Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Malala Yousafzai, Grassroots sport, Talking about not having children

Episode Date: March 11, 2023

Malala Yousafzai is a Pakistani education activist and the world’s youngest Nobel Prize laureate. Since she was shot by a member of the Taliban at just 15, Malala has spent nearly a decade fighting for the educational rights of girls and women across the globe. Now she’s turning her attention to Hollywood, as Executive Producer of the short documentary film Stranger At The Gate. She shares why she’s made this move into the world of film.What happens if you and your partner disagree on whether or not to have children? If you have different opinions, do you walk away from an otherwise happy relationship? Relationship counsellor Val Sampson and Woman’s Hour listener Sarah discuss the healthiest ways to navigate the situation.As the selection of finalists for the Woman's Hour Power List 2023 gets well underway, we speak to one woman who’s been put forward for consideration. Yvette Curtis is the founder of Wave Wahines, a surf club for women and girls. She talks about the power of grassroots sport and the importance of diversity in surfing.One month after a powerful earthquake devastated parts of Turkey and Syria, hundreds of thousands of people still need adequate shelter and sanitation. But why are women and girls disproportionately feeling the aftershocks of the disaster? Novelist and political scientist Elif Shafak shares updates on the situation.Willie Mae Thornton, better known as Big Mama Thornton, wrote the hits ‘Ball N’ Chain’ and ‘Hound Dog’ which won Elvis Presley great acclaim. But why is her contribution to rock and roll rarely recognised? The poet, writer and performer Pamela Sneed discusses the life and legacy of Big Mama Thornton.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Hatty Nash

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Good afternoon, I'm Krupa Bhatti and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. This is the programme each Saturday where we bring you a selection of all the best bits of Woman's Hour from the week. Coming up on the programme, hundreds of thousands of people still need adequate shelter and sanitation after the devastating earthquakes in Turkey and Syria. Nailif Shafak explains why it's women and girls who are disproportionately feeling the aftershocks

of the disaster. Am will ask the question, what happens when you and your partner disagree on whether or not to have kids? I am increasingly feeling that I don't want kids. And my husband had always assumed he would. And I think although he's open to the possibility of not having them, the big question is whether he will get to a point where he decides that actually he needs to have kids in his life. Plus, the power of grassroots sport. As the selection of finalists for our Women in Sport Power List gets well underway,

we hear from one woman who started her own women and girls surf club. And we learn more about Big Mama Thornton, the black woman who was one of the architects of rock and roll and wrote songs for Elvis Presley, but whose legacy is rarely recognised today. She was so powerful that basically she was like, she closed down the show every single night and they didn't even give her a microphone because she was like, she closed down the show every single night. And they didn't even give her a microphone because she was so powerful.

That's Pamela Sneed, who'll tell us more about Big Mama Thornton a little later on. But first, world-famous activist and youngest ever Nobel Peace Laureate Malala Yousafzai joined us on Women's Hour earlier this week. Malala was just 12 years old when she began speaking out against the Taliban's ban on girls' education in her home country of Pakistan. At 15, on the way home from school, a member of the Taliban boarded her bus, asked for her by name and shot her in the head. But that was only the start of her extraordinary journey.

In the decades since, Malala has continued to fight for the educational rights of girls and women across the globe, receiving the Nobel Peace Prize for her activism at just 17. And now at 25, she's taking on Hollywood, most recently as executive producer of Stranger at the Gate, which has been nominated for the Oscar for Best Documentary Short Film. The film tells the story of Richard Mack McKinney, a US Marine veteran who planned an Islamophobic terror attack on a mosque in Indiana, only to be won over whilst visiting the mosque by its congregants. Nuala started by asking Malala why she chose to turn her attention to Hollywood. Hollywood is a place for storytelling and I believe that everybody deserves a chance to make it there and to tell stories from their point of view. When we look at television, when we look at movies, we often realize that it's missing the perspective of so many people and when you look at the representation of Muslims, especially,

they make up 25% of the population, but only 1% of them make it to the movies, to the screen. So we want to be given the opportunity where we can show things from our point of view. I'm really excited to be working now and to be part of some incredible documentaries and movies as well. Well, let's get into one of these documentaries because you're joining us because of Stranger at the Gate. This is a film that you're supporting, really been an ambassador for as executive producer. This is an extraordinary story. I watched it and was gobsmacked at times.

What did you think when you first watched it? I had never heard the story before, so I did not know what to anticipate. And I was just completely shocked by the end of it. What a powerful story it was, how the life of a person can change by human sympathy and compassion and kindness. I personally believe in those values and it is quite difficult to preach about them without being able to show it to people how life-changing these could be. But in this short film, we can see that happening. We can see how this kind Muslim family

opened their hearts and their doors to this stranger who is secretly planning to kill all of them. And it's their kindness and compassion that really changes the life of this person, Mac, who later on, you know, changes his mind and he wants to spread the message of love to others. There are so many strands through it and so many strong characters as well. I was struck, you know, you said about the film that the stories can teach us about ourselves, that you experienced that when you were watching the film. But I would have thought that this ex-Marine, possibly suffering with PTSD, but definitely that had murder on his mind, would seem so different to your story.

I think there is a lot in common between these stories. It is the dehumanization of another individual or another group of people. The person who wanted to attack me was told that I was not, you know, I was this alien person who did not belong to the community, who did not belong to the faith. And if you make somebody an outsider, then it's easier to convince somebody to harm them. And this is something that needs to be challenged. And we can challenge that through storytelling because stories connect you with people from different corners of the world. It shows you that they're humans too. They have the same emotions, feelings. They have families.

They have meals together. They have sad moments. They have meals together. They have sad moments. They have happy moments. And it is through the power of stories that, you know, I personally was able to learn more about the world. I come from the north of Pakistan and I had never traveled before. And it was, you know, with the help of the documentaries or the TV shows or the movies that I would watch that I was learning about the world out there, that there are people who go through the similar things as us. You know, they are having, you know, they're worried about families. They're trying to find a job. They are trying to make friends.

And they have those ups and downs as well. And that's the power of these stories that they connect to. I understand. I will ask you, I know Titanic is 25 years old at this stage. I know it was a favourite of yours when you were in the Swat Valley and now you're on your way to the Oscars with this film, which we'll come back to in a moment. But I want to think a little bit more about this particular story and also trying to understand those views that are different, perhaps from our own. There is one character, she's really striking. Her name is Bibi Ba Rami, some calling her the Mother Teresa of this mosque in Indiana that Mac was targeting. She's an Afghan refugee. And when she finds out what his intentions were to bomb her place of

worship, she invites him to dinner. You've met her. What is she like in the flesh? She has changed the lives of so many people. It's not just Mac, that one person, but she told us stories about other people that she has welcomed, people who just thought that, she did not belong in the country or they disagreed with her faith. She said, let's have a meal and let's talk. And that is really breaking bread with people. But it is astonishing her capacity for forgiveness, I thought, looking at her and also for Max's potential for redemption.

I did read previously that you said you would forgive the man who shot you if you met him. Again, extraordinary. What gives you that you would forgive the man who shot you if you met him. Again, extraordinary. What gives you that ability to forgive? I believe that, you know, like what would happen if I don't forgive that person? Like literally nothing would happen. So my personal view is that forgiveness and compassion is really important to break the cycle of hatred. I believe that the best way to take revenge against extremism and violence is to spread love and to help people who need help. And for me to fight against what happened to me was to work for other girls to have access to education.

That was the best way in which I could fight back what happened to me. They wanted to stop one girl from having access to education. Today, I want to advocate for 130 million girls to have access to education. And, you know, when I achieve that goal, I would feel like I have lived a fulfilled life. But we live in a time where there's a lot of divisiveness, you know, whether it's online or in person with politics and culture wars, as they say. Do you think people need to be more open to not cutting people off? I can say about my personal approach to this, because when I come across an opinion that I may not agree with, or even very subtle, you know, acts of aggressions or inappropriate comments, I always give the person benefit of the doubt. And I try to explain

things to people that, you know, if you think about it from this point of view, or, you know, where I come from, I see it this way. I, you know, I, I always think that, you know, maybe the person has not thought about it, or maybe they need somebody to tell them, maybe nobody has told them yet. And there's something for me to learn as well. Why somebody is thinking a certain way. Is it because they're limited in their exposure to different opinions? And it's really making an effort and connecting with them. I think once somebody connects with you, it changes their perspective as well because like for example like I'm a Muslim I wear a headscarf I am from Pakistan I'm a Pashtun and then if whoever has you know certain point like you know stereotypes in their mind about these sort of people when they interact with me they should you know in their mind they should also be picturing me as well as a person as a person, as a representation of them, right? And we know that if you look at a religion and ethnicity, or specific community, you know, people are complex and yet simple as well at the same time. We have, you know, we have people coming from all different backgrounds and paths and

stories. So it's really important that we do not just see it as black and white and like label people and, you know, believe in those stereotypes about people. I love what you're saying, Malala, and your composure is legendary. But don't you ever get frustrated, like feel like you're banging your head against a wall sometimes trying to, I don't know, reconcile or find those connections, perhaps at times? When you become an activist, you get used to it. OK. And you are an activist and also doing that, of course, through film at the moment. I'd be curious also for your thoughts, because with this documentary, we know that Mac had extremist views.

But social media is such an interesting one. I was thinking of you and for young people, there can be downsides that we hear about, particularly in relation to mental health or maybe radicalization. But it is also where young people organize, you know, in their tens of thousands or millions, I should probably say. Do you think about it as a force for good or bad? I think this is a topic that can take us some time to go in depth, but I would say that social media is a tool. And of course, those who are running it need to be more responsible in what

they allow on social media and how they set algorithms. And just be mindful that every decision they make would have consequences. And they need to act with more responsibility, but also people who are using social media can be more responsible and ensure that they are not spreading any misinformation, disinformation, false news, just double checking everything. We are, we live in such a sense of urgency every day about everything that we are, you know, we want people to just say everything that we want them to say. And it's really important that we do not say things in a rush. We, we, when we get exposed to a piece of information, we have to question its credibility, where does it come from? What's, you know, when and who wrote it, but also the plausibility is,

is it saying something plausible? Is it just, you know, like two sentences? Is there more detail and to it? So it can be like a really tiring and exhausting platform as well. But on the other hand, I know that, you know, of course, there are like fun, there's a fun side to it as well. Everybody loves memes. Everybody enjoys those funny tweets. So I do use social media, you know, Instagram, Twitter, all of that. So I would say that just be a bit more patient when using it

I did read that you put your phone away however when you do deep work when you're preparing for something how do you do that where does that self-discipline come from um I I would not say that I'm a very like self-disciplined person but when when I have to do work, then the work is important. I have no choice. That's what I would say. But I just love like scrolling through reels and TikTok videos. So that could be fun.

And it really helps me like in escaping from a lot of my work. But other than that, when it's time to do my work, then phone is put aside. Where is it put? In the drawer? Do you leave it at the door? Turn it off? It could be just on the table, but I won't look at it. You have such discipline. That's wonderful. You know, I was loving your Twitter, what should we call it? Spat is too strong. Banter with your

husband. You're not picking up his socks this is what I've read you were tweeting that any dirty socks that were left on the floor they go straight in the bin and then I was wondering is that the secret to having a career in film along with of course so much of your activism do not get caught up in your husband's chores the sock life story is funny because I think it was sort of my misunderstanding he said the socks were dirty I was like sure you know dirty where do dirty things go in the bin so but no I think I am just lucky to have such a an amazing husband partner friend in my life. And he's somebody who is like, I'm always impressed by him. He amazes me with his kindness and support that he gives me. And he's like, he's like a really proud.

I would say like, if somebody is trying to like define what a feminist husband would look like, I could see that in him. Yeah, he does a a lot for me I'm always so happy for that so that's some of the downtime looking on the phone whether it's reels or Instagram or whatever what do you watch now that you're in the world of film I mean is there I mentioned Titanic I know that was a big favorite uh 25 years ago and I love the thought of little Malala you know watching it on a computer in the Swat Valley. But now. So now, like I watched everything everywhere all at once recently.

I loved it. I enjoyed it so much. And I was so lucky that I had the opportunity to meet the stars in person and also moderate a Q&A at one of their screenings. All the nominees, Oscar nominees, were on the stage. The producer, the directors, and Michelle Yeoh, and Kihei Kwan, and Stephanie, and Jamie Lee. So it was just amazing to see all of them. I'm sure they were delighted they had you as the moderator as well. When you go to the Oscars, so there's quite a few you bumped into moderating. Is there

anybody else you're hoping to bump into on that day? Well, I already bumped into Tom Cruise and Austin Butler. And I heard his deep voice, his Elvis voice. He yeah yeah that is I can I can confirm he has that Elvis voice in real life so no acting there and I am excited to see everybody I mean Rihanna is going to be performing at the Oscars there's going to be so many other incredible people if just to be in that room surrounded by these creative talented people would be a huge opportunity did you watch the latest Top Gun and Elvis yes yes I have seen all the movies I am just up to date on everything this is part of the the work you know when you get into Hollywood may I ask you also something else about the Oscars? Have you decided what you're going to wear? Well, that is a tough question because we have been

working on it for weeks now. We have so many sketches and I think I know which one I like the most. So I will show it to you all on the day. So, you know, we talked about Schoolgirl in the Swat Valley in Pakistan, two executive producer in Hollywood with the Nobel Peace Prize just in between that picked up. What's going to be next? I mean, I would think maybe running for office, political office. Is that something you think about? Oh, I still have time for that. Oh, you do. Definitely. I wonder, would it be, if you're thinking about it in Pakistan or in the UK um definitely not the UK I think the UK uh is you know I I would say that you know I'm not actually thinking about like political office but if I do then uh I would definitely want to play a

role in Pakistan but um right now my focus is um movies and just doing the work for girls education I believe that we need to empower other young women and girls to have the opportunity to to become activists and to become storytellers you know oftentimes all of these people have the talent, they have the skills, but all they need is a platform. All they need is an opportunity to do that. So I want to play that role to help everybody else. You know, just as I was fortunate enough to have my story and to share it with the world. There are so many other girls whose stories we need to hear. And you can listen to the full interview with Malala on the BBC Sounds app. Just search for

Woman's Hour and go to the episode from the 6th of March. The question of whether or not to have children is a massive one for many people. But what happens when you and your partner don't agree on the answer to that question? One listener, who we're calling Sarah, found herself in that exact situation. She joined Nuala and Relationships Counsellor Val Sampson on the programme earlier this week. Nuala started by asking Val, when is it the right time in a relationship to bring up the question of children? I don't think it's just one conversation. I think it's a lot of conversations, actually, as your relationship evolves, your views on having children evolve. And I don't think a sort of quick, shall we have them? Yes. And that's it, is enough, really. And I think as

we'll probably hear from my fellow guest, it can be problematic. But it's really important to have the conversation and to continue to have the conversation and to do it pretty early on. Early on what? Are we talking about, I don't know, fifth date? Are we talking about six months in? Are we talking about when there's serious commitment being talked about?

I think probably, certainly when there's serious commitment being talked about? I think probably, certainly when there's serious commitment being talked about, because you're thinking about what your life is going to look like if you meet somebody and you think, I'd like to be with them for a long time. So certainly by then, I think probably first date's a bit early, but you can certainly bring the conversation up. And as I say, it's a series of conversations as the relationship develops. Well, let's meet Sarah, not her real name, as I'll mention.

Sarah, you met your husband just after university, I understand, and married five years ago in your 20s. Were you having that conversation about having kids throughout that process? And welcome. Hi, thanks. Yeah, we absolutely were. We were talking about kids early, but we were young, and it seemed like a long way off. And while I think I'd always grown up with the idea that I would have kids, and I had these pictures of, I guess, you know, rosy-cheeked kids running in and out of a kitchen and me with a flowery apron. That was probably the picture I had in my head when we were thinking about having kids early. And as time's gone on, I'm now in my early 30s, the reality that I'm seeing of parenting seems

a lot less appealing. So I think although we had those conversations early, we perhaps didn't know exactly what it might be like. And we're finding that out more and more as time goes on. And that's changing the conversations that we continue to have. Are you in different places? Yeah. And I think maybe this is a little unusual in that I am increasingly feeling that I don't want kids. And my husband had always assumed he would. And I think although he's open to the possibility of not having them, the big question is whether he will get to a point where he decides that actually he needs to have kids in his life. We have an extremely happy marriage.

We are deeply in love. We want to be together forever. I think the only thing that would ensure that didn't happen would be if he decides he can't live without kids and I decide I can't have them. Oh, gosh. ensure that didn't happen would be if he decides he can't live without kids and I decide I can't have them. Oh gosh and there's Val there can't be any compromise in this decision either right? Well I think there are a lot of different ways to be a parent and there's a lot of different ways to have a good relationship with the generation coming up behind you without being a parent. So when you're in a situation like this, where there's a conflict, and by conflict, I don't mean people, you know, screaming at each other or throwing china, just one person thinks one thing and someone thinks something else. The way that

I normally work with clients is we look at the feelings first. So we acknowledge and explore the feelings or the beliefs that you have, which kind of prevent you getting to a problem solving situation. So it may be, for example, sometimes I work with people, and they've had a very unhappy childhood. And one of the things they might say is, the last thing I'd want to do is to inflict that on someone else, I need to have my own family. So, you know, A, we have to acknowledge that. And then we think about, well, if you were to have a family, what would you do differently? You know, sometimes someone might, a client might say, I don't want to turn out like my mother. She was so resentful.

And then we'd say, well, what was going on in your mother's life that meant that she felt unsupported, that might have felt, you know, made her resentful? So it's not a process of trying to persuade a client one way or the other. But what we're looking to do is get as much information as we can, so that when you do make a decision, you feel that you've made the best choice you can with all the information available, and then you feel ready to embrace the path that you choose. Sarah, is it a fraught decision making? Like, I mean, is it, does it put you in turmoil? Or is it more straightforward? This is clear, we'll work it out as a couple? No, I think it is fraught. Although we I think we argue well, I do think it's fraught because it's such a big decision. It's such a decision that is such an irreversible decision. And although

I think you can apply cool logic to many decisions in life and you can put a pros and cons list, it seems to me that large parts of the advantages of having kids that the parents talk about are intangible. So it's really hard to picture life with kids and life without kids and to weigh those things up in any logical way. So I think you can't help but have your emotions be involved in that. And that can make it fraught. However, however much we're trying to make the decision together um it's still tricky yes and of course this is planning to be able to have kids and have them or not have them because there will be val you know couples of course uh that might want to have kids can't have them and that's a whole different dynamic within the relationship trying to work through that life without kids. Well, I think, you know, what we're

talking about is loss. And actually, whether it's a choice, you know, you're able to have children, but you choose to have a life without them, or you're not able to have children, and you would like them in your life, it's actually coming to terms with that loss and how that impacts on you and how that impacts on the relationship. And then working out what you might be able to do going forward to compensate in some way for that loss. But you do have to acknowledge it first. And perhaps a loss for some and maybe not for others. So many people getting in touch with this. I went out with a woman, this is a guy getting in touch, Anthony. Hi, Anthony. I went out with a woman

with an agenda. First thing she said on the first date was, I'm wanting kids more or less immediately and if you're not there, there is no point in further dates. There was only one date. Pauline got in touch, says, I didn't think about having a baby until married for nearly 10 years and then only after my husband told

me he was feeling broody. What a gift our son is. I'm glad that worked out for you, Pauline. Let me see another. I discussed wanting children early on in any relationship. I didn't want them. It finished some,

but I can't understand why people don't broach it early on. It's fundamental and not open to compromise. I'm now 70, married and happily child-free. I'm wondering, Sarah, what do you think when you hear some of those stories? Yeah, it's really interesting. And I think I'm very aware that my viewpoint and my situation is a little unusual. Firstly, just assuming that we do have the choice.

We don't know, but if we're assuming that we're able to have kids, I appreciate we're in a very privileged position. But also I'm aware I have many female friends whose relationships have ended because they wanted kids and their partners didn't. So I know it's a little unusual, our situation, and lots of people will be probably feeling a bit, maybe even jealous, I don't know. So I do appreciate that. I think those conversations, having them early, that makes perfect sense to me. And as I say, my husband and I did. But I do think it's very difficult to imagine your life, especially, I mean, we met when we were 21, my husband and I. It's really hard to imagine what it will actually be like in, let's say,

10 years time and how you'll both feel. So with the best will in the world, it's a tricky thing to talk about early in a relationship. Here's one that came in. I'm a 22-year-old recent graduate, and I see among my cohort, the men are much more broody and open to having children than the women. I see them having a more idealised, relaxed view of having children. I think women have a more realistic view of the impact that having children will have on

their lives. Let me turn back to you Val, and of course that's talking about male and female but there'll be lots of same-sex couples that are having this exact same conversation just depending on what that view of the reality of raising children is actually like. What advice would you give to couples Val that have a completely different opinion on what the reality will be like? Well I think first of all it's not a disaster because it means you're

both bringing something different to the conversation. So you're going to cover a lot of bases. As you can probably imagine, I would say if it's something you feel you can't resolve happily yourself, talk to a counsellor, get some support with the conversation. And one of the things, you know, that I talk to my clients about is what they think the purpose of having children is. And for some, it is that rosy picture. For other people, it's someone to look after you when you're old. Now, those two things aren't, somebody said that to me just last week. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

But I think if you're with a third party in a counselling area, you get a chance to really kind of properly talk it through. And as I was saying earlier, to acknowledge and explore the feelings or sometimes the beliefs that you carry that you're not even that aware of. So examples, sometimes I might work with someone from a big family where all of the siblings have had children. And there's a sense of, well, if I don't have children, am I somehow letting my siblings down? Am I not really a member of this family or am I going to disappoint my parents if I don't have grandparents, grandchildren rather? So so there is there's a lot to take on board and it's worth putting time and investing time and energy in really thinking it through. That the downside of not thinking it through is when I see couples down the line who haven't had these conversations

and whose relationships have really suffered as a result. Yes, and I think it's probably a taboo about talking about whether you've regretted having children. I know people open up to me about an awful lot of things, but that one, not as much. And with same-sex couples, Eval, for example, is the same issues that arise, is it? It can be. Sometimes when I work with same-sex couples, it's sometimes around timing,

but then actually, I mean, that's also the same with other couples as well. I think what we underestimate actually is the impact of our own family experience on how we feel about children and how we feel about being a parent. Sometimes we think, you know, I'd love to reproduce a family like mine. Sometimes we think, gosh, the last thing I'd want to do is to make that mistake. So actually being able to explore our own experience of being a child, because having a having a child does remind you very much of your own childhood if that's positive it's great if it wasn't so positive that's not such a good experience and you can get help to to manage that but understanding what your the kind of the beliefs and experiences you're bringing with you into the discussion really helps get you get you some clarity. Relationship counsellor Val Sampson and a listener we're

calling Sarah talking to Nuala there. The topic clearly resonated with a lot of you and we've received a great deal of messages over the week. Laura writes, me and my partner discussed having children early in our relationship. Initially, we were both hesitant about having them, both not defining ourselves as baby people. I think what was key was that we were not fixed on our opinions about having them. We just both said we might want to have them in the future. Luckily, we both then felt drawn to trying for children further on in our relationship and now we are blessed with two children. I think honesty and openness about your position on kids early on is vital in a relationship and being honest

about what having children really means. A child changes everything in your life and relationship, good, bad, ugly and existentially epic and accepting and predicting that darkness is vital, says Laura. And we've had this message, my first husband refused to try for kids with me. My brother is severely autistic and my husband was too afraid our kids would inherit this too. Ian writes, my wife asked me about having children early on when it was soon to be the last chance. The sobering thought was that I would have to agree to be the primary carer. I decided no. And we are happily childless 40 years later. And remember, we always love to hear your views. You can get in touch with us about what you hear on any of our programmes by sending an email to womanshour.yourviews at bbc.co.uk or finding

us on Twitter and Instagram on the handle at BBC Women's Hour. Still to come on the programme, the woman who wrote Elvis Presley's Ball and Chain and helped bring Hound Dog to number one. We talk about Big Mama Thornton with the poet and writer Pamela Sneed. And why women and girls in Turkey and Syria are being disproportionately affected by last month's devastating earthquakes. Novelist and political scientist Elif Shafak shares the story she's receiving from those struck by the disaster.

And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just go to BBC Sounds and search for Woman's Hour. But now we are well underway in picking the finalists for the Woman's Hour Powerlist 2023, where we're looking for the UK's 30 most outstanding women in sport. One area that's particularly interesting to us is women's sport at the grassroots level. So while the final selection is still being made, we thought we'd talk to one woman who's been put forward for consideration.

Yvette Curtis is the founder of Wave Wahinez. She spoke to me from North Devon yesterday to talk about the impact of her women and girls surf club. I started by asking her how the club came about. Well, Wave Wahinez started seven years ago now my eldest daughter at the time was 12 and she wanted to surf a little bit more and as a personal trainer I put a really high emphasis on having some kind of physical outlet and being sporty but surfing was something that I'd only ever done on my 30th birthday so I had no idea how to teach her so we had a look around at local sort of surf clubs and coaching and it's quite an expensive sport to do sort of as a one-on-one type situation so nothing really sat with her that was quite comfortable

so I spoke to a couple of female coaches and one of the local surf schools and they agreed to let us trial it for a year to see how it went. And yeah, we've been here ever since. So we just basically built it and they came. What was the problem, Yvette, with the existing clubs you found? I think most of them, you had to have your own equipment. So wetsuits were expensive. Surfboards are expensive. And, you know, and if the child doesn't like it, then you've spent, you know, potentially or you've had to spend hundreds of pounds for something that they're not going to do

again. So there wasn't the option to sort of borrow stuff and use it. And they were all sort of people that had grown up surfing. Most of them were boys. So it wasn't sort of the atmosphere that my 12-year-old daughter, who'd only been to a couple of lessons, was really comfortable with. And then creating this club for women and girls only, what's been the benefit of that, having a club just for women and girls?

It has given them that space and that access point to, A, keep it affordable as affordable as possible we do keep it sort of 10 pound for our children and 15 for our women and we have a bursary scheme in place for those that are going through financial hardship to ensure that they can still participate so it just creates a really lovely entry point you know especially in particular for our women's group we we designed that so that we would provide the women with the skills the confidence and the connections to go out and surf for themselves and you know many of our first cohort now surf regularly they don't they don't come to the club anymore which is I guess the whole point

is to give them that stepping stone and ability and that confidence to go and do it for themselves and socially. With our girls, it's slightly different. A lot of them come from different schools. So it's a really sociable thing for them to meet friends from other areas that they might not have normally met. So I think for those girls, they tend to just come every week all the time. And it's just, you know, it's just like an after school club, really. Yeah. Although you're in the sea on a surfboard doing something quite extreme, which sounds brilliant. Yvette, you've described the ocean as a force that can be used in healing trauma. Can you help us better understand that?

Yeah, of course. I came across an organisation called Groundswell Community Projects and they run surf therapy training. So they coach you in how to how to coach others using the ocean and using the beach sort of setting and that sort of water based setting to use it as a form of therapy. So how you work in that open space rather than being within an office environment. And we then took that to North Devon Against Domestic Abuse. And I asked them, you know, would you be interested in, you know, using this particular program with your women? And we'll fully fund it. We'll fund all the transport and do all of those things because we had a sponsor on board, which was fantastic. And we took a group of six women and we surfed with them every week. We did our therapy sessions beforehand. We then sat down in circle afterwards and sort of analysed how the session had gone. And I think at the end of that sort of first cohort of women, we had women saying that we'd saved their lives. We'd allowed them to have a voice after them

having their voice restricted through obviously their relationships and and sort of being those survivors of domestic abuse um so it i mean that was just an incredible thing to be part of and we've run that several times throughout 2022 and 2021 but you're doing some tremendous work there i also know that you're working on matters of diversity within surfing as well. Yeah, that's right. I think this is just something that I've kind of fallen into. It was never I never set out to be like a voice for anything or anyone in particular. I think it just happened during lockdown. Obviously, the murder of George Floyd sort of triggered quite a lot of feelings for many people of colour within

many industries and surfing was one of those and so naturally a lot of people then gravitated towards me to ask me for my opinion because basically I'm the only person of colour who runs a surf club in the UK and was actually willing to talk about it. We then put a piece together about why it was such an underrepresented sport and it was such a white dominated sport and that that undercame quite a lot of fire sadly from the public um and made me really re-evaluate should I be talking about this um do I have a right to talk about it because you know the massive disclaimer here is that I am still a terrible surfer after seven years of running this

club but I kind of think that's what sets us apart a little bit is you know we're not saying you have to be amazing to do it you're keeping it real everyone has us yeah everyone's got a space and and it is that it's so overused but it's so right that if you can't see it you can't be it Yvette Curtis founder of Wave Wahinez and one of the women who's been put forward for consideration for the Women's Hour Power List 2023. And you'll be hearing more about our power list in the coming weeks as the final selection is made. We are one month on since the powerful earthquakes that devastated parts of Turkey and Syria. Officials put the number of deaths in Turkey alone at almost 50,000,

and in Syria, more than 6,000 people are known to have lost their lives. Hundreds of thousands of people still need adequate shelter and sanitation, but it's women and girls in Turkey who are disproportionately feeling the aftershocks, and the stories of abuse are beginning to emerge. Elif Shafak is a novelist and political scientist who has written about the current situation for women and girls impacted by the earthquake. I spoke to her earlier this week, and I started by asking her to share what stories she was hearing from those on the ground. I think always in times of crisis, disaster, and war, and displacement in general. It's women and children, minorities, also the poor who

suffer disproportionately. We need to bear in mind that we're talking about very traditional societies in which women have to take care of the extended families, you know. So they're constantly working right now. And I worry that their needs, their basic needs, including sanitary products, hygiene. For instance, there are more than 365,000 pregnant women in earthquake zones today, and around 40,000 of them are expected to deliver to give birth in the next weeks. So they have some very basic and urgent needs. And I worry that all of that goes unnoticed, you know, because the tragedy is so big. Sometimes people think that talking about menstruation, sanitary products, et cetera,

they think these are trivial concerns, but they're not. They matter. And I think we need to focus on the needs of women and children urgently. And specifically, I know you've been liaising with various organisations there on the ground to better understand the needs and challenges facing women and girls. Can you give us some specific examples of what they've been sharing with you? There's so many untold stories. Unfortunately, already in Turkey, domestic violence is quite high. You know, we have a massive problem. And the fact that the government has withdrawn from the Istanbul Convention, which is a very important international treaty to protect women and

minorities from violence. The fact that the government has withdrawn from this convention, instead of implementing, it has made everything worse. So already we have gender violence. Already we have femicides. Now, on top of that, again, every study shows and every women's organization on the ground tells us that in times of crisis, violence against women and minorities increases. So they don't have anywhere to go. They don't have shelters. They don't have anywhere to go. They don't have shelters. They don't have anyone to help them. And I think it's a major issue. Another thing that concerns

me is, of course, there are no schools right now in earthquake zones. And again, studies tell us when children cannot go to school, it's usually girl children, girl students who are more likely to be pulled out of school if they cannot go to school for a long time. So there's a very, you know, disproportionate situation here that we need to take into consideration. I know that your article specifically talks about one case where a woman has had to go back to her abuser because she'd rather return to him than live with her children in a tent. Well, she thought, she assumed that her ex, you know, going back to her ex-husband's house,

the father of her children would be safer than staying in a tent outside. Also, let's remember that unfortunately these earthquakes, they're plural, happened in the middle of winter, frigid conditions. So it's really, really very difficult for so many people out there and when she returned her ex-husband poured hot water scalding water on her burning her body and shouting that he should be grateful that he has not killed her so she's in intensive care without anyone without anyone helping her but there are many stories that we never get to hear. That's why I find it very important that we amplify all these untold stories of women, but also LGBTQ plus minorities,

because these are difficult subjects in both Turkey and Syria, you know, where there's homophobia, transphobia. It is very difficult for minority members to survive in these environments. And you touched on it in your first answer there, the kind of culture of Turkey, and you also write about it again in your article saying, growing up in Turkey, I've been told many times to be quiet and ashamed of the female body. Can you explain more broadly the cultural context in which this is all unfolding? You know, still to this day, when you look at the word kirli, which means dirty in Turkish language, the first meaning of dirty is what you would expect, you know, unclean, etc.

Second or third meaning of kirli is a woman who is menstruating. So we teach young girls that you are dirty, you're unclean, that you should be ashamed of yourself during the moment of the time of menstruation. But this is only one example. So I have so many experiences, you know, being scolded by old people in the market. If you ask out loudly for sanitary products, I've seen like many women in Turkey, them being wrapped in old newspapers as if something to be ashamed of, something that needs to be hidden and so on. So within this culture, how are earthquake survivors, women and girls, going to access sanitary products? I find period poverty a very, very important issue. How can relief efforts work better to support the

needs of women and children there at the moment? I really appreciate this question because there's this general understanding that because so much is happening in so many parts of the world, you know, people think, well, we cannot focus on any part of the world for too long. But I think we need to change this narrative. What we need to realise is whether it's in, People think, well, we cannot focus on any part of the world for too long. But I think we need to change this narrative. What we need to realize is whether it's in earthquake zones in Turkey or Syria or in Afghanistan or in Iran, as we're speaking, young girls are being poisoned with chemical gas attacks at school or in war-torn Ukraine when women have have to deal with, you know, rape and sexual harassment on top of the trauma of displacement and disaster, right? So wherever we look, we see that women are

carrying the burden disproportionately. So relief efforts need to be gender-based. And the second reason why this is important is because when you invest in women, you know, when you support them psychologically, financially, every study shows us that women invest, put it back into their communities. Women put it back into their families. So the best way to rebuild societies is via gender-based efforts. That was the novelist and political scientist Elif Shafak. Baz Luhrmann's Elvis biopic has been nominated for eight Oscars. The film celebrates the life of Elvis, the king of rock and roll. But what about the queen of rock and roll? She wrote the song Ball and Chain, which won Elvis Presley far greater acclaim. And she only makes a brief appearance in the film despite being one of the architects of rock and

roll. The woman I'm talking about is Willie Mae Thornton, better known as Big Mama Thornton. I was joined earlier this week by the poet, writer, and performer Pamela Sneed, who has spent a lot of her own life exploring the life of Big Mama Thornton. I started by asking her what we know about Big Mama Thornton's life. Well, basically, she was born in Arrington, Alabama in 1926.

Her father was a Baptist preacher, and her mother was sort of the first lady of the church. And so she grew up, she had about, you know, I mean, it varies, but it said that she had about five or six brothers and sisters. Her brother, Harp Thornton, was a really famous musician. And basically, she learned to play harmonica from the one that he threw away in the trash because girls weren't really allowed to play, you know, harmonica and stuff like that. And so her parents, well, I know her mother died young and then she was sort of on her own and she worked in a bar and she, you know, started singing. But then also there's another story

that a blues singer, Diamond Tooth Mary, heard her singing on the back of a garbage truck dressed in boys' clothes and told her to audition for the Harlem Review, which was coming through town. And so she did audition, and she won. And that was sort of like her ticket out of town. And she shared stages, you know, with people like Little Richard and, you know, yeah.

So quite the journey there. She's come back into recognition through the the film Elvis tell us how she how she features well you know I couldn't watch the whole film because I was very distressed by it well tell us first of all how she features and then explain why it worried you so much so basically I mean from what I saw uh they had you know Big Mama Thornton. And the first issue that I had was with representation because Big Mama Thornton was six feet tall and she was 300 pounds, you know, at the height of her career. And the person that they cast was short.

So I thought that that was kind of like disrespectful to, you know, who she was. And from what I saw, she really, she was singing Hound Dog. And then in the next scene, Elvis was singing it. And so there was no kind of like discourse, she didn't have any language. And I felt that that portrayal generally of black people in the film that they really were just there to kind of like enable Elvis and didn't have any sort of interiority. So I liked Elvis actually better before I saw the film. And I was so upset. I, you know, I kind of turned it off.

So you wanted her to have a more prominent role? Yes, a prominent role. And I wanted the respect of her largeness. Yes. You know, in casting, to be careful. I mean, they wouldn't cast somebody really short to play Elvis. So why would they do that for this, you know, black woman pioneer? Well, that's the thinking. I mean, we don't have a formal response to that as to as to why the character was cast as she was but in your opinion why is it so important to have that true representation? Well I think um you know she

got her name um at the Apollo Theatre and uh and she I basically I guess she was on the sort of like Chitlin circuit. And she went and she was an opening act. And then she was so powerful that basically she was like she she closed down the show every single night. And they didn't even give her a microphone because she was so powerful. And they called her Big Mama Thornton. And so and that's where she got her name. And it really features kind of prominently in my show, because in that place that you name yourself, you know, that's when you come into being. So I feel that to sort of like disrespect how much her name meant to her and her size.

So it wasn't just about her physical size but it was also about the size of her her voice of her demeanor of her passion we have had a message in from someone who managed to see big mama thornton she says count myself so lucky to have seen big mama thornton live at the hollywood Bowl in the 70s. It was amazing. And she was a force of nature. Pamela, I know that she has featured a great deal in your work, in your life. There's been a huge influence. Can you just explain that to us a bit more, the power of her identity, her character and the influence that's had on you?

Well, when I was a young lesbian, you know, I basically, you know, moved away from Boston, the suburbs, and I came to New York City. And I didn't know that I was actually I wanted to be a writer, but I also was coming out. And so I sort of like I was coming out as a lesbian and I needed to sort of be away from my family to do that, to be in a new place. And so in doing that, I think I was looking for role models, you know, and, you know, black lesbian identity wasn't really prominent. There weren't a ton of people that were out. So you really had to search. You know, I remember, you know, going into bookstores and there were two books and like, you know, Cheryl Clark's Living as a Lesbian. And it was, you know, in brown paper. It was like wrapped in brown paper or something.

So, you know, our identity was pretty hidden. And I think it was through sort of like starting to meet other Black lesbians and poets. You know, a lot of people talked about the music scene and talked about the blues singers because early on, you know, from Bessie Smith and Moms Mabley, who influenced Big Mama Thornton, you know, tremendously. I mean, they all were queer, you know, you know, bisexual, and they basically spoke openly of their lovers. And and so in that, you know, big mama Thornton, the way that

she presented herself, um, uh, in men's clothes, this huge demeanor, uh, you know, you had to sort of interpret her queerness, you know, um, there was a lot of innuendo. Um, and so she became a role model for me trying to find my identity to see this woman who was just huge and unapologetic. Yeah, it was it was completely. Yeah. And being this force, why do you think in spite of that, she has been erased, many say, from musical history? Well, I mean, I think it's pretty clear that, you know, musical history centers around white men. And that's the history that gets told, really. And so we don't talk about the origins of American music and also a lot of like British music, you know, so like the Beatles were very much influenced by, you know,

black rock people. But I mean, so these women, you know, like Bessie Smith, you know, Billie Holiday, Mums Mabley, Big Mama Thornton, you know, queer, black, poor, like, you know, basically, people don't want to recognize that. And so, you know, they've been disappeared. That was the poet and writer Pamela Sneed speaking about Big Mama Thornton's legacy. That's all from me this afternoon. Don't forget to tune in to Woman's Hour on Monday at 10am, when Nuala will be discussing the life and work of television presenter and writer Paulie Yates, as she becomes the subject of a documentary for Channel 4. Have a lovely rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

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