Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Mary Robinson, Huma Abedin, Daddy Issues

Episode Date: November 13, 2021

Mary Robinson, once President of Ireland and now the Chair of The Elders, has been at COP26 in Glasgow all fortnight. She explains why the climate challenge ahead is so emotional.The BBC has withdrawn from a workplace diversity scheme run by Stonewall. On behalf of the BBC, we hear from Rhodri Talfan Davies, who is Director of Nations and sits on the corporation's Executive Committee.Huma Abedin worked as Hillary Clinton’s private top aide and long-time advisor for 25 years. She was also the wife of ex-congressman Anthony Weiner, when a sexting scandal sent him to prison, destroyed their marriage and derailed her boss’ bid to become President in 2016. Emerging from the wings of American political history to take command of her own story, she’s just released her memoir.Daddy Issues. It's an insult now but it started out as a psychological term to explain the importance of father figures. But what exactly are Daddy Issues, how real are they? Katherine Angel, author of ‘Daddy Issues’, and Angharad George-Carey, host of the Daddy Issues podcast joins us.Hollyoaks star Sarah Jayne Dunn is defending the OnlyFans pictures that led to her exit from the long-running soap. Sarah - who has played the character of Mandy Richardson on the show since 1996 - was reportedly axed after refusing to delete her OnlyFans social media account.And people living in Syston, Leicestershire have been treated to an incredible life-size knitted soldier that has appeared at the War Memorial Clock Tower. It is the work of the mysteriously named "Knitting Banksy", an anonymous woman who has been surprising locals with her stunning creations. We hear from Samantha Noble, reporter for BBC East Midlands Online, who's been in contact with Knitting Bansky.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. This is your chance to catch up with some of the must-hear interviews from across the week. Coming up, the knitting Banksy, who is the anonymous woman from Leicestershire leaving her creations around town.

And daddy issues. Is this a term you're familiar with? We discuss the significance of father-daughter relationships. What often happens, especially particularly towards women and daddy issues, is that it was used as something against us and it was sort of shame upon shame upon shame. But first, COP26 has come to an end, but it's been widely criticised that governments

will not make the commitments needed to ensure temperature rises remain below 1.5 degrees Celsius. COP26 President Alok Sharma has said there is a monumental challenge ahead. Well, someone who's been there throughout and is staying till the bitter end is Mary Robinson, who was President of Ireland in the 1990s and now the chair of the group The Elders. When I spoke to her yesterday, I asked Mary why this is something she feels so passionate about. In this world, if you're younger than 60 years old, it's likely that you'll witness the total destabilisation of life as we know it. Crop failures, fracturing economies, hundreds of millions of people fleeing regions because they're made uninhabitable

by either extreme heat or flooding or permanent drought. And if you're under 30 years old, the science tells us that you're all but guaranteed to live through this. That's not tolerable. I mean, how can leaders on their watch justify that? And that was a mixture of anger and frustration but

also utter you know we cannot let this happen now um i have to say you know that 2.4 degrees is um celsius of warming is measuring the commitments that governments make their nationally determined contributions as it's called Some things that happened here at the COP will help. For example, the methane pledge, because if we can get methane down, it's more lethal than carbon, and it will help a little bit. The deforestation pledge, which is more robust this time, with money for indigenous peoples, that will help. A lot of investment commitment.

The private sector has kind of stepped up pretty significantly, those who are here, because they're in crisis mode. The private sector leaders that I meet, the B team of business leaders and others, they're in total crisis mode as I am. Unfortunately, some other leaders are not in crisis mode. And I know you've called those people out. Just tell us who particularly you think isn't in crisis mode and isn't taking this seriously. I think it's been disappointing that China hasn't increased its NDC. I know that China implements when it pledges and sometimes under pledges and over performs, unlike some Western countries where we pledge and then don't perform enough. But Russia, definitely. Brazil, Saudi Arabia. And one of the countries that I particularly target

because it's an industrialized rich country, Australia. You know, Australia is in fossil fuel mode, not crisis mode. It has exactly the same approach as the fossil fuel companies. Oh, we need the fossil fuel for the next indefinite number of years so that we can go green faster. I'm sorry, the world can't tolerate that. So in light of that, would you say that the UK and Ireland are doing enough? Well, you know, the UK has been making pledges that are significant. And Ireland, of course, is part of the EU, where we've committed to reducing by 55% by 2030.

That's a big step up for Ireland. Frankly, we didn't meet our 2020 pledges, and we know now we have to get into a completely different mode. And I'm kind of happy that people in Ireland now realise, take, for example, my hometown of Ballina in County Mayo. Today, because they know it's the last day of COP, they're having a local event. It's involving school children. It's involving a march in the streets of Ballina. And of course,

the river, the River Moy is very important. So they'll be kayaking on the Moy. And I've sent them, you know, a message in advance, because I'm proud that they're doing it locally. And today, I'll be talking to 2,500 schoolgirls here in Glasgow, aged, you know, I think it's 13 or 14, and they're talking about climate justice. So that's what I'm talking about. Make it, you know, personal in everybody's life, know that you can do something, and think about this world that we need to be hurrying towards.

And we know that young people are engaged in this, because as you rightly point out, it's young people who are really going to bear the brunt of this. But do you think that the politicians who are sitting around the table who are negotiating right now, and possibly over the coming days if they don't reach an agreement, do you think they're listening? Are they listening to you? Are they listening to young people? Are they listening to the scientists, I guess, as well?

Some of the young people who have spoken here have really made an impact. On the opening day, Brianna Fruin, who was on my podcast, Mothers of Invention, some time ago, she's a young woman from Samoa, you know, a small Pacific island. And she spoke, you know, with great heart and courage because she said, we are not drowning, really strong speech. And Shia Bastida. I mean, I know a number of these. And, you know, they're not all women. Jerome Foster has been very active here and he's in the Biden White House advising as a young advisor. So some of them are getting, you know, real attention and they have big followings, which is important. So, you know, and of course, Greta Thunberg was here earlier but you know there are an increasing number and I think they are making a difference and they're influencing their parents and they're influencing their community and hopefully they're influencing leaders.

But some people will argue that the last fortnight has been a complete waste of time and money. This COP was all about making sure that we don't go over the 1.5 degrees Celsius and it looks by all accounts that that is going to happen unless something massively changes in the coming hours, I guess, coming days. Also, Glasgow is on track to be one of the most polluting climate summits of its kind. It's worse than the last one in Madrid. When you reflect on this, do you think that COP26 will have been a failure? I don't like the word failure.

The elders bring hope. So I'm going to think through when I see the final result how to message about it. But frankly, you know, the framework to reach agreement on climate is probably the weakest framework we have in the UN system because it's a framework by consent. And we can only move with that framework. We don't have any other framework to actually make it happen. And, you know, Paris was extremely important countries, we got 1.5 degrees mentioned in the goal that we would be well below 2 degrees and work for 1.5.

And then the scientists told us the whole world is to stay at 1.5. I still hope that we will be able to be what I call aligned with 1.5. We won't close the gap here in Glasgow. We know that. We knew that actually before we came. The gap is quite significant that we're on a course for 2.4 degrees Celsius as far as the government commitments are concerned. It'll be helped by some of the pledges here in Glasgow. So it hasn't been a waste of time. There has been a lot of concentration of effort. effort to, you know, and also, you know, people generally are in a crisis mode now because they've seen, you know, fires in California and flooding in the UK, flooding in Germany, fires in Australia, you know, the permafrost up and it's melting in parts of the, you know, near the Arctic. So people just know

this isn't just a crisis of developing countries. And as I mentioned, I've spelt out what a 2.4 degree world would mean. It's not acceptable. It's not allowable. And it must be on the conscience of leaders here if they don't show how we can align. They've said the countries have to come back next year

with more ambition. That's better than the Paris five years. So, you know, I'm sorry that the reference to fossil fuel, the phasing out of coal and getting rid of subsidies on fossil fuel has been weakened and I hope it will be strengthened back. It actually should say, phase out fossil

fuel. Fossil fuel is killing us. Phase out fossil fuel. It should be simple to say, but you know that there's a very big lobby. It's bigger than any country, the lobby of the fossil fuel world here. And I know that you've been critical previously of the pressure that Saudi Arabia appears to be able to exert when it comes to drawing up these agreements. Do you worry about this when the final agreement is presented to everybody? Well, I've known the habit of saudi arabia and i've been

amazed at the influence it has because uh because this is about reducing emissions and they um have got a kind of strong position and they're always there at the table and sometimes the countries that would resist what saudi arabia, like removing human rights, gender equality, reference to the needs of indigenous peoples from texts, including future education on human rights. The ACE programme, they've damaged it because other countries weren't there to stop them. Before I let you go, Mary Robinson,

I want to ask you, at the beginning of this year, you were brought into the controversy surrounding Princess Latifa in Dubai and the allegations that she was being held hostage. Now, as the months have passed, has it become any clearer what the truth is? It doesn't seem clear to the media. I've seen pictures of her in various locations where she seemed happy. I went back to Dubai to a green climate conference deliberately a few weeks ago, and I spoke openly there about human rights. I called for the immediate release of Ahmed Mansour, who has been imprisoned for 10 years. He's a blogger. It's a total encroachment on his freedom of speech. And it caused quite a tension at the conference.

And I did it very deliberately. They abused me. And I was going back to say, I am a human rights person. And I don't like what you've done. And you should release not just Ahmed Mansour, whom I know personally and care a lot about, and he's been tortured in prison, but also other political prisoners that Amnesty has been championing. You know, I felt very badly abused by what happened.

When you say you feel very badly abused... Well, I produced private photographs for proof of life to the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Batchelé, in a private letter, and then they released the photographs. And I was, you know, put in an almost impossible position. And damaging to your reputation. Well, it was at the time, but, you know, life moves on. Mary Robinson there,

former president of Ireland and now chair of the group The Elders. This week, the BBC withdrew from a workplace diversity scheme run by Stonewall. Under the Diversity Champions programme, the corporation paid the LGBTQ plus charity for advice and assessments on creating inclusive workplaces. On Wednesday, the BBC Director General Tim Davey said it was unquestionable that its ongoing participation in the scheme has led some organisations and individuals to consider that the BBC cannot be impartial when reporting on public policy debates where Stonewall is taking an active campaigning role. To discuss this on behalf of the BBC, Emma spoke to Rodri Talvan-Davies, who is Director of Nations and sits on the Corporation's Executive Committee.

Well, I think if you read the press at the moment, listening to the radio, we see some highly polarised debates, particularly in the area of transgender and women's rights. Now, I'm no specialist in this area, but clearly there are those who are campaigning to defend rights based on biological sex, which are sometimes called gender-critical stances, and then there are trans supporters and activists who want a right to self-determination acknowledged.

And these are very, very polarised, very hot debates. We see it taking place across social media. And I think the key thing for the BBC, as a broadcaster utterly committed to impartiality, is that we ensure that audiences have trust in us to come into these very, very complex areas dispassionately and fairly. And I think in the case of the Stonewall's

Diversity Champions programme, as you say, it had led to questions, I think in the case of the Stonewall's Diversity Champions programme, as you say, it had led to questions, I think, about whether the BBC could be truly impartial when reporting on public policy debates like this, given that Stonewall has an active campaigning role in this space. And I think for that reason, we believe it's the right time to step back from that programme. What prompted the decision yesterday on the 10th of November? Well, we've been discussing it over a number of months. I mean, clearly the external debate has been moving. You'll also be aware that, you know, since coming in as Director General, Tim Davey has been focusing on the impartiality of the organisation, really as the foundation stone of everything that we do. We've seen new training on impartiality of the organisation really is the foundation stone of everything that we do.

We've seen new training on impartiality. We've seen new guidelines on how journalists use social media. A whole range, a raft of changes to really ensure that that audience trust is the absolute bedrock of what we do. We know that society is changing. We know about echo chambers. We know about the polarisation of so many policy debates. It's absolutely right that we step up

and we ensure on impartiality we are squeaky clean in terms of our ability to go into subject areas. Well, I think the question, that clearly our involvement in the Diversity Champions programme was raising questions. Well Champions programme was raising questions.

Likewise. Well, it was raising questions about, given Stonewall's campaigning position on some highly contentious and contested areas, whether having an external organisation like Stonewall kicking the tyres on our own inclusion policies was the right framework. And I think we've taken the view. We don't believe our journalism has been compromised, but clearly we think it has raised questions about whether we can act impartially in some of these most contested

areas. And given that, we think the prudent thing is to step back from our involvement in that programme. You don't believe the journalism has been compromised. Do you believe the influence has been too great? Well, we take advice on the involvement of Stonewall in the BBC is primarily around how you create a fully inclusive workplace. And they have a lot of world leading expertise in that area, as do other bodies. So the BBC has always taken advice from a range of bodies about our internal inclusion policies.

Has the BBC consulted other LGBT or LGBTQ plus interest groups on its HR policies? Well, we speak to a range of external experts, sometimes individual experts, sometimes bodies. But you pay Stonewall, the BBC pays Stonewall. In terms of the Diversity Champions programme, there are hundreds of participants in that programme, and you're right, the BBC paid a fee of £2,500 to be part of that programme. But we take advice, as I say, from a whole range of bodies. The key point is that in determining our internal inclusion activity, like all other areas of policy within the BBC,

it is the BBC that makes the final decisions on its policy. But if you don't believe... Sorry, just to make the point, we do not outsource our inclusion policies or our operational policies, our editorial policies to any external body. I'll take that, but why leave then? So if the journalism hasn't been compromised and if you haven't outsourced or the BBC hasn't outsourced its policies why have you left? Because we believe that our involvement in Stonewall's diversity champions programme had raised questions with some groups and with some individuals and in the media about the whether the BBC could be impartial in covering public policy debates. It's about the perception of risk and the BBC... Not anything that's actually happened?

No, we do not believe that our relationship with Stonewall has compromised our journalism. What we do believe... It's not just about journalism. It's also about how the organisation is run. There's two things going on here at the same time. Well, there's two issues. You're absolutely right. There are two issues here. One is about how does the BBC create the most inclusive workplace possible for people of all backgrounds and people identify in many different ways. And clearly, we take external advice on that. And then we take our own view on the right policies for the BBC.

But the absolute foundation stone of everything the BBC does is the trust of the audience for us to enter into areas of debate, contested areas, and to treat those subject areas dispassionately and fairly. Would I, as a presenter of Women's Hour, be allowed to go in front of a campaign video of a women's charity? Well, the BBC is not a campaigning organisation. I wouldn't be though, would I? Well, without... You can answer that question organisation. I wouldn't be, though, would I? Well, without... You can answer that question, though. OK, would I be allowed to go and, I don't know, stand on a platform for Oxfam or Amnesty?

In terms of a charitable activity? Yes, front of video by any of those people I present, Women's Hour and Newsnight, would I be allowed to do that? Well, there's clearly a lot of presenters and a lot of staff who involve themselves in charitable activity. The key question is whether it is a contentious matter of public policy. And so we would need to look at the specificity of the issue. We do have a clear policy, given our commitment to impartiality, that we do not involve ourselves in campaigning organisations on contentious matters of public policy.

You talk also, well, the influence, you say you've taken advice from Stonewall. And of course, another thing to point out at this point is some within the organisation this morning will not be happy about this decision. Something I'll come to in a moment, if I may, and is reflected in Stonewall's comments since the decision. But the BBC isn't just an employer. It's a major cultural force, I'm sure you'd accept, in the UK, around the world, and how we speak and our style guides is influential, and how people talk. Of course, there are other influences, lots of them, not least social media, as you mentioned. But I just wanted to ask a couple of specifics because of that influence and see where we are, if I may. If it was relevant to the story, would the BBC

consider it offensive for a presenter or staff member, when discussing a at the heart of a deeply contentious issue here. This is essentially the debate between defending the rights of people based on biological sex and trans supporters and activists campaigning for the right to self-determination. So clearly we would need to look at the whole context of that piece and determine what was the most appropriate and sensitive way of dealing with it in the piece. But forgive me, I'm not going to get into an editorial policy on that specificity here because clearly that is an area that would need to be handled incredibly sensitively and with appropriate reference to our editorial advisors.

I understand the point about sensitivity, but there will also be people listening to this who think journalism's about facts. There are also facts that don't need to be balanced. So, for instance, I'll give you an example of a story. If we were reporting on the Olympics, and in the report we had to explain that somebody competing in a category,

a female category, was biologically male? Again, if relevant to the story, for instance, it had been history-making, would that be an issue? I think it would be a matter, as so many issues, where we have that editorial discussion prior to broadcast. Again, I'm not going to get into hypotheticals and specific... Can I give you one that's not a hypothetical and couldn't be handled prior to broadcast?

And I'm asking because it's happened on this very programme, on Woman's Hour, and it has happened to people who sit in my chair and myself. There are guests that come on this show who talk about pregnant people. What should I do, live in the moment? Should I get them to clarify themselves because only biological women can be pregnant?

Well, pregnant people isn't isn't inaccurate it's clearly it's clearly one way of framing framing the statement but if you wanted to clarify that with the individual i think that would be your decision as a presenter but i also work for the bbc and i'm asking you as someone who's been put up by the bbc what is the bbc's line on Forgive me, you're asking me in an instant on a live radio programme to make... But you said you've been discussing this for a long time. No, what we've been discussing is whether our involvement... Just to be really clear, what we've been discussing for some months is whether our involvement in the Diversity Champions programme

creates a perception or a risk that we are unable to go into some public policy debate areas impartially because Stonewall is a campaigning role. You are asking me hypothetical editorial questions that require proper full discussion and you're asking me to answer them instantly on a radio programme. And I don't think that's the appropriate way of dealing with what are deeply, deeply complicated matters. With regards to the trans employees, it's believed around 2% or 400 identify as trans. What do you want to say to them just finally this morning with regards to what Stonewall said? And I can read the fuller part of their statement saying ultimately it's LGBTQ plus people who suffer when you pull out of this sort of scheme? Look, the first thing is to recognise that for some staff, this will have been an uncomfortable moment in terms of us stepping away from the programme.

We're utterly committed to creating a working environment which is inclusive, where people feel valued and respected. But we are dealing with twin issues here. We are dealing with wanting to create an inclusive environment where everyone feels welcome, but also creating an environment where we can cover challenging topics impartially. And sometimes those two commitments cause some real tension and discomfort internally.

The key thing is to engage with those staff groups, to discuss our thinking and our reasoning, and to listen to their responses. But we do need to keep a clear difference in terms of our staff groups between their focus on the inclusion of the organisation internally and the right of programme editors and news editors to drive our editorial decision making on air. It's a really crucial distinction. That was Rodri Talvan-Davis, Director of Nations and sits on the Corporation's Executive Committee. Stonewall's full statement is as follows. It's a shame that

the BBC has decided not to renew their membership of our Diversity Champions programme. But as with all membership programmes, organisations come and go depending on what's best for their inclusion journey at the time. We will continue to engage with the BBC on a number of fronts to champion support for LGBTQ plus colleagues and to represent our communities through their reporting. This news comes in the wake of organised attacks on workplace inclusion that extend far beyond the Diversity Champions programme. It is shocking that organisations are being pressured into rolling back support for LGBTQ plus employees. Ultimately, it is LGBTQ plus people who suffer.

Now, Hummer Aberdeen has worked for Hillary Clinton since she was 20, becoming her private top aide and senior adviser for 25 years. She's just released a memoir, Both and A Life in Many Worlds. Hummer was also the wife of a popular ex-Congressman, Anthony Weiner, when a sexting scandal sent him to prison and very publicly destroyed their marriage. It had a damaging impact on her boss's bid to try and make history by becoming the first female US president in 2016. Hummer chose to stand by her husband after discovering his earliest infidelities in 2011, but then finally filed for divorce in 2017. When the story of his first sexual scandal broke, Hummer was working in the State Department, a newlywed, deeply in love, and 12 weeks pregnant.

Emma spoke to her earlier this week. What happened in our circumstance is that, you know, there's a tremendous amount of shame that comes with, you know, being that couple. And I write about kind of our alienation, the feeling, you know, going to a food bank to volunteer our services, then asked not to come back. So for the circumstances kind of led us to be in a bunker together, even though we were surrounded by family that was so supportive and we had so many friends, no one really knew what to do. We didn't know what to do. You know, we don't, we didn't even know who to call when it first happened. We found a therapist. We started going into therapy. I didn't really understand the, you know understand the process. We became a little bubble

as I was carrying his child, as we came into the world. We didn't know who to trust. We didn't know who to turn to. And with that, yeah, you do find that you're kind of stuck in this place and space with this person. Surely your boss, Hillary Clinton, who's more to you than a boss and you're more to her than an employee, she said you're like a second daughter. Surely with the experiences she had of the Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton situation, surely she could give you a lot of advice and support. You know, she always, in every challenging moment I had in my life, always approached it as a friend first and as a boss second. And she always, she was consistent. She always said, I'm here for you. I support you

no matter what. Just recognize, you know, I write the scene in the book where we fly to Abu Dhabi, an official secretary of state trip, and she flies my family in, my mother from Saudi Arabia, my brother from London, so that they could be with me. I think everybody who loved me was sort of hurting for me and said, we're here for you. But in terms of like the next action, how to go get mental health, you know, you're doing that on your own. You're not, it was very, very painful. Just even conversations with my family were painful. I talk about Anthony's press conference and I go to my room, a hotel room, and I didn't think anyone wanted to even be around. What do you say in circumstances like this when you're the outsider?

It's hard. I don't, you know, I don't question how people reacted. I think people were heartbroken and shocked and just wanted to show they loved me. I think that word shame is something we should also just pause on because it's, it buries very deeply into people and can corrode how they feel about themselves, even if they haven't done anything wrong. It's, it's so powerful and it, you know, it can, it can shake people to their very core and make them think they, they can't continue sometimes, you know, it's, it's that powerful. How did shame not destroy you? I'm a Muslim, American Muslim. And then my faith was core to my kind of re rebalancing. I always knew, you know, I always knew it was going to be okay. And I go back to,

you know, my father telling me when I was a little girl, your eyes are at the front of your head for a reason. It's a face forward. And so I really tried in every, you know, I always believed two things. I always believed somebody else had it worse than me. I still found gratitude every day. At least I have this. I have my health. I have a job. I have my family. Every day, I recognized that I was still privileged. It was hard. And there were these horrible things. I was still privileged. And I had to fight the shame. And then I would just, you know, Muslim prayer is essentially a meditation. You step back from the world and you reflect. And so to have both those things, I think really helped me get through it. not familiar with your story, but you had thought it was over. And actually, in terms of what your husband was doing, your former husband, it was escalating and it was to get worse. In terms of

the allegation then that comes forward with regards to he'd been sexting a 15-year-old girl, which was a federal offence. But the first sort of part of this was that I know he he called you and he told you that the New York Post was publishing a photo of him and your son Jordan and and I understand you believed it would be perhaps a paparazzi photo of them in the in the park it wasn't and it was a photo of him showing himself aroused in bed next to your your sleeping toddler son and he sent it to a woman on the internet. How did you find that out? And what was that like? I had experienced betrayal, but this was, you know, I'd brought shame and we, you know,

he'd done all these things and this was violence in my mind. And if there was anything that was unacceptable in a marriage, this was it. I was enraged and obviously I didn't have time to be enraged because, you know, we had an investigation that started right away and it was the closing days of the campaign, the last two months of the Hillary Clinton campaign. It's only now in hindsight, when I learned in therapy, you know, when people are in the midst of addictive behavior, they do things that they would never do in their conscious, proper mind. I just didn't understand that then I didn't, you know, I would get mad and say, stop. And we'd continue going to therapy, but that was, you know, that was his low

and he, and there were consequences and he had to pay the price for that, for that behavior. And he did. The alleged victim at this point, we should say he then was jailed for this, was underage. The FBI seized your former husband's laptop and they found emails on it from yourself to Hillary Clinton containing classified information. And as I say, followers of American politics or not will remember Comey announcing he was reopening the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails and whether or not, will remember Comey announcing he was reopening the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails and whether or not she used a private server for official communications. The election, to remind again, was less than two weeks away.

Reporters were heard questioning you aloud, you know, do you blame yourself, Huma? You were, for some at least, questioned or thought of to have harmed her in that bid, as you say, of trying to change the world. Where have you come out on that? Well, that moment took me to a very low place. I did carry a lot of guilt and my bafflement. I mean, this, you know, this close to an election in our country, it is not typical for the FBI to make a very large newsmaking announcement. It broke with precedent. And one of the reasons I was so shocked by it is I had, you know, volunteered to be helpful in this investigation when it had first

started. I wanted to do the right thing. I wanted, I write a scene in the book, the beginning of the campaign when the investigation was first announced that I read an article in the newspaper saying that I had been asked to provide whatever material that I had in my possession and no one had contacted me. So I reached out. So to be part of this process, which, you know, was stressful in itself, and then to get this shocking news was really, you know, surprising. And I just want to correct one thing. There was no classified, it was not possible to share classified emails, you know, in our, in any of our emails. All of our emails were unclassified um but uh i i went to you know my lowest point i i carried that guilt i i felt blamed from outsiders not from my boss or my staff really and i oh never never never once did she i was gonna think that might be a slightly awkward moment with one's boss two weeks from the biggest office in the world she knew this was not about me no no of course but but i was it was there was a moment there right yeah there was

a moment there on that airplane when i realized you know the whole moment you know uh she wrote about in her book too or i just just completely broke down when they said it was, it was the laptop on the plane. And I said, it can't be this. I thought I had handled this. I thought I had fixed this. I thought we were okay. Um, and I just broke down crying and she came over and, you know, gave me a hug and what we were on a plane full of reporters and staff and it's the closing days of the campaign. And she walks me to the bathroom to, you know, fix myself up. And no, like I said, she always approached it as a friend, not as a boss. I think, you know, when your personal life hits your professional life,

it's very tough on many levels. But I suppose this is another example in your life, certainly, where this wasn't you, but it was impacting. It wasn't your actions, which is, I can't imagine, again, the anger and the upset with that, being again defined by, and in this case, again, a man and his actions. Yeah. I mean, it's one of the many reasons why I did choose to share my story, because, you know, I want to reclaim. I want to reclaim what that history was, how I felt. And, you know, I feel an unburdening, frankly. I really I really do. And I have to live with it. I know I have to live with this the rest of my life. Because it also must have been frustrating to see women publicly talking, whether it's, you know, people in jobs like mine in America, perhaps more commentators or feminists saying, why is she staying with him? And you at that point, you didn't need to, you didn't need to ever.

But it must have been frustrating not to be saying anything or be able to say anything or want to say anything at that point? Well, I always wanted to, you know, I go back to the point that I make, like from the 2021 perspective, everything looks different in the moment. It was just, you know, trying to get through survival. And I write about that break in my marriage in 2013, when the, you know, the, after the press conference where I'm really learning the truth and everything starts disintegrating. And I wanted to just make myself small. I wanted to disappear. I didn't, you know, I'd become, as I write in the book of the woman with the scarlet letter on her chest, because it felt like I had gone from being victim to accomplice. And I, you know, there were so many reasons. It was mostly my son. It was convenient. There were

financial reasons. And I think maybe a lot of women who go through separations or divorce have to deal with this also, is that on the one hand, I thought I had the perfect husband. He did everything. I mean, I would go to conversations with my girlfriends, Emma, and they could not relate. They would say, my husband doesn't do the laundry. My husband doesn't do the groceries. And on everything else, Anthony was the perfect partner. I would, I write how I'd come home, you know, after a long trip and my dry cleaning would be there and there would be hot, a hot dinner at the table. And my son's doctor's appointments were taken care of. I didn't have that burden that a lot of working mothers that have. So I, it was this weird sort of, it was a very different than maybe a typical environment

in that he really was an equal partner in every way, except for in this very devastating singular way. And I wish I understood, you know, we went through this very, very difficult process after the election when I really got to my lowest point. And for me, it was the only way through. It was to understand the behavior, to process it, to know the full truth and to move on with my life. I didn't think it'd be possible to not, you know, what I found is that the anger and the bitterness and the why, why, why, why,

why the rage was sort of slowly eating me up inside. It was slowly killing me that I needed a better understanding and, and, uh, you know, to really experience what my parents taught me growing up, like this notion of radical empathy, which I think is something Hillary has too. That is how I came to the other side. That is how I'm sitting with you today. That is how I'm doing the thing that scares me the most, which is this, having this, you know, dialogue with you, just being open and, you know, and telling my truth. Huma Abedin, and her book is called Both and A Life in Many Worlds. Still to come on the programme, the Hollyoaks star Sarah-Jane Dunn on why she's standing by her decision to post photos on the controversial website OnlyFans and what changes this has made to her career.

And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live. Just subscribe to the daily podcast on BBC Sounds. It's absolutely free. Daddy issues. Now, is that a phrase that makes you squirm? Maybe you consider yourself to be someone with daddy issues or maybe someone you know does.

Either way, what started out as a psychological concept has become an easy jab at women across pop culture. But how real are daddy issues and what can they teach us about the relationship between fathers and daughters? Well, to discuss this, I was joined by two women who both have work called Daddy Issues. Catherine Angel is an author and Anne Harrod, George Carey, is the host of Daddy Issues podcast. I started by asking Anne Harrod if Daddy Issues can ever be reclaimed as a positive term. Yes, I mean, absolutely. That was one of the reasons why I started Daddy Issues podcast, because I realised a bit like sort of slut shaming, what often happens, especially particularly towards women and daddy issues, is that it was used as something against us.

And it was sort of shame upon shame upon shame. And so I thought, well, actually, daddy issues is a very, very real thing. And it's a very real thing for all genders. And actually to try and understand why it exists and um you know to normalize that conversation and for everybody rather than to continue just to sort of categorize someone who's already had whatever trauma she in terms of sort of thinking about going towards women but she has had or anyone has had and then to sort of continue to shame them for it. So I, yes, that was one of the things I wanted to start to normalize the conversation and make it a positive thing where you can begin to understand that if you understand

what your trauma is around your father, you know, obviously honed into this, but whatever trauma you've had, whatever obstacle that is, you can actually use it to benefit you rather than it sort of continue to feel like it's a negative and something that's going to hold you back in life and Catherine presumably this can seep into all kinds of relationships it's not just a a sexual relationship or a partner relationship it could be a relationship with children for example or your peers family members yeah I think one of the things that's interesting about the phrase daddy issues is that it does sometimes provoke a kind of horror in people in thinking about this idea that, you know, our relationship with our parents and our relationship to them, you know, when we were

infants, when we were children, can affect the rest of our life and has traces in all our relationships. I think people can find that really discomforting because thinking about the kind of emergence of the, you know, a child's sexuality, you know, the teenager turning into an adult can be really unsettling for people. But I think, you know, I totally agree with the previous speaker that this it's a really productive thing to think about, the traces of these profound, formative relationships in the rest of our life, and thinking too about how we might have to, you know, individuate, how we might have to separate from our parents in order to become the adults that we are. And I think traditionally, you know, certainly within psychoanalytic thought and the kind of idea of the Oedipus myth, individuation and kind of coming into being as an adult has often been focused around the father intervening in the sort of very merged absorption between the mother and the infant. work that's been done by novelists like Sarah Moss and Sophie McIntosh and filmmakers like

Sally Potter and Deborah Granik in really putting to the fore the perspectives of the daughter and the daughter having to reckon with failures of parenting with ways in which their own fathers have been driven mad by grief by war by the constraints of masculinity itself. And individuation having to happen through a kind of empathy, but also disillusionment with the father. And I think that's a really fruitful place for us to think culturally. Maybe that's where we're at. GB in Somerset has got in touch on 84844 on the text saying, while daddy issues may be more prevalent with daughters,

I believe it's widespread with sons and it's a shame this is often overlooked. And, Hara, do you agree with that? Yes, absolutely. I mean, most, I would say it was never really planned, the sort of genders that would come onto my podcast. But oddly enough, well, I guess in the less cliche way, it's actually much more, I've got more men than women onto the podcast and I think that's because again you know throwing the term at women is just a sort of another way of repressing and shaming and etc women but actually what it does is it does the same thing for men because I think it it disallows you know a problem with the father to be given to a man so it's like well actually this is a

woman's problem and let's just like continue to shame them for it when actually a lot of men have their own very real and very traumatic daddy issues which will then manifest in all sorts of negative ways throughout their lives as well but in a different way often to women if I was to generalize but um yes no it's it's uh it's absolutely an every gender problem. And I think it's something that's so under-discussed because it is so normalised. Anne Harrod, George Carey there, and also the author, Catherine Angel. Now, lots of you have got in touch to share your experiences with daddy issues. Karen emailed to say, my late father was an old school gentleman, chivalrous and a ladies' man. As a child, I never

heard him swear. And I considered having, for example, my coat offered or my wine glass filled for me and a general degree of good manners towards women, a normal way of life. As a result of this, when my husband falls short of this, I either feel ignored or uncared for, even unloved. I even believe I use it as a measure of how much he loves me. I've often referred to my father in the heat of the moment. Another listener called Sarah got in touch. She said, my father was an alcoholic and flew into awful tempers. I'm sure this has resulted in my own evasion of arguments.

And yes, I did marry someone with a temper like my dad's. Now, the Hollyoaks star Sarah Jane Dunn is defending provocative pictures posted on the OnlyFans website that led to her exit from the long-running soap. Sarah, who has played the character of Mandy Richardson on the show since 1996, was axed after refusing to delete her OnlyFans account. The platform is often used as a means for people to sell pornographic photos and video content to paying subscribers. Well, Emma started by asking Sarah to describe the photos that she's been posting. Yeah, I can describe it exactly because it's exactly the same type of content

I was previously putting onto my Instagram account and my Twitter. So my really public forum and all I've simply done is, is move the more, I guess you described it as more provocative, but the sort of lingerie bikini shoots that I have done all of my career, I've done all of my life through my job. I've just moved those images onto a subscription platform now. I wanted to make. So you've not changed the content.

It's you're still clothed, but in lingerie. Yes. Radio is about pictures of the mind. So I'm just trying to describe it. Also, if people don't follow you, they may not know. And were you aware that this could cause problems with Hollyoaks? No, not really. Because like I say, the only thing I've done is move this content from

one platform to another and actually what my intention for doing so was to keep my Instagram as a as a more sort of family friendly user friendly platform where you know I can be more wholesome I guess and my the majority of my followers on Instagram are 75% women. And actually, I get tons of support from women when I do put images up in bikinis because people are motivated, people are inspired. I train hard. I'm really into my fitness. I'm really into healthy eating.

I'm really into women's support. Just because I want to make sure we get through enough here, but that's not going to be, of course, what OnlyFans is about, is it? Because that's for people to look at you in a different way. Well, actually, OnlyFans, I think this is the misconception of OnlyFans. It's an over-18s platform because actually there is explicit content on there. There is pornography, as you said, but actually it's a content creators platform. You can use it for whatever you like.

There are musicians on there. There are people doing recipes on there you like there are musicians on there there are people doing recipes on there there are yoga teachers on there and it just gets this association with the explicit content because that is available too but actually that is not what i'm doing so that's also why there's been some controversy about it not just to do with you i mean if i was just looking through this morning there has been discussion around it, for instance, because, you know, we've seen that there are underage accounts. There's two BBC investigations, one in 2020, one earlier this year. Several accounts were found to have been made by underage teens. I mean, do you have concerns about

being on the platform in that regard? Well, I found the platform really, really difficult to actually set up my own account so I'm unaware of these investigations but what I do know is that it was difficult for me to get on as a 40 year old woman and you've got to provide ID there's facial recognition and even then I got rejected for the first couple of times and so I don't know about that but from my experience this is me about me making my choices and what I want to do with my body and not forcing anybody to swap over to a subscription site. For me, this was about taking back control of my image and what content I create.

And making money, I suppose. Yeah, of course. That's obviously part of it. And why not? Why shouldn't I capitalise on my own image and my own image rights? And let's come to that in just a moment because, of course, some will remember the Hollyoaks calendar, right?

Correct. Yeah. Years and years ago. Which, yes, I mean, we should say, is no longer a thing. And we've got a statement with regards to that decision was taken to stop these calendars taken in 2013. Prior to 2013, Hollyoaks cast who wanted to participate

in the calendar shoot were able to do so on commercial terms there it was um a contractually um a contractual thing I would say um it wasn't really an optional thing um and so this is what I mean I've been doing these these type of shoots for years and years but with no control over what I'm wearing the location the photographer the choice of the image at the end any editing there's photos out there of me that look nothing like me um I am very much into not editing pictures so that you know again I can be that motivation for women I must add as well that you know a lot of women have followed me over to my only fans account because again it's it's for fans it's for that interaction and it's actually a safer space for me you know if on the on something like Instagram I get sent direct messages and there's unsolicited pictures on there and you

can block you can report that account Instagram don't do anything about it that person will set up another account and it happens time and time again whereas what I've found with OnlyFans is if I report someone block them because they've had to sign up with ID, they get shut down immediately. So it feels like a safe space for me. If someone sends me an image, it's pixelated. So it would be my choice to open that image if I wanted to. Channel 4, a statement made by the makers of Hollyoaks. Hollyoaks is a youth facing drama with many young viewers who follow our cast very closely, both in the soap and outside of it. We take our responsibility to our young audience

very seriously and therefore the show does not allow any Hollyoaks cast members to be active on certain 18-plus websites. We had hoped we could reach a resolution with Sarah that would allow her to remain in her role as Mandy, but we respect her choice to continue to produce content on OnlyFans. What do you make of that?

Well, see, this is the thing. It wasn't my choice to leave the show. The show, yeah, is a youth-facing drama. But again, these, like I say, these photo shoots, I've been part of for many years of my career, or most of my career. A lot of them have been through the show. The show covers a lot of controversial issues and topics. And, you know, I can't speak too much about it because of the situation that I'm in with the show right now. But what I would say is, you know, take to social media and just look at some of the sort of

comments. Do you feel morally judged by Hollyoaks? I do feel judged, yeah, definitely. And I feel disappointed and I feel like I've been reprimanded for something that I've been contractually bound to do by the show for, like I say, for most of my career. And I'm actually not doing anything different to what I've been doing for as long as Instagram has been a thing. I've just, like I say, moved my content personally onto what I feel is a safer platform because actually the younger audience can't follow me over there.

That's the actress Sarah Jane Dunn. Well, a spokesperson from OnlyFans told us OnlyFans is an inclusive social media platform welcoming creators from all genres. OnlyFans supports the creator economy and allows creators to develop authentic relationships with their fans whilst empowering them to maximise control and monetise their content. For individuals like Sarah-Jane Dunn, this gives them unparalleled creative control over their content. Now if you live in Syston in Leicestershire, you may well have come across an incredible and it is incredible life-size knitted soldier that has appeared at the War Memorial clock tower. Created to honour Remembrance Day earlier this week it is the work of the

mysteriously named Knitting Banksy, an anonymous woman who has been surprising locals with her stunning creations. Well someone who has been surprising locals with her stunning creations. Well, someone who has been in contact with Knitting Banksy is reporter for BBC East Midlands Online, Samantha Noble. And Emma spoke to Samantha to find out more. Well, I don't know a lot because she likes to keep her identity a mystery. I think she's read comments before from locals saying that they want it to remain that way. And they, you know, it's all part of the charm.

But what I do know is that she has been knitting since she was, since childhood. And she spoke to me about some Power Rangers set that she knitted for her children one Christmas that they absolutely loved. And she lives in Scythes and in Leicestershire and has been there for the best part of her life, which she said is the last 30 years. I love this. Is she, in the text messages, is she finding this odd, this attention, or is she enjoying it? I think, yeah, I think she just, yes, she's enjoying it.

She just, I don't think she can believe how how what an amazing reaction she's had and how yeah how it's gone all over the world I think all these images of her amazing works have been shared everywhere I think she's and do we do we know if she will ever reveal who she is do we do we know if this is a bit of a thing for now and then maybe there'll be a moment? No, I think she wants to remain a mystery. Just like Banksy, who she's taken her name from, I don't think she ever wants to reveal who she is. And her process of creating this particular soldier,

I mean, it's an incredible thing. Have you actually seen it in real life? I haven't. I've seen the photograph,. Yes, I will go along and see it. I mean, it's breathtaking, isn't it? I know you mentioned it earlier, but the detail, his helmet and the knitted backpack on the back and the detail in the shoes and the pockets and his posture as well,

how he's sort of leaning towards the war memorial. It's just remarkable. Do we know if she puts them in herself? And does she come in the night or do we know anything about that? She does do it herself. Yes, overnight in the darkness. This is so great. I mean, does she wear a balaclava and actually we've

got a message here from katherine saying how do we know knitting banksy is a woman she did tell me that i asked her um i think she was reluctant to say but she did confirm that she she is a woman okay um and she goes and does this herself in terms of putting them out. Yes, puts them out overnight. I think the odd people have saw her, but probably didn't realise what she was doing. She's just carrying a giant soldier under her arm and just casually putting it down. I mean, it's remarkable. These things have managed to stay in place. Nowadays, things get moved. Yes.

Yes, it is. And I think she has them all collected at home. Some of them have been sold to charity as well. Have they? OK. And I mean, and also she's got quite a few well-known fans as well, hasn't she? Celebrities have been clamouring a bit. She does. So she did one postbox topper, which was of Stephen Graham's characters. And she went and put that one on a postbox in Ibstock where Stephen Graham is from.

And we're talking about the line of duty actor here in case people aren't sure. Yes, yes. And he took a photograph of himself next to his postbox topper with the giving the thumbs up and shared it on social media. And she said she was grinning from ear to ear

when she saw that and she still is. And as well as Stephen Graham, actually, so she did another post box-office she did was for the Queen's birthday. And it was of the Queen in her walking outfit with her headscarf on and a coat and walking her corgis. And at the bottom of the to it said happy birthday and a photograph of this was sent to the Queen from by Fiona Henry who's the editor of the

Sison Town News community newspaper and Fiona got a reply from Buckingham Palace from one of the Queen's ladies in waiting uh thanking her for her work so we think the Queen herself may have seen uh this topper love that love it I just think this is brilliant it's a great atmosphere around this story locally and how people are feeling about it oh definitely um like every time anything anything is on our Facebook page or on the reaction is incredible. And I think it really does boost community spirit. And that's what Sison Nitten-Banksy said to me. One of the reasons that she does it is to cheer people up, boost community spirit and people love it. And in the words of Fiona from Sison Town News, who I've already mentioned, she called her a local treasure. And her work really is impressive. That was the reporter, Samantha Noble.

Now, that's all from me today. Join Emma live on Monday morning where she will be discussing, amongst other things, pocoprisis. That is the anxiety and inability to poo in public. Yeah, only on Woman's Hour. Have a wonderful Saturday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Goodbye. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.