricia emailed in to say, it was great to hear Rula, as I still have my Rock Follies albums

and whenever I'm cross or annoyed, play them very loudly on a very basic record player. Works every time. Cheers me up. No end. That's it from me. Make sure you join Claire Macdonald on Monday from 10. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.