Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Malala Yousafzai, Faulty breast implants, Petula Clark

Episode Date: November 1, 2025

Thrust onto the public stage at 15 years old after the Taliban’s brutal attack on her life, Malala Yousafzai became an international icon for resilience and bravery. Described as a reflection on a life of a woman finally taking charge of her destiny, her memoir Finding My Way has just been published. She joins Anita Rani in the Woman’s Hour studio.There's a call to compensate women caught up in the scandal of faulty breast implants manufactured by a French company. The PIP scandal happened in 2012 when it emerged that the implants were filled with industrial silicone instead of medical grade silicone. The implants are far more likely to rupture than others. MPs on the Women’s and Equalities Committee have been hearing calls for compensation during their inquiry into the health impacts of breast implants and other cosmetic procedures. Jan Spivey from PIP Action Campaign and Professor Carl Heneghan from The Centre for Evidence Based Medicine join us to discuss this.What if all your dreams come true and you still find yourself a bit grumpy? That’s the brilliantly blunt question at the heart of Laura Smyth's stand-up tour, Born Aggy. Laura’s journey into comedy wasn’t exactly textbook. She left behind a career in teaching, was diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer that same year and - just two weeks after finishing treatment - was on stage in Live at the Apollo. She joins Nuala McGovern in the studio.Choreographer and artist Amina Khayyam tells Anita about her new dance-theatre work, Bibi Rukiya’s Reckless Daughter, which opens soon in London after a national tour. It explores how patriarchy is enforced not only by men, but across generations of women, within family structures.Singer, actor and performer, Petula Clark’s career has spanned over eight decades. She sang to wartime troops in the 40s, was a 1950s child star, became a European musical icon before conquering America with her No 1 hit Downtown. She starred in Hollywood movies alongside Fred Astaire and performed on stage in musicals including The Sound of Music, Sunset Boulevard and most recently Mary Poppins. Her autobiography - Is That You, Petula? is out now and she joins Nuala to look back at her long career.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Simon Richardson

Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up, highlights from The Woman's Hour Week. Comedian Laura Smith on career success, overcoming cancer and making peace with still being grumpy. We hear about a new call to compensate women caught up in the scandal of faulty breast implants. Choreographer Amina Kayam discusses her new dance piece about being a reckless daughter and Petula Clark on The Secret to a Joyful Life at the Age of 92. I love what I do. I love music. I think I'm privileged all these years to have been doing what I love.

You know, how many people can say that. And the energy that comes back to me from the audience is two-way traffic. It's a very exciting thing to do. I can't imagine my life without it. Without music and garlic, if you really want to know. Singer, actor and performer, Petula Clark coming up shortly. Lots of inspirational stories on the program. But we begin with Malala Yousafzai,

who joined me on Woman's Hour yesterday. Malala was thrust onto the public stage at 15 years old after the Taliban's brutal attack on her life in 2012. Following this, she became an international icon for resilience and bravery, going on to become the youngest ever Nobel Peace Prize recipient at just 17. Her funny, enlightening, thoughtful memoir finding my way has just been published and we began by talking about the dream that drove her for many years to get an education and to go to university.

I did not take my education for granted because I was only 11 years old when I saw a ban on girls' education by the Taliban and I knew I had to become an activist to fight for my right to be in school because I could not see a future without an education. Fast forward, you know, I was attacked for daring to speak out about it and I became a global activist after that. But when I went to university and when I finished my education, that's the moment when I felt that I had won. Actually, I succeeded in my mission to make my childhood dream come true.

That was to be able to graduate from a university and it was a personal inner victory that I felt. Where did that dream come from when no one around you had been to university? Where does that inspiration and aspiration come from? Where did it come from for you? For me, it was more of a survival than a dream because I had seen around me how girls without an education could not make their dreams come true.

They all wanted to be either doctors or teachers. They wanted to make a living for themselves. But because of the cultural norms, education was either discouraged or there were not enough schools for girls. So I come from the north of Pakistan and in a lot of parts of Pakistan, education is still a big challenge for girls. So I just thought, like, my life would be very different if I don't go to school.

I might have a similar story to other girls being forced into marriage at an early age and then expecting to be making kids and just, like, being limited to the four walls of the house. And I just could not imagine that for myself. And when the Taliban imposed a ban on girls' education, that's when I realized that education is so, powerful for women's empowerment, that the first thing that the oppressors take away from women and girls is their education. That's where they begin. Rebellion is a big theme in the book, something people may not expect of you, but it's always been there. So tell me about this side of you and then thinking about sort of you as a child. Yeah, I often say that, firstly, I wanted

to be a normal student, but then I also wanted to be a more rebellious, cooler student than others. You talk about one late-night experience with a university friend. trying at marijuana and how that propelled you into a really terrifying place. Can you describe what happened to you, but also how you came through it? Yeah. So firstly, you know, these things are very common, but this was like my first time seeing a bong. So I had never seen it before. And this became my first and last time.

That's a disclaimer I want to make because I thought this would be a fun night. And, you know, the first time I attempted to inhale it, I coughed and on the second attempt, when I inhaled it, it went inside my body and that's when everything changed because immediately in that moment, I froze and I was reliving the time that I was living after I was attacked by the Taliban and I was in a coma for a week. I had these repeated images and flashbacks of the Taliban killing me and it just happened again and again and again. And now, like seven years later, out of nowhere, because of this bong incident, I was reliving all of those flashbacks. I was, I think I was paranoid. I could

not move. I was shaking. And I was so scared to sleep as well because I thought if I closed my eyes, I will never wake up. And after that, I started getting panic attacks. I had anxiety. I was not being myself anymore. Even my friends started noticing. And my friends were very kind. They offered sleepovers just to help me through it. But then it was finally a friend of mine after a few months that she suggested that I see a therapist. And that's when I started considering therapy.

And it changed everything for me. Yeah. I found that bit of the book. So, I mean, there's so much in it. You take us on this beautiful story of friendship and coming of age. And then you really, you're so hit so. hard by this part of the book because you're so honest and so vulnerable about your mental health and the struggles. Why was it important for you to put that in the book? You know, I have always

been defined as brave and courageous so much that I internalized it. And when I recovered from the Taliban incident at age 15, for me, it was all about physical recovery. I can walk, I can talk. I think I'm feeling good. And now I'm on this journey to advocate. for girls globally, what we did not consider at the time was therapy. I was actually offered a therapist, but I said no because I thought, like, it's a sign of a weakness. And, you know, in Pakistan, growing up, we had never really heard about therapy. And usually the mental health topic would be, you know, sort of discouraged or there's a

stigma attached to it. And I'm sure a lot of people in South Asia would be familiar with that. Is there even a word for anxiety? Say? No, not in like my local Pashto language. And this was, you know, like now when I look back, I think this therapy was this unaddressed part of my treatment that we had left behind. So I started therapy seven years later, but I think it was still not late. And I'm glad that I started receiving therapy. And I remember in my first therapy session, I asked the therapist, you know, like, okay, like, what's the cure? I told her all my problems and I said give me the medication now give me the cure exactly fix it but you know she reminded me that it will take time we will walk through these things and you know with time it gets smaller and smaller and she was very right like it's time that's really helpful it's the experts the professional support that's really helpful and and I had to talk about it because I was thinking

that there might be somebody out there who might not be aware of this or who you know made think that it's a sign of a weakness to them. So, you know, in this, in this time, I felt that I had failed to live up to the expectations of being brave and courageous and that if I am scared from nothing, then that means that I'm not being true to myself. But I realize that actually we need to redefine bravery. And it's when you still do what you believe in, even when you're not. are scared. I have not only been reading your book, but I've also been listening

to you as well, which is a wonderful experience to hear because you're such a great orator, so to hear you in my ears as well as read you. I was walking down Tottenham Court Road the other day with tears in my eyes. And I'll tell you the bit that it was when you returned to Pakistan for the first time. And you visit your grandma and your best friend. Yes. How was that experience? You talk about your grandma with such love. Yes, and I was very, very close to my grandma, and I wanted to see her. It had been five years since we had to leave Pakistan, and I wanted to see home because I always felt that there was something missing.

I could not connect the life that I was living right now, traveling around the world, and this life that I had in Pakistan, I wanted it to reconnect. And we had tried to go back to Pakistan many, many times, but there was always something happening, a political issue, a rally, a protest, and I told my dad that. But if we are waiting for the right or the perfect time to go to Pakistan when everything is fine, we will never find it. So regardless, like, I'm getting my ticket and I'm going to Pakistan. I met my school friend, Muniba, and, you know, she was on the school bus with me. Yes.

And I always have asked her many, many times, does she remember what happened? Because I do not actually, like, recall the incident. That's what I think. And she would just, you know, tell me each time how. she saw everything, but what she told me on this trip was that, you know, when everything happened, she was terrified for weeks, and she thought, like, she might have been attacked as well. And what I realized, that, you know, I was living the physical pain and the scars of the injury, and she was living the memory of it. She had seen it. She was covered in your blood,

wasn't she when she went home, yeah. And she told me that I had, like, held her hand so tight that she felt the pain for days and she was scared she could not even like sleep on her own anymore she had to sleep with her mom and so like the you know all the girls went through a lot two of my other friends who were also attacked by the Taliban bullets on that day they're now in adembra they're studying they like they finished their nursing and they are doing amazing things but so many girls on that day on the bus saw so many terrible things but I was just so happy that everybody was now getting their education and everybody was doing well. So that trip to Pakistan gave me a sense of completion and I felt relieved.

I felt happier and I was so happy that I saw my home and my family and everybody. It's a really moving part of the book as well. What do you see your role as now? Wow, that's a big. An activist? Yeah. Yes. You know, I am an activist and girls' education is my life's mission.

I started Malala Fund many, many years ago and today we are working with local education activists, including in countries like Nigeria, Pakistan, Brazil, Afghanistan, like Tanzania, Ethiopia and many other places. And, you know, right now I'm thinking about girls in Afghanistan because it's the only country in the world where girls are banned from education beyond grade six. women are not allowed to go to universities or work or be in the parliament. And it's not that things were perfect for Afghan women, but they had worked for 20 years to get something for themselves to have their rights and to have a representation in society. And all of that was taken away from them when the Taliban took over. So it's been more than four and half years.

And things are getting worse and worse day by day. I had a conversation with Afghan girls on Zoom who are part of these underground schools and they were telling me that they are still determined to keep learning at home and one girl told me that even in her room when she picks up a book and she reads and she learns,

she feels that it's a form of resistance against the Taliban. So I think Afghan women activists they need more solidarity and support what's happening in Afghanistan is a form of a gender apartheid and it is systemic oppression and I think we need to stand with them because it's not just about women's and girls' rights in Afghanistan

but it's about women and girls everywhere. A frank open and honest conversation with Malala Yusuf Tsai. Her memoir, Finding My Way, is available now. Next, there's been a new call to compensate women caught up in the scandal of faulty breast implants manufactured by a French company. It's become known as the PIP scandal, or poly implant prophesis,

in the name of the manufacturer who fraudulently filled implants with industrial silicone instead of medical-grade silicone. The implants are far more likely to rupture than others, and women fitted with them say they've caused a list of health problems. Women in the UK were alerted to this

back in 2012, but campaigners say they could and should have been told earlier. MPs on the Women's Equality Committee have been hearing this during their inquiry into the health impacts of breast implants and other cosmetic procedures. On Wednesday, Krupa Pardy spoke to two people who gave evidence at the ongoing inquiry,

Professor Carl Hennigan from the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine and Jan Spivey from the PIP Action Campaign. Professor Hennigan told her why he thinks women affected should get compensation. People who will be aware recently if you had a car loan up till about 2017, that the Financial Conduct Authority has said, basically we're going to compensate people for mis-selling of loans.

Now, what that key has done is said somebody is responsible, but it's also said, actually, I don't think this is going to happen again because the consequences of that going badly wrong are going to lead to a massive compensation that's going to cost $8.2 billion. So we live in a society where if you have a car and you misssold a loan, you treated more seriously than a woman who has an implant that is seriously gone wrong, not in a, oh, you were missold alone and lost some money, you have an implant that has industrial-grade silicone

that should never have got through the regulatory process and should never have been implanted in women. So if we don't hold somebody accountable, there's nothing to stop this happening again. Who should be doing the compensating, though? if you think it's the NHS, surely there are budgetary concerns there? This is a failure of regulation. So it comes straight from our MHRA. So it's a governmental responsibility.

I mean, the proportion of pip implants that were put in by the NHS is small, but it's still significant. So I think we're looking here at a governmental responsibility that our systems of regulation are just not safe and not fit for purpose. And this is the really scary thing, is that this could happen all over again. Let me bring, Jan, you into the conversation. You've campaigned about this for a very long time since 2012. You yourself have had the implants fitted.

When the news of this fraud broke in the UK, just explain what steps are in place, what reaction it received, especially compared to France. I received PIP implants as well. part of my breast cancer reconstructive surgery that I had with the NHS. And the difference between the way that the UK reacted in contrast to France is really stark. So when the police raided the PIP factory in Marseilles, that took place in March of 2010. And it wasn't much later until just before Christmas in 2011

that news about the planned French response reached the UK, saying that women were likely to be recalled. In France, PIP were recognised as a public health emergency and that very significant delay of almost two years in the UK resulted in a far less supportive reaction, and women were left to fund their own removals. They were told that the risks of the implants were very low, even though they contained this industrial-grade silicone.

And the lack of urgency in care has had lasting consequences for thousands of women in the UK. And as I mentioned, you yourself have had the PIP implants fitted. What impact has this had on you personally? Since PIP, I've learned my own implants were sent for analysis in Italy, and it was discovered that my implants didn't have what's known as an anti-bleed barrier, which meant that as soon as those implants were my body, they were leaking silicone into my system. And I've had very serious health consequences, including a failed recovery from breast cancer. Silicon migration is a major issue with these implants. In my case, my implants didn't have to rupture for those in effects to start affecting me, which happened practically immediately.

But my implants were leaking for many years and I was sick like many women for many years before the issue really came to light. This is what the Department of Health told us. They said patient safety remains our top priority and we are working with the MHRA to ensure. sure we are protecting the health and well-being of patients, including a cosmetic breast augmentation risk awareness tool to keep patients informed. What do you make of that, Carl? I just think that the statement is messaging and marketing to try and put us off the main message here. A gentleman that was dead right about the France, but I want to also mention the US system. Back in 2000, the US FDA did an inspection of the plant and discovered huge problems with manufacturing

processes, and they then sent a letter to the PIP manufacturers in 2000. What that meant is the company to cover it up decided not to sell it in the USA. So the USA, you don't hear about PIPP in Blitz because it didn't get out there. And then there was a 10-year gap where they were free to put this on the market. So they're huge disparities between a system like the US FDA, which is much more rigorous about patient safety and our system. And so, Carl, are you saying that it should be the regulator's responsibility to spot criminal activity here? Yeah, let me give you one example.

In America, they require a clinical trial to approve these products. Here, you can use what's called equivalence. My product's a bit similar to what's already on the market. As Jan said, what you can do is make subtle changes. Actually, what they did do is reduce the cost by 90% by using the industrial-grade silicone. and nobody got notified by that at the regulator. Can you imagine making such a big change and it wasn't legally required for you to notify the MHRA, for instance?

This is how lax our system is. And so that loophole allows you to produce products that lead to what's called this gel bleed and these small micro-silicon that leak into your body and then it's years before you notice the problem. I want to probe a bit more as to why, the situation, the concerns about PIP implants might not be taken seriously enough if that is the case. And Jan, I'll turn to you. In your case, you have the implants for medical for health

reasons. Others choose to do it for cosmetic reasons. Do you think that plays a part in the way this conversation is unfolding? I don't think that it's appropriate to start dividing women into groups as to whether or not they deserve care or medical attention when they clearly do have medical requirements related to these implants. Carl, what is the treatment available both on the NHS and around the world when it comes to women who have these implants? What's available to them? Well, I'll tell you one thing that should be available mandatory is what they recommend in America. If you have one of these implants, you should have an MRI scan three years after the first implant and one every two years from there on. So you get regular follow-up. And those MRI scan

can spot these problems as they emerge before it's too late. Now the problem with the MRI scans is that cost more than the actual implant in the initial phase. And so this is if we were being appropriate about patient safety, what we should now be doing is enacting a monitoring plan where we now say, look, we're going to do these MRI scans and we're going to make sure patients are safe, but incredibly important, that they're informed at the same time about the risks. But those scans, Carl, will cost money and everything comes down to money, doesn't it? Yeah, but look, let's put it this way. The time lag between exposure and harms is what will happen is those harms will increase over time. So for instance, there's a particular thing with this new

textured implant, which is a certain type of lymphoma. It takes about 10 years for it to develop. So as you wait longer and longer, the cost consequences will get greater and greater. And so the sort of do-nothing approach, I tell you, will just end up costing you much, much more money in the end. The MHRA has said in a letter to an MP that they worked with the NHS and other health partners to ensure the PIP issue was properly investigated. And the authority added that it is important to note that while PIP implants are associated with a higher risk of rupture, which can lead to symptoms such as tenderness or swollen lymph glands, that there is no evidence linking ruptured PIP implants to serious long-term health issues.

Carl, what do you think of that? Anybody who says no evidence is basically saying we've systematically failed to take this seriously and collect the right data and the right evidence. This is an area that's under-researched. The original 2012 report had lots of limited. and at the time they said they made safety messages that weren't backed up by the evidence. We now find ourselves 10 plus years later without a systematic approach to assessing the harms. The last really substantial report was 13 years ago.

There's been no update since, so nobody can tell you when they say no evidence. They're basically saying, yes, there is no evidence. Therefore, everything is uncertain. We can't inform you. We have a culture which seems to be when it comes to harm, to being dismissive. I want to put this Department of Health statement to you. They say we are also taking decisive action to crack down on rogue operators putting people's

health and well-being at risk. New regulations will ensure only properly qualified healthcare professionals can perform the highest risk cosmetic procedures. For anyone with breast implants or considering breast implant surgery, it's important to understand the risks and speak to their healthcare professional about any symptoms or questions. Jan, they seem to think that maybe there is no need for this current inquiry. What are you hoping to achieve?

From the inquiry, I would really like to see justice and recognition for the women that are affected and a commitment that this will never happen again. We need an update of that 2012 report and we also need a full investigation into the long-term effects that PIP is having and much more really needs to be done now. to fill the void that has existed for 13 years. That was Jan Spivey from PIP Action Campaign and Professor Carl Hennigan from the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine. Now, what if all your dreams come true

and you still find yourself a bit grumpy? That's a brilliantly blunt question at the heart of Laura Smith's upcoming comedy tour. It's called Born Aggie. Laura's journey into comedy wasn't exactly textbook. She left behind a career in teaching, was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer that same year, and just two weeks after finishing treatment,

she was on stage at Live at the Apollo. When she came into the studio on Tuesday, she explained to Nula why being grumpy, being agi, as she puts it, can actually be a superpower. I think, I don't want to be too, you know, black and white or binary about it, but I think women are very good at thinking about the good of the group.

You know, I think in terms of, I think it impacts our careers. I think it impacts everything. I think we enter us or any space and think what does everyone need? You know, rather than actually what do I need? And often when you have someone and I have friends like this,

when you have anyone that just calls something out, calls out an injustice, calls out a meeting that's just going on too long and everyone's just talking for the sake of it without action, when someone claps their hands together and go, right, I think we've talked about this enough, actually. Shall we move on? Everyone dissolves in relief, don't they?

So it is a superpower to get the hump And sometimes I do so much sort of self-help and therapy To try and be kumbaya And actually sometimes you just want someone to go Yeah, you're spot on And you can make a whole show about it Oh, of course Look, I'll wear my themes loosely

When I do any sort of show But it's more just the fun of like It makes me laugh That like I'm happily married My kids are all in a good place I'm doing my absolute dream career And then within that You're healthy

I'm very healthy thank God I'm healthy yeah you know which and that's really funny that's really funny being ill and anyone knows with a cancer diagnosis you think I've got it or I ain't and they're going to do it they're going to cure it or they're not and I thought it'd be bish bash

but what you don't realise is that for a good few years you're stuck in bish yeah yeah limbo bish yeah bish bish and you just go okay I'm all right they've taken both breasts they've taken my ovaries I'm still on hormone blockers that might contribute to the aginess I won't lie so yeah

And you're still here, and I kind of, yeah, and then you think, I want to give thanks. And there's so many times when you get over an illness where you're meant to just be grateful for being in, you think, yeah, I've still got the hump, though. But maybe the way to think about it, if you're born, Aggie, getting back to yourself is being a bit Aggie instead of being all flowers and rainbows. Absolutely. Do you know, you need it. It's like when you're trying to get on a packed tube and people aren't moving down, you just want some old lady to go, And you're like, oh, good, yes. Someone's taking action here. It is often an older woman who's ready to put us in our place. And I am asking about grumpy old women, do they get a worse peer than grumpy old men?

Oh, no, I think grumpy women are absolutely gross. I think women are allowed to be grumpy. And that's another thing with age. I don't identify as fully grumpy because I'm too young and cute. Just aggie. Just aggie, yeah, yeah. Aggie's a funnier word. It's just a little bit more aggressive.

I like it. Now, before comedy, let's take a step back. You were a teacher. When I started looking, you know, it's a theme among comedians. You've got Greg Davis leaving education, Jennifer Saunders, somebody I know you love as well. And I understand it was actually one of your own teachers who inspired you to get into education.

That was when you were in your early 20s and you had your daughter. Oh, yeah. This is, oh my God. Rachel Moore, Miss Moore, my A-level English teacher, who I really often can't talk about about getting upset. I bumped into her, actually. Now I got a B at A level English

and which felt like just an abject failure to me because it was my favourite thing in the world and I didn't feel brave enough to go and do an English degree so when I first went off to do a degree I did economics and philosophy at the University of Sheffel which was the last thing I should have done. I like maths but I thought and I left and I had a baby

and I thought oh gosh and my confidence was so low I thought you know I never envisaged being a single mum and I was just being I was in temporary accommodation and I bumped into my old A level English teacher I was in my early 20s and my little one was about two or three, my Rosie. And I was at the legislature centre and she went, oh, what are you doing?

I said, oh, bums, thumbs and thighs. And she went, no, with life like that. And I said, oh, you know, I'm just a mum. And she just said it so sternly like a good teacher. Why aren't you doing an English degree? And I was like, oh, and it just gave me this confidence that my teacher, who I got into my head that I'd let down by only getting a B, mostly because I had to read the Dubliners in the exam because I couldn't get through it when I should have been all prepared. But it just gave me this confidence.

And I remember saying to my housing officer at the time, Julia Fari, I love her. She was amazing. She looked into how I could access a degree whilst I was still, you know, on the temporary accommodation and going through the sort of benefit system. And we worked it out. And I went back and did an English degree and got a first class honours and then became an English teacher. And that was because Miss Moore told me off. Well, congratulations on that. But you did decide the teaching wasn't the career for you,

even though you had a captive audience every day. And you left teaching. Yeah. But then the pandemic happened. And of course, you got a cancer diagnosis as well. Oh, it was all wild because, yeah, yes. So I started teaching and then I met my husband and I had more children. And I feel like I achieved just being baseline, normal and stable.

And as soon as I got that, I thought, well, actually, actually this isn't what I really want to do, you know, and this feeling that I'd always wanted to be a stand-up my whole life. I wanted to do it. So I did start that in 2019 and it went great guns for a year. You know, like I'd won the Funny Women Awards really early. I'd got signed by a big agent and everything was going swimmingly. And then this pandemic happened.

And as soon as we, and I was teaching online and as soon as the pandemic finished and I went back into work, it was March 2021, not really finished, but March 2021. And I thought, I just had to hand in my notice. You know, I just knew I was done with it because I think teaching is the best profession in the world and it deserves all of you. And I think I knew I couldn't give it my all.

So I handed my notice. And it was more than just the year, the September, I didn't go back to school, September 2021, within a week or two, I found the lump on my breast. So this kind of, I'd had it twice where I felt like I got kicked back into place. Once when I started comedy and then the whole world shut down. And then once when I left teaching,

ready to go for it, I had this devastating diagnosis and I couldn't make sense of it, to be honest, it flawed me. And as we talked about stage three and you are healthy now, I'm very glad to hear that. But some people might be surprised that two weeks after your treatment ended, you were on stage at Live of the Apollo. How did that happen? Well, because I'm such a brilliant comedian, I suppose. That's why it happened. Correct. Well, it's really funny. I, you just have little things that keep you going in your head in the darkest days of chemo and it really is a head game chemo as well as the you know the physical beating up that you get are two things sustain me in my sort of darkest moments where I couldn't lift myself up well one was a beach in

kephalonia that I wanted to visit and I had a picture of it on my fridge because I really wanted to go there and two was stepping out stage on live at the Apollo and just at the end of August when I just finished all the radio therapy I got a call from my agent actually saying you didn't get live with the Apollo and oh it just didn't feel that that didn't feel correct to me she went but apparently you were really close and I thought oh and then and I went oh that's fine that's fine actually that's fine because I don't look great you know I'm not really myself yet and then within about a week she said oh look someone's had to pull out and they really do want you so you really close and my agent and I who were both a bit which you were went yeah that feels better doesn't it you know that feels

right and everyone always asks oh how does that feel because it's my absolute dream and they And I always tell them I decided to enjoy it. You know, there's loads of gigs I've done where, what I call it, I left it all in the green room. I get so excited. Yeah. But, you know, you fluff the first time you did a comedy store or something like that. So I thought, well, no, I just decided to enjoy it.

And I stepped out on that stage and my husband was in the audience. And he said, you just did this daft little dance. And I thought, oh, she's enjoying her. Yeah, yeah. And it was about the week after the queen died. So I thought it might be cancelled. Yeah. So I thought, don't mess with me.

Because you've had a number of light. World events that kind of decides the path that you'll go on. So the show is in 2026. Yes. Have you finished? Are you done? Have you written everything? No. No, it's never done. It's always a living, breathing thing. That's why it's so magic. So I am doing work in progresses. It's on tour. It's on sale now. You can go through my website, laurrasmith.com. And then it all starts in September next year. So there'll be loads of work in progress shows.

But I'm a club comedian. So there will not be a joke in that tour that wouldn't, you know, bang on a Saturday night. in a comedy club. You know, it's not all storytelling. It's just I like jokes. But it's fun. It's just talking about everything. You know, being a mum, coming from a big family, all those dynamics. You know, it's all the similar themes and all the fun stuff.

It's being married and all the fun and games of that. So there's always just things presenting themselves, you know, constantly. Laura's tour, born at Aggie, is taking place across the UK in 2026 and tickets are available now. Still to come on the program, Petula Clark tells us about her long career and the experiences that made her. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Next, a fascinating conversation I had on Thursday with British Bangladeshi choreographer and artist Amina Kayam.

Her new dance theatre work, Bibi Rukia's reckless daughter, opened soon in London after a national tour and explores how patriarchy is enforced not only by men, but across generations of women within family structures. The piece uses the North Indian dance style Kathak and Amina began by explaining to me what it's all about. So Katak is a South Asian dance style practiced in Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and worldwide as I am the example of that. And it's a storytelling form, started off as a storytelling form and then over the kind of millennia when the Mongol rulers came to

India, they kind of took it on board as a storytelling form and then they've transformed into a fully-fledged dance form. But in terms of visual spins, footwork, music of course, light music, costuming, lighting, everything. So the story is

about Bibi Rokia and she's a complex figure. She's a widow who confines her three daughters in response to societal pressure to protect her family's reputation and to secure their marriages. How did your show start life? Where did this idea come from?

Why did you want to tell this story? I grew up with those stories, really. I grew up, I come from those communities and over the last 15 years I've been working with different groups of communities in UK and discovering stories within those communities that, well, usually they're not heard. I mean, we see these kind of communities floating around London

all the time, but we don't know nothing about them. and there was a judgment about them as well. And I think one of the thing I wanted to do is to work with these same women to hear their stories and hear how this particular theme affect their lives. So I grew up with a lot of issues of women, seeing my mother, seeing my aunties, seeing, you know, my sisters. Like what? Like what? Okay.

Because the play is about patriarchy and how women, as we know, they fly the flag. Exactly. Exactly. Totally. And that's exactly what the piece is about, looking at why women fly that flag for men and why do they do it to each other. Why they're so severely, I would say, they were nasty really, very cruel to each other. And I think that goes back centuries. It's the conditioning of the women. You know, women want allowed to do a lot. I just wanted to look at what has patriarchy has done to generations of women and how that has conditioned us to be. believe this is the norm and this is how it should be. So therefore, we impose all those thoughts onto other women, particularly on our daughters. So example will be like even my own story, my mom. You know, she desperately wanted to leave my father. And I came to her age when I was a teenage. I said, okay, I'm going to help you.

And I did all this, everything that I could do to help her. And did she leave? Of course not. The pressure, the pressure of not, you know, like what would happen to your daughter? particularly when you've got so many daughters, you know, nobody will marry them, nobody will look at them. If she's a divorced mother. Exactly, exactly. And she stayed until the end when he died.

How did they feel about you wanting to become a dancer? It wasn't very good. It's still not very good. My mom still asks me, when are you going to get a real job? She still asks me that even now. Has she seen the show? She has. The title is really interesting, reckless daughter.

Why did you want to call it reckless daughter? Goodness, where can I start? I mean, we, you know, there is always somebody in the family, especially when you go so many daughters, are trying to rake the boat. And I have to say I was one such daughter, was quite adamant of wanting to do what I wanted to do and have my own voice and own kind of identity. And it was, it was hard both living in a culture where racism was really rife at that time. So being the only non-white people living there was quite difficult. At the same time, you know, I have no connection to my own culture either. So it was kind of a conflict thing going on with me.

And then when I discovered about dance, I say in my late teens, I literally sneaked out and went to those classes. A beautiful Indian classical dance form that is classical and is one of a few in South Asia. But the Victorians demonized it. Yeah, I think when the British rule India, they banned all the styles. I mean, I wouldn't say they were known as class. classical then, because they were just dance. And so when they were banned, although they banned them, but they used them for their own

entertainment. And I think one of the things that keeps coming up about dance, because dance is always at the bottom of the pile when it comes to engaging in the arts. And that's because of the reputation that it has of being, you know, used and abused and trafficked as well for entertainment. But I think that's changing now, definitely. changing. What's the response from the audience been? It's been amazing. The audience are, most of the audience who come to see it, particularly women who we have been engaging

with anywhere prior to the show. So we do a series of workshop with them where they explore the theme of the project and also share their own experience of the same subject. And they also perform themselves. So we have a something called Performance Forum Lab where we engage with the women and women explore the subject and then they perform something from that, you know, from exploration and then beyond that we then take those stories and then make a work with professional dances and musicians yeah and it's about a woman trying to control her daughters it is that and it's just looking at how but it's not necessarily demonizing the mother character mother is also conditioned to do what she does exactly she enforces she knows no better exactly and she you know

she enforces those patiacal rule for who that's the that's what we've been yeah discussing well yeah and But also maybe she's trying to protect her daughters. She thinks that. That's what it is, isn't it? It's all about, I mean, her intention is good. But you end up having so much issues. Like, you know, while I was working, there was a young woman who committed suicide for exactly the same reason within that community.

So can you, without obviously name me any names? Sure, sure. So the story goes that she, university student, wasn't allowed to go to university, to, sorry, allowed to leave home to study. She has to come back home. But her life was made held by the parents because she went to university, they're going to lose her

or they're going to, she's going to bring shame to the family. So they really controlled her. And I think it was just too much for her in the end. That's incredibly sad, incredibly sad, which is why it's important to tell these stories. And you want to reach those communities. Absolutely. And young women and young men as well.

But I do reach the community. and they do come and see the show, particularly the women that I work with. So if you do come and see the show, you will see them in the audience. I mean, have you had to live with? I mean, you've broken free. I mean, you're one of these so-called breakfast daughters.

Did you have to live with shame? Have you come to terms with her? Is your mum okay? Of course, but I think I also, I was quite in tune with a lot of the stuff quite early on in my life, and I think that's why I did what I did. But at the same time, I love my mom to death, you know,

and she has done her. best. And I understand how more. As I get older, I understand her decisions more and more. I'm intrigued to know, only because it's so personal to me. I know my mom won't mind me saying this, but I had a conversation with my mom about conditioning and, you know, patriarchy. And I said, you brought me up my entire life saying, you must do this, otherwise they will say this. You must do that. Otherwise, they will say that. And I sat in front of her. This was really recent. And I said, Mama, answer me one question. Who are they? And she looked at it. me and said, no one. No one. So I wonder if you've had us, have you talked to your mom about

it? I've never really had a conversation with her about this because I think it's a very difficult conversation. First of all, my mom never studied. She's not literate. And she has got that very insular understanding of life, which is between those four walls and what she's been told, both from religious perspective and culturally. So she never really reached out. out or went out of that doorstep, if you like, to discover more life. And I remember recently I took her to this woman, sort of this gathering locally. And she said, I wish I learned English. Why didn't I do it?

There you go. So she has those feelings there. But saying all of that stuff, she did really try to her best to, you know, educate us because she wasn't educated. She struggled for that as well. Yeah. And that's, but she has brought up a remarkable. young daughter, who's doing amazing stuff. So, you know, there is that.

Well, I hope so. Thank you. Amina Kiyama and Bibi Rukia's reckless daughter is on at the place in Kings Cross and then on tour around the UK. Finally today, singer, actor and performer Petula Clark's career has spanned over eight decades. She sang to wartime troops in the 40s, was a 1950s child star, becoming a European musical icon, and then conquering America. with her number one hit, Downtown. She starred in Hollywood movies alongside Fred Astor

and performed on stage in musicals, including The Sound of Music, Sunset Boulevard, and most recently, Mary Poppins. Now at 92, Petula has published her autobiography. Is that you, Petula? She spoke to Noola recently, who began by asking her about the title of the book. It was a quote from someone quite famous.

The story begins in Montreal in 1969. I was doing a series of concerts that's there, the Place Les Arts. When I first went to Montreal to sing, I was booked as a French performer because I'd had a lot of hits in French, and they'd seen me on French television. And then a few years later, downtown happened

and all those wonderful hit songs after that. You know, when they asked me back to Montreal, I thought, oh, great, I'll do a bilingual show. It was open war in the theatre. When I sang in English, it was awful. And it wasn't friendly. kind of jousting instead it was. They were serious.

And I didn't realize at the time, but it was a very delicate moment in their history. I was very upset. I used to come offstage in tears. And I had read that John Lennon was in town. And I didn't know John Lennon. But I thought, I need to speak to somebody about this, who you know who maybe give me some advice.

So I thought, I'll go and see John Lennon. It was pouring with rain, of course. I left the theatre. the door of his apartment was open. And there they were, John and Yoko, in bed. Now, this was a bed-in. I don't know if any of you remember that. For some of our younger listeners,

they may not remember when they would take to the bed. Well, yes, they used to do interviews in bed. You know, it was for peace. Yes. Anyway, standing there in the doorway, dripping mascara, running down my face. And John looks up, squints a bit, and he looks it.

Is that you, Petula? Really, what a ridiculous scene. They said, come here love, you know. And so I did. And we had a long chat about it all. And he gave me some advice, which I can't repeat on the radio. Okay. Now I'm intrigued.

I can't give you that quote. That's wonderful. I mean, it just shows just a snapshot of this extraordinary life you have had. and the life you have led and some of those people. And you were a singer for so long. I didn't realize how young you were when you started. Do you want to tell us about your first performance? I don't know exactly how old I was.

There's a lovely picture of me at the BBC. I'm looking at it. The book just opened on it. There you go. Standing on a box. Singing Ave Maria for the BBC at the Criterion Theatre, which is not far from where we're sitting right now, in 1942. too. Oh, my goodness. Well, yes, that's when I did my first radio performance at the Criterion

theatre, which is still here, of course. It's right in the middle of Piccadilly. It's a lovely little theatre and the BBC used to use it because it's underground. And it was like a glorified air raid shelter. It was full of sandbags. And that's where I first performed for the radio. I went there because there was a show on BBC for the overseas service, for the forces, where children could go along and send a message to their dad or their uncle. I was there to send a message to my uncle. And during rehearsal, there was their most enormous air raid, and the place was shaking. And a lot of the kids were up from the country and were terrified, and some of them were crying.

And the producers said, would somebody like to come up and sing a song or say a piece of poetry? you know, just to calm things down, nobody volunteered. So I put my hand up and said, I'll sing a song. So I was taken up to the little stage, and I sang. I sang Mighty Like a Rose, into the microphone, and they heard it up in the control room and said, we'd love to have you sing on our programme. And that's the first time I sang on the air.

And there was an enormous reaction to it, positive one. No, the soldiers wrote in and some of the letters were absolutely lovely. And that was the beginning. And that was all happening during the Second World War. That's right. Really where your career began. And you became billed as the soldier's child as opposed to or the forces child as opposed to the forces sweetheart, for example. That was Vira Linn.

That was Dame Vira Linn. But you did perform for the troops. There was another young girl also in your midst, Julie Andrews. Yes. We were both sort of child prodigies and we used to travel around on troop trains going to the different camps to perform for the different sometimes the breads, sometimes free French,

sometimes Americans, Canadians and we were both rather skinny little girls and we used to sleep in the luggage racks. That was quite the picture as well so evocative of these little girls that are working really very hard but then getting a little bit of sleep whenever they can as well. We loved it. I spoke to Julie about this a few years back

and she remembers it very well. Great fondness. She loved it. How lovely to have somebody as well to reminisce on something that was so extraordinary really but that somebody else was there who understands exactly what it was that you went through. You travelled away from home a lot.

You travelled with your dad who wanted to be an actor so I suppose he was living vicariously in some ways through you but it turned out which I was so surprised as you were after working really hard for 15 years you split ways with your father

you're going to be your own woman that there was no money in the bank yes that was quite a moment my sister and I went to see an accountant and he'd look He looked at the figures and he looked up and he said, you've got £500. I mean, I wasn't bad in those days, but I had been working pretty well non-stop, you know, for many years. And I was expecting a bit more than that.

Did your father ever say where the money went? Because he was your manager in that way. Yeah, so I think he was a bit mystified by the whole. That's what he said. I mean, he was a good man. I don't think he gambled. and he liked nice cars. He always had rather grand cars, but where it went, I really don't know.

But it does go. It does go. And you built yourself up again, though. I mean, this incredible going from the UK to then becoming this massive star in France and, you know, singing in French, just picking it up. And then, of course, breaking into America as well, which so many people wanted to do. You made many, many, many movies. also Finian's Rainbow with Fred Astaire, directed by a very young Francis Ford Coppola.

That feels like it was a highlight of your movie career. It was a highlight. I think I was at my happiest. And everything was going well between Claude and me. We had two lovely little children who were absolutely gorgeous, two little girls, Burr and Kate. And I was working with the best people in the world. And that was pretty good. have to say. So it was

a magical moment. Could you tell that Francis Ford Coppola at that young age was going to be a star? I couldn't tell no because he hadn't done the godfather or any of that, but I knew he was good. What's more, he was lovely. He was very funny, very

musical, Italian, of course. And Francis, Fred and I used to travel around in California quite a lot. And we used to sing all the time, all three of us. Fred used to get me to sing because he loved pop music I said I'll tell you what you sing for me

and he would and Francis would join in it was that kind of three musketeers on the road rather it was lovely I love that idea the pictures that you conjure up for us Mani will remember you

the role of Norman Desmond and Sunset Boulevard in the West End of course and then the Bird Woman in Mary Poppins in London 2019 until 2023 of course, a pandemic in the middle that was upsetting things and whatnot. But Manny might wonder, what is next, Petula?

I am an old lady now. Well, but you know what I mean? It's, I don't think that comes into it, to be quite honest. Well, there's been talk for me doing another concert in London, which I would love to do. Because, you know, the last thing I did in London, as you said, It was the Boyd Woman in Mary Poppins, which was not what I'd call a thrilling moment, although it was a wonderful production. But I wasn't doing anything exciting in it.

And you want excitement. Yes, I do. This is what I'm hearing. You are a dynamic, fascinating woman. You're 92 years of age. What do you think is the secret to your... sense of joie de vivre. I love what I do.

I think I'm privileged all these years to have been doing what I love. You know, how many people can say that? And the energy comes from doing it and the energy that comes back to me from the audience that's two-way traffic. It's a very exciting thing to do,

a very energizing thing to do. And I think, and I can't imagine my life without it, without music and garlic, if you really want to know. Petula Clark and her autobiography, Is That You, Petula, is available now. That's all from me, but before I go, are you up to date with The Woman's Hour Guide to Life episodes?

I wanted to let you know that the final episode of the series is out tomorrow, only on BBC Sounds. It's all about how we can build emotional resilience in children and learn a few things ourselves. Here's a clip from it featuring clinical psychologist Dr. Becky Kennedy. Your role is not to stop a tantrum and your role is not to avoid a tantrum. You actually don't want to avoid tantrums because everything we do to avoid a tantrum, fine, I'll get you that chalk apart. Fine, you can watch one more TV.

All a kid learns is my parent is as scared of my frustration as I am. That makes your kid more likely to have tantrums over time. And so don't avoid, don't end. Your job is actually simple. Keep your kid safe and keep your kid calm. I always use the mantra, I'm safe, this isn't an emergency, I can cope with this. I think whether you have a two-year-old or a 22-year-old, that's a good mantra because it helps you separate their feelings from yours.

You're like, wait, I'm okay. They're not. And then you just wait it out. You wait it out. And when your kid gets used to this, my parent doesn't avoid it. They don't end it. They keep me safe, and they can stay calmer than me. They absorb our regulation.

That's called co-regulation. And that's the thing over the course, I'm going to be honest, it is years that leads to their ability to be more resilient and not have such intense meltdown. To hear the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, just go to BBC Sounds, search for Woman's Hour, and in the feed you'll find the Guide to Life episodes. The final episode drops at 8 a.m. tomorrow. And if there are topics or issues you want us to cover, then do get in touch. That's it for this week's program. And as we come to an end, I want to give a special thank you to one of the people. behind the glass of the studio here today.

Bob Nettles, technical producer whose final recording this is. Bob is leaving the BBC after 46 years with his hands on the faders, looking after us presenters, keeping programmes on air through thick and thin. Bob, thank you for everything. You will be missed.

That's it from us. Do join Lula on Monday from 10.