Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Marian Keyes, Donna McLean, Mansion Hunters

Episode Date: February 12, 2022

Marian Keyes writes funny, clever novels about the tough stuff in life. Her new novel Again, Rachel revisits Rachel Walsh whose story of recovery from addiction was told in the 1997 novel Rachel's Holiday. Marian explains how her own experience of addiction and recovery shapes the stories she tells.In the glamorous world of luxury property selling high-end homes can be a cut-throat business. Sophie Leigh and Chloe Cable from the reality show Mega Mansion Hunters discuss their uphill struggle to become successful women in the industry.Donna McLean first heard about undercover cops having relationships with female activists in 2010 when Mark Kennedy, an undercover police officer who had spent years pretending to be an environmental campaigner, was unmasked. She didn’t realise until years later she was also a victim of the Spy Cops scandal. She has written a memoir Small Town Girl: Love, Lies and The Undercover Police.A group of mothers in Massachusetts exorcise their pandemic frustrations by screaming in a group in the middle of a football field. Could the craze come to the UK? We speak to Professor Pragya Agarwal and Dr Rebecca Semmens-Wheeler Last week’s Levelling Up white paper has promised a devolution deal to every part of England that wishes to have one by 2030. But what impact has devolution had on female political representation? We discuss with Jemima Olchawski, Chief Executive of the Fawcett Society; Tracy Brabin, Mayor of West Yorkshire; and Jackie Weaver, Chief Officer of the Cheshire Association of Local Councils.Brit-award winning singer-songwriter Kate Nash introduces her new song Imperfect, and shares her experience of learning to wrestle for Netflix series GLOW.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. This is your chance to hear some of the best bits from across the week from the programme that offers a female perspective on the world. Coming up, we hear from Donna McLean, who discovered her ex-fiancé was an undercover cop, plus award-winning singer-songwriter Kate Nash on her transition from the stage to the wrestling ring.

But first, a woman who writes funny, clever novels about the tough stuff in life that millions want to read. Addiction, breakups, baby loss and depression with women at the heart. I am, of course, talking about Marion Keys. Her new novel, Again Rachel, revisits Rachel Walsh, whose story of recovery from addiction was told in the 1997 novel Rachel's Holiday. 25 years later, Rachel has come full circle and is now working at the rehab facility where she got into recovery all those years ago. Emma spoke to Marion and asked her whether

she'd always planned to write this long-awaited sequel. No, I mean, I've always stood on a platform of no sequels because I just think when I'm finished a book, I've put my characters through enough. That's just for me. I mean, other writers are entirely different. But there are five sisters in the Walsh family.

I'd written about all of them and I missed them. And I was thinking about which one I might kind of like, kind of identify with the most. And I suppose like Rachel is an addict in recovery. And so am I. So we have that thing in common. But I was very worried. I had actually previously tried to write another sequel and it had like crashed and burned terribly. And I thought sequels just aren't for me. But I started it at the start of lockdown and something about kind of that enforced isolation meant I had nowhere to go but like kind of into my head. So, and I was always prepared to fail and then to let it go. But kind of as time went on, I thought, you know, I like this, I believe in it. And I had a story that I was interested in that I hadn't written about previously. And it was just luck, I think, really, that the idea came.

At the heart of it is recovery, which, as you say, you've been through. And perhaps we still don't know enough about addicts, but certainly recovery is also something we don't hear a lot about in detail. Addiction is far more widespread than people realise. But there's so little education about it and there's so much kind of fear about it that if somebody goes to rehab,

their loved ones think it's kind of like, you know, a broken German car going back to Munich to be fixed or Frankfurt or wherever, you know, and then when it kind of goes away, something mysterious happens and then it returns and you can kind of carry on as if nothing had ever gone wrong. Whereas, I mean, recovery is just about everyone in the family learning that something has changed forever. It doesn't have to be terrifying and the, you know, the adjustment doesn't have to be exhausting, but it has to be done. It's like, you know, it's like, you know, a diabetic taking their insulin every day. It's as simple, it's as kind of as mundane as that. And I feel really sorry for the people who love addicts because they can't alter or kind of influence the behavior of the addict, no matter how much they love them.

And then they're given like no education on how to handle them when they're in recovery and it's really quite simple you know that would be my message really that it's it's really nothing to be scared of and anyone who was trying to live a clean or sober life should be should be you know celebrated for it celebrated in a mundane kind of way. And that there really is, it is far more widespread than any of us kind of acknowledge. I think we've always othered addicts, kind of like, because we've regarded addiction as a moral failing or a choice rather than a condition. You know, it's a way of kind of self-medicating pain that and the person, the addict really doesn't have an intellectual choice in it. Do you, were you worried about writing about recovery and addiction from your perspective, how that might make you feel having gone through it?

No, I'm so riddled with shame. You know, it is my kind of base core emotion. But I never felt shame about being an alcoholic, like, which was incredibly healthy. I thought, I didn't ask for this. I don't want it. I want to live in a different way. And by the time I came to write Rachel's Holiday, I had enough perspective on the condition to be able to write from, you know, a dispassionate point of view, you know, so I wasn't writing and thinking, oh, you know, this is awful. How, you know, poor me haven't gone through it. I

just thought this is part of me and I am doing my best to stay sober on a daily basis. So no, it didn't affect me the first time and it didn't affect me writing the sequel either. I mean, it's very rare for me to have a kind of a mature relationship with something in me. But yeah, I never felt shame. And I really, you know, I stand on a message of don't be ashamed, a platform of don't be ashamed, because nobody wants to be that way. I mean, there's a lot of detail in here, though, about the 12 steps, about there's this humour too, but also about how you actually come through it. I mean, there's a lot of detail in here, though, about the 12 steps, about there's this humour too, but also about how you actually come through it. You know, I have lots of other friends who are in recovery. I, you know, I don't overexpose myself to, you know, drinking situations.

And that's fine. Like I can go to parties, like I can do anything I want. So long as I don't drink. So, you know, I will go to parties. I'll have a great time. And then when I've been told the same story for the fourth time by a very excited person, I think, maybe it's time. Maybe it's time to just disappear quietly. And I mean, the funny thing is, I used to feel kind of embarrassed about sloping away early. Now, you know, people don't notice. Everyone on a night

out, they are, you know, they are the star in their own narrative. I mean, you also in this book broach the subject of not having children. And you've also spoken yourself about choosing not to have IVF. And I found this, if you don't mind me bringing it up, I found this really interesting because of the way that you rationalised it, that you talked about being afraid, that you wanted too much, that there was a lot of good in your life at that point. You're being published, you had your partner. You were in love. You didn't want to push it too much. Yeah, I mean, that might be the Catholic guilt. I mean, my life changed very quickly. You know, I was able to stop drinking. I started writing. I got published. I met a lovely man. You know, I had good relationships. I was starting to have a decent opinion of myself

and uh and I was always kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop and sure enough it did and I just yeah what do you mean it did well would not been able to to have children right you know and like you know I did various interventions and and it just it was kind of almost a comfortable realization that aha this is where it stops I don't mean it I mean it was expected it wasn't comfortable I mean I wasn't I wasn't happy about it but there was there's a strong and you know you can't you can take the girl out of Catholic Ireland but like really and truly

that conditioning of like you are worthless and you deserve nothing it goes so deep and as soon as I didn't get this thing that I wanted I thought oh yeah oh go

this is what I've always been told and like I There's a difference isn't there if you don't mind me saying of trying and not getting what you want in this instance, children, and then not trying at all and how you feel about that later because you didn't think you should. had like we'd wanted six I know that's ridiculous like I do know that's ridiculous and that as soon as you have one like you're ready to be hospitalized from exhaustion and like you know the idea of other children is just like you know unthinkable for a while um we grieved it and and we changed our expectations you know and that took that took a long time you you know, and it's fine now in that, like, I have other children in my life.

I have nieces and nephews that I am, you know, borderline obsessed with, like it's a worry. But I have so much fun and I'm still grateful for what I have. And it really doesn't hurt that. It doesn't really hurt at all, really, anymore. The brilliant Marion Keyes there. Now for a new reality TV show, Mega Mansion Hunters. You might have caught episode one already on Channel 4. It follows the lives of a group of luxury estate agents

working at Tyron Ash Real Estate. By using social media to advertise their megabucks properties, the team have sold nearly £300 million worth of luxury pads in 18 months. With the agents earning by commission only and thousands of pounds at stake, competition is rife and the pressure is high. Move over selling sunset. So guys, as you can see, this is an unbelievable property. Of course, you're the

top biller for quarter two. Chloe, you are the top biller for quarter one. We've got Alex breathing down his neck. You've got to find the buyers. £75,000, £80,000 of net commission for you guys to earn. I mean, that is not a bad day in the office. Definitely isn't. So who here is ready to sell this house? Yes, it's me. Come on, let's do it. I caught up with two of the agents, Chloe Cable, who's a senior partner, and Sophie Lee, who's an associate, and I started by asking Chloe what attracted her to the industry. So, I was actually in a state agency

for a couple of months before I joined. I tried uni for a couple of months too, but it just was not for me. And, you know, I kind of went into the luxury end of the market with a mindset of I wanted to do it how they do it in the United States. But unfortunately, there's nothing in the UK or there wasn't anything in the UK that was even close to what we do. My boss, Ty, he gave me a position actually through LinkedIn.

He sent me a message because I kept putting open opportunities and everything like that. And I won't lie, I did ignore it for a good month. However, I decided, you know what, I've got nothing to lose. Let me just have a conversation with him. And it's completely changed my life. And it's probably the best thing I've done. When you said you wanted to sell like they do in the United States, what do you mean? I mean, a stage in the UK is boring. It's outdated. There's no excitement behind it at all. I mean, you look at the US and you've got open houses.

You've got kind of bigger. The houses are almost the amazest of events where you've got people coming for open houses. You're holding these fantastic kind of almost like canopies and we've got champagne out for people. It's just fantastic. And I mean, the use of social media as well is really, really exciting. We get to do fantastic video tours and everything like that as well. Yeah. Tell us about these videos because you have to be quite innovative, don't you? Tell us about some of the ways that you've advertised these houses on social media.

Yeah, I think the biggest key for us with our video tours and the reason why we stand out so much is because we're all our own individuals at the end of the day. And you have to be very creative and you have to sell a lifestyle with every property that you take on. So for me, I like to really step outside the box. You know, I jump in swimming pools in my clothes, like I'll be in a hot tub, I'll do backflips on trampolines. Because the reason why you do this is when people watch the videos, they always remember who the agent is. They will always remember what the property is. And because you've done something different, that's what stands out. It is quite a male-dominated environment though, isn't it?

There's a lot of testosterone. And I imagine a lot of cologne in that room as well. Go on, you're both laughing. Tell me what you're thinking, Chloe. I mean, look, the property industry is always going to be a male-dominated market. However, you don't see many women in the industry. We do face issues with that sometimes.

Not particularly within the business. It's more client-facing. I mean, both me and Sophie and I can imagine every single woman in our business has had situations where a guy has been completely inappropriate and completely saying the wrong things. And it's just something that you shouldn't have to experience but unfortunately we do um we have to be very very careful we're going to houses on our own sometimes we have a lot of methods i mean ties put things in place

which you know we can check in when we're meeting that we have to do like what so we just brought something out so basically what we're doing at the moment is when we go to a meeting you have to do like what we've so just brought something out so basically what we're doing at the moment is when we go to a meeting you have to obviously let whoever know where you're going um especially someone who you're if who's nearby even if it's a family or a friend that might be nearby um and as soon as we get in the meeting we have to check in to say that we're here we're all okay and then we also check in midway through the meeting and um you know if you don't have a midway through check and or you know you haven't sent that text over then that's when alarm bells start raising but have you ever had any have you ever had anything happen no never had anything happen but you know you don't actually know I think you can

never be too prepared for it because there's some awful people out there and I just don't we don't want to take any risks with anything. Because as well as you know showing properties to people I mean amazing properties Sophie you are you're also cold calling but by walking streets aren't you to try and get these properties as listings? Yeah yeah that's correct and there is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of properties that are sitting out there on the market you know they're losing value and their agents are just quite frankly not selling the property so they're they're they're the properties that we try to target and you know by implementing all of our strategies we end up selling these properties in the best time frame and very well and you are all incredibly glamorous the boys and the girls i have to say how important is it for

you to be dressed as sharply as you are i I really do think that, you know, how you present yourself is a massive, massive thing. Just purely because the types of houses that we're going to approach, you know, you're talking like three, four, five plus million pound houses. With anything, if you see someone and they're not taking care of themselves instantly, you'll have kind of a doubt as to whether or not they're actually. I know it sounds awful, but it's just kind of the world we live in. But I feel like if you're presenting yourself well throughout and, you know, you go into this meeting strong, you say the strategy and what you're doing, you know, you don't, I feel like people might have more trust in you

to actually do what you're saying because you look the part. Actually, the whole programme is about money and how much you earn. So can you tell us how much kind of, how much you've made whilst you've been working for them? I don't know exact figures to date but it's setting on over like 130,000 which isn't bad that's not bad it's over what time frame I think almost over like 18 months maybe now and Sophie

very quickly there might be someone listening thinking oh that sounds nice to me what are the skills that you need to be able to do this apart from being able to hustle very hard i think you have to have confidence like confidence is a big factor and you also have to have self-belief in what you're doing you know there's there's a lot of different qualities that we all have as agents and you know ty takes on you know a very very diverse amount of agents you know none of us are the are the same. We don't, we don't, like lots of us don't have any qualifications. You know, as long as you've got like a good attitude and a will to want to succeed,

Thai teaches you the ropes. I didn't have much experience when I came into this job. You know, I sort of learned the whole process as we went along and just goes to show that you can be anyone, no matter what background you come from. As long as you put your mindset to it, you can do it. That was Chloe Cable and Sophie Lee. Now imagine finding out that the love of

your life never existed. Donna McLean first heard about undercover police officers having relationships with female activists in 2010, when Mark Kennedy, an undercover police officer who'd spent years pretending to be an environmental campaigner, was unmasked. She didn't realise until years later she was also a victim of the so-called spy cop scandal. Over 40 years, British police officers were sent undercover to infiltrate left-wing activist groups. So far, more than 30 women have found out the men they fell in love with were actually spying on them. Donna is one of them and is contributing to the government's undercover policing inquiry, which is set to be one of the UK's most delayed and expensive inquiries.

In 2015, a message from an old friend turned Donna's life upside down. She found out a two-year-long relationship she'd had with a locksmith called Carlo was in fact a lie. He was an undercover police officer. His name, his traumatic backstory and his nervous breakdown that ended the relationship, none of it was true. Well, she's written a memoir, Small Town Girl, Love, Lies and the Undercover Police. And Emma started by asking her how she first came to meet Carlo. I met Carlo on an anti-war demonstration. So it was 2002 September and the very first big demonstration that was called after the Iraq war had been announced by Tony Blair. And what was it like, that meeting, and how did you get to know each other? It was kind of

an accidental meeting because I was meant to meet some friends but because the march was so huge I missed them and then I bumped into a friend from work who was with Carlo and they were stewards on the march so they both had the kind of high vids on and that's how they stood out amongst this huge crowd. But I'd actually met Carlo before, nine months previously, when I lived with my ex-boyfriend. But he claimed to not remember. He claimed he never remembered meeting me. So as far as he was concerned, that was our first meeting.

And I knew that I'd met him before, but he didn't remember that at all. And you got close very quickly in your relationship. It was a very immediate intimacy. We spent that day together with our friends. We went for dinner with friends and then we went home together that night. So we were instantly in a relationship. And very quickly, a marriage proposal.

Very quickly. So he moved in after six weeks because he was basically in my flat every day anyway. He was there after work every day. When I got home from work, he was either cooking or we went out. And then we had a party for Hugmanay or New Year's Eve. And he proposed then. So that was three months after we met, almost to the day.

And how happy were you? I was over the moon. I did not believe that after the end of a very long relationship, I was going to meet someone A, so quickly and B, even have that kind of that feeling for someone that they'd be a life partner. I was very, I wasn't, I was surprised, but I also wasn't surprised because it felt incredibly normal and natural. And it just felt like it was meant to be, felt like we were meant to be together. And you, you know, you were walking around doing what couples do,

planning your future, talking about what you'd name your children. We did all of that. We spent a lot of time with other friends. We spent time with my family. He'd met my family twice by the time we got engaged. And we were planning a future into the kind of a decade ahead,

talking about the name of our dog, talking about where we might live in the future. How old were you when he proposed? I was 30. OK. And was there anything about his story, his personal story, that he had told you that would have,

could have made you suspicious? I wasn't remotely suspicious. There was a story about his family that he told me. There was trauma in his background. He told me that pretty much immediately. And I never met his family. But I didn't disbelieve any of it. It felt genuine. It all felt very genuine. And I think the, you know, the surrounding people, my friends, my family, my work colleagues, they felt he was really genuine as well. So there was nothing particularly at that point that made me question it. It was a long engagement. How long were you engaged?

Well, we were together for over two years, so that was the length of the engagement. Because you never did get married? We never did get married, no. What happened when it ended? When it ended? So it ended initially when he moved out and he went to live with a friend who was an activist um and then he appeared back two weeks later and said he wanted to give it another go but didn't want to live with me because he really needed to sort his head out he had a lot of psychological problems at that point and again that related back to stuff that had happened in

childhood so we kind of continued for another six months. He'd moved all his stuff out, so I came home from work one day and he'd basically gone. Two weeks later, he came back. And then six months of continuing to see each other, we maybe stayed together two or three nights a week. And then he ended it one day by sending me an email to work, my work email address, because that was the only email address I had at that point.

It was back in those days. So that was the end of it. And I never saw him again after that. That was just over two years after we'd met. And what was the impact on you? It was a really horrible, horrible time in my life because the six-month period where we'd still been together but not fully together was extraordinarily draining.

And the time prior to that, when his mental health had apparently started to become an issue, that was also exhausting. So I felt like a bit of a carer at that point. But it consumed me. So it got in the way of work and my friendships. And by the time he actually finished the relationship completely, I was in quite a bad place really psychologically and physically and I needed a bit of kind of TLC at that point so I went to live with a friend for

a while because I also was homeless then so we'd been looking for a place to live the place where we were living was coming to an end and we didn't sort anywhere out so when he when he left I was effectively kind of sofa surfing for a while. How did you find out that he wasn't who he says he was or said he was? So 10 years later so we kind of fast forward to July 2015 I got a message out of the blue from a friend from that period of time. I'd moved away since then I'd kind kind of left London, gone to the seaside, had children, and I had no idea. So I wasn't really in touch with people.

But they'd been doing some background work because a lot of stories had come out about spy cops at that point. We knew about Mark Kennedy. We had the whistleblower, Peter Francis, Rob Evans, and Paul Lewis had written their book, Undercover. So a friend got in touch and just sent me a message saying, we need to talk about Carlo.

Can you come and meet us? And from there, it sort of became a huge part of my life. It became almost like being a detective. So I was trying to reconcile the fact that a huge part of my life didn't exist. It was a lie. It was a complete fake, but also find out the truth at the same time. What was the moment, though, that you were told definitively and you believed that he wasn't who he said he was?

When I went to meet the group. So very, very shortly after that first message, I went to meet them. I actually met them in King's Cross, travelled up from the seaside on the train, feeling quite anxious. And they said, we know he's an undercover cop. We're trying to find out his real name, and they said we know he's an undercover cop we're trying to find out his real name but we know categorically he was an undercover cop and they'd been doing quite a lot of work with researchers and with journalists and they'd started working with the BBC as well actually so Newsnight had already started to to look at the

story as well at that point. What was your reaction? I think there was a this thing happens and it's just happened again. I always get these hairs come up on the back of my neck because you suddenly realise you're part of this story and it's not, you know, what you thought wasn't real, what you believed wasn't real, none of it was real. And then you kind of step back and it becomes a little bit disorientating. So I was trying to process it. But also I couldn't quite work out why me?

You know, why was I chosen? Why was I targeted in this way? Because you weren't that active politically. You were going on marches and were friends with people. I was very good friends with a lot of activists. I was a trade union rep at work. I came from a fairly politically active family. But my, you know, my job kind of consumed me, I was really busy with work. And that was one of the, you know, the focus at that point. So I couldn't, I wasn't a professional activist, I wasn't involved to the point where I thought anyone would have any interest in my life whatsoever. And that just didn't make sense. To some, to some degree, it hasn't made sense ever since because no one actually knows why they were targeted because we've never seen the files.

So we don't know what's written down about us. You met others who this had happened to. And how important was that in your fight for justice? In terms of the fight for justice, it was hugely important because that introduced me to the cases that had happened already there was a case a huge case settled just as I kind of found out so that was 2015 the first eight women who discovered that their ex-partners were undercover police officers had won a case against the Met they introduced me to my lawyer Harriet Westridge who is wonderful and who is you know extremely well known for the work she does in fighting state corruption and working for women. And you did win your case? I did yeah

so I settled a case after five and a half years that was last year so that was a civil case and the undercover policing inquiry is still ongoing. It is and I will come back to that. Yeah. And at that point it was a big moment for you as well because you decided to come out, to have your identity public. Yeah. So I'd had a pseudonym for almost five years. I called myself Andrea at that point and when I did interviews or when I wrote articles that was all under that assumed name. But it came to a point for me where it felt like that was an additional weight. It felt quite exhausting. And it felt that I could, for me personally, in order to move forward and in order to kind of bring my life back together, I needed to just be myself. And also, why should you have anything to hide?

I think that's the other thing. It felt like it was a forced double life. I felt like I'd been forced into that situation for no reason because I'd done nothing wrong. And actually, you know, the people who had done something wrong would have to be held to account if I stood up and spoken my own name much more. So that was a massive thing for me. I was a bit anxious about it, obviously, because you can have this privacy. But I think in terms of dropping the anonymity and being myself, it's been hugely, hugely beneficial. You've still got to give evidence to that undercover police inquiry. It has been delayed. Eventually I will give evidence.

2025. It's been delayed because of Covid this time, but it has been taking a long time. It has taken a really long time. So I should have given evidence last summer. That was the original schedule for it, but it will be. Well, it's been described as one of the most complicated, expensive and delayed public inquiries in British legal history. So the hearing, you hope, will be soon? Well, if it's 2025, I will be surprised. I think it will probably delay further. I think

that's been the history of it. And the process itself is incredibly frustrating because it's supposed to be a public inquiry and it's actually very secretive. It does not deliver on the public part or the transparency at all. So I mentioned earlier, I've not seen any files. I know there's files, but I've not seen anything. Nothing to kind of indicate why what happened happened, why I was targeted, what was written down about me. Will Carlo be there? Yes. So when you give evidence, he will be in the room?

Yeah. That's your understanding? Theoretically, that's what's going to happen. What are you going to say to him if you get the chance? I really don't know, Emma. I cannot... I can have scenarios in my head, but I think it will depend on the day, on the time, on how I feel.

I think seeing him will be very odd. It will be incredibly odd. I've not seen him for 20 years. And there's a huge part of me that just thinks, well, I would not believe a word you said to me anyway so if I asked you a question I don't think I could believe the answer so I think that's quite it's quite hard but I think you know we're human and it's incredibly difficult to know how you will react in a situation like that especially when this this whole you know deceptive relationship this whole state-sponsored lie has taken up such a lot of my life now

that it's almost, you know, it's 20 years. If you count the relationship, the aftermath, the finding out, the cases, you know, the law, it's a long time. Has it been hard to not be anxious and to have faith and trust in people? It was hard for a while, but it's not like that anymore I think that's there's been a process it's been a process of recovery there's been a process of healing and I'm really really glad and I'm really grateful that I've gone to back I've gone back to being a very trusting person again because I would hate to have to live in that way I'd hate to have to be suspicious of people. Does that trust extend to the police? No, no, it does not. Donna McLean

there and her book is called Small Town Girl, Love Lies and the Undercover Police. Here's a statement from the Undercover Policing Inquiry. The inquiry is conducting its investigations into undercover policing in broadly chronological order, starting in the 1960s. The inquiry has held two public oral hearings already in November 2020 and April 2021, where it heard evidence from former undercover officers of the Special Demonstration Squad and civilian witnesses affected by their deployments during the period 1968 to 1982. The inquiry's next set of evidence hearings take place in May this year and are open to by their deployments during the period 1968 to 1982. The Inquiry's next set of evidence hearings take place in May this year and are open to the public. At the hearings, the Inquiry will primarily hear

from special demonstration squad managers, active between 1968 and 1982. Still to come on the programme, can you enact more change as an MP or as a Metro Mayor? We discuss with West Yorkshire Mayor Tracey Brabin. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you have to do is subscribe to our daily podcast and it's free. Now, have you ever felt like you wanted to scream at the top of your lungs? Well,

you'd be in good company. Last month, a group of Massachusetts mothers in the US decided to get all their pandemic frustrations off their chests by shouting in a group in the middle of a football field. It's inspired other women around the US to do the same. Could this craze come to the UK? Well, Emma caught up with behaviour and data scientist, Professor Pragya Agarwal, who decided to start screaming with her daughters during lockdown, and psychology lecturer Dr Rebecca Semmons-Wheeler. She began by asking Pragya why she screams. Obviously, it's good for health. We know from research that it releases endorphins and it can make us feel stronger, like tennis players,

when they grunt and scream, they actually have more strength in their shots. But when I started doing this, I was researching and writing for my next book, which is called Hysterical. And I was increasingly getting angry about the historic and the scientific research that showed these expectations that are placed on women that we have to be nice, and we have to be sweet, and we are not told to how to channel this anger and fury and rage. And these are considered negative emotions. And I didn't want my children, I have twin girls, they were three at the time when we started the pandemic.

I didn't want them to grow up with these kind of gendered expectations and stereotypes that they can't scream, that they have to suppress all the emotions. I wanted to show them that all emotions are healthy and that we can actually release them in a way that feels good for us. Where do you do it? Do you go somewhere? Are you in the house? Is anyone nearby? During the lockdown, we were just doing it inside the house or we would sit in the car sometimes and scream quite loud, or we would run around the garden and scream. Sometimes we would run

up and down the stairs and they would usually take their old clothes off and scream while I just ran around with them and then we would flop on the floor laughing and it really helped us bond as well but sometimes we would stand in warrior pose in the middle of the room and raise our arms up to the ceiling or as if to the sky and showing that we are releasing all the stress from our bodies and we're going to scream as loud as we can. Nice. A bit of naked screaming and warrior pose screaming. Do you live with anyone else? Do you have a partner? Yes, my husband. I think he used to go and hide sometimes. He wasn't joining in? My dog and my cat were really scared and terrified.

But they have to get used to it, you know. Pragya, let me bring in Rebecca at this point. It is undoubtedly a release. What do you make of it, though, as a strategy for releasing and as a way of coping? Yeah, I mean, as you said, Pragya, it does help to release emotions. You know, Yana came up with this primal therapy in the 70s. It was primarily designed to help people who'd suffered or experienced childhood trauma.

If we are using it just to release repressed emotions, we kind of do lack a bit of, and I'm sure you're aware of this, lack a bit of subtlety and nuance. So I would kind of maybe liken that to you know blowing open our emotions with dynamite so there's the kind of need to pick through that and unpack and explore what those underlying issues are so what's causing the frustration or the depression and I mean I think what you're saying there is perhaps you need to be looking at why you're needing to scream and and what is the best way to to help yourself and for some it may be a mixture of those things for some it may be better to do to do others but I wonder what why is it that women want to perhaps get together and scream

not all women but some women are finding this uh appealing and and you know of course others will be thinking this is completely not for me and also I don't want to look like the hysterical woman. But do men want to scream as well, Rebecca? Men have these kind of rituals of going to things like football matches. And I'm really aware that not all men do this. But it does tend to be that men have these kind of, you know, my partner goes to the boys' curry club. I don't think they scream in the restaurants. But, you know, they go and they have the, you know delicious food together and and they have this bonding and I think

women do I think you know there's there are circumstances but my my colleague Dr Keely Abbott she's she's a gender expert and she was talking about how women don't have as many of these opportunities to do these bonding rituals together, these rituals where there are sort of more communities. And I think that's especially been difficult during lockdown. So I'm not surprised that there's a kind of need for reclamation of this bonding experience, that sense of getting together and common humanity. Pragya, I think you'll find some of these messages amazing,

as I am as well, just so honest and so brilliant. Instead of screaming, I've got a message here that says, I fling bottles and jars as hard as possible into the bottle bank. Smash, works for me. Another one, I scream when I'm driving. If anyone hears, I just don't care. There's quite a lot of people doing this on their own, Pragya, not needing to be with others, although that's also part of it. Yeah, I think so. I think the release of emotions and be able to have a safe space, a non-judgmental space where you can just let go of all the rage. We talk about not being able to talk about the motherhood rage and all the anxiety and all the stress that you're carrying.

And again, we're coming back on the gendered stereotypes again and again about how women, men can, from a very young age, boys are socialized to be wild and to scream and to be loud, while girls are taught to be quiet and to be nice and to not raise their voices. And yes, things are changing, but I think still those expectations are placed on women quite a lot. And so just to have a safe space where you don't feel judged for raising your voice, for showing your frustration, for not being labelled hysterical. I think people do that on their own. I like that, if I may, I like that the car's coming up again and again. But I do think in your own home, you know, if your home is a safe space, if you're happy with who you're living

with, but you still need to vent. I think space if you're if you're happy with who you're living with but you still need to vent i think there is and if you are living with a man there can be that judgment still you know even if it is your home because of the idea of the crazy lady i mean i just i just watched wuthering heights at the national theater in london last night and there's a lot of screaming in that and you know even watching that you think i wonder how some of the men will be interpreting this well-known, you know, this interpretation of a well-known story and the women in it. Will they be able to access the pain or are they going to be distracted by the idea that, you know, these women are hysterical and not to be not to be trusted as full characters? Yeah, we see that these stereotypes play out in art and literature all the time. The women's nerves are really frail or fragile. And as we keep coming back to the

whole trope of stereotype of hysterical. Yes, I mean, I think there is judgment, especially as I was going through perimenopause, I realized that I was getting really angry. And, and I was constantly hearing you're being very angry these days. And I think it's just that suddenly not meaning to impose these stereotypes, people do that. People do impose these expectations that you have to stay calm. And I'm not saying that screaming is a solution to everything, to all the emotional stress or anxiety or trauma that you might be carrying. And there are structural and systemic issues as well. But I think to be able to reclaim that narrative is really, really important. That was Dr. Rebecca Simmons-Wheeler and Professor Pragya Agrawal.

Well, we had a huge response from you. Turns out there's a lot of screamers who listen to Woman's Hour. Dee said, I've been screaming for decades, ever since a therapist suggested it to me when I had a severe bout of depression. My favourite places to scream are in the car or on the beach at a stormy sea and into a strong wind. It's a fantastic and powerful release and leaves me feeling strong and radiantly alive. Sounds great. And if you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme,

or if indeed you'd like to tell us about your own stories, then feel free to email us by going to our website. Now, last week's levelling up white paper from the government has promised a devolution deal to every part of England that wishes to have one by 2030. But has devolution been good for female political representation? In recent decades, a new range of political positions has opened up from metro mayors and police and crime commissioners to the local council leaders who sit on combined authority boards. However, the candidates have been overwhelmingly male. You may remember a photo of the Greater Manchester devolution deal being signed by 12

men in 2014. So what's changed? To discuss this, Emma was joined by Jemima Olhaski, Chief Executive of the Fawcett Society, Tracey Brabin, Labour Mayor for West Yorkshire, and Jackie Weaver, Chief Officer of the Cheshire Association of Local Councils. She began by asking Jemima about the percentage of women in these new devolved roles. When we look at these new combined authorities, each of those has a board and we've seen some improvement there. So 37% of the people sitting on those boards are now women. That's increased quite a lot from 21% just two years ago. So that's really great to see. But those are overseen and held together by Metro Mayors, this new role of which Tracey is one. And of those, we have nine Metro Mayors and Tracey is the only woman Metro Mayor, the first to be elected since they were first elected in 2017.

And none and no women of colour. So while we've seen this kind of transition of power, we need to think about who that power is kind of going to. And at the moment, a lot of those more senior roles are really dominated by men. Why do you think it's still like that? Is it that it's in its first wave? Of course, it's happening at a time where we hope there's greater equality and greater diversity. Well, I think there was a bit of a missed opportunity when this new kind of devolution was established to think about how we don't replicate the kind of old systems that we know embed and favour male power. And so they weren't created with an eye to embedding equality. I mean, the pipeline for those metro mayors is

often having been a councillor or a member of parliament. So those are both roles that are dominated by men. And there's lots of challenges for women running for election at every stage. So whether that's getting selected by local electorates, often our political positions are the successful candidates are really selected by the local party because it's very unusual for a candidate to change parties in an area. And our research shows that often those still work on kind of really sexist assumptions. So women are still asked questions about how they're going to balance the role with having children, for instance. Once you have to go forward for selection,

the kind of process of fighting for election is really time resource intensive. Those are things that we know women tend to have less of. They've got more caring responsibilities and often have less leisure time and less disposable income and less access to the kind of networks that are really important for accessing political power. And because of the lack of infrastructure to support people to participate. So for instance, when we think about councillors, only a quarter of local authorities have a leave for women who want to take time off from being a councillor for having a baby. So once you're in there, you're kind of in this macho culture where there isn't the support system in place for you to really thrive and succeed. Thanks for that. Let me bring in Tracy. I suppose. Why? Why did you go for it? You were already an MP.

Why did you think I want to do the Metro Mayor thing? Hello. Well, actually, it's because I came into politics late. And whilst you're in opposition, obviously, you work really hard for your community. Batley and Spen was my patch where I was born and raised. But you can't necessarily deliver on the ground. And when devolution came over the line for West Yorkshire, I'm a Yorkshire woman, the idea and the opportunity of being able to absolutely deliver with power and money was very compelling. It's interesting what you're saying, because as you said that, Tracey,

there's a message that's just come in saying, politics in England is very different to politics in Wales and elsewhere. I despair at what's happening in Westminster. The characters it traps, the culture it festers, but not all politics is the same. And I know we'll get onto this a little bit as well, so with Jackie Weaver. This message says, I work for the Welsh government. I'm very proud of what we're doing, making a difference. It's not perfect, but it is

really fulfilling and an inspiring place to work. Is it better being a Metro Mayor than being an MP? Tracey Brogan. Well, I don't want to disrespect my colleagues in Parliament, but I would say it is one of the best jobs in politics and i'm astounded that not more women want to do it because you can bring your own lived experience to the role as well i was able to um uh ask uh allison low who is a woman of color with incredible experience in police and crime to be my deputy mayor. You can work to change the culture in massive organisations like the Combined Authority, 700 colleagues. I can implement at speed swift changes around equality, diversity and inclusivity. It's an incredible role and I would

encourage anybody that's listening to maybe think about it as we have greater devolution across the country. Tracey, the ultimate question, I suppose, is what's best MP, Metro Mayor or Coronation Street? Because you were in that as well. That's a very difficult choice, Emma, and very hard to do. But for each period of my life, being elected was the best job, being a member of Parliament was the best job. Political answer. Five fantastic years and now I'm using all of that experience to deliver for West Yorkshire.

Surely it's got to be about having a drink and the Rovers return. Jackie Weaver, Chief Officer of the Cheshire Association of Local Councillors and she of, of course, Lockdown Zoom Parish Council fame. Good morning. Good morning. What role do you think local politics should play in people's lives if they're not connected to it? And why particularly do you think women should think about it? I know many women have and many women are. We're getting those messages as well. But from your perspective, Jackie?

I think for me, and my interest is only local councils, and by that I mean town and parish councils, it's the hyper-localism. It's the way in which you can get involved with local democracy, local government, but without having to be a political creature, because I don't feel that's for everyone. That said, if you are a political creature and you want to sort of build up those networks that we were talking about earlier, this is a really good way to do it.

And when I've been talking about this kind of hyper-localism, what I'm trying to convey to people is that I feel there's something in politics at that level for everyone. Now, I was a councillor for four years, about 30 years ago. That's when it's changed an awful lot since then. It was not for me. Why? Why was that? I guess I just didn't have the passion for my locality. It's as simple as that. And I think that to be a good counsellor, you know,

as you've heard Tracy talking, with such energy and passion um you need that but at the same time we also need people who if you like work the rule book who who facilitate the energy of people who have have that and for me that was that was my role and I guess even if if neither of those are for you I do feel so strongly that out in our communities, people have a, I would say as far as a duty to witness what is happening in their name. But I think people don't know, if I may, Jackie, I just want to say, I definitely don't want to interrupt you because you are the chair of all chairs. But even the word politics can make people think not to do with me but they also perhaps don't know if they aren't party creatures party political creatures they might think how do i get into it so is there something you'd say as advice oh goodness yes i mean one of the things i've been

trying so hard to do over the last literally last 12 months is really encourage people to go and find out more there is so much information and really accessible information but the bit that's missing is the link that makes you say actually I will go and look at the information. And so what I would have one of the real frustrations for me was when we lost the ability to hold virtual meetings because that really gave people an opportunity literally to witness what was being done in their name by their local town or parish council and we were seeing that there was a I think it was a 20% increase in virtual attendance at council meetings and if we'd have that if we could

continue with that I think we would really make an impact on the number of people that are getting involved because part of the problem is they don't really know what town and parish councils are. That was Jackie Weaver, West Yorkshire Mayor Tracey Brabin and Jemima Olhaski. Now, Brit award-winning singer-songwriter Kate Nash is back with some new music, having also turned her hand to acting in the Netflix series Glow, based on the gorgeous ladies of wrestling from the 1980s. Her new single Imperfect was released yesterday, along with a new video in the theme of Galentine's Day. And here she is telling Emma about the inspiration behind the song.

Imperfect is, it's just kind of an anthem about how we see ourselves and our imperfections and how we like put a lot of pressure on ourselves to be perfect I think more than ever really and whether you're you know whatever age you are as a woman there's so much pressure and um it's about just kind of realizing that imperfections make us unique and you're not you can't be perfect because you're human yesterday on the program I've got to share this with you, we were talking, I don't know if you've seen it, about your fellow musician Anne-Marie at the Brits falling down the stairs right at the beginning.

Oh, I did see that. And then she got straight back up on her feet and we were all sharing, I was sharing, the listeners were sharing, those moments where you've had a public bit of embarrassment and how you've styled it out and imperfection in in some ways the internet in some ways has made it worse but in other ways actually so many people came out to support her and make jokes and it became a meme really quickly and she's over it have you had a moment of imperfection or a public embarrassment? A hundred million times in my career definitely I remember once actually falling over on stage in a festival

somewhere in Europe and my lighting engineer she like caught it right as I was falling and like filled the stage of smoke so it kind of hid me falling down and then I was like clambering back up and I was like yes thank you Paula that sounds like quite fallen over so many times well that sounds like quite a Kate Bush moment coming out of the smoke and uh it was great it was like I just sort of like disappeared into the smoke and then clambered back up on it on as well don't you think since Jennifer Lawrence fell at the Oscars and that was such an iconic moment I think falling over is fine it's great now it's like a it's quite a cute thing to happen yeah if if maybe just you know by a bit more design sometimes the way it shocks people I suppose just keeping with Brits for a

moment uh you know as someone who's spoken out a lot about women's role in the music industry I it's the first you know genderless award for the overall artist of the year Adele took it and when she said she took it she said I understand why the name of this award has changed. But I really love being a woman and being a female artist. I'm really proud of us. What do you make of that? And that decision by the Brits? I think it's interesting, because when I won a Brit award in 2008, I said that female is not a genre. It's almost like you're told that you're limited by being a woman and it becomes like female isn't a genre, you know. But the same, I feel the same sentiments as Adele like I was really proud to win best female I feel proud to be a female musician but I think that the issue is for a lot of women is like

you're put in this box that and you're not just a musician you're a female musician you know you're great for a girl or like I shouldn't walk into a record shop and see female as a genre which I have seen many times I shouldn't walk into like a shop and see magazines listed for men and there'd be like music magazines in that section it's a step in trying to uh recognize a like the changes that need to be made and be like there's a lot of like incredible like moving forward that I think that people have done, especially in the last couple of years of, of having more space to like talk about gender and what it means to different people. Like I completely agree with

Adele, like it's so weird. I think like as a woman, you're constantly like, I'm really proud to be a woman, but then I'm also like, but stop defining me for just, you know what I mean? That doesn't have to be like a bracket that comes with everything I do. It's interesting though what you say about being put in a box as a woman and how you want to be proud of being a woman, but not necessarily curtailed by it in some way. Going into Glow, some people may not have realised Kate Nash was in glow uh the musician the singer uh being an actor but that's actually where you started with your creativity you wanted to be an actor I went to the Brit school and studied theater at the Brit school and I was always like writing

songs and I played piano from a young age um but I think actually doing theater really helped me find my songwriting voice. And I intended to go to drama school or university to study theatre, and I just got rejected from everywhere. And it was during the MySpace era, and I was on MySpace, and I kind of, you know, was working in Nando's and watched all my friends go off to drama school and university. And I felt like I want to do something creative and music felt like this acting felt like you have to get people's permission to do it you know it's so difficult to practice being an actor on your own I mean there are ways to do

that but it's to be part of something you have to be accepted or get a job or get cast you have to be cast yes yeah and as a musician you can go down to your local pub and book a show most likely or find a pub that will take you and that's kind of what I felt I could do and I you know started recording and um and taking my cds down to like my local pub and that's how I started playing shows but yeah it was it was really incredible to then sort of go back to acting through music and I did a pilot actually with Jenji Cohen and Gus Van Sant in 2015 and that didn't get picked up but I got an audition for Glow basically through having been cast in that because the casting director had auditioned me for the you know and how how did you find, you know, getting into a leotard, getting in a wrestling ring with a load of women?

Oh my God, it's like the best fun of my life. So honestly, the best way you could ever get over any kind of heartache or like trauma. I mean, you know, therapy aside, I think that a lot of the stuff that had happened to me in the music industry really hurt me and affected my confidence. Just to catch our listeners up there, you're talking about the fact that you were in a situation where I suppose you got famous and very successful very young. And then it didn't work out with your label. And then you've been trying to reinvent yourself and get your own tunes out there I suppose and be in charge of that since and yeah just you know things that

have happened along the way music industry is like not the it's a very unregulated business and so a lot most people learn the hard way you know about that and I think it affects a lot of people's confidence but yeah stepping into a wrestling room with Chavo Guerrero and 14 female comedians and learning how to use your body in this really powerful way was very healing and really fun and just kind of liberating. And it looked like a liberating experience from watching the series.

That was singer-songwriter Kate Nash there speaking to Emma. That's it for me. Thanks for listening. Emma will be back at 10am on Monday. I'm off for a good scream. I'm Sarah Trelevan. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody, every doula that I know, it was fake, no pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I

unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.